Nova Vote delayed

[Bossanova]

After a conference call today among all Big East football schools there was some concern about the size of Villanova's propposed stadium PPL Park, or specifically its capacity of 18,500.

Although Villanova was presumably ready for a yes vote from its Board of Trustees this upcoming week, this issue now delays the decision, but, does not necessarily mean Nova will not join Big East for football.

Apparently, Pitt and Rutgers were the schools leading the way about this issue.

[Skjellyfetti]

Did the Big East schools just now google PPL Park and find out its capacity or something?

[Green26]

This is consistent with what was posted a month ago. Note how many posters pooh poohed what had been posted then.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?82381-Pitt-to-block-Villanova-s-Big-East-Move

[T-Dog]

If I was UCF I would attempt and end-around to get the spot ASAP.

[Tribe4SF]

Obvious now that the schools opposed to the PPL plan are not going to waver. That plan always looked sketchy to me, and seemed to betray a shaky commitment from Nova. This was the Big East's brainchild. It's not like Nova has been building towards a move up. Maybe they will use the support developed as a foundation for a more solid plan, but I have to suspect this will now be on hold for some time.

Will be interesting to see if the delay looks like years, rather than months, if it will impact Nova's recruiting. It was clear this year that the move-up helped them get some good prospects. Kids can request a release from their LOI, and even if it's not granted can go somewhere else and sit out a year.

[bluehenbillk]

Stunned to hear this news this morning. The stadium & crowd potential was always there & was always a huge negative, don't know why after months of inaction this decision comes down within 48 hours of a VU decision. Other than Franklin Field I can't think of another option VU would have. Sadly, I'm going to guess with this news that by 2016 or sooner VU football goes the way of N'Eastern & Hofstra....

[NHwildEcat]

Stunned to hear this news this morning. The stadium & crowd potential was always there & was always a huge negative, don't know why after months of inaction this decision comes down within 48 hours of a VU decision. Other than Franklin Field I can't think of another option VU would have. Sadly, I'm going to guess with this news that by 2016 or sooner VU football goes the way of N'Eastern & Hofstra....

Why would you automatically assume that because they may not move to the BE that they will pack of their bags and end their program?

Seems far fetched to me...do you have any reasons?

[henfan]

I don't get it? Was an official offer extended by the Big East to VU to join or not? If so, was it contingent upon them landing a stadium of a particular size?

Regardless, the Big East looks really, really bad here. They've know from Day 1 that VU doesn't have access to a stadium large enough to support a major conference team. Why would they ever consider expanding with a team that doesn't have a rock solid plan for a 45K-50K seat stadium (minimum) and a plan for filling a majority of those seats?

And I thought the Atlantic 10 was clueless about football.xoopsx

[bluehenbillk]

Why would you automatically assume that because they may not move to the BE that they will pack of their bags and end their program?

Seems far fetched to me...do you have any reasons?

Sure...VU probably loses more money than any CAA football team, their attendance is extremely low in terms of paying customers. Take out the students and take out people that have comp tickets that are filtered through the local community & very few people pay to see a VU FB game. A move to the Big East & more name opponents & more importantly TV & Bowl money were the reasons VU was looking at this opportunity. Combine that with the malaise that will hit the few Villanova fans out there after getting teased with a Big East invite I'd expect attendance to go down if anything. Remember, this is a school that has already dropped football once (around 1980-81), so there is precedent for it happening again.

[henfan]

Remember, this is a school that has already dropped football once (around 1980-81), so there is precedent for it happening again.

And those who were among the most ardent supporters of FB reclassification were, not coincidentally, among those who supported the FB re-start in the '80's and reclassification in the '90's.

[Redbird Ray]

Why can't Nova just share Franklin Field with Penn? Penn's never leaving the Ivy league, what do they care?

Second, aren't most MLS stadiums built with expansion capabilities these days? While it wouldn't be much, couldn't PPL be expanded to 30K or so? It would be a Vandy, Cincy, Wash St kind of BCS capacity, but a reasonable BCS capacity right?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You want to know what I think? The whole stadium thing is just a red herring. I think Pitt and Rutgers want to join the Big Ten in football, and they are trying to deep-six a Villanova move-up because they know it will solidify the Big East in terms of football, making it near-impossible to leave.

This explains Pitt's and Rutgers' last-minute antics. I have to believe they're not total idiots; they are perfectly capable of typing "PPL Park" in Google. They're trying to make a late surge to turn over the apple cart since they know Villanova's close to announcing a move up.

Pitt and Rutgers want the cow (Big East basketball, so they don't have to pay $$ on Olympic sports) and the milk (Big Ten football, and all those checks) for free. Villanova football makes it a lot harder for them to achieve their dream.

The key is not what Rutgers and Pitt say, and their own dreams of making money. It's Villanova's decision. It will not be derailed by the Scarlet Knights or Panthers. Only Villanovans can start FBS or maintain in FCS.

[carney2]

Why can't Nova just share Franklin Field with Penn? Penn's never leaving the Ivy league, what do they care?

Franklin Field is one of my all-time favorite football venues,

BUT

zero parking with no possibilities to correct the problem, and in an undesirable, high crime neighborhood that is some distance from the Villanova campus.

[DFW HOYA]

You want to know what I think? The whole stadium thing is just a red herring. I think Pitt and Rutgers want to join the Big Ten in football, and they are trying to deep-six a Villanova move-up because they know it will solidify the Big East in terms of football, making it near-impossible to leave.
Except that Pitt's not a candidate for the Big Ten because the B10 already covers the Pitt market with Penn State.

The presumed candidates going forward are Rutgers and Maryland (zzzzzz.....).


Franklin Field is one of my all-time favorite football venues, BUT zero parking with no possibilities to correct the problem, and in an undesirable, high crime neighborhood that is some distance from the Villanova campus.

30-34th St. (Franklin Field) is probably better than Chester.

[bluehenbillk]

Agreed with the above on Franklin Field area being bad parking/tailgating but not a crime issue. Chester - worst crime area in the state of PA.

[superman7515]

Franklin Field is one of my all-time favorite football venues,

BUT

zero parking with no possibilities to correct the problem, and in an undesirable, high crime neighborhood that is some distance from the Villanova campus.

Not to mention that the Big East would then have to wait to finish their schedule until after the Ivy League finished theirs as Penn would obviously have right of first use. Would a BCS league like to know it can't finish it's conference schedule until an FCS league makes theirs?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Except that Pitt's not a candidate for the Big Ten because the B10 already covers the Pitt market with Penn State.

The presumed candidates going forward are Rutgers and Maryland (zzzzzz.....).

That's true, but remember, this is the perspective of Pitt admins we're talking about, who see this differently. They see it as a possible renewal of their rivalry with Penn State, and, of course, those checks. Don't confuse Pitt admins with little facts about the Big Ten's interest or motivations (next to none), it's about their desires and what they hope their program to be some day.

The questions that should be asked here are: Who stand to benefit the most from a Big East breakup in football? Why, Pitt and Rutgers, of course, especially if you overweight the Big Ten's interest in them. Everyone else has a lot more invested in the Big East. Syracuse is intimately intertwined with Big East basketball. So is UConn. So is West Virginia. Cincinnati and USF would rapidly return to the hell of C-USA-style conferences without the Big East. Louisville might fare better, but there's zero way they'd be involved in the Big Ten. And TCU, of course, wants that BCS bid.

All signs point to the stadium being more of an excuse rather than a reason. If it were schools like Cincy or USF arguing against Villanova joining, it would be one thing. But all signs point to some sort of cynical power play rather than genuine reasons for not having Villanova go to FBS.

[rufus]

This is a strange development, which does not appear to bode well for Villanova.

[DFW HOYA]

I guess I see this as less nefarious and more revenue driven--would you let a school into your league playing at a stadium half the size of every other league member that wasn't even built for the sport? Oh, wait, the PL did...

But seriously, what Villanova needs to bring to the table is a $40-50 million plan for a 30,000 seat quick-build bleacher stadium in Conshohocken that will use PPL as a short-term provision only.

[GannonFan]

I guess I see this as less nefarious and more revenue driven--would you let a school into your league playing at a stadium half the size of every other league member that wasn't even built for the sport? Oh, wait, the PL did...

But seriously, what Villanova needs to bring to the table is a $40-50 million plan for a 30,000 seat quick-build bleacher stadium in Conshohocken that will use PPL as a short-term provision only.

First of all, can you build something that big for that money? PPL was an 18k seat stadium built for $130M, several years ago. JMU's putting another 10k seats in for $60M. And then you get to the other obstacle of where you'd even put a 30k seat stadium in Conshohocken and who'd give you the permit to build that. If nova had that option of a place to build a stadium then they would've moved a long time ago. There is no miracle land in Delaware or Montgomery Counties to build a stadium and there won't be one. That's always been the odd thing about this - the stadium issue was always there and there was never an answer for it. The Linc? Never, the Eagles don't even want Temple there. PPL? Seats under 20k and good luck finding the money and willingness to expand it to 30K, and even then, it's still in Chester. Franklin Field? Where to park, how to upgrade a place that's falling down, and really, you need to wait until the Ivy League sets their schedule?

This is almost the deathknell of nova football - they couldn't get people to go to games before, how are they going to get people to go now after teasing Big East membership and then pulling it away? Looks like 1981 all over again.

[JMUDuke2002]

First of all, can you build something that big for that money? PPL was an 18k seat stadium built for $130M, several years ago. JMU's putting another 10k seats in for $60M. And then you get to the other obstacle of where you'd even put a 30k seat stadium in Conshohocken and who'd give you the permit to build that. If nova had that option of a place to build a stadium then they would've moved a long time ago. There is no miracle land in Delaware or Montgomery Counties to build a stadium and there won't be one. That's always been the odd thing about this - the stadium issue was always there and there was never an answer for it. The Linc? Never, the Eagles don't even want Temple there. PPL? Seats under 20k and good luck finding the money and willingness to expand it to 30K, and even then, it's still in Chester. Franklin Field? Where to park, how to upgrade a place that's falling down, and really, you need to wait until the Ivy League sets their schedule?

This is almost the deathknell of nova football - they couldn't get people to go to games before, how are they going to get people to go now after teasing Big East membership and then pulling it away? Looks like 1981 all over again.

I give you Central Florida's all bleacher, no frills stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_House_Networks_Stadium

55 million for 45K in seats.

Also, stop putting out that false number that JMU is spending 62 million on only 10K in seats. Total capacity is only going up by a little over 10K, but that is after JMU took out 7500 permanent seats and won't add 2500 in temp bleachers in the endzone. The new sideline and endzone will seat 20,000. So, JMU spent 62 million for 20,000. Still a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

[bluehenbillk]

You're underestimating the value of land alone that VU would have to shell out in the Philly-metro area for a stadium. GF is right, there isn't gong to be something new built anywhere.

[JMUDuke2002]

You're underestimating the value of land alone that VU would have to shell out in the Philly-metro area for a stadium. GF is right, there isn't gong to be something new built anywhere.

Oh, I don't disagree. But, a 30K stadium that is all bleacher could be built for 50 million. I never said where the land would come from.

Nova sees what's coming which is why they want on now, not later.

[DFW HOYA]

$62 million, less naming rights:

http://rightwayplumbing.com/images/FAU_Stadium.jpg

[GannonFan]

I give you Central Florida's all bleacher, no frills stadium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_House_Networks_Stadium

55 million for 45K in seats.

Also, stop putting out that false number that JMU is spending 62 million on only 10K in seats. Total capacity is only going up by a little over 10K, but that is after JMU took out 7500 permanent seats and won't add 2500 in temp bleachers in the endzone. The new sideline and endzone will seat 20,000. So, JMU spent 62 million for 20,000. Still a lot, but not as much as people seem to think.

As BHBK said, if you don't have the land to begin with (as well as the transportation upgrades that would be mandatory with such a land improvement) $55M isn't going to get you very far in this part of the country. There's no chance that nova builds what UCF built for the same money.

