Patriot League Rumblings...?

[crusader11]

It is the dog days of summer and Patriot League talk has greatly subsided. Any news from each school? A word on how summer workouts are going?

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs?

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse?

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them?

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh?

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships?

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell?

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year?

There are endless amounts of questions for each team, but there are just several to get some conversation going. Discuss.....

[carney2]

Too much information. I'll begin the discussion by more or less addressing the first question. Here are the carney odds for winning the Patiriot League this year:

Colgate 30% Eachus/Sullivan = best offensive punch in PL; defense continues mediocre

Lafayette 25% Need a QB

Lehigh 25% Need consistency on offense

Holy Cross 15% No Randolph = ?

Bucknell 5% New coach; same talent

Georgetown 0% Will have to make their bones in cupcake OOC schedule

If Fordham were eligible, I'd have them at about the same odds as Holy Cross, and would have to shuffle the others, but the rankings wouldn't change.

[crusader11]

Too much information. I'll begin the discussion by more or less addressing the first question. Here are the carney odds for winning the Patiriot League this year:

Colgate 30%

Lafayette 25%

Lehigh 25%

Holy Cross 15%

Bucknell 5%

Georgetown 0%

If Fordham were eligible, I'd have them at about the same odds as Holy Cross, and would have to shuffle the others, but the rankings wouldn't change.

Yes, it is a lot of info, but I just want to get the discussion going again. It has been a while without any PL banter. I pretty much agree with those rankings, but I think HC will surprise you and other people. While Dom is obviously a colossal loss who cannot be replaced by anyone, there are many pieces to the puzzle returning. Plus, the defense should be very good. In fact, the defense may be the staple of the team this year.

[smallcollegefbfan]

It is the dog days of summer and Patriot League talk has greatly subsided. Any news from each school? A word on how summer workouts are going?

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs?

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse?

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them?

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh?

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships?

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell?

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year?

There are endless amounts of questions for each team, but there are just several to get some conversation going. Discuss.....

I tell you one thing I am curious about. Are Patriot League fans, SIDs, media, etc. upset that nobody from the league was on the Payton or Buchanan Watch Lists or did they expect not to have anyone?

[Go...gate]

I think that the scholarship quandary is really hurting the perception of the PL. That can be good, because we are increasingly underestimated because we still have some strong programs. But this simply cannot continue over time.

[DFW HOYA]

It is the dog days of summer and Patriot League talk has greatly subsided. Any news from each school? A word on how summer workouts are going?

Georgetown has posted no articles on any summer activities. Then again, it didn't publish a spring roster, either.

To your other questions:

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs? Small. Not having Raldolph will hurt.

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse? Almost none. The Orangemen won't let it happen.

Who will be throwing and carrying the ball for Lafayette? Tavani may need a platoon at QB, but he'll get it done.

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh? Probably, but the Engineer fans won't accept less than 7 wins regardless.

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships? About the same as it is now--the decision will come from Lehigh's vote.

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell? Significant improvement.

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year? Realistically, they need to win at least two in the league this year. Kevin Kelly's record (5-38, 1-22 PL) is probably trailing only Indiana State's Trent Miles (1-22, 1-16 MVC) at the bottom of the subdivision and with a new athletic director in place, this team has to show some visible progress in the W/L column. And one of those two PL wins has to come on or before September 26.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scholarships. There, I said it. xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

And one of those two PL wins has to come on or before September 26.

. . . which means at Lafayette (9/11) or vs. Holy Cross (9/25). Does Georgetown turnn into a pumpkin the next day?

[Go...gate]

Scholarships. There, I said it. xlolx

You said it, Ace.

[ngineer]

I think the PL has a growing perception problem because of the lack of scholarships, because I do think there are some players in this league that should or, hopefully, will be on the list as the season unfolds.

[ngineer]

Georgetown has posted no articles on any summer activities. Then again, it didn't publish a spring roster, either.

To your other questions:

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs? Small. Not having Raldolph will hurt.

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse? Almost none. The Orangemen won't let it happen.

Who will be throwing and carrying the ball for Lafayette? Tavani may need a platoon at QB, but he'll get it done.

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh? Probably, but the Engineer fans won't accept less than 7 wins regardless.

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships? About the same as it is now--the decision will come from Lehigh's vote.

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell? Significant improvement.

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year? Realistically, they need to win at least two in the league this year. Kevin Kelly's record (5-38, 1-22 PL) is probably trailing only Indiana State's Trent Miles (1-22, 1-16 MVC) at the bottom of the subdivision and with a new athletic director in place, this team has to show some visible progress in the W/L column. And one of those two PL wins has to come on or before September 26.

What's so important about that date?

[TheValleyRaider]

Not 100% sure how to answer the other questions right now, but I think it is highly unlikely to see the Raiders beat Syracuse

Unless the defense is more than vastly improved over their showings from the last few seasons, we won't be able to hold down Syracuse for too long. Their currently lack of a trustworthy QB may be our only saving grace, though that's only the perspective in July

As much as I like Sullivan and Eachus, and am excited to see them in action against the PL and a top FCS team like Furman, it's not a great matchup against Syracuse. I'm not convinced we'll get enough traction to control the clock or be able to keep up if the game becomes a shoot-out

I can promise you this: if we win, I will lord it over my Orange brother forever :D

HOODOO!

[carney2]

I tell you one thing I am curious about. Are Patriot League fans, SIDs, media, etc. upset that nobody from the league was on the Payton or Buchanan Watch Lists or did they expect not to have anyone?

No expectations. With Randolph and Skelton gone, Colgate's Eachus is probably the top offensive prospect, and as a junior he might be considered a year away. No defenders that I can think of who would be raising these kinds of expectations. This year's preseason offensive player of the year will not be in the Dominic Randolph class, and the preseason defensive player of the year will not be considered an Andy Romans.

[carney2]

OK, answers to the questions:

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs? Poor

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse? Approaching nil.

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them?

Throwing will be either senior Marc Quilling or junior Ryan O'Neil, brother of Dominic Randolph's predecessor at Holy Cross. No obvious front runner at the moment. The key to the QB situation for the Pards may very well be the incredible 4-man receiving rotation. They will either be so good as to push the QB over the top, or will end up being a waste of a marveloous resource. Offensive coordinator/QB coach Mickey Fein may be the most important man on this team.

Carrying the ball will be slightly undersized, but very promising junior, Jerome Rudolph. Primary backup at the moment is sophomore Vaughn Hebron whose father of the same name played a few years in the NFL. There is hope in Leopardland that freshman Patrick Mputu will also be a contributor.

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh? I agree with most of the Squawkers who say that he has had many of the pieces for some time, but has been unable to put them together. The problems continue to be on offense where the "pieces" just may not be as good as the faithful believe they are. This once a year Squawk hater is impressed with neither the incumbent starting QB nor the running game. The OL should be good enough however to cover a lot of the ineptitude that may occur behind them.

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships? Fordham is the discussion on scholarships. Most feel that the Rams expect an answer to their challenge this year.

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell? A much needed change in offensive philosophy and a change in attitude. It will probably result in an improved record and an unexpected win or two. It will not result in a challenge for the top of the Patriot League.

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year? Tell me who they might beat. ... Well? ... Exactly. Their hope for Ws comes from the likes of Davidson, Wagner, Sacred Heart and Marist.

[Sader87]

A better question: does anyone (outside of the Lehigh Valley area) even care about Patriot League football? They don't in Massachusetts.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

A better question: does anyone (outside of the Lehigh Valley area) even care about Patriot League football? They don't in Massachusetts.

For the most part, the state of Massachusetts could careless about college athletics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No expectations. With Randolph and Skelton gone, Colgate's Eachus is probably the top offensive prospect, and as a junior he might be considered a year away. No defenders that I can think of who would be raising these kinds of expectations. This year's preseason offensive player of the year will not be in the Dominic Randolph class, and the preseason defensive player of the year will not be considered an Andy Romans.

I have learned the never underestimate the abilities of a certain QB named Sullivan. Here's a fearless prediction: he'll be on the Payton Watchlist by mid-October.

Having said that, however, it's awful difficult to see any other candidates for the Payton coming out of the PL at this point. Of course, HC, LC, BU and Fordham are all breaking in new quarterbacks, and Lehigh technically doesn't know who the starter will be against Drake. In addition, our best RB is clearly Eachus and he's clearly a junior. After that, who else?

