Lafayette AD Reassigned In 2012

[DFW HOYA]

""I am grateful to Bruce for his many contributions to our athletics program and to the College as a whole. He will bring experience and expertise that will serve him well in the important new role of lead fundraiser for athletics, and his exemplary integrity and dedication to the College's mission will continue to benefit Lafayette immensely," said James F. Krivoski, executive assistant to the president and administrative secretary to the board of trustees, in a message to the campus community. "

http://www.goleopards.com/genrel/072511aaa.html

[Wildcat80]

Two thoughts.....Hope he is there to raise athletic scholarship $$ for Lafayette, and....UNH needs a guy like this to expand our stadium!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Because the greatest single challenge now facing Lafayette athletics is financial strength, I am joining the College's development team as lead athletics fundraiser to focus on increasing that strength very significantly. I am excited about the opportunity and look forward to the challenge."

Huge eyebrows at this part of the release.


"I am grateful to Bruce for his many contributions to our athletics program and to the College as a whole. He will bring experience and expertise that will serve him well in the important new role of lead fundraiser for athletics, and his exemplary integrity and dedication to the College's mission will continue to benefit Lafayette immensely," said James F. Krivoski, executive assistant to the president and administrative secretary to the board of trustees, in a message to the campus community.

Wouldn't you think that the "reassignment" might have been deemed worthy of some kind words from the President himself, not his executive assistant? It seems odd to me that an eleven-year career as AD would not deserve some sort of acknowledgement from the guy at the top.

In the dysfunctional environment that is Patriot League athletics, this convoluted "we're fundraising for something that looks like scholarships! However, our president couldn't be bothered with scholarships!" message seems right on track with the senselessness we've seen since the end of last season.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Is this a lateral move, a step up, or a step down? It sounds as if he did a lot to improve the facilities at Lafayette as well as improve the general level of athletics at the university. Do any of the regular PL guys know how he felt about football scholarships? Could this move possibly be related to differences in opinion between he and Weiss regarding the future of football scholarships at Lafayette and the PL?

[Franks Tanks]

Interesting. It appears Bruce was demoted, and I assume there can be two reasons for that.

1- The poor overall performance of the Lafayette athletic department.

or

2- He was too vocal in his support for football schoalrships, and rubbed too many people the wrong way.

The new AD assignment will speak volumes. Will it be a go getter who revamps the department, or a puppet of the President and BOT who will do what he is told?

[Franks Tanks]

Is this a lateral move, a step up, or a step down? It sounds as if he did a lot to improve the facilities at Lafayette as well as improve the general level of athletics at the university. Do any of the regular PL guys know how he felt about football scholarships? Could this move possibly be related to differences in opinion between he and Weiss regarding the future of football scholarships at Lafayette and the PL?

I take it as a step down. Bruce was for scholarships, but how hard he pushed for them is unclear. Bruce played football at William & Mary, so he understands FCS football very well. I don't know what this means right now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting. It appears Bruce was demoted, and I assume there can be two reasons for that.

1- The poor overall performance of the Lafayette athletic department.

or

2- He was too vocal in his support for football schoalrships, and rubbed too many people the wrong way.

The new AD assignment will speak volumes. Will it be a go getter who revamps the department, or a puppet of the President and BOT who will do what he is told?

If McCutcheon was "vocal in his support for scholarships", it was behind closed doors. I never heard a peep, ever, about his views on the topic.

And if he's being reassigned due to lack of "message control" last December, that would be especially rich, considering the actions of the guy at the top.

[Franks Tanks]

If McCutcheon was "vocal in his support for scholarships", it was behind closed doors. I never heard a peep, ever, about his views on the topic.

And if he's being reassigned due to lack of "message control" last December, that would be especially rich, considering the actions of the guy at the top.

I meant potential internal discussions that may have soured the relationship. I have no idea if this occured, but one of many possibities.

[carney2]

The message to me and others on the Lafayette board is clear: The College is going to do little, if anything, to fund football scholarships or any other "improvements" in the athletic program. It will be up to alumni donations to make things happen, and Bruce will be in charge of that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The more I think about this, what's surprising is not so much that Mr. McCutcheon was reassigned, nor, perhaps carney's explanation that "he's going to where the really important part of the program is: alumni donations". It's the timing of the reassignment - eight days before PL's football media day. Talk about a horrible time to have uncertainty at the head of the athletics department.

If McCutcheon's reassignment was planned, wouldn't it have been better to have it two months ago?

[carney2]

The more I think about this, what's surprising is not so much that Mr. McCutcheon was reassigned, nor, perhaps carney's explanation that "he's going to where the really important part of the program is: alumni donations". It's the timing of the reassignment - eight days before PL's football media day. Talk about a horrible time to have uncertainty at the head of the athletics department.

If McCutcheon's reassignment was planned, wouldn't it have been better to have it two months ago?

The flaw in your logic, LFN: you assume that someone - anyone - in Easton gives thought to the athletic program in general, and the football program in particular.

I have no inside info, but my understanding is that the head of the philosophy department will be assigned the athletic director responsibilities as more or less an add on or part time assignment, and he will report to the President of the Faculty Senate.

[Go...gate]

Agree that the timing could be a lot better.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I imagine that the search for a new AD will be limited to Eve Atkinson look-alikes. Somehow this has to turn out worse than any of us can suppose. I just know it.

