What's the method for the selection? [criteria]
Printable View
What's the method for the selection? [criteria]
Play in the MVFC.
Strength of schedule. Some also might argue that a few bubble teams make the cut to maximize the number of games where the visiting team is less than 400 miles away so the NCAA doesn't have to charter flights and pay for hotel rooms. :)
I figured body of work and location (saving $$$) would be @ the forefront during consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead
1, Win at least seven games in the Valley or the CAA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Panther88
2. Win at least eight games in the Southern or Big Sky.
3. Win at least nine in all other leagues except the Pioneer and,
4. Doesn't play in the Ivy or SWAC.
Alrighty now. Biased much?Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW HOYA
Reputation.
Win.
SWAG (stupid wild arse guess).
The Big Sky has received 7-4 at large bids before (probably Southern too) and every conference including the Valley has 7-4 teams sit at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW HOYA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catsfan90
This
16-3 FCS OOC and we are going to get 3 teams in. Why? Because we beat up on each other enough so there aren't 5 teams to qualify.Quote:
Originally Posted by eiu1999
Thinking UNI will be the 4th if they win out.Quote:
Originally Posted by centennial
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall D
Agree completely.... xnodx xthumbsupxQuote:
Originally Posted by DFW HOYA
they'll definitely be in if they win out. But with the way that the MVFC tends to be (and the way UNI FB has been the past few years), they're likely to lose to Indiana State (or SIU, or it wouldn't even shock me if they laid an egg at Missouri State and lost)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehigh'98
A 6 win MVFC team is still better than a third(if not more) of the teams in the playoffs. Not sure they get in however.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJ79
Although people will argue about the criteria, and someone will come by shortly and post a link to the NCAA site, reputation is probably one of the more important factors (that doesn't show up on the NCAA list). Teams with recent playoff exposure tend to beat out other teams.
There is always at least one WTF? pick every year.
Coastal Carolina didn't think so...Quote:
Originally Posted by centennial
But that's not the point. Are they better than the top 1 or two teams in the playoffs? No. The other conferences for the most part, you don't know. The playoffs are about deciding a national champion on the field. There aren't enough interconference matchups to truly determine whether conference champion A is better than conference champion B. Therefore, you need to include the conference champs from every league (at least those that are willing to come). At large bids are there for those instances where a dominant team slips up in conference play or looses a tie breaker for the auto bid. The rest are there for window dressing. All of this crying and acting like a playoff appearance is a reward for being better than some is a joke. I honestly wish we could go back to 16 teams and have the conference champ from each conference seeded along with a few other at large teams who meet the WTF criteria above. Then we'd be back to determining a national champion as our primary goal. If you want a reward for a winning season, then go to FBS and look for the invite to the nobody cares bowl played on December 19th in Calgary.Quote:
Originally Posted by centennial
I think back to the days when it was 16 teams and Ga Southern, App, and Furman all got in. They finished 1, 2, & 3 in the SoCon. Any of the 3 had a viable chance to win it all. I think 24 is too much and 16 isn't enough. Anyone can win or lose once the playoffs start.
Nova in 2010 wasn't a dominant team. They squeezed into the playoffs, went on a run, and almost played for a title. JMU did it a few years before that and won a title. A team like UNI could do that this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by PAllen
So we should include any team that might go on a run and almost play for the title? You'd need a field of 64 teams if that's your criteria. My point is, if you don't come close to winning your own conference, how can you claim to be the best in the country? Is the 5th best team in the Valley better than the Pioneer League Champ? Most seasons, probably. But that's the wrong question. The question is, is the best team in the Valley better than the Pioneer League Champ? Again, probably, but you don't know until you play the game. Come playoff time, we've already seen what the 5th place team in the Valley can do against the top 4 teams in conference. By definition, they were not as good. Could they get lucky and win a few games in the playoffs? Sure, but that's not the point. The point is to ensure that the top team in the nation is playing in the championship game. You can't ensure that without including the best team from each conference. Some years (most from some conferences) a second or third place conference team has an argument for being the better team than their league champ. That should be the at large criteria, not "hey, we had a winning record."Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
And at the time, they were three dominant teams in FCS and those missing the autobid were doing so with one conference loss or losing out on the tie breaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSU18
In 2005 UNI was sitting at 4-3 with a D-II win. They went on to win 4 straight (7-3 in against D-I teams, 5-2 in conference play), and won 3 straight playoff games to get to the championship which they lost by 5 on a fumble return.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
I knew there was another recent one. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by PantherRob82
The playoffs aren't watered down by 4th place CAA and MVFC teams. They are watered down by AQ's from weaker conferences who won't step up their programs.