[Sader87]

Untrue...the PL is a fine association of like-minded institutions etc. etc. but it has absolutely gutted HC football. HC regularly drew in the 15,000 range (and often had crowds over 20,000 in the 1980's), played FBS schools on a regular basis, had a player actually at the Heisman selection show etc. etc etc. before the PL took full hold. Once HC went non-scholarship it lost a lot of the alumni and nearly all of its non-alumni fan base.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Untrue...the PL is a fine association of like-minded institutions etc. etc. but it has absolutely gutted HC football. HC regularly drew in the 15,000 range (and often had crowds over 20,000 in the 1980's), played FBS schools on a regular basis, had a player actually at the Heisman selection show etc. etc etc. before the PL took full hold. Once HC went non-scholarship it lost a lot of the alumni and nearly all of its non-alumni fan base.

We've heard you state this 100x. HC was a terrible 1-A program, had a great 10 year run and that about somes it up. I still contest HC's run in the late 80's early 90's is marginally better than Lehigh's run a decade later. Lockbaum is really the only difference imo. Obviously, HC was not playoff eligible.

[Sader87]

Whatever...the #'s don't lie....HC games against UMass,Yale, Colgate, BC etc. at Fitton in the 70's and 80's were regularly in the 15-25,000 range (better than Temple then btw)...now games against PL foes are very lucky to approach 10,000.

I fully realize this was our own undoing but there's a sizeable audience of HC football that has tuned out post PL.

[crusader11]

Untrue...the PL is a fine association of like-minded institutions etc. etc. but it has absolutely gutted HC football. HC regularly drew in the 15,000 range (and often had crowds over 20,000 in the 1980's), played FBS schools on a regular basis, had a player actually at the Heisman selection show etc. etc etc. before the PL took full hold. Once HC went non-scholarship it lost a lot of the alumni and nearly all of its non-alumni fan base.

Broken record.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Whatever...the #'s don't lie....HC games against UMass,Yale, Colgate, BC etc. at Fitton in the 70's and 80's were regularly in the 15-25,000 range (better than Temple then btw)...now games against PL foes are very lucky to approach 10,000.

I fully realize this was our own undoing but there's a sizeable audience of HC football that has tuned out post PL.

Holy Cross decided to cut back it's football program and that's something you have to live with. Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette have made the move to the PL work. Sucks for you that HC has only recently figured it out. However, that is your alma mater and if you don't like it you're pretty much SOL.

I'll give you that the pre-playoff PL was pretty weak. Outside of the league contests, the games meant very little. However, since the the schools have become playoff eligible that conference has a solid presence in the FCS world. Even with its recent struggles Lehigh still has respect around the FCS world, as does Colgate and Lafayette. It's HC's fault they fell asleep in the early 90's and didn't wake up until the mid 2000's. Had HC's administration and alumni/fans continued to support the program like Lehigh Colgate have, and recently Lafayette, perhaps more people would care about Crusader football.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross decided to cut back it's football program and that's something you have to live with. Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette have made the move to the PL work. Sucks for you that HC has only recently figured it out. However, that is your alma mater and if you don't like it you're pretty much SOL.

I'll give you that the pre-playoff PL was pretty weak. Outside of the league contests, the games meant very little. However, since the the schools have become playoff eligible that conference has a solid presence in the FCS world. Even with its recent struggles Lehigh still has respect around the FCS world, as does Colgate and Lafayette. It's HC's fault they fell asleep in the early 90's and didn't wake up until the mid 2000's. Had HC's administration and alumni/fans continued to support the program like Lehigh Colgate have, and recently Lafayette, perhaps more people would care about Crusader football.

This is baloney...Colgate is losing to Stony Brook, Lehigh is playing Drake this year, I repeat Drake (fwiw we played Sacred Heart this past year)....the PL is turning into a complete also-ran in FCS football. NO ONE CARES.

With scholarships (and the concommitant occasional FBS game) the PL may be OK...as it currently stands, it's little better than very good D3 football.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This is baloney...Colgate is losing to Stony Brook, Lehigh is playing Drake this year, I repeat Drake (fwiw we played Sacred Heart this past year)....the PL is turning into a complete also-ran in FCS football. NO ONE CARES.

With scholarships (and the concommitant occasional FBS game) the PL may be OK...as it currently stands, it's little better than very good D3 football.

LOL, you're nutts.......

Want to guess the attendance at Goodman when #1 Villanova travels to Bethlehem?
I bet Lehigh brings a strong contigent to Durham when the 'Hawks take on a Top #15 UNH team.

Colgate is playing against Syracuse at the dome. This is awesome if you're a 'Gate fan. They also play Furman this year.

Please, you can't be this dumb....

[Sader87]

if you don't think both HC and Colgate have taken a MAJOR step backwards in football since 1987 you're the one that's dumb my friend.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

if you don't think both HC and Colgate have taken a MAJOR step backwards in football since 1987 you're the one that's dumb my friend.

Relative to what? Lockbaum brought attention to HC in the 80's. If it wasn't for him they would have been Georgia Southern minus the trophies.

How was Colgate much different in the 80's from now? They made it to the playoffs in the early 80's, had Kenny Gamble and played a slighly better schedule.
Since, they made it to the national title game, produced a payton award winner and are on a decade plus run of success under Dick Biddle.

I'm only stating the facts.

[Sader87]

First of all, there was winning football at HC before Gordie...HC won the Lambert Cup a couple of times in the 80's before Gordie's arrival at Mt St James. Secondly, Colgate was much stronger year in, year out (how they did it w/out scholarships remains a mystery to many at HC) in the 80's than they are now.

As I've stated repeatedly, the PL w/ scholarships would be good but without them we are a very marginal league. In the mid/late 80's both HC and Colgate were playing (and occasionally beating) FBS schools like Army, Duke and BC...in this decade they are both playing and losing to schools like Stony Brook, Duquense etc.

[DFW HOYA]

As I've stated repeatedly, the PL w/ scholarships would be good but without them we are a very marginal league. In the mid/late 80's both HC and Colgate were playing (and occasionally beating) FBS schools like Army, Duke and BC...in this decade they are both playing and losing to schools like Stony Brook, Duquense etc.

This point about scholarships--it's not going to bring back the good old days for HC in that it's essentially redistributing funds among the same admissions pool anyway. The Gordie Lockbaum of 2012 isn't looking to a PL school when Villanova or Elon will take him on talent and not on some alchemy of GPA and SAT that is unrecognizable to a recruit.

That's not to say scholarships are a bad thing, but when the PL added basketball scholarships, it didn't change the dynamics or perception of the league--Holy Cross hasn't become Gonzaga, Bucknell is no Butler, and impact recruits continue to look elsewhere. The next Cole Aldrich (Kansas) or Tim Abromaitis (Notre Dame) still isn't walking through that door.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Untrue...the PL is a fine association of like-minded institutions etc. etc. but it has absolutely gutted HC football. HC regularly drew in the 15,000 range (and often had crowds over 20,000 in the 1980's), played FBS schools on a regular basis, had a player actually at the Heisman selection show etc. etc etc. before the PL took full hold. Once HC went non-scholarship it lost a lot of the alumni and nearly all of its non-alumni fan base.

Sader87, Lafayette three time has been college football's national champion, but that was a long time ago, just as were HC's glory days. Get over it. I see no shame in HC deciding to remain a college and not a football factory at the time. And besides, you weren't that good - if you recall, Lafayette beat the "glory-years" HC 28-20 the year Lockbaum graduated - its only other loss that season was to Army.

[Fordham]

This point about scholarships--it's not going to bring back the good old days for HC in that it's essentially redistributing funds among the same admissions pool anyway. The Gordie Lockbaum of 2012 isn't looking to a PL school when Villanova or Elon will take him on talent and not on some alchemy of GPA and SAT that is unrecognizable to a recruit.