[carney2]

The confusion - no, let's be completely honest and call it what it is, CHAOS - that surrounds the Lafayette athletic programs continues and even intensifies. Nothing good can come of this.

[Seawolf97]

From our informative PL posters it sounds like a step backward in athletics . Not want you want to see.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The confusion - no, let's be completely honest and call it what it is, CHAOS - that surrounds the Lafayette athletic programs continues and even intensifies. Nothing good can come of this.

Was there anything on the agenda this week, Lafayette-watchers, that could have precipitated this? Title IX discussions, football scholarships, anything?

[Franks Tanks]

From our informative PL posters it sounds like a step backward in athletics . Not want you want to see.

From an impartial outside view (not that I have this POV) it can actually look like a good thing on the surface. We have an AD being replaced whose all sports record was sub-par. He is moving to a newly created fund raising position, which was one area where he found success. It can be argued this is a positive development. We are creating a new position so Bruce can focus on what he does best-- fundraising. We will get a new AD who will be better on the admin end. In the end we have a better AD, and more money being raised for the athletic department.

However this is Lafayette and we (the fans and alumni) have been screwed over too many times. We are always looking for ulterior motives, and wonder if this move was made because of poor athletic department performance or internal dissent. It may be a while until we know for sure.

Many Lafayette fans have not been pleased with Bruce, but we also realize he has been severly handcuffed by the administration. It is very difficulty to measure his performance as we get the feeling he was never quite able to implement his vision. In the end Bruce may have been fired because of poor athletic dept. performance, because he pissed off his bosses, or he wanted to step aside in an amicable way whil etrying to get out of dodge.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/lafayette-athletic-director-reassigned.html

President Weiss, you're on the clock.

[Seawolf97]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/lafayette-athletic-director-reassigned.html

President Weiss, you're on the clock.

Excellent blog as always. Ties in with what Franks Tanks posted the other day. Would the admin bring in an outsider at some point to fill the AD job? I mean outside the PL . Sounds like he acoomplished quite a bit in a short time. He probably deserves a raise not a re assignment .

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/lafayette-athletic-director-reassigned.html

President Weiss, you're on the clock.

Very nicely done, LFN. Let's hope someone on College Hill reads it.



xoutofrepx

[Go...gate]

Well done as always, LFN.

[carney2]

Well done, as always, LFN. I posted the following on the Lafayette board and it's probably worth a rehash here for this broader audience.



I have given some thought - not much, but what I am capable of - to the here and now. What should we make of this? The initial reaction was that Bruce has gotten bumped out of the way and sent to the Pardville version of Siberia. But why should we conclude this? As has been pointed out already in this thread Bruce gave every indication of being a good soldier. He did what needed to be done to retain his employment. Was he a yes man? Maybe. Was he the messenger boy between the powers that be and the potential loose cannons like Tavani? Maybe. He was not however, a boat rocker. From all outward appearances, he has been exactly the kind of AD that the administration and BoT will be searching for. Why get rid of him?

Perhaps, just perhaps, Bruce will be moving to a position of greater utility. Perhaps the decision has been made that the College cannot fund D1 athletics, and if we are going to survive at this level we need a boost that only the alumni can provide. Perhaps the decision makers have concluded that Bruce has been much more of a factor in the stadium renovations, the implementation of the Friends groups and other fund raising than any of us are aware. Perhaps they see something here that we don't and have moved Bruce into a perfect position. Perhaps this is Dan Weiss's version of being proactive and creating some movement in the world of Lafayette athletics.

As for the "bad timing," there is no time like the present. Once the decision is made, go for it. There is now a year to conduct an orderly and thorough search for a successor. No rush; no decisions made in haste.



In any event, those of you who think that maybe someone will be brought in to fight for football scholarships have gotten into some bad weed. Remember the Dan Weiss interview with the Lafayette student newspaper prior to the president's meeting and kick the can vote last December? Remember the firm statement of position on football scholarships which goes something like this

Lafayette will vote no on football scholarships but will be all in should the measure pass.

Whatever that means.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Since one poster has recommended that AGS ought to remain bereft of speculation and hypothesizing, and since the PL is immune from AGS rules, I thought I'd add a bit more conjecture here.

What if Bruce is being kept in cold storage for league expansion purposes? As you know, Tim Landis (formerly of Bucknell) now is the Head Coach at RPI. RPI has built brand new FCS-level facilities. Even Dartmouth blogger Big Green Alert has suggested that RPI would be a perfect Patriot League member (http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/lucas-comes-up-short.html).

Moreover, Big Green Alert suggests that Ithaca College could be mulling a move to Division II (http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/true-penn-heroes.html), setting up a potential in-town Cornell rivalry should Ithaca take the logical next step.

Is it possible that Bruce McCutechon is being kept on the shelf for a move to a Patriot expansion candidate?

[Franks Tanks]

Since one poster has recommended that AGS ought to remain bereft of speculation and hypothesizing, and since the PL is immune from AGS rules, I thought I'd add a bit more conjecture here.

What if Bruce is being kept in cold storage for league expansion purposes? As you know, Tim Landis (formerly of Bucknell) now is the Head Coach at RPI. RPI has built brand new FCS-level facilities. Even Dartmouth blogger Big Green Alert has suggested that RPI would be a perfect Patriot League member (http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/lucas-comes-up-short.html).

