Wisconsin Whitewater should move to the FCS

[App-a-latch-un]

6th straight National Championship appearance, can draw 12k to their stadium with 11k undergraduates. They would be a good addition.

[ngineer]

Is it just me, or is there something screwy that is not being looked into at the D-3 level. SIX YEARS IN A ROW the same two teams meet in the Championship game...From hundreds of D-3 schools--by far the largest football division in the country--the same two for six freakin' years??? This is a division where the players supposedly get no scholarships and only get whatever financial aid package any other student would get matriculating at the school. How does one continually recruit such players and dominate in such a scenario?? I find it very puzzling.

[ASU_Fanatic]

Yeah I agree, move both of them up, at least take them from D3.

[CFBfan]

Is it just me, or is there something screwy that is not being looked into at the D-3 level. SIX YEARS IN A ROW the same two teams meet in the Championship game...From hundreds of D-3 schools--by far the largest football division in the country--the same two for six freakin' years??? This is a division where the players supposedly get no scholarships and only get whatever financial aid package any other student would get matriculating at the school. How does one continually recruit such players and dominate in such a scenario?? I find it very puzzling.

I thin the 2 key words in your statement are "supposedly" and "only". Clearly there are things going on under the table

[darell1976]

Funny how the whole state of Wisconsin has zero FCS and I believe no D2 teams either. The state is highly recruited by NDSU, and UND.

[blukeys]

6th straight National Championship appearance, can draw 12k to their stadium with 11k undergraduates. They would be a good addition.

I agree 100%. Let's trade Wisconscin White Water and Mount Union for the Pioneer Football League. It would imrpove FCS.

[DetroitFlyer]

I agree 100%. Let's trade Wisconscin White Water and Mount Union for the Pioneer Football League. It would imrpove FCS.

Highly unlikely. Both schools could give many FCS teams a decent game. No doubt that is odd that these two continue to rise to the top every season. Perhaps success breeds success? If a kid is a top Division III prospect and one or both schools offers an academic program that is acceptable, then maybe they choose one of those two over the rest of Division III. Mount Union had their first ever player drafted recently. I think he plays for the Colts? If I remember correctly, he may have been a Division I transfer. As for the PFL, I think UD, JU, and Drake would defeat either team. The rest of the league would give them great games and have a good chance to win, except Valpo....

[MplsBison]

Mount Union is just a freak. They're a small private school in Ohio and they get kids who can play football at that level. And they do it all without having a DI basketball program to lean on! (Pioneer schools)


The Wisconsin schools, on the other hand, should be kicked out of DIII. It's disgusting to me that publicly funded (state funded) institutions should be allowed to use tax dollars for an athletic program and not give any scholarships. It's against the spirit of publicly funded programs. Make them go DII.

But I do agree, Whitewater would compete just fine at the FCS level once they got their scholarship numbers up. Same with Minnesota-Duluth.

[TexasTerror]

Is it just me, or is there something screwy that is not being looked into at the D-3 level. SIX YEARS IN A ROW the same two teams meet in the Championship game...From hundreds of D-3 schools--by far the largest football division in the country--the same two for six freakin' years??? This is a division where the players supposedly get no scholarships and only get whatever financial aid package any other student would get matriculating at the school. How does one continually recruit such players and dominate in such a scenario?? I find it very puzzling.

Not puzzling at all...

In the world of NCAA football at the lowest levels, there is a GREAT disparity as far as funding and infastructure. You have public schools with cheap as heck tuition and large bases for which to collect student fees, etc. Then you have private schools with limited or no funding, just getting by - but participating in D3 athletics.

Wisc-Whitewater is a PUBLIC school with over 11,000 undergraduates. That is an odd ball by D3 standards. I'm sure tuition is very much below the D3 average and the enrollment sure as heck is.

[aceinthehole]

Does anyone have a list of the top-10 D-II and D-III schools (by UG enrollment).

I think UC-San Diego is the largest D-II program, but I can't seem to find a list of the largest D-II or D-III schools. If anyone could do the reasearch or dig up a link, it would be much appreciated. :)

[WileECoyote06]

Does anyone have a list of the top-10 D-II and D-III schools (by UG enrollment).

I think UC-San Diego is the largest D-II program, but I can't seem to find a list of the largest D-II or D-III schools. If anyone could do the reasearch or dig up a link, it would be much appreciated. :)
Top ten that field football:

Wayne State 31,000
Grand Valley State 24,550
Long Island University - C.W. Post 24,170
St. Cloud State 18,319
University of Central Oklahoma 17,101
Minnesota State-Mankato 15,393
Indiana U of Pennsylvania 15,000+
University of Nebraska-Omaha 14,903
Western Washington 14,575
Ferris State 13,865

[Model Citizen]

Top ten that field football:

Wayne State 31,000
Grand Valley State 24,550
Long Island University - C.W. Post 24,170
St. Cloud State 18,319
University of Central Oklahoma 17,101
Minnesota State-Mankato 15,393
Indiana U of Pennsylvania 15,000+
University of Nebraska-Omaha 14,903
Western Washington 14,575
Ferris State 13,865

High percentage of commuter enrollment at some of those schools.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The fact that PA does not have one state school playing FCS football has always been a head scratcher to me.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The fact that PA does not have one state school playing FCS football has always been a head scratcher to me.