And what did I say that was false? JMU's seating capacity, as you agree weirdly enough, goes up about 10k and they're spending $62M to do so. The net number is what I was referring to and really, in a stadium expansion, who ever looks at anything but the net change?

[GannonFan]

$62 million, less naming rights:

http://rightwayplumbing.com/images/FAU_Stadium.jpg

Super. Now where does the land come from? And tell me how the transportation upgrades get done and who pays for them? It took the state 40 years to build the Blue Route, and even once it opened it was undersized. Having a pretty stadium is great, but you need a place to put it and a way to get to it. Not sure how often you've been in the Delco/Montco areas, but nova doesn't have an answer to either one of those questions.

[rufus]

And what did I say that was false? JMU's seating capacity, as you agree weirdly enough, goes up about 10k and they're spending $62M to do so. The net number is what I was referring to and really, in a stadium expansion, who ever looks at anything but the net change?

The statement is not false, but could potentially be misleading. If we're talking about expansion, rather than new construction, then JMU's $62 million for 10,000 seats is accurate. JMU's expansion effort is also extremely expensive on a per-seat basis ($6,200 per seat). App State's 2008 addition of 4,400 seats was around $8.3 million ($1886 per seat). If JMU were just adding seats, the price would not be so high. The building of the press box, suites, etc. add to the cost considerably.

I don't know what Villanova would have to do to PPL to satisfy the Big East's concerns, but simply adding capacity may not be that expensive. If they need to build more suites, etc., then the story changes.

[JMUDuke2002]

As BHBK said, if you don't have the land to begin with (as well as the transportation upgrades that would be mandatory with such a land improvement) $55M isn't going to get you very far in this part of the country. There's no chance that nova builds what UCF built for the same money.

And what did I say that was false? JMU's seating capacity, as you agree weirdly enough, goes up about 10k and they're spending $62M to do so. The net number is what I was referring to and really, in a stadium expansion, who ever looks at anything but the net change?

I don't feel like taking the time to find every post on here, the Zone and elsewhere wherein you state that JMU is blowing 62 mil on 10K worth of seats. It's simply not true. I never said you made a false statement, but false numbers. JMU is spending 62 million for 20,000 seats plus suites, demolition and scoreboard.

Now back the topic at hand. I think some Big East members finally woke up and realized Nova isn't UConn. Nova brings nothing, NOTHING to the Big East. They don't control the Philly market--no school, except maybe PSU, controlls Philly--let alone Nova. With this move, I foresee a day coming soon where the football schools finally give the private, BB schools the finger and take their money elsewhere.

[T-Dog]

UCF's stadium has been cited numerous times for structural inadequacies. Several students have said they don't feel safe watching a game there.

[TexasTerror]

** YAWN **

http://i.imgur.com/0mkM0.png

[VUCats02]

A couple points. While Chester isn't very safe, some people are acting like everyone would have to wear bullet-proof vests going to a Nova football game there. The area that PPL Park is in is extremely safe and separated from the sketchy areas. Nova wouldn't even consider it if they felt it was an unsafe area.

Some people seem to think Nova is "doomed" if they don't make the jump. Things will just be like how they always have been - not sure why Nova would be doomed? I've always said (started saying this last year when this whole thing started) I wouldn't mind staying at this level one bit. It'd be exciting to make the jump, but I enjoy FCS football and love going to VU stadium for games against JMU, Delaware, Richmond, W@M, etc. Nova will always be a basketball school and I will always be a bigger Nova basketball fan than football fan as will all other Nova supporters, so I don't understand when people think that not making the jump would destroy Nova (not pointing anyone out on this board - but many people do think it). Football season is just a nice prequel to the basketball season, and even if Nova moves up, it will still be that way. It would just give a little more assurance that Nova's basketball program is safe, but I'm a non-believer that the FB and non FB schools will split, and even if they did, I don't see the BE dropping Nova, Georgetown, or St. Johns from basketball.

Just my opinion on this.

[doolittledog]

Since PPL Park already has in it's design the capability to increase capacity to 30K. Wouldn't it be cheaper for Villinova to pay for a 12k upgrade to that existing stadium? Or even split that cost with the Philly MLS team?

[henfan]

While Chester isn't very safe, some people are acting like everyone would have to wear bullet-proof vests going to a Nova football game there. The area that PPL Park is in is extremely safe and separated from the sketchy areas. Nova wouldn't even consider it if they felt it was an unsafe area.

Extremely safe is an extreme understatement. On the good side, you probably won't get mugged or worse on your way from the lots to PPL, since cops are everywhere on game day.

Parking is indeed though the least attractive thing about PPL; it's a complete nightmare. Be prepared to pay $20 to park in unpaved lots filled with trash & broken glass. The few lots that are patrolled by PPL security are certainly safer than parking off location. The church lot fairly close to PPL has a limited number of parking spaces and has a safe, clean lot for $15. Certainly a bargain. Traffic is a logjam after the game. I'd seriously recommend not making any wrong turns after you leave the stadium on the way home. Lovely stadium once you're inside.

Hope VU has a plan in place to clear out parking spots and provide security for all of those WVU RV's that will be rolling down Highland Ave. xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Since PPL Park already has in it's design the capability to increase capacity to 30K. Wouldn't it be cheaper for Villinova to pay for a 12k upgrade to that existing stadium? Or even split that cost with the Philly MLS team?

That is a possibility, but even 30k is very small. It will also make it all but impossible for Nova to attract big name OOC games at home, and make it very difficult to generate adequate ticket sales to reap the benefits of being FBS.

[GannonFan]

Since PPL Park already has in it's design the capability to increase capacity to 30K. Wouldn't it be cheaper for Villinova to pay for a 12k upgrade to that existing stadium? Or even split that cost with the Philly MLS team?

Having the capability to expand doesn't mean it'll be cheap. The place cost $130M to build in the first place. Expanding it by 66% is still going to run some $40M-$50M at least, and that's on top of what nova has already said they'd need to spend ($30M) just to make the move in terms of covering schollies and other facility needs. Then factor in that MLS teams generally don't want to play in stadiums they can't fill and the Union may actually be against increasing it past its current size. They don't have final say on the stadium, but it was built for them in mind so they may be a nay vote to going above it's current design.

[GannonFan]

That is a possibility, but even 30k is very small. It will also make it all but impossible for Nova to attract big name OOC games at home, and make it very difficult to generate adequate ticket sales to reap the benefits of being FBS.

Yup, Penn St isn't going there and neither is a Notre Dame. nova's OOC home schedule as an FBS team could actually be worse than it is as an FCS team - of course, the conference schedule would be better, but they'd be playing a lot of road money games if they move.

[superman7515]

A couple points. While Chester isn't very safe, some people are acting like everyone would have to wear bullet-proof vests going to a Nova football game there. The area that PPL Park is in is extremely safe and separated from the sketchy areas. Nova wouldn't even consider it if they felt it was an unsafe area.

Didn't they just shoot ten students at a party two nights ago killing two of them? Chester isn't THAT big.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two points of information that might inform this debate a bit more:

1) It is still possible that "big games" could be arranged to be played at Citizens Bank Park or Franklin Field. Yes, scheduling is an issue, especially in October (at CBP) and the IL season (at Franklin), but the fact remains that there are a lot of possible ways to schedule big-name opponents and get a bigger venue for those games. Furthermore, one you get past Thanksgiving, Franklin Field and/or CBP is empty. You could pull in Syracuse, West Virginia or another big conference opponent without a problem.

2) This past weekend, the Union sold out their game against the New York Red Bulls. That's correct, sold out. They may be a lot less averse to expanding their stadium than many here think.

[bluehenbillk]

Didn't they just shoot ten students at a party two nights ago killing two of them? Chester isn't THAT big.

Yes, thats correct.

[doolittledog]

The Union wanted to build a bigger stadium. During the economic down turn 18k was all they were able to afford to get built. I think they would listen to anyone that wanted to share costs or completely pay for an expansion. As long as the Union still was able to control dates at PPL. PPL would certainly have more amenities than your average college football stadium since it was built for a pro team. It's a lot nicer than Pizza Hut Park and I know there were a lot of FCS fans that liked that place for the recent FCS championship game. Portland St. and soon Texas Southern will really enjoy sharing MLS stadiums.

[superman7515]

Yes, thats correct.

Yeah, that shooting was just a few blocks away, less than 1/2 a mile from PPL Park.

[bluehenbillk]

For those of you that have never been there, saying there are "nicer parts of Chester" is like saying there are "smellier parts of a fart". Chester has been a hole for decades.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As a Temple alum i'm hoping the Big East tells Villanova to get lost over the stadium situation. If Villanova stays at the FCS level or drops the program Temple will benefit from being the only FBS program in Philly. We just need to find a long term conference. The MAC situation is going to end sooner rather than later.

[VUCats02]

I'll stick to my original statement and say that Nova would not even consider PPL Park if they thought it'd be unsafe. It wouldn't have even been discussed. You hear things in the media and think that you can't even go there to get something to eat without the risk of getting shot. I'm not saying Chester is safe but it's safer than people think, and the area where PPL Park is located is way safer than people think.

The campuses of St. Joe's and Temple are less safe. Get real - the argument that PPL Park is in one of the worst parts of PA is the lamest excuse to show evidence that Nova shouldn't play there. It would be perfectly fine and it truly is a beautiful stadium. I'd much rather play at PPL than the linc. CBP, on the other hand, would be the best option, but obviously it's pretty much unusable during football season. The Phillies need to go back to how they were 5-10 years ago so they can miss the postseason on an annual basis :-P

[GannonFan]

Two points of information that might inform this debate a bit more:

1) It is still possible that "big games" could be arranged to be played at Citizens Bank Park or Franklin Field. Yes, scheduling is an issue, especially in October (at CBP) and the IL season (at Franklin), but the fact remains that there are a lot of possible ways to schedule big-name opponents and get a bigger venue for those games. Furthermore, one you get past Thanksgiving, Franklin Field and/or CBP is empty. You could pull in Syracuse, West Virginia or another big conference opponent without a problem.

2) This past weekend, the Union sold out their game against the New York Red Bulls. That's correct, sold out. They may be a lot less averse to expanding their stadium than many here think.

The question about "big games" was about OOC teams - nova, if they move up, will get those Big East games at home regardless of where they play. Penn St or Notre Dame or a school like that isn't going to play at Citizens Bank or Franklin Field. And that's assuming you can even play at Citizens Bank (1, I haven't heard the Phillies say they are looking for football games in late Fall, when grass is hard to grow, to muck up their field and 2)other than some nova posters saying so, has anyone verified you can fit a football field in that park and not have to play offense always going on direction ala Wrigley Field?).

As for the Union, yes, they sold out a game against their closest and most fiercest rival. When Chivas and Real Salt Lake come in later in the year, let's see the numbers. Other than Seattle, no one in MLS averages more than 21k right now, so building a 30k seat stadium would seem to be "optimistic". And using Red Bull as an example, they are in one of the more dense soccer areas in the country in North Jersey, have a good team with European attractions, and they only have a 25k capacity stadium, of which they only average 18k in (72% of capacity). All of MLS recently has been built on soccer specific stadiums that aren't too big to fill consistently - seeming to think that the Union want to boost capacity by 66% after just one year is apparently defying the script of what's been working.

[VUCats02]

GannonFan. There were very few Red Bull fans in attendance for that game. Plus, did you really just refer to the Red Bulls as a "most fiercest" rival of the Union? C'mon Man! It's the Union's second year of existence!

[GannonFan]

The Union wanted to build a bigger stadium. During the economic down turn 18k was all they were able to afford to get built. I think they would listen to anyone that wanted to share costs or completely pay for an expansion. As long as the Union still was able to control dates at PPL. PPL would certainly have more amenities than your average college football stadium since it was built for a pro team. It's a lot nicer than Pizza Hut Park and I know there were a lot of FCS fans that liked that place for the recent FCS championship game. Portland St. and soon Texas Southern will really enjoy sharing MLS stadiums.