Moreover, Big Green Alert suggests that Ithaca College could be mulling a move to Division II (http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/true-penn-heroes.html), setting up a potential in-town Cornell rivalry should Ithaca take the logical next step.

Is it possible that Bruce McCutechon is being kept on the shelf for a move to a Patriot expansion candidate?

Interesting take. Sometimes high level people make curious moves to advance their career. At my company the CEO announed our CIO would be moving to a new role. Being a technology company the CIO is a very important role, and we all assumed the guy was being shoved aside. About a year later the guy surfaced as President of the North American business. It could be that Bruce is taking a proactive stance to gain more experience in the fund raising area to set him up for whatever he wants to do next.

As I said with Lafayette being Lafayette we are conditioned to assume the worst, but this move may actually be a good thing for us.

[RichH2]

Whatever the rationale for the move, my only concern is that it does not put Pards into another DivIII death spiral. A srong Lafayette program is important to the PL and to our GAME

[Bogus Megapardus]

Whatever the rationale for the move, my only concern is that it does not put Pards into another DivIII death spiral. A srong Lafayette program is important to the PL and to our GAME

The one positive take from Pres. Weiss was his commitment to Division I. He said (and I paraphrase here), "there's no discussion of Division III." And really - Lafayette is in MUCH better financial shape than at least half of Division I private schools.

[Go...gate]

Just looked at that RPI ball park. Beautiful!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just looked at that RPI ball park. Beautiful!

I think that the speculation that RPI's new facility was built with FCS in mind is warranted.

[LUHawker]

Perhaps I lack LFN's insights and suspicions, but my initial reaction to this article was that Bruce was now being moved to a role where he could raise additional funds to support scholarships. If I read everything correctly, then he is a great fundraiser and was a force behind all of LC's facilities upgrades. Perhaps this is the next step to get LC in a position to support the PL as it moves towards schollies.

I, for one, believe that schollies are a question of when, not if. To me, it seems that they have gone from being a philosophical issue to an economic issue, which further says to me that a solution can be found. This, in and of itself is a big change.

I've been mentioning and hoping for RPI for some time and agree with prior posts regarding its fit and facility as being FCS-suitable. Notwithstanding the very long phase in that would be required, they'd be a great fit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Perhaps I lack LFN's insights and suspicions, but my initial reaction to this article was that Bruce was now being moved to a role where he could raise additional funds to support scholarships. If I read everything correctly, then he is a great fundraiser and was a force behind all of LC's facilities upgrades. Perhaps this is the next step to get LC in a position to support the PL as it moves towards schollies.

In other words, you would apply Occam's Razor and seek the most obvious explanation for the event. But what fun is that? xwhistlex

[TheValleyRaider]

At the risk of repeating things already said many times before:


I, for one, believe that schollies are a question of when, not if. To me, it seems that they have gone from being a philosophical issue to an economic issue, which further says to me that a solution can be found. This, in and of itself is a big change.

I tend to agree, but I worry that the answer to "when" will cause the League some serious and unnecessary problems. Fordham has one foot out the door, but they are a perfectly good fit for the League and someone we should be willing to keep, a position which won't happen without the acceptance of scholarships. Lose Fordham, and while we may be able to survive at the NCAA minimum of 6 schools for the playoffs, that is not an admirable position to be in


I've been mentioning and hoping for RPI for some time and agree with prior posts regarding its fit and facility as being FCS-suitable. Notwithstanding the very long phase in that would be required, they'd be a great fit.

Seconded about RPI, but that wait will be on the order of a decade, and that's assuming they were prepared to begin a move up tomorrow, and I doubt that situation is the case. Short-term expansion options have been hashed over before, but their presence becomes more necessary with any real changes in membership

[RichH2]

There you go Bogie "Occam's razor" indeed. When has the PL ever even acknowledged such a method much less followed it. Just took a peek at RPI's facilities, simply superb. May take them a decade or 2 to transition upxrotatehx but certainly worth the wait.

[DFW HOYA]

There you go Bogie "Occam's razor" indeed. When has the PL ever even acknowledged such a method much less followed it. Just took a peek at RPI's facilities, simply superb. May take them a decade or 2 to transition upxrotatehx but certainly worth the wait.

Outside of a football stadium slightly bigger than the (projected) MSF, what is the evidence anyone at RPI wants to go Division I?

The 1,200 seat gym just built? The $500,000 football budget? The $7 million athletic budget?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Outside of a football stadium slightly bigger than the (projected) MSF, what is the evidence anyone at RPI wants to go Division I?

The 1,200 seat gym just built? The $500,000 football budget? The $7 million athletic budget?

I will try to look again for the citation evidence and post it here, but I know that RPI President Shirley Ann Jackson has made a number of statements reflecting very strong favor for RPI athletics and, when asked, has not denied the potential for FCS football. The D3 message boards have been replete with Patriot League references for a few years.

As far as the finances, the college has 5,400 students with 3,300 undergrads (the right size) and an endowment (post downturn) of $700mm (the right amount) for Patriot membership on a per-student basis. I also read that RPI's new basketball arena was designed to be expandable to 4-5,000 which would be PL-sized. I'm assuming that nobody here doubts the perfect fit of the institution's academic reputation (beyond elite), curriculum (engineering and hard sciences) and geography (halfway between Colgate and Holy Cross).