That's not to say scholarships are a bad thing, but when the PL added basketball scholarships, it didn't change the dynamics or perception of the league--Holy Cross hasn't become Gonzaga, Bucknell is no Butler, and impact recruits continue to look elsewhere. The next Cole Aldrich (Kansas) or Tim Abromaitis (Notre Dame) still isn't walking through that door. I'm in agreement 100% with this. Scholarships imo will help us incrementally improve and, I believe, get us back near a level of competitiveness we had in the late 90's/early 2000's where (excepting the brilliant Colgate run which was much more of an anomaly imo) we consistently fielded teams that could compete with the top tier in FCS. Even though we might not win the majority of those games, we would still be competitive and win a good enough number to make us happy again ... and we should be a legitimate threat to once again get a playoff win or two in any given year. To expect us to vault anywhere near the CAA, Southern, Missouri Valley's as an FCS elite simply because of scholarships is absurd imo, at least as long as the AI is in place.

Further, we won't consistently be winning the recruiting battles against excellent schools like 'Nova, Richmond, W&M, Delaware, et. al. who have great support, great football and great facilities. What we can hope for imo is to do to the Ivies on occassion what the NEC has been doing to us. Get a kid who's parents might have to write a check to an Ivy to consider a free ride to a great but not-as-prestigious school. We also should be able to get (imo) those talented kids who we've been losing to the NEC to consider us now that we can offer scholarships. Finally, we may get a few more FBS transfers than we have previously, even though I don't think we'll ever turn into any type of transfer-factory. That's scholarships in a nutshell imo. Stopping the league-wide slide into oblivion while increasing the level of play enough for us to have fun and be competitive again.

If that's the case, though, while it might hurt Georgetown a bit by having the league move to a 'scholarships-at-whatever-level-you-choose', it certainly shouldn't be the deathknell of the Georgetown's participation in the league. Scholarships, as you seem to state above, isn't going to be a game-changer.

[Fordham]

Here's my shot at the ?'s in play.

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs? Low imo. I actually expect this will be a rough year in Worcester. That said, it really is a chance for Gilmore to cement himself into the Biddle/Tavani category as an elite PL coach if they are squarely in the mix for the title this year. That will put him in position to land a new job or get a job-for-life deal ala Biddle & Tavani imo. Important year for him imo. Not important as in 'his job is on the line' but important as in being a springboard for his future.

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse? Extremely low

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them? I'll rely upon the LC fans to answer the last question but I will say that in any year where there is not a clear cut favorite you should always bet on LC & CU to be in the title hunt (even if they get off to slow starts).

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh? I'm stunned that he's still there after they let Lembo go for dramatically better results. That said, he certainly has the pieces and with Cecchini back he might finally have the coaching to get there. I'd say that this is his last shot but overall the importance of winning the last game on the schedule can't be overstated. If he wins that one, he could be back regardless of the rest of his record. Further, he has continued to recruit very well despite the mediocre/disappointing overall results and questions about how long he'll be there and that has to be a good sign for the program.

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships? I take your question to mean, how competitive will we be with the addition of scholarships. If that's the case, I have no idea what the answer is. Scholarships for this incoming class won't be any type of game changer. At most, they will hopefully set the table for the future and erase what was a pretty poor class before it, given it was the one year we recruited with the league-wide AI and no scholarships. That said, there is alot of talent, post-Skelton. Our skill positions are more loaded than I've ever seen. The key is whether or not we find a QB and if that guy will have enough time to get the ball to the talent. If our Oline is good it will allow a new QB to ease in to the job. If our Oline remains below average I could easily see a confidence busting start where the QB is rattled since they never have enough time. I hope we go with a scrambling-type of QB who can keep a play alive long enough for our WR's and RB's to get open. I would not be surprised to see the QB who starts the year at 2 or 3 on the depth chart be the eventual winner here.

As important as our Oline is our overall D. Ever since we lost the leadership of the dreadlocked pair of Owens and Hudnell in our championship season, our D has never performed well at all.

Low expectations for me this year. We should be good enough to possibly grab a game or two against LU, LC or CU but are just as likely to get tagged by GU, BU or HC. Lower half to middle of the league is where I think we should be pre-season.

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell? After Massella's quick turnaround at Fordham I never underestimate the impact of a new guy running the show where no one knows his tendencies or system yet along with a team playing with confidence. The fact that the league is overall pretty competitive overall. means that while I expect an improved BU team that lays the groundwork for a future run, I wouldn't be surprised by a team that grabs some early wins and then becomes a legit threat to be in the title mix.

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year? Odds are likely the same as previous years imo. They could grab one but certainly won't be favored in any of them.

My pre-season picks:
Lehigh (kiss of death - you're welcome Engineer fans :D)
Colgate
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Fordham
Bucknell
Georgetown

[RichH2]

Certainly a stewpot of issues to meander through. Gate front runner. LU, LC next up with HC close behind. FU s/b competitive They like LC and HC need a qb. BU with new O scheme probably needs one also.Susan will make them better but lack of depth and size limits their possibilities. Does Coen finally get it? Hope so. Took Higgins 4 yrs. Cecchini a huge plus. OL best part of O. D will not be as good as last year but will still be very good. If we can survive Sept we can have a very good season for the 1st time in quite a while. Dont think Gate can handle Cuse but I think they will keep it competitive until late in the game.

Scholarships are of course hugley important not as a pancea to curing all PL ills but will stabilize PL and give us a better OOC balance. I am , having said that, terminlly bored with the issue. Regardless of what the PL poobahs do our teams still have to play the games. I would rather just delve there and leave schollies to after the season.

When does everyone open their camps?

[colorless raider]

I think the Raiders are Aug 6?

[breezy]

I have said it before and I will say it again -- HC won the league title last year with Randolph and will compete for the league championship again this year without him. Gilmore has developed talent and depth at every position. Those who think last year's team was just Randolph and a bunch of nobodys will be surprised.

I think that Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh and Holy Cross all have a legitimate chance to be the champs this year. I think HC has a good chance to repeat, but if it does not Lehigh would be my pick.

Although I understand why many people believe Colgate is the logical pick for the title this year with the Sullivan-Eachus combination, I believe Colgate will not win the league this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is a key element in the scholarship puzzle that is missing so far, and a crucial part of the calculus.

With scholarships, if something does happen to the CAA where a school like UNH or Maine decides that the conference is too costly, the PL can actually be a viable alternative. DFW thinks that the AI would be too much of a competitive disadvantage, but I honestly don't think so - UNH's graduation rates are always at the top of CAA football anyway, so you have to think that an AI certainly woldn't be a big deal for the Wildcats.

Without scholarships, the chance of getting a new school to join the league is remote. Either the league will have to push D-IIIs like Johns Hopkins, RIT or MIT to become Division I schools (unlikely, and even if it were possible it would be at least five years away from happening), or they'll have to go after true non-scholarships like Marist and hope they can ramp up to success (also unlikely). CAA teams will never downgrade away from scholarships - nor will NEC teams.

The important question is whether scholarships make a revised PL model that is something that will be acceptable for other schools to look towards as a viable option for their football programs. This question is crucial. It leaked out that Richmond at one time was mulling over going to the PL, and the response was a student and alumni uproar that kept them in the CAA for football (and, arguably, turned around their entire football program). Northeastern and Hofstra chose to abandon their football programs instead of even seriously thinking about the PL. (Hofstra had one phone conversation with the PL officelast year, and that was it.) Rhode Island, Duquesne and Bryant decided to join the NEC rather than give the PL an ounce of thought. This shows what has been clear to many of us: no D-I school is really, seriously, considering the Patriot League at all as an option.

Whether scholarships will allow PL teams to become perennial title contenders is an interesting question, but ultimately not the most important one. The scholarship question is really one of the overall survival of the league.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

There is a key element in the scholarship puzzle that is missing so far, and a crucial part of the calculus.

With scholarships, if something does happen to the CAA where a school like UNH or Maine decides that the conference is too costly, the PL can actually be a viable alternative. DFW thinks that the AI would be too much of a competitive disadvantage, but I honestly don't think so - UNH's graduation rates are always at the top of CAA football anyway, so you have to think that an AI certainly woldn't be a big deal for the Wildcats.

Without scholarships, the chance of getting a new school to join the league is remote. Either the league will have to push D-IIIs like Johns Hopkins, RIT or MIT to become Division I schools (unlikely, and even if it were possible it would be at least five years away from happening), or they'll have to go after true non-scholarships like Marist and hope they can ramp up to success (also unlikely). CAA teams will never downgrade away from scholarships - nor will NEC teams.