Portland St and Texas Southern aren't BCS teams - stadium capacity is not an issue with either one. And again, there's no way the Union is ready to go to 30k seats anytime soon - they don't want to play in front of 12k empty seats in just year 2 of their existence.

[GannonFan]

GannonFan. There were very few Red Bull fans in attendance for that game. Plus, did you really just refer to the Red Bulls as a "most fiercest" rival of the Union? C'mon Man! It's the Union's second year of existence!

Hey, I understand you may not know much about soccer, and I frankly am embarrassed a little to know what I know, but if you don't believe there is real animosity and "rivalness" between the Union and the Red Bulls then you really haven't been paying attention. It's the closest to a derby as you can get for the Union.

[Go...gate]

Surely Villanova would not drop football completely if it did not join the Big East, would it? The CAA is an excellent FCS conference and VU is highly successful on an annual basis.

[WMTribe90]

Yeah, I don't think VU drops football just because they aren't going BCS. Might be the case if they didn't have BE basketball to help balance the book. Not a good situation, but one they've managed to sustain for decades. The (FCS) product on the field has never been better and attendance, while poor, has actually improved somewhat with the success.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Sounds like May 31 is now the deadline for a decision.

[GannonFan]

Sounds like May 31 is now the deadline for a decision.

Not sure how anything really changes between now and then. PPL will still be PPL - it will be in Chester, it will be a soccer first stadium, and nova will be a tennant. No other stadium options really exist. And expanding the place still has all the hurdles next month that it does this month, and the biggest being the cost and that nova would really need to foot most of, if not all of the bill. And even then it would still be the smallest in the conference and the conference has been pushing Cincy for years to increase their's to over 40k.

The only thing I could see changing is if nova agrees to less money to finance the move - apparently they were going to take the Temple approach and try to leech off of Big East money to do this. Maybe Pitt and Rutgers get less concerned about this is nova agrees to take less WIC money from them? I doubt it, but I didn't think the Big East would pull the rug out from under nova at the 11th hour either.

[GannonFan]

Yeah, I don't think VU drops football just because they aren't going BCS. Might be the case if they didn't have BE basketball to help balance the book. Not a good situation, but one they've managed to sustain for decades. The (FCS) product on the field has never been better and attendance, while poor, has actually improved somewhat with the success.

Well, they've only managed it for two decades (it's only been about two decades since they brought back football, and the first years were DIII type ball), and they've managed it always with the potential there that they could move up. My opinion is that they would drop football eventually if they don't move up. They would no longer have the carrot of moving up to FBS football to entice people, so they would permanently be playing the likes of the teams they do today (and one of the big drivers in this whole FBS push was that they wouldn't have to play the likes of Towson, Maine, and others any more). They lose gobs of money today on football, so that will likely never change. Talley is almost 70 years old and you have to figure he has less than a decade left to coach and he's been nova football since they brought the program back. Once he leaves, does his replacement have the leverage and status that Talley does? Unlikely. And the cost will continue to be a burden - nova's made a big step to increase their lacrosse program by pairing up with 'Cuse and a real Big East conference - does football drag that down if it's not in the Big East and is pulling all those millions away in financial losses? And let's be honest - there is no support for the team at the current level. It's a small group of diehards, a smattering of students at best, and then family and friends. nova still comps tons of tickets to the local area and people still don't come even though it's free. It won't happen right away, but I don't think the program lasts very long once Talley leaves, if they stay FCS.

[Tribe4SF]

From a Nova fan on their board. This seems to sum it up.

"We have NO fan base, historical or otherwise
We have NO onsite venue
We have "plans" to play in a soccer stadium that seats 18,000
We have an inept administration with a misguided sense of entitlement

Yet:
We blame the Big East
We blame Pitt and others

Geez, what's wrong with this picture?"

[VUCats02]

Well, they've only managed it for two decades (it's only been about two decades since they brought back football, and the first years were DIII type ball), and they've managed it always with the potential there that they could move up. My opinion is that they would drop football eventually if they don't move up. They would no longer have the carrot of moving up to FBS football to entice people, so they would permanently be playing the likes of the teams they do today (and one of the big drivers in this whole FBS push was that they wouldn't have to play the likes of Towson, Maine, and others any more). They lose gobs of money today on football, so that will likely never change. Talley is almost 70 years old and you have to figure he has less than a decade left to coach and he's been nova football since they brought the program back. Once he leaves, does his replacement have the leverage and status that Talley does? Unlikely. And the cost will continue to be a burden - nova's made a big step to increase their lacrosse program by pairing up with 'Cuse and a real Big East conference - does football drag that down if it's not in the Big East and is pulling all those millions away in financial losses? And let's be honest - there is no support for the team at the current level. It's a small group of diehards, a smattering of students at best, and then family and friends. nova still comps tons of tickets to the local area and people still don't come even though it's free. It won't happen right away, but I don't think the program lasts very long once Talley leaves, if they stay FCS.

Nova had more students show up at the linc than all of the FCS games combined (other than parents weekend and homecoming)....and that was on a Thursday afternoon. The fan potential is there. Unfortunately, nobody wants to see FCS competition here which is a shame. The Upenn Nova game should have been a sell out as it was a huge rival game on a Saturday night - yet way more students and fans will go into Philly on a Thursday afternoon to see Nova vs Temple.

I know you would like to see Nova drop its football program so Delaware would be able to finally win its last game of the season - but if Nova doesn't make the jump I just don't see them dropping the program. That's even more extreme than making the jump to the Big East.

[GannonFan]

Nova had more students show up at the linc than all of the FCS games combined (other than parents weekend and homecoming)....and that was on a Thursday afternoon. The fan potential is there. Unfortunately, nobody wants to see FCS competition here which is a shame. The Upenn Nova game should have been a sell out as it was a huge rival game on a Saturday night - yet way more students and fans will go into Philly on a Thursday afternoon to see Nova vs Temple.

I know you would like to see Nova drop its football program so Delaware would be able to finally win its last game of the season - but if Nova doesn't make the jump I just don't see them dropping the program. That's even more extreme than making the jump to the Big East.

Thursday afternoon (leading into Thursday night) in Philly at the start of a long Labor Day weekend at the very start of school during good weather will always result in getting lots of students and a good turnout. However, I'm not sure how that translates into getting a good turnout in crappy weather in the middle of November at the end of the semester to see a middling football team playing out the string against say a similar Cincinnati team. Oh, and in Chester to boot. And remember, nova didn't have a single sellout (and not even anything over 20k) and only averaged just over 16k to see a top 10 ranked nova basketball team this year at the Wells Fargo Center while playing top 20 and top 10 teams like Louisville, 'Cuse, Gtown, WVa, Maryland, and others. So in a college basketball town, in nova's best and most prominent sport, playing a great schedule and being nationally ranked, and highly, they could only fill 3/4 of the Wells Fargo Center. But somehow, in a pro football town, playing a middling to sometimes mediocre (OOC games that will likely be MEAC schools ala what Rutgers has done) home schedule, being a team that will probably never crack the top 25 and playing few if any teams in the top 25, while playing in a soccer stadium in Chester will exceed what nova does for basketball? And you wonder why the Big East actually stepped back from the brink and reassessed what they were doing?

And as for sticking around, hey, congrats to nova, they've won 5 straight against the Hens - way to go. The Hens won 3 straight against nova before that began. Funny, how a series as fairly even as this one is that teams go on streaks. It happens. The Hens still went to 2 national title games during that streak (nova of course, went to and won once) so it's not really hindering us too badly. But tell me why nova would still have football if they don't move up. I gave you my reasons - why are those reasons false? Why would nova hang around if the option to move up was forever removed as a possibility? I don't know if the '02 in your moniker is your graduating year, but if it is, you obviously don't remember the climate that was there in 1980 when they dropped it before. Plenty of similiarities between then and now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And let's be honest - there is no support for the team at the current level. It's a small group of diehards, a smattering of students at best, and then family and friends. nova still comps tons of tickets to the local area and people still don't come even though it's free. It won't happen right away, but I don't think the program lasts very long once Talley leaves, if they stay FCS.


Nova had more students show up at the linc than all of the FCS games combined (other than parents weekend and homecoming)....and that was on a Thursday afternoon. The fan potential is there. Unfortunately, nobody wants to see FCS competition here which is a shame. The Upenn Nova game should have been a sell out as it was a huge rival game on a Saturday night - yet way more students and fans will go into Philly on a Thursday afternoon to see Nova vs Temple.

I think most of the problems with Villanova's attendance are, to be charitable, institutional in nature. Football has consistently been treated like the red-headed stepchild. They get next to no support from the administration. They make little to no effort to cultivate any sort of interest in the team.

To take a tiny example, I submit to you the Lehigh/Villanova game last year.

As a Lehigh fan, I thought that the Wildcats, coming off their national championship season, would see a bump in attendance. You'd think some students would make a CAR TRIP to Lehigh for an AFTERNOON game to watch their defending national champions. They'd have been home in time to be on South Street by 9:00 PM. But you'd be wrong.

Why? Well, Villanova chose to hold their annual Volunteer Day on the same weekend at the same time that the Lehigh game was played. This all but guaranteed a low turnout to follow the team. I realize it's a road game, but c'mon. This is no way to support a team that has designs on Big East membership.

Questions abound from this. Couldn't Volunteer Day be on a Friday? Couldn't buses be commissioned to bring fans and students to the Lehigh game? Couldn't any sort of liasion be nurtured or supported between the students and the football team?

It's striking that James Madison, Richmond, Eastern Washington can get a bump in interest in their programs - some of them quite large - after a national championship, but Villanova had nothing resembling it. The blame I put on that is squarely on the administration. I'm not saying they should have been selling out every game, but there's simple, cheap things they could have done to raise the excitement level for the student body.

I am not a fan of blaming the students for lack of attendance and engaging in the circular logic that "they just don't go to the games". It is my feeling that enthusiastic students frequently hit brick walls set up from the administration more often than a student body is "apathetic". Trust me as a Lehigh fan who has seen student attendance at Lehigh games decrease steadily as more draconian tailgate rules are set up year after year.

[GannonFan]

My wife is a nova grad - big time follower of the basketball team. As most nova grads, she knows absolutely nothing about the football program. She didn't even know that they played Delaware every year until we met. True to form, she knew nothing about nova's potential move to move to FBS until she got the e-mail survey, and even then, didn't know anything about an impending vote and the Big East step in until I told her yesterday. She's pretty typical of most alums - nova has very little in terms of alumni giveback and their endowment is a result of that. It's one thing to say they should organize student buses to go up to the Lehigh game, but the reality is, the problem is far, far deeper than that. Same thing with a top 10 b-ball team playing a 1/4 empty arena in South Philly against other top 10 teams. The fanbase just isn't there.

[grayghost06]

It can be done and has been done before:

Temple University played its home football games at Temple Stadium until the late-1970s. Temple Stadium had opened in 1928 and sat up to 34,000 for football games. Through the years, Temple had played home games at Franklin Field when anticipated crowds would exceed Temple Stadium's capacity. Temple moved its home games to Veterans Stadium in the late-1970s but the Phillies had first priority for the field for Saturdays through the duration of the baseball season which ends the last week in September. When Temple home games conflicted with Phillies home games, Temple would play at Franklin Field. This continued through the 2002 season, Temple's final year at the Vet before the Owls moved into Lincoln Financial Field as tenants of the Eagles.[28] One of the last Temple football games at Franklin Field was a 44-21 loss to the number one ranked Miami Hurricanes on September 14, 2002. Miami's Willis McGahee rushed for 134 yards and four touchdowns in front of 33,169 fans.[29]

Games against lesser opponents could be at the soccer stadium. Conference games could be at Franklin Field with some upgrades. If the Big East really wants this to happen, they'll lend a hand. Surely they didn't think 'Nova was going to miraculously come up w/ an on campus stadium.