I also think that The University of Rochester would be an equal if not better fit, for all the same reasons. This can happen, IMHO, and I really hope that it does. Gawd, if we could get them, add Hopkins and keep Georgetown. Ivy Lite no more.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm assuming that nobody here doubts the perfect fit of the institution's academic reputation (beyond elite), curriculum (engineering and hard sciences) and geography (halfway between Colgate and Holy Cross). I also think that The University of Rochester would be an equal if not better fit, for all the same reasons. This can happen, IMHO, and I really hope that it does.

I don't get it. Why would any Div. I conference want to add Division III schools? It shows a tremendous weakness that the PL can't do better. Why not just merge with the UAA (Rochester, Case Western, Washington-MO, Chicago, Carnegie Mellon)?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't get it. Why would any Div. I conference want to add Division III schools? It shows a tremendous weakness that the PL can't do better. Why not just merge with the UAA (Rochester, Case Western, Washington-MO, Chicago, Carnegie Mellon)?

I'll leave it to others to address the "weakness" of adding to the PL erstwhile Division III football programs at elite academic institutions such as RPI and Rochester.

And Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I tend to side with DFW Hoya on the issue of PL expansion in this case. What does it say when the best candidates to consider for expansion aren't even Division I?

And, equally as importantly, why would an RPI or Johns Hopkins definitely consider joining the PL in all sports? RPI and Johns Hopkins don't need PL membership to schedule hockey or lacrosse games with the Ivy League - they get those already, and will continue to do so.

The truth is RPI and Johns Hopkins will not go to Division I in football unless they're forced into the division in all sports - and even then they might not choose to keep football. And it seems like the NCAA is quite content for the time being to leave these D-I/D-III hybrids alone as long as the D-I sport is hockey or lacrosse - after all, they're adding extra barriers to moving up classifications, not removing them.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And it seems like the NCAA is quite content for the time being to leave these D-I/D-III hybrids alone

When the exemption came up for renewal, the eight grandfathered schools had to hire a publicist and present a glitzy public campaign to keep their status. Eventually Proposition 65-1 passed by a vote of 296-106 with 17 abstentions, but it was contentious. RPI even had to get Sen. Chuck Schumer to hold a press conference at its field house.

http://www.jhu.edu/news/univ03/dec03/pdf/ncaaproposal65.pdf

Oddly, though, part of the pitch (especially from Hopkins advocates) was to "protect our football players from Division I."

The exemption for the grandfathered schools now is "permanent."

[Bogus Megapardus]

Meanwhile, Lehigh HC Andy Coen tries to give football advice to some random fat guy who showed up at Goodman while Coen was out mowing the pasture.


http://prod.static.eagles.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/PHI/photos/clubimages/2011/07-July/AP11072904726--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg

[carney2]

my initial reaction to this article was that Bruce was now being moved to a role where he could raise additional funds to support scholarships.

IF this is truly a move to make use of a special Bruce McCutcheon flair for fund raising, you can bet the ranch that it is NOT being fueled by a move to fund football scholarships. More likely the thinking is to fund the entire athletic cash drain and, as noted in the press release, to fund an upgrade in basketball facilities. This latter point, by the way, has not gotten a lot of attention from the online crowd, here or elsewhere, and is, in my opinion, a biggie.

Although it may be true that, as you say, football scholarships are more a question of "when," not "if," my opinion is that this is not the thinking on College Hill. They have dug in their feet by committing to a "no" vote, and stuck the other end (their heads) firmly in the sand by not, to the best of anyone's knowledge, making any contingency plans in that direction. A "contingency plan" would almost have to include signals that the College is moving to solve its Title IX problems.

Looking at the whole football scholarships saga realistically in current terms it appears as follows:

Voting or leaning "YES:" Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh

Voting or leaning "NO:" Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette

This imbalance becomes even more acute if Fordham packs its bags before a vote is taken. At that point, even "Yes" votes by the service academies (and I've never been clear on how this would work) would, by my count, not provide the solution that we'd like. The early calculus says that to make your "when" over "if" statement a reality there will have to be a major "intervention" such as Colgate and/or the service academies threatening a move that destroys the League. It's happened before. Back in the 90s Army more or less forced the issue on basketball scholarships when Holy Cross said that they were leaving if they didn't get them.

Oh yeah, all this RPI, Johns Hopkins discussion is just so much bull droppings. We're talking serious stuff here - the survival of the Patriot League. We ought to be having serious discussions.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Carney, picking out just one of your well-reasoned points, here. Football necessarily must enhance Lafayette's overall image and prestige as an institution. We all know that. Otherwise there would be no reason to sponsor anything other than participatory athletics for the benefit of the students. Part of that image, at least right now, includes eschewing scholarships (just like our Ivy "friends") and participating in an association of institutions that, collectively, is supposed to create a brand name that rubs off on each of the members (again, just like our Ivy "friends").

Now, there's been a general consensus that Lafayette's President, Dan Weiss, cares a lot - maybe too much - about what his faculty thinks and that his decisions are in large part driven by their communal preference. I think a lot of that preference in turn is driven by that old "company-you-keep" chestnut.

So let's say that Williams College (the faculty's wet dream) and MIT (already a PL associate member in rowing) all of a sudden decide to start the process of bringing all of their sports up to Division I, go all in for scholarship football, and plead to join the Patriot. Do you really think it would take more than ten minutes and a cup of soy latte for the Lafayette faculty to change its collective minds on the subject?