The important question is whether scholarships make a revised PL model that is something that will be acceptable for other schools to look towards as a viable option for their football programs. This question is crucial. It leaked out that Richmond at one time was mulling over going to the PL, and the response was a student and alumni uproar that kept them in the CAA for football (and, arguably, turned around their entire football program). Northeastern and Hofstra chose to abandon their football programs instead of even seriously thinking about the PL. (Hofstra had one phone conversation with the PL officelast year, and that was it.) Rhode Island, Duquesne and Bryant decided to join the NEC rather than give the PL an ounce of thought. This shows what has been clear to many of us: no D-I school is really, seriously, considering the Patriot League at all as an option.

Whether scholarships will allow PL teams to become perennial title contenders is an interesting question, but ultimately not the most important one. The scholarship question is really one of the overall survival of the league.

The current AI was a significant factor for Fordham and you seriously don't think it would be an issue for UNH? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx UNH has had excellent graduation rates and recruits with academic standards higher than the NCAA minimum, but I don't think the recruits have GPA's and SAT scores that would meet the current AI. I'm basing that on the numbers that I've seen mentioned by PL posters on this forum. Those numbers were in the stratosphere! UNH recruits kids with good solid HS academics, stresses graduation, doesn't have "basket weaving" majors, etc., but I don't think many of these kids have HS credentials that put them into the Ivy, Patriot, NESCAC, etc. type world. That's my impression of what the current AI is all about.

I think you need to talk with Husky Alum about Northeastern and the Patriot. JMHO, but if the Patriot had demonstrated interest in Northeastern then they'd still be playing football today.

[ngineer]

Here's my shot at the ?'s in play.

Holy Cross' chances at repeating as League Champs? Low imo. I actually expect this will be a rough year in Worcester. That said, it really is a chance for Gilmore to cement himself into the Biddle/Tavani category as an elite PL coach if they are squarely in the mix for the title this year. That will put him in position to land a new job or get a job-for-life deal ala Biddle & Tavani imo. Important year for him imo. Not important as in 'his job is on the line' but important as in being a springboard for his future.

Colgate's chance at dethroning Syracuse? Extremely low

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them? I'll rely upon the LC fans to answer the last question but I will say that in any year where there is not a clear cut favorite you should always bet on LC & CU to be in the title hunt (even if they get off to slow starts).

Does Andy Cohen finally have the pieces in place at Lehigh? I'm stunned that he's still there after they let Lembo go for dramatically better results. That said, he certainly has the pieces and with Cecchini back he might finally have the coaching to get there. I'd say that this is his last shot but overall the importance of winning the last game on the schedule can't be overstated. If he wins that one, he could be back regardless of the rest of his record. Further, he has continued to recruit very well despite the mediocre/disappointing overall results and questions about how long he'll be there and that has to be a good sign for the program.

How does Fordham figure into the discussion with scholarships? I take your question to mean, how competitive will we be with the addition of scholarships. If that's the case, I have no idea what the answer is. Scholarships for this incoming class won't be any type of game changer. At most, they will hopefully set the table for the future and erase what was a pretty poor class before it, given it was the one year we recruited with the league-wide AI and no scholarships. That said, there is alot of talent, post-Skelton. Our skill positions are more loaded than I've ever seen. The key is whether or not we find a QB and if that guy will have enough time to get the ball to the talent. If our Oline is good it will allow a new QB to ease in to the job. If our Oline remains below average I could easily see a confidence busting start where the QB is rattled since they never have enough time. I hope we go with a scrambling-type of QB who can keep a play alive long enough for our WR's and RB's to get open. I would not be surprised to see the QB who starts the year at 2 or 3 on the depth chart be the eventual winner here.

As important as our Oline is our overall D. Ever since we lost the leadership of the dreadlocked pair of Owens and Hudnell in our championship season, our D has never performed well at all.

Low expectations for me this year. We should be good enough to possibly grab a game or two against LU, LC or CU but are just as likely to get tagged by GU, BU or HC. Lower half to middle of the league is where I think we should be pre-season.

What can we expect from new head man Joe Susan at Bucknell? After Massella's quick turnaround at Fordham I never underestimate the impact of a new guy running the show where no one knows his tendencies or system yet along with a team playing with confidence. The fact that the league is overall pretty competitive overall. means that while I expect an improved BU team that lays the groundwork for a future run, I wouldn't be surprised by a team that grabs some early wins and then becomes a legit threat to be in the title mix.

Does Georgetown win a game in the PL this year? Odds are likely the same as previous years imo. They could grab one but certainly won't be favored in any of them.

My pre-season picks:
Lehigh (kiss of death - you're welcome Engineer fans :D)
Colgate
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Fordham
Bucknell
Georgetown

For the umpteenth time, Lehigh did not "let Lembo go"....He took advantage of a golden opportunity to move up to a program that was in dire need of rebuilding, and in a prestigeous league that uses scholarships. It was a no-lose proposition, and he has done well with the opportunity. He has been viewed as one of the FCS coaches on the 'fast track' to an FBS HC. He was not fired in any stretch of the imagination. Yes, there were some discontents over the way the dealt with alums as well as some disgruntlement among some players, but you will have that. He became a HC very young and Lehigh was an excellent learning incubator for him. That said, Coen needs to put results on the board after five mediocre seasons and the tools are in place for an excellent season. Nothing less than 7-4 and at least a share of the PL crown is needed. If he gets everything out of his players and wins the close ones he's been losing, a 9-2 season is quite possible.

[DFW HOYA]

That's scholarships in a nutshell imo. Stopping the league-wide slide into oblivion while increasing the level of play enough for us to have fun and be competitive again. If that's the case, though, while it might hurt Georgetown a bit by having the league move to a 'scholarships-at-whatever-level-you-choose', it certainly shouldn't be the deathknell of the Georgetown's participation in the league. Scholarships, as you seem to state above, isn't going to be a game-changer.

The devil is in the details. In such a scenario, Georgetown's recruiting is left to whomever didn't get an offer at one of the other six schools. Is that a formula to be competitive?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Further, we won't consistently be winning the recruiting battles against excellent schools like 'Nova, Richmond, W&M, Delaware, et. al. who have great support, great football and great facilities. What we can hope for imo is to do to the Ivies on occassion what the NEC has been doing to us. Get a kid who's parents might have to write a check to an Ivy to consider a free ride to a great but not-as-prestigious school. We also should be able to get (imo) those talented kids who we've been losing to the NEC to consider us now that we can offer scholarships. Finally, we may get a few more FBS transfers than we have previously, even though I don't think we'll ever turn into any type of transfer-factory. That's scholarships in a nutshell imo. Stopping the league-wide slide into oblivion while increasing the level of play enough for us to have fun and be competitive again.

xoutofrepx

Scholarships will pull a few that might have gone to Penn or Cornell, but we'll be able to skim the cream of the (AI-qualifying) crop from the NEC. A vote for no scholarships is a gamble that the FCS arms race is going to implode and that the high-endowment Ivy & PL will be the only ones left standing.

A note on Fordham - I don't see what's so bad about its stadium (other than being one-sided). I hope Fordham invests in locker rooms, coaches' offices, strength training facilities and film study rooms. But so much at Fordham is being redirected to Lincoln Center and away from Rose Hill these days.

[Franks Tanks]

Whatever...the #'s don't lie....HC games against UMass,Yale, Colgate, BC etc. at Fitton in the 70's and 80's were regularly in the 15-25,000 range (better than Temple then btw)...now games against PL foes are very lucky to approach 10,000.

I fully realize this was our own undoing but there's a sizeable audience of HC football that has tuned out post PL.

You get to play the sames teams today!

[Fordham]

For the umpteenth time, Lehigh did not "let Lembo go"....He took advantage of a golden opportunity to move up to a program that was in dire need of rebuilding, and in a prestigeous league that uses scholarships. It was a no-lose proposition, and he has done well with the opportunity. He has been viewed as one of the FCS coaches on the 'fast track' to an FBS HC. He was not fired in any stretch of the imagination. Yes, there were some discontents over the way the dealt with alums as well as some disgruntlement among some players, but you will have that. He became a HC very young and Lehigh was an excellent learning incubator for him. That said, Coen needs to put results on the board after five mediocre seasons and the tools are in place for an excellent season. Nothing less than 7-4 and at least a share of the PL crown is needed. If he gets everything out of his players and wins the close ones he's been losing, a 9-2 season is quite possible. Apologies for adding to your frustration. I can relate, given all of the "how can Fordham dedicate all of this money to the scholarship move!" statements made despite constantly reminding everyone that we didn't spend a dime more in making the move.