[WMTribe90]

Villanova flirted with BE football membership in 1996 and obviously it didn't happen at that time and the program wasn't folded as a result. To my knowledge, there was no strong push for BE membership between 1996 and six months ago when this issue resurfaced. Not arguing the VU struggles mightily with attendance and overall support or that the program is a financial drain. The recent national level success only brought a small uptick in support, so if a NC can't do it, obviously nothing will improve VU attendance at the FCS level.

I just don't see why some UD fans gleefully predict this decision will bring about the iminent demise of the program. Talley, like Laycock, isn't going anywhere and shows no sign of wanting to retire anytime soon. The same diehard fans will be back next year. The b-ball program will subsidize the football loses next year like it has for the last 20 years, since the program was revivied. Nothing has fundamentally changed. I don't beleve for a second that VU football has been kept alive since 1996 on the long shot that BE football membership would become reality. If BE memebership was really the goal of the program they would have been actively pursuing facility improvements and an acceptable stadium long before the present.

Nope, see the UD vs VU lovefest comtinuing for several years to come.

[GannonFan]

It can be done and has been done before:

Temple University played its home football games at Temple Stadium until the late-1970s. Temple Stadium had opened in 1928 and sat up to 34,000 for football games. Through the years, Temple had played home games at Franklin Field when anticipated crowds would exceed Temple Stadium's capacity. Temple moved its home games to Veterans Stadium in the late-1970s but the Phillies had first priority for the field for Saturdays through the duration of the baseball season which ends the last week in September. When Temple home games conflicted with Phillies home games, Temple would play at Franklin Field. This continued through the 2002 season, Temple's final year at the Vet before the Owls moved into Lincoln Financial Field as tenants of the Eagles.[28] One of the last Temple football games at Franklin Field was a 44-21 loss to the number one ranked Miami Hurricanes on September 14, 2002. Miami's Willis McGahee rushed for 134 yards and four touchdowns in front of 33,169 fans.[29]

Games against lesser opponents could be at the soccer stadium. Conference games could be at Franklin Field with some upgrades. If the Big East really wants this to happen, they'll lend a hand. Surely they didn't think 'Nova was going to miraculously come up w/ an on campus stadium.

I think the Big East made it a point a decade ago that they didn't want to have stadiums that had same day complications. Since Penn would get first dibs, they would need to wait until Penn and the Ivy League set their schedules before the Big East could finalize theirs, and that complicates TV deals (deals which I'm sure don't allow for such inflexibilities).

As for upgrading Franklin Field, have you been there lately? "Some upgrades", to get it to the point that you can have 30k-40k people consistently, aren't going to come cheap. The stadium is about 90 years old now (at least the bottom level, and the top level not far behind) - nothing would be cheap there.

[GannonFan]

Villanova flirted with BE football membership in 1996 and obviously it didn't happen at that time and the program wasn't folded as a result. To my knowledge, there was no strong push for BE membership between 1996 and six months ago when this issue resurfaced. Not arguing the VU struggles mightily with attendance and overall support or that the program is a financial drain. The recent national level success only brought a small uptick in support, so if a NC can't do it, obviously nothing will improve VU attendance at the FCS level.

I just don't see why some UD fans gleefully predict this decision will bring about the iminent demise of the program. Talley, like Laycock, isn't going anywhere and shows no sign of wanting to retire anytime soon. The same diehard fans will be back next year. The b-ball program will subsidize the football loses next year like it has for the last 20 years, since the program was revivied. Nothing has fundamentally changed. I don't beleve for a second that VU football has been kept alive since 1996 on the long shot that BE football membership would become reality. If BE memebership was really the goal of the program they would have been actively pursuing facility improvements and an acceptable stadium long before the present.

Nope, see the UD vs VU lovefest comtinuing for several years to come.

Actually it was 1997 when they flirted - same time as UConn.

But there's plenty different this time around. If they don't move up this time, it's likely to be final. There was no final nail in the coffin last time, just nova passing on the opportunity. This time if they don't go, it'll be because the Big East didn't let them (by most accounts they have enough internal support, split as they may be, to say yes if an invite becomes formal). Having your own conference for everything else tell you that you can't move up is pretty final. As has been recounted here over and over, a stadium option isn't going to present itself. Back after '97, they had the potential of an MLS stadium someday coming to the area. It's been talked about for the past 5-6 years as it became a reality that such a stadium could be nova's answer to the FBS problem and how to move up. If that's rejected this time, as it seemingly is, then that's it for FBS dreams.

As for Talley and Laycock, remember, Talley's got 5 years on Laycock. Tubby Raymond retired when he was 75 - if Talley went at the same age, that would be 2018. Like I said, Talley's unlikely to last out the decade no matter which way nova goes. But what's also changed is the money involved. Everything costs more today. nova tuition in 1997 was around $20k - now it's around $55k. And the endowment and other giving hasn't really come around like they wanted it to. And big time basketball isn't the moneymaker that football is. With no Talley to guide the ship, and with no FBS dream on the horizon, and with costs escalating all around, it won't be too long after Talley's gone that the white elephant in the room hemorraging $3M a year with little support gets looked at more closely. You don't need to be a UD fan to see the tenuous spot nova football would be in.

[bluehenbillk]

Villanova flirted with BE football membership in 1996 and obviously it didn't happen at that time and the program wasn't folded as a result. To my knowledge, there was no strong push for BE membership between 1996 and six months ago when this issue resurfaced. Not arguing the VU struggles mightily with attendance and overall support or that the program is a financial drain. The recent national level success only brought a small uptick in support, so if a NC can't do it, obviously nothing will improve VU attendance at the FCS level.

I just don't see why some UD fans gleefully predict this decision will bring about the iminent demise of the program. Talley, like Laycock, isn't going anywhere and shows no sign of wanting to retire anytime soon. The same diehard fans will be back next year. The b-ball program will subsidize the football loses next year like it has for the last 20 years, since the program was revivied. Nothing has fundamentally changed. I don't beleve for a second that VU football has been kept alive since 1996 on the long shot that BE football membership would become reality. If BE memebership was really the goal of the program they would have been actively pursuing facility improvements and an acceptable stadium long before the present.

Nope, see the UD vs VU lovefest comtinuing for several years to come.

UD fans may dislike VU, you're correct, but I don't think (m)any UD fans want to see the VU/UD series end. When I grew up in the 70's & early 80's Temple was our biggest rival. That series died away in the 80's & since the mid to late 90's it's been all about 'Nova. I'd love to see the series continue but I doubt it will. If somehow VU moves up the series won't continue b/c VU will not be able to pay any sizable guarantees out. My sense, and I'm not alone, is that VU football has been on financial life support for some time, which is half the reason for the FBS move, and if they c*&%tease their small fanbase with a FBS move & then it doesn't happen the program could go the way of N'Eastern & Hoffy. I'd rather that not happen, but heck that's the midset of some VU fans on their board right now - they really don't care about FCS football & they've already dropped D-1 football before, what makes people think they won't do it again???

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the Big East made it a point a decade ago that they didn't want to have stadiums that had same day complications. Since Penn would get first dibs, they would need to wait until Penn and the Ivy League set their schedules before the Big East could finalize theirs, and that complicates TV deals (deals which I'm sure don't allow for such inflexibilities).

As for upgrading Franklin Field, have you been there lately? "Some upgrades", to get it to the point that you can have 30k-40k people consistently, aren't going to come cheap. The stadium is about 90 years old now (at least the bottom level, and the top level not far behind) - nothing would be cheap there.

Penn's schedule is already set for 2011 (obviously)... and 2012, and probably even beyond that. It's fairly easy to extrapolate future schedules from there. The Ivy League schedule is set our further in advance than any other FCS conference, and most FBS conferences.

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/content.php?460-Ivy-League-2012-Football-Schedule

[GannonFan]

Penn's schedule is already set for 2011 (obviously)... and 2012, and probably even beyond that. It's fairly easy to extrapolate future schedules from there. The Ivy League schedule is set our further in advance than any other FCS conference, and most FBS conferences.

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/content.php?460-Ivy-League-2012-Football-Schedule

But not for times. Heck, even UD's 2011 schedule still shows tentative, let alone beyond. It's not as rock solid as you'd like to think it is (and not even close to what TV people want it to be).

[VUCats02]

Thursday afternoon (leading into Thursday night) in Philly at the start of a long Labor Day weekend at the very start of school during good weather will always result in getting lots of students and a good turnout. However, I'm not sure how that translates into getting a good turnout in crappy weather in the middle of November at the end of the semester to see a middling football team playing out the string against say a similar Cincinnati team. Oh, and in Chester to boot. And remember, nova didn't have a single sellout (and not even anything over 20k) and only averaged just over 16k to see a top 10 ranked nova basketball team this year at the Wells Fargo Center while playing top 20 and top 10 teams like Louisville, 'Cuse, Gtown, WVa, Maryland, and others. So in a college basketball town, in nova's best and most prominent sport, playing a great schedule and being nationally ranked, and highly, they could only fill 3/4 of the Wells Fargo Center. But somehow, in a pro football town, playing a middling to sometimes mediocre (OOC games that will likely be MEAC schools ala what Rutgers has done) home schedule, being a team that will probably never crack the top 25 and playing few if any teams in the top 25, while playing in a soccer stadium in Chester will exceed what nova does for basketball? And you wonder why the Big East actually stepped back from the brink and reassessed what they were doing?

And as for sticking around, hey, congrats to nova, they've won 5 straight against the Hens - way to go. The Hens won 3 straight against nova before that began. Funny, how a series as fairly even as this one is that teams go on streaks. It happens. The Hens still went to 2 national title games during that streak (nova of course, went to and won once) so it's not really hindering us too badly. But tell me why nova would still have football if they don't move up. I gave you my reasons - why are those reasons false? Why would nova hang around if the option to move up was forever removed as a possibility? I don't know if the '02 in your moniker is your graduating year, but if it is, you obviously don't remember the climate that was there in 1980 when they dropped it before. Plenty of similiarities between then and now.


By top ten program in basketball this year, do you mean the same team that barely made the NCAA tournament in the easiest year ever to make the field? I realize they were "ranked" in the top ten throughout some of the year in the coaches poll - but Nova fans aren't dumb - That was not a top 30 team all year. Also, Nova played much more diluted teams at the WFC this year which really hurt the average attendance. Playing Delaware in late December at the WFC doesn't help the average whatsoever. I don't have numbers on me, but the Cuse game had over 19 K, and the Maryland, Georgetown, and WVU games all had over 18K. For the Louisville game, the septa train from Nova did not MAKE it to Philly. It got stuck and had to turn around causing at least a couple thousand people to miss the game. I would say about 75-80% of the students (plus other non students) relied on that to get to the game.

The '02 is not my graduating year - I'm much younger so yes, I obviously do not remember the climate in 1980 as I was not alive during the time. Maybe Nova will follow suit with that - but even still, my gut feeling tells me Nova makes the jump to the Big East May 31. If not, I am just hoping they don't cut the program as I really do enjoy FCS football.

[VUCats02]

I think most of the problems with Villanova's attendance are, to be charitable, institutional in nature. Football has consistently been treated like the red-headed stepchild. They get next to no support from the administration. They make little to no effort to cultivate any sort of interest in the team.

To take a tiny example, I submit to you the Lehigh/Villanova game last year.

As a Lehigh fan, I thought that the Wildcats, coming off their national championship season, would see a bump in attendance. You'd think some students would make a CAR TRIP to Lehigh for an AFTERNOON game to watch their defending national champions. They'd have been home in time to be on South Street by 9:00 PM. But you'd be wrong.

Why? Well, Villanova chose to hold their annual Volunteer Day on the same weekend at the same time that the Lehigh game was played. This all but guaranteed a low turnout to follow the team. I realize it's a road game, but c'mon. This is no way to support a team that has designs on Big East membership.