I know that scenario is nuts but you get the point. If not, just think about how fast Georgetown would have a new football stadium were it invited to join the Ivy.

[Sader87]

IF this is truly a move to make use of a special Bruce McCutcheon flair for fund raising, you can bet the ranch that it is NOT being fueled by a move to fund football scholarships. More likely the thinking is to fund the entire athletic cash drain and, as noted in the press release, to fund an upgrade in basketball facilities. This latter point, by the way, has not gotten a lot of attention from the online crowd, here or elsewhere, and is, in my opinion, a biggie.

Although it may be true that, as you say, football scholarships are more a question of "when," not "if," my opinion is that this is not the thinking on College Hill. They have dug in their feet by committing to a "no" vote, and stuck the other end (their heads) firmly in the sand by not, to the best of anyone's knowledge, making any contingency plans in that direction. A "contingency plan" would almost have to include signals that the College is moving to solve its Title IX problems.

Looking at the whole football scholarships saga realistically in current terms it appears as follows:

Voting or leaning "YES:" Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh

Voting or leaning "NO:" Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette

This imbalance becomes even more acute if Fordham packs its bags before a vote is taken. At that point, even "Yes" votes by the service academies (and I've never been clear on how this would work) would, by my count, not provide the solution that we'd like. The early calculus says that to make your "when" over "if" statement a reality there will have to be a major "intervention" such as Colgate and/or the service academies threatening a move that destroys the League. It's happened before. Back in the 90s Army more or less forced the issue on basketball scholarships when Holy Cross said that they were leaving if they didn't get them.

Oh yeah, all this RPI, Johns Hopkins discussion is just so much bull droppings. We're talking serious stuff here - the survival of the Patriot League. We ought to be having serious discussions.


I can't think of too many things less serious than the survival of the PL. Yes, it's our Frankenstein's monster but our affiliation has done nothing but hurt HC athletically (and, I'd argue, our overall reputation as an academic institution to a certain extent) over the years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

[/B]

I can't think of too many things less serious than the survival of the PL. Yes, it's our Frankenstein's monster but our affiliation has done nothing but hurt HC athletically (and, I'd argue, our overall reputation as an academic institution to a certain extent) over the years.


OK - spell it out. Which among us has hurt the national reputation of the College of the Holy Cross over the past 25 years? I would argue that, without the PL, Holy Cross would be playing second fiddle to Assumption College in Worcester.

You owe us, Sader87. Next time you visit Easton, you'd better bring cash, hookers and blow.

Peace.

[Sader87]

It's not that the PL dragged HC down, rather where HC would be if they had not joined the PL. HC has basically plateaued (and possibly regressed in some metrics) as an academic institution since the inception of the PL in 1986. Other similar institutions have gone way by HC (BC) and others have creeped up to HC (Villanova, PC) due in great part to their affiliation in high-profile athletic conferences.

[RichH2]

Serious discussions, survival of the PL gee Carney whaddya think we are Congressxshakefistx

Like our country, it is not whether we will survive but at what level and in what kind of shape. Our presidents, so far, like the tea party want no compromise, no schollies and like HOUSE ,since they are right and everyone else wrong, have no care at the damage they do. Survival of the PL is not real high on the academics list

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sader87, twenty-five years is a long time. The Patriot League's inception was in 1982, and it began play four years later. Twenty-five years before the inception of the PL, in 1957, the Ivy League had just come into existence with its new philosophy. It has worked well for them up until now, needless to say.

I'm not saying that the Patriot has evolved over a quarter century the way the Ivy did, of course. But its origins are similar. Three nationally-prominent football schools, two historic but less-competitive colleges, and three places where football (and sports in general) had become an afterthought. Now the Ivy members all are viewed, academically and philosophically, in much the same light as one another.

In 1982 you had two nationally-prominent football schools (Holy Cross and Colgate), two legacy places with continuously viable, strong programs (Lehigh and Lafayette), and a traditional program (Bucknell) with past success against the likes of Penn State and Temple. Add in a couple of DIII schools with national academic reputations and historically great football programs (Fordham, Georgetown), plus Army and Navy in all other sports, and you've got quite a celebrated assemblage.

It's easy to say that the Patriot has failed to become what long-time fans of the individual schools might have hoped it would be. As an ardent PL supporter, I suggest that individual league members collectively are much better off for having joined this noble experiment, and that it will become only stronger.

Much of your criticism is decidedly insular; that the "failed policies of the previous administration" are the sole cause of what you deem to be an established mediocrity. But I think that you're overlooking (at a very minimum) the competition from the state universities (UConn, Mass, Delaware, etc.) that were not nearly as strong as they now are. Those places propagate state-imposed, taxpayer-based funding for athletics like never before. The purpose of that government funding was to compete with us, Sader87. It's hard to compete with "free," as you know.

I'm not going to belabor this, but I will continue to maintain that Holy Cross is better off for having been in the PL, and that it will continue to thrive.

See you in Easton.

[RichH2]

Polemics aside, I think all of us, even Fordham are better off for having the PL. As much as I moan about our policies or lack thereof , the Pl has become home . I find I root for all our teams ( not when they play us) and actually care how Hoyas will improve, Pards new AD, Bison rebuilding, etc. Home may not yet be perfect but if Presidents grow a set we could be much closer.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We are all about polemics here, RichH2!

Just don't speculate or hypothesize on AGS, of course . . . . xcoolx





(I agree with you otherwise, naturally).

