There's life after football at Northeastern and Boston University [Archive]

bonarae

October 3rd, 2010, 06:24 PM

I saw this on the other board, and the poster quoted far too many sections than the maximum number allowed. Read it for yourself.

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2010/10/03/yes_theres_life_after_football/?p1=News_links

From what I've read, Northeastern's president envisioned that they were better off without football. He even received calls and emails from other university presidents also considering dropping football. xnonono2x

Considering Boston University's life after football, they poured $285 million into other facilities and alumni giving has ironically gone up. Prospective students into BU (at the time of it dropping football in 1997) would've rather attended an opera than a football game.

If an ideal profile exists for schools best positioned to drop football and thrive afterward, BU and Northeastern exemplify it: Geographically far from football hotbeds like Florida, Texas, and California. Close to other entertainment options. Home to other sports teams with large, passionate followings — at BU and Northeastern, hockey. And places eager to bolster women’s sports in compliance with federal requirements.

DFW HOYA

October 3rd, 2010, 06:28 PM

What are they going to say, "well, we really #$@%&-ed it up, didn't we?"

Some PR types are like the Saddam-era Iraqi Information Minister. The administration building could be laying in ruins but they will note that there are sunny skies all over campus and some newspaper will print it.

blukeys

October 3rd, 2010, 06:50 PM

Considering Boston University's life after football, they poured $285 million into other facilities and alumni giving has ironically gone up. Prospective students into BU (at the time of it dropping football in 1997) would've rather attended an opera than a football game.

Yeah these guys sound like typical college students.

CopperCat

October 3rd, 2010, 06:56 PM

Yeah these guys sound like typical college students.

My sentiments exactly.

Lehigh Football Nation

October 3rd, 2010, 07:25 PM

Aoun recently penned an article describing the process for The Presidency, a magazine aimed at college presidents, because other institutions wanted a playbook for discontinuing football and saw Northeastern as a possible model. As Northeastern did, those schools spend between $3 million and $5 million annually on the sport for equipment, scholarships, travel, coaches’ salaries, and facilities and their teams generate little interest on campus or success on the field.

Oddly enough, my subscription to The Presidency was cancelled.

Unsurprisingly, this article is loaded with baloney arguments and phony numbers. Saying "student interest in intermural sports have soared 55%!" is something that is so ludicrous to claim - as if intermural sports and FCS football are, what, mutually exclusive?

Also unsurprisingly, this writer regurgitiates the "$3 million savings a year" lie as well - when even a tiny view of the figures shows that 2/3 of that number is financial aid, so unless you're going to replace those scholarship football players with rich WASPs that will elect to pay their entire way, 2/3rd of the "savings" is fictional.

In a nutshell, dropping football will probably make your student body richer, and whiter. But it won't save you $3 million a year.

Bogus Megapardus

October 3rd, 2010, 07:26 PM

BU athletic director Gary Strickler talked about drastically cutting costs, about creating a league with fewer scholarships, a cap on the number of coaches and travel no farther west than the Lehigh Valley.

xlolx I wonder what league he was referring to. Lehigh Valley?

Lehigh Football Nation

October 3rd, 2010, 07:30 PM

xlolx I wonder what league he was referring to. Lehigh Valley?

They should ask the commissioner of the MAAC what he thinks about such a league.

superman7515

October 3rd, 2010, 07:39 PM

DFW is completely correct. Boston and Northeastern are much better without football than they ever could have been with it. It's a fact. And there were no tanks in Baghdad. The elite Republican Guard held off the invading yankee dogs.

http://usawatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bagdad_bob_large3.gif

Bogus Megapardus

October 3rd, 2010, 07:50 PM

Hah! You could do a whole thread with this picture!

http://usawatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bagdad_bob_large3.gif

"Players much prefer a bowl system to a playoff like they have in FCS"

Go...gate

October 3rd, 2010, 07:59 PM

xlolx I wonder what league he was referring to. Lehigh Valley?

I don't believe BU ever approached the PL formally. If so, I am very confident they would have been admitted.

WestCoastAggie

October 3rd, 2010, 09:17 PM

Jackman

October 3rd, 2010, 09:45 PM

Aoun recently penned an article describing the process for The Presidency, a magazine aimed at college presidents, because other institutions wanted a playbook for discontinuing football and saw Northeastern as a possible model.

Here's the playbook:
1. Play in a tiny off-campus stadium hidden in a football-unfriendly residential neighborhood with no parking and tailgating whatsoever.
2. Use facilities that are so tiny and outdated that players are forced to change outdoors.
3. Publicly announce that you are studying whether to drop football, so that your recruiting will be irreparably damaged and the team loses every game while attendance and donations drop.
4. Drop football once everyone is exhausted and no longer cares.

Or you can use the Hofstra playbook:
1. Wait until someone else drops football, then immediately shout "me too!" and axe it in the dead of night. Then it's like it wasn't even your idea, everyone is doing it.