Questions abound from this. Couldn't Volunteer Day be on a Friday? Couldn't buses be commissioned to bring fans and students to the Lehigh game? Couldn't any sort of liasion be nurtured or supported between the students and the football team?

It's striking that James Madison, Richmond, Eastern Washington can get a bump in interest in their programs - some of them quite large - after a national championship, but Villanova had nothing resembling it. The blame I put on that is squarely on the administration. I'm not saying they should have been selling out every game, but there's simple, cheap things they could have done to raise the excitement level for the student body.

I am not a fan of blaming the students for lack of attendance and engaging in the circular logic that "they just don't go to the games". It is my feeling that enthusiastic students frequently hit brick walls set up from the administration more often than a student body is "apathetic". Trust me as a Lehigh fan who has seen student attendance at Lehigh games decrease steadily as more draconian tailgate rules are set up year after year.

You bring up some good points. Nova would have NEVER scheduled the day of service on a Saturday where Nova had a nearby road basketball game. But you can't deny the fact that Nova students will skip class on a Thursday to go to the linc to watch Nova vs. Temple, but will not get out of bed on a Saturday at noon and walk 50 yards to go see Nova play Richmond. If Nova students will not get out of bed to go watch Richmond 50 yards away from their beds, good luck getting them to go to Lehigh. I wish the culture was different but it's not and just gotta accept it.

When Nova played W&M two years ago at home (before Nova won the NC), it was the first ever nationally televised CAA game - and the campus hyped up the game incredibly. They have never hyped up a game more than that one...not even close. The result - a packed house of both students and alum showing up.

The administration really sucks at advertising Nova football. On a Friday before gameday, 90% of the students do not know Nova has a home game tomorrow, and if they do know, they don't know who Nova is playing and they don't know what time the game is.

For basketball, the administration could not advertise basketball any better. It's unbelievable how differently the two sports are advertised.

Admin even advertised the hell out of the Nova vs. Syracuse LAX game a couple weekends ago, and there were 8000 people at the game with many students present.

[HailSzczur]

The difference between going to the linc and seeing VU Temple vs going to Chester to see VU Pitt/Uconn/USF is that Nova has a shot to beat Temple, and in some cases is almost favored. In my years of watching the basketball team Ive seen many an empty game at the Pavillion during the Steve Lapas years of the late 90's. It wasnt until Jay Wright came that basketball grew back to what it is today from the Rollie Massimino days. A fair showing of students went to the Linc this year because they wanted to see the team win. That same showing of students isnt going to go to Chester to see us get steam rolled by the BE

[WMTribe90]

Actually it was 1997 when they flirted - same time as UConn.

But there's plenty different this time around. If they don't move up this time, it's likely to be final. There was no final nail in the coffin last time, just nova passing on the opportunity. This time if they don't go, it'll be because the Big East didn't let them (by most accounts they have enough internal support, split as they may be, to say yes if an invite becomes formal). Having your own conference for everything else tell you that you can't move up is pretty final. As has been recounted here over and over, a stadium option isn't going to present itself. Back after '97, they had the potential of an MLS stadium someday coming to the area. It's been talked about for the past 5-6 years as it became a reality that such a stadium could be nova's answer to the FBS problem and how to move up. If that's rejected this time, as it seemingly is, then that's it for FBS dreams.

As for Talley and Laycock, remember, Talley's got 5 years on Laycock. Tubby Raymond retired when he was 75 - if Talley went at the same age, that would be 2018. Like I said, Talley's unlikely to last out the decade no matter which way nova goes. But what's also changed is the money involved. Everything costs more today. nova tuition in 1997 was around $20k - now it's around $55k. And the endowment and other giving hasn't really come around like they wanted it to. And big time basketball isn't the moneymaker that football is. With no Talley to guide the ship, and with no FBS dream on the horizon, and with costs escalating all around, it won't be too long after Talley's gone that the white elephant in the room hemorraging $3M a year with little support gets looked at more closely. You don't need to be a UD fan to see the tenuous spot nova football would be in.


Nothing in the BE's rejection speaks to finality. There is one, very specific, issue they need to address. Of course, the stadium is a huge deal, but in the long term it is technically surmountable. If, as you theorize, the dream of BCS membership is truly what is needed to keep Villlanova football afloat as an FCS program (i still don't buy that line of thought), then the possibility of securing or building a suitbale stadium in the long run (5-10 yrs) would suffice to kep the program afloat. There's nothing in this rejection that says VU will never be admitted to the BE for football. Sure, it's a long shot, but no more of a long shot then it's been for the past 20 years of VU football's existence. Again,this is just a return to the status quo.

Talley seems very healthy for his age and has offered no indication he is looking to retire anytime soon. Unless you have some evidence to back this claim, other than his age, I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion he's heading for the exit. People were probably saying the same thing about JoePa 20 years ago.

Fairly safe bet that there will be a VU football program five years from now. Beyond that, who knows, a lot can change in five years. I just didn't see the justification for the claim that VU football would fold in the short term as a direct result of the BE's rejection.

[GannonFan]

By top ten program in basketball this year, do you mean the same team that barely made the NCAA tournament in the easiest year ever to make the field? I realize they were "ranked" in the top ten throughout some of the year in the coaches poll - but Nova fans aren't dumb - That was not a top 30 team all year. Also, Nova played much more diluted teams at the WFC this year which really hurt the average attendance. Playing Delaware in late December at the WFC doesn't help the average whatsoever. I don't have numbers on me, but the Cuse game had over 19 K, and the Maryland, Georgetown, and WVU games all had over 18K. For the Louisville game, the septa train from Nova did not MAKE it to Philly. It got stuck and had to turn around causing at least a couple thousand people to miss the game. I would say about 75-80% of the students (plus other non students) relied on that to get to the game.

The '02 is not my graduating year - I'm much younger so yes, I obviously do not remember the climate in 1980 as I was not alive during the time. Maybe Nova will follow suit with that - but even still, my gut feeling tells me Nova makes the jump to the Big East May 31. If not, I am just hoping they don't cut the program as I really do enjoy FCS football.

Come on, give me some credit, I didn't include the UD game at the Wells Fargo Center in my numbers - I was only counting the real games. From nova's website it was:

Louisville - 13199
Maryland - 17477
Gtown - 19914
West Virginia - 16106
'Cuse - 18899
St John's - 16042

Every game but the Maryland one was against an opponent in the top 20 when they played - that's an average of 16.9k for the real games. And it's hard to have a much "sexier" schedule than that one so I'm not sure how the schedule was "diluted" with those teams.

And as much as you like to say that "everyone" knew the team wasn't a top 30 team all year, that's easy to say in hindsight - nova was 17-2 at one point with wins over UCLA, Temple, Louisville, Maryland, and on the road at Syracuse. I don't recall many people saying after that Syracuse win (this was near the end of January) that nova would barely make the tournament.

But it's interesting. You say that attendance was down because nova fans could tell that the team wasn't all that good so they didn't show up for the games. But how then, if nova fans aren't going to show up and follow teams that aren't nationally competitive, do you then turn around and say that attendance won't be a problem, even at PPL in Chester. What is a 3-7 nova team playing out the string with a Thanksgiving weekend game against Cincy or USF going to draw?

[GannonFan]

Nothing in the BE's rejection speaks to finality. There is one, very specific, issue they need to address. Of course, the stadium is a huge deal, but in the long term it is technically surmountable. If, as you theorize, the dream of BCS membership is truly what is needed to keep Villlanova football afloat as an FCS program (i still don't buy that line of thought), then the possibility of securing or building a suitbale stadium in the long run (5-10 yrs) would suffice to kep the program afloat. There's nothing in this rejection that says VU will never be admitted to the BE for football. Sure, it's a long shot, but no more of a long shot then it's been for the past 20 years of VU football's existence. Again,this is just a return to the status quo.

Talley seems very healthy for his age and has offered no indication he is looking to retire anytime soon. Unless you have some evidence to back this claim, other than his age, I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion he's heading for the exit. People were probably saying the same thing about JoePa 20 years ago.

Fairly safe bet that there will be a VU football program five years from now. Beyond that, who knows, a lot can change in five years. I just didn't see the justification for the claim that VU football would fold in the short term as a direct result of the BE's rejection.

I'm not sure how you can say that, in the long term, the stadium issue is "technically surmountable". By that criteria, monkey's growing wings and flying is "technially surmountable". Doesn't really speak to the likliehood of such a scenario, but it's out there I suppose.

As for Talley, I'm not sure how saying a guy, when he's around 75, might retire, is a stretch. The list of coaches who recently have gone past their 75th b-day and kept coaching is exceedingly short, and both of those guys have either been pushed to actually leave (Bowden) or pushed to the edge (Paterno), and neither were really gameday-involved coaches like Talley is. But again, I'm not sure why pointing out that it's by a large margin the exception of guy's coaching past their 75th b-day (heck, coaching past 70 is rare these days) is too far of a stretch for you. Either way, I didn't say nova football was going to fold in the next five years (that's you inserting that timeframe) -I just said I don't think it'll see the next decade.

[carney2]

I've read every post in this thread and followed this whole issue through the winter. I have one question:

The 'nova Board of Trustees was, by all accounts ready to pull that "YES" trigger until the Big Least forced a delay. Is the BoT

A. Misinformed?
B. Delusional?
C. On drugs?
D. Just out and out mishuganah?

[bluehenbillk]

I've read every post in this thread and followed this whole issue through the winter. I have one question:

The 'nova Board of Trustees was, by all accounts ready to pull that "YES" trigger until the Big Least forced a delay. Is the BoT

A. Misinformed?
B. Delusional?
C. On drugs?
D. Just out and out mishuganah?

Well.....their priests (Fr. Lazor you know who you are RIP) liked to go on drinking benders so I would go with E. - All of the above. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've read every post in this thread and followed this whole issue through the winter. I have one question:

The 'nova Board of Trustees was, by all accounts ready to pull that "YES" trigger until the Big Least forced a delay. Is the BoT

A. Misinformed?
B. Delusional?
C. On drugs?
D. Just out and out mishuganah?

It has to be A). Why? Nine months ago, anyone who could navigate to ESPN's webpage on the world-wide-internets knew that the Big East was interested in Villanova as a football-playing member. Now - if you believe the reports, which I have a hard time believing - the Big East has suddenly put the brakes on the whole process after "discovering" the stadium issue, an issue that has been present in Philadelphia since the Veterans Stadium era. Additionally, the stadium issue was the first, middle, and last issue discussed here on AGS in terms of Big East membership, so any fool can figure out that the stadium issue is a challenge that needs to be overcome.

What's clear to me is something else is afoot here. What I'm not sure is what that is. It could be that Rutgers and Pitt were ready to bolt the league if Villanova joined up in football, but I don't buy that explanation - it makes no sense, mostly because the other alternatives for Rutgers and Pitt in a BE football conference are just so bad. (Memphis? UCF? Eastern Carolina? Those are better solutions than Villanova playing BE football? Really?)

The only possible explanation that makes about half-sense is that the basketball schools pulled the plug on the deal in order to prevent the BE football schools breaking off and forming their own conferene. I'm still trying to figure out how that could be a real possibility, though.

[WMTribe90]

First of all, can you build something that big for that money? PPL was an 18k seat stadium built for $130M, several years ago. JMU's putting another 10k seats in for $60M. And then you get to the other obstacle of where you'd even put a 30k seat stadium in Conshohocken and who'd give you the permit to build that. If nova had that option of a place to build a stadium then they would've moved a long time ago. There is no miracle land in Delaware or Montgomery Counties to build a stadium and there won't be one. That's always been the odd thing about this - the stadium issue was always there and there was never an answer for it. The Linc? Never, the Eagles don't even want Temple there. PPL? Seats under 20k and good luck finding the money and willingness to expand it to 30K, and even then, it's still in Chester. Franklin Field? Where to park, how to upgrade a place that's falling down, and really, you need to wait until the Ivy League sets their schedule?