I think I'm a bit guilty here of reading too much into message board frustration which you think I'd know better to do by now given how much of it is worthless (in my best Rodney Dangerfield - 'except you guys, of course'). That said, in following the move as it happened I really didn't think that Lembo was hell bent on leaving and really never got the sense that Lehigh was hell bent on keeping him. Seemed like a pretty much agreeable and mutual parting of the ways when it happened. Is that inaccurate? If it's on the mark, I wonder if Lehigh regrets not making a harder push to keep him now. Perhaps he would have produced similar results since the entire league has felt the impact of the NEC move to scholarships, the increased aid thrown around by the Ivies, etc. Perhaps he simply saw the writing on the wall and actually was hell bent on leaving?


The devil is in the details. In such a scenario, Georgetown's recruiting is left to whomever didn't get an offer at one of the other six schools. Is that a formula to be competitive? What is Georgetown's recruiting pool left with as it stands now? My point is not that a move to scholarships will in any way help them, although depending on how they chose to spend the $$ (e.g. - loading up scholarship $$'s to key targets) it arguably could help land some incredible athletes while sacrificing much needed depth. My point moreso is that scholarships won't change THAT much in terms of who is going to attend Gtown if we end up grabbing a few kids that otherwise would have ended up at Ivy or NEC schools. By definition you would not be getting those kids, scholarships or no scholarships.

The only argument I'm reading there is that ANY single thing that improves the play of other league members will increase the spread between Gtown and the rest of the league and therefore Georgetown will be against it.

[ngineer]

Lembo was not 'hell bent' on leaving, but was certainly open to any decent opportunities, which Elon presented. I spoke with Pete personally after his decision, and he was not looking to leave for just anything that came down the road, and the University was not 'pushing him out' , either. There was nothing Lehigh could do to keep him. He wasn't going to get any more money than already agreed to, and he wasn't going to get the scholarships (obviously (;-)) that the SoCon gives. It's total speculation as to what his record would have been over the past five years, as we have lost a ton of close games (7 pts or less), but then, Pete was criticized for the same deficiency.

[carney2]

C'mon, ngineer, let's replay history the way it actually happened and not the way we want it to be. There were a lot of currents and cross currents in the Pete Lembo decision to leave Squawk Mountain, but significant among them was the fact that large portions of the football constituency, particularly the alumni, wanted him gone. Two reasons:

1. He had an abrasive and sometimes non-existent personality.

and

2. He wasn't Kevin Higgins.

It should also be noted that he lost that last team of his. They stopped listening to him and even quit down the stretch.

To some extent, he read the writing on the wall and got out of town while the getting was good. Scholarships or not, stronger conference or not, Elon was not a significant improvement over his Lehigh situation. It was a life boat as much as anything.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The current AI was a significant factor for Fordham and you seriously don't think it would be an issue for UNH? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx UNH has had excellent graduation rates and recruits with academic standards higher than the NCAA minimum, but I don't think the recruits have GPA's and SAT scores that would meet the current AI. I'm basing that on the numbers that I've seen mentioned by PL posters on this forum. Those numbers were in the stratosphere! UNH recruits kids with good solid HS academics, stresses graduation, doesn't have "basket weaving" majors, etc., but I don't think many of these kids have HS credentials that put them into the Ivy, Patriot, NESCAC, etc. type world. That's my impression of what the current AI is all about.

I think you need to talk with Husky Alum about Northeastern and the Patriot. JMHO, but if the Patriot had demonstrated interest in Northeastern then they'd still be playing football today.

First of all, when it became clear that the larger aspirations of Northeastern football in the CAA were not going to happen, Northeastern never approached the league office and considered the PL as an option. Hofstra at least gave the office a call, but in reality they were never seriously considering it either.

And second of all, Fordham's issue was never with the AI per se. They have always been fine with it, and are fine with it today - that's why they still use the AI. The issue has always been the league's AI along with grant-based aid. The deal that was rumored was that AI changes would be accepted by Fordham, but with a quid pro quo with scholarships because without scholarships, they wouldn't be able to field a competitive team with the AI restriction. (A caveat: this deal is only a rumor, since I don't have independent confirmation, but it is a theory that fits the facts pretty well.)

Bottom line? An AI with grant-based aid is a model that no Division I program seems to want to pursue at this time. An AI with football scholarships is the direction Fordham has already gone down, and it's a model that (IMO) is exportable to any number of smaller private schools - and also former small, public YankCon members whose football teams are comprised mostly from out-of-state talent.

Again, the right question isn't "are scholarships going to make PL football too powerful?". It's "can the AI model survive with only grant-based aid holding it up?". It survives in the Ivy League because they are all rich as sin and are decided to pursue aid policies that effectively scholarshipping most of their students (and quite passibly entire football teams) through their endowments. Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette are great schools with tough academic standards, but they don't have the astronomical sums of money that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have to subsidize their educations. It's time to stop pretending that left to their own devices, a school with a $900 million endowment can offer similar athletic aid to an institution that has a $30 billion endowment.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Why in the world would Northeastern have bothered to call the Patriot League? I do believe they already knew where they stood with the Patriot.

I don't have the time to find the old posts, but I sure do recall a slew of Fordham posters complaining about how the AI was applied (something about being based on a league average rather than a per school average) being a very negative impact to Fordham. That's what I based my opinion on. And the numbers that were thrown about in those posts would be a serious issue for UNH, Maine, Albany, Delaware, etc. Not sure how William and Mary would do with them, but they're probably the only public with a shot of meeting the AI currently used by the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why in the world would Northeastern have bothered to call the Patriot League? I do believe they already knew where they stood with the Patriot.

How badly did they want to keep football? Obviously, football was not a priority to them. If it was, they might have at least called in an effort to see how they could keep it.


I don't have the time to find the old posts, but I sure do recall a slew of Fordham posters complaining about how the AI was applied (something about being based on a league average rather than a per school average) being a very negative impact to Fordham. That's what I based my opinion on. And the numbers that were thrown about in those posts would be a serious issue for UNH, Maine, Albany, Delaware, etc. Not sure how William and Mary would do with them, but they're probably the only public with a shot of meeting the AI currently used by the PL.


If you checked them, you'd clearly see the "quid pro quo" argument that Fordham and others referred to. And it is my understanding (just from my own calculations, no more) that if the AI were applied to out-of-state football folks at UNH, their AI bands would be just at or slightly higher than Fordham's. Maine's I was less sure about, but my belief is that it would fall in similar to UNH's.

[DFW HOYA]

Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette are great schools with tough academic standards, but they don't have the astronomical sums of money that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have to subsidize their educations. It's time to stop pretending that left to their own devices, a school with a $900 million endowment can offer similar athletic aid to an institution that has a $30 billion endowment.

Let's not mix size with impact. Here are the endowment totals for selected Eastern universities (endowment in billions), with PL schools in bold.

1. Harvard University: 25.662
2. Yale University: 16.327
4. Princeton University: 12.614
--------
8. Columbia University: 5.893
10. University of Pennsylvania: 5.171
18. Cornell University: 3.966
22. Dartmouth College: 2.924
26. Brown University: 2.017
34. University of Richmond: 1.417
--------
66. Lehigh University: 0.886
67. Georgetown University: 0.883
99. Colgate University: 0.561
108. Lafayette College: 0.536
118. College of William & Mary: 0.495
119. College of the Holy Cross: 0.490
131. Bucknell University: 0.443
--------
154. Fordham University: 0.330
185. Villanova University: 0.267

That doesn't tell the story, however. Resorting these by endowment per student shows that some PL schools are more competitive on endowments (and some are, well, not).

Endowment By Student:

Princeton University $1,661,527
Yale University $1,437,616
Harvard University $1,209,049
--------
Dartmouth College $471,842
University of Richmond $333,462
Columbia University $257,103
University of Pennsylvania $250,474
Brown University $235,247
Lafayette College $224,847
Davidson College $217,280
Colgate University $203,966
--------
Cornell University $192,321
College of the Holy Cross $173,830
Lehigh University $127,077
Bucknell University $121,322
--------
College of William & Mary $62,697
Georgetown University $57,656 (!)
Villanova University $27,971
Fordham University $22,512

[jimbo65]

Let's not mix size with impact. Here are the endowment totals for 18 Eastern universities (endowment in billions), with PL schools in bold.

