Colgate Starting to Put It Out There (PL Scholarships)

[colgate13]

Far from anything official or firm, but this is still a fairly important thing IMO. In a Q&A web feature (http://athletics.colgate.edu/askdaveanswersjan.htm), Colgate AD Dave Roach stated:




Question: Now that Colgate gives athletic scholarships for hockey and basketball, and other sports, are there plans to give athletic scholarships for football?

Dave's Answer: Presently the Patriot League only allows need-based financial aid in football. Personally I would like to see that change to athletic scholarships because it would increase our recruiting pool.



That last sentence is not there by accident. I think it is telling that Colgate's AD, on Colgate's website, is stating a preference for football scholarships. I don't think he does that without the support of the higher ups (I don't recall previous AD Mark Murphy ever doing anything so bold but I could be wrong).

Personally I think the wheels are turning behind the scenes and this was just a glimpse into it; kind of a 'heads up'. We shall see... :read:

[OL FU]

Far from anything official or firm, but this is still a fairly important thing IMO. In a Q&A web feature (http://athletics.colgate.edu/askdaveanswersjan.htm), Colgate AD Dave Roach stated:





That last sentence is not there by accident. I think it is telling that Colgate's AD, on Colgate's website, is stating a preference for football scholarships. I don't think he does that without the support of the higher ups (I don't recall previous AD Mark Murphy ever doing anything so bold but I could be wrong).

Personally I think the wheels are turning behind the scenes and this was just a glimpse into it; kind of a 'heads up'. We shall see... :read:


:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

Absolutely. I have never understood why not football (except for the numbers)

You have probably discussed a million times before, but I will ask again.

If Colgate decides to do this does it wait for the rest of the PL?

And if the answer is some where in the link tell me and I will read it (later)

[colgate13]

If Colgate decides to do this does it wait for the rest of the PL?

No answer in the link. Just that comment only.

Since the PL does not allow football scholarships, it would require PL approval for Colgate to do this. 'PL approval' means the university presidents agree to allow it. With (almost) everyone on board with BB scholarships and more than one (and soon more I think) schools on board with other non-football scholarships, I think that if Colgate got it through the presidents that they would not be the only school that starts offering football scholarships.

The real issue at play here is do the other 6 football schools really not want football scholarships - and if so, are they willing to bar Colgate from them when Colgate allowed those that wanted basketball scholarships to have them?

Finally, what would Colgate do in pursuit of football scholarships? I can't see leaving the PL as an option, so would the other 6 schools call Colgate's bluff? And if they did, what kind of long term relationship does that start to set up? There is precedent in the PL for a school leaving the league because of inflexibility (or plain old senselessness!) of league policy (Fordham). Losing Colgate wouldn't sink the PL but it would darn near come close. I think it's a game of chicken. Personally I'd like to see Colgate say: here's what we're doing. Kick our football program out if you dare. I think we could land on our feet. :twocents:

Ultimately though what I think will happen is some high powered pressure among presidents with a 'scholarship bloc' forming soon - like in the next year or so. I see Colgate, Bucknell and Lafayette at the heart of that bloc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting stuff... :eyebrow:

That's about as official as you're going to get - on a university-paid web site and a university-paid interviewer making a feature. Could it be a warning shot across the bow to other PL teams?

As for Lehigh: I don't know where we stand on scholarships for football. My feeling has always been that our AD has been happy with the status quo, but I don't think there's active opposition to them due to financial reasons (like at Lafayette, Forhdam, G'Town).

If I were handicapping I'd say:

Colgate, Bucknell: YES to schollies
Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross: Undecided
Fordham, G'Town: NO to schollies

Lafayette and HC in the "Undecided" camp would be the major shift here in my mind. The huge question here is about the affiliates (Fordham, G'Town) who are not interested in ramping up their football commitments further (again, IMO). Would either, or both, leave?

If both leave, that means you're also dependent on Richmond and/or Villanova joining the PL at full scholly level (or a third team, just as Johns Hopkins, moving up and accepting full scholies) just to keep the autobid.