This is almost the deathknell of nova football - they couldn't get people to go to games before, how are they going to get people to go now after teasing Big East membership and then pulling it away? Looks like 1981 all over again.


Deathknell sounds pretty immediate to me. On one hand your saying the BE's decision will directly bring an end to VU football, but in the next breath claim the end could come as much as eight years from now. Either this is a mortal blow or it isn't. If someone told you they were dying and in their next breath told you they only had eight years to live, you'd probably question the credibility of their prognosis or the seriousness of their condition.

Bowden was and JoePa was almost forced out for losing games at a BCS program. Talley could go .500 for the next 10 years and the admin would stand behind him. That's why JL and Talley stick-around, job security and quality of life. Plenty of coaches in their 70's in DII and DIII for the same reasons. Talley will decide when he retires and he's shown no indication he's slowing down.

[VUCats02]

Come on, give me some credit, I didn't include the UD game at the Wells Fargo Center in my numbers - I was only counting the real games. From nova's website it was:

Louisville - 13199
Maryland - 17477
Gtown - 19914
West Virginia - 16106
'Cuse - 18899
St John's - 16042

Every game but the Maryland one was against an opponent in the top 20 when they played - that's an average of 16.9k for the real games. And it's hard to have a much "sexier" schedule than that one so I'm not sure how the schedule was "diluted" with those teams.

And as much as you like to say that "everyone" knew the team wasn't a top 30 team all year, that's easy to say in hindsight - nova was 17-2 at one point with wins over UCLA, Temple, Louisville, Maryland, and on the road at Syracuse. I don't recall many people saying after that Syracuse win (this was near the end of January) that nova would barely make the tournament.

But it's interesting. You say that attendance was down because nova fans could tell that the team wasn't all that good so they didn't show up for the games. But how then, if nova fans aren't going to show up and follow teams that aren't nationally competitive, do you then turn around and say that attendance won't be a problem, even at PPL in Chester. What is a 3-7 nova team playing out the string with a Thanksgiving weekend game against Cincy or USF going to draw?

Did I specifically relate attendance to the fact that Nova fans knew we weren't a top 10 program all year? The only reason I brought it up again was that I laughed out loud when you called us a top ten team this year.

I do agree that a 3-7 Nova team would get awful attendance for a Cincy game, but any team could go 3-7 in the big east and have bad attendance for a Cincy-type game.

Nobody said Nova would barely make the tournament after the Syracuse win, but you can still be a non top 25 program and still feel pretty safe about making the big dance. Especially in the worst ever college basketball year ever.

I don't see what's wrong with playing in a 20-30 K stadium - even in the Big East. As far as perception, as long as a stadium is packed, it looks good. Realistically, Nova will not average more than 25K per game - but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Especially playing in a place like PPL park. I think it actually fits Nova's situation better than most do. It would be ideal if it was 10 miles closer, but it is what it is.

[VUCats02]

The difference between going to the linc and seeing VU Temple vs going to Chester to see VU Pitt/Uconn/USF is that Nova has a shot to beat Temple, and in some cases is almost favored. In my years of watching the basketball team Ive seen many an empty game at the Pavillion during the Steve Lapas years of the late 90's. It wasnt until Jay Wright came that basketball grew back to what it is today from the Rollie Massimino days. A fair showing of students went to the Linc this year because they wanted to see the team win. That same showing of students isnt going to go to Chester to see us get steam rolled by the BE

Nova would have a shot to beat anybody in the Big East once they got rolling. They had a shot to beat anybody in the Big East these last 2 years as did many CAA and Southern conference teams.

[Tribe4SF]

It has to be A). Why? Nine months ago, anyone who could navigate to ESPN's webpage on the world-wide-internets knew that the Big East was interested in Villanova as a football-playing member. Now - if you believe the reports, which I have a hard time believing - the Big East has suddenly put the brakes on the whole process after "discovering" the stadium issue, an issue that has been present in Philadelphia since the Veterans Stadium era. Additionally, the stadium issue was the first, middle, and last issue discussed here on AGS in terms of Big East membership, so any fool can figure out that the stadium issue is a challenge that needs to be overcome.



This is not that tough to figure out. The BE made an offer of possible football membership to Nova, including an idea of the kind of financial support they might provide if Nova wanted to make the move. The response required of Nova was a plan of how they would accomplish the transition. What they've come up with at this point is obviously unacceptable to a majority of the football members. It is up to Nova to solve their stadium problem, and clearly they have not done that to the BE members satisfaction. The talk of conspiracy theories is just silly. It was a business offer, and the offering party always expects something in return, namely that you'll be a functioning partner. If you don't understand what the offering party expects, or can't fulfill those expectations, then it usually doesn't work out.

[sebie]

i dont get why nova doesnt use citizens bank park. Sure it would be kind of awkward but theres plenty of games and even fbs bowl games played at baseball stadiums. Plus it would get them the capacity that they need while keeping it downtown in a sporting complex instead of putting the games away in the burbs.

[Go...gate]

Deathknell sounds pretty immediate to me. On one hand your saying the BE's decision will directly bring an end to VU football, but in the next breath claim the end could come as much as eight years from now. Either this is a mortal blow or it isn't. If someone told you they were dying and in their next breath told you they only had eight years to live, you'd probably question the credibility of their prognosis or the seriousness of their condition.

Bowden was and JoePa was almost forced out for losing games at a BCS program. Talley could go .500 for the next 10 years and the admin would stand behind him. That's why JL and Talley stick-around, job security and quality of life. Plenty of coaches in their 70's in DII and DIII for the same reasons. Talley will decide when he retires and he's shown no indication he's slowing down.

Kind of like Dick Biddle at Colgate.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is not that tough to figure out. The BE made an offer of possible football membership to Nova, including an idea of the kind of financial support they might provide if Nova wanted to make the move. The response required of Nova was a plan of how they would accomplish the transition. What they've come up with at this point is obviously unacceptable to a majority of the football members. It is up to Nova to solve their stadium problem, and clearly they have not done that to the BE members satisfaction. The talk of conspiracy theories is just silly. It was a business offer, and the offering party always expects something in return, namely that you'll be a functioning partner. If you don't understand what the offering party expects, or can't fulfill those expectations, then it usually doesn't work out.

You're missing the point. If the BE was expecting more than a PPL park solution, they either they are either dumb as rocks or were simply stringing Villanova along the football issue. I can't accept either explanation. It is extremely obvious within minutes of looking at the situation that Villanova cannot buy a 50,000 seat stadium on-campus in Radnor Township, and evicting Temple will not happen from the Linc. Furthermore, I can't believe they would force Villanova to spend a year of time and energy to study this (after, mind, they had already done so a decade or so ago) with, in essence, a preordained conclusion that it wasn't going to happen.

This wasn't just floating the idea in the papers and in blogs. This was a full-out, get the BOT involved, full bore study on feasibility, with more than a year of not only looking at the situation but lining up fundraisers, coming up with plans, shaking their hands on deals. If it was all a BE joke, it certainly was an awful cruel one.

[Green26]

You're missing the point. If the BE was expecting more than a PPL park solution, they either they are either dumb as rocks or were simply stringing Villanova along the football issue. I can't accept either explanation. It is extremely obvious within minutes of looking at the situation that Villanova cannot buy a 50,000 seat stadium on-campus in Radnor Township, and evicting Temple will not happen from the Linc. Furthermore, I can't believe they would force Villanova to spend a year of time and energy to study this (after, mind, they had already done so a decade or so ago) with, in essence, a preordained conclusion that it wasn't going to happen.

This wasn't just floating the idea in the papers and in blogs. This was a full-out, get the BOT involved, full bore study on feasibility, with more than a year of not only looking at the situation but lining up fundraisers, coming up with plans, shaking their hands on deals. If it was all a BE joke, it certainly was an awful cruel one.


No one forced VU to do anything or do any feasibility study. Vu decided to do this. It looks to me that VU was talking to the BE commissioner and not acting after decisions/votes by the full BE membership. Perhaps VU ought to be more careful. Perhaps VU wasn't listening. Perhaps VU ought to get better assurance earlier. Perhaps this is a minor blip and it will work out for VU.

It should be obvious to everyone that things are changing and very fluid in conference realignments, especially in the last several years. Conferences and commissioners are talking to multiple schools and thinking many different scenarios, and things can and do change. An offer than seems to be forthcoming this week or this month, may not be available next week or next month. Perhaps the BE is working to keep Pitt happy, and cutting on VU is one thing it has to do to try to keep Pitt in the fold.

[bluehenbillk]

i dont get why nova doesnt use citizens bank park. Sure it would be kind of awkward but theres plenty of games and even fbs bowl games played at baseball stadiums. Plus it would get them the capacity that they need while keeping it downtown in a sporting complex instead of putting the games away in the burbs.

CBP could be a posssibility - but only for Novemeber games - the Phillies aren't going to let anyone in there until their season is over. Outside of the Marlins/Miami Hurricanes I can't think of another example & there is a weather difference between S Florida & the Northeast.

BTW - regarding why people ask VU could drop football if they don't move to FBS, the number that VU fans throw around for the financial loss they took in '09 when they won the NC was $4M in the hole....

[carney2]

You're missing the point. If the BE was expecting more than a PPL park solution, they either they are either dumb as rocks or were simply stringing Villanova along the football issue. I can't accept either explanation. It is extremely obvious within minutes of looking at the situation that Villanova cannot buy a 50,000 seat stadium on-campus in Radnor Township, and evicting Temple will not happen from the Linc. Furthermore, I can't believe they would force Villanova to spend a year of time and energy to study this (after, mind, they had already done so a decade or so ago) with, in essence, a preordained conclusion that it wasn't going to happen.

This wasn't just floating the idea in the papers and in blogs. This was a full-out, get the BOT involved, full bore study on feasibility, with more than a year of not only looking at the situation but lining up fundraisers, coming up with plans, shaking their hands on deals. If it was all a BE joke, it certainly was an awful cruel one.

There ya go, LFN, doing your Ollie Stone impersonation again. You concoct more conspiracy theories than Bayer has aspirin tablets. Best bet scenario: the Big Least said "We'd love to have you. You're already a member and all sports participation beats the squiggle out of anything else we can find." All parties knew that the venue issue was there, sitting on the table. Frankly, ya gotta believe that the Big Least thought/hoped that 'nova would come up with something better than PPL. They didn't know how and were not involved, but they were kind of thinking that 'nova could work out a deal with daIggles/Temple to do something with the Linc or with Penn for Franklin Field. Something. Anything but this. Fer gawd's sake, football stadiums sit empty all but a few days per year. There are at least 3 possibilities each weekend: Fri. night, Sat. afternoon, Sat night, and that doesn't include the plethora of weeknight games. My bet is that the Big Least just feels that 'nova coulda/shoulda done better.

[ccd494]

As someone who likes the MLS a whole lot more than FCS/FBS football, I am pretty overjoyed that the Big East is seemingly rejecting PPL as a facility for Nova. Football destroys the grass, and 30,000 seats is too big. People denigrate the MLS as not having a fan base, or being second tier, but the majority of teams are averaging in the upper teens, attendance wise, and that's just fine. The MLS doesn't need to be the NFL, attendance may peak just below the NBA/NHL/MLB, and what's wrong with that? The Union doesn't need to sell itself out to Villanova to survive in Philly. Expanding to 30,000 too soon would just create another New England situation- and the Revolution are the laughingstock of the league in Gillette Stadium. Atmosphere is important, if your stadium looks cavernous and dead, that will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. MAYBE if Philly didn't have a stadium that could host internationals, 30,000 would be excusable, but the Linc drew 55,000 for USA-Turkey last year.