167. Georgetown University: 0.883
154. Fordham University: 0.330[/B]

What am I missing, and I do not mean this sarcastically, GTown has a tad less than three times the Fordham endowment. With an endowment of .8 billion, I would think they could complete the fball facility. Are they in heavy debt?

[DFW HOYA]

What am I missing, and I do not mean this sarcastically, GTown has a tad less than three times the Fordham endowment. With an endowment of .8 billion, I would think they could complete the fball facility. Are they in heavy debt?

Do you consider debt of over $500 million as heavy? (If so, yes...) But remember, very little of endowment proceeds are unrestricted in any university. A $40 million gift to Harvard Law, for example, returns money for the law school, not for athletic facilities.

Georgetown cannot build the MSF without "cash in hand". Getting millions "in hand" is no small undertaking, which is also why it's the only Top 25 basketball program without its own practice facility--no money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's not mix size with impact.... Resorting these by endowment per student shows that some PL schools are more competitive on endowments (and some are, well, not).

Endowment By Student:

Princeton University $1,661,527
Yale University $1,437,616
Harvard University $1,209,049
University of Richmond $333,462
Columbia University $257,103
University of Pennsylvania $250,474
Brown University $235,247
Lafayette College $224,847
Davidson College $217,280
Colgate University $203,966
Cornell University $192,321
College of the Holy Cross $173,830
Lehigh University $127,077
Bucknell University $121,322
--------
College of William & Mary $62,697
Georgetown University $57,656 (!)
Villanova University $27,971
Fordham University $22,512

Your chart inadverently shows a different issue, one that's out of scope of this discussion but still very telling. Harvard, Yale and Princeton have an endowment of over $1 million PER STUDENT, while every other school below it, Ivy or otherwise, is less than a quarter of those numbers.

The desire of these schools to keep a unified Ivy League aid package, in essence, is what kept the Ivy League grant-in-aid/Academic Index system alive for a long time. It was relatively recently, when Ivy League schools decided to scrap standardized aid packages and allowing H-Y-P to scholarship all their students with packages that Brown, Columbia and Dartmouth (and Colgate, Lehigh and Georgetown for that matter) could only dream about, when the playing field really changed away from sustainability.

You do bring up a good point, but the truth is that a scholarship PL would do a better job in creating a "level playing field" than need-based aid. In a need-based aid world, the only real way to get around the restriction is to put the entire student body on need-based aid - which H-Y-P can do realtively easily since they are so rich. With football scholarships, there would be (of course) a Title IX restriction but the amount of distributed aid would not depend as much on your overall endowment.

[LEHIGH61]

The Lehigh alumni who wanted Lembo to leave obviously did not know what they were talking about. Lembo was a very good coach and he has been outstanding at Elon. The final few years he lost a lot of close games under "weird" circumstances, such as the Holy Cross Monsoon loss and the last minute loss to Lafayette. He was more a victim of fate than anything else. And talk about personality? Lembo was charasmatic compared to the current Lehigh coach.
C'mon, ngineer, let's replay history the way it actually happened and not the way we want it to be. There were a lot of currents and cross currents in the Pete Lembo decision to leave Squawk Mountain, but significant among them was the fact that large portions of the football constituency, particularly the alumni, wanted him gone. Two reasons:

1. He had an abrasive and sometimes non-existent personality.

and

2. He wasn't Kevin Higgins.

It should also be noted that he lost that last team of his. They stopped listening to him and even quit down the stretch.

To some extent, he read the writing on the wall and got out of town while the getting was good. Scholarships or not, stronger conference or not, Elon was not a significant improvement over his Lehigh situation. It was a life boat as much as anything.

[ngineer]

Anytime you have an organization of 100 people, there will be dissatisfied people *****ing about something. Lembo made some 'youthful' mistakes in dealing with some old alums that got him on the wrong foot, especially after he started at the top with no place to go but down; but even that 'down' was not horrendous. There were some 'freak' losses mentioned, as well as the OT loss to Delaware at the TUB, also in 2005...amazing all three of those losses occured in the same year in an 8-3 season. The sense was Lehigh was not 'tough enough' or 'deep enough' to pull out those games in the end. Yet, we seem to have the same problem, today. Pete was more 'loquatious' than Andy, but Andy also seems to have a better connection with the players and the alums. I think Pete saw a situation that was not going to get materially better down the road and Elon presented a great opportunity. Not the school itself, but the opportunity to get into a 'Center Ring' conference and make some noise in order to move up the ladder, which he's done. Coen was on everyone's mind the minute Pete made the decision due to his great relationship with everyone at Lehigh when he was Higgins' assistant.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How badly did they want to keep football? Obviously, football was not a priority to them. If it was, they might have at least called in an effort to see how they could keep it.

Well, they did a two year study rather than the clandestine hatchet job a la Hofstra. They did try to build an on campus facility and when Mayor Mumbles blocked that they worked with Kraft and the Rev's on two scenarios for a shared facility, one near campus and one in Somerville just outside Boston. The only option given to them by Mayor Mumbles was rehabbing City Stadium in Franklin Park. While a better stadium, it was farther from the "T" (subway/trolley system), a worse walk from campus and in a sketchier neighborhood than Parsons. From everything I've seen and heard, Northeastern did their "due diligence" on this subject. They knew their only option with Parsons was the NEC or Pioneer. And they weren't going to be forced into the Franklin Park option.

NU folks, if this isn't an accurate synopsis then please correct me.


If you checked them, you'd clearly see the "quid pro quo" argument that Fordham and others referred to. And it is my understanding (just from my own calculations, no more) that if the AI were applied to out-of-state football folks at UNH, their AI bands would be just at or slightly higher than Fordham's. Maine's I was less sure about, but my belief is that it would fall in similar to UNH's.

But you again fail to acknowledge that the AI numbers from that "quid pro quo" agreement had a negative impact on Fordham's recruiting according to their member's posts back then. You aren't trying to tell me that everyone at Fordham was happy with those AI bands? If everything was hunky dory with Fordham, then why have they gone off into this limbo status this year? Seriously, how long does Fordham stay in this arrangement with the Patriot? I doubt they let the lack of a decision over scholarships to linger on for too long.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But you again fail to acknowledge that the AI numbers from that "quid pro quo" agreement had a negative impact on Fordham's recruiting according to their member's posts back then. You aren't trying to tell me that everyone at Fordham was happy with those AI bands? If everything was hunky dory with Fordham, then why have they gone off into this limbo status this year? Seriously, how long does Fordham stay in this arrangement with the Patriot? I doubt they let the lack of a decision over scholarships to linger on for too long.

They had a negative impact on recruiting since athletes that were admissible to Fordham under the old AI were suddenly not admissible under the new AI. Fordham was OK with this, as long as scholarships would increase their recruiting pool in order to get the types of recruits they wanted. The rumor was this deal was in place, but when the economic meltdown of 2008 happened the Patriot League pulled back and said more "study" needed to be done on scholarships. Fordham felt burned, and went to scholarships anyway because they felt they couldn't compete with a stricter AI and need-based aid together.

If what you say is true - Fordham is unhappy with the AI - why is it still being used in their recruiting classes for football, and why did they engage in this "scheduling agreement" with the PL and wait until the 2010 deadline? If they were really unhappy, they could have told the PL goodbye two years ago and become an independent, and recruited without an AI for last year and this year.

Fordham didn't say they were dumping the AI and need-based aid. They said they were dumping need-based aid in order to offer full scholarships.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Yes, UNH, you are correct. Northeastern went above and beyond in researching the situation and various options. It wasn't overnight...it went on for years. It's sad that they had to drop the program, but to say they didn't put in the time and effort to preserve the program is completely false.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First of all, when it became clear that the larger aspirations of Northeastern football in the CAA were not going to happen, Northeastern never approached the league office and considered the PL as an option. Hofstra at least gave the office a call, but in reality they were never seriously considering it either....


Why in the world would Northeastern have bothered to call the Patriot League? I do believe they already knew where they stood with the Patriot.


How badly did they want to keep football? Obviously, football was not a priority to them. If it was, they might have at least called in an effort to see how they could keep it.