If 'Nova goes Big East, Westchester should move up to fill their spot in the FCS.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If 'Nova goes Big East, Westchester should move up to fill their spot in the FCS.

I would think IUP, Cal, Bloomsburg or East Stroudsburg would be the best candidates to move up. However, since they're all in cahoots with eachother i doubt it will ever happen.

[aceinthehole]

Thanks for the info, but I finally found exactly what I was looking for.

10 Largest (by undergrad enrollment) Public D-II schools w/Football:

1. Grand Valley State University Allendale MI (18,434)
2. Wayne State University Detroit MI (13,030)
3. Saint Cloud State University Saint Cloud MN (11,988)
4. Minnesota State University-Mankato Mankato MN (11,409)
5. Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana PA (11,254)
6. West Chester University of Pennsylvania West Chester PA (10,767)
7. University of Central Oklahoma Edmond OK (9,825)
8. Central Washington University Ellensburg WA (9,205)
9. Ferris State University Big Rapids MI (9,191)
10. University of Minnesota-Duluth Duluth MN (9,045)


10 Largest (by undergrad enrollment) Public D-III schools w/Football:

1. Montclair State University Montclair NJ (11,654)
2. University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire Eau Claire WI (9,791)
3. Kean University Union NJ (9,244)
4. University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh Oshkosh WI (9,126)
5. University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Whitewater WI (8,999)
6. SUNY College at Buffalo Buffalo NY (8,769)
7. Rowan University Glassboro NJ (8,303)
8. University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point Stevens Point WI (8,229)
9. University of Wisconsin-La Crosse La Crosse WI (8,130)
10. William Paterson University Wayne NJ (7,741)

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Looks like Wisconsin certainly represents itself well in the DIII area. You'd think the Badgers would be better since the state apparently doesn't want them having any in-state Div I rivals.

[superman7515]

I would say Bloomsburg could move up to FCS and Wesley could move up to Div 2 to take their place in the PSAC since the Atlantic Central is literally closing up shop because Wesley wins too much, haha.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What is the SUNY College at Buffalo? When i google it all that comes up is UB. Is that some sort of IUPUI type deal or something?

[superman7515]

Buffalo State?

[blukeys]

If 'Nova goes Big East, Westchester should move up to fill their spot in the FCS.

Not sure if you had your tongue in cheek but West Chester is part of the PSAC which is limited to giving 24 scholarships. I don't believe they can bail from this conference as they are state funded along with the other PA teacher schools.

[superman7515]

http://www.buffalostateathletics.com/

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

http://www.buffalostateathletics.com/

Thanks! Usually i'm pretty familiar with different schools but the Suny college at Buffalo threw me a curveball.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Not sure if you had your tongue in cheek but West Chester is part of the PSAC which is limited to giving 24 scholarships. I don't believe they can bail from this conference as they are state funded along with the other PA teacher schools.

It was halfway tongue-in-cheek. It would be nice to be able to keep the series with Westchester going on even footing, and with 12,000 or so undergrads (according to wikipedia) Westchester is big enough to support FCS football. That being said, I don't know how much control the state of PA exerts over it's state funded institutions. UD and Del State both receive state funding, but appear to be free to do pretty much whatever they want, maybe in PA it's different.

[aceinthehole]

Looks like Wisconsin certainly represents itself well in the DIII area. You'd think the Badgers would be better since the state apparently doesn't want them having any in-state Div I rivals.

Yeah, 5 of the 10 largest D-III schools with football are in Wisconsin, but 4 of the the top 10 are in New Jersey.

What kinda suprised me was how small the D-III Mass State Colleges are compared to the NJ and WI schools.

Bridgewater State College Bridgewater MA (7,480)
University of Massachusetts-Dartmouth North Dartmouth MA (7,046)
Westfield State College Westfield MA (4,526)
Fitchburg State College Fitchburg MA (3,481)
Worcester State College Worcester MA (3,479)
Framingham State College Framingham MA (3,068)
Massachusetts Maritime Academy Buzzards Bay MA (1,177)

[aceinthehole]

And just in case anyone was wondering, here's the largest PRIVATE school in each division that play football.

D-II Pace University New York NY (6,477)
D-III Ithaca College Ithaca NY (6,355)

[BlueHenSinfonian]

And just in case anyone was wondering, here's the largest PRIVATE school in each division that play football.

D-II Pace University New York NY (6,477)
D-III Ithaca College Ithaca NY (6,355)

As it was mentioned earlier, it would be interesting to see the mix of on campus vs. commuting students, as well as full time traditional (after HS or shortly after HS) vs continuing ed students for these schools. IIRC Pace's enrollment is majority commuting, and I am guessing it is similar for some of these other schools.