I know - all speculation on my part, but I find this disclosure very interesting.

Out of curiosity, what are the "other sports" that Colgate gives schollies for?

[carney2]

Ultimately though what I think will happen is some high powered pressure among presidents with a 'scholarship bloc' forming soon - like in the next year or so. I see Colgate, Bucknell and Lafayette at the heart of that bloc.


Bucknell? You and I have had a go round or two on this board about Lafingyet and I don't think that we need to rehash it. But, Bucknell? Over Lehigh? Over Fordham?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bucknell? You and I have had a go round or two on this board about Lafingyet and I don't think that we need to rehash it. But, Bucknell? Over Lehigh? Over Fordham?

I happen to agree with 13 on Bucknell warming to scholarships. First of all, Bucknell's success at basketball has given the Bison a huge inflow that they didn't have before - which appears to be getting distributed to all sports, including football.

Second, I sense rumblings that since Bucknell's "experiment" with B-Ball scholarships have been so successful - why not other sports, like football? Scholarships have made Bucknell from a backwater to part of the national conversation in athletics - and the Bison are trying to seize the opportunity.

I think the Bison are in the "YES" camp. Now, Lehigh and Lafayette... I am not so sure.

[OL FU]

Interesting stuff... :eyebrow:

That's about as official as you're going to get - on a university-paid web site and a university-paid interviewer making a feature. Could it be a warning shot across the bow to other PL teams?

As for Lehigh: I don't know where we stand on scholarships for football. My feeling has always been that our AD has been happy with the status quo, but I don't think there's active opposition to them due to financial reasons (like at Lafayette, Forhdam, G'Town).

If I were handicapping I'd say:

Colgate, Bucknell: YES to schollies
Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross: Undecided
Fordham, G'Town: NO to schollies

Lafayette and HC in the "Undecided" camp would be the major shift here in my mind. The huge question here is about the affiliates (Fordham, G'Town) who are not interested in ramping up their football commitments further (again, IMO). Would either, or both, leave?

If both leave, that means you're also dependent on Richmond and/or Villanova joining the PL at full scholly level (or a third team, just as Johns Hopkins, moving up and accepting full scholies) just to keep the autobid.

I know - all speculation on my part, but I find this disclosure very interesting.

Out of curiosity, what are the "other sports" that Colgate gives schollies for?

For further education, why are athletic scholarships more expensive then equivalencies? Assuming you give the same number? Or is the argument that the academic scholarships will still be given just not to athletes?

[ChickenMan]

Finally, what would Colgate do in pursuit of football scholarships? I can't see leaving the PL as an option, so would the other 6 schools call Colgate's bluff?


I know it won't happen, but Colgate as an all sports member in the new CAA might work. Maybe a trade... Villanova for Colgate... :D

[colgate13]

Could it be a warning shot across the bow to other PL teams?

I actually see it as a bone for fans. Other PL schools (via their presidents) are sure to know about Colgate's wishes by now.


Lafayette and HC in the "Undecided" camp would be the major shift here in my mind.

HC is in the no camp. President steadfastly against it. LC currently is the basketball holdout, but their president seems to see the scholarship light, so I like their long term chances.


Out of curiosity, what are the "other sports" that Colgate gives schollies for?

12. M/W Basketball, ice hockey, lacrosse, soccer. W's softball, volleyball, swimming & diving, and field hockey. Football is the '13th' supported sport with equivalencies (pure coincidence - I swear!).

The sports not getting scholarships (or any type of aid support) are: M/W crew, cross country, tennis, track. M's golf and swimming & diving.

[colgate13]

Bucknell? You and I have had a go round or two on this board about Lafingyet and I don't think that we need to rehash it. But, Bucknell? Over Lehigh? Over Fordham?

In addition to what LFN said, it's pretty much a done deal from what I hear that the Bison will be rolling out a scholarship program to match Colgate's by next year's recruiting cycle. They see the light.

[colgate13]

For further education, why are athletic scholarships more expensive then equivalencies? Assuming you give the same number? Or is the argument that the academic scholarships will still be given just not to athletes?