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'd hardly call Holy Cross a prominant program when the PL was formed in the early 80's. In reality HC was nothing more than an average to below average football program from the mid 50's until the early 1980's. The Crusaders weren't exactly scheduling national powherhouses either. The idea that they were some national powerhouse prior to their arrival of the PL is completely inaccurate. In fact, the ironic part is their greatest success over the last 50 years has come as a member of the the PL. I'd contend that if they hadn't dropped down to 1AA and joined the PL HC would have completely dropped their program since they were struggling to compete.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'd hardly call Holy Cross a prominent program when the PL was formed in the early 80's.

Just trying to give Sader87 some props for the sake of argument, that's all. We can argue 'till the Lehigh Coeds come home over which PL school was best at the time, but I think the general hypothesis holds.



EDIT: I think this argument probably is true:


In fact, the ironic part is their greatest success over the last 50 years has come as a member of the the PL.

The success of Holy Cross in football likely was at its apex in the 80s. And, while HC had some nice basketball years in the 50s (as did Lafayette), Lehigh had two or three consensus national championships in men's lacrosse and Lafayette had three national championships in football before that (something HC can't match). Not too sure where Holy Cross was when the "Pennsylvania schools" were whipping it's arse here. And yes, I'll stack up historic Bucknell soccer, Lafayette baseball and especially Lehigh wrestling against Holy Cross any time.

One ought to note, again, that non-scholarship Lehigh and Lafayette both beat full-scholarship Holy Cross in football during the "glory years."

[TheValleyRaider]

I can't think of too many things less serious than the survival of the PL. Yes, it's our Frankenstein's monster but our affiliation has done nothing but hurt HC athletically (and, I'd argue, our overall reputation as an academic institution to a certain extent) over the years.

And what will HC do without the PL now?

Yes, HC used to be in a much different place for football. But that was over a generation ago, and right now, your outside options are pretty slim. Unless the Cross has some secret plans to upgrade their athletics upon the PL's dissolution, they're not really an attractive option for a conference upgrade. Independence, without a similar significant change in athletic direction, is a non-starter, and highly unlikely to be successful for anyone at the FCS level

Is the survival of the PL important? Answer this: if the PL were to announce its dissolution next year, what would be HC's next move? And what will HC do to maximize that opportunity that they're not doing in the PL currently?

[colorless raider]

And what will HC do without the PL now?

Yes, HC used to be in a much different place for football. But that was over a generation ago, and right now, your outside options are pretty slim. Unless the Cross has some secret plans to upgrade their athletics upon the PL's dissolution, they're not really an attractive option for a conference upgrade. Independence, without a similar significant change in athletic direction, is a non-starter, and highly unlikely to be successful for anyone at the FCS level

Is the survival of the PL important? Answer this: if the PL were to announce its dissolution next year, what would be HC's next move? And what will HC do to maximize that opportunity that they're not doing in the PL currently?

First things first, HC has to vote for scholarships and leave later if they wish. Lots of luck.

[Bogus Megapardus]

First things first, HC has to vote for scholarships and leave later if they wish. Lots of luck.

Under this scenario


So let's say that Williams College (the faculty's wet dream) and MIT (already a PL associate member in rowing) all of a sudden decide to start the process of bringing all of their sports up to Division I, go all in for scholarship football, and plead to join the Patriot. Do you really think it would take more than ten minutes and a cup of soy latte for the Lafayette faculty to change its collective minds on the subject?

do you think Holy Cross would vote in favor of scholarships?

[Go...gate]

Sader87, twenty-five years is a long time. The Patriot League's inception was in 1982, and it began play four years later. Twenty-five years before the inception of the PL, in 1957, the Ivy League had just come into existence with its new philosophy. It has worked well for them up until now, needless to say.

I'm not saying that the Patriot has evolved over a quarter century the way the Ivy did, of course. But its origins are similar. Three nationally-prominent football schools, two historic but less-competitive colleges, and three places where football (and sports in general) had become an afterthought. Now the Ivy members all are viewed, academically and philosophically, in much the same light as one another.

In 1982 you had two nationally-prominent football schools (Holy Cross and Colgate), two legacy places with continuously viable, strong programs (Lehigh and Lafayette), and a traditional program (Bucknell) with past success against the likes of Penn State and Temple. Add in a couple of DIII schools with national academic reputations and historically great football programs (Fordham, Georgetown), plus Army and Navy in all other sports, and you've got quite a celebrated assemblage.

It's easy to say that the Patriot has failed to become what long-time fans of the individual schools might have hoped it would be. As an ardent PL supporter, I suggest that individual league members collectively are much better off for having joined this noble experiment, and that it will become only stronger.

Much of your criticism is decidedly insular; that the "failed policies of the previous administration" are the sole cause of what you deem to be an established mediocrity. But I think that you're overlooking (at a very minimum) the competition from the state universities (UConn, Mass, Delaware, etc.) that were not nearly as strong as they now are. Those places propagate state-imposed, taxpayer-based funding for athletics like never before. The purpose of that government funding was to compete with us, Sader87. It's hard to compete with "free," as you know.

I'm not going to belabor this, but I will continue to maintain that Holy Cross is better off for having been in the PL, and that it will continue to thrive.

See you in Easton.

I agree with you, Bogus. Well said.

[ngineer]

Huge eyebrows at this part of the release.



Wouldn't you think that the "reassignment" might have been deemed worthy of some kind words from the President himself, not his executive assistant? It seems odd to me that an eleven-year career as AD would not deserve some sort of acknowledgement from the guy at the top.

In the dysfunctional environment that is Patriot League athletics, this convoluted "we're fundraising for something that looks like scholarships! However, our president couldn't be bothered with scholarships!" message seems right on track with the senselessness we've seen since the end of last season.

Lafayette's Administration is dysfunctional. Weiss doesn't give a rat's pitoot about athletics, and Krivoski is a man without a clue, yet they use him to keep Weiss "above it all". The College is going to have some difficult time ahead raising money for anything if they keep treating its alumni like urchins who are unpleasant to deal with. Lafayette's Board of Trustees needs to grab the bull by the horns and make some decisions as to the direction they want to the College to proceed (or revert).

[TheValleyRaider]

First things first, HC has to vote for scholarships and leave later if they wish. Lots of luck.

Well, of course, but that would require a firm commitment on the issue from the HC administration, which as it appears to this outsider, is not necessarily forthcoming

Absent that kind of shift, how attractive an option is HC to other conferences? And going independent? Very difficult to do even at the FBS level, where tradition and TV money can help maintain the status. At the FCS level? It seems like a non-starter

With all that, how could HC (and their fanbase) not have an interest in maintaining the PL? It's not perfect (I certainly have a few changes I would like to make), but that doesn't make it a bad option. Pining about the one-time Big East opportunity does no one any good now, either in speculation or potential solution-making

[Go...gate]

Polemics aside, I think all of us, even Fordham are better off for having the PL. As much as I moan about our policies or lack thereof , the Pl has become home . I find I root for all our teams ( not when they play us) and actually care how Hoyas will improve, Pards new AD, Bison rebuilding, etc. Home may not yet be perfect but if Presidents grow a set we could be much closer.

Agreed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Oh yeah, all this RPI, Johns Hopkins discussion is just so much bull droppings. We're talking serious stuff here - the survival of the Patriot League. We ought to be having serious discussions.

This is so, very, true, and this is what I've been trying to talk about when instead, discussions of expansion seem to end up as attempts to prop up Division III athletics departments as "serious candidates" (what's RPI doing these days?) and discriminating against any other Division I institution as "not being Patriot League enough" (Monmouth? Horrors!).

The big difference of the analogy of the debt ceiling talks and PL football expansion is that the debt ceiling debate lends itself to movie-cliche deadlines and brinkmanship. League expansion doesn't work that way: the only way membership is attractive to a school is if the league will be around now, and forever into the future. There is no candidate that will step forward two days before a league is to fold.

The situation with Fordham leaving is incredibly serious - and yet, it's joined by cries of "they weren't Patriot League enough anyway", "let's study football scholarships for two more years, and maybe we decide then, maybe we don't", and "we're a perfectly healthy league with five core members, one football member spending a fraction of what the others are, and no realistic expansion candidates with the current league structure".

And even with all that, given the seriousness of Fordham's position, it's actually remarkable that they have stayed around as long as they have. Think Stony Brook would have hing around the Big South for a second if they were similarly treated by their conference leadership?

And we thought Congress was oblivious.

[Sader87]

While I agree that "we got nowhere else to go"...what exactly has the PL done that is beneficial to the HC athletic department? Interest (and overall competitivensess) in HC football has cratered since the league formed. The same general argument could be made of the men's basketball program and we are barely competitive in most PL Olympic sports. Yes, this was (and continues to be) of our own doing but to imply that the PL has been "good" to HC athletics is to be very disingenuous.

[TheValleyRaider]

While I agree that "we got nowhere else to go"...what exactly has the PL done that is beneficial to the HC athletic department? Interest (and overall competitivensess) in HC football has cratered since the league formed. The same general argument could be made of the men's basketball program and we are barely competitive in most PL Olympic sports. Yes, this was (and continues to be) of our own doing but to imply that the PL has been "good" to HC athletics is to be very disingenuous.

Seems to be splitting rhetorical hairs to me. The PL was designed to provide an environment for HC to support athletics in a manner consistent with your administration's vision. At this point, the PL is "good" for HC insofar as no other option provides those things. The demise of the League isn't going to help, which to me suggests preserving some form of the League as quite important

[Andy]

This is so, very, true, and this is what I've been trying to talk about when instead, discussions of expansion seem to end up as attempts to prop up Division III athletics departments as "serious candidates" (what's RPI doing these days?) and discriminating against any other Division I institution as "not being Patriot League enough" (Monmouth? Horrors!).

The big difference of the analogy of the debt ceiling talks and PL football expansion is that the debt ceiling debate lends itself to movie-cliche deadlines and brinkmanship. League expansion doesn't work that way: the only way membership is attractive to a school is if the league will be around now, and forever into the future. There is no candidate that will step forward two days before a league is to fold.

The situation with Fordham leaving is incredibly serious - and yet, it's joined by cries of "they weren't Patriot League enough anyway", "let's study football scholarships for two more years, and maybe we decide then, maybe we don't", and "we're a perfectly healthy league with five core members, one football member spending a fraction of what the others are, and no realistic expansion candidates with the current league structure".

And even with all that, given the seriousness of Fordham's position, it's actually remarkable that they have stayed around as long as they have. Think Stony Brook would have hing around the Big South for a second if they were similarly treated by their conference leadership?