[Redhawk2010]

I interned this past summer at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and worked with the football staff a few times throughout the summer. They have amazing facilities up there. In fact, with the exception of their basketball gym, they have nicer athletic facilities than SEMO does BY FAR. Their football camps drew around 300 for each one I believe. I know the one camp that I worked with them had approximately 320. Their head coach has had chances to go work at DI schools and actually chose UWW over some FCS schools. He also coached at Nebraska for a little while.

UWW athletics are a DIII program that operates with a Division One mentality from what I could see. It looks like they put their money into the programs and facilities rather than into scholarships. And I would imagine it would be hard for them to move to FCS since their conference is full over other Wisconsin state schools like them.

[DSUrocks07]

Wisconsin-Whitewater is the class of D-III schools in their state, that alone should have them be the leading candidate for moving up to D-II, Mt Union? They should already be a D-II, as should Wesley (DE).

On a side note, now that Delaware Tech is participating in JUCO athletics, they should start considering fielding a football team. xthumbsupx

[superman7515]

On a side note, now that Delaware Tech is participating in JUCO athletics, they should start considering fielding a football team. xthumbsupx

+1

[ngineer]

It was halfway tongue-in-cheek. It would be nice to be able to keep the series with Westchester going on even footing, and with 12,000 or so undergrads (according to wikipedia) West Chester is big enough to support FCS football. That being said, I don't know how much control the state of PA exerts over it's state funded institutions. UD and Del State both receive state funding, but appear to be free to do pretty much whatever they want, maybe in PA it's different.

Fixed it for ya. Don't want to get those guys mixed up with suburbs north of NYC. No way does WCU leave the PSAC for a slot in the FCS. All the purse strings are controlled by the Commonwealth. The PSAC schools are "state universities" as opposed to PSU, Pitt and Temple who are "state related" and more independence in their governance.

[downbythebeach]

Just like Bryant I always thought some of the teams mentioned in this thread would make good NEC teams.
Rowan, TCNJ, West Chester, Pace

[downbythebeach]

The D1 campus of LIU is already in the NEC......we should get the D2 athletic department by default.

By the way I went to the NEC's (main) LIU, if Ikea created a gym it would be their place.

[glsjunior]

Kennesaw State should dominate at the Div III level.

[MplsBison]

Not puzzling at all...

In the world of NCAA football at the lowest levels, there is a GREAT disparity as far as funding and infastructure. You have public schools with cheap as heck tuition and large bases for which to collect student fees, etc. Then you have private schools with limited or no funding, just getting by - but participating in D3 athletics.

Wisc-Whitewater is a PUBLIC school with over 11,000 undergraduates. That is an odd ball by D3 standards. I'm sure tuition is very much below the D3 average and the enrollment sure as heck is.

DIII should be for small private schools. IE, schools that can really only afford to fund a "participation" based model.

If you're a public school, period, or if you're a bigger private school that can afford to fund scholarships - you should be FORCED to do so!!!!!!

Absolutely incredible that the NCAA allows Wisc *public* schools to get away with only funding a participation based athletics department when they clearly can afford to and very much do fund something at a higher level than what the typical DIII can afford (which is what DIII was set up for, so those schools would have a division to play in).

[blukeys]

Guys this has been fun but has anyone actually watched top level d-3 programs and games??? I live 5 minutes from the home field of Wesley College and have dropped into their games over the last 10 years. Wesley just lost in the playoffs to Wisconsin WW.

Wesley is not within 40 points to an average CAA team and not within 3 scores to a not so good MEAC team. DSU and Wesley play less than 3 miles apart and it would be a game that would generate local interest. It might be a game for one quarter.

Sadly, there may be a FCS conference that would be dominated by Mount Union or Wisconsin WhiteWater but the vast majority of FCS quality conference teams would not break out in a sweat playing these teams.

Anyone seriously looking at teams that could move to FCS need to look at the D-2 finals.

[ccd494]

DIII should be for small private schools. IE, schools that can really only afford to fund a "participation" based model.

If you're a public school, period, or if you're a bigger private school that can afford to fund scholarships - you should be FORCED to do so!!!!!!

Absolutely incredible that the NCAA allows Wisc *public* schools to get away with only funding a participation based athletics department when they clearly can afford to and very much do fund something at a higher level than what the typical DIII can afford (which is what DIII was set up for, so those schools would have a division to play in).

Wait.... what????

Are we all just ignoring him because he's an idiot, or should I point out the stupidity of forcing any academic institution to spend money on athletics against its will?

[MplsBison]

Wait.... what????

Are we all just ignoring him because he's an idiot, or should I point out the stupidity of forcing any academic institution to spend money on athletics against its will?

It's already being done. The NCAA has many rules that require athletic departments to spend more money than they would otherwise.

[danefan]

Guys this has been fun but has anyone actually watched top level d-3 programs and games??? I live 5 minutes from the home field of Wesley College and have dropped into their games over the last 10 years. Wesley just lost in the playoffs to Wisconsin WW.

Wesley is not within 40 points to an average CAA team and not within 3 scores to a not so good MEAC team. DSU and Wesley play less than 3 miles apart and it would be a game that would generate local interest. It might be a game for one quarter.

Sadly, there may be a FCS conference that would be dominated by Mount Union or Wisconsin WhiteWater but the vast majority of FCS quality conference teams would not break out in a sweat playing these teams.

Anyone seriously looking at teams that could move to FCS need to look at the D-2 finals.

+1. I've seen some pretty solid DIII teams play and not one would hang with any FCS teams, sans the very bottom.

And BTW - DIII teams could very easily be better than PFL teams, even though I'm pretty confident in saying that the top 25% of PFL teams would beat all DIII teams.

DIII - no athletic scholarships, no NCAA clearinghouse, very little NCAA oversight (e.g. limited drug testing, etc..)
PFL - no athletic scholarships, NCAA clearinghouse, tight NCAA oversight

The only difference is the DI name and for some PFL schools, DI all-sport facilities (e.g. Dayton's non-stadium facilities (medical, training, etc..) are top notch because of Bball). But do you really think that without a scholarship on the table, Valpo has that much more to offer a kid then Mount Union?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

+1. I've seen some pretty solid DIII teams play and not one would hang with any FCS teams, sans the very bottom.

And BTW - DIII teams could very easily be better than PFL teams, even though I'm pretty confident in saying that the top 25% of PFL teams would beat all DIII teams.

DIII - no athletic scholarships, no NCAA clearinghouse, very little NCAA oversight (e.g. limited drug testing, etc..)
PFL - no athletic scholarships, NCAA clearinghouse, tight NCAA oversight

The only difference is the DI name and for some PFL schools, DI all-sport facilities (e.g. Dayton's non-stadium facilities (medical, training, etc..) are top notch because of Bball). But do you really think that without a scholarship on the table, Valpo has that much more to offer a kid then Mount Union?

The question is just hypothetical, because even if WI-Whitewater could compete in FCS football, the institution might not have the money to move all of its sports to DI, or to even field the minimum number of sports to be DI eligible. However, just because a DIII team couldn't compete at the FCS level in its current state, with the winning tradition and coaching in place, wouldn't the addition of 63 scholarships suddenly make them much more competitive? Teams like Mount Union and WI-W have all of the infrastructure in place for a successful program already, being able to recruit top talent might make them FCS powerhouses pretty quickly.

[MplsBison]

+1. I've seen some pretty solid DIII teams play and not one would hang with any FCS teams, sans the very bottom.

And BTW - DIII teams could very easily be better than PFL teams, even though I'm pretty confident in saying that the top 25% of PFL teams would beat all DIII teams.

DIII - no athletic scholarships, no NCAA clearinghouse, very little NCAA oversight (e.g. limited drug testing, etc..)
PFL - no athletic scholarships, NCAA clearinghouse, tight NCAA oversight

The only difference is the DI name and for some PFL schools, DI all-sport facilities (e.g. Dayton's non-stadium facilities (medical, training, etc..) are top notch because of Bball). But do you really think that without a scholarship on the table, Valpo has that much more to offer a kid then Mount Union?

The question at hand is "should Wisc-WW move to FCS". Not, "can Wisc-WW compete with FCS schools now as a DIII program?". I'm not really sure how that non sequitor tangent came to be, but it should go in another thread.

So, if we assume that there was a FCS football conference ready to offer Wisc-WW membership and the school had teh cash to fund a move up - do you think they could compete as an FCS program?

One thing that might be worth noting is that DI schools (and DII schools) have another advantage over DIII schools than just scholarships. They can choose to participate in the NLI program that asks recruits to sign what's basically a contract saying they will enroll at a school in the fall. DIII doesn't have anything like that and as far as I know, if a recruit decides on a whim over the summer that he will not show up in the fall there's really nothing the program can do about it.

[DSUrocks07]

To the OP

shouldn't they move to D-II first and see how that goes? xreadx

[wr70beh]

They would have to move the whole WIAC conference to FCS in order for that to happen. UW-Whitewater would be on an island if they moved by themselves. I will say that some of the other UW-_______ do well in other sports at the D3 level.

[Redhawk2010]

They would have to move the whole WIAC conference to FCS in order for that to happen. UW-Whitewater would be on an island if they moved by themselves. I will say that some of the other UW-_______ do well in other sports at the D3 level.

UWW is a competitor in every single sport. They have multiple nation championships in the last 10-15 years and not just in football. Volleyball and baseball have each won D3 national championships recently. Their men's basketball team won the conference a year ago, but UW-Stevens Point went on to win the D3 national championship.

UWW has Division One facilities for the most part. I would say that their basketball gym and their weight room are the only things not at that level already. Their athletic training rooms are both at an FCS level easily and their football stadium is already big enough. They would probably need to add seats on the visiting side, but maybe not..

Thing is do they have an interest in moving up AND does the state have the money to move up? My guess is they are happy where they are.

[MplsBison]

They would have to move the whole WIAC conference to FCS in order for that to happen. UW-Whitewater would be on an island if they moved by themselves. I will say that some of the other UW-_______ do well in other sports at the D3 level.

UW-Milwaukee and UW-Green Bay are in the same system and no in the WIAC. They seem to do ok.

But really, the WIAC should move up to DII. They'd be natural competition for the NSIC.

[UAalum72]

The question is just hypothetical, because even if WI-Whitewater could compete in FCS football, the institution might not have the money to move all of its sports to DI, or to even field the minimum number of sports to be DI eligible.
WI-Whitewater currently sponsors 20 sports, so if they had to they could drop up to six to finance the rest (not that I'd normally support that)

[Redhawk2010]

WI-Whitewater currently sponsors 20 sports, so if they had to they could drop up to six to finance the rest (not that I'd normally support that)

But where do you start cutting? I just don't see it happening. I think they would have a hard time justifying cutting any sports. We obviously know that they are good in football, but they are also good in many sports. In addition to NCAA, the Warhawks are known internationally for their wheelchair basketball team. People travel from all over the world to play there!

[ccd494]

Does no one else see the irony of these arguments being made on an FCS board? How many BCS fans out there look at Montana, or Delaware, or Georgia Southern, or App State and say "that's adorable, you being successful in the FCS. How about you try that against us?" All of the arguments people give here for staying FCS and enjoying it (cheaper, rivalries, less travel, etc.) exist for NOT moving up to D-I. Maybe Mount Union would be good at football, but now are they going to have to pay to send a cross country team four states away?

Bigger and better in competition and scholarships does not necessarily mean a better situation overall, and the very existence of this message board belies that.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Does no one else see the irony of these arguments being made on an FCS board? How many BCS fans out there look at Montana, or Delaware, or Georgia Southern, or App State and say "that's adorable, you being successful in the FCS. How about you try that against us?"

I think a lot of fans from Delaware, Montana, GaSou, etc, would love to see their teams playing the BCS big boys, and that said teams could be competitive in the FBS world with the additional scholarships, and that those schools could support FBS football and even do it profitably. The problem is that right now the situation is rigged in the FBS. When UNC-Charlotte starts their football team, they could win the NC that first year if they schedule right and win all of their games. The playoff system puts all teams on equal footing and lets play on the field determine the rightful champion. Unfortunately in the FBS if Delaware, JMU, GaSou, Appy, etc, were to move up, they would be forced into a conference that isn't even allowed to play for the championship game, so what's the incentive? In the FCS, every team is equal, in the FBS, there is a clear divide between the haves and have-nots.

[downbythebeach]

I actually like following D3 football. I never went to a D3 school, but if I have the opportunity to check out a D3 game on a Saturday during the fall, and I have nothing else going on, I will be there no doubt.
This Mount Union - Wisconsin Whitewater thing is really boring though. This is the first year that I didn't watch the championship game on television. These two teams are so much better than the rest of the league that it is embarrassing. Mt. Union went I think 10 years without losing a conference game.
I had a friend that played at Mount Union about 5+ years ago. He told me they would routinely bring in 150 freshman recruits each year. He went to ask his position coach at the mid point of the season what he could do to get better, and his coach didn't even know his name.

The NCAA should allow Dayton to go back to D3 and teach them a lesson

[Redhawk2010]

This Mount Union - Wisconsin Whitewater thing is really boring though. This is the first year that I didn't watch the championship game on television. These two teams are so much better than the rest of the league that it is embarrassing. Mt. Union went I think 10 years without losing a conference game.


I'll bet the players at UWW and Mount Union don't find it boring. Isn't it that what D3 sports are supposed to be about?-- the athletes?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PSAC, WIAC and almost-regional conferences can compete where they want - I think historically they've been more D-II.

Pace in Westchester, NY is not going to Division II or FCS any time soon.

If you're competing as a "true" non-scholarship a public school with a tiny tuition would seem to have a built-in advantage over private schools. Never mind that you don't have the same academic oversight needed to be a Division I institution.

UW-Milwaukee left the WIAC in the 1960s for... the Horizon League. I'm guessing that that worked out OK for them... xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

I actually like following D3 football. I never went to a D3 school, but if I have the opportunity to check out a D3 game on a Saturday during the fall, and I have nothing else going on, I will be there no doubt.
This Mount Union - Wisconsin Whitewater thing is really boring though. This is the first year that I didn't watch the championship game on television. These two teams are so much better than the rest of the league that it is embarrassing. Mt. Union went I think 10 years without losing a conference game.
I had a friend that played at Mount Union about 5+ years ago. He told me they would routinely bring in 150 freshman recruits each year. He went to ask his position coach at the mid point of the season what he could do to get better, and his coach didn't even know his name.

The NCAA should allow Dayton to go back to D3 and teach them a lesson

Mt. Union's football coach should be paid 500k a year for all the kids he brings to that school. They are an average school in NE Ohio, and the football team attracts dozens of young men each year who don't recieve athletic aid.