Secondly, I realize that Nova needs a little bit more seating than this but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_Field The Vancouver Whitecaps and BC Lions built Empire Field in 3 months. It seats 27,500. It is going to be torn down when renovations to BC Place are finished. Cost? C$14.4M. It doesn't solve the land issues, but that's dirt cheap and would do the job at least to see if the interest is there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There ya go, LFN, doing your Ollie Stone impersonation again. You concoct more conspiracy theories than Bayer has aspirin tablets. Best bet scenario: the Big Least said "We'd love to have you. You're already a member and all sports participation beats the squiggle out of anything else we can find." All parties knew that the venue issue was there, sitting on the table. Frankly, ya gotta believe that the Big Least thought/hoped that 'nova would come up with something better than PPL. They didn't know how and were not involved, but they were kind of thinking that 'nova could work out a deal with daIggles/Temple to do something with the Linc or with Penn for Franklin Field. Something. Anything but this. Fer gawd's sake, football stadiums sit empty all but a few days per year. There are at least 3 possibilities each weekend: Fri. night, Sat. afternoon, Sat night, and that doesn't include the plethora of weeknight games. My bet is that the Big Least just feels that 'nova coulda/shoulda done better.

Chalk you, up, then, for the "Big East is as dumb as a rock" side. They thought they could make a deal with Temple? Really?

But seriously, couldn't the Big East couldn't have saved everyone a lot of time, money and ego and said from the get-go, "It has to have capacity for at least 40,000 fans or Pitt won't go for it?" At some level, either the Big East is interested and would at a bare minmum nudge them in the right direction, or they're not interested.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the "cruel joke" side. That will be in my blog posting later today.

[bluehenbillk]

There ya go, LFN, doing your Ollie Stone impersonation again. You concoct more conspiracy theories than Bayer has aspirin tablets. Best bet scenario: the Big Least said "We'd love to have you. You're already a member and all sports participation beats the squiggle out of anything else we can find." All parties knew that the venue issue was there, sitting on the table. Frankly, ya gotta believe that the Big Least thought/hoped that 'nova would come up with something better than PPL. They didn't know how and were not involved, but they were kind of thinking that 'nova could work out a deal with daIggles/Temple to do something with the Linc or with Penn for Franklin Field. Something. Anything but this. Fer gawd's sake, football stadiums sit empty all but a few days per year. There are at least 3 possibilities each weekend: Fri. night, Sat. afternoon, Sat night, and that doesn't include the plethora of weeknight games. My bet is that the Big Least just feels that 'nova coulda/shoulda done better.

You can forget about VU playing at the Linc. The Eagles aren't thrilled about Temple playing there in the first place but it was written into the deal for the Eagles to get city & state funds to help build the Linc in the first place. The deal runs through 2017 but everyone knows that it's a slam dunk to continue past that point. Have you seen what the Linc or what Heinz Field's playing surfaces look like come T-Giving? Not that great. Wish I had a picture of both places on Opening Day as a before shot & a end November/begin December shot as the after shot. It's all a big circle that leads to the same place - where could VU play FBS football? Answer that & it's wecome to the Big East, but nobody has had an answer for that for a long time......

[Tribe4SF]

Chalk you, up, then, for the "Big East is as dumb as a rock" side. They thought they could make a deal with Temple? Really?

But seriously, couldn't the Big East couldn't have saved everyone a lot of time, money and ego and said from the get-go, "It has to have capacity for at least 40,000 fans or Pitt won't go for it?" At some level, either the Big East is interested and would at a bare minmum nudge them in the right direction, or they're not interested.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the "cruel joke" side. That will be in my blog posting later today.

Blog away, Ollie. The simple fact remains that it was up to Nova to work with the offer from the BE. Implying that the BE should have done more is what misses the only relevant point....namely that the ball was, and is, in Nova's corner. If they can't show a plan that satisfies the BE members then there ain't no deal. As far as current conspiracy theories are concerned, anyone who thinks Pitt is afraid to recruit against Nova needs to sit and take a breath.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Blog away, Ollie. The simple fact remains that it was up to Nova to work with the offer from the BE. Implying that the BE should have done more is what misses the only relevant point....namely that the ball was, and is, in Nova's corner. If they can't show a plan that satisfies the BE members then there ain't no deal. As far as current conspiracy theories are concerned, anyone who thinks Pitt is afraid to recruit against Nova needs to sit and take a breath.

Who in Gods Green' Earth said that? This has nothing to do with recruiting.

You say "If they can't show a plan that satisfies the BE members then there ain't no deal." This is easily demonstrable to be, at best, a moving target. And if the only plan the BE would accept is something that is/was impossible to attain, then - isn't the BE just playing a cruel joke on Villanova?

You say Villanova's plan was unacceptable. So, praytell, what would be acceptable? Oh yeah, two rules: you can't use the Linc and expanding Villanova stadium to accomodate 50,000 fans is a non-starter. I'll be eager to see your plan to satisfy the Big East with these two criteria.

Oh yeah. The Big East also reserves the right to suddenly have a conference call and say "oh by the way, you can't lease a stadium from an Ivy League school".

[RichH2]

Egos aside,, $$$ and sense seem to be the real issue. Doe BE have home & home guarantees ? If so, makes sense for Pitt to dislike Nova seatng. Of course Nova could pony up the difference for a Pitt home game compared to what they would get as visitor at Pitt. Not an attractive prospect.Guess it would be nice for BE to expand football teams within the conference. Another bad to mediocre FBS team to add to BE's sliding football reputation.

[Franks Tanks]

Egos aside,, $$$ and sense seem to be the real issue. Doe BE have home & home guarantees ? If so, makes sense for Pitt to dislike Nova seatng. Of course Nova could pony up the difference for a Pitt home game compared to what they would get as visitor at Pitt. Not an attractive prospect.Guess it would be nice for BE to expand football teams within the conference. Another bad to mediocre FBS team to add to BE's sliding football reputation.

I don't believe conference opponents ever pay each other. Big payouts are usually only given when a team plays away and doesn't get a return trip OOC. Conference members who play away at a conference mate will get a return game, and each team just keeps their home gate. There may be an arrangement to help with travel expenses, but since each team must travel to the same conference members in equal distribution travel expenses for conference teams should be the same in the long run.

[Tribe4SF]

Who in Gods Green' Earth said that? This has nothing to do with recruiting.

You say "If they can't show a plan that satisfies the BE members then there ain't no deal." This is easily demonstrable to be, at best, a moving target. And if the only plan the BE would accept is something that is/was impossible to attain, then - isn't the BE just playing a cruel joke on Villanova?

You say Villanova's plan was unacceptable. So, praytell, what would be acceptable? Oh yeah, two rules: you can't use the Linc and expanding Villanova stadium to accomodate 50,000 fans is a non-starter. I'll be eager to see your plan to satisfy the Big East with these two criteria.

Oh yeah. The Big East also reserves the right to suddenly have a conference call and say "oh by the way, you can't lease a stadium from an Ivy League school".

The recruiting theory has been put forth by several Nova fans.

You're just speculating about a moving target, and you still want to put the onus on everyone except Nova for clarification of what would be acceptable. They could have, and should have asked for clarifications as they drafted this key part of their plan. For all you know they communicated the possible PPL plan last week, and the BE conf. call was held to gauge reaction. The BE message from Sunday may have been timely, and constituted the first negative reply in a series of considerations. Trying to demonize the BE when you have no idea what the process has been is just cheap journalism.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-easts-cruel-joke-on-villanova.html

Tribe4SF, read my blog post. It's my opinion, and I don't think it's cheap journalism.

[Tribe4SF]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-easts-cruel-joke-on-villanova.html

Tribe4SF, read my blog post. It's my opinion, and I don't think it's cheap journalism.

Sorry, but that blog piece is so full of speculation, and the divining of people's mood, and intentions that it does qualify as cheap journalism. When you characterized Mariannato as having a "hissy fit", I had to stop.

[Bossanova]

Look for an announcement coming out this week regarding whether or not Nova is in the Big East for football.

That is all I know about the situation and I heard it from a third party.

[Anovafan]

The decision is going to be pushed at least until next spring/summer 2012. Nova will be a full FCS program this year and eligible for post-season play (not that it will matter with this year's rebuilding team).

[bluehenbillk]

The decision is going to be pushed at least until next spring/summer 2012. Nova will be a full FCS program this year and eligible for post-season play (not that it will matter with this year's rebuilding team).

Yea I'd have to agree with that, if a vote/invite ever does happen. After months of going's on & then the Big East saying, "no, not yet anyway", there's no way anything different is going to happen anytime soon. The stadium issue will still be the biggest roadblock.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The decision is going to be pushed at least until next spring/summer 2012. Nova will be a full FCS program this year and eligible for post-season play (not that it will matter with this year's rebuilding team).

Your leadership sounds like it's a shoo-in for the Patriot League. xlolx

[Anovafan]

It's the right move for now. Nova wasn't even close to being prepared to pull the trigger to implement a 3 year transition plan now. At least the next year will give them time to take the appropriate steps. I still believe the move to FBS will eventually happen, however their consistent delay/"no-decision yet" mentality may take the decision completely out of their hands at some point.

[Go...gate]

Your leadership sounds like it's a shoo-in for the Patriot League. xlolx

: )

[bluehenbillk]

If I'm right - this is really no longer a decision for 'Nova to make - it's more the Big East's call now as they've indefinitely suspended the invite......

[jstclmet]

fyi

May 2011

Dear Alumni, Parents and Friends:

I wanted to share some new information with you about the status of Villanova's potential transition to the Big East as a football member.

As I communicated last month, the Villanova Board of Trustees was poised to move forward with a decision at its April meeting when we learned that the Big East needed more time to conduct its due diligence. Since that time, we have been actively engaged with the Big East leadership on the football issue. In a recent letter received from Big East Commissioner John Marinatto, which he agreed that I could share, he stated the following:


Please know that the Big East Conference will continue to work closely with Villanova University as we pursue our ongoing goal of ensuring the Conference's long-term stability, strength and value through football expansion, which will require more time to finalize as we continue our evaluation of the evolving football and media landscapes. I appreciate the outstanding job Villanova has done in its FBS football evaluations over the last nine months and obviously Villanova University continues to be a strong member of the Conference and an attractive candidate for football membership. I am grateful for all the time, effort and energy that both you and Villanova have put into your thorough assessment and presentations, Father, and I appreciate and understand your concerns and personally pledge to continue to work diligently with you and your team as we move forward.

I am proud of Villanova and the way that our University undertook exploring this move to Big East football. We approached it seriously and with a process that was thoughtful, diligent, inclusive and research-based. I continue to be confident of the value Villanova brings to the Big East. Our teams have won 72 Big East Conference titles, and we lead the Big East with 19 NCAA Team Champions and 114 NCAA Individual Champions. Villanova has an undeniable history of academic and athletic excellence, which is nationally recognized.

I know that many of you may be frustrated with the Big East's timeline -- I share your feelings. However, we must remember that the true mandate for Villanova is the successful implementation of our University's Strategic Plan.

I've communicated to you my excitement and commitment to the bold vision for Villanova's future as outlined in our Strategic Plan, and I can guarantee you that there will be no delay in accomplishing our goals. The powerful momentum propelling the Strategic Plan forward is already visible. Here on campus, many initiatives are underway, including improvements to campus infrastructure, academic and curricular enhancements, and significant investments to further bolster our prestige with future students. In these areas, Villanova will determine its own destiny.

As information regarding the Big East becomes available, I will share it with you. Moving forward, I am committed to strengthening our impressive tradition and ensuring that it thrives to benefit Villanovans for generations to come. This will be our shared legacy.

Sincerely,



Fr. Peter Donohue, O.S.A.
President

[Tribe4SF]

"Thanks, but no thanks".

[Pard4Life]

Villanova is moving... if the BOT was in a majority no position, they would have stated it in April. Instead the Big East is taking another look at the deal and giving more time to Nova to acclimate.

[ngineer]

Delusions of grandeur...