Well, they did a two year study rather than the clandestine hatchet job a la Hofstra. They did try to build an on campus facility and when Mayor Mumbles blocked that they worked with Kraft and the Rev's on two scenarios for a shared facility, one near campus and one in Somerville just outside Boston. The only option given to them by Mayor Mumbles was rehabbing City Stadium in Franklin Park. While a better stadium, it was farther from the "T" (subway/trolley system), a worse walk from campus and in a sketchier neighborhood than Parsons. From everything I've seen and heard, Northeastern did their "due diligence" on this subject. They knew their only option with Parsons was the NEC or Pioneer. And they weren't going to be forced into the Franklin Park option.

NU folks, if this isn't an accurate synopsis then please correct me.


Yes, UNH, you are correct. Northeastern went above and beyond in researching the situation and various options. It wasn't overnight...it went on for years. It's sad that they had to drop the program, but to say they didn't put in the time and effort to preserve the program is completely false.

I don't think they went "above and beyond" to save their football program.

As you point out, They could have considered joining the NEC or Pioneer League, but didn't really seriously consider that an option. They also could have considered joining the Patriot League. They could have gone behind the scenes to help create a new America East conference and had it sponsor football, or they could have tried to put feelers out as to the viability of a new Yankee Conference. They even could have considered competing as an independent just to see what possibilities were out there a couple years from now.

That's going "above and beyond".

Shooting for the moon (going for that Revs/stadium deal next to campus), failing to get exactly what you want, and then pulling the plug - that's not "above and beyond". Don't get me wrong - Northeastern had a rough situation out there in Boston, and they made a really good effort at trying to keep up with the rest of the CAA with a neat stadium deal. It would have been great for them had it happened. But when that wasn't going to happen, the plug was pulled fast. All those other "above and beyond" possibilites weren't really seriously considered.

[Dane96]

You generally have some insight, but sir...I have documents that show your statement regarding NU is categorically incorrect. They did work with UA, Stony Brook and others to form an America East football (and hockey league). I have the power point from the member schools. NU fans have laid eyes on it years ago....as to UNH_Alumn. They did deal with Mayor Mumbles in many different ways. They did purchase land near Columbus Ave. to build a stadium and then were told (by the City) "Nyet". In fact, they were given a pseudo ultimatum, " You can have your dorms or your stadium...not both." Both were desperately needed.

They did approach, through back door channels (from my understanding of the situation) the PL. Why on earth would they go the Pioneer route? Do you know how much $$$ it costs and schedule nightmares come with being an INDY. Those two reasons are why UA hasnt gone indy with full rides.

They didnt "shoot for the moon"; that Stadium was/is desperately needed by the Revs and NU (and the high schools). It is Menino's stupid ****ing "my people need jobs" deal that killed it. The guy is actually doing a study to try and take the Harbor Islands back from the Feds. That is such a waste of money...and grandstanding...because it is a sure loser. He wants to build more high rise hotels and office buildings...yet the occupancy rate is at an all-time low. Guy is a total moron and indirectly had a hand in NU's plight.

Fact is...Bostonian's dont rock the boat....and that cost NY.

LFN tell me this; What land would you have given NU to compete at any level (Pioneer, NEC or otherwise).

[TheValleyRaider]

Lafayette seems to fly somewhat under the radar, but is virtually always in the mix vying for the league crown...who will be throwing and carrying the ball for them?

Throwing will be either senior Marc Quilling or junior Ryan O'Neil, brother of Dominic Randolph's predecessor at Holy Cross. No obvious front runner at the moment. The key to the QB situation for the Pards may very well be the incredible 4-man receiving rotation. They will either be so good as to push the QB over the top, or will end up being a waste of a marveloous resource. Offensive coordinator/QB coach Mickey Fein may be the most important man on this team.

Quilling, if I remember correctly, has a pretty strong arm. If the receiving corps is as good as you suggest, he might be a pretty solid choice. I know Tavani wants to be a run-first offense, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. If you can throw well, shifting the balance would seem like a wiser course...


Carrying the ball will be slightly undersized, but very promising junior, Jerome Rudolph. Primary backup at the moment is sophomore Vaughn Hebron whose father of the same name played a few years in the NFL. There is hope in Leopardland that freshman Patrick Mputu will also be a contributor.

I do remember Hebron, mostly because he has a fairly memorable name. Does seeing the kids of players I watched in the NFL now in college make me offically old?

Unrelated, but I'm fairly certain Patrick Mputu is the brother of Colgate sophomore receiver Jonathan Mputu

As for the other questions:
Holy Cross will have difficulty in replacing Randolph. Not necessarily the talent, though Dom certainly had it, but those intangibles. How do you replace a guy so firmly entrenched in the position? At this level, it is very difficult, and could cost HC in some tight games with the other PL contenders

I'm still not buying Lehigh as a real contender, though not necessarily from a player standpoint. There's talent, and they'll probably beat one of the other top teams (HC, LC, 'Gate). The biggest weakness seems to be the guys on the sideline, particularly their inability to win close games. Does the recent coaching shuffle change that? I'll believe it when I see it

This year, Fordham's scholarship outfit won't make much preseason noise, which seems fair given recent results. The scholarship difference, if one appears, will happen over the next few seasons. They could make a run this year, I suppose (remember how unfancied they were coming into 2007), but Masella has his work cut out for him

Without really knowing what Susan has planned for Bucknell, it's hard to say what the changes will be beyond non-specific statements such as "different offense". Depending on his adaptability to personnel, I wouldn't expect much this year from the Bison. Maybe even a small step backward if the philosophy and talent don't mix well

Ahh, Georgetown. It's probably going to be something of a surprise to everyone outside of the Hoya faithful when they win their next PL game, so it's hard for me to sit here in late July and predict anything other than another 0-fer. Who would it be? Maybe Bucknell if the Susan transition doesn't go smoothly? Maybe Lehigh late in the year if the Hawks are struggling and the bottom falls out on Coen? An upset in Hamilton when the Raiders overlook them after shocking Syracuse? Hypotheticals at this point

Best guess right now
Colgate
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Lehigh
Fordham
Bucknell
Georgetown
That's a very hesitant #1 vote for the Raiders. Much as I love the Sullivan-Eachus offense, I worry about the lack of Simonds and the as-of-yet uninspiring defense. Not particularly enamored with anyone else right now, not thinking it's a strong League this season. Here's hoping I'm wrong (but not about Colgate taking the title ;))

[Sader87]

The collected attitude of Worcester/Boston's media/general populace and most HC alums pre-1990 towards PL football: "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....huh? what? Villanova? playoffs? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz."

[jimbo65]

Do you consider debt of over $500 million as heavy? (If so, yes...) But remember, very little of endowment proceeds are unrestricted in any university. A $40 million gift to Harvard Law, for example, returns money for the law school, not for athletic facilities.

Georgetown cannot build the MSF without "cash in hand". Getting millions "in hand" is no small undertaking, which is also why it's the only Top 25 basketball program without its own practice facility--no money.

1/2 billion is indeed heavy for anyone except the current crowd running DC. Here's a suggestion, tell them the fball field is "shovel ready" and seek stimulus funds. Heck, they'll likely construct you another RFK. As per this week's Crane's, with 1/2 of the stimulus $ spent, only 27% has been spent on "shovel ready" with 73% covering operating expenses, teacher salaries etc.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I don't think they went "above and beyond" to save their football program.

As you point out, They could have considered joining the NEC or Pioneer League, but didn't really seriously consider that an option. They also could have considered joining the Patriot League. They could have gone behind the scenes to help create a new America East conference and had it sponsor football, or they could have tried to put feelers out as to the viability of a new Yankee Conference. They even could have considered competing as an independent just to see what possibilities were out there a couple years from now.

That's going "above and beyond".

Shooting for the moon (going for that Revs/stadium deal next to campus), failing to get exactly what you want, and then pulling the plug - that's not "above and beyond". Don't get me wrong - Northeastern had a rough situation out there in Boston, and they made a really good effort at trying to keep up with the rest of the CAA with a neat stadium deal. It would have been great for them had it happened. But when that wasn't going to happen, the plug was pulled fast. All those other "above and beyond" possibilites weren't really seriously considered.