[danefan]

The PSAC, WIAC and almost-regional conferences can compete where they want - I think historically they've been more D-II.

Pace in Westchester, NY is not going to Division II or FCS any time soon.

If you're competing as a "true" non-scholarship a public school with a tiny tuition would seem to have a built-in advantage over private schools. Never mind that you don't have the same academic oversight needed to be a Division I institution.

UW-Milwaukee left the WIAC in the 1960s for... the Horizon League. I'm guessing that that worked out OK for them... xlolx

Pace is a DII school (NE 10)

[downbythebeach]

A couple D3 schools that I know of do the same, but I cant imagine to the extent that MUC does. I had a friend that played at Thiel College in W. PA, and I remember they had a Freshman class of over 100 one year. These are small schools, that has to be about 1/4 of their male population.

[downbythebeach]

I'll bet the players at UWW and Mount Union don't find it boring. Isn't it that what D3 sports are supposed to be about?-- the athletes?

Wait...................What......................? Who said it wasn't?

[Redhawk2010]

Wait...................What......................? Who said it wasn't?

Read what you wrote. I quoted it for you. You turned it off because you found it boring. Why are the schools supposed to care that you find it boring?

[Mn_Moose]

UW-Milwaukee left the WIAC in the 1960s for... the Horizon League. I'm guessing that that worked out OK for them... xlolx

'cept UW Milwaukee dropped football in 1974 .................

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Read what you wrote. I quoted it for you. You turned it off because you found it boring. Why are the schools supposed to care that you find it boring?

This can be taken a couple of different ways. Collegiate athletics programs don't exist solely as an outlet for the students. Developing fan support, and thus donations to the school, is an important goal for any football program. On that level, yes, the school should absolutely care what the fans think.

Now, in this particular case, it's obviously ludicrous to assume that a school would stop winning to appease anyone, as I'm sure WI-Whitewater and Mount Union's fans are quite happy with the situation. However, if liberties are being taken with the lax rules governing Div III football leading to the creation of dynasties like this, the NCAA should absolutely care and should investigate to see why this is happening, and if the situation that is leading to these perpetual powerhouses is serving the student athletes involved as well as it could be.

In addition to making sure that all of the students involved in these programs are getting a fair shake, making sure that all of the division competes on a fairly level field is important to the health of the division overall. While NFL style regulations such as salary caps and revenue sharing don't linearly map to the situation in NCAA Div III football, it's clear that some regulation to prevent dynasties does benefit the league as a whole. If it's in the NCAA's interest to have as many schools participating under the NCAA banner as possible, they would be wise to make sure that those being routinely kept out of the Div III championship don't feel that it is due to lack of oversight, or else the NAIA might start to look very appealing to those schools.

[downbythebeach]

I sad it was boring that the same teams play every year.

You're a touchy guy I see.

[Twentysix]

I did see it posted earlier, but some of these schools are dropping football cause they cant afford it, St. Cloud State(Funneling money into butthockey is atleast a partial reason) is my immediate example.

That probably has a great deal as to why some of them dont go DI. If some are forced to drop it even though they're the bigger universitys in the respective division, others are probably just barely hanging on.

[WileECoyote06]

I think a lot of fans from Delaware, Montana, GaSou, etc, would love to see their teams playing the BCS big boys, and that said teams could be competitive in the FBS world with the additional scholarships, and that those schools could support FBS football and even do it profitably. The problem is that right now the situation is rigged in the FBS. When UNC-Charlotte starts their football team, they could win the NC that first year if they schedule right and win all of their games. The playoff system puts all teams on equal footing and lets play on the field determine the rightful champion. Unfortunately in the FBS if Delaware, JMU, GaSou, Appy, etc, were to move up, they would be forced into a conference that isn't even allowed to play for the championship game, so what's the incentive? In the FCS, every team is equal, in the FBS, there is a clear divide between the haves and have-nots.

I don't agree. . FCS isn't 'equal' either. A division that has state flagship schools competing against small regional colleges can never be properly balanced. Division II isn't equal either as the scholarship limits of some conferences will always work against them.

[ccd494]

I did see it posted earlier, but some of these schools are dropping football cause they cant afford it, St. Cloud State(Funneling money into butthockey is atleast a partial reason) is my immediate example.

Right, because participating in a sport that you can win the NCAA's highest national championship in, competing head to head against Big 10 schools and Notre Dame and Boston College, is an unworthy endeavor. D-I hockey smothers FCS football in revenues and eyeballs.

[Sly Fox]

Right, because participating in a sport that you can win the NCAA's highest national championship in, competing head to head against Big 10 schools and Notre Dame and Boston College, is an unworthy endeavor. D-I hockey smothers FCS football in revenues and eyeballs.

Easy now. That may be true in New England and in portions of the Great Lakes region, but that is far from an accurate statement nationally.

[ccd494]

Easy now. That may be true in New England and in portions of the Great Lakes region, but that is far from an accurate statement nationally.