[Go...gate]

Villanova is moving... if the BOT was in a majority no position, they would have stated it in April. Instead the Big East is taking another look at the deal and giving more time to Nova to acclimate.

I agree....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Big East: "We still want to be friends, trusty Joan, just in case things don't work out, but LeAnn is a lot hotter than you."

[Franks Tanks]

Villanova is moving... if the BOT was in a majority no position, they would have stated it in April. Instead the Big East is taking another look at the deal and giving more time to Nova to acclimate.

Absolutely-- They are moving unless the Big East gets cold feet over their stadium/attendance issues.

[GannonFan]

Absolutely-- They are moving unless the Big East gets cold feet over their stadium/attendance issues.

Yeah, this letter confirms what everyone already knows - the Big East commissioner is certainly in favor of nova moving up and nova is certainly willing to make the move to FBS. Now if they could just find a way to convince Pitt and West Virginia and Louisville and Rutgers that not having a stadium and needing inflows of money from them and others in order to make the move then they could actually get a real invite and move. Details.

[Pard4Life]

Absolutely-- They are moving unless the Big East gets cold feet over their stadium/attendance issues.

They should because the PPL Stadium plan is a travesty. Doubt many people will schlep to Chester on a cold, rainy November Thursday to see South Florida.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My position on this has always been that basketball is driving this. Folks seem to think a seventeen team basketball conference is hunky dory, but I sure don't. I think the BE is almost required to expand to get an 18th team and split into nine-team divisions in other sports.

I talk about it here:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-easts-cruel-joke-on-villanova.html

To me, commissioner Marinatto has three options. He can suffer through seventeen team basketball and have Nova do what it wants, which I don't think is feasible. He can expand with a football school, which diminishes the value of Nova football significantly because there is a lot more value in a 10th football team than an 11th. Or he could expand with Xavier and have Nova start football, putting the BE at 18/10.

I think the odds of Nova starting FB are still about 50/50, despite the challenges.

[GannonFan]

My position on this has always been that basketball is driving this. Folks seem to think a seventeen team basketball conference is hunky dory, but I sure don't. I think the BE is almost required to expand to get an 18th team and split into nine-team divisions in other sports.

I talk about it here:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-easts-cruel-joke-on-villanova.html

To me, commissioner Marinatto has three options. He can suffer through seventeen team basketball and have Nova do what it wants, which I don't think is feasible. He can expand with a football school, which diminishes the value of Nova football significantly because there is a lot more value in a 10th football team than an 11th. Or he could expand with Xavier and have Nova start football, putting the BE at 18/10.

I think the odds of Nova starting FB are still about 50/50, despite the challenges.

Your basketball angle has always been suspect. The Big East (among plenty of other conferences) has been playing with an uneven schedule (i.e. they don't play everyone the same amount of games) for years now with really only positive impact (measured by teams making the dance). They play games at any time or any day during the week so it's not like having a team finish their Big East year on a Thursday night while most finish on a Saturday afternoon or night is a big deal. They've proven over several years that they are perfectly capable of crafting schedules and being successful with a large and uneven scheduled league.

The thing is, it doesn't appear as if the Big East commissioner is really calling the shots here. If he was, nova would already be planning to play FBS football in 2014 as he clearly wants nova in the football conference. However, Pitt, Rutgers, Louisville, and West Virginia are clearly not in favor and they apparently have more sway at this point. IMO, when TCU was added it dropped all the urgency to get nova to move up. A 9 team football conference is perfect for an FBS conference - they play 12 games, and they get 8 conference games and 4 OOC games (same as the Big 10 plays, but by playing everyone in the conference, not the unbalanced schedule the Big 10 plays with). It's funny, because on one hand you say that an unbalanced basketball schedule would be impossible to work with (although they've done so for several years) but that a 10 team football conference with an unbalanced schedule would be fine. Adding nova now at this point doesn't add anything to the existing members - "pulling in the Philly market" is dubious from a TV contract perspective for obvious reasons and nova would just be a 10th team, still two teams short of what would be required for a conference title game. Adding in the fact that the Big East football schools would have to help nova financially just to make the move and there just doesn't appear to be a compelling reason for them to do so, despite what the Big East commissioner would like.

[Anovafan]

There is a lot up in the air with this one still to be decided. Central Florida and East Carolina are now in the mix and with Nova would give them the elusive 12 teams in football for a championship game. The BE wants a hard timeline for PPL to be expanded before they totally commit. Lord knows where the money for that will come from. Pitt and Rutgers need to be persuaded and really want to be in the Big 10. WVU is pretty neutral on this actually. 75% of the current BE members have to vote in favor of adding teams. It will be revisited in August and in November by the BE. Nova is fully on board now with making the commitment, problem is not everyone else is.

[Pard4Life]

Who owns PPL Park? The whole point of PPL is to be a small intimate stadium for MLS soccer specifically. The don't play in the Linc because the empty stadium detracts from atmosphere and fan attendance. Their model is working now, so there is no point for them to expand the stadium to let's say 35,000. That would destroy its entire purpose and they just built the thing. No room for temp seats either.

[Sly Fox]

As for the Big East, I am still hearing Houston & UCF are the frontrunners with Memphis & ECU just outside those two. Houston & Memphis have strong hoops traditions ... not so much for the other two.

As an outsider, it appears the 'Nova fans on here seem to be among the camp that is all in on the Big East. Interesting.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

"Villanova will determine its own destiny........ Moving forward, I am committed to strengthening our impressive tradition and ensuring that it thrives to benefit Villanovans for generations to come. This will be our shared legacy."

In other words screw the Big East, we don't need them. These comments give me the impression this move ain't happening.

[DFW HOYA]

The Big East will eventually go to a 12/20 setup, unless some schools seek other opportunities or are shown the door.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm a little surprised that one option about Big East expansion isn't being discussed more - adding a non-football school like, say, Xavier, and having Villanova upgrade to FBS, making it 18 basketball, 10 football schools. I would think the non-Big East-football-playing members like Georgetown and St. John's would be delighted with this, and it would also suit Villanova perfectly as well.

In the overall scheme of things, isn't adding Xavier a whole lot better than adding Memphis?

[DFW HOYA]

In the overall scheme of things, isn't adding Xavier a whole lot better than adding Memphis?

The Cincinnati media market is already covered. Also, the I-A schools have made it clear that schools below I-A aren't in the cards going forward--more like some three school combination of Houston, Central Florida, East Carolina, or Memphis, probably in that order.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Cincinnati media market is already covered. Also, the I-A schools have made it clear that schools below I-A aren't in the cards going forward--more like some three school combination of Houston, Central Florida, East Carolina, or Memphis, probably in that order.

I would switch ECU and Memphis, but point well taken. I would throw SMU and even Baylor in the mix as well. My list would probably be: SMU, Houston, Baylor, UCF, Memphis, and ECU in that order.

On a larger scheme, though, you wonder if the "football schools" (Cincy, Pitt) are against Nova's upgrade since it's a proxy battle for the real struggle between the non-football and football schools in the conference. Perhaps Cincy and Pitt are one one side, fearing Marinatto will expand with a non-FB school to make 18/10, and the non-FB schools are on the other, fearing if football expands by more to make 20/12 the football schools will split the conference in two. If this is indeed the case, you'd think Pitt and friends would do a 180 on Nova's FBS ambitions once, say, SMU and Houston are brought into the conference.

[DFW HOYA]

A school needs 75% of member schools (13 of 17) for expansion. No non-IA school holds that kind of voting bloc in the Big East.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

I’m wondering when the BE basketball schools will split off and join up with some in the A-10 to form a new conference.

[Sly Fox]

SMU? I mean really, SMU? I seriously doubt they would be interested or capable of moving into the Big East. They are very happy with their current low cost arrangement in the C-USA. And Baylor won't be going anywhere unless they are forced out. That's not likely to happen barring the total destruction of the Big XII.

Houston fits the Big East profile and brings the 10th largest media market in the country. UH hoops has been down for awhile primarily to their having to recruit in the C-USA vs. the Big XII & SEC. They could return quickly in the Big East.

Houston has to be the most attractive option as a travel partner to TCU and then UCF follows behind with either ECU or Memphis a significant step back.

[henfan]

I’m wondering when the BE basketball schools will split off and join up with some in the A-10 to form a new conference.

http://www.musicnotes.com/images/productimages/large/mtd/MN0015877.gif

[Lehigh Football Nation]

SMU? I mean really, SMU? I seriously doubt they would be interested or capable of moving into the Big East. They are very happy with their current low cost arrangement in the C-USA. And Baylor won't be going anywhere unless they are forced out. That's not likely to happen barring the total destruction of the Big XII.

Houston fits the Big East profile and brings the 10th largest media market in the country. UH hoops has been down for awhile primarily to their having to recruit in the C-USA vs. the Big XII & SEC. They could return quickly in the Big East.

Houston has to be the most attractive option as a travel partner to TCU and then UCF follows behind with either ECU or Memphis a significant step back.

TCU and SMU are huge rivals. They've played each other 90 times in football, only missing five years between starting football in 1915 (and two of those games were in SMU's "death penalty" years). Houston offers no such rivalry, but have had a better football team recently. To me, that makes SMU a better fit than you think.

Both SMU and Houston offer little, if anything, in basketball.

[TexasTerror]

Update...


The Villanova moving-up-to-the Big East for football situation, which was supposed to be resolved a month ago, remains officially on hold. No one seems to know exactly what's going to happen next, although well-placed sources on both sides seem to agree that nothing is likely to be resolved before June 1. That would mean the earliest the Wildcats could play football in the conference they call home for just about everything else would be 2015 instead of 2014, given the NCAA's mandatory 2-year transitionary period for going up a division to I-A (or Football Bowl Subdivision).

The next move belongs to the Big East. Villanova was ready to vote yes on April 12, and is still very much committed. The stadium capacity issue (Chester's PPL Park) is obviously the major stumbling block, at least on the surface. But the question also seems to be whether the football schools want to merely bring in a 10th team or expand to 12. Texas Christian was just added for all sports, starting in 2012. There's a sense that if the number only grows to 10, Villanova might not have the inside track over, say, Central Florida. Yet if it goes to a dozen, it's believed Villanova would become a much more viable option, given the size and appeal of the Philadelphia market. Houston and even East Carolina have been mentioned as possibilities. Then there's the dilemma of how this all impacts basketball, or whether football - where the real money and power lies - splits off on its own.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/villanova/20110512_Looks_like_2015_would_be_earliest_for_Vil lanova_football_in_Big_East.html#ixzz1MKODWgrn

[superman7515]

Wet Virginia AD Oliver Luck on Villanova (http://www.voodoofive.com/2011/4/22/2124827/big-east-expansion-oliver-luck-villanova-umass-contract-talk)


"There are two sort of questions I think that people have. One is really what are the facilities that Villanova is able to use and how do those fit into the Big East with what we have now with our football schools. Are those really at a level that are BCS, automatic qualifier appropriate for a conference like ours? I think that's the first question and obviously the conference didn't feel quite comfortable with all the information regarding what I would call the infrastructure question."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Update...

The next move belongs to the Big East. Villanova was ready to vote yes on April 12, and is still very much committed. The stadium capacity issue (Chester's PPL Park) is obviously the major stumbling block, at least on the surface. But the question also seems to be whether the football schools want to merely bring in a 10th team or expand to 12. Texas Christian was just added for all sports, starting in 2012. There's a sense that if the number only grows to 10, Villanova might not have the inside track over, say, Central Florida. Yet if it goes to a dozen, it's believed Villanova would become a much more viable option, given the size and appeal of the Philadelphia market. Houston and even East Carolina have been mentioned as possibilities. Then there's the dilemma of how this all impacts basketball, or whether football - where the real money and power lies - splits off on its own.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/villanova/20110512_Looks_like_2015_would_be_earliest_for_Vil lanova_football_in_Big_East.html#ixzz1MKODWgrn

I'm shocked I didn't get any attribution in this article. xlolx