The Big South and Southland have stepped up their game to relevance. I hope the others can too.
SMFH, and 2003, who should have been in the title game? I mean Colgate didn't play anybody but Ivies, Patriot and a a very weak transitional I-A team. If they had played in the CAA, they wouldn't have finished in the top half. Or so you experts said at the time. You still haven't answered the pertinent question: How does a fourth place MVFC team lay claim to being the best team in the country? Not one of, but THE best.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
Oh, and the Southland has been relevant for quite a while.
One example from 13 years ago and I'm not suggesting AQ's from a weak conference shouldn't be in the tourney. My point is that the weaker conference champs diminish the quality of the field far more than the bubble teams from power conferences. It isn't really debatable so I reject your premise. FTR, I like the current field size and think there's room for both.Quote:
Originally Posted by PAllen
A 4th place MVFC bubble team lays claim by going on a run in the playoffs like the other examples cited.
The Southland suddenly became relevant again in 2011. Before that it was bleak for quite some time and they were clearly not a power conference. At this point, I think they've more than pulled even with the Southern and perhaps even the CAA and BSC.
So you're just saying that the Big Sky and MVFC just play their own championship and nobody else need apply to your precious, beautiful tournament of directional state schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
Perhaps even the CAA and BSC? As an arguable opinion, possibly. And when talking about the top 2-3 teams maybe. But also, the talk of SOCON decline keeps getting unwarranted traction as your comparison narrative implies. Sure, the top of the SOCON is not as high due to our late departures, but the SOCON depth is still there and is still as good as any, except the Chosen Ones of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
For an arguably objective rating, the computers say no to your comparison when looking at the entire depth of conferences. And even while the top of the CAA or BS might be pretty good, the quality drops off somewhere badly. Both have 4 teams not in the top 200 Div I. The SOCON also has 2 but slightly small number of teams. The Southland seriously suffers from lack of depth. They only have 4 teams out of 11 which are in the top 200 Div I. Lots of new/young teams though so that is expected. So they have not pulled even with CAA, BSC or even the higher rated SOCON.:D At least higher in the Massey rating for overall conference ratings.
The MVFC is obviously out front in both computer ratings. Massey then has it (cough) Ivy, then SOCON, BSC, CAA, BSouth, then a gap to the Patriot, OVC, then Southland, etc.
And even in Sagarin the BS, CAA and SOCON are still clumped together followed closely by OVC and (Cough) the Ivy. Small gap then Southland etc.
The Southland top is good (I think), but the depth is not there. Hence McNeese and SHSU have the lowest SOS in the AGS top 25, including Fordham, which is blasphemy to some. Central Arkansas SOS is better but that shows in their record as well.
Take these computer ratings as you will, but they are at least devoid of human biases. Except maybe the programmers who goosed the Ivy ratings.xcrazyx
Massey
Missouri Valley Ivy League Southern Big Sky Colonial Big South Patriot League OH Valley Southland Northeast Pioneer Mid-Eastern AC SWAC West Southwestern AC SWAC East
Sagarin
CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN
15 MISSOURI VALLEY (AA)= 58.76
21 BIG SKY (AA) = 47.88
22 COLONIAL (AA) = 46.76
23 SOUTHERN (AA) = 46.40
24 OHIO VALLEY (AA) = 44.91
25 IVY LEAGUE (AA) = 44.02
26 SOUTHLAND (AA) = 41.41
27 BIG SOUTH (AA) = 40.75
28 PATRIOT (AA) = 38.73
29 NORTHEAST (AA) = 34.00
30 MID-EASTERN (AA) = 31.60
31 SWAC-WEST (AA) = 29.23
32 SWAC-EAST (AA) = 25.82
33 PIONEER (AA) = 24.39
Look at the GPI if you want to know which teams should be in the tournament based on the their resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by PAllen
Good lord that's not even close to what I suggested. How do you know you've frustrated an Ivy or PL grad with unfortunate facts? When the directional school pejorative comes out. xsmiley_wixQuote:
Originally Posted by Lehigh Football Nation
Another indication that football ain't the only over-rated part of those educations.