It's a fact. The NCAA makes money on three things: BCS football, March Madness and the NCAA Hockey tournament. Occasionally the lacrosse final. 37,592 attended the Frozen Four Championship game last year. Double the FCS final attendance and you are still short.

[doolittledog]

UW-Whitewater plays at Perkins Stadium http://www.warhawkfootball.com/tour.asp

[doolittledog]

Forget Whitewater...the whole WIAC would make a fantastic D2 conference and would make a great rival for the Northern Sun...whose UM-Duluth just won the D2 championship. They would make great rivals for the GLIAC and MIAA as well.

BUT, I have no problem if UW-Whitewater and the WIAC want to stay D3. I also have no problem with the fact that Whitewater and MUC have played in the last 6 championship games. Those 2 schools don't have any advantages that the other schools in their conferences don't have. Yet we don't see UW-Platteville or Otterbein making their way to title games. Whitewater and MUC are just doing a better job than other schools in their conference and the rest of D3.

[glsjunior]

It's a fact. The NCAA makes money on three things: BCS football, March Madness and the NCAA Hockey tournament. Occasionally the lacrosse final. 37,592 attended the Frozen Four Championship game last year. Double the FCS final attendance and you are still short.

No one south of Philly gives a rat's azz about the frozen for or the NHL for that matter. Hell 60k were in the GA Dome to see two mediocre FCS programs in FAMU and TSU.

[NDB]

It's a fact. The NCAA makes money on three things: BCS football, March Madness and the NCAA Hockey tournament. Occasionally the lacrosse final. 37,592 attended the Frozen Four Championship game last year. Double the FCS final attendance and you are still short.

hockey is such an awesome sport.

[Franks Tanks]

It's a fact. The NCAA makes money on three things: BCS football, March Madness and the NCAA Hockey tournament. Occasionally the lacrosse final. 37,592 attended the Frozen Four Championship game last year. Double the FCS final attendance and you are still short.

College Hockey and FCS football are both sort of niche sports. Hockey is huge in a few places- Maine, BU, Northeastern, UNH, North Dakota, Minnesota etc.

FCS football is huge in a few spots- App State, Delaware, Montana, NDSU, Georgia Southern, Grambling, Southern etc. Outside of the hotspots college hockey and FCS football is largely ignored unfortunantly.

[WileECoyote06]

No one south of Philly gives a rat's azz about the frozen for or the NHL for that matter. Hell 60k were in the GA Dome to see two mediocre FCS programs in FAMU and TSU.

Not true. We LOVE the Hurricanes in the Triangle.

[MplsBison]

Forget Whitewater...the whole WIAC would make a fantastic D2 conference and would make a great rival for the Northern Sun...whose UM-Duluth just won the D2 championship. They would make great rivals for the GLIAC and MIAA as well.

BUT, I have no problem if UW-Whitewater and the WIAC want to stay D3. I also have no problem with the fact that Whitewater and MUC have played in the last 6 championship games. Those 2 schools don't have any advantages that the other schools in their conferences don't have. Yet we don't see UW-Platteville or Otterbein making their way to title games. Whitewater and MUC are just doing a better job than other schools in their conference and the rest of D3.

False. Every WIAC school has an automatic and crucial advantage over most of the small, private, liberal arts colleges that make up DIII: they're public universities. It's disgusting that the NCAA allows them to run a non-scholarship athletics department. They can afford to (and do!) fund at a higher level.

[MplsBison]

It's a fact. The NCAA makes money on three things: BCS football, March Madness and the NCAA Hockey tournament. Occasionally the lacrosse final. 37,592 attended the Frozen Four Championship game last year. Double the FCS final attendance and you are still short.

Does the NCAA make anything on the bowls? I thought that money was 100% controlled by the bowls and distributed to only the bowls administration costs, the participating schools and then some is donated to charity.

[doolittledog]

False. Every WIAC school has an automatic and crucial advantage over most of the small, private, liberal arts colleges that make up DIII: they're public universities. It's disgusting that the NCAA allows them to run a non-scholarship athletics department. They can afford to (and do!) fund at a higher level.

We don't find other WIAC schools consistantly at the top of the D3 rankings like we do Whitewater. While the WIAC schools are public, and therefore have lower tuition, as directional schools they often have endowments that are much lower than many of the smaller private liberal arts schools. That can equal things out for students and their out of pocket costs to go to school at a D3 school. The WIAC does have some advantages as far as facilities...but, again, we see Whitewater dominating D3 along with a small private school in Mt. Union. The other schools in both of those conferences would seem to have the same ability to dominate as those 2 schools, and yet they don't seem to get the same results.

This is strange for me to write because as a student at D3 Dubuque (many many years ago) I was able to see the facilities that UW-Platteville had that we couldn't come near to having. But, you often see small D3 schools in the east with huge endowments than can match anything these larger schools provide. There are many small private D3 schools with basketball facilities superior to any WIAC school. Grinnell College, Berea and a few other schools with huge endowments offer free tuition after finantial aid is taken care of. That would give them an advantage over the WIAC you would think.