They are not more expensive. IMO only (I am not a lawyer, NCAA compliance officer or Dept of Ed employee) there are misguided thoughts that going to scholarships somehow throws PL school's Title IX out of balance. As if the millions we spend now on football are somehow exempt from consideration!

The thought that floats around out there is that 55 or whatever scholarships to football would require a similar increase in women's scholarships. I disagree wholeheartedly and think no additional money needs to be spent. You're just changing the criteria for distribution of money ALREADY given on an athletics basis. I went a few rounds with a Holy Cross poster about this one! I can send you the link if you like...

[colgate13]

I know it won't happen, but Colgate as an all sports member in the new CAA might work. Maybe a trade... Villanova for Colgate... :D

Who knows what the landscape might look like in 10 years? But pissing off a generally very happy Colgate for some idealistic and misguided reason is a great way to start to make us unhappy (and looking at the grass being greener...)

The future of the PL, if it is to be of any relevance in Division I, is with athletic scholarships. Just ask Bucknell - or for less high profile cases, Colgate soccer, ice hockey, etc. We see that we're getting better students and athletes with scholarships.

[LBPop]

I have no special information--NONE, but I have started to form an impression of the new direction for Georgetown football. I would suspect that the new AD has a much friendlier point of view toward football scholarships. How that would play with the administration is something that I am not qualified to even speculate.

Of course, the question is $$$ and there just isn't nearly as much available to Hoya football as there is to other PL programs. Again, I don't know all the mechanics, but I would think that the recent success and bright future of the Georgetown basketball program will help all Hoya teams financially.

Again this is just my impression, but being an old guy business man I'm pretty fair at sensing attitudes and changes in priorities from people in charge of organizations. I'm really feelin' it at Georgetown.

[blukeys]

I have no special information--NONE, but I have started to form an impression of the new direction for Georgetown football. I would suspect that the new AD has a much friendlier point of view toward football scholarships. How that would play with the administration is something that I am not qualified to even speculate.

Of course, the question is $$$ and there just isn't nearly as much available to Hoya football as there is to other PL programs. Again, I don't know all the mechanics, but I would think that the recent success and bright future of the Georgetown basketball program will help all Hoya teams financially.

Again this is just my impression, but being an old guy business man I'm pretty fair at sensing attitudes and changes in priorities from people in charge of organizations. I'm really feelin' it at Georgetown.


At least on the philosophic level one would think Georgetown would be open to the idea of scholarships since they have had basketball scholarships long before other PL teams. One would think that treating football and basketball in the same vein would also be easier to administer.

[Pard4Life]

Hearing the phrases 'football scholarship' and 'opening shot across the bow' have made my head spin. We have not even gotten the basketball scholarship issues across yet. Weiss made his presentation to the faculty and from what other pard posters say, there is going to be an open faculty meeting on the issue this coming week. The faculty has traditionally been heavily opposed to scholarships in the past, but Weiss seems to have mollified some discontent so far. You would expect grumblings about the new football stadium , which were presented in a meeting Tuesday, but people did not have any questions and a faculty member described it as 'a masterful presentation'. Also, he said scholarships would be funded from reallocating existing funds. But, let's wait and see if any organized resistance is going to come out of this week's meeting. And, there is still the issue of the April vote.

These scholarships are for basketball only. No mention for other sports. How can we possibly be on board for football scholarships if other sports are not given scholarships? I want to see other sports with schollies, and before football. If we push the football concept suddenly, I think the faculty and Weiss' domestic support will erode. If Lafayette is on board for football scholarships, and I certainly hope that is the case once the topic is formally proposed... I'm guessing around 2009... that we vote yes.

I don't want to accuse of Colgate jumping the gun here, but I hope they keep the football scholarship issue to a whisper right now and keep it to themselves, for the time being. Any strong winds a'blowin on this issue and the ship will rock at College Hill. Remember, we are a wooden caravel ship compared to your Queen Mary in terms of athletics right now.