Good thoughts here El Ciddo...Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCid
I'm luke warm at best regarding computer rankings. Human bias is also a legit criticism but just like with how the computers tend to improve as the season goes on , I think human historical bias eventually catches up as well. Recognizing that certain historically great teams no longer deserve to be ranked or that running the gauntlet in a historically tough conference isn't as difficult as it used to be may not occur fast enough for some but they eventually work themselves out.
I considered the Southern to have been down, not just because of secession, but because of the new teams needing time to elevate their programs and the recent record against the Big South. However, even as I'm typing that the Southern is down and the Southland has risen, I've already taken notice that Samford has a nice OOC win against UCA, Furman picked off an FBS, Chatty passes the eyeball test as a NC contender, and you guys are on the rise as well. At the same time, I'm now downgrading the Southland a bit as their OOC schedules have been weak and the new members are still struggling quite a bit. That's reflected in my polls. Perhaps I lag behind the computers but not by much.
Regarding human consideration of conference strength there are of course many metrics one can use as you suggest. I happen to think W-L gets too much credit..especially at this point in the season. For example, we all know (or should) that OOC scheduling is a tremendous drag as you move west due to a lack of FCS teams. The BSC and MVFC and Southland have each other to schedule and then it's either DII or 1 or 2 FBS depending on your finances. Conversley, being able to pad a schedule with MEAC's, NEC's, and Ivy's inflates the record of eastern conferences.
Not to diminish the importance of winning a high number of games but I happen to think SOS, FBS wins, and OOC wins are more important indicators than many recognize (BSC bias acknowledged :D). I also think recent conference playoff performance is another strong indicator. SHSU was able to tear through a widely considered weak Southland but it was evidently strong enough to prepare them for title runs.
Been discussed in other threads, but computers will struggle with the Ivy because of how insulated they are. They play only themselves and the PL. It creates a very, very, small rating pool. They just continue to inflate themselves, regardless what happens for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCid
There aren't enough games for computer rankings to overcome human bias. Kalm, you can dismiss my argument all you want. You do it everytime anyone has a valid point that disagrees with your tinted view of the world. That doesn't change the fact that you still haven't answered the question: How does a fourth or fifth ranked team in the MVFC lay claim to being THE best team in the country?
Since you'll never answer that question without trying to deflect, I'll help you out. They can't. If you can't claim that you're the best team in your conference, then you can't claim that you're the best team in the country, and that is what the playoffs are here to determine.
It's kind of silly to say the MVFC shouldn't have 4 teams in assuming they get 7 wins in a 24 team field. Can't argue with their OOC FCS record the last 2 years. Can't really say that about any other conference right now though.
Jesus Christo! since when have PL IQ's taken such a downward turn. My tinted view of the world? I love VALID points that challenge my world views. (Not sure what my world view has to do with football)xcoffeexQuote:
Originally Posted by PAllen
I answered your silly question already. I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt that you just missed it but I'm not so sure now. xsmiley_wix
I'll type more slowly this time so you can follow along...
No...one... is... claiming... that... the... 4th... place... MVFC... team... is... currently... the... best... team... in... the... land. Polls rank teams on the best available current data. Playoffs determine the final outcome.
So a 4th place MVFC lays claim to the best team in the land by going on a run and winning the NC.
But you go ahead and run with the PL champ having a legitimate claim to best team in the land because they won their AQ. xlolxxlolxxthumbsupx
If I'm reading the thread correctly, I am understanding your point to be that a 4th/5th place team from a "power" conference is more likely to strengthen the playoff field vs. the autobid from reduced/no scholarship conferences. Am I on target here?Quote:
Originally Posted by kalm
The playoffs should consist of team from this year not the past two years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lehigh'98
Even if you stick with just this year, I believe they are something like 16-3? against FCS OOC. With 24 teams there is room.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocky