Why

[SoCon48]

Why do so many Appalachian fans constantly diss the Southern Conference? That horse's pulse ceased years ago. As long as ASU is in the FCS, the Southern Conference is the best fit, IMO.

[asumike83]

I can't speak for any other ASU fans and I'm not sure what prompted this, but I love the Southern Conference. Unless we can get a bid to join Conference USA, I am perfectly happy to stay put.

[Apphole]

The same reason Boise fans hated the WAC.

[SpeedkingATL]

I can't speak for any other ASU fans and I'm not sure what prompted this, but I love the Southern Conference. Unless we can get a bid to join Conference USA, I am perfectly happy to stay put.

I agree with asumike83. I think a move to C-USA would be very desirable but I have no issue with the SoCon. We have great rivalrys with GaSo and Furman and I do enjoy playoff football. A move to FBS football would be a natural progression for the program and for the university as a whole which continues to grow and improve and C-USA would provide more schools of similar size and comittment to football.

[AshevilleApp2]

I'm happy in the Southern Conference and hope we stay.

[Apphole]

There are a lot of reasons why App fans have become increasingly weary of the SoCon. Ill try to be concise about this. BTW they pretty well mirror reasons for moving to the FBS.

1. We have an FBS size stadium and fan base. From a guy who has been to alot of home and away games, the difference is alarming. I've been with a lot of people on their first conference away game and I've seen a lot WTF faces when we walked into the other school's stadium. We go from 30k+, a loud and electric atmosphere, multi-million dolor facilities to TINY, quiet, high school sized stadiums. We just don't fit in. GaSo has a great following and their stadium atmosphere is very similar, but if you've been to the Rock in recent years you know that even Paulson no longer compares.

2. Winning all but 1-2 games a year is great, but it does little to excite. SoCon fans should empathize when it comes to wanting to be the underdog at least some of the time. Over the past 6 years we've only had a handfull of games in which we wer'ent favored by at least 5 points.

3. Our accomplishments are constantly undermined by the fact that we're in the SoCon. Yes we got killed by UF and LSU. Its the SEC aka the NFL jr, but look at our other recent FBS games. We had a very close game with NC State, beat #5 in the nation Michigan, and were robbed by ECU (Armanti had been attacked by a lawnmower, lost by 5 and had a missed FG and a punt snap over the head for a safety which accounts for the 5 points. Not to mention we were using our 3rd string QB and playing away, but I digress) We ARE on par with alot of these schools and we are just brushed off because we're in the FCS and especially because we're in the SoCon. It’s frustrating at points to be where we are and it creates resentment in our fan base towards the SmallCon.

[Appattk]

When the SOCON added yet another small private school it showed me that they were quietly telling us "larger" public institutions that our time was done.... THAT is why I don't like the SOCON

[Apphole]

http://www.playattherock.com/asu-game-day.php

Case-in-point this video vs whatever gameday experience you call home...

[SoCon48]

I can't speak for any other ASU fans and I'm not sure what prompted this, but I love the Southern Conference. Unless we can get a bid to join Conference USA, I am perfectly happy to stay put.

You ever read the Mountainer Message Board. In fact there is one App poster on the AGS who has as his signature one pertaining to his disdain.

[SoCon48]

There are a lot of reasons why App fans have become increasingly weary of the SoCon. Ill try to be concise about this. BTW they pretty well mirror reasons for moving to the FBS.

1. We have an FBS size stadium and fan base. From a guy who has been to alot of home and away games, the difference is alarming. I've been with a lot of people on their first conference away game and I've seen a lot WTF faces when we walked into the other school's stadium. We go from 30k+, a loud and electric atmosphere, multi-million dolor facilities to TINY, quiet, high school sized stadiums. We just don't fit in. GaSo has a great following and their stadium atmosphere is very similar, but if you've been to the Rock in recent years you know that even Paulson no longer compares.

2. Winning all but 1-2 games a year is great, but it does little to excite. SoCon fans should empathize when it comes to wanting to be the underdog at least some of the time. Over the past 6 years we've only had a handfull of games in which we wer'ent favored by at least 5 points.

3. Our accomplishments are constantly undermined by the fact that we're in the SoCon. Yes we got killed by UF and LSU. Its the SEC aka the NFL jr, but look at our other recent FBS games. We had a very close game with NC State, beat #5 in the nation Michigan, and were robbed by ECU (Armanti had been attacked by a lawnmower, lost by 5 and had a missed FG and a punt snap over the head for a safety which accounts for the 5 points. Not to mention we were using our 3rd string QB and playing away, but I digress) We ARE on par with alot of these schools and we are just brushed off because we're in the FCS and especially because we're in the SoCon. It’s frustrating at points to be where we are and it creates resentment in our fan base towards the SmallCon.

What's wrong with being the big fish in a small pond? Just sayin' :)

[SoCon48]

Just me, but I've never been to an App game, I didn't enjoy..including many losses.
Too, playing a top 20 FBS school or the like a season is a lot diff than facing 5 or 6 of them a season.

[Sly Fox]

I remember when my alma mater wanted to get into the SoCon. Frankly it isn't all that appealing anymore ... particularly if you subtract visits to Boone & Statesboro from the equation.

[SoCon48]

When the SOCON added yet another small private school it showed me that they were quietly telling us "larger" public institutions that our time was done.... THAT is why I don't like the SOCON

I agree fully but what other large public expressed interest in the SoCon? Elon I halfway understood, but I don't see any logic in adding Samford other than their coach.

[Sly Fox]

Coastal continues to grow and the privates had no desire to bring them into the fold. The majority of the SoCon seems to have visions of becoming a southern Ivy or Patriot League with a full complement of scholarships and entrance to the FCS Tournament. That's perfectly cool for the Furmans & Woffords of the world. But not for others ... including a private school in Virginia where I graduated.

[SoCon48]

I can't speak for any other ASU fans and I'm not sure what prompted this, but I love the Southern Conference. Unless we can get a bid to join Conference USA, I am perfectly happy to stay put.

I agree.

[Apphole]

what other large public expressed interest in the SoCon?

J'Ville St.

[SoCon48]

Coastal continues to grow and the privates had no desire to bring them into the fold. The majority of the SoCon seems to have visions of becoming a southern Ivy or Patriot League with a full complement of scholarships and entrance to the FCS Tournament. That's perfectly cool for the Furmans & Woffords of the world. But not for others ... including a private school in Virginia where I graduated.

Their academics really sucked at the time they were looking. Especially the academics of their athletes.

[SoCon48]

J'Ville St.

You know for a fact they petitioned the SoCon? Too, at the time Elon was being considered, the SoCon commisioner(Danny Boy) was a former Elon faculty member, I seem to recall. The SoCon was dead set on keeping a small foot print when Elon was being looked at.
I wanted to see A&T express interest. I think they would have developed their program immensely in the SoCon.

[gophoenix]

J'Ville St.

No, they didn't. some of their fans did. Big difference.

[gophoenix]

Coastal continues to grow and the privates had no desire to bring them into the fold. The majority of the SoCon seems to have visions of becoming a southern Ivy or Patriot League with a full complement of scholarships and entrance to the FCS Tournament. That's perfectly cool for the Furmans & Woffords of the world. But not for others ... including a private school in Virginia where I graduated.

Irony. Listening to you guys talk like you know anything about Coastal's lack of an invitation now.

Elon, App and Western supported Coastal.
GSU, Furman, Wofford AND The Citadel were against.
Charleston, Davidson and UNCG wouldn't have voted.

The support was mixed as both public schools and private schools were for and against Coastal. So, please, get your facts straight.

What else was a problem? Why on Earth, even in Jax St was interested, would the SoCon go after a school that is positioning itself as a short-timer in FCS? Seriously. What does it serve to further reduce stability if Jax St, GSU and App all left? Even with that, Jax State was not interested, their fans were.

With that, who else is there? A&M has their problems. A&T had even more problems at that time. And, believe it or not, SC State is a school the size of basically Elon. And on top of that, MEAC type schools offer some of the fewest amount of Olympic sports of any schools in the country in D-I.

[PaladinFan]

Again, if I hear one more supposedly knowledge fan suggest that the private schools of the SoCon are trying to blackball non-private schools from entering the conference I'm going to pull what's left of my hair out, I really am. For most of us, that is complete and utter speculation. What you think is the case and what might actually be the case aren't often the same thing.

[ElonPride]

Again, if I hear one more supposedly knowledge fan suggest that the private schools of the SoCon are trying to blackball non-private schools from entering the conference I'm going to pull what's left of my hair out, I really am. For most of us, that is complete and utter speculation. What you think is the case and what might actually be the case aren't often the same thing.

Just shake your head an move on.......it's not worth losing the hair.xbeerchugx

Anyway.....SoCon officials don't just simply extend an offer, SoCon schools vote on membership, correct?

[JSU02]

No, they didn't. some of their fans did. Big difference.
NO, JSU did.

Around 2000ish when we where in the Southland for football and A-Sun for all other sports, the university wanted to consolidate them all into one conference. At that time JSU (and I assume Samford as well) wanted into the SoCon as it made sense geographically but were turned down (the small/private school were totally against us). After a few years in the OVC, JSU realized FBS would be better for the school in the long run and saw no need to change conferences again if they intended to go FBS in a few years. During that time Samford decided to give the SoCon another shot after ETSU got the boot, and they got in. All of this of course was right before the moratorium went into effect (the trustees already decided to begin a feasibility study prior to the moratorium, around the time TxST decided to).

[Apphole]

Regardless of how the conference got this way is irrelevant at this point. It is in our best interest to move up and out of the SmallCon. Until that happens, me and countless others will bad mouth the SoCon because it's keepin' a brotha down. Perhaps after we make the move, we can fondly reflect on our days of being the large mouth bass in the minnow pond SoCon.

[PaladinFan]

Regardless of how the conference got this way is irrelevant at this point. It is in our best interest to move up and out of the SmallCon. Until that happens, me and countless others will bad mouth the SoCon because it's keepin' a brotha down. Perhaps after we make the move, we can fondly reflect on our days of being the large mouth bass in the minnow pond SoCon.

You also need to recognize that App wouldn't be where it is without the "SmallCon." If anything, the SoCon has done everything but keep a brotha down.

[chattownmocs]

App State better go now if they are going. Noone is going to want them after Chattanooga starts beating them down every year :)

[Apphole]

App State better go now if they are going. Noone is going to want them after Chattanooga starts beating them down every year :)

Gotta learn how to kick a field goal first. ;-)

[Skjellyfetti]

App State better go now if they are going. Noone is going to want them after Chattanooga starts beating them down every year :)

Y'all beat us down this year... just have to learn to do it for more than 3 quarters.

[Eagle22]

No, they didn't. some of their fans did. Big difference.

Depends on what time frame you are talking.

In the late 1990's, JSU definitely courted interest from the SoCon, at least five years before Elon was in the league.

[chattanoogamocs]

The history of the SoCon is interesting to look at when debating "privates vs publics"

The first big wave of schools that formed the conference were primarily large publics (with privates sprinkled in).

Then after the exodus of the SEC and the ACC, the league was composed of mainly small publics (with "private school personas", ie VMI and the Citadel) and privates.

In 1970, the SoCon was composed of...

VMI, the Citadel, Davidson, Furman, GWU, W&M, Richmond and ECU.

GWU left in 1970 and made way for ASU. Which opened the flood gates of public schools in the 70's (I don't know if it is true, but some claim UR and W&M left because they didn't like all these new publics with "low academic standards" joining the SoCon),

UR left in '76 (so did ECU), W&M left a year later, just as...

Marshall, Chattanooga and Western (+ ETSU in '78) were joining the league. After a quiet '80's, the conference added 2 more public schools (GSU and UNCG)...meaning that in a stretch from 1971 to 1997, the conference picked SEVEN public schools in a row.

After that, they added Wofford, CofC (public), Elon and Samford.

My point? The SoCon has ebbed and flowed between privates and publics, large and small, since it was formed in 1921.

[jmufan999]

2. Winning all but 1-2 games a year is great, but it does little to excite.

you realize how spoiled this sounds, right?

this is like one of those Sweet 16 girls that goes, "Daddy only gives me a $100/week allowance... what a jerk!"

[AppMan]

No, they didn't. some of their fans did. Big difference.

Jax State was definitely on the SoCon's radar. Coastal's academics kept them from being a serious contender for a bid.

After being involved with this league for 35 years, several as a member of the media, I can say without a doubt there is some bias against the public schools. Furman, The Citadel, and Davidson have been a part of the conference for 75 years and consider the big private schools interlopers. I'm convinced some of the old heads still blame ASU, UTC, and WCU for Richmond and W&M splitting back in the mid 70's and braking up their little utopian world. Low enrollments and high academics equals an even playing field. Actually, I can't say I blame them and think it would be great for The Citadel, Davidson, Elon, Furman, Richmond, Samford, VMI, and Wofford to be in the same conference. Just as I think ASU, Delaware, GSU, Ga State, Jax State, JMU, Liberty, ODU, and UNCC would make for an awesome conference. It is all about being aligned with like minded schools. The wants, needs and desires of a 20,000 student university are far different from that of one with 1400 students.

[chattanoogamocs]

There is also something to be said for the fact that the admins for universities look at the entire school when considering a program...most on this board just look at football (or football, basketball and/or baseball). There is so much more to consider...total number of sports, overall funding, academics, facilities and on and on.

But to go back to the original discussion. Honestly, it irks me a bit with the attitude of many ASU fans too. So maybe your football program has outgrown FCS...that's cool, move up if you wish, I hope it goes well. But that is no reason to constantly trash the conference that took you in to DI, when probably no one else would have. The SoCon has benefited from ASU over the year and ASU has benefited from the SoCon. If their is going to be a divorce, why not make it an amicable one? :)

[Apphole]

you realize how spoiled this sounds, right?

this is like one of those Sweet 16 girls that goes, "Daddy only gives me a $100/week allowance... what a jerk!"

If the current JMU program played in the SoCon and ASU didn't exist, you'd be singing the same tune. It's just the way it is over the past 6 or so years in conference.

[Saint3333]

If there is a divorce do we have to pay child support?

[jmufan999]

If the current JMU program played in the SoCon and ASU didn't exist, you'd be singing the same tune. It's just the way it is over the past 6 or so years in conference.

agree to disagree, i guess.

[SoCon48]

There is also something to be said for the fact that the admins for universities look at the entire school when considering a program...most on this board just look at football (or football, basketball and/or baseball). There is so much more to consider...total number of sports, overall funding, academics, facilities and on and on.

But to go back to the original discussion. Honestly, it irks me a bit with the attitude of many ASU fans too. So maybe your football program has outgrown FCS...that's cool, move up if you wish, I hope it goes well. But that is no reason to constantly trash the conference that took you in to DI, when probably no one else would have. The SoCon has benefited from ASU over the year and ASU has benefited from the SoCon. If their is going to be a divorce, why not make it an amicable one? :)

Great objective post! Kudos.

[SoCon48]

The history of the SoCon is interesting to look at when debating "privates vs publics"

The first big wave of schools that formed the conference were primarily large publics (with privates sprinkled in).

Then after the exodus of the SEC and the ACC, the league was composed of mainly small publics (with "private school personas", ie VMI and the Citadel) and privates.

In 1970, the SoCon was composed of...

VMI, the Citadel, Davidson, Furman, GWU, W&M, Richmond and ECU.

GWU left in 1970 and made way for ASU. Which opened the flood gates of public schools in the 70's (I don't know if it is true, but some claim UR and W&M left because they didn't like all these new publics with "low academic standards" joining the SoCon),UR left in '76 (so did ECU), W&M left a year later, just as...

Marshall, Chattanooga and Western (+ ETSU in '78) were joining the league. After a quiet '80's, the conference added 2 more public schools (GSU and UNCG)...meaning that in a stretch from 1971 to 1997, the conference picked SEVEN public schools in a row.

After that, they added Wofford, CofC (public), Elon and Samford.

My point? The SoCon has ebbed and flowed between privates and publics, large and small, since it was formed in 1921.

Spot on especially what I colored red. I remember all too well the press releases when App and WCU were joining. (I believe WCU joined a year or two post ASU.)

[SoCon48]

Just shake your head an move on.......it's not worth losing the hair.xbeerchugx

Anyway.....SoCon officials don't just simply extend an offer, SoCon schools vote on membership, correct?

Yes but wiithout the support of the conference officials (aka the PTB), it never comes to a vote.

[chattanoogamocs]

If there is a divorce do we have to pay child support?

Child support is based on how much notice you give before you leave. :)

[T-Dog]

Child support is based on how much notice you give before you leave. :)

150K with more than 2 years notice, 300K without.

[asumike83]

If a bid from Conference USA does materialize, ASU would be foolish not to take it. However, I do love SoCon football and if our only options are WAC/Sun Belt, I would be shocked if we do not stay put.

The fact is, the SoCon had 5 1-AA National Championships before ASU won their first. Considering that GSU also won 4 before joining the conference, there is more football history among the current SoCon programs than any other conference, hands down. If you don't think having those teams on the schedule helped ASU from a recruiting and attendance standpoint before they were a national power, you're crazy. There is no doubt that ASU has been carrying the flag for this conference in the postseason the past half decade, but the SoCon did plenty for ASU as well.

[SoCon48]

If a bid from Conference USA does materialize, ASU would be foolish not to take it. However, I do love SoCon football and if our only options are WAC/Sun Belt, I would be shocked if we do not stay put.

The fact is, the SoCon had 5 1-AA National Championships before ASU won their first. Considering that GSU also won 4 before joining the conference, there is more football history among the current SoCon programs than any other conference, hands down. If you don't think having those teams on the schedule helped ASU from a recruiting and attendance standpoint before they were a national power, you're crazy. There is no doubt that ASU has been carrying the flag for this conference in the postseason the past half decade, but the SoCon did plenty for ASU as well.

AMEN!

[Apphole]

That's all very heart warming, but the thread is asking why App fans seem so resentful toward the SoCon sometimes. The answer is we CURRENTLY are being held back by our SmallCon membership and we hate being lumped with schools that CURRENTLY don't share our interest etc. Before this period, App fans didn't feel this way. After we move, we won't again. It's very simple folks and a history lesson doesn't change any of that. I love App football so of course I love SoCon football, but the reasons I gave are the source of the resentment of myself and many others. It is a gripe about a current event, not an ungreatful complaint about the past. Ask an ECU fan how they feel about the SoCon. "Sure it was great back then, we appreciate everything blah blah blah, but we're big time now and I'm sure glad I'm not still in the PrivateCon."

[seantaylor]

GSU at 20,000 students and the success we've had has no business still being in this division except for our AD who is the worst in the country. GSU will have 25,000 students by 2015 according to our prez. I just can't fathom why Sammy Baker is still on the job. Appy will be gone before us and that is because of one man.

[Apphole]

But I don't mean to profess that my views are that of our fan base as a whole. There are some of us who would love to stay in the SoCon and love their cheap tickets and their close parking spaces........

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Temple is going to leave the MAC at some point. I'm not sure where we'll end up but i don't see CUSA being our final destination. It would not shock me if a new all sport FBS conference evolved from a combination of Temple, Umass, Buffalo, Charlotte, ECU, Marshall, JMU, App State and Georgia State.

[Go Apps]

As an avid App Fan - i am not interested in moving to Conference USA and want to see App stay put in the SoCon to which I have no issue with....If ASU decides to move up - I believe it will lose many followers myself included just not interested in a noboby conference and no playoffs - we have it really good right now a move would kill it!

[PaladinFan]

Spot on especially what I colored red. I remember all too well the press releases when App and WCU were joining. (I believe WCU joined a year or two post ASU.)

Let's not do something as silly as actually support reasoning with facts. How are we going to factor in all of our senseless conjectures?

What still gets me is there are twelve schools in the SoCon. Seven are public schools. I realize that everyone thinks the private schools are some sort of power broker in all of this, but the reality is they are a minority. If you have a problem with the conference make up, look to your own administrations.

[chattownmocs]

The gap between App State and the rest of this conference is rapidly shrinking. On the national scale it has been 3 years since they won a national championship. It seems to me the window to bolt is closing. Maybe that is why they want to get out so bad.

[Saint3333]

As an avid App Fan - i am not interested in moving to Conference USA and want to see App stay put in the SoCon to which I have no issue with....If ASU decides to move up - I believe it will lose many followers myself included just not interested in a noboby conference and no playoffs - we have it really good right now a move would kill it!

Define "many". I just don't get this type of statement. Any true ASU fans that stops going to games and/or stops donating to the Yosef Club either way ASU goes really wasn't a true ASU to begin with. I'll continue to support ASU at the FCS or FBS level.

[DFW HOYA]

It would not shock me if a new all sport FBS conference evolved from a combination of Temple, Umass, Buffalo, Charlotte, ECU, Marshall, JMU, App State and Georgia State.

Can't see a Temple-Georgia State or Temple-ECU game selling many tickets at the Liacouras Center.

[The Moody1]

As an avid App Fan - i am not interested in moving to Conference USA and want to see App stay put in the SoCon to which I have no issue with....If ASU decides to move up - I believe it will lose many followers myself included just not interested in a noboby conference and no playoffs - we have it really good right now a move would kill it!

IMO- App would gain far more fans with a move to C-USA than they would lose. If C-USA is a nobody conference, what is the SoCon?

[The Moody1]

The gap between App State and the rest of this conference is rapidly shrinking. On the national scale it has been 3 years since they won a national championship. It seems to me the window to bolt is closing. Maybe that is why they want to get out so bad.

App wants to move to FBS to escape the impending athletic superiority of all the schools in the SoCon. How many years has it been since Chatty won a National Championship? Your post is laughable, so I hope you are joking.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

I don't really care what conference App is in, as long as it includes a yearly rivalry game against ECU.

[asumike83]

That's all very heart warming, but the thread is asking why App fans seem so resentful toward the SoCon sometimes. The answer is we CURRENTLY are being held back by our SmallCon membership and we hate being lumped with schools that CURRENTLY don't share our interest etc. Before this period, App fans didn't feel this way. After we move, we won't again. It's very simple folks and a history lesson doesn't change any of that. I love App football so of course I love SoCon football, but the reasons I gave are the source of the resentment of myself and many others. It is a gripe about a current event, not an ungreatful complaint about the past. Ask an ECU fan how they feel about the SoCon. "Sure it was great back then, we appreciate everything blah blah blah, but we're big time now and I'm sure glad I'm not still in the PrivateCon."

I really do not see how the SoCon is holding us back at all. If our feasibility study determines that we're ready to move up and we get a bid from a good conference, nobody in the SoCon is going to stop us. My point was that playing in the most historically prestigious conference at the FCS level is a big reason why we are ready for a move. Just because the change didn't happen overnight like many ASU fans wish doesn't mean that our current conference affiliation is to blame.

[PaladinFan]

I really do not see how the SoCon is holding us back at all. If our feasibility study determines that we're ready to move up and we get a bid from a good conference, nobody in the SoCon is going to stop us. My point was that playing in the most historically prestigious conference at the FCS level is a big reason why we are ready for a move. Just because the change didn't happen overnight like many ASU fans wish doesn't mean that our current conference affiliation is to blame.

Thoughtful insight. App can move up, or not, but the SoCon is not to blame. Like I said earlier, App State wouldn't be where it is today without this conference.

Besides, I'm suprised App fans want to move whilst they still have a losing record against Furman :)

[Apphole]

As much as I hate to say it ASUmike, I feel like if we were in the CAA our transition would be more seamless. Yeah, I just threw up in my mouth a little, but I do believe it to be the case. I feel like I've come off as a huge SoCon hater which I am not. I was just trying to answer the original question and express my own grievances. If we move up or not I will be just as avid a fan. Go Apps please tell me, what ACC school are you a huge fan of?

[Saint3333]

I'm fine leaving the SoCon on a 9-1 run over Furman, but hey the 70's were good for you guys ;-).

[gophoenix]

NO, JSU did.

Around 2000ish when we where in the Southland for football and A-Sun for all other sports, the university wanted to consolidate them all into one conference. At that time JSU (and I assume Samford as well) wanted into the SoCon as it made sense geographically but were turned down (the small/private school were totally against us). After a few years in the OVC, JSU realized FBS would be better for the school in the long run and saw no need to change conferences again if they intended to go FBS in a few years. During that time Samford decided to give the SoCon another shot after ETSU got the boot, and they got in. All of this of course was right before the moratorium went into effect (the trustees already decided to begin a feasibility study prior to the moratorium, around the time TxST decided to).

In 2000, when no spot was available, and when a spot came up, the interest wasn't there. Which proves just what I said.

[JSU02]

In 2000, when no spot was available, and when a spot came up, the interest wasn't there. Which proves just what I said.

Your information is wrong.

[gophoenix]

Your information is wrong.

How is it wrong. Interest was expressed in 2000. No spot was available in 2000. By the time VMI announced intentions, Jacksonville State had already announced the move and entry/exit from Southland/TAAC to OVC. Then, once ETSU was voted out (which was again a public/private split), Jacksonville State was publicly announcing the intent to go to FBS, regardless of the moratorium. And from a conference looking for stability, taking in a Samford that's committed vs a Jacksonville State that probably isn't (coupled with a probability that GSU and App leave), taking a Jacksonville State is a risk.

So a nice team SoCon with App/GSU/Jax State could easily drop to 6 members; coupled with a risky UTC that was reported of being unhappy. That is dangerously close to a conference that is at great risk. Samford was much less of a risk, as was Elon, at least for long term conference stability, which is ultimately what the conference is gunning for. Coastal has academic issues. Jax State was a flight risk. Who else is there that's public short of MEAC schools which, at the time, lacked the leadership to leave an HBCU conference.


There you go.

[gophoenix]

Many of you are coming off as SoCon haters, as well as conspiracy theorists thinking the private schools are out to get App. App moving up or not is great for App. But it is not a public vs private school issue or a SoCon issue that many fans make it out to be.

[JSU02]

How is it wrong. Interest was expressed in 2000. No spot was available in 2000. By the time VMI announced intentions, Jacksonville State had already announced the move and entry/exit from Southland/TAAC to OVC. Then, once ETSU was voted out (which was again a public/private split), Jacksonville State was publicly announcing the intent to go to FBS, regardless of the moratorium. And from a conference looking for stability, taking in a Samford that's committed vs a Jacksonville State that probably isn't (coupled with a probability that GSU and App leave), taking a Jacksonville State is a risk.

So a nice team SoCon with App/GSU/Jax State could easily drop to 6 members; coupled with a risky UTC that was reported of being unhappy. That is dangerously close to a conference that is at great risk. Samford was much less of a risk, as was Elon, at least for long term conference stability, which is ultimately what the conference is gunning for. Coastal has academic issues. Jax State was a flight risk. Who else is there that's public short of MEAC schools which, at the time, lacked the leadership to leave an HBCU conference.


There you go.

Your timeline is roughly correct (possibly off by a year or 2), but I was referring that your assertion that JSU had expressed no interest in the SoCon and that only JSU fans had. At the time of its SoCon inquiry, JSU was not a flight risk. And of course Samford isn't a flight risk, they are a small southern private school who reapplied to get into what is becoming the small private southern school conference. I bet ASU will be replaced with Presby as soon as they leave.

[gophoenix]

Your timeline is roughly correct (possibly off by a year or 2), but I was referring that your assertion that JSU had expressed no interest in the SoCon and that only JSU fans had. At the time of its SoCon inquiry, JSU was not a flight risk. And of course Samford isn't a flight risk, they are a small southern private school who reapplied to get into what is becoming the small private southern school conference. I bet ASU will be replaced with Presby as soon as they leave.

Ah the typical response. Presby. I bet they aren't. In fact, I know they won't be. You have nothing to back that up. You have nothing that indicates that. And it is a completely baseless assertion on your part other than the typical Southern Private school assertion that so many of you have about the SoCon. The next school brought in will be public, you can count on that.

And no, the timeline isn't off by a year or two. JSU expressed interest before a spot was available. End of story and you have no cock in this fight.

[SpeedkingATL]

Thoughtful insight. App can move up, or not, but the SoCon is not to blame. Like I said earlier, App State wouldn't be where it is today without this conference.

Besides, I'm suprised App fans want to move whilst they still have a losing record against Furman :)

Maybe we figure with the extra scholarships we could even the seris!

[Saint3333]

^
^
^
Post of the month.

[gophoenix]

Do you think there is something wrong with being labeled a small private school/conference? It seems as though you find the words quite offensive...
We aren't implying that the people who go to those schools have small privates, just that they have lower enrollments and are not state funded. :)

Small and private seems to be terminology used by a number of fans to indicate lesser and inferior. Maybe not by you or me; but a number of people use that to indicate a tongue in cheek way to smack certain fans around. So, yes, in a way, it is. Go look at the SmallCon reference amidst other items.

The thing is, and this is where me and some Wofford and Furman fans are getting tired of it, is that you never hear "small publics" in the labe (ie Western, Coastal or The Citadel). It is always the other. Or even the fact that larger publics (ie Charleston and UNCG) are still here, and still will be here. So, why is it that private schools are the ones singled out here.

[PaladinFan]

Do you think there is something wrong with being labeled a small private school/conference? It seems as though you find the words quite offensive...
We aren't implying that the people who go to those schools have small privates, just that they have lower enrollments and are not state funded. :)

It's not offensive, to me at least. I just think it's wrong a wrong label. More accurate is "middle-tier state institution" conference, but that would ruffle some feathers too. But why even call it that?

To me, its just a conference. Its a collection of the top FCS football programs in the Southeast. Its ridiculous to think that the SoCon is holding a program back. If you are in playing FCS football and in this region of the country, it doesn't get any better. If you want to move on to something else somewhere else, all my best.

[OL FU]

Regardless of how the conference got this way is irrelevant at this point. It is in our best interest to move up and out of the SmallCon. Until that happens, me and countless others will bad mouth the SoCon because it's keepin' a brotha down. Perhaps after we make the move, we can fondly reflect on our days of being the large mouth bass in the minnow pond SoCon.

Now you see that's the problem. Ain't nothin' keeping you down (if anything is) but yourself. I personally would hate to see you go. But I don't think the SoCon could or would try to stop you. So if you wanna go. GO. Ain't nothing keeping you here but yourself.


I have always rooted for teams that left the SoCon (except for the school that shall not be named) but, as PaladinFan said, don't put down the conference that help get you where you are unless you just like sounding dumbxrolleyesx

[SoCon48]

How is it wrong. Interest was expressed in 2000. No spot was available in 2000. By the time VMI announced intentions, Jacksonville State had already announced the move and entry/exit from Southland/TAAC to OVC. Then, once ETSU was voted out (which was again a public/private split), Jacksonville State was publicly announcing the intent to go to FBS, regardless of the moratorium. And from a conference looking for stability, taking in a Samford that's committed vs a Jacksonville State that probably isn't (coupled with a probability that GSU and App leave), taking a Jacksonville State is a risk.

So a nice team SoCon with App/GSU/Jax State could easily drop to 6 members; coupled with a risky UTC that was reported of being unhappy. That is dangerously close to a conference that is at great risk. Samford was much less of a risk, as was Elon, at least for long term conference stability, which is ultimately what the conference is gunning for. Coastal has academic issues. Jax State was a flight risk. Who else is there that's public short of MEAC schools which, at the time, lacked the leadership to leave an HBCU conference.


There you go.

Good post, A--m.

[PaladinFan]

Now you see that's the problem. Ain't nothin' keeping you down (if anything is) but yourself. I personally would hate to see you go. But I don't think the SoCon could or would try to stop you. So if you wanna go. GO. Ain't nothing keeping you here but yourself.


I have always rooted for teams that left the SoCon (except for the school that shall not be named) but, as PaladinFan said, don't put down the conference that help get you where you are unless you just like sounding dumbxrolleyesx

Is it considered "living in the past" that I raise my glass whenever the unspoken team loses?

[gophoenix]

Regardless of how the conference got this way is irrelevant at this point. It is in our best interest to move up and out of the SmallCon. Until that happens, me and countless others will bad mouth the SoCon because it's keepin' a brotha down. Perhaps after we make the move, we can fondly reflect on our days of being the large mouth bass in the minnow pond SoCon.

So, keepin' a brother down. So, App is a brotha?
21% of UNCG is this minority
21% of GSU
16% of UTC
14% of Elon
8% of Samford
7% of CofC
7% of Furman
6% of Wofford
5% of Western
5% of Davidson
3% of App

Wow, I'd hardly call App a brother. In fact, I am pretty offended that you even used that term in reference to App. If anything, the demographics say exactly the reverse.


That's all very heart warming, but the thread is asking why App fans seem so resentful toward the SoCon sometimes. The answer is we CURRENTLY are being held back by our SmallCon membership and we hate being lumped with schools that CURRENTLY don't share our interest etc. Before this period, App fans didn't feel this way. After we move, we won't again. It's very simple folks and a history lesson doesn't change any of that. I love App football so of course I love SoCon football, but the reasons I gave are the source of the resentment of myself and many others. It is a gripe about a current event, not an ungreatful complaint about the past. Ask an ECU fan how they feel about the SoCon. "Sure it was great back then, we appreciate everything blah blah blah, but we're big time now and I'm sure glad I'm not still in the PrivateCon."

I just asked three, and none of them said anything like that. In fact, I have never heard anyone use the SmallCon and PrivateCon references outside of certain members of the App Camp.

[AppMan]

So, keepin' a brother down. So, App is a brotha?
21% of UNCG is this minority
21% of GSU
16% of UTC
14% of Elon
8% of Samford
7% of CofC
7% of Furman
6% of Wofford
5% of Western
5% of Davidson
3% of App

Wow, I'd hardly call App a brother. In fact, I am pretty offended that you even used that term in reference to App. If anything, the demographics say exactly the reverse.



I just asked three, and none of them said anything like that. In fact, I have never heard anyone use the SmallCon and PrivateCon references outside of certain members of the App Camp.

They just didn't want to hurt your feelings. For the record, I've wanted out since 1982 when the league was kicked down to 1-aa and I'm not a fan of the non-football schools either.

[james_lawfirm]

Why do so many Appalachian fans constantly diss the Southern Conference? That horse's pulse ceased years ago. As long as ASU is in the FCS, the Southern Conference is the best fit, IMO.

First, I'll watch ASU football where ever, when ever & who ever we play.

Time was, I used to think I would not like a move to FBS. I had all the same reasons mentioned throughout this thread ... big fish, small pond ... etcetera.

For the last three seasons, I have been to every home & away game (with about two exceptions).

I started to change my mind about a move up with the ECU game and last year's Sanford game. ECU was a lot of fun for everyone, them & us. The fans were hot in the sun, but that was OK, the vendors were well stocked with water & other concessions.

Not so at the Sanford game. There were about 8,500 there (1/3 were App fans) & it was equally hot as at the ECU game. Embarrassingly, Sammy ran out of WATER about halftime!!! Most of the Sammy fans left at halftime!!!!???? I saw one of our player's Mom pass out from the heat & they had to call the emergency personnel.

I don't know about everyone else, but it seems to me that if a school suffers from such a poor support of their team that their students don't attend the game & such a lack of planning that they cannot keep the concessions full for visitors, then I do not care to return. I was down at Sammy with my cousin from Tuscaloosa (Yep, a big 'bama fan). All I can say is that it was embarrassing. High school football has better attendance & support.

There's more to a football game than the game. If the school cannot figure that out, then I do not want to go back. And, don't even get me started about Richmond, at least when they rented the public stadium for that playoff game. That was dreadful.

So, yeah, if the powers that be decide to move up, then I'll be there. And, if they decide to stay put, I'll be there.

Go App!

[SpiritCymbal]

When the SOCON added yet another small private school it showed me that they were quietly telling us "larger" public institutions that our time was done.... THAT is why I don't like the SOCON

+1 from a GSU fan.

[ThompsonThe]

[QUOTE=PaladinFan;1617446]Thoughtful insight. App can move up, or not, but the SoCon is not to blame. Like I said earlier, App State wouldn't be where it is today without this conference.

This conference, the SoCon, hasn't done anything much for anyone, not many conferences do, it's the schools and teams that do things. I go back to when the NCAA decided the SoCon would be put into the small college category (eventually became 1-AA and then FCS). Appalachian was given the option to stay major college, or stay in the SoCon and be relegated to small college. The NCAA did this partially because we had won football games the year before with
South Carolina, Wake Forest, ECU . Marshall, etc. The administration we had then decided to stay in the SoCon because we enjoyed playing Furman in football. East Carolina was literally begging App State to stay major college football with them. Our administration was leaning with staying major college, but at the last minute decided to stay in the SoCon. So yes, you can say that App State wouldn't be where it is today without the SoCon, but that actually has bad connotations to App State fans that have been around for awhile.

[ThompsonThe]

So, keepin' a brother down. So, App is a brotha?

Wow, I'd hardly call App a brother. In fact, I am pretty offended that you even used that term in reference to App. If anything, the demographics say exactly the reverse.
.

Must be that elon "edumacation".
The term "Brother" has been used by whites long before it was used by minorities. Look at some of the 1920's and 1930's movies; the white men and women are using it in many of those films talking to each other. Remember the song, "Brother can you spare a dime?" , written in 1931 and used in FDR campaign? There are many many other examples and terminology goes back much longer.

[elcid83]

As a Citadel graduate, it would not hurt my feelings to see App. St. and Ga. Southern move on to bigger and better things. If you are consistently a bottom dweller, it is no fun to watch only 3 or 4 teams have a chance to win your conference year after year [the "or 4" is aimed at the Furman folks if your new coaching staff can bring you back to competitive football]. When the two big boys are gone, and I think they will be gone, that will give 2 more teams an opportunity to be competitive.

Go Bulldogs!

[ThompsonThe]

Naturally it is only App State's decision to make. We may kid about the SoCon having so many small private schools, but I don't know of anyone that doesn't have respect for the rich tradition of the SoCon. But that tradition is made up of present and former members. Without those schools a conference is just a name only.
It actually would help the SoCon schools in some ways for App State to move to an FBS conference. We have won or shared the last six Southern Conference football championships, and what won 30 or more Commissioner's Cups and a bunch of Germann Cup's (for top men's and women's athletic programs in the conference). This would give another school a much better chance to win them.
Many SoCon teams charge more for their home games with App State or GaSo because of higher attendance. But attendance might be brought up by schools having a better shot at winning the conference title, and winning more games overall. Who knows, Western Carolina might win more games. They might even join these forums. Nah!

[SoCon48]

So, keepin' a brother down. So, App is a brotha?
21% of UNCG is this minority
21% of GSU
16% of UTC
14% of Elon
8% of Samford
7% of CofC
7% of Furman
6% of Wofford
5% of Western
5% of Davidson
3% of App

Wow, I'd hardly call App a brother. In fact, I am pretty offended that you even used that term in reference to App. If anything, the demographics say exactly the reverse.



I just asked three, and none of them said anything like that. In fact, I have never heard anyone use the SmallCon and PrivateCon references outside of certain members of the App Camp.

I just asked three, and none of them said anything like that.

In fact, I have never heard anyone use the SmallCon and PrivateCon references outside of certain members of the App Camp.

You are exactly right, Adam. And I'm not one of them.

[PaladinFan]

Naturally it is only App State's decision to make. We may kid about the SoCon having so many small private schools, but I don't know of anyone that doesn't have respect for the rich tradition of the SoCon. But that tradition is made up of present and former members. Without those schools a conference is just a name only.
It actually would help the SoCon schools in some ways for App State to move to an FBS conference. We have won or shared the last six Southern Conference football championships, and what won 30 or more Commissioner's Cups and a bunch of Germann Cup's (for top men's and women's athletic programs in the conference). This would give another school a much better chance to win them.
Many SoCon teams charge more for their home games with App State or GaSo because of higher attendance. But attendance might be brought up by schools having a better shot at winning the conference title, and winning more games overall. Who knows, Western Carolina might win more games. They might even join these forums. Nah!

See, I don't really buy the argument. Furman has won more or shared more SoCon titles than App has (Furman won the conference eight times between 1980 and 1990). I just don't see that as a legitimate reason to invest millions more in an athletic program because your on the field product was good for a few years.

It's a "what makes sense for the university" argument. All these suggestions that teams would be better off, that App is too good right now, etc. are just hogwash. It either makes sense or it doesn't. I don't think how many conference championships you have should matter even a little bit.

[SoCon48]

Must be that elon "edumacation".
The term "Brother" has been used by whites long before it was used by minorities. Look at some of the 1920's and 1930's movies; the white men and women are using it in many of those films talking to each other. Remember the song, "Brother can you spare a dime?" , written in 1931 and used in FDR campaign? There are many many other examples and terminology goes back much longer.

Exactly. Not to mention that some churches' members address each other as Sister and Brother.
Political correctness sux.

[SoCon48]

Who is the unspoken team?

[gophoenix]

When the SOCON added yet another small private school it showed me that they were quietly telling us "larger" public institutions that our time was done.... THAT is why I don't like the SOCON

The schools vote on conference members:
App, GSU, WCU and UTC voted for Wofford
App, GSU, WCU and UTC voted for Samford
GSU, WCU and UTC voted for Elon

None of them voted again any of the three.

The conference doesn't add schools that the schools do not support. a 3/4 majority vote is required to add a member. The non-football schools abstain from football votes. In all these votes, the public schools had a majority

Wofford was voted in by a conference makeup that was 87% public for the vote
Elon was voted in by a conference makeup that was 75% for the vote
Samford was voted in by a conference makeup that was 62% of the vote

The public schools seems to have done this, not the conference and the private schools have never had a majority for the votes.

[SoCon48]

Samford was voted in by a conference makeup that was 62% of the vote

That's pretty pathetic.

[Baldy]

GSU at 20,000 students and the success we've had has no business still being in this division except for our AD who is the worst in the country. GSU will have 25,000 students by 2015 according to our prez. I just can't fathom why Sammy Baker is still on the job. Appy will be gone before us and that is because of one man.
Bruce Grube, period.

[PaladinFan]

Samford was voted in by a conference makeup that was 62% of the vote

That's pretty pathetic.

Why?

The whole point of throwing out actual facts is to demonstrate that App State, along with the other public institutions, have made the SoCon what it is. It is foolishness for a school to vote in conference members and then whine that they joined. It is more foolishness to make the argument that the SoCon is a private school league when the public institutions make up the majority.

Again, if App wants to leave, fine, but enough with these ridiculous reasons that are simply unsupportable.

[gophoenix]

Samford was voted in by a conference makeup that was 62% of the vote

That's pretty pathetic.

Samford was voted in by 100% of the schools that were to vote
Wofford was voted in by 100% of the schools that were to vote
Elon was voted in by 87% of the schools that were to vote

What I was referencing originally was that public to private makeup of that schools that voted.

[Saint3333]

It's all a big conspiracy. The leaders of ASU have voted in two of the three privates to increase a demand from the fanbase to leave the SoCon.

The only other options were JSU and CCU and academics held them back from what I've heard (2nd and 3rd hand). If ASU were to leave I wonder if they would relax those thoughts in bringing in the next member? The SoCon is running out of private schools in NC & SC with above average academics. The CAA has the VA market cornered in that regard, any good ones in TN or GA?

And yes the first line is a poor attempt at a joke.

[Skjellyfetti]

regardless of the private vs. public debate and to the original question... the SoCon has lost its luster for sure. I'm in favor of moving up or would push for us to join the CAA if we have to stay FCS.

[ElonPride]

regardless of the private vs. public debate and to the original question... the SoCon has lost its luster for sure. I'm in favor of moving up or would push for us to join the CAA if we have to stay FCS.

Can't wait for the day to wave bye bye to the loudmouths.xnodx

[ThompsonThe]

It's not offensive, to me at least. I just think it's wrong a wrong label. More accurate is "middle-tier state institution" conference, but that would ruffle some feathers too. But why even call it that?

To me, its just a conference. Its a collection of the top FCS football programs in the Southeast. Its ridiculous to think that the SoCon is holding a program back. If you are in playing FCS football and in this region of the country, it doesn't get any better. If you want to move on to something else somewhere else, all my best.


Now you see that's the problem. Ain't nothin' keeping you down (if anything is) but yourself. I personally would hate to see you go. But I don't think the SoCon could or would try to stop you. So if you wanna go. GO. Ain't nothing keeping you here but yourself.


I have always rooted for teams that left the SoCon (except for the school that shall not be named) but, as PaladinFan said, don't put down the conference that help get you where you are unless you just like sounding dumbxrolleyesx

AW You care, you guys REALLY CARE. How heart warming. This is such a touchy feely moment. I just can't write anymore right now.

[gophoenix]

It's all a big conspiracy. The leaders of ASU have voted in two of the three privates to increase a demand from the fanbase to leave the SoCon.

The only other options were JSU and CCU and academics held them back from what I've heard (2nd and 3rd hand). If ASU were to leave I wonder if they would relax those thoughts in bringing in the next member? The SoCon is running out of private schools in NC & SC with above average academics. The CAA has the VA market cornered in that regard, any good ones in TN or GA?

And yes the first line is a poor attempt at a joke.

With Rhode Island going, UMass gone, what happens if GA State, UNCC, Old Dominion and Delaware also leave too? It sort of leaves Richmond, Towson and William & Mary sort of isolated. Richmond won't join the SoCon for all sports, but the other two just might if the right things happen (or vice versa for that matter).

What other schools are in the South we good Academics? A&T, Hampton, SC State is pretty good, Howard, Tenn Tech, maybe Kennesaw State, i dunno. The important thing is, the SoCon retains a central core group when App and GSU leave. If JSU had been here, that core would be much more diluted if all three were focusing on leaving.

[Skjellyfetti]

Can't wait for the day to wave bye bye to the loudmouths.xnodx

Y'all would probably have a SoCon football championship if it wasn't for the loudmouths. I understand why you're anxious.

How many years has App not won the SoCon title since Elon joined? 2? Must be frustrating.

[Saint3333]

With Rhode Island going, UMass gone, what happens if GA State, UNCC, Old Dominion and Delaware also leave too? It sort of leaves Richmond, Towson and William & Mary sort of isolated. Richmond won't join the SoCon for all sports, but the other two just might if the right things happen (or vice versa for that matter).

What other schools are in the South we good Academics? A&T, Hampton, SC State is pretty good, Howard, Tenn Tech, maybe Kennesaw State, i dunno. The important thing is, the SoCon retains a central core group when App and GSU leave. If JSU had been here, that core would be much more diluted if all three were focusing on leaving.

GP that makes too make sense to ever happen.

[ElonPride]

Y'all would probably have a SoCon football championship if it wasn't for the loudmouths. I understand why you're anxious.

How many years has App not won the SoCon title since Elon joined? 2? Must be frustrating.

Thanks for proving my point!

To a decent App fan: Saint3333, our quarterly matches will be missed.xthumbsupx Your fellow App fans, will not.

[BigApp]

Why do so many Appalachian fans constantly diss the Southern Conference? That horse's pulse ceased years ago. As long as ASU is in the FCS, the Southern Conference is the best fit, IMO.

Tell us:

1) WHY you think the SoCon is the "best fit"
2) what the SoCon has done to enhance the image of it's members
3) what the SoCon has done to improve its product

[BigApp]

...but the SoCon did plenty for ASU as well.

like what?

[BigApp]

As an avid App Fan - i am not interested in moving to Conference USA and want to see App stay put in the SoCon to which I have no issue with....If ASU decides to move up - I believe it will lose many followers myself included just not interested in a noboby conference and no playoffs - we have it really good right now a move would kill it!

kill what?

Essentially, you're saying you don't want Appalachian to improve itself?

If a move to a higher level would "lose you", then I submit you're not really an Appfan. Otherwise, you'd support the school, no matter what it does.

[BigApp]

Besides, I'm suprised App fans want to move whilst they still have a losing record against Furman :)

we're upset that you got rid of Bobby Lamb!

[SoCon48]

kill what?

Essentially, you're saying you don't want Appalachian to improve itself?

If a move to a higher level would "lose you", then I submit you're not really an Appfan. Otherwise, you'd support the school, no matter what it does.

It's debatable whether a move to the SunBelt would be an improvement other than being able to hang the FBS moniker.

[SoCon48]

Samford was voted in by 100% of the schools that were to vote
Wofford was voted in by 100% of the schools that were to vote
Elon was voted in by 87% of the schools that were to vote

What I was referencing originally was that public to private makeup of that schools that voted.

I misread your post.

[Saint3333]

Thanks for proving my point!

To a decent App fan: Saint3333, our quarterly matches will be missed.xthumbsupx Your fellow App fans, will not.

EP if we do make the move I can come back to smack you guys down every once in awhile ;-). Hey no matter what happens we still have two more years in the SoCon I'd assume.

[gophoenix]

Tell us:

1) WHY you think the SoCon is the "best fit"
2) what the SoCon has done to enhance the image of it's members
3) what the SoCon has done to improve its product

How about the other way. Why not tell us what the SoCon has done that doesn't embrace all members....

[OL FU]

AW You care, you guys REALLY CARE. How heart warming. This is such a touchy feely moment. I just can't write anymore right now.

I do care. and I don't want you guys to look dumb...............................erxsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

Naturally it is only App State's decision to make. We may kid about the SoCon having so many small private schools, but I don't know of anyone that doesn't have respect for the rich tradition of the SoCon. But that tradition is made up of present and former members. Without those schools a conference is just a name only.
It actually would help the SoCon schools in some ways for App State to move to an FBS conference. We have won or shared the last six Southern Conference football championships, and what won 30 or more Commissioner's Cups and a bunch of Germann Cup's (for top men's and women's athletic programs in the conference). This would give another school a much better chance to win them.
Many SoCon teams charge more for their home games with App State or GaSo because of higher attendance. But attendance might be brought up by schools having a better shot at winning the conference title, and winning more games overall. Who knows, Western Carolina might win more games. They might even join these forums. Nah!

not sure this is the right place to respond. I know a lot of people don't buy the argument but I don't have a problem with schools wanting to go bigger and better. I think ASU is one of the best examples of a schools that just might succeed doing so. I think Georgi Southern could to except for the stories I have heard in lacking money. Obviouslly from Furman's standpoint there is not bigger and better in Football and that is just fine with me. But it doesn't mean I don't understand the inclination for others to give it a try.

[PaladinFan]

not sure this is the right place to respond. I know a lot of people don't buy the argument but I don't have a problem with schools wanting to go bigger and better. I think ASU is one of the best examples of a schools that just might succeed doing so. I think Georgi Southern could to except for the stories I have heard in lacking money. Obviouslly from Furman's standpoint there is not bigger and better in Football and that is just find with me. But it doesn't mean I don't understand the inclination for others to give it a try.

Those are my sentiments as well. If they can pull it off, more power to them, I just think it is ludicrous to blame the conference. I don't think you blame anyone.

I'm interested to see what path they take. What if App State has a few down years and attendance drops a bit (it happened to GSU and to Furman, so it isn't inconceivable)? What if stuff that sounds really good on a message board doesn't sound so good when the University starts asking its fanbase and students for millions to float the plan in a tough economy? What if the grass really isn't all that greener?

It's easy to look at the teams that moved up with great fanfare only to flop on their face for season after season. Still, if you polled the administration at those institutions, they might well tell you they'd make the same decision again in a nano-second. Maybe they would say it has been nothing short of major burden on their schools. No way really to know that. Either way, its all speculation at the moment.

[OL FU]

It's easy to look at the teams that moved up with great fanfare only to flop on their face for season after season. .


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yqvF93v%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[SideLine Shooter]

I'm happy in the Southern Conference and hope we stay.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[AppMan]

Those are my sentiments as well. If they can pull it off, more power to them, I just think it is ludicrous to blame the conference. I don't think you blame anyone.

I'm interested to see what path they take. What if App State has a few down years and attendance drops a bit (it happened to GSU and to Furman, so it isn't inconceivable)? What if stuff that sounds really good on a message board doesn't sound so good when the University starts asking its fanbase and students for millions to float the plan in a tough economy? What if the grass really isn't all that greener?

It's easy to look at the teams that moved up with great fanfare only to flop on their face for season after season. Still, if you polled the administration at those institutions, they might well tell you they'd make the same decision again in a nano-second. Maybe they would say it has been nothing short of major burden on their schools. No way really to know that. Either way, its all speculation at the moment.

There is a big difference between blaming the conference and realizing how the latest conference additions have become a motivating factor for ASU to move on. Whether by design or necessity the SoCon has moved in an obvious direction towards smaller, private institutions. It is a clearly a direction contrary to the desires of ASU. I realize all schools vote on the additions, but when the intent becomes clear you avoid the agitation and quietly begin planning an exit strategy. ASU’s heavy hitters (not the administration) started executing such a plan when they hired Ken Peacock and gave him the mandate to advance the athletics program.

Many people do not understand is this decision is out of the hands of the everyday ASU fan. There is a political (funding) pecking order in all states and right now ASU is mired in the middle of the UNC system pack. Some may scoff at the idea this move is about gaining stature within the UNC Board and state legislature, but it is. The state wants ASU to grow to a 20,000 student population and a strategic plan has been laid out and is in the process of being implemented. Athletics is THE advertising arm of the university and these people understand if ASU is playing at the highest level the university will also be viewed in a different light on the legislative level. One only has to look at the funding ASU has received over the years in comparison to ECU. Twenty five years ago we were equals in the funding arena, now it isn’t close.

[AppMan]

An unscientific poll conducted on the oldest and most popular ASU message board had startling results. That 82% of the 194 people who voted were in favor of moving to FBS is eye opening enough, but 84% of season ticket holders were in favor of moving is what caught my attention. These numbers stunned me in the sense this board is usually dominated by pro FCS views. It is clear those making the most noise to stay FCS do not buy season tickets, nor do they belong to the Yosef Athletic Scholarship Club. Many of us have long thought the pro FCS crowd was dominated by people who do not have any skin in the game and this poll supports that notion. Many who do not want to make a commitment to the program realize more growth will force them into step up to the plate, or be relegated to general admission end zone seats and parking great distances from the stadium. The days of rolling up 20 minutes before kick off, parking close to the stadium and paying $20 to sit at midfield are long gone.

[gophoenix]

There is a big difference between blaming the conference and realizing how the latest conference additions have become a motivating factor for ASU to move on. Whether by design or necessity the SoCon has moved in an obvious direction towards smaller, private institutions. It is a clearly a direction contrary to the desires of ASU. I realize all schools vote on the additions, but when the intent becomes clear you avoid the agitation and quietly begin planning an exit strategy. ASU’s heavy hitters (not the administration) started executing such a plan when they hired Ken Peacock and gave him the mandate to advance the athletics program.

The only provable truth to any of the above paragraph is that Peacock was given a mandate to advance that athletics program. The rest is, not only not provable, but flies in the face of comments from media quoting Appalachian officials.

[AppMan]

The only provable truth to any of the above paragraph is that Peacock was given a mandate to advance that athletics program. The rest is, not only not provable, but flies in the face of comments from media quoting Appalachian officials.

You are nuts if you think ASU officials would actually go public with much of what they are thinking. I realize it may be hard for you to fathom the idea but ASU has little to nothing in common with Elon. The two institutions are light years apart in their mission and clearly going in opposite directions athletically. That is NOT a put down of Elon in any shape, form or fashion. It is just the cold, hard facts. Read my comment again. I said the latest conference additions have become "A" motivating factor, as in one of many. Not THE motivating factor for looking to move on. You guys have to stop being so defensive.

[PaladinFan]

You are nuts if you think ASU officials would actually go public with much of what they are thinking. I realize it may be hard for you to fathom the idea but ASU has little to nothing in common with Elon. The two institutions are light years apart in their mission and clearly going in opposite directions athletically. That is NOT a put down of Elon in any shape, form or fashion. It is just the cold, hard facts. Read my comment again. I said the latest conference additions have become "A" motivating factor, as in one of many. Not THE motivating factor for looking to move on. You guys have to stop being so defensive.

Again, you are missing the point. It is a simple anaology. If Socrates is a man, and man is mortal, Socrates is mortal. If App State voted in Elon, and Elon is a private school, App State wanted another private school. Anything concerning what App's administration is doing behind closed doors is pure speculation.

I also think you are unnecessarily cutting down Elon. To say that they are going in opposite directions athletically or light years apart in their mission is an overstatement. Yes, App is a much bigger school. Elon, however, went from the worst college football team I had seen in the FCS when they joined the SoCon, to playoff and conference contender in a few short years. From my seat, it appears Elon has made a commitment to facilities, support, and putting winning products on the field. Granted, its on a smaller scale, but that seems to be dead on to what App is trying to do.

[gophoenix]

You are nuts if you think ASU officials would actually go public with much of what they are thinking. I realize it may be hard for you to fathom the idea but ASU has little to nothing in common with Elon. The two institutions are light years apart in their mission and clearly going in opposite directions athletically. That is NOT a put down of Elon in any shape, form or fashion. It is just the cold, hard facts. Read my comment again. I said the latest conference additions have become "A" motivating factor, as in one of many. Not THE motivating factor for looking to move on. You guys have to stop being so defensive.

Hard to fathom? How so? I have merely stated facts as presented, instead of commenting on pure speculation as your have.

The truth is that both App and Elon are top regional universities of the South region. Elon is above App. And Elon has been climbing this, as has App.

App has grown by what seems to be 4000 students since 2001, and 7000 since 1993. Elon has grown by 1600 since 2000 and 3600 since 1993. So, it seems both universities are grown, though Elon is growing at a higher percentage rate.

Both universities have grown into the selective market for student enrollment instead of being plan B schools.

Both schools missions, as stated by the mission statements are very much similar:
http://www.elon.edu/e-web/administration/mission_statement.xhtml
http://universitycollege.appstate.edu/university-college-mission-statement

You have spoken nothing of athletics, solely as university level comparison. To which, the two, are far more similar than dissimilar.

As for comments about the administration and the thoughts on Elon, Wofford and Samford. There is no proof to any of your claims. There is no media backup of this. I am not being defensive, I could honestly care less. However, you are the one making these claims, not the rest of us. And by App visiting and voting in Wofford and Samford, means that App supported both additions, like it or not. I don't care what the motivating factors are. The SoCon bashing is a bunch of conspiracy theories, the stories of the administration's thoughts are baseless and the comments about the private schools are completely wrong when comparing the universities.

Again, you guys want to move up. Fantastic, move up. But the conference, nor the schools that you voted in, are the reason. And there is not some gigantic conspiracy against public schools. The public schools have always outnumbered the private schools for any vote. If the public schools had no wanted Samford, Elon and Wofford; then none of those three would have been voted in. Since all three were voted in, without a negative vote against any of the three, then the will of the majority publics was to vote in three private schools. Like it or not.

[chattownmocs]

App State non football Sports finishes/standings

Baseball
6th out of 11 teams

Basketball
7 of 12

Womens Basketball
1 of 11

Soccer
4 of 7

Womens Soccer
9 of 12

Softball
3 of 12

Tennis
4 of 11

Women's Tennis
7 of 11

Volleyball
6 of 12

Wrestling
4 of 6


Come on, you are a middle-of-the-road Socon athletic dept. This is where you belong.

[asumike83]

App State non football Sports finishes/standings

Baseball
6th out of 11 teams

Basketball
7 of 12

Womens Basketball
1 of 11

Soccer
4 of 7

Womens Soccer
9 of 12

Softball
3 of 12

Tennis
4 of 11

Women's Tennis
7 of 11

Volleyball
6 of 12

Wrestling
4 of 6


Come on, you are a middle-of-the-road Socon athletic dept. This is where you belong.

1) You conveniently forgot about our track and field program, which has dominated the conference for the last half decade
2) ASU basketball, the 2nd biggest revenue sport, is 1 year removed from winning the SoCon North regular season and being runner-up in the tournament
3) All those sports put together do not make up a fraction of the revenue generated from football. Money is what matters when it comes to conference affiliation, regardless of how your women's field hockey team did.

ASU has won EVERY Commisioner's Cup since 1984 with the exception of '91 (Furman) and '05 (UT-C). In case you aren't aware, the Commisioner's Cup goes to the top men's program in the conference. ASU has won 30 of them. ASU is by far the most prepared Athletic Department to move on to a bigger conference. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.

[Skjellyfetti]

Commissioner's Cup:
1977-78 Appalachian State
1978-79 Appalachian State
1979-80 Appalachian State
1980-81 Appalachian State
1981-82 Appalachian State
1982-83 East Tennessee State
1983-84 Appalachian State
1984-85 Appalachian State
1985-86 Appalachian State
1986-87 Appalachian State
1987-88 Appalachian State
1988-89 Appalachian State
1989-90 Appalachian State
1990-91 Furman
1991-92 Appalachian State
1992-93 Appalachian State
1993-94 Appalachian State
1994-95 Appalachian State
1995-96 Appalachian State
1996-97 Appalachian State
1997-98 Appalachian State
1998-99 Appalachian State
1999-00 Appalachian State
2000-01 Appalachian State
2001-02 Appalachian State
2002-03 Appalachian State
2003-04 Appalachian State
2004-05 Chattanooga
2005-06 Appalachian State
2006-07 Appalachian State
2007-08 Appalachian State
2008-09 Appalachian State
2009-10 Appalachian State

chattownmocs trying to argue that we're a "middle of the road" SoCon athletic department... while leaving out our best sports from his list. xsmhxxlolx

[BigApp]

How about the other way. Why not tell us what the SoCon has done that doesn't embrace all members....

I asked first.

[chattownmocs]

Better be able to do more than win a fictional commissioner's cup. The proof is in the pudding and so far this year at least you are an average athletic program.

I didnt leave anything from this list. I got that straight from soconsports.com.

[OL FU]

Ok I am confused, Why is the Commissioner's Cup fictional. It is awarded by the conference. Admittedly a school that participates in every sport has the advantage, but other than that which is more of an issue directed at the schools thatn don't participate, it seems legitimate.

[Saint3333]

Ok I am confused, Why is the Commissioner's Cup fictional. It is awarded by the conference. Admittedly a school that participates in every sport has the advantage, but other than that which is more of an issue directed at the schools thatn don't participate, it seems legitimate.

If I were Chatttown I'd ignore it as well. Just like he's ignoring the 40 SoCon championships in the 6 T&F sports that ASU has won over the last 10 years.

[asumike83]

I didnt leave anything from this list. I got that straight from soconsports.com.

You know, it is in the realm of possibility that there are Southern Conference sports that weren't listed on the page you cut and pasted from the website. But, because you obviously aren't good at reading, here is the article from your beloved website entitled 'Appalachian State Men, Women claim SoCon Outdoor Title' dated just 2 days ago. There are some big words, let me know if you have questions.

http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205142103&DB_OEM_ID=4000


Ok I am confused, Why is the Commissioner's Cup fictional. It is awarded by the conference.

It is 'fictional' when it contradicts the incorrect point you're trying to make I suppose. A quick cut and paste is far more official.

[chattownmocs]

You know, it is in the realm of possibility that there are Southern Conference sports that weren't listed on the page you cut and pasted from the website. But, because you obviously aren't good at reading, here is the article from your beloved website entitled 'Appalachian State Men, Women claim SoCon Outdoor Title' dated just 2 days ago. There are some big words, let me know if you have questions.

http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205142103&DB_OEM_ID=4000


It is 'fictional' when it contradicts the incorrect point you're trying to make I suppose. A quick cut and paste is far more official.

If its not listed it isnt listed. Go to the home page and look at standings. But good for you, you won track and field. You are still average in most sports and far from the dominating athletic program you would like to represent yourselves as. Also what do you think your upside is in major conference sports? Your name is appalachian State and you are located in Boone, NC. I think it's safe to say you are at the pinnacle of your athletic upside right now. You have hit the ceiling. If you want to go be a bottom feeder in a major conference, good riddance. In the mean time, sit down and shut up.

[StorminASU]

If its not listed it isnt listed. Go to the home page and look at standings. But good for you, you won track and field. You are still average in most sports and far from the dominating athletic program you would like to represent yourselves as. Also what do you think your upside is in major conference sports? Your name is appalachian State and you are located in Boone, NC. I think it's safe to say you are at the pinnacle of your athletic upside right now. You have hit the ceiling. If you want to go be a bottom feeder in a major conference, good riddance. In the mean time, sit down and shut up.


Well that about wraps it up Appfans. Here we have some great recommendations from THE premier institution in FCS football. If chattownmocs says we shouldn't go, then obviously we shouldn't go...Why don't you take your own advice and be quiet. App has plans to expand at another level while UT-C is still trying to figure out how to be successful at it's current level. Also, I have never seen where anyone has claimed our entire athletic program is dominating, but the revenue sports hold their own enough to justify a move up.

[ElonPride]

If I were Chatttown I'd ignore it as well. Just like he's ignoring the 40 SoCon championships in the 6 T&F sports that ASU has won over the last 10 years.

And I get ripped for talking baseball?xsmiley_wix

[asumike83]

If its not listed it isnt listed. Go to the home page and look at standings. But good for you, you won track and field. You are still average in most sports and far from the dominating athletic program you would like to represent yourselves as. Also what do you think your upside is in major conference sports? Your name is appalachian State and you are located in Boone, NC. I think it's safe to say you are at the pinnacle of your athletic upside right now. You have hit the ceiling. If you want to go be a bottom feeder in a major conference, good riddance. In the mean time, sit down and shut up.

I'm really beginning to think that you can't read. The words 'dominating athletic program' were never written. I stated that we are the SoCon team most well-prepared for a move up, based on our revenue and overall athletic program. I never said we dominated every sport in the conference. You made a ridiculous comment by saying we are a 'middle of the road' SoCon program. The Commisioner's Cup is given by the conference to the top men's athletic program and we've won all but 2 the last 27 years. There is an argument to be made for teams who don't compete in as many sports, but saying we are middle of the pack is a baseless opinion. I know you want to bash our non-revenue sports since your football team hasn't been relevant for more than 25 years, but the fact is that ASU has a well-rounded athletic department.

[PaladinFan]

I'm really beginning to think that you can't read. The words 'dominating athletic program' were never written. I stated that we are the SoCon team most well-prepared for a move up, based on our revenue and overall athletic program. I never said we dominated every sport in the conference. You made a ridiculous comment by saying we are a 'middle of the road' SoCon program. The Commisioner's Cup is given by the conference to the top men's athletic program and we've won all but 2 the last 27 years. There is an argument to be made for teams who don't compete in as many sports, but saying we are middle of the pack is a baseless opinion. I know you want to bash our non-revenue sports since your football team hasn't been relevant for more than 25 years, but the fact is that ASU has a well-rounded athletic department.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, I think. The reality is that App's decision to move conferences will be a purely financial one. The number of commissioner's cups or national championships they win won't make a difference.

Physics and history tell us that anything that rises, must also fall. In the 1980s Furman was the class of the conference. In the 1990s it was Georgia Southern and Marshall. As we have progressed into the 2010s it has been App's turn. Programs ebb and flow just like anything else. It is foolish, IMO, to think that App State is going to be in the national title game each and every year if they stay in the FCS. They will do what ever program does, have good years and bad years. Its a move now or not at all scenario for them.

I do think that there are two parts to the analysis. For one, can App swing it financially. That question seems to have no answer right now. Second, if they can swing it financially, will they bring enough to the table for a FBS conference to extend and offer. Sure, there is the Independent route, but that seems like such a miserably long road. If those two questions are answered affirmatively, then they move. If they aren't, then they will hang around.

[chattownmocs]

I think you should have at least 1 sport in which you can compete in on that level before you make the move. Right now you have 0. Your football team will become much stronger with division one recruiting but as of now you would finish near the bottom of any major conference. Good luck to you.

[gophoenix]

I asked first.

Well, mainly because you talked about intangibles that aren't straight forward measurements.

You Asked:
1) WHY you think the SoCon is the "best fit"
So, what does this mean? The SoCon is the best fit for what? The best fit for all the schools? The best fit for the mixture it has? What are you asking here?

2) what the SoCon has done to enhance the image of it's members
What has it done to enhance the image of it's members? Again, what are you driving at here? There's plenty the conference does to enhance members, athletes, embrace the conference as a whole, negotiate TV contracts, enhance media coverage. But the thing is, what baseline are you after? Are you saying what has the SoCon done since you've been here? Just the simple fact of adding Elon (a school recruiting more Midwest and Northerns than any other SoCon school) and Samford (recruiting more Deep South than any other school) enhances the number of people mentioning the other schools do people of different regions alone. Associating with better academic institutions?

3) what the SoCon has done to improve its product
What's the product you are talking about? The product of student athletes? The product of sports? The product of competition? Define the product you want to talk about! So far, Wofford's product overall has improved the conference academics over Marshall while being exceedingly competitive in football. Elon has dramatically improved the product over VMI in both women's and men's sports overall. Samford has improved the product from ETSU while averaging more in attendance. All three schools added improve the conference's profile, increase the academics profile of the conference and increase the sports performance over the schools replaced.

So, again, without defining what you are asking, the simple answer to all the questions is positive. So, tell me, what's the negative answer to all three?

[asumike83]

@ PaladinFan:
I completely agree that when it comes to FBS football, the decision will certainly come down to dollars and cents. I don't think that ASU will be in the title game every year if they stick around (as the last 3 years have proven!), but my point was that we've done a lot of winning and gotten our program to a level where we are the cream of the FCS crop right now. It has also put us in a situation where we are as financially able to make the move as we'll ever be. Is that stable enough to actually make the move? We'll find out soon enough, hopefully. If we determine that we can swing it, the ball will then be completely out of our court while we wait for a conference to offer because as you stated, the independent route is tough and really not an option for a school without a huge market.

@chattownmocs:
We'll just have to agree to disagree, depending on how you define 'major conference'. If you mean BCS conferences then yes, ASU would certainly not be a contender. However, I do think that if we were placed in a smaller conference as would almost certainly be the case, we would be competitive. As hard as it is for me to be un-biased, I do think that even from an objective standpoint, ASU (as well as several other top FCS teams) are better than the lower-tier of D-1A.

[Skjellyfetti]

Better be able to do more than win a fictional commissioner's cup. The proof is in the pudding and so far this year at least you are an average athletic program.

I didnt leave anything from this list. I got that straight from soconsports.com.

You definitely left Men's and Women's Track and Field off the list. And we just swept the SoCon in both men's and women's indoor and outdoor track and field. That's 4 SoCon titles right there.


The Appalachian State men and women won the 2011 Southern Conference Outdoor Track & Field Championships. The title was the eighth for the Mountaineer men since 2001 and 18th overall, and the 16th women's title for the women, both which are the most titles in SoCon history.
http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=21880&SPID=1780&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205142103&DB_OEM_ID=4000


The Appalachian State men and women won the 2011 Southern Conference Indoor Track & Field Championships. The title was the eighth for the Mountaineer men since 2000 and third in a row, and it is the ninth women's title for Appalachian State since 2000.
http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4000&ATCLID=205105308





What athletic departments in the SoCon do you feel are overall currently superior to Appalachian's?

[chattownmocs]

You definitely left Men's and Women's Track and Field off the list. And we just swept the SoCon in both men's and women's indoor and outdoor track and field. That's 4 SoCon titles right there.


http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=21880&SPID=1780&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205142103&DB_OEM_ID=4000


http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4000&ATCLID=205105308





What athletic departments in the SoCon do you feel are overall currently superior to Appalachian's?

none are as well rounded or as large. Some are more specialized and more dominant in individual sports. But football is king. I don't think anyone in the southern conference is ready to take their entire athletic department to the next level.

[Skjellyfetti]

none are as well rounded or as large. Some are more specialized and more dominant in individual sports.

As long as I've got you backpedaling from this crap you were spewing my job here is done. :)



Come on, you are a middle-of-the-road Socon athletic dept.

[Saint3333]

And I get ripped for talking baseball?xsmiley_wix

No kidding, who is this joker?

Although if I had UTC's track program I'd leave it off as well:

Women - Team Rankings - 21 Events Scored
1) Appalachian State 195 2) Western Carolina 138
3) Elon 131 4) Samford 115.5
5) Georgia Southern 87.5 6) Col. of Charleston 65.5
7) UNC-Greensboro 29 8) Furman 25
9) Citadel 20 10) Chattanooga 7
11) Wofford 2.5 12) Davidson 2
Men - Team Rankings - 21 Events Scored
1) Appalachian State 256 2) Western Carolina 218.5
3) Samford 138.5 4) Davidson 70
5) Citadel 48 6) Chattanooga 42
7) Furman 24 8) Wofford 17
9) UNC-Greensboro 1

[PaladinFan]

@ PaladinFan:
I completely agree that when it comes to FBS football, the decision will certainly come down to dollars and cents. I don't think that ASU will be in the title game every year if they stick around (as the last 3 years have proven!), but my point was that we've done a lot of winning and gotten our program to a level where we are the cream of the FCS crop right now. It has also put us in a situation where we are as financially able to make the move as we'll ever be. Is that stable enough to actually make the move? We'll find out soon enough, hopefully. If we determine that we can swing it, the ball will then be completely out of our court while we wait for a conference to offer because as you stated, the independent route is tough and really not an option for a school without a huge market.


And I think that's really where it is. App State is the big cheese at the moment. They haven't always been (though that might come as a shock to some of the fans who jumped on the bandwagon in 2005 :)).

I just think that blaming the conference, or schools, or whatever just misses the point. App will move up if it is financially a sound decision. I do agree that if they can't swing it now, they never will be able to (at least not in anything that resembles the near future). You miss this window and move on five years, things change. You might have a 6-5 football team and a new chancellor who is more academics focused over athletics (these things, like all else, ebb and flow). Harder to sell then. If you're going, nigh is the time.

[SoCon48]

The truth is somewhere in the middle, I think. The reality is that App's decision to move conferences will be a purely financial one. The number of commissioner's cups or national championships they win won't make a difference.

Physics and history tell us that anything that rises, must also fall. In the 1980s Furman was the class of the conference. In the 1990s it was Georgia Southern and Marshall. As we have progressed into the 2010s it has been App's turn. Programs ebb and flow just like anything else. It is foolish, IMO, to think that App State is going to be in the national title game each and every year if they stay in the FCS. They will do what ever program does, have good years and bad years. Its a move now or not at all scenario for them.

I do think that there are two parts to the analysis. For one, can App swing it financially. That question seems to have no answer right now. Second, if they can swing it financially, will they bring enough to the table for a FBS conference to extend and offer. Sure, there is the Independent route, but that seems like such a miserably long road. If those two questions are answered affirmatively, then they move. If they aren't, then they will hang around.

I don't think schools can join as independents.

[asumike83]

And I think that's really where it is. App State is the big cheese at the moment. They haven't always been (though that might come as a shock to some of the fans who jumped on the bandwagon in 2005 :)).

Not to nit-pick, but the bandwagon didn't REALLY pick up steam until '07 when we beat Michigan! As much as I sometimes miss the convenience of tailgating until 5 minutes before kick-off, walking to the main entrance with an expired student ID, getting in for free and sitting at the 50, I am still amazed at how the support has grown over the last 5 years.

[chattownmocs]

As long as I've got you backpedaling from this crap you were spewing my job here is done. :)


Well you have a great track program apparently. And a great FCS football program. Other than that pretty much everything is middle of the road. Football is king even if it isn't D-1. But there are a few schools that have multiple athletic programs who compete at the highest level, and could compete in just about every conference year in and year out. App State is not one of those schools.

[Fuze]

Im not an App fan nor is my school in the SoCon, but here is my take on App's situation.

Like it or not small private school's have a different mission than public universities. In the last 15 years there have been 3 schools that have left the SoCon, Marshall, VMI and ETSU. Two of those were large public universities. Each was replaced with a private school. When Marshall left the choice was to bring Wofford in, VMI was basically traded for Elon and Samford was finally picked up to replace ETSU 6 years later.

The last enrollment info I could find was 09. At the time App had an enrollment of 16,969. Which is larger than all the privates put together. That total is 16,611.

App only has 3 other peer institutions in the conference athleticlly, those being UTC, Western Carolina and Georgia Southern. Acidemiclly you can put College of Charleston and Greensboro. Even though the Citadel is public it as a different mission than all the other schools in the conference since it's a military school.

In football App has seperated themself from most of the SoCon on the field and off the field. It may not be right but I can see their point. When say Samford goes to Boone there is 26-29K in the stands. When they go to Samford they play infront of 5-7K.

Now here is the cold truth to App fans. There will be no CUSA invite unless the conference implodes, and I don't see that happening. You will have 1 conference to go to and thats if they are willing to give you an invite and thats the Sun Belt. The MAC has 14 football members now with UMASS going there. And the Sun Belt has 9 football playing members with South Alabama joining in 12 it will make it 10. If they invite App they would need a 12th.

[Saint3333]

Well you have a great track program apparently. And a great FCS football program. Other than that pretty much everything is middle of the road. Football is king even if it isn't D-1. But there are a few schools that have multiple athletic programs who compete at the highest level, and could compete in just about every conference year in and year out. App State is not one of those schools.

You have displayed such a wealth of knowledge regarding ASU thus far, I guess we should just stop the study now since chattown has spoken.

What a joke.

[gophoenix]

Like it or not small private school's have a different mission than public universities.

That's fine, a lot of people say that. But no one has yet to provide any evidence to what that is. Nor can anyone differentiate between a public university like App (regional university) and UNC-Pembroke (also a regional University), though both are drastically different in image.


In the last 15 years there have been 3 schools that have left the SoCon, Marshall, VMI and ETSU. Two of those were large public universities. Each was replaced with a private school. When Marshall left the choice was to bring Wofford in, VMI was basically traded for Elon and Samford was finally picked up to replace ETSU 6 years later.

Be that as it may, what's the point you are making here? The point still stands that all the public schools still vote in conference members and still out vote private schools.


The last enrollment info I could find was 09. At the time App had an enrollment of 16,969. Which is larger than all the privates put together. That total is 16,611.

Again, the point? FBS conferences have this same dynamic.



App only has 3 other peer institutions in the conference athleticlly, those being UTC, Western Carolina and Georgia Southern. Acidemiclly you can put College of Charleston and Greensboro. Even though the Citadel is public it as a different mission than all the other schools in the conference since it's a military school.

Actually, false, http://irap.appstate.edu/pagesmith/63

Actually, looking at a sample of CAA, SoCon, Big South and OVC schools, rarely does any school participate in a conference with more than 2 peer institutions.

[OL FU]

Im not an App fan nor is my school in the SoCon, but here is my take on App's situation.

Like it or not small private school's have a different mission than public universities. In the last 15 years there have been 3 schools that have left the SoCon, Marshall, VMI and ETSU. Two of those were large public universities. Each was replaced with a private school. When Marshall left the choice was to bring Wofford in, VMI was basically traded for Elon and Samford was finally picked up to replace ETSU 6 years later.

The last enrollment info I could find was 09. At the time App had an enrollment of 16,969. Which is larger than all the privates put together. That total is 16,611.

App only has 3 other peer institutions in the conference athleticlly, those being UTC, Western Carolina and Georgia Southern. Acidemiclly you can put College of Charleston and Greensboro. Even though the Citadel is public it as a different mission than all the other schools in the conference since it's a military school.

In football App has seperated themself from most of the SoCon on the field and off the field. It may not be right but I can see their point. When say Samford goes to Boone there is 26-29K in the stands. When they go to Samford they play infront of 5-7K.

Now here is the cold truth to App fans. There will be no CUSA invite unless the conference implodes, and I don't see that happening. You will have 1 conference to go to and thats if they are willing to give you an invite and thats the Sun Belt. The MAC has 14 football members now with UMASS going there. And the Sun Belt has 9 football playing members with South Alabama joining in 12 it will make it 10. If they invite App they would need a 12th.

I think there may be a point to ASU outgrowing in size and in some cases scope in athletics, but I just want to remind everyone of schools in the SoCon when ASU joined.


I may not have this exacly right but it was something like this.

Furman
The Citadel
Davidson
Richmond
William and Mary
VMI
East Carolina

Then ASU joined.

In other words, the since the departure of the ACC schools (actually before their departure too), the SoCon has always been a mix of small and large. At sometimes it was more one way than the other. When ASU joined the conference was mostly small schools with the exception of ECU. and they didn't hang around long after ASU joined (I am not saying that their departure was related). When people discuss the SoCon bringing in smaller schools lately, that mainly brought the balance back to what it has historically been. Additionally, there is the idea of taking what is available. But the larger point is that the SoCon hasn't changed in its proportional make up. Perhaps ASU has outgrown us and that is ok. But once again it isn't the SoCon.


PS I know you know. but ETSU dropped football and VMI wanted to downgrade. So one large school gave up and one small school changed its direction.


Also, I am not sure the real isssue is small schools versus large schools. Look at what is happening in the CAA. Mass leaving and Villanova considering. The CAA has some smaller schools but is dominated by larger ones. Interestingly enough, villanova, considering leaving, from what I understand has horrible attendance in normal years. I may be wrong about that. I gathered from posts on this board, not actual date.

I think as someone else said it is the direction a perceived or actual change in the athletic department can do for the university as a whole. and as I said, if ASU thinks that is a better direction. More power to them and I wish them luck. If you get to play Marshall again, pleae beat the **** out of them.

[PaladinFan]

OL FU, I have said this before, you need to stop with distributing actual facts. It gets in the way of conjectures and made up nonsense.

I'm still trying to figure out how private schools have a different "mission" than public schools. Last I heard, colleges were there to educate folks. Sure, some schools are bigger, some smaller, some focus on one thing or another, some have a different student makeup, etc. But to say that universities have different missions is foolish. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that the mission of Appalachian State is merely to provide a fanbase for its football team. Then yes, that mission might be different.

The truth of the matter is that App State joined a conference with a makeup substantially similar to what it is today. They voted to keep that makeup substantially similar as it was then. ASU has been behind that conference makeup for nearly 40 years. To suggest that now App's administration is throwing fits because they don't like the SoCon is just ridiculous. As OL FU put it, they may have outgrown the conference, but they should have no beef with the SoCon.

Also, I second the notion that should the opportunity arise, please whip Marshall.

[AshevilleApp2]

xdeadhorsex

[asumike83]

So, here is my take regarding the issue. Public schools and private schools, regardless of their stated mission statement, academic requirements or preference for conference/division affiliation in athletics can all agree on one universal academic truth: Marshall sucks.

[Apphole]

The public/private issue is getting blown out of proportion. I feel like App has outgrown the conference, public and private. I've heard how sad the atmosphere is at Lil Sammy, but I was at the App/Western game and it was still very sad. I can only imagine what their stadium looks like when they aren't playing App. As far as other sports go, we're not middle of the road. The comish cup says it all. For the UTC guy crying about how unfair it is, you might change your tune when App moves up and Nooga starts to take the award home.

[Waco Kid]

I think there may be a point to ASU outgrowing in size and in some cases scope in athletics, but I just want to remind everyone of schools in the SoCon when ASU joined.


I may not have this exacly right but it was something like this.

Furman
The Citadel
Davidson
Richmond
William and Mary
VMI
East Carolina

Then ASU joined.

In other words, the since the departure of the ACC schools (actually before their departure too), the SoCon has always been a mix of small and large. At sometimes it was more one way than the other. When ASU joined the conference was mostly small schools with the exception of ECU. and they didn't hang around long after ASU joined (I am not saying that their departure was related). When people discuss the SoCon bringing in smaller schools lately, that mainly brought the balance back to what it has historically been. Additionally, there is the idea of taking what is available. But the larger point is that the SoCon hasn't changed in its proportional make up. Perhaps ASU has outgrown us and that is ok. But once again it isn't the SoCon.


PS I know you know. but ETSU dropped football and VMI wanted to downgrade. So one large school gave up and one small school changed its direction.


Also, I am not sure the real isssue is small schools versus large schools. Look at what is happening in the CAA. Mass leaving and Villanova considering. The CAA has some smaller schools but is dominated by larger ones. Interestingly enough, villanova, considering leaving, from what I understand has horrible attendance in normal years. I may be wrong about that. I gathered from posts on this board, not actual date.

I think as someone else said it is the direction a perceived or actual change in the athletic department can do for the university as a whole. and as I said, if ASU thinks that is a better direction. More power to them and I wish them luck. If you get to play Marshall again, pleae beat the **** out of them.


I can't speak for any other App fans out there, but to me I feel like ASU has changed so much in recent years we are ready to move on. The SoCon was mainly a small school conference when we joined then it became more balanced by the early 90's. Now it is headed back to it's original post ACC roots which is fine, but I don't think App fits in well with that plan. One thing to also remember is that ASU only had about 7,000 students when it joined the SoCon so the size difference wasn't nearly as large as it is now.

Also, most of the votes on the most recent additions to the SoCon took place with an entirely different Administration at the helm of ASU. Samford is the only school that has been added since Peacock took over, and they were added maily becuase there was no option other than Coastal who has issues with their classroom standards. The SoCon had to add another school for football to help with scheduling.

This is all about the SoCon has to do what the majority of its members feel is best, and ASU has to do what it feels is best. Personally if FBS doesn't work out right now for ASU and Nova I think ASU, GSU, and UTC need to swap places with UR, W&M (yes I know they are public), and Nova. The SoCon would have mostly small privates with a few publics that fit the SoCon mold, and the CAA would have all public schools that are medium to large in size.

[SoCon48]

Richmond is private.

[OL FU]

The public/private issue is getting blown out of proportion. I feel like App has outgrown the conference, public and private. I've heard how sad the atmosphere is at Lil Sammy, but I was at the App/Western game and it was still very sad. I can only imagine what their stadium looks like when they aren't playing App. As far as other sports go, we're not middle of the road. The comish cup says it all. For the UTC guy crying about how unfair it is, you might change your tune when App moves up and Nooga starts to take the award home.

I think the discussion based on whether ASU is better off elsehwhere is a legitimate. But if you will read the first post, it is about why bash the conference.

[OL FU]

I can't speak for any other App fans out there, but to me I feel like ASU has changed so much in recent years we are ready to move on. The SoCon was mainly a small school conference when we joined then it became more balanced by the early 90's. Now it is headed back to it's original post ACC roots which is fine, but I don't think App fits in well with that plan. One thing to also remember is that ASU only had about 7,000 students when it joined the SoCon so the size difference wasn't nearly as large as it is now.

Also, most of the votes on the most recent additions to the SoCon took place with an entirely different Administration at the helm of ASU. Samford is the only school that has been added since Peacock took over, and they were added maily becuase there was no option other than Coastal who has issues with their classroom standards. The SoCon had to add another school for football to help with scheduling.

This is all about the SoCon has to do what the majority of its members feel is best, and ASU has to do what it feels is best. Personally if FBS doesn't work out right now for ASU and Nova I think ASU, GSU, and UTC need to swap places with UR, W&M (yes I know they are public), and Nova. The SoCon would have mostly small privates with a few publics that fit the SoCon mold, and the CAA would have all public schools that are medium to large in size.

I generally agree with your post. It is really for the schools to do what is in their best interst.

PS Villanova is private too.

[hapapp]

First, I don't think ASU's administration is feed up with the SoCon. I think that notion is coming from the fanbase. I do believe the administration is serious in determining if a move for football is in the best interest of the university. I don't think the feasibility study is aimed at belittling the SoCon as much as it is to determine if a move makes sense.

I generally favor the move but not for the sake of moving. If we decide where we are is the best place for us, I'm fine with that.

[chattownmocs]

The public/private issue is getting blown out of proportion. I feel like App has outgrown the conference, public and private. I've heard how sad the atmosphere is at Lil Sammy, but I was at the App/Western game and it was still very sad. I can only imagine what their stadium looks like when they aren't playing App. As far as other sports go, we're not middle of the road. The comish cup says it all. For the UTC guy crying about how unfair it is, you might change your tune when App moves up and Nooga starts to take the award home.

its not unfair just irrelevant. You compete in sports, you garner more points in the standings of the award. When you take a closer look you see that y'all are dominate in a few sports and middle of the road in the rest.

[Saint3333]

ASU dominates in 7 of the SoCon's 19 sports (football and 6 T&F sports), that is 37%, not a "few". Ask any AD in the SoCon who has the best overall athletic program, it is ASU.

Why don't you guys get a baseball team to kill time during the spring instead of wasting it trying to rationalize how UTC and ASU are on even playing fields currently?

[PaladinFan]

First, I don't think ASU's administration is feed up with the SoCon. I think that notion is coming from the fanbase. I do believe the administration is serious in determining if a move for football is in the best interest of the university. I don't think the feasibility study is aimed at belittling the SoCon as much as it is to determine if a move makes sense.

I generally favor the move but not for the sake of moving. If we decide where we are is the best place for us, I'm fine with that.

By jove, I think he's got it!

It only took 153 posts, but who is counting?

[gophoenix]

First, I don't think ASU's administration is feed up with the SoCon. I think that notion is coming from the fanbase. I do believe the administration is serious in determining if a move for football is in the best interest of the university. I don't think the feasibility study is aimed at belittling the SoCon as much as it is to determine if a move makes sense.

I generally favor the move but not for the sake of moving. If we decide where we are is the best place for us, I'm fine with that.

xhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxh urrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayx

In essence, it has taken close to what seems like 10 years for someone to say something like this.

[chattownmocs]

ASU dominates in 7 of the SoCon's 19 sports (football and 6 T&F sports), that is 37%, not a "few". Ask any AD in the SoCon who has the best overall athletic program, it is ASU.

Why don't you guys get a baseball team to kill time during the spring instead of wasting it trying to rationalize how UTC and ASU are on even playing fields currently?

Haha Track and Field counts as 6 sports now? Ok Mens indoor and outdoor. Womens indoor and outdoor. Thats 4 if you stretch it. So where are the other 2? Chattanooga Mocs softball, Wrestling, and Women's basketball are 3 of the best 5 programs this conference has to offer. Women's Golf competes on a national level. Men's golf is the class of the conference the majority of the time. The men's basketball program is the best in the history of the conference. Quality over quantity. And if you want quantity. We have the most athletic championships in southern conference history even though we are one of the newest members. So take your commisioners cups earned by 5th and 6th place finished and shove them.

[gophoenix]

I can't speak for any other App fans out there, but to me I feel like ASU has changed so much in recent years we are ready to move on. The SoCon was mainly a small school conference when we joined then it became more balanced by the early 90's.

First, "you feel" isn't a concrete reason for having outgrown, being better or ready to move on. There is no reason or fact to back it up. Which is what a lot of these posts are about. If the money is there, then it is easy, you do it. If it isn't then, do you do it. Those are the only questions. The whole small vs big schools is blown out of proportion. Look at Rice vs Akron. It's the flip side of the arguments made.

I would also argue again the SoCon being a small school conference when you joined as opposed to now:
1972: VMI, ECU, App, W&M, Richmind, Furman, The Citadel, Davidson
VMI and The Citadel of the time were small but not considered small schools, look at other military academies at the time.
ECU definitely was not, nor was Furman or Richmond considered that at the time.
And App was a bigger school, 8,700 according to the net. Which, proportionately speaking is about the same proportion it is to Furman and Richmond today.

2 Large Regionals of the time, 2 Military, 1 Small Public and 3 private
In other words: 5 public, 3 private

So if it stabilized for the 90s... then you got:
Marshall, App, WCU, UTC, ETSU, VMI, The Citadel, GSU, Furman
3 Large Regionals, 3 medium Regionals, 2 Military, 1 Private
In other words: 8 public, 1 private

Then leading to 2011:
App, WCU, UTC, GSU, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Samford, The Citadel
2 Large Regionals, 2 Medium Regionals, 1 military, 4 private
In other words: 5 public and 4 private

If you talk public to private, the SoCon has never been more balanced than it is now. If you want to talk about that stability, it is even to what it was in the 70s. And if you want to talk about balance of different schools, then it is still equally as balanced now as it has been over the years.

[Saint3333]

Haha Track and Field counts as 6 sports now? Ok Mens indoor and outdoor. Womens indoor and outdoor. Thats 4 if you stretch it. So where are the other 2? Chattanooga Mocs softball, Wrestling, and Women's basketball are 3 of the best 5 programs this conference has to offer. Women's Golf competes on a national level. Men's golf is the class of the conference the majority of the time. The men's basketball program is the best in the history of the conference. Quality over quantity. And if you want quantity. We have the most athletic championships in southern conference history even though we are one of the newest members. So take your commisioners cups earned by 5th and 6th place finished and shove them.

You forgot Men's and Women's cross country, this debate is over for me you're in way over your head...

Since 2000 ASU has 46 SoCon championships in the seven sports I mentioned.

[Waco Kid]

I generally agree with your post. It is really for the schools to do what is in their best interst.

PS Villanova is private too.

SoCon48 and OL FU

Not to get picky here, but I realize that both Richmond and Nova are private. That's why I pointed out W&M being public, and why I said they would fit in well with the direction of the SoCon. Mostly private (a few small public) schools with high academic standards. William and Mary is similar to The Citadel and C of C being public with high academic standards. WCU might need to think about joining the Big South if all that took place.

[Waco Kid]

First, "you feel" isn't a concrete reason for having outgrown, being better or ready to move on. There is no reason or fact to back it up. Which is what a lot of these posts are about. If the money is there, then it is easy, you do it. If it isn't then, do you do it. Those are the only questions. The whole small vs big schools is blown out of proportion. Look at Rice vs Akron. It's the flip side of the arguments made.

I would also argue again the SoCon being a small school conference when you joined as opposed to now:
1972: VMI, ECU, App, W&M, Richmind, Furman, The Citadel, Davidson
VMI and The Citadel of the time were small but not considered small schools, look at other military academies at the time.
ECU definitely was not, nor was Furman or Richmond considered that at the time.
And App was a bigger school, 8,700 according to the net. Which, proportionately speaking is about the same proportion it is to Furman and Richmond today.

2 Large Regionals of the time, 2 Military, 1 Small Public and 3 private
In other words: 5 public, 3 private

So if it stabilized for the 90s... then you got:
Marshall, App, WCU, UTC, ETSU, VMI, The Citadel, GSU, Furman
3 Large Regionals, 3 medium Regionals, 2 Military, 1 Private
In other words: 8 public, 1 private

Then leading to 2011:
App, WCU, UTC, GSU, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Samford, The Citadel
2 Large Regionals, 2 Medium Regionals, 1 military, 4 private
In other words: 5 public and 4 private

If you talk public to private, the SoCon has never been more balanced than it is now. If you want to talk about that stability, it is even to what it was in the 70s. And if you want to talk about balance of different schools, then it is still equally as balanced now as it has been over the years.

Pretty sure I said the SoCon is getting back to where it was in the 70's so thank you for proving me right. I don't know what you consider small but Furman and Richmond were under 4,000 then just as they are now so they were/are small schools. The military schools are public in funding but they are more similar to the private schools. They are both less than 2,500 students so they easily fit in the small category.

BTW, I can feel whatever I want to feel and post about said feelings since this is a public message board. Speaking about your thoughts on a subject is kinda the idea of these things. Right now I feel that your little flaming chicken panties are bunched up because us mean old App people just don't agree with your thoughts (should I say feelings?) on this subject.

Let me ask you this: Do you not think/feel/believe that Elon has more in common with Furman/Wofford/Samford/Citadel/UR/Nova/W&M than it does ASU? Which school more closely resembles Elon, W&M or ASU? I'm talking academics and athletics.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

First, I don't think ASU's administration is feed up with the SoCon. I think that notion is coming from the fanbase. I do believe the administration is serious in determining if a move for football is in the best interest of the university. I don't think the feasibility study is aimed at belittling the SoCon as much as it is to determine if a move makes sense.

I generally favor the move but not for the sake of moving. If we decide where we are is the best place for us, I'm fine with that.

While "fed up" may be a bit strong, I can assure you there have been many "off the record" comments by people in the administration concerning a less than ideal relationship between ASU and the SoCon.

[OL FU]

SoCon48 and OL FU

Not to get picky here, but I realize that both Richmond and Nova are private. That's why I pointed out W&M being public, and why I said they would fit in well with the direction of the SoCon. Mostly private (a few small public) schools with high academic standards. William and Mary is similar to The Citadel and C of C being public with high academic standards. WCU might need to think about joining the Big South if all that took place.

I'm ok with pickyxthumbsupx

[PaladinFan]

While "fed up" may be a bit strong, I can assure you there have been many "off the record" comments by people in the administration concerning a less than ideal relationship between ASU and the SoCon.

And as soon as I thought we had turned the corner on this thread, it all goes back to square one.

[Fuze]

I don't think that App has outgrown the SoCon as some are suggesting. I think App and the SoCon have 2 different philosophes on the path they want to take. Is either path wrong, my answer is no. But like always you have to do what is right for you and no one else.

[OL FU]

I don't think that App has outgrown the SoCon as some are suggesting. I think App and the SoCon have 2 different philosophes on the path they want to take. Is either path wrong, my answer is no. But like always you have to do what is right for you and no one else.

And Fuze with post number 2 does an excellent job of summarizing with accuracyxhurrayx

[gophoenix]

While "fed up" may be a bit strong, I can assure you there have been many "off the record" comments by people in the administration concerning a less than ideal relationship between ASU and the SoCon.

So, now, at the end of the thread we are right back to unprovable comments that may or may not have happened about something that may or may not be true.

[gophoenix]

Pretty sure I said the SoCon is getting back to where it was in the 70's so thank you for proving me right. I don't know what you consider small but Furman and Richmond were under 4,000 then just as they are now so they were/are small schools. The military schools are public in funding but they are more similar to the private schools. They are both less than 2,500 students so they easily fit in the small category.

BTW, I can feel whatever I want to feel and post about said feelings since this is a public message board. Speaking about your thoughts on a subject is kinda the idea of these things. Right now I feel that your little flaming chicken panties are bunched up because us mean old App people just don't agree with your thoughts (should I say feelings?) on this subject.

Let me ask you this: Do you not think/feel/believe that Elon has more in common with Furman/Wofford/Samford/Citadel/UR/Nova/W&M than it does ASU? Which school more closely resembles Elon, W&M or ASU? I'm talking academics and athletics.

No, I didn't prove you right. You stated that the conference started with small schools and stabilized in the 1990s. In the course of that time, I laid out that the conference, overall, hasn't shifted the stance all that much.

And no, panties aren't in a wad. The whole "think and feel" comment is the same thing that people use when arguing politics. When people lack any sort of provable point one way or another revert to using think and feel as the reason for why something should or should not be done. Basically, it is something you can say that cannot be argued against because there is no way to argue against it. But at the same time, since it is a feeling, there is no way you can back it up as the right decision for App; or even valid when compared to the other schools.

As for what I think? How about this. US News and Word Report states that Elon has more in common with App, UTC, Western and James Madison than it does with Furman, Wofford and Davidson. When you look at the academic offerings, the direct of said academics and level of research then Elon is more in line with the regional universities and regional research universities than it is with the national liberal arts colleges. And all the school rankings say this too. The Citadel also falls into that category as well. But then again, when you say "resemble" what do you mean? Size of the school, demographics of the student body, details are important here......

[Saint3333]

So, now, at the end of the thread we are right back to unprovable comments that may or may not have happened about something that may or may not be true.

I'm sure there are people in every schools' administration that are frustrated with the SoCon. This is like complaining about your company, everyone does, some just louder than others.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I think it's funny that some App. fans (GSU fans will do the same thing) allude to the CAA being a better fit than the SoCon. Just take a look at the attendance numbers in the CAA by school...the conference average is propped up by two schools (JMU and Delaware) just like the SoCon's numbers are propped up by GSU and App. Matter of fact, the average home game attendance for SoCon schools is higher than those of the CAA in most recent years.

Oh yeah, and the CAA also has, *gasp*, private schools as well. And before Northeastern and Hofstra jumped ship, the SoCon arguably had a better collection of private school programs overall.

[PaladinFan]

I think it's funny that some App. fans (GSU fans will do the same thing) allude to the CAA being a better fit than the SoCon. Just take a look at the attendance numbers in the CAA by school...the conference average is propped up by two schools (JMU and Delaware) just like the SoCon's numbers are propped up by GSU and App. Matter of fact, the average home game attendance for SoCon schools is higher than those of the CAA in most recent years.

Oh yeah, and the CAA also has, *gasp*, private schools as well. And before Northeastern and Hofstra jumped ship, the SoCon arguably had a better collection of private school programs overall.

I don't see why GSU would have any interest in the CAA, quite frankly. I suppose their is some interest in a rivalry with Georgia State, but the cost of travel for most sports would be, I think, enormous. I don't see how it would be worth the move in any sport but basketball (but since when has the deep south cared about basketball anyway?)

[gophoenix]

I'm sure there are people in every schools' administration that are frustrated with the SoCon. This is like complaining about your company, everyone does, some just louder than others.

Well, sure, that's true, absolutely. But, just because that happens doesn't mean dissent from the conference or participant schools. And again, that sort of thing is flat unprovable.

[Saint3333]

Well, sure, that's true, absolutely. But, just because that happens doesn't mean dissent from the conference or participant schools. And again, that sort of thing is flat unprovable.

I'm not trying to say that, just that someone hearing this could take it as such and what has likely happened in the this case.

For the GSU guy talking about whether the CAA would be a better fit for ASU. Historically and even currently no, but if the southern shift continues it may become more attractive. If Maine and UNH went elsewhere and they were replaced with ASU and UNCC or Liberty I'd jump at that conference over the SoCon. It would help basketball more than anything.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

And as soon as I thought we had turned the corner on this thread, it all goes back to square one.

Turned the corner only as in agreeing with your position. Basically what you are saying is those who do not share your viewpoint have no idea what they are talking about, or are uninformed idiots running off at the mouth. I guess everyone now must operate under gophoenix's assertion that if it isn't in print or can't be quoted from a radio or TV broadcast, it can not be true.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

I think it's funny that some App. fans (GSU fans will do the same thing) allude to the CAA being a better fit than the SoCon. Just take a look at the attendance numbers in the CAA by school...the conference average is propped up by two schools (JMU and Delaware) just like the SoCon's numbers are propped up by GSU and App. Matter of fact, the average home game attendance for SoCon schools is higher than those of the CAA in most recent years.

Oh yeah, and the CAA also has, *gasp*, private schools as well. And before Northeastern and Hofstra jumped ship, the SoCon arguably had a better collection of private school programs overall.

The CAA could be down to 1 private football playing school in a few weeks. But even as it currently stands public institutions comprise 82% of the conference (including Ga State & ODU). In the SoCon that number is 55%. Once you factor in ODU and GSU the CAA takes on a totally different look. I think a conference with a core group of ASU, Del, Ga Southern, ODU and JMU would be really good. The 2010 average attendance of those 5 was 19,500. Not too shabby.

[PaladinFan]

Turned the corner only as in agreeing with your position. Basically what you are saying is those who do not share your viewpoint have no idea what they are talking about, or are uninformed idiots running off at the mouth. I guess everyone now must operate under gophoenix's assertion that if it isn't in print or can't be quoted from a radio or TV broadcast, it can not be true.

That's not at all what I am saying.

My point is (and it is the same point made by every single person on this forum not associated with App State) that the SoCon is not a problem. If App State wants to move, they move. That decision will be a financial one, not one made because the conference added Samford. The continued suggestion that there are closed door meetings where App admins are just throwing the SoCon under the bus when publicly they have done everything in their power to create the conference they now lament is just nonsense.

There are two scenarios that arise out of your comments: Either 1) App State does one thing and says another, or 2) App State does one thing and you don't have any idea what the Univeristy Chancellor and Athletic Director talk about. My opinion, and you are free to disagree with it, is that if App State didn't like the conference make up, well, they would have left or they would not have voted to keep it. They did neither. Therefore, the only logical explanation that doesn't require guessing as to the content of backroom, closed door conversations is that the conference makeup is not a problem.

That is to say, and the whole focus of anything I've said, is that if App wants to go, its a financial call. App isn't going to mortgage the future of their athletic department merely because Elon has a different method of enrollment or something. It isn't because they are all of the sudden uncomfortable with where they have been for 40 years sitting next to teams they voted to sit next to.

[OL FU]

That's not at all what I am saying.

My point is (and it is the same point made by every single person on this forum not associated with App State) that the SoCon is not a problem. If App State wants to move, they move. That decision will be a financial one, not one made because the conference added Samford. The continued suggestion that there are closed door meetings where App admins are just throwing the SoCon under the bus when publicly they have done everything in their power to create the conference they now lament is just nonsense.

There are two scenarios that arise out of your comments: Either 1) App State does one thing and says another, or 2) App State does one thing and you don't have any idea what the Univeristy Chancellor and Athletic Director talk about. My opinion, and you are free to disagree with it, is that if App State didn't like the conference make up, well, they would have left or they would not have voted to keep it. They did neither. Therefore, the only logical explanation that doesn't require guessing as to the content of backroom, closed door conversations is that the conference makeup is not a problem.

That is to say, and the whole focus of anything I've said, is that if App wants to go, its a financial call. App isn't going to mortgage the future of their athletic department merely because Elon has a different method of enrollment or something. It isn't because they are all of the sudden uncomfortable with where they have been for 40 years sitting next to teams they voted to sit next to.

I think that is the crux of the issue and what was raised at the start of the thread. Times change, people change, schools change, conferences change. Because a school doesn't fit the conference (or doesn't think it fits the conference whichever he case may be) doesn't mean its the school's or the conference's fault. Things change.

[SpeedkingATL]

I really don't think most App fans "want out of the SoCon" as much as they "want into the FBS" for football. Many of us share a desire to join C-USA but it is in no way a reflection on the SoCon. I personally would rather stay in the SoCon that go to the Sunbelt, MAC (or CAA) and would really miss the rivalrys with GaSo and Furman if we do leave the SoCon.

[Mntneer]

I really don't think most App fans "want out of the SoCon" as much as they "want into the FBS" for football. Many of us share a desire to join C-USA but it is in no way a reflection on the SoCon. I personally would rather stay in the SoCon that go to the Sunbelt, MAC (or CAA) and would really miss the rivalrys with GaSo and Furman if we do leave the SoCon.

Agreed. I also think the conference bashing is misguided, and is coming primarily from the fans. I think a point that perhaps hasn't been discussed with regard to some ASU fans' frustration with the SoCon is that despite ASU's phenomenal successes, the SoCon has been largely supplanted by the CAA as the top FCS conference. This sentiment may change in the near future with programs at GSU and UTC moving in the right direction again and with continued success from Wofford and Elon.

[gophoenix]

Turned the corner only as in agreeing with your position. Basically what you are saying is those who do not share your viewpoint have no idea what they are talking about, or are uninformed idiots running off at the mouth. I guess everyone now must operate under gophoenix's assertion that if it isn't in print or can't be quoted from a radio or TV broadcast, it can not be true.

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that if it isn't in print or quoted from from something official, then it can't be proven true or false.

[gophoenix]

I'm not trying to say that, just that someone hearing this could take it as such and what has likely happened in the this case.

Ok, that's fair. But it goes to prove my point on it isn't provable and therefore doesn't matter and is useless in a discussion or argument.



For the GSU guy talking about whether the CAA would be a better fit for ASU. Historically and even currently no, but if the southern shift continues it may become more attractive. If Maine and UNH went elsewhere and they were replaced with ASU and UNCC or Liberty I'd jump at that conference over the SoCon. It would help basketball more than anything.

What Southern shift? They added Georgia State years ago. UNCW is the next closest Southern school. UNCC hasn't been accepted. ODU was already in. And the conference, overall is still at a net +northern schools. And it wasn't that long ago that App fans were complaining about playing Liberty; what's changed?

[Apphole]

No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that if it isn't in print or quoted from from something official, then it can't be proven true or false.

You see, that's not what you've been saying. You and others have argued that what can't be proven (App's domination of the SoCon) is false. What a hypocrite. And something official? You mean like the official award given to the top school in men's sports? Give it a rest. Any objective person would agree that we are, in fact the premier athletic institution in the conference and have been for some time.

[gophoenix]

You see, that's not what you've been saying. You and others have argued that what can't be proven (App's domination of the SoCon) is false. What a hypocrite. And something official? You mean like the official award given to the top school in men's sports? Give it a rest. Any objective person would agree that we are, in fact the premier athletic institution in the conference and have been for some time.

Try some reading comprehension classes at App next time.

I could care less that some people think App is the premier athletics department. You see, that's not what the Furman fans or I have been saying. You had a nice Chattanooga fan for that argument. The point that the rest of us have made are that there is nothing provable about anything being said about the administration's thoughts on the SoCon.

And technically speaking, App isn't the premier ahtletics institution. That would be The Citadel, by the definition of what premier means in that context. You see, premier doesn't mean best or top.

[Apphole]

Try some reading comprehension classes at App next time.

I could care less that some people think App is the premier athletics department. You see, that's not what the Furman fans or I have been saying. You had a nice Chattanooga fan for that argument. The point that the rest of us have made are that there is nothing provable about anything being said about the administration's thoughts on the SoCon.

And technically speaking, App isn't the premier ahtletics institution. That would be The Citadel, by the definition of what premier means in that context. You see, premier doesn't mean best or top.

pre·mier \pri-ˈmir, -ˈmyir, -ˈmē-ər; ˈprē-ˌ, ˈpre-ˌ\
adjective
1 : first in position, rank, or importance
2 : first in time : earliest

[gophoenix]

pre·mier \pri-ˈmir, -ˈmyir, -ˈmē-ər; ˈprē-ˌ, ˈpre-ˌ\
adjective
1 : first in position, rank, or importance
2 : first in time : earliest

So Merriam Webster lists them reverse. First in time, The Citadel. First in position. Football, check. Total men's sports, check. Number of sports offered, check. But you said athletics as a whole, which constitutes APR, graduation, and lots of things go into that. And last you said everyone would agree, would they?

And of all things I posted, that's the one you decided to pick out a response to?

[Saint3333]

Ok, that's fair. But it goes to prove my point on it isn't provable and therefore doesn't matter and is useless in a discussion or argument.



What Southern shift? They added Georgia State years ago. UNCW is the next closest Southern school. UNCC hasn't been accepted. ODU was already in. And the conference, overall is still at a net +northern schools. And it wasn't that long ago that App fans were complaining about playing Liberty; what's changed?

Rhode Island, Hofstra, Northeastern for ODU and Georgia State is a southern shift from my perspective.

[StorminASU]

What exactly is the Citadel's record in "revenue" sports over recent memory (past ten years)? I think that's how most people would spot a premier program in a conference.

[WUTNDITWAA]

Why...


...has this thread gone on for 10 pages?

[gophoenix]

Rhode Island, Hofstra, Northeastern for ODU and Georgia State is a southern shift from my perspective.

But Georgia State isn't an "in" for football. Rhode island still has not left yet. Hofstra and Northeastern, though not football playing anymore, are still in the conference.

[ElonPride]

You see, that's not what you've been saying. You and others have argued that what can't be proven (App's domination of the SoCon) is false.

(Saint3333, I gotta bring this one back).......your school has not even come close to dominating in baseball, much less even field a conference contender in decades. So there you go. A good run in some programs, but total domination.......NOPE......not even close.

And to Storminasu, baseball IS considered a revenue sport and El Cid has made it to the CWS. That's a pretty big deal.

[PaladinFan]

Agreed. I also think the conference bashing is misguided, and is coming primarily from the fans. I think a point that perhaps hasn't been discussed with regard to some ASU fans' frustration with the SoCon is that despite ASU's phenomenal successes, the SoCon has been largely supplanted by the CAA as the top FCS conference. This sentiment may change in the near future with programs at GSU and UTC moving in the right direction again and with continued success from Wofford and Elon.

I can understand that, but let's not shift the blame for CAA's success to other conference members. The CAA has done well for itself recently, but I think that the SoCon is right around .500 against them head to head. Even then, App has dropped a few to their programs in recent years. Also, for decades the SoCon was propped up on the backs of Furman, GSU, and Marshall, so one program having to carry the banner for a time isn't unheard of.

I will say that I think the SoCon has been the most "consistently good" of all the conferences. Many conferences have had their moment in the sun, but few have demonstrated the ability to stay at or near the top for as long as the SoCon has.

[AppMan]

That's not at all what I am saying.

My point is (and it is the same point made by every single person on this forum not associated with App State) that the SoCon is not a problem. If App State wants to move, they move. That decision will be a financial one, not one made because the conference added Samford. The continued suggestion that there are closed door meetings where App admins are just throwing the SoCon under the bus when publicly they have done everything in their power to create the conference they now lament is just nonsense.

There are two scenarios that arise out of your comments: Either 1) App State does one thing and says another, or 2) App State does one thing and you don't have any idea what the Univeristy Chancellor and Athletic Director talk about. My opinion, and you are free to disagree with it, is that if App State didn't like the conference make up, well, they would have left or they would not have voted to keep it. They did neither. Therefore, the only logical explanation that doesn't require guessing as to the content of backroom, closed door conversations is that the conference makeup is not a problem.

That is to say, and the whole focus of anything I've said, is that if App wants to go, its a financial call. App isn't going to mortgage the future of their athletic department merely because Elon has a different method of enrollment or something. It isn't because they are all of the sudden uncomfortable with where they have been for 40 years sitting next to teams they voted to sit next to.

PaladinFan please explain how ASU can vote to "keep" the conference. As to the other part of your “opinion” the study committee has publicly said (listening gophoenix?) the question isn’t if ASU can make the move, but do we have a place to move to. I think the answer to whether or not ASU has a desire to move is fairly obvious.

[AppMan]

I really don't think most App fans "want out of the SoCon" as much as they "want into the FBS" for football. Many of us share a desire to join C-USA but it is in no way a reflection on the SoCon. I personally would rather stay in the SoCon that go to the Sunbelt, MAC (or CAA) and would really miss the rivalrys with GaSo and Furman if we do leave the SoCon.

SpeedkingATL, I am one ASU fan who wants out of the SoCon and I am not alone. The SoCon does not fit ASU any longer. Perhaps in 1971 when there were 6000 students at ASU, but today we are the 500 lb gorilla in the corner. I don’t care if we don’t dominate all the sports. It isn’t just about winning games, but facilities, attendance, funding, donations, media exposure and a laundry list of other intangibles that sets ASU way ahead of the rest of the league. GSU’s new President is referencing ASU when talking to Eagle boosters about what they should be striving for. ASU is the bench mark everyone else measures their program by. This isn’t arrogance, just the cold, hard facts. I'm tired of going to 10,000 seat stadiums playing in front of 5,000 people.

[seantaylor]

(Saint3333, I gotta bring this one back).......your school has not even come close to dominating in baseball, much less even field a conference contender in decades. So there you go. A good run in some programs, but total domination.......NOPE......not even close.

And to Storminasu, baseball IS considered a revenue sport and El Cid has made it to the CWS. That's a pretty big deal.

GSU has made the CWS twice as much as the rest of the Socon combined.

[GlassOnion]

Personally, I feel left out of college football in the Socon. If Im talking to my friends who went to LSU, KSU, or NC State, ECU, or even UNC, we talk football, and when the question comes up, "Whos App playing this week?" and I have to answer with a Socon team, It usually results in an "Oh. Are they anygood?" And then awkwardly reverts back to 1A discussion.

Outside of the microcosm FCS fanbase, FCS football knowledge and interest is almost non-existant, at least from what I see. I want the college football experience, not some 8,000 seat stadium with 3,000 in the stands and a high school band playing "These boots were made for walkin.'" I want to play in a conference where the opposition fanbases are just as interested in their team as App's. That is obviously not the Socon. Look at the Socon's message boards for heavens sake, The Elon board has about 1 post a week or less, the Furman and Wofford boards arent much better, and Samford looks like they have a total of 3 posters. The interest is just not there. The games themselves are not bad, its having to talk to my peers about teams that nobody gives a hoot about, or never even knew they played football.

[gophoenix]

Personally, I feel left out of college football in the Socon. If Im talking to my friends who went to LSU, KSU, or NC State, ECU, or even UNC, we talk football, and when the question comes up, "Whos App playing this week?" and I have to answer with a Socon team, It usually results in an "Oh. Are they anygood?" And then awkwardly reverts back to 1A discussion.

Outside of the microcosm FCS fanbase, FCS football knowledge and interest is almost non-existant, at least from what I see. I want the college football experience, not some 8,000 seat stadium with 3,000 in the stands and a high school band playing "These boots were made for walkin.'" I want to play in a conference where the opposition fanbases are just as interested in their team as App's. That is obviously not the Socon. Look at the Socon's message boards for heavens sake, The Elon board has about 1 post a week or less, the Furman and Wofford boards arent much better, and Samford looks like they have a total of 3 posters. The interest is just not there. The games themselves are not bad, its having to talk to my peers about teams that nobody gives a hoot about, or never even knew they played football.

So, in essence, it is an image thing. So you think in FBS, people are taking FAU and FIU more seriously and they'll talk to you more then? What do the opposing boards have to do with anything. And honestly, if a bunch of immature App posters didn't descend like a plague of locusts on every board, there might be better participation. All these boards are much more active in football season anyway. What do you expect? Even the Wake board is slower this time of year.


PaladinFan please explain how ASU can vote to "keep" the conference. As to the other part of your “opinion” the study committee has publicly said (listening gophoenix?) the question isn’t if ASU can make the move, but do we have a place to move to. I think the answer to whether or not ASU has a desire to move is fairly obvious.

What does that post have to do with me? I have posted here that it is an if App moves, not a when. I honestly think the conference will be better off when they do (yes, that is my opinion and not a stone hard fact). But the study has also made these cases without the bashing of the conference peers. The opinion is backed up by facts, at least seem to be.

As for how ASU can vote to "keep" the conference, as you so eloquently put it, that comes with a vote. App can vote for Wofford, Samford, Elon, CofC, Davidson and UNCG, it can abstain or it can vote against. So far, App has not voted against a conference addition that I can find since GSU was added. So, App has the ability to make a public stand against the perceived direction the conference is going. But, they haven't, the administration comes out in support of said votes and decisions. And thus, App itself must be in support of the decisions it makes. In other words, either App is two-faced which should be a warning to every other school and conference in the country; or App is going in the direction that App wants to go. Just as the Furman fans said.

The conference is just where App has created it too. With all the public vs private school whining by App fans, since App has joined, 1 private school has moved away for football while 2 public have. With all the public vs private whining the state of VMI and ETSU was far worse than Samford and Elon. With all the whining, App has made the conference into what it is by failing to be against any addition put on the table. So when App goes to the FBS, it won't be because of the conference. it won't be because of handful of vocal fans on the net want it. It won't be because of Elon, Wofford and Samford. It will be because it makes financial sense overall.


SpeedkingATL, I am one ASU fan who wants out of the SoCon and I am not alone. The SoCon does not fit ASU any longer. Perhaps in 1971 when there were 6000 students at ASU, but today we are the 500 lb gorilla in the corner. I don’t care if we don’t dominate all the sports. It isn’t just about winning games, but facilities, attendance, funding, donations, media exposure and a laundry list of other intangibles that sets ASU way ahead of the rest of the league. GSU’s new President is referencing ASU when talking to Eagle boosters about what they should be striving for. ASU is the bench mark everyone else measures their program by. This isn’t arrogance, just the cold, hard facts. I'm tired of going to 10,000 seat stadiums playing in front of 5,000 people.

And there lies the great lie of the vocal fans like AppMan. This is another example of an assertion that I already debunked. In 1971, App had 6000 students. Proportionally, UTC, Western, Furman, ETSU, Elon, Samford and so on have grown at the same rates. So if the size was not a problem in 1971, it's not a problem now. In fact, App's growth, compared to Samford and Elon has curbed in this century.

So how about this, since you made assertions in a previous post, that I shot down and you failed to comment again on. Why don't you name these intangibles and why and how the SoCon hurts this. Seriously, give me the stone hard facts about it. Not a "it looks bad" thing or "we play in front of 5000 people" non-sense. App hasn't played in front of 5000 people for a normal SoCon game since Elon has been in this conference. Tell me how playing in front of 9000 people at Wofford hurt App any more than Clemson playing in front of 20,000 at Wake Forest. Tell me how App's home attendance has anything to do with the conference or how App having 30k vs Western's 6K is any different than going from Florida State to Duke in football. Because, in other sports, the attendance isn't there. Seriously, I would love to know the stone hard facts that aren't the opinion of the all-knowing AppMan.

[GlassOnion]

How is that an image thing? I want to be able to talk about my team, I want to play teams that have fanbases like ours, because it is more fun. I want our conference mates to be of interest to me and my peers, and of interest to their own selves. Sorry, but playing Elon is nothing like playing ECU or Marshall. Not in media/fanbase excitement, not in the stadium, not on the field.

[Apphole]

Once again your response is mostly about private vs public. Plenty of our fans have been harping on that, you're right. But my grievances with this conference are as much about publics as privates. Your ACC analogy is flawed. Sure FSU and VT have to play at Duke and Wake. They also have NC State, UNC, Clemson etc to balance it out. We have no such luxury. GaSo is the only other school in the SoCon that has a similar atmosphere and we still bring in 10k more than them. Our fan following alone puts us on a different level than the rest of the SoCon. Not just our dominance at sports.

[Waco Kid]

This whole growth has been the same proportionally theme you are using is a great way to back your argument, but it also does not tell the whole story. The difference between ASU at 7,000 and Furman at 2,000 isn't that big of a deal, but a difference in ASU at 17,000 and Furman at 4,000 is a huge difference. Sure both schools have doubled in size, but a difference of 5,000 compared to 13,000 is not proportional. When ASU joined the SoCon we were still what would be considered small, but at nearly 17,000 students ASU (GSU also) are no longer small schools. When two schools are approaching 20,000 while no other school has 10,000 (most are below 5,000) then you can't say the entire conference has experienced the same amount of growth. If UTC and Western continue to grow at their current rates they should probably look to join the OVC.

Also, whats up with you talking about what you think instead of using facts??? I thought that wasn't allowed on this board? I don't care if you did point it out.

[Saint3333]

But Georgia State isn't an "in" for football. Rhode island still has not left yet. Hofstra and Northeastern, though not football playing anymore, are still in the conference.

This is not a hard concept, but like other things you are attempting to make it so.

Georgia St. will be in for football 2012 (or is in 2013), Rhode Island will be gone for football in 2013.

In 2009 3 of the 12 CAA football members were in VA or below. 25% in the South for those keeping score at home.

In 2013 5 of the 10 CAA football members will be in VA or below. 50% in the South.

Basketball will remain at 7 of the 12 members from the South.

If you took the average distance from Boone to the CAA schools in 2009 vs. 2013 that number would be smaller in 2013.
This is how I concluded there is a southern shift in the CAA.

If Nova were to leave the CAA that leaves Maine and UNH on an island up north unless they added some NE schools.

[AppMan]

Appalachian State football feasibility committee considering move to FBS; Sun Belt & C-USA possible destinations
Posted: Apr 15, 2011 12:25 PM EDT

BOONE, NC (Watauga Democrat) - The feasibility committee looking into the future of the Appalachian State football program met in Hickory Wednesday still wanting to gather all the facts and opinions it can before making a final recommendation as to whether the program should make a move up to the Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) status.

G.A. Sywassink, the co-chairman of the committee, said he is happy with the progress the committee is making towards reaching a decision, but said the committee is also moving slowly to make sure all facts and opinions are discovered before making a final recommendation to Chancellor Kenneth Peacock. The target date for that recommendation is in May.

Peacock is expected to make his recommendation to the ASU Board of Trustees by June.
"It's an important decision and one we have to take our time to make sure we've covered every angle on what needs to be covered," Sywassink said. "That's why we're going slow. We're not under the gun where we have to make a decision at a certain time. We want to feel good about the decision we make."

The committee was formed to determine if Appalachian State's football program could make a move from its current Football Championship Subdivision (FCS) status up to FBS status. The Mountaineers are currently members of the Southern Conference, an FCS league.

Sywassink said there has been some communication with FBS conferences, but did not say which ones those were. Appalachian State athletics director Charlie Cobb said in a meeting with the Faculty Senate in March that two FBS conferences, Conference USA and the Sun Belt, were possibilities.
But there has to be openings in each conference for the Mountaineers to go. Sywassink said just because Appalachian State wants to make a move to the FBS, it doesn't necessarily mean a spot will immediately open.

"We talked about if they would take a school such as ours, what would we need to do," Sywassink said. "We'll talk to anybody we can to give us input as to how the process might work."

Conference USA has 12 teams in it, including East Carolina, Marshall, Central Florida, Tulsa, Texas El Paso, Houston, Rice, Southern Methodist, Memphis, Alabama-Birmingham Southern Mississippi and Tulane.

Conference USA has bowl affiliations with the Liberty Bowl, Hawai'i Bowl, Armed Forces Bowl, New Orleans Bowl, Beef ‘O' Brady's Bowl, Military Bowl in 2012 and Ticket City Bowl in 2011 and 2013.

The teams that play football in the Sun Belt conference include Arkansas State, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, Middle Tennessee, North Texas, South Alabama, Troy and Western Kentucky. South Alabama begins football play in 2013.
Additional members of the conference include Arkansas-Little Rock and Denver, which is leaving to join the Western Athletic Conference in 2012.

The Sun Belt has automatic bowl tie-ins with the New Orleans Bowl and the GoDaddy.com Bowl. It also alternates wit the Big 12, the Big East, Big Ten, C-USA, MAC and the SEC for bids to the Beef ‘O' Brady's Bowl, Independence Bowl, PapaJophns.com Bowl and Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl.

Last year, the Sun Belt sent three teams Troy, Florida International and Middle Tennessee to bowl games.

"We're now to the point where we've been talking to outside people of various conferences and getting a feeling if they think we'd fit with them and if it would be the right decision to move along," Sywassink said. "If there's no interest, than it's a moot point."

Sywassink said he's comfortable with the progress the committee is making.

"I think it's coming along very well," he said. "I've very comfortable with the progress up to this point with the information gathering."

[Fuze]

And there lies the great lie of the vocal fans like AppMan. This is another example of an assertion that I already debunked. In 1971, App had 6000 students. Proportionally, UTC, Western, Furman, ETSU, Elon, Samford and so on have grown at the same rates. So if the size was not a problem in 1971, it's not a problem now. In fact, App's growth, compared to Samford and Elon has curbed in this centurycurbed in this century.

College athletics is a total different animal now than it was in 1971. Athletics is what drives the bus at almost every school in this day. Also in 1971 there was no shuch thing as IA IAA FBS FCS. You was either Division I or Small College. That means DII, DIII or NAIA.

I understand were App fans are coming from. They want to play games against other universities made up the same as them. The private universities will never be like that. It's not a knock, just a fact. Elon, Samford, Wofford or even Furman will never have 25K or more at a football game.

With the things that have went on at App with the upgrades the past few years, I don't think was to stay at FCS but more of a preperation to move on. If there had not been a moratorium put on moves in 2008 I could almost be certian that App would be a full member of a FBS conferece already.

I also don't think Georgia Southern will be far behind App if they move. With the announcement of the new facility at GSU and talk of expansion of the stadium in 2013-2014. I could see them looking to move in 2014-15.

This isn't a knock on the SoCon or the schools in it. Its a natural progression of movement.

[citdog]

the "ticket city bowl" xhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayx xchinscratchx

xnottalkingx

If appy state wants to secede she certainly has that right. Let the errant sister go in peace.

http://www.louisianeacadien.com/images/civilwar/ConfederateStatesofAmericaSeal2.gif

[Fuze]

the "ticket city bowl"

The lowest attended bowl game last year was the Poppa Johns bowl that had 20,189. But it still had 7,162 more people than the FCS National Championship game had. That total was 13,027 The PJB also beat the National Championship game in the ratings.

The fact is if you are not a fan of an FCS school you will most likely not watch them play. I was watching a game a few months ago, I think it was Stephen F Austin/Sam Houston, pretty entertaining game. I had a friend ask me who was playing and I told him. He then ask if that was a high school game. I then told him it was an FCS game and they played in the Southland conference. He just looked at me and said he doesn't watch that.

[Apphole]

Citdog must think that the vast majority of all college football fans are ignorant douche bags. You're ideal conference (the gone with the wind conference)'s home attendance average would be big south status.

[PaladinFan]

Citdog must think that the vast majority of all college football fans are ignorant douche bags. You're ideal conference (the gone with the wind conference)'s home attendance average would be big south status.

Said with great conviction.

Just so you know, as many folks were in Paladin Stadium to watch a 6-4 Georiga Southern and a 5-5 Furman team as showed up to watch Middle Tenn. State (which is the largest school in Tennessee by the way) play UL-Monroe in 2010. So, good luck if you think that a move to the Sun Belt is going to boost attendance by any substantial degree.

[citdog]

Citdog must think that the vast majority of all college football fans are ignorant douche bags. You're ideal conference (the gone with the wind conference)'s home attendance average would be big south status.

i can tell you have been a die hard app fan for at least 4 months! congrats on that notable achievement. yes the vast majority of college football fans are ignorant douchebags and you should be pleased to count yourself among them. the "gone with the wind conference".....i like that.

[GlassOnion]

i can tell you have been a die hard app fan for at least 4 months! congrats on that notable achievement. yes the vast majority of college football fans are ignorant douchebags and you should be pleased to count yourself among them. the "gone with the wind conference".....i like that.

Doesnt really matter if hes late to the party or not. As you know full well, NC was the last state to secede, but still managed to sacrifice more of its young men than any other southern state. Now App is just spoilin' for some bigger badder opponents again, we figured The Citadel had the Socon pretty well handled.

[Mntneer]

SpeedkingATL, I am one ASU fan who wants out of the SoCon and I am not alone. The SoCon does not fit ASU any longer. Perhaps in 1971 when there were 6000 students at ASU, but today we are the 500 lb gorilla in the corner. I don’t care if we don’t dominate all the sports. It isn’t just about winning games, but facilities, attendance, funding, donations, media exposure and a laundry list of other intangibles that sets ASU way ahead of the rest of the league. GSU’s new President is referencing ASU when talking to Eagle boosters about what they should be striving for. ASU is the bench mark everyone else measures their program by. This isn’t arrogance, just the cold, hard facts. I'm tired of going to 10,000 seat stadiums playing in front of 5,000 people.

That's all well and good, and I agree with most of this. But the question still stands: Why badmouth the conference? At one time we fit. Now, not so much. But it's ASU thats changed, not the conference.

[citdog]

Doesnt really matter if hes late to the party or not. As you know full well, NC was the last state to secede, but still managed to sacrifice more of its young men than any other southern state. Now App is just spoilin' for some bigger badder opponents again, we figured The Citadel had the Socon pretty well handled.

Yes it does matter how late he is. He cannot put your program in its proper historical perspective. You haven't always been this good and Jerry Moore is no spring chicken. Your little window of dominance is closing rapidly or has closed. How many years has it been now since you won a National Championship? Not meant as smack just a sobering look at the facts. You are not going undefeated in the league anymore and regardless of what you tell yourselves even during this VERY IMPRESSIVE run of yours you have not even won the conference outright every year. It would be a mistake, in my opinion as a Son of a lifelong SoCon Football Fan and my 35 years being the same, for y'all to secede. It may be that you have to make the mistake to realize it. If you were going 14-0 every year and had won 6 in a row or something stupid like that then sure go be the SEC's homecoming queens every year but to say that you've out grown FCS and the Southern Conference because no one can compete with you is just loony tunes.

[GlassOnion]

With the admin App has now, I truly believe they would be successful at any level they choose. ASU has changed in the last decade, and not just on the field. It isnt that theyre unbeatable, and it isnt that we're too big. The majority of App fans just want more. More than Western, more than Samford, more than Elon, more than Presby and NCCU all in the same season. George Mallory attended the first English expeditions to Everest, and when asked "Why climb Mt Everest?", he stated "Because its there." To be fair though, I must say he did dissappear trying to make the first ascent...

[citdog]

With the admin App has now, I truly believe they would be successful at any level they choose. ASU has changed in the last decade, and not just on the field. It isnt that theyre unbeatable, and it isnt that we're too big. The majority of App fans just want more. More than Western, more than Samford, more than Elon, more than Presby and NCCU all in the same season. George Mallory attended the first English expeditions to Everest, and when asked "Why climb Mt Everest?", he stated "Because its there." To be fair though, I must say he did dissappear trying to make the first ascent...

Is the "ticket city bowl" MORE than a National Championship?

[SoCon48]

The lowest attended bowl game last year was the Poppa Johns bowl that had 20,189. But it still had 7,162 more people than the FCS National Championship game had. That total was 13,027 The PJB also beat the National Championship game in the ratings.

The fact is if you are not a fan of an FCS school you will most likely not watch them play. I was watching a game a few months ago, I think it was Stephen F Austin/Sam Houston, pretty entertaining game. I had a friend ask me who was playing and I told him. He then ask if that was a high school game. I then told him it was an FCS game and they played in the Southland conference. He just looked at me and said he doesn't watch that.
Divide the Papa John's bowl game into 4 games and see how it fares.

[OL FU]

College athletics is a total different animal now than it was in 1971. Athletics is what drives the bus at almost every school in this day. Also in 1971 there was no shuch thing as IA IAA FBS FCS. You was either Division I or Small College. That means DII, DIII or NAIA.

.

that has to be one of the saddest statements I have ever read. I hope it is not true and don't believe it is at most of the Socon schools I am familiar with.

[OL FU]

That's all well and good, and I agree with most of this. But the question still stands: Why badmouth the conference? At one time we fit. Now, not so much. But it's ASU thats changed, not the conference.

That is exactly the point. Schools change. Conferences change. In this case the Socon really hasn't (over the long term) and ASU has. in the big picture, one isn't right and the other wrong, things just changed.

[gophoenix]

College athletics is a total different animal now than it was in 1971. Athletics is what drives the bus at almost every school in this day. Also in 1971 there was no shuch thing as IA IAA FBS FCS. You was either Division I or Small College. That means DII, DIII or NAIA.

I understand were App fans are coming from. They want to play games against other universities made up the same as them. The private universities will never be like that. It's not a knock, just a fact. Elon, Samford, Wofford or even Furman will never have 25K or more at a football game.

With the things that have went on at App with the upgrades the past few years, I don't think was to stay at FCS but more of a preperation to move on. If there had not been a moratorium put on moves in 2008 I could almost be certian that App would be a full member of a FBS conferece already.

I also don't think Georgia Southern will be far behind App if they move. With the announcement of the new facility at GSU and talk of expansion of the stadium in 2013-2014. I could see them looking to move in 2014-15.

This isn't a knock on the SoCon or the schools in it. Its a natural progression of movement.

it wasn't that long ago that App was barely managing 20k a game. And was within my lifetime that there were barely making 10,000. So to say that Elon , Samford, Wofford won't ever is pretty bold.

so to me it seems based on
1- image of what your friends think
2- Playing schools like yours, which is NOT CUSA
3- Image of what you think people think of your.opponents

What is really about is money. Kent State compared to Michigan is father off than App compared to Charleston Southern no matter how you spin it.

[SideLine Shooter]

Yes it does matter how late he is. He cannot put your program in its proper historical perspective. You haven't always been this good and Jerry Moore is no spring chicken. Your little window of dominance is closing rapidly or has closed. How many years has it been now since you won a National Championship? Not meant as smack just a sobering look at the facts. You are not going undefeated in the league anymore and regardless of what you tell yourselves even during this VERY IMPRESSIVE run of yours you have not even won the conference outright every year. It would be a mistake, in my opinion as a Son of a lifelong SoCon Football Fan and my 35 years being the same, for y'all to secede. It may be that you have to make the mistake to realize it. If you were going 14-0 every year and had won 6 in a row or something stupid like that then sure go be the SEC's homecoming queens every year but to say that you've out grown FCS and the Southern Conference because no one can compete with you is just loony tunes.

Thank you Dog. That is exactly what I have been saying since this debate started. Sorry to say that my sons do not agree with me.

[GlassOnion]

it wasn't that long ago that App was barely managing 20k a game. And was within my lifetime that there were barely making 10,000. So to say that Elon , Samford, Wofford won't ever is pretty bold.

so to me it seems based on
1- image of what your friends think
2- Playing schools like yours, which is NOT CUSA
3- Image of what you think people think of your.opponents

What is really about is money. Kent State compared to Michigan is father off than App compared to Charleston Southern no matter how you spin it.

Still being ignorant. Elon would be thrilled to have any of App's attendence averages over the last 20 years. Im getting tired of being scolded and lectured on what App is really like by the representative from a school that averages less than a third of what App does, and is tearing up its own students on their own board for not giving a sh*^ about athletics.

It is not an IMAGE thing to want to play teams that actually ARE better than Socon teams.

[ElonPride]

Still being ignorant. Elon would be thrilled to have any of App's attendence averages over the last 20 years. Im getting tired of being scolded and lectured on what App is really like by the representative from a school that averages less than a third of what App does, and is tearing up its own students on their own board for not giving a sh*^ about athletics.

It is not an IMAGE thing to want to play teams that actually ARE better than Socon teams.

Whatever makes you feel better.xrolleyesx

[PaladinFan]

Thank you Dog. That is exactly what I have been saying since this debate started. Sorry to say that my sons do not agree with me.

I agree as well.

It's all about a realistic view of the situation. Everyone on this forum wants to see their school succeed. I dare say that most on here like to see the other schools in their conference succeed. However, sometimes you have to step back and say "does this really make sense?" If it does, go for it.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

i can tell you have been a die hard app fan for at least 4 months! congrats on that notable achievement. yes the vast majority of college football fans are ignorant douchebags and you should be pleased to count yourself among them. the "gone with the wind conference".....i like that.

..or the Tara Conference. Why do you label App State as "errant?" Was the CSA errant in its reasoning for leaving the Union?. Much like the Southern States in the 1850's, ASU no longer thinks the association with the SoCon is in its best interests. Time to go.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

That's all well and good, and I agree with most of this. But the question still stands: Why badmouth the conference? At one time we fit. Now, not so much. But it's ASU thats changed, not the conference.

I respectfully disagree. For the sake of argument I going to include only football members. Although the make up at the time ASU joined in 1971 was solidly in favor of the privates / small public high academic schools, that point in time cannot be compared to today's world. As FUZE pointed out there were no sub divisions back then and when 1-aa was proposed Richmond was one of the first to proclaim they were not going to be a part of it and withdrew with full intentions of being a big time program. They had very difficult schedules and even played UNC in City Stadium (yes the same City Stadium). During the early years of 1-aa the division was given a fair amount of respect, due mostly to the NCAA's monopoly of television contracts and few national publications. With the arrival of ESPN in 1979 and Georgia's lawsuit to break up the NCAA’s TV monopoly things began to change in a swift and dramatic fashion. The CFA was formed and the "big boys" started flexing their muscles and gobbling up all the available air time. The information age was booming and cable boxes replaced antennas in homes. New regional and national TV networks sprang up and it seemed everyone was publishing a dedicated football magazine. Suddenly the only thing getting covered was big time football and 1-aa was a slippery slope to obscurity. By 1991 1-aa the SoCon consisted of 6 large public institutions (ASU, ETSU, GSU, Marshall, UTC, WCU) and 3 small schools (Citadel, Furman, VMI). The league was referred to as the SEC of 1-aa. Then in 1997 things began to change in a dramatic way. Marshall was replaced with Wofford, VMI by Elon, ETSU by Samford and today the league stands at 4 large schools & 5 small schools. The SoCon has indeed changed a lot from the days it was viewed as the best in 1-aa.

[PaladinFan]

I respectfully disagree. For the sake of argument I going to include only football members. Although the make up at the time ASU joined in 1971 was solidly in favor of the privates / small public high academic schools, that point in time cannot be compared to today's world. As FUZE pointed out there were no sub divisions back then and when 1-aa was proposed Richmond was one of the first to proclaim they were not going to be a part of it and withdrew with full intentions of being a big time program. They had very difficult schedules and even played UNC in City Stadium (yes the same City Stadium). During the early years of 1-aa the division was given a fair amount of respect, due mostly to the NCAA's monopoly of television contracts and few national publications. With the arrival of ESPN in 1979 and Georgia's lawsuit to break up the NCAA’s TV monopoly things began to change in a swift and dramatic fashion. The CFA was formed and the "big boys" started flexing their muscles and gobbling up all the available air time. The information age was booming and cable boxes replaced antennas in homes. New regional and national TV networks sprang up and it seemed everyone was publishing a dedicated football magazine. Suddenly the only thing getting covered was big time football and 1-aa was a slippery slope to obscurity. By 1991 1-aa the SoCon consisted of 6 large public institutions (ASU, ETSU, GSU, Marshall, UTC, WCU) and 3 small schools (Citadel, Furman, VMI). The league was referred to as the SEC of 1-aa. Then in 1997 things began to change in a dramatic way. Marshall was replaced with Wofford, VMI by Elon, ETSU by Samford and today the league stands at 4 large schools & 5 small schools. The SoCon has indeed changed a lot from the days it was viewed as the best in 1-aa.

I just think you guys are spinning the facts to make it suit you. You are hyper-defining these institutions. No, the Citadel isn't a typical public institution. It sure as heck isn't a typical private institution either. Its like saying I think Furman should leave the SoCon because out of nine schools, only two are private schools from the South Carolina upcountry. Furman must only be associated with small private colleges just from that part of South Carolina. It sounds foolish, doesn't it?

I don't know if you think that App moving to FBS is going to get you "covered." I noted in another post, that the Sun Belt schools really don't even outdraw the SoCon games in terms of attendance. Heck, they don't even have "SoCon Saturday." Sometimes the grass isn't always greener. Sometimes it's still just grass.

[ElonPride]

I respectfully disagree. For the sake of argument I going to include only football members. Although the make up at the time ASU joined in 1971 was solidly in favor of the privates / small public high academic schools, that point in time cannot be compared to today's world. As FUZE pointed out there were no sub divisions back then and when 1-aa was proposed Richmond was one of the first to proclaim they were not going to be a part of it and withdrew with full intentions of being a big time program. They had very difficult schedules and even played UNC in City Stadium (yes the same City Stadium). During the early years of 1-aa the division was given a fair amount of respect, due mostly to the NCAA's monopoly of television contracts and few national publications. With the arrival of ESPN in 1979 and Georgia's lawsuit to break up the NCAA’s TV monopoly things began to change in a swift and dramatic fashion. The CFA was formed and the "big boys" started flexing their muscles and gobbling up all the available air time. The information age was booming and cable boxes replaced antennas in homes. New regional and national TV networks sprang up and it seemed everyone was publishing a dedicated football magazine. Suddenly the only thing getting covered was big time football and 1-aa was a slippery slope to obscurity. By 1991 1-aa the SoCon consisted of 6 large public institutions (ASU, ETSU, GSU, Marshall, UTC, WCU) and 3 small schools (Citadel, Furman, VMI). The league was referred to as the SEC of 1-aa. Then in 1997 things began to change in a dramatic way. Marshall was replaced with Wofford, VMI by Elon, ETSU by Samford and today the league stands at 4 large schools & 5 small schools. The SoCon has indeed changed a lot from the days it was viewed as the best in 1-aa.

Trading Elon for VMI was a pretty dramatic change.....the conference is far better off having added Elon. That pretty much goes for every sport.

[citdog]

..or the Tara Conference. Why do you label App State as "errant?" Was the CSA errant in its reasoning for leaving the Union?. Much like the Southern States in the 1850's, ASU no longer thinks the association with the SoCon is in its best interests. Time to go.

THE POINT IS SECEDE ALREADY OR SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT IT. SHOWING CONTEMPT FOR THOSE WHO TOOK YOU IN WHEN YOUR DEGREE WAS NEAR WORTHLESS AND NO ONE ELSE WOULD HAVE YOU IS JUST BAD MANNERS.

[citdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hICV-U9fsEo

[citdog]

Trading Elon for VMI was a pretty dramatic change.....the conference is far better off having added Elon. That pretty much goes for every sport.

pardon me if i disagree

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

THE POINT IS SECEDE ALREADY OR SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT IT. SHOWING CONTEMPT FOR THOSE WHO TOOK YOU IN WHEN YOUR DEGREE WAS NEAR WORTHLESS AND NO ONE ELSE WOULD HAVE YOU IS JUST BAD MANNERS.

Ease up there old boy. I am not showing contempt for anyone. Your assertion the kind and gracious Southern Conference took an unworthy, homeless Mountaineer program in is slightly off base. From conversations I had with ASU administrators of the day, and I've been around a long time, the conference was in pretty sad shape in 1969 and wooed ASU heavily. I know you guys and Furman think you own this league and I probably would too if my school had been a member since before the outbreak of WWII. If I were in your shoes I'd want ASU out. If you can pull some weight and get the SoCon to swap ASU & GSU to the CAA for W&M and Richmond, then convince WCU and UTC to beat a trail to the OVC, small school nirvana would be achieved and everybody would be happy!

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

Awe.....what's the matter? You didn't enjoy losing to Elon again? Been drinkin' around water or something? xsmiley_wix

The young pups are talking smack to the old dogs.

[citdog]

Ease up there old boy. I am not showing contempt for anyone. Your assertion the kind and gracious Southern Conference took an unworthy, homeless Mountaineer program in is slightly off base. From conversations I had with ASU administrators of the day, and I've been around a long time, the conference was in pretty sad shape in 1969 and wooed ASU heavily. I know you guys and Furman think you own this league and I probably would too if my school had been a member since before the outbreak of WWII. If I were in your shoes I'd want ASU out. If you can pull some weight and get the SoCon to swap ASU & GSU to the CAA for W&M and Richmond, then convince WCU and UTC to beat a trail to the OVC, small school nirvana would be achieved and everybody would be happy!

The Southern Conference existed and thrived for DECADES before appy state and will do the same if you secede or not. Wooed heavily? I think not. Three GOOD schools left in response to your entry. VMI only returned when we called them a bunch of scalawags (ok i made that up) but they did leave until we convinced them to come back. I don't care one way or another what appy does. Stay....GREAT! Secede....GREAT! JUST MAKE UP YOUR PEACOCKIN' MIND! I saw the stats on money spent on sports in our conference the other day. Appy state isn't even #1 in YOUR OWN STATE! I don't believe that you understand how much such a move would cost you. It seems stupid to leave where you have been successful just so that you can poke out your overalls and say we play "big time" football.

[citdog]

Awe.....what's the matter? You didn't enjoy losing to Elon again? Been drinkin' around water or something? xsmiley_wix

we want to play VMI every year because we HATE them and the feeling is quite mutual in Virginia. it is hard for us to make that happen with schedule making being what it is. i have enjoyed our series with elon, just a little peeved when i see you instead of vmi on the schedule. really enjoyed thumping you on your senior day in football a few years back and making you our SoCon Baseball Tournament victims is also quite enjoyable.

i live in Charleston. EVERYWHERE i drink is around water. i never swim alone though "that dangerous"

[citdog]

The young pups are talking smack to the old dogs.

felchingius gaywadious.... if you think ANY OF THAT WAS SMACK I SUGGEST YOU JUST WAIT AND SEE. A FEW SMACK BOARD POSTER OF THE YEAR CHAMPIONS, myself included, are now back to posting here and WILL SHOW YOU WHAT SMACK IS ALL ABOUT.

[gophoenix]

Trading Elon for VMI was a pretty dramatic change.....the conference is far better off having added Elon. That pretty much goes for every sport.

The Citadel lost their arch rival. Hard to say we benefited them. Depends on how you measure benefiting. The problem was, VMI was going to leave no matter what. I want them back. In fact, I would like App to just get out and take the plague of locusts with them. Take in VMI, Tenn Tech, Coastal, SC State, Kennesaw, wh ocares.

[OL FU]

The Citadel lost their arch rival. Hard to say we benefited them. Depends on how you measure benefiting. The problem was, VMI was going to leave no matter what. I want them back. In fact, I would like App to just get out and take the plague of locusts with them. Take in VMI, Tenn Tech, Coastal, SC State, Kennesaw, wh ocares.

The Citadel lost their arch rival..............or at least the one they could regularly beat:D

[PaladinFan]

The Southern Conference existed and thrived for DECADES before appy state and will do the same if you secede or not. Wooed heavily? I think not. Three GOOD schools left in response to your entry. VMI only returned when we called them a bunch of scalawags (ok i made that up) but they did leave until we convinced them to come back. I don't care one way or another what appy does. Stay....GREAT! Secede....GREAT! JUST MAKE UP YOUR PEACOCKIN' MIND! I saw the stats on money spent on sports in our conference the other day. Appy state isn't even #1 in YOUR OWN STATE! I don't believe that you understand how much such a move would cost you. It seems stupid to leave where you have been successful just so that you can poke out your overalls and say we play "big time" football.

I did get a laugh at that.

[Apphole]

Of course a private school is better at wasting money. And it hasn't helped Elon win the SoCon or beat App. It's pretty easy to see the correlation between fans of schools that haven't beaten ASU in recent memory and those who are so outspoken and bitter. GaSo and Wofford fans are much less hostile, while fans of The Burlington School for Yankees and the Poor Man's West point get all feisty. Of course you want us to "secede." You want to be able to compete in the conference again.

[citdog]

Boy, if you think this is me being feisty well you are not acquainted with my work. I honestly don't care one way or the other but i have some app friends who are dead set against a move and they are right. If you HONESTLY think that it's appy state keeping us from being competitive in the SoCon you're a fool. It's mostly this.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMidadrRcpg

[parr90]

There are a lot of reasons why App fans have become increasingly weary of the SoCon. Ill try to be concise about this. BTW they pretty well mirror reasons for moving to the FBS.

1. We have an FBS size stadium and fan base. From a guy who has been to alot of home and away games, the difference is alarming. I've been with a lot of people on their first conference away game and I've seen a lot WTF faces when we walked into the other school's stadium. We go from 30k+, a loud and electric atmosphere, multi-million dolor facilities to TINY, quiet, high school sized stadiums. We just don't fit in. GaSo has a great following and their stadium atmosphere is very similar, but if you've been to the Rock in recent years you know that even Paulson no longer compares.

2. Winning all but 1-2 games a year is great, but it does little to excite. SoCon fans should empathize when it comes to wanting to be the underdog at least some of the time. Over the past 6 years we've only had a handfull of games in which we wer'ent favored by at least 5 points.

3. Our accomplishments are constantly undermined by the fact that we're in the SoCon. Yes we got killed by UF and LSU. Its the SEC aka the NFL jr, but look at our other recent FBS games. We had a very close game with NC State, beat #5 in the nation Michigan, and were robbed by ECU (Armanti had been attacked by a lawnmower, lost by 5 and had a missed FG and a punt snap over the head for a safety which accounts for the 5 points. Not to mention we were using our 3rd string QB and playing away, but I digress) We ARE on par with alot of these schools and we are just brushed off because we're in the FCS and especially because we're in the SoCon. It’s frustrating at points to be where we are and it creates resentment in our fan base towards the SmallCon.

Oh I wouldnt say Paulson doesnt compare any more. We average around 20,000 and you guys average around 26,000. Not a huge difference.I actually think we average a bit more than they always say because of all the people that sit on the grass hills. I remember playing in the NC in 89 where they brought in extra seating on the visiter side and endzones. If you see a picture of it they said there were only 25,000 but we have had like 22 to 23,000 since and the photo doesnt compare with the 89 pic. I think there were well over 30,000 at that one. I will say your new facilities are impressive. GSU is starting a new 52,000 square ft facility in the endzone with seats, new 15,000 sqft weight room and meeting rooms, coaching offices and so on. Plus there are plans to add another deck. I wish we would have had your AD the last few years, but finally a new pres has us going in the right direction that is something that should have been going on years ago. It helps to win doesnt it. Beating Michigan damn sure changed the scope of things in yalls house, the 3 chamships didnt hurt either. Your folks have done a great job IMO.

[Appaholic]

THE POINT IS SECEDE ALREADY OR SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT IT. SHOWING CONTEMPT FOR THOSE WHO TOOK YOU IN WHEN YOUR DEGREE WAS NEAR WORTHLESS AND NO ONE ELSE WOULD HAVE YOU IS JUST BAD MANNERS.

That statement right there, unfortunately for me as I like FCS ball, is proving the assertion IMO. The fact that all the other peon schools can't make decisions until we make a decision pretty much proves that, as suspected...APP ST IS THE SOCON!

[citdog]

That statement right there, unfortunately for me as I like FCS ball, is proving the assertion IMO. The fact that all the other peon schools can't make decisions until we make a decision pretty much proves that, as suspected...WE ARE the SOCON!

No, Appa......YOU are the SoCon! I am damn glad to be Confederated with you!

[StorminASU]

I hope GSU continues to grow and rise; it's long past due for you guys. As much as I hate GSU , I do realize you have gotten the short end of the stick for a long time. Here's to keeping the ASU-GSU rivalry up no matter where ASU finds themselves in 5 years!

[Appaholic]

I hope GSU continues to grow and rise; it's long past due for you guys. As much as I hate GSU , I do realize you have gotten the short end of the stick for a long time. Here's to keeping the ASU-GSU rivalry up no matter where ASU finds themselves in 5 years!

I think this is the year for GSU (unfortunately for App). They were very impressive at end of year. I see that momentum carrying through to this year. However, I think GSU only has GSU to blame for the short end of the stick....BVG, need we say more....

[StorminASU]

Thats one thing I love about our rivalry though...even if it's one school "year", that other school sneaks up and kicks their butt. I.E. 2007 - App just beat a small school by the name of Michigan to return home, play 6 games and lose 2 of them (GSU ending the then longest winning streak in the nation). We then went on to become National Champions. Win or lose this year, as long as App hoists another flag before GSU does, it'll be alright :p

[GAD]

Personally, I feel left out of college football in the Socon. If Im talking to my friends who went to LSU, KSU, or NC State, ECU, or even UNC, we talk football, and when the question comes up, "Whos App playing this week?" and I have to answer with a Socon team, It usually results in an "Oh. Are they anygood?" And then awkwardly reverts back to 1A discussion.

Outside of the microcosm FCS fanbase, FCS football knowledge and interest is almost non-existant, at least from what I see. I want the college football experience, not some 8,000 seat stadium with 3,000 in the stands and a high school band playing "These boots were made for walkin.'" I want to play in a conference where the opposition fanbases are just as interested in their team as App's. That is obviously not the Socon. Look at the Socon's message boards for heavens sake, The Elon board has about 1 post a week or less, the Furman and Wofford boards arent much better, and Samford looks like they have a total of 3 posters. The interest is just not there. The games themselves are not bad, its having to talk to my peers about teams that nobody gives a hoot about, or never even knew they played football.

I have found this to very true, most people out there have never heard of most of the schools on this level or lower ask the average football fan out there and they can't name more than a few teams

[citdog]

I have found this to very true, most people out there have never heard of most of the schools on this level or lower ask the average football fan out there and they can't name more than a few teams

you obviously know about them so take your buddy to a Southern game and let them be awed by Stump Mitchell's Iowa like AWESOMENESS!

[PaladinFan]

I have found this to very true, most people out there have never heard of most of the schools on this level or lower ask the average football fan out there and they can't name more than a few teams

See, but there's the dangerous position. That's where pride becomes a factor. Then it goes from "is this a good financial decision" to "we are tired of being looked down on." Care must be taken not to have an inflated view of your program. Nothing is too big to fail. No program is too good to lose.

It's easy to look at Big U and wish your team could have the same. It's a pipe dream.

[HighCountry]

I would not call App's aspirations to move up a pipe dream...

[PaladinFan]

I would not call App's aspirations to move up a pipe dream...

Not what I said. I said that trying to have what the major programs in your state have is a dream. FBS is a reality, but that reality is more likely moderately attended games against UL-Lafayette or Tulane with little to no national coverage.

The "reality" is that App will go from arguably the nation's best FCS team to the 6th best FBS team in their own state. No question that the aspiration to get to that point is a real one.

[Saint3333]

I would argue that ASU could perform as well as ECU long-term. That must be terrible playing UNC-CH, NCSU, VT, WVU, etc. at home in front of 40K+. When ECU stayed 1-A back in 1982 and ASU dropped down to 1-AA I'm sure there were fans telling ECU it was a pipe dream that they'd compete with those schools as well.