If an ideal profile exists for schools best positioned to drop football and thrive afterward, BU and Northeastern exemplify it: Geographically far from football hotbeds like Florida, Texas, and California. Close to other entertainment options. Home to other sports teams with large, passionate followings — at BU and Northeastern, hockey. And places eager to bolster women’s sports in compliance with federal requirements.

Right, because nothing bolsters women's sports like cutting 63 men's scholarships, which will have to be matched by cutting 63 women's scholarships. Northeastern's highly successful women's soccer coach quit in a fit of rage when he found out that none of the football money was coming his way. Can't do it, Title IX goes both ways dude.

MR. CHICKEN

October 3rd, 2010, 09:53 PM

DON'T FO'GET...'BOUT DUH SUICIDAL AD......WHO INSURED HUSKIE FAILURE......WHIFF HIS OUTTAH CONFERENCE SKEDULIN'.....ON TOP UH CAA MEAT-GRINDERAH.......BRAWK!

2009 OOC SKED...BOSTON COLLEGE...YOUNGSTOWN STATE...HOLY CROSS!

2008 OOC SKED...BALL STATE...GEORGIA SOUTHERN...SYRACUSE...&...UC DAVIS!

2007 OOC SKED...NORTHWESTERN...NORTHWESTERN STATE...UC DAVIS!

2006 OOC SKED...VIRGINIA TECH...HOLY CROSS...NORTH DAKOTA STATE

WHAT'D DEY DO WHIFF DUH FBS DUCATS.........STAGE MADAME BUTTERFLY.......&....PURCHASE...AMATI VIOLINS...FO' DUH CHAMBER ENSEMBLE?????

JMUNJ08

October 4th, 2010, 01:44 AM

Go...gate

October 4th, 2010, 02:14 AM

bonarae

October 4th, 2010, 04:02 AM

Here's the playbook:
1. Play in a tiny off-campus stadium hidden in a football-unfriendly residential neighborhood with no parking and tailgating whatsoever.
2. Use facilities that are so tiny and outdated that players are forced to change outdoors.
3. Publicly announce that you are studying whether to drop football, so that your recruiting will be irreparably damaged and the team loses every game while attendance and donations drop.
4. Drop football once everyone is exhausted and no longer cares.

Or you can use the Hofstra playbook:
1. Wait until someone else drops football, then immediately shout "me too!" and axe it in the dead of night. Then it's like it wasn't even your idea, everyone is doing it.

Right, because nothing bolsters women's sports like cutting 63 men's scholarships, which will have to be matched by cutting 63 women's scholarships. Northeastern's highly successful women's soccer coach quit in a fit of rage when he found out that none of the football money was coming his way. Can't do it, Title IX goes both ways dude.

Right at all points. We all wonder why the Ivy League survives without athletic scholarships of any kind, it's by our design. But the Presidents are at best selective on their policies on football (i.e. we don't participate in the playoffs, etc.) xnonono2x

What has happened to the California schools who have had all dropped football in the past 20+ years (e.g. Fullerton, Long Beach, Pacific)? They have been successful in other sports. They simply don't care about football anymore (though Fullerton is still studying about restarting it, IIRC.) Fullerton and Long Beach (aside from Wichita State, who also dropped football 20+ years ago) are successful in baseball. I don't know how Pacific is faring in their other sports. Northeastern is different from these California universities; Northeastern is private and the California universities (with the exception of Pacific and St. Mary's) are state.

DON'T FO'GET...'BOUT DUH SUICIDAL AD......WHO INSURED HUSKIE FAILURE......WHIFF HIS OUTTAH CONFERENCE SKEDULIN'.....ON TOP UH CAA MEAT-GRINDERAH.......BRAWK!

2009 OOC SKED...BOSTON COLLEGE...YOUNGSTOWN STATE...HOLY CROSS!

2008 OOC SKED...BALL STATE...GEORGIA SOUTHERN...SYRACUSE...&...UC DAVIS!

2007 OOC SKED...NORTHWESTERN...NORTHWESTERN STATE...UC DAVIS!

2006 OOC SKED...VIRGINIA TECH...HOLY CROSS...NORTH DAKOTA STATE

WHAT'D DEY DO WHIFF DUH FBS DUCATS.........STAGE MADAME BUTTERFLY.......&....PURCHASE...AMATI VIOLINS...FO' DUH CHAMBER ENSEMBLE?????

Oh no. That kind of schedule put pressure into their dropping football anyway. Reason #1 for the Ivies wanting an exception from the bowl-eligibility rule of FBS-FCS games: we have ran out of opponents in our pool, and Northeastern and Hofstra were in our pool.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 25th, 2014, 11:12 AM

BU athletic director Gary Strickler talked about drastically cutting costs, about creating a league with fewer scholarships, a cap on the number of coaches and travel no farther west than the Lehigh Valley.

Seeing this quote again, knowing what came next, takes on a whole new meaning today.

Franks Tanks

March 25th, 2014, 01:27 PM

The fact that BU and Northeastern had alumni giving go up after dropping football is a correlation not a causation. BU for example has grown by leaps and bounds since 1997 so of course donations will go up. It also does not account for people who stopped giving due to the decision, or never attended the university at all.

BU is sort of an odd duck. It is most similar to schools like NYU or maybe George Washington, which attract an artsy, dare I say hipster type student who crave the urban setting. Not exactly the crowd that likes to cheer for the ole alma mater (although they get excellent support for hockey). BU and NU are doing just fine without football, but that does not mean that football and the sense of community and school spirit games bring wouldn't add to an already rich experience.

ccd494

March 25th, 2014, 02:21 PM

If you are the kind of student who wants to tailgate on Saturday and drink beers and argue about what Lee Corso said on Gameday, you aren't going to fit in very well at BU, and you never were. Maybe a bit better at Northeastern, but not a whole lot (that is a school that has really transformed over the last 20 years). They are urban schools with kids who want to take advantage of the arts and culture of the city making up the majority of the student body. Heck, NU is co-op. At any given time half of its students are working full time somewhere else.

And if they want to take in a game, they go see the Sox at Fenway or the Bruins/Celtics at the garden, or watch BU/NU hockey.

Football isn't a natural fit at every school.

Go...gate

March 25th, 2014, 04:03 PM

BU football would have been a very good fit in the Patriot League.

bonarae

March 25th, 2014, 06:50 PM

BU is sort of an odd duck. It is most similar to schools like NYU or maybe George Washington, which attract an artsy, dare I say hipster type student who crave the urban setting. Not exactly the crowd that likes to cheer for the ole alma mater (although they get excellent support for hockey). BU and NU are doing just fine without football, but that does not mean that football and the sense of community and school spirit games bring wouldn't add to an already rich experience.

Well, urban setting? How about Chicago and St. Xavier (the only football-playing colleges in the city of Chicago)? Football thrives in both schools (although Chicago lost its opportunity to become a power with its dropping of football in 1938, at the peak of its run in the bowls and all-stars; they only came back in 1969, long after the Ivy League tightened its grip on its schools' football programs and college football was already becoming greedier by that time) with St. Xavier getting slightly more exposure with its winning NAIA program. (Few years ago, they defeated Carroll Montana in the playoffs or in the championship, I'm not sure now.) What about USC / UCLA? Both play in Los Angeles and have winning FBS programs, though both slipped a bit in the past few years.

For New York City, though, only Fordham, Wagner and Columbia play football, and interest has been quite level, even if Fordham paved the way for PL scholarships. Boston, not so much. The football-playing schools are all in the suburbs now (Harvard, MIT, Boston College.)

If you are the kind of student who wants to tailgate on Saturday and drink beers and argue about what Lee Corso said on Gameday, you aren't going to fit in very well at BU, and you never were. Maybe a bit better at Northeastern, but not a whole lot (that is a school that has really transformed over the last 20 years). They are urban schools with kids who want to take advantage of the arts and culture of the city making up the majority of the student body. Heck, NU is co-op. At any given time half of its students are working full time somewhere else.

And if they want to take in a game, they go see the Sox at Fenway or the Bruins/Celtics at the garden, or watch BU/NU hockey.

Football isn't a natural fit at every school.

How come the Southern schools who have had restarted football after so many years (e.g. Mercer, Stetson, Hendrix, Campbell) come to the conclusion that football was needed for those schools to grow? Xavier (Ohio), Gonzaga, Wichita State, the two Boston schools mentioned in this topic, Pacific (the last FBS to drop football), all of these have moved on from football and have no plans to restart it.

Franks Tanks

March 26th, 2014, 07:49 AM

Well, urban setting? How about Chicago and St. Xavier (the only football-playing colleges in the city of Chicago)? Football thrives in both schools (although Chicago lost its opportunity to become a power with its dropping of football in 1938, at the peak of its run in the bowls and all-stars; they only came back in 1969, long after the Ivy League tightened its grip on its schools' football programs and college football was already becoming greedier by that time) with St. Xavier getting slightly more exposure with its winning NAIA program. (Few years ago, they defeated Carroll Montana in the playoffs or in the championship, I'm not sure now.) What about USC / UCLA? Both play in Los Angeles and have winning FBS programs, though both slipped a bit in the past few years.

For New York City, though, only Fordham, Wagner and Columbia play football, and interest has been quite level, even if Fordham paved the way for PL scholarships. Boston, not so much. The football-playing schools are all in the suburbs now (Harvard, MIT, Boston College.)

How come the Southern schools who have had restarted football after so many years (e.g. Mercer, Stetson, Hendrix, Campbell) come to the conclusion that football was needed for those schools to grow? Xavier (Ohio), Gonzaga, Wichita State, the two Boston schools mentioned in this topic, Pacific (the last FBS to drop football), all of these have moved on from football and have no plans to restart it.

I didn't say urban schools can't have successful football programs. I wish BU and Northeastern were still around, hell BU football would solve many issues for the PL, but their students and the community was not very interested in supporting the program. Tha tdoesn't mean the program should be cut, but it gives the school a reason.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 26th, 2014, 08:49 AM

I didn't say urban schools can't have successful football programs. I wish BU and Northeastern were still around, hell BU football would solve many issues for the PL, but their students and the community was not very interested in supporting the program. That doesn't mean the program should be cut, but it gives the school a reason.

That lack of "interest" at BU was twenty or thirty years in the making, I think that bears repeating. BU didn't wake up one day and find out their students weren't interested in football. It took a lot of neglect and bad-mouthing by the president and his BOT to get to that point.

PAllen

March 26th, 2014, 10:00 AM

Boston, not so much. The football-playing schools are all in the suburbs now (Harvard, MIT, Boston College.)

If BU is considered an urban setting, how is Cambridge considered the suburbs? The river isn't THAT wide.

Bogus Megapardus

March 26th, 2014, 10:17 AM

FWIW, Harvard Stadium is located not in Cambridge but in the City of Boston (in the Allston neighborhood) - about a half mile from Nickerson Field.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 26th, 2014, 10:44 AM

Nickerson field, best I can find, had about 6,000 for their playoff game against Northern Iowa, and routinely had 7-8000 for more of their games as well. With a little care and feeding it could have probably been much more.

DFW HOYA

March 26th, 2014, 11:05 AM

What has happened to the California schools who have had all dropped football in the past 20+ years (e.g. Fullerton, Long Beach, Pacific)? They have been successful in other sports. They simply don't care about football anymore (though Fullerton is still studying about restarting it, IIRC.) Fullerton and Long Beach (aside from Wichita State, who also dropped football 20+ years ago) are successful in baseball. I don't know how Pacific is faring in their other sports. Northeastern is different from these California universities; Northeastern is private and the California universities (with the exception of Pacific and St. Mary's) are state.

Litigation between the California state university system and the National Organization for Women resulted in a consent degree called the CAL-NOW agreement, whereby state schools would adhere to a fixed 5% variance of gender balance by school on teams. Since many of the state schools skew female, the drop-off in football was severe: the Cal-State programs at Long Beach, Fullerton, Northridge, Santa Barbara, Chico (D-II) and Santa Barbara all eventually went away and there is no impetus to add at other Cal-State schools.

Ironically, California has one of the deepest junior college programs in America, but they were not under CA-NOW.

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/documents/CANowConsentDecree.pdf

Go Green

March 26th, 2014, 11:18 AM

Well, urban setting? What about USC / UCLA? Both play in Los Angeles and have winning FBS programs,

USC--ok.

But I don't think anyone considers UCLA to be in an "urban setting." It's more in the suburbs akin to Georgetown or Northwestern.

ccd494

March 26th, 2014, 11:40 AM

That lack of "interest" at BU was twenty or thirty years in the making, I think that bears repeating. BU didn't wake up one day and find out their students weren't interested in football. It took a lot of neglect and bad-mouthing by the president and his BOT to get to that point.

Bad-mouthing by a dean is usually the way to get kids to do something, as opposed to not do something. Regardless, I agree Silber wanted football gone, but it isn't like the average BU student gave much of a **** BEFORE football was gone. BU's ideal student is the kid who got straight A's in calculus in high school and only went to the Friday night football games because he also played the saxophone in the band. It isn't the kid who got straight A's and also played football- that kid is going to BC if he is sticking around Boston. (The kid who got all B's but whose dad is on the board at State Street is going to Harvard. The kid who you only saw in school when he was going to the robotics fair is at MIT.)

DFW HOYA

March 26th, 2014, 12:15 PM

But I don't think anyone considers UCLA to be in an "urban setting." It's more in the suburbs akin to Georgetown or Northwestern.

Georgetown is definitely not in the suburbs, Northwestern is.

Go Green

March 26th, 2014, 12:29 PM

Georgetown is definitely not in the suburbs, Northwestern is.

YMMV, but I consider Georgetown to be a lot closer to Northwestern than, say, Columbia when I think of the urban/suburban classification. Is American University urban, too?

(Never been to U. of Chicago, so I can't comment about them).

bonarae

March 27th, 2014, 10:21 AM

YMMV, but I consider Georgetown to be a lot closer to Northwestern than, say, Columbia when I think of the urban/suburban classification. Is American University urban, too?

(Never been to U. of Chicago, so I can't comment about them).

Yes, American is also located in D.C.

Just did distance search between SXU and UChicago. They are actually both on the South Side. St Xavier is closer to the suburbs though (to the southwest).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 10:34 AM

Yes, American is also located in D.C.

I can kind of see some sort of argument (although I disagree with it) that Georgetown is an "urban" campus becuase there are two or three office buildings about a half a mile away (on the waterfront), and some very upscale shopping and dining on M Street/Wisconsin Avenues.

But to call AU an "urban" campus is promoting form over substance. It's smack in the middle of a residential area. Nobody is ever going to call Tenleytown a metropolis.

Hammerhead

March 27th, 2014, 11:13 AM

Hah! You could do a whole thread with this picture!

http://usawatchdog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bagdad_bob_large3.gif

"Players much prefer a bowl system to a playoff like they have in FCS"

And other threads like this gem from years past.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/HIMCD/misinformationminister.jpg

PAllen

March 27th, 2014, 11:34 AM

I can kind of see some sort of argument (although I disagree with it) that Georgetown is an "urban" campus becuase there are two or three office buildings about a half a mile away (on the waterfront), and some very upscale shopping and dining on M Street/Wisconsin Avenues.

But to call AU an "urban" campus is promoting form over substance. It's smack in the middle of a residential area. Nobody is ever going to call Tenleytown a metropolis.

Calling anything in the district "suburban" is quite a stretch. There are many more than two or three office buildings within a few blocks of Georgetown's campus. As far as AU not being an urban campus, does being surrounded by residential neighborhoods prevent South Street in Philly from being "urban? As for DC, George Mason is suburban, College Park is still suburban, but ever more less so. Next we're gonna hear from the Ivy Leaguers that Hopkins is suburban, but Loyola is not.

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 12:15 PM

There are many more than two or three office buildings within a few blocks of Georgetown's campus. .

Other than those on the waterfront, what other "urban" office buildings are within a few blocks of Georgetown's campus? There's none until you hit Pennsylvania Avenue and by then you're almost at G.W. University (which I do consider an urban campus).

Are you thinking about the ones in Rosslyn, VA over the Key Bridge?

DFW HOYA

March 27th, 2014, 12:51 PM

PAllen

March 27th, 2014, 01:44 PM

By these definitions, are schools like Florida State, Washington, or Pittsburgh considered an urban campus?

Maybe the better definition is a "downtown" campus, where NYU, BU, GW, etc. are obvious choices.

By these definitions, I'm not even sure Columbia is an "urban" campus. So certainly not schools like MIT. Heck, by GG's definition, Fenway Park must be out in the sticks! Little did I know when I worked in the neighborhood that Rock Creek was the deviding line between urban DC and the suburbs. Honestly, those in the area that think so need to take a drive out I-66, or up through Bethesda and I270 sometime.

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 02:33 PM

By these definitions, I'm not even sure Columbia is an "urban" campus. So certainly not schools like MIT. Heck, by GG's definition, Fenway Park must be out in the sticks! Little did I know when I worked in the neighborhood that Rock Creek was the deviding line between urban DC and the suburbs. Honestly, those in the area that think so need to take a drive out I-66, or up through Bethesda and I270 sometime.

There may be a certain "I know it when I see it" aspect here. And I appreciate that lines may be difficult to draw.

But in any event, AU is just not an urban campus. It's just not.

If GU is an "urban" campus, then it's at the outer fringes of the definition. To me, GU is a lot closer in character to AU, Northwestern, and Villanova than the "downtown" schools that DFW listed. If you disagree, then I don't know what I can tell you. Ditto if you don't think that any areas within DC's borders are suburban neighborhoods. Wesley Heights, Spring Valley, and the Palisdades are about as suburban as they get.

Go Lehigh TU owl

March 27th, 2014, 03:05 PM

Other than those on the waterfront, what other "urban" office buildings are within a few blocks of Georgetown's campus? There's none until you hit Pennsylvania Avenue and by then you're almost at G.W. University (which I do consider an urban campus).

Are you thinking about the ones in Rosslyn, VA over the Key Bridge?

Is Temple not urban? We're surrounded by nothing but endless blocks of residential row homes. Yet, I'd argue we're one of the "most" urban universities in the country. Err, maybe ghetto?...lol

UNH Fanboi

March 27th, 2014, 03:26 PM

I know everyone in here, including myself, loves FCS football. But let's be honest, BU and Northeastern dropping football probably bad very little positive or negative impact on the schools. Not every school needs to have a football team.

UNH Fanboi

March 27th, 2014, 03:27 PM

There may be a certain "I know it when I see it" aspect here. And I appreciate that lines may be difficult to draw.

But in any event, AU is just not an urban campus. It's just not.

If GU is an "urban" campus, then it's at the outer fringes of the definition. To me, GU is a lot closer in character to AU, Northwestern, and Villanova than the "downtown" schools that DFW listed. If you disagree, then I don't know what I can tell you. Ditto if you don't think that any areas within DC's borders are suburban neighborhoods. Wesley Heights, Spring Valley, and the Palisdades are about as suburban as they get.

Urban is lot solely synonymous with large office buildings. Georgetown is definitely urban.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 27th, 2014, 03:30 PM

aceinthehole

March 27th, 2014, 03:36 PM

I can kind of see some sort of argument (although I disagree with it) that Georgetown is an "urban" campus becuase there are two or three office buildings about a half a mile away (on the waterfront), and some very upscale shopping and dining on M Street/Wisconsin Avenues.

But to call AU an "urban" campus is promoting form over substance. It's smack in the middle of a residential area. Nobody is ever going to call Tenleytown a metropolis.

It may be mostly residental, but it is still urban.

First, it's on the Metro and within the District proper. It is a great neighborhood (I live about a mile away) with million dollar homes and it is free from any real crime. But you are talking about a neighborhood with a much higher density than the suburbs, requiring residential parking permits, and excellent mass transit at your doorstep - if that's not urban I don't know what to say. "Urban" doesn't have to be a codeword for minority or poor neighborhoods either.

Bogus Megapardus

March 27th, 2014, 03:58 PM

It may be mostly residential, but it is still urban.

First, it's on the Metro and within the District proper. It is a great neighborhood (I live about a mile away) with million dollar homes and it is free from any real crime. But you are talking about a neighborhood with a much higher density than the suburbs, requiring residential parking permits, and excellent mass transit at your doorstep - if that's not urban I don't know what to say. "Urban" doesn't have to be a codeword for minority or poor neighborhoods either.

I've also been to AU several times for a variety of reasons. There's no mistaking that it's "in the city" even though its back yard really is an extension of Bethesda (albeit with smaller zoning attributes). AU's issue really is with campus size - it's very compact and there's no room to expand. They've done all they can; buying new property adjacent to the campus absolutely is out of the question. The heart of the campus is an academic quad that sort of mimics the Washington Mall. Then there's the Bender Arena and its associated parking garage-style facilities, which take up most of the remaining real estate. There are some high-rise dorms to the north but a lot of the students live in D.C apartments. The athletic fields behind the Bender Arena - consisting of an astroturf FH surface, a soccer field and a couple of tennis courts - are very limited and there's no practice field whatsoever. There are two or three rows (at best) of narrow, portable aluminum bleachers. The law school, some of the graduate schools and the extension programs are housed elsewhere in the city.

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 04:01 PM

It may be mostly residental, but it is still urban.

First, it's on the Metro and within the District proper. It is a great neighborhood (I live about a mile away) with million dollar homes and it is free from any real crime. But you are talking about a neighborhood with a much higher density than the suburbs, requiring residential parking permits, and excellent mass transit at your doorstep - if that's not urban I don't know what to say.

The metro goes out to GMU, too.

In any event, USN&WR does not agree with you.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/american-university-1434

American University is a private institution that was founded in 1893. It has a total undergraduate enrollment of 7,299, its setting is suburban, and the campus size is 84 acres.

Welcome to the suburbs, friend! :)

Admittedly, USN&WR classifies GU as "urban." I don't agree with that. So we're even.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 27th, 2014, 04:29 PM

I've also been to AU several times for a variety of reasons. There's no mistaking that it's "in the city" even though its back yard really is an extension of Bethesda (albeit with smaller zoning attributes). AU's issue really is with campus size - it's very compact and there's no room to expand. They've done all they can; buying new property adjacent to the campus absolutely is out of the question. The heart of the campus is an academic quad that sort of mimics the Washington Mall. Then there's the Bender Arena and its associated parking garage-style facilities, which take up most of the remaining real estate. There are some high-rise dorms to the north but a lot of the students live in D.C apartments. The athletic fields behind the Bender Arena - consisting of an astroturf FH surface, a soccer field and a couple of tennis courts - are very limited and there's no practice field whatsoever. There are two or three rows (at best) of narrow, portable aluminum bleachers. The law school, some of the graduate schools and the extension programs are housed elsewhere in the city.

I remember a while ago coming up with an April Fool's post that American was going to start a football program. Anyone aware of their campus can see how it's a physical impossibility!

Sader87

March 27th, 2014, 04:46 PM

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 05:48 PM

Interesting discussion on urban vs downtown campus settings...I think there is a distinction. While HC is technically located in an urban environment, it is very much removed from being a part of the Worcester fabric overall...Clark and WPI are much more in and about Worcester.

FWIW, USN&WR says Holy Cross is suburban.

I fully acknowledge that the distinctions may be tough to draw, and it probably just comes down to the fabric of the campus' neighborhood rather than whether or not it has characteristics X, Y, & Z.

As for GU, my biases may be from my law school experience. I attended law school in DC at a "downtown" campus. When I visited GU's main campus, it just FELT like I was leaving the "city." Most of my classmates felt the same way. GU's main campus was just a different world.

PAllen

March 27th, 2014, 06:15 PM

There may be a certain "I know it when I see it" aspect here. And I appreciate that lines may be difficult to draw.

But in any event, AU is just not an urban campus. It's just not.

If GU is an "urban" campus, then it's at the outer fringes of the definition. To me, GU is a lot closer in character to AU, Northwestern, and Villanova than the "downtown" schools that DFW listed. If you disagree, then I don't know what I can tell you. Ditto if you don't think that any areas within DC's borders are suburban neighborhoods. Wesley Heights, Spring Valley, and the Palisdades are about as suburban as they get.

Like I said, take a trip outside the beltway once in a while. Pick a direction and keep driving until you get to rural. Just because there are occasional trees, doesn't make it suburban.

Go Green

March 27th, 2014, 06:39 PM

Like I said, take a trip outside the beltway once in a while. Pick a direction and keep driving until you get to rural. Just because there are occasional trees, doesn't make it suburban.

Come back with something other than nonsequiturs, and I'll be happy to continue the conversation.

Go...gate

March 27th, 2014, 06:46 PM

I remember a while ago coming up with an April Fool's post that American was going to start a football program. Anyone aware of their campus can see how it's a physical impossibility!

AU will make a deal to use the MSF at Georgetown and the FIOS TV Network.... :D

DFW HOYA

March 28th, 2014, 07:29 AM

I remember a while ago coming up with an April Fool's post that American was going to start a football program. Anyone aware of their campus can see how it's a physical impossibility!

American has an on-campus field, so it's not physically impossible.

And FWIW, AU had football a team in the 1970's, albeit forgotten today:

http://bit.ly/O4lWYG

Go Green

March 28th, 2014, 08:11 AM

American has an on-campus field, so it's not physically impossible.

And FWIW, AU had football a team in the 1970's, albeit forgotten today:

http://bit.ly/O4lWYG

I've seen this shirt a few times. http://www.bkstr.com/ProductDisplay/10001-120252-10061-38869876-1?demoKey=d

:)

Laker

March 30th, 2014, 11:50 AM

I've seen this shirt a few times. http://www.bkstr.com/ProductDisplay/10001-120252-10061-38869876-1?demoKey=d

:)

Reminds me of when I visited the Vermont bookstore years ago:
http://uvmbookstore.uvm.edu/outerweb/product_images/11949497l.jpg

aceinthehole

March 30th, 2014, 01:24 PM

I've also been to AU several times for a variety of reasons. There's no mistaking that it's "in the city" even though its back yard really is an extension of Bethesda (albeit with smaller zoning attributes). AU's issue really is with campus s Iize - it's very compact and there's no room to expand. They've done all they can; buying new property adjacent to the campus absolutely is out of the question. The heart of the campus is an academic quad that sort of mimics the Washington Mall. Then there's the Bender Arena and its associated parking garage-style facilities, which take up most of the remaining real estate. There are some high-rise dorms to the north but a lot of the students live in D.C apartments. The athletic fields behind the Bender Arena - consisting of an astroturf FH surface, a soccer field and a couple of tennis courts - are very limited and there's no practice field whatsoever. There are two or three rows (at best) of narrow, portable aluminum bleachers. The law school, some of the graduate schools and the extension programs are housed elsewhere in the city.

True in many respects. FYI - They are building up the lot the have right on Tenley Circle. Not sure, but I think the may be moving the law school from Mass Ave to this location.

Also, they moved the studio for 88.5 NPR to a building on Conn Ave near the Van Ness metro. The put up an American University sign above the entrance but I think that is only for their affiliation with NPR and is not an expansion of academic facilities.

andy7171

April 1st, 2014, 10:04 AM

I remember a while ago coming up with an April Fool's post that American was going to start a football program. Anyone aware of their campus can see how it's a physical impossibility!

American and Catholic. I remember. Is Towson a Urban or Suburban school? LOL

PAllen

April 1st, 2014, 01:02 PM

American and Catholic. I remember. Is Towson a Urban or Suburban school? LOL

Catholic has a D-III FB team. Towson = suburban :)

Tribal

April 3rd, 2014, 07:38 PM

If you attended a game at Northeastern, you will agree with me when I say we are ALL better off that NU no longer plays football.

DFW HOYA

April 3rd, 2014, 08:35 PM

If you attended a game at Northeastern, you will agree with me when I say we are ALL better off that NU no longer plays football.

It's never better when a old-line Eastern team gives up football. We need more Eastern teams, not fewer.

That means you, Hofstra...and let's add some more names to the mix: Vermont, GW, George Mason, LaSalle, the wayward MAAC schools, and the underrated football tradition at Maryland-Eastern Shore.

Eastern football shouldn't stop at the Pennsylvania border.

Tribal

April 3rd, 2014, 09:17 PM

GMU will never offer D-1 football...never. Their admin and students seemingly hate football and show zero support for anything other than men's basketball. GW is over that experiment as well--they had football way back. Football doesn't stop north of PA (Cuse, BC, Rutgers) but there isn't much north of PA save 5 or 6 FCS programs. Basketball, lacrosse and, to a certain extent, hockey rule the NE.

Sader87

April 3rd, 2014, 10:51 PM

I think the Northeast (New England and NY/NJ) has been and could continue to be very good FCS country.

The Ivies obviously, who basically invented college football. Holy Cross and Colgate have long storied traditions in football. The CAA schools like UNH, Maine and URI as well as newcomers like Stony Brook and Albany as well as the NEC schools.

Yes, BU, NU and Hofstra have dropped football recently, but I don't think they represent a trend that college football in the Northeast is dying. More of a reflection on those three schools....two of which (NU and Hofstra) were really only D1 for a short period of time.

bonarae

April 4th, 2014, 05:38 AM

It's never better when a old-line Eastern team gives up football. We need more Eastern teams, not fewer.

That means you, Hofstra...and let's add some more names to the mix: Vermont, GW, George Mason, LaSalle, the wayward MAAC schools, and the underrated football tradition at Maryland-Eastern Shore.

Eastern football shouldn't stop at the Pennsylvania border.

Well, all regions but the Northeast have more than three new college football teams (NCAA, NAIA) who started playing in the past 5 years. New Haven? Yeah, they restarted football a la ETSU (an inept administration kicked it, a new administration was determined to bring it back and did it successfully unlike the Cal State's, who stopped due to budget strictures and lack of interest...)

Unfortunately in the Northeast, CFB is all but a dying sport... xsmhx

I think the Northeast (New England and NY/NJ) has been and could continue to be very good FCS country.

The Ivies obviously, who basically invented college football. Holy Cross and Colgate have long storied traditions in football. The CAA schools like UNH, Maine and URI as well as newcomers like Stony Brook and Albany as well as the NEC schools.

Yes, BU, NU and Hofstra have dropped football recently, but I don't think they represent a trend that college football in the Northeast is dying. More of a reflection on those three schools....two of which (NU and Hofstra) were really only D1 for a short period of time.

But it's already at the point where the FCS programs in that region (and in D-III/D-II football for that matter as well) are already content by themselves. The growth of CFB in the region is already stagnant...

DFW HOYA

April 4th, 2014, 07:53 AM

GMU will never offer D-1 football...never. Their admin and students seemingly hate football and show zero support for anything other than men's basketball.

GW dropped football while playing in 56,692 seat RFK Stadium as a Southern Conference school--a tough place to sell tickets in 1966, much less 2014. But like BU in the post-Silber era, there's no financial incentive to add I-AA football, and the current incarnation of the A-10 is generally agnostic about the topic.

Conferences needs push the issue. Why doesn't the Patriot lean on BU and Loyola to get a football program in the pipeline? At the very least, it would strengthen its hand versus the need for associate membership.

Lehigh Football Nation

April 4th, 2014, 09:48 AM

Conferences needs push the issue. Why doesn't the Patriot lean on BU and Loyola to get a football program in the pipeline? At the very least, it would strengthen its hand versus the need for associate membership.

Or Patriot League fans? ;)

What's especially frustrating about BU and Loyola is that they already have stadiums that could be used for Patriot League-level football. American, sure, that could be an issue, but not BU, where Nickerson field hosted the Boston Patriots of the AFL.

BU's admin is not interested in adding football, incidentally, and it seems unlikely that the students (based on BU's current profile) will be clamoring for the sport anytime soon. The only way BU could possibly be convinced to add football is if they're interested in making their student body more middle-class and more male. Same with Loyola, I think.

Sader87

April 4th, 2014, 09:59 AM

Well, all regions but the Northeast have more than three new college football teams (NCAA, NAIA) who started playing in the past 5 years. New Haven? Yeah, they restarted football a la ETSU (an inept administration kicked it, a new administration was determined to bring it back and did it successfully unlike the Cal State's, who stopped due to budget strictures and lack of interest...)

Unfortunately in the Northeast, CFB is all but a dying sport... xsmhx

But it's already at the point where the FCS programs in that region (and in D-III/D-II football for that matter as well) are already content by themselves. The growth of CFB in the region is already stagnant...

I would respectfully disagree. While there aren't a lot (or any?) start up programs ala ODU, Charlotte etc a lot of programs in the Northeast have moved up divisions to play at the FCS level in the last 10-25 years. The Patriot League has voted to return scholarships for football (return for Holy Cross anyway) which I would classify as anything but stagnant.

Not to throw it back at you or Harvard, but I think a lot of that insular/stagnant feeling you have vis a vis Northeast football is more an Ivy problem than it is a regional one.

AppChicago

April 4th, 2014, 10:34 AM

UAalum72

April 4th, 2014, 12:02 PM

Football doesn't stop north of PA (Cuse, BC, Rutgers) but there isn't much north of PA save 5 or 6 FCS programs. Basketball, lacrosse and, to a certain extent, hockey rule the NE.5 or 6? Actually 21 FCS programs and seven FBS. And for all the cachet that lacrosse and hockey have, I doubt there are many (if any) schools that have both where lax attendance is higher than football.

Well, all regions but the Northeast have more than three new college football teams (NCAA, NAIA) who started playing in the past 5 years. New Haven? Yeah, they restarted football a la ETSU (an inept administration kicked it, a new administration was determined to bring it back and did it successfully unlike the Cal State's, who stopped due to budget strictures and lack of interest...)

Alfred State(formerly junior college) and Castleton State since 2009, but a few others in the last fifteen years.

But it's already at the point where the FCS programs in that region (and in D-III/D-II football for that matter as well) are already content by themselves. The growth of CFB in the region is already stagnant...But the region as a whole, having urbanized first and established hundreds of small private colleges, isn't growing as fast as the rest of the country. Football just goes along with that.
It's like when I read George Will comparing Fort Myers with NYC, saying FM population had grown 500% in twenty years while NYC was only up 5% - setting up a comparison which New York City could win only by increasing its population to 35 million.