[danefan]

Does the NCAA make anything on the bowls? I thought that money was 100% controlled by the bowls and distributed to only the bowls administration costs, the participating schools and then some is donated to charity.

I'm pretty sure the NCAA actually owns some of the bowls, but I may be misremembering that. I know that ESPN owns a number of the bowl games, but I think I read somewhere at some point that the NCAA did too.

[danefan]

We don't find other WIAC schools consistantly at the top of the D3 rankings like we do Whitewater. While the WIAC schools are public, and therefore have lower tuition, as directional schools they often have endowments that are much lower than many of the smaller private liberal arts schools. That can equal things out for students and their out of pocket costs to go to school at a D3 school. The WIAC does have some advantages as far as facilities...but, again, we see Whitewater dominating D3 along with a small private school in Mt. Union. The other schools in both of those conferences would seem to have the same ability to dominate as those 2 schools, and yet they don't seem to get the same results.

This is strange for me to write because as a student at D3 Dubuque (many many years ago) I was able to see the facilities that UW-Platteville had that we couldn't come near to having. But, you often see small D3 schools in the east with huge endowments than can match anything these larger schools provide. There are many small private D3 schools with basketball facilities superior to any WIAC school. Grinnell College, Berea and a few other schools with huge endowments offer free tuition after finantial aid is taken care of. That would give them an advantage over the WIAC you would think.

Yup.............xnodxxnodxxnodx

RPI is the best example:
http://chronicle.com/img/photos/biz/rpi402x267.jpg

[doolittledog]

Another thing to remember is most D2 schools spread out 24-36 scholarships among 85 kids for football and then have a lot less finantial aid to throw around than many private schools. I know a lot of kids that were recruited by D2, NAIA, and D3 schools. In almost every case they were able to go to a D3 school for less money out of pocket than to those D2 state schools with the scholarships and their low state tuition. I also know a kid that started out at UNI. He started out with a 50% scholarship. He redshirted his 1st year, got some special teams playing time as a redshirt freshman and then left UNI and transferred to the local D3 school, Wartburg. He was able to go to Wartburg for less money than he was paying to go to UNI...an FCS school and a 50% football scholarship under his belt.

Now, I do think that the WIAC should probably be a D2 conference...but, I don't think anyone should MAKE them move up. And really, if it is such an advantage then all the WIAC schools should be dominant...not just Whitewater. And how do you explain MUC??? They are a small school.

[MplsBison]

I'm pretty sure the NCAA actually owns some of the bowls, but I may be misremembering that. I know that ESPN owns a number of the bowl games, but I think I read somewhere at some point that the NCAA did too.

I don't think that is correct. I think all of the bowls are each run by a bowl committee/group that organizes all the administration, lines up the sponsors, writes the checks, sells the tickets, etc. Then they distribute any revenues from the game as required.

So not really sure if any of the bowls are "owned". Maybe a group owns the trademark on some of the historical bowls (Rose)?

[MplsBison]

Another thing to remember is most D2 schools spread out 24-36 scholarships among 85 kids for football and then have a lot less finantial aid to throw around than many private schools. I know a lot of kids that were recruited by D2, NAIA, and D3 schools. In almost every case they were able to go to a D3 school for less money out of pocket than to those D2 state schools with the scholarships and their low state tuition. I also know a kid that started out at UNI. He started out with a 50% scholarship. He redshirted his 1st year, got some special teams playing time as a redshirt freshman and then left UNI and transferred to the local D3 school, Wartburg. He was able to go to Wartburg for less money than he was paying to go to UNI...an FCS school and a 50% football scholarship under his belt.

Now, I do think that the WIAC should probably be a D2 conference...but, I don't think anyone should MAKE them move up. And really, if it is such an advantage then all the WIAC schools should be dominant...not just Whitewater. And how do you explain MUC??? They are a small school.

The aid that the DIII player is getting is institutional aid. That aid is available to all students and thus it is not considered a scholarship equivalency by the NCAA. That aid is not guaranteed to the player if he comes to play ball at the DIII school. The coach can promise this and that, but it is not up to the coach to decide how much of (or if) that aid is distributed to a player. Not so with DII athletic aid. Thus, you're talking apples and oranges.

The WIAC schools being public universities can afford to fund actual athletic aid, not just institutional aid, because they have low, state-subsidized tuition. The revenue they take in from games and booster support/donations plus the institutional support they received (which comes from state tax dollars) allows them this and also, in my opinion, further requires them to then give that money back at least partially to in-state players via scholarships.

The endowments you speak of are not lump sums of money that the universities can spend at their own will. It's usually a collection of gifts that each have special stipulations about who can receive them. An ex-chemistry professor might've made a gift with the stipulation that it be awarded to a promising chemistry grad student or something like that (you get the idea).


So yes, the WIAC schools do have an unfair advantage over DIII schools, in principle. Good for the real DIII schools (small, private, liberal arts colleges that actually *can't* afford to support athletic aid for players) if they've been able to overcome that unfair disadvantage, like Mount Union has.