As for Colgate leaving the PL, I hope that never happens, and I hope they don't become recalcitrant and bombastic like Holy Cross seemed to get over basketball scholarships. If anything, Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette should be a permanent bloc.. like NATO.. ;) , with Lehigh acting as an associate member. I'd include them in the bloc, but they are a national university unlike the rest of us.

[ngineer]

There's no question that you can get better athletes AND students by going the full scholarship route. Lehigh has shown that with its wrestling team. Since going to scholarships, Lehigh has been ranked in the top 10 in the country 5 out of the last 6 years, finishing as high as a third a couple years ago. Moreover, the wrestling team's gpa is one of the leading teams on campus with 15 wrestlers currently having 3.0+ gpas for the fall semester--and we're talking various engineering, business and science curriculums. So there is not reason to deny scholarships on an academic basis.
It comes down to philosophy regarding giving a full scholarship to a prospective student that comes from a wealthy family that can easily afford a PL school (35-40k/year) as opposed to giving the money to students from a lower economic strata--all other talents/etc. being equal. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'--just a philosophical perspective. Clearly, schools such as Duke, Stanford, Rice, etc. have shown that scholarships do not detract from an academic mission so long as not compromise occurs on that end..

[OL FU]

They are not more expensive. IMO only (I am not a lawyer, NCAA compliance officer or Dept of Ed employee) there are misguided thoughts that going to scholarships somehow throws PL school's Title IX out of balance. As if the millions we spend now on football are somehow exempt from consideration!

The thought that floats around out there is that 55 or whatever scholarships to football would require a similar increase in women's scholarships. I disagree wholeheartedly and think no additional money needs to be spent. You're just changing the criteria for distribution of money ALREADY given on an athletics basis. I went a few rounds with a Holy Cross poster about this one! I can send you the link if you like...

Sure

[Go...gate]

As far as I am concerned, Lehigh is a FULL member of the bloc, which is foursquare Colgate, Bucknell, Lafayette and the Engineers. I'm also not prepared to count Holy Cross and Fordham out - especially if the league goes to FB scholarships. In such an instance, we could probably have some kind of FB scheduling arrangement with Army and Navy for two games a year, which would bring the conference membership even closer.

As controversial as this is, Colgate is ready to throw down the sword. This might be the catalyst to turn the Patriot League into one of the leading conferences in Division 1 overall.

[carney2]

Another well done to Pard4Life for his summary of the scholarship situation at Lafayette. I've been trying to get some sort of a handle on this ever since Colgate13 first mentioned that he considers the Pards something of a first tier fellow traveler in Colgate's quest for football scholarships. Intuitively it never made sense to me, but Mr. 13 has time and again demonstrated that he knows his stuff, so I have, to some degree, been buying into it. I think that Pard4Life's post has helped my meager and much abused collection of gray cells find some sort of a "middle road" in this discussion.

In any event, the athletic (color that basketball) scholarship question is a very hot issue at Lafayette and is back on the front burner. President Weiss promises a decision "this spring," but will not be more specific. The next Board of Trustees meeting is scheduled for, I believe, early April, but he will not guarantee that this will be the decision date. He says that he wants to get this issue settled and off the table so that attention and priorities can be directed elsewhere. Realistically, the only way that his issue can be put in the rear view mirror is with a "yes" decision. Those of us who see the current situation as some form of idealistic lunacy will be forever rattling their collective cages if they vote to maintain the status quo.

Arthur Rothkopf had a lot of wonderful and endearing qualities I'm sure, but to a certain (large) extent, he was a shill for the faculty. There was not much that the faculty wished for in the past decade or so that they did not receive. I found it particularly interesting this past year when Mr. Rothkopf retired that the only editorial and other glowing tributes that I saw were written by faculty members. I am assuming that Dr. Weiss is his own man and has introduced a new dynamic into these discussions of the future of athletics. Be that as it may, he is the new kid on the block and, even should he be so inclined, he is not going to remake this world overnight. The Colgate athletic hierarchy is apparently much further down the road to football scholarships than any of its Patriot League brethren. I believe that any attempts to push this in the foreseeable future will receive neither instant nor majority support from Easton. It may indeed come to pass, but it won't happen without some blood being spilled and it won't happen quickly.

[colgate13]

Sure

You asked for it! It's a long one...

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=33744&threadid=673372

[colgate13]

It may indeed come to pass, but it won't happen without some blood being spilled and it won't happen quickly.

Never said it would be overnight. I've given this a 4-5 year timeline and that was about a year ago, so I'd put it at 3-4 now - kind of in line with Pard4Life's 2009 guess.

Ultimately the question is would Lafayette obstruct Colgate's desires? They don't have to join in (as evidenced by their current choices). They just have to not get in the way!

Now, are there any sources at LC that can confirm the scholarship talk is just hoops? When it happened at Colgate, the other sports getting schollies took a lot by surprise. But I guess from a practical standpoint it makes sense. How can a school/athletic department tell its other sports that they are important too if basketball is the only one be given priority in terms of scholarships? Talk about disgruntled athletes!

The biggest inequity that LC faces is on the hardwood, but with American and Colgate giving scholarships in things like volleyball, field hockey, etc. - the issue is there across the board. Hopefully if the sane decision is made, it won't be piecemeal adn then have to be revisted when the rest of the league gives lacrosse and soccer scholarships too and LC is the lone holdout.

Time to bite the bullet - and I think Weiss is the man to do it. That's why I place him in 'the scholarship bloc'. It may take a few years, but I put him in the pro camp and looking to get it done!

[carney2]

Now, are there any sources at LC that can confirm the scholarship talk is just hoops?

Can't "confirm" much of anything, but Weiss has a group reporting to him that is studying, I believe, the entire athletic situation. The scholarship issues could include more than basketball. I spent some time in academia and one thing you can count on: no matter what the issue being investigated, the first question that is always asked in this environment is "What is everyone else doing?" Since some of the PL "everyone else" are giving aid for more than basketball, it is logical to assume that this will receive an airing.

[ngineer]

Unfortunately, with Lehigh's president a 'lame duck', retiring effective June 30, I'm not sure where LU is in the 'discussions' if , indeed, behind the scenes conversations are occuring on this. Farrington would certainly not engage in such exploratory discussions without the BOT's blessing, and I've heard nothing to date about the issue--not that I've made any inquiries, but I ask my other Brown and White bretheran if they've heard any rumors on this topic?

[chrebet87]

i heard somewhere (it might have been from 13) that not even all of colgate is on board for scholarships and some would rather use the money on academic scholarships. Does anyone have any info on this?

[TheValleyRaider]

i heard somewhere (it might have been from 13) that not even all of colgate is on board for scholarships and some would rather use the money on academic scholarships. Does anyone have any info on this?

If by all of Colgate, you mean professors, then I'm certain they aren't all in favor of it. Professors in general (not to stereotype or anything) are opposed to things like athletic scholarships, especially at a school of Colgate's caliber. Not that all, or even most are, but certainly there are some. If you're referring to students, again I'm sure not all are. There are a lot of people who are big fans of Colgate athletics as the "David vs. Goliath" scenario against the big schools with their "semi-pro" athletes. However, as far as the administration goes, they're in favor of anything that will lead to positive advertising for the university, including athletic success. If they weren't convinced of this before, they certainly are now after the 2003 run to Chattanooga, and Bucknell's press for the bball team's recent successes.

[DFW HOYA]

Does adding merit-based athletic scholarships under this scenario also mean the end of academic indexing of players?

[colgate13]

i heard somewhere (it might have been from 13) that not even all of colgate is on board for scholarships and some would rather use the money on academic scholarships. Does anyone have any info on this?

I'm sure there are those opposed to athletic scholarships, and I'm sure there are those at every institution that gives them. There will always be those types that do not think colleges should pay for athletes. To them I say, have fun in Division III (or the Ivy League).