And we thought Congress was oblivious.

Monmouth is a "serious candidate?" FU's argument was that the AI put them in a unique and untenable position. Why would Monmouth find it any more acceptable? (average test score of incoming football players on athletic aid '06-'09 1029, no GPA figures per latest Self Study. And that's with scholarships, correct?)

Obviously, some of us mention RPI, Hopkins, etc as viable candidates not out of snobbery as asserted, but rather because they might actually "fit" and find the rules acceptable.

[RichH2]

For all too many years I wished to be over 6'. Never got there. Likewise I can wish as hard as I can for Nova, Wofford, Richmond etc as great fits for PL. Just as likely as me growing another 1/4 inch. So we are left with schools that could fit athletically but not so well academically Monmouth, maine, marist Duquense et al. OR those that fit academically but not athletically Rochester, RPI et al. What would you have us speculate about given the present circumstances? So what if it may take RPI a decade if they decide to join. Are we doing anything else? Until the landscape changes, I feel we are best served with fixing our own house for ourselves. After that perhaps it may be productive to seek some additional members. If we dont fix our own siuation expansion is rather a dead issue.

[Pard4Life]

While I agree that "we got nowhere else to go"...what exactly has the PL done that is beneficial to the HC athletic department? Interest (and overall competitivensess) in HC football has cratered since the league formed. The same general argument could be made of the men's basketball program and we are barely competitive in most PL Olympic sports. Yes, this was (and continues to be) of our own doing but to imply that the PL has been "good" to HC athletics is to be very disingenuous.

Will HC be willing to pay for massive facility upgrades, full scholarships and additional scholarships for women?

Have a seat at the PL table...

[Pard4Life]

Meanwhile, Lehigh HC Andy Coen tries to give football advice to some random fat guy who showed up at Goodman while Coen was out mowing the pasture.


http://prod.static.eagles.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/PHI/photos/clubimages/2011/07-July/AP11072904726--nfl_medium_540_360.jpg

Reid is clearly not buying any of Coen's BS. "You are the coach of who now?" "Your shirt's brown... did you just fall in the latrine?"

[DFW HOYA]

Will HC be willing to pay for massive facility upgrades, full scholarships and additional scholarships for women?


I think the general argument is that HC could play in America East or the MAAC and not need to fund all its programs at the levels you discussed. Nevertheless, if HC is finishing last in the PL President's Cup standings (as it has regularly), it would have to a) spend a lot more b) field fewer teams, or c) raise the expectations on the coaches for its teams to be competitive in any other conference.

Unfortunately, much the same can be said in these standings for Lafayette.

http://www.patriotleague.org/school-bio/patr-school-bio-presidents-cup.html

[Pard4Life]

Carney, you will have additional insight into scholarships this Wednesday as Tavani speaks. Somebody will ask I'm sure.

There will be scholarships, a limited model and each school will be able to decide their own course. Weiss blew the cover when he spoke to the paper by being intransigent heading into the meeting. Everyone is just buying time to raise the funds and study the appropriate number for their respective schools. Colgate and Lehigh knew their numbers; Lafayette and others, like HC, probably ignored the issue and are now reviewing the issue.

Weiss is not anti-athletics. He is trying to balance and cater to various interests without being decidedly for one faction or the other. Going all-in on scholarships would alienate the faculty. At the same time, he issues a statement, pledging comittment to D-I without really supporting a D-I program. Typical politics. We are going to get a solution that we will not like, a highly polarized PL, like the Ivy, with have and have-not teams. It will keep the PL together.

I think expansion talk is sadly just wasted air. Many of these arguments are logical from an athletics perspective, but PL Presidents are focused on other issues and the costs for upgrading a program will be significant in this challenging economic and budget climate.

Anyhow, isn't Fordham's withdrawal from the PL on June 30, 2012? And the vote will occur in December 2012?

[Pard4Life]

Playing in the MAAC or America East would not satisfy the HC alums and would not raise the prestige or competitive level of the basketball and football programs. There is no shot at the Big East, but let's say the Atlantic10 for basketball and CAA for football... acceptable to HC alums I'm sure... would require an investment.

[Go...gate]

While I agree that "we got nowhere else to go"...what exactly has the PL done that is beneficial to the HC athletic department? Interest (and overall competitivensess) in HC football has cratered since the league formed. The same general argument could be made of the men's basketball program and we are barely competitive in most PL Olympic sports. Yes, this was (and continues to be) of our own doing but to imply that the PL has been "good" to HC athletics is to be very disingenuous.

But this is not just about the PL, but also HC itself. What about HC's failure to step up to gain admission to the ECAC Hockey League?

[Sader87]

But this is not just about the PL, but also HC itself. What about HC's failure to step up to gain admission to the ECAC Hockey League?

I don't disagree...TPTB at HC have done (or not done as the case may be) everything in their power to make HC athletics more "NESCAC-like" than say "BC, Villanova, Georgetown-like" over the last close to 30 years.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't disagree...TPTB at HC have done (or not done as the case may be) everything in their power to make HC athletics more "NESCAC-like" than say "BC, Villanova, Georgetown-like" over the last close to 30 years.

The thing is, Holy Cross's approach in the 60's and 70's wasn't working either. They were playing a watered down schedule and having limited success. HC didn't take off until they dropped down to 1AA. So if nothing else the administration did something right.