As for using the money on academic scholarships, first - no new money was used to create Colgate's current athletic scholarships. It was purely a conversion of money already being spent on need-based aid to athletes. Then, there is very little if any support for academic scholarships from the Colgate administration. It's been looked at time and again, and it basically comes down to the fact that because of the ranking we occupy, merit scholarships will not be an effective tool to increase our ranking any more than it already is. In essence, you will not be able to buy students over Middlebury/Williams/Princeton/Harvard, etc. In the arena we are in, perceived academic standing (mostly by USN&WR ranking) is the single biggest factor in where a student will enroll, even in situations where there is a large price difference. Best example is Hamilton College vs. Colgate University. They offer merit aid to the tune of full and half scholarships - and yet we still beat them for students. I had a good friend in school that turned down a $15,000/year scholarship to come to Colgate over Hamilton.

So ultimately, I don't think you'll see academic scholarships at Colgate at any point in the near future, unless some high-powered alum makes a huge gift just for that purpose. And even then, the university will have to decide if they want to accept a gift under that premise which goes counter to what we know.

[colgate13]

Does adding merit-based athletic scholarships under this scenario also mean the end of academic indexing of players?

Nope. AI is not going anywhere. Lafayette does this now already. I believe their starting QB is a 'Marquis' scholar getting Merit aid beyond need. How's that for a competitive advantage against the rest of the league? :)

[carney2]

Nope. AI is not going anywhere. Lafayette does this now already. I believe their starting QB is a 'Marquis' scholar getting Merit aid beyond need. How's that for a competitive advantage against the rest of the league? :)

I'm not sure that I understand the question and/or the answer. Are you saying that these very similar peas-in-a-pod schools are not all doing very similar things here? It has always been my understanding that because of location and academic similarities, they are, in general, chasing the same pool of potential students - and student athletes.

[Bub]

Nope. AI is not going anywhere. Lafayette does this now already. I believe their starting QB is a 'Marquis' scholar getting Merit aid beyond need. How's that for a competitive advantage against the rest of the league? :)


As a side note, some members of the PFL, Drake for instance, provide academic merit aid beyond need, while others, such as Butler, do not. Drake was 10-2 two years ago, 6-4 last year. Bultler was 0-11 last year. Academic merit aid beyond need does allow for the recruiting of better student athletes.IMHO

[colgate13]

I'm not sure that I understand the question and/or the answer. Are you saying that these very similar peas-in-a-pod schools are not all doing very similar things here? It has always been my understanding that because of location and academic similarities, they are, in general, chasing the same pool of potential students - and student athletes.

Maybe I didn't understand the question as well!

The point I was trying to make was first that the Academic Index isn't going anywhere. We still have it in hoops with scholarships. I guess I then ran that thought on into plain old 'merit' scholarships, i.e. the Marquis scholar. Yes, they must be smart, but LC has an advantage right now over the rest of the PL (sans Bucknell now that they have merit for a select few but I think it's a smaller program than LC). Lafayette can give outright merit or merit over need-based to the right 'student-athlete'. Colgate can't do that. I think LC has a nice little advantage right here.

[LBPop]

Lafayette can give outright merit or merit over need-based to the right 'student-athlete'. Colgate can't do that. I think LC has a nice little advantage right here.

You are absolutely right. They use that fact in their recruiting efforts. Surprised us since we thought that was not permitted in PL football.

[Pard4Life]

Maybe I didn't understand the question as well!

The point I was trying to make was first that the Academic Index isn't going anywhere. We still have it in hoops with scholarships. I guess I then ran that thought on into plain old 'merit' scholarships, i.e. the Marquis scholar. Yes, they must be smart, but LC has an advantage right now over the rest of the PL (sans Bucknell now that they have merit for a select few but I think it's a smaller program than LC). Lafayette can give outright merit or merit over need-based to the right 'student-athlete'. Colgate can't do that. I think LC has a nice little advantage right here.

Yup, buying students has sure helped our image.

[LBPop]

Yup, buying students has sure helped our image.

xlolx

LC and Tavani have nothing to apologize for. We Hoya fans are jealous. :(