"Above and beyond" is certainly something you can have an opinion on since it's semantics. You could say that since NU didn't upgrade to FBS and play at Gillette Stadium, they didn't go "above and beyond".

But the rationale for your statement is wrong. It's not an opinion. It's facts. Dane and others have made reference to the facts that we've had for years. They have been discussed on this forum as well as CAAzone. This wasn't some decision that happened fast...it was determined over a number of years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Above and beyond" is certainly something you can have an opinion on since it's semantics. You could say that since NU didn't upgrade to FBS and play at Gillette Stadium, they didn't go "above and beyond".

But the rationale for your statement is wrong. It's not an opinion. It's facts. Dane and others have made reference to the facts that we've had for years. They have been discussed on this forum as well as CAAzone. This wasn't some decision that happened fast...it was determined over a number of years.

Fair points. I'll be the first to admit I was unaware that Northeastern, behind the scenes, was trying to pull together America East football. I do know at one time - long ago, before the CAA came on the scene - Northeastern was at least thinking about Patriot League membership. But when the Huskies joined the CAA, the calculus changed. All of a sudden, it somehow became a decision between keeping up with the CAA's vision of football (large stadiums, millions in renovations) or... dropping football.

My point is that Northeastern did have options to "save" football if they were serious about it. They could have joined America East in all other sports and played some other brand of football, played Pioneer, etc. But they chose not to. I'm not saying it was a good decision or bad decision. The decision was made on the basis that Northeastern was either going to "play (FCS) big, or not play at all". They tried hard to "play big", and (creditably) almost did so. That's not the same as saving the program - which might have entailed playing at Parsons for a much longer time, being content with fewer scholarships, playing in a different league. Those things could have happened, too, but Northeastern decided that they didn't want to.

[LBPop]

1/2 billion is indeed heavy for anyone except the current crowd running DC. Here's a suggestion, tell them the fball field is "shovel ready" and seek stimulus funds. Heck, they'll likely construct you another RFK. As per this week's Crane's, with 1/2 of the stimulus $ spent, only 27% has been spent on "shovel ready" with 73% covering operating expenses, teacher salaries etc.

xlolxxlolxxlolx How perfect...inserting politics into this discussion. Maybe the Clintons could divert about a million $$ from Chelsea's wedding toward building the stadium. Bill is an alumnus, you know. xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

xlolxxlolxxlolx How perfect...inserting politics into this discussion. Maybe the Clintons could divert about a million $$ from Chelsea's wedding toward building the stadium. Bill is an alumnus, you know. xrolleyesx

If the Clintons were to spend their money bringing a proper football field to Georgetown, I'd have enough comedy material to keep my blog going another seven years. So I'm all for it! xlolx

[Go...gate]

Fair points. I'll be the first to admit I was unaware that Northeastern, behind the scenes, was trying to pull together America East football. I do know at one time - long ago, before the CAA came on the scene - Northeastern was at least thinking about Patriot League membership. But when the Huskies joined the CAA, the calculus changed. All of a sudden, it somehow became a decision between keeping up with the CAA's vision of football (large stadiums, millions in renovations) or... dropping football.

My point is that Northeastern did have options to "save" football if they were serious about it. They could have joined America East in all other sports and played some other brand of football, played Pioneer, etc. But they chose not to. I'm not saying it was a good decision or bad decision. The decision was made on the basis that Northeastern was either going to "play (FCS) big, or not play at all". They tried hard to "play big", and (creditably) almost did so. That's not the same as saving the program - which might have entailed playing at Parsons for a much longer time, being content with fewer scholarships, playing in a different league. Those things could have happened, too, but Northeastern decided that they didn't want to.

Hard to believe that we turned Hofstra and Northeastern down back in the mid 1990's, but indeed we did. Most of the Council at that time (except, conspicuously, Bucknell Prexy Adams, who had some foresight and was already working on American University) wanted no part of either school, even though Hofstra, in particular, stood on its head to get in. Now, we are really having to search far and wide for potential members.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the PL still is interested only in all-sport members going forward, isn't it?

[Go...gate]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the PL still is interested only in all-sport members going forward, isn't it?

Yes - and that was what NU and HU would have been AIR.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's probably a dozen colleges discussed here that either have been approached by, or have approached, the Patriot League in the past 25 years. I don't know of any reason (other than hurt feelings, which is silly) why any of them would be precluded from re-initiating talks if the circumstances of the college, or of the league, have changed.

[Go...gate]

There's probably a dozen colleges discussed here that either have been approached by, or have approached, the Patriot League in the past 25 years. I don't know of any reason (other than hurt feelings, which is silly) why any of them would be precluded from re-initiating talks if the circumstances of the college, or of the league, have changed.

IMO, you are correct, and certainly Hofstra comes to mind. Hofstra's inexplicable and wholesale pulling of the football plug leaves me wondering what might have been. They were within the geographic footprint and would have been fine with the academic angle. It is a shame.

[crusader11]

IMO, you are correct, and certainly Hofstra comes to mind. Hofstra's inexplicable and wholesale pulling of the football plug leaves me wondering what might have been. They were within the geographic footprint and would have been fine with the academic angle. It is a shame.

I agree. Is Hofstra really that far behind American in terms of academic standing?

[DFW HOYA]

I agree. Is Hofstra really that far behind American in terms of academic standing?

Not according to the College Board vs. the PL and some other schools discussed of late.

Acceptance Rates (lowest to highest)
Georgetown: 20%
Bucknell: 30%
Colgate: 32%
Lehigh: 33%
Holy Cross: 36%
Northeastern 41%
Lafayette: 42%
Fordham: 50%
American 53%
Hofstra 57%
URI 84%

SAT 25-75th Percentile Range (1600 point scale, highest to lowest)
Georgetown: 1300-1500
Colgate: 1270-1460
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Lehigh: 1220-1340
Holy Cross: 1210-1370
Northeastern: 1200-1370
Lafayette: 1170-1380
American: 1170-1370
Fordham: 1140-1340
Hofstra 1100-1270
URI 970-1180

[crusader11]

So I am right in saying that Hofstra and American are pretty comparable. Right?

[Bogus Megapardus]

So I am right in saying that Hofstra and American are pretty comparable. Right?

I'd say Hofstra certainly has more potential than American, which is basically a girl's school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You missed a couple important ones.


Not according to the College Board vs. the PL and some other schools discussed of late.

Acceptance Rates (lowest to highest)
Georgetown: 20%
Bucknell: 30%
Colgate: 32%
Lehigh: 33%
Holy Cross: 36%
Northeastern 41%
Lafayette: 42%
Fordham: 50%
American 53%
Hofstra 57%
UNH 67% (includes in-state)
Maine 79% (includes in-state)
URI 84% (includes in-state)

SAT 25-75th Percentile Range (1600 point scale, highest to lowest)
Georgetown: 1300-1500
Colgate: 1270-1460
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Lehigh: 1220-1340
Holy Cross: 1210-1370
Northeastern: 1200-1370
Lafayette: 1170-1380
American: 1170-1370
Fordham: 1140-1340
Hofstra 1100-1270
UNH 1010-1220 (includes in-state)
URI 970-1180
Maine 960-1180 (includes in-state)

Importantly, Hofstra and UNH - when you strip out the in-state folks in UNH - have pretty similar profiles.

[Go...gate]

So I am right in saying that Hofstra and American are pretty comparable. Right?

Yes. And I have little doubt that Hofstra (which has pumped tens of millions into its physical plant and academic programs since the 1980's) would make the institutional commitment (as American has) to bring its athletic/academic profile into line with the rest of the PL.

[Go...gate]

I'd say Hofstra certainly has more potential than American, which is basically a girl's school.

My sister has an MA from AU. I never it understood it to ever be a "women's college" such as Skidmore, Wells, Connecticut College, and other co-ed schools used to be.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It would not be unprecedented (see Villanova in the early 80s) for a school to drop football then bring it back under a different philosophy. I imagine Hofstra fans would rather have PL football then no football at all. No way Hofstra comes to the PL without football, though, and it would have to be all sports, including basketball. Hofstra would be a great pick-up for PL lacrosse.

[Sader87]

The Flying Dutchmen have sailed on....no way they either bring back football or leave the CAA for the PL.

[carney2]

Quilling, if I remember correctly, has a pretty strong arm. If the receiving corps is as good as you suggest, he might be a pretty solid choice. I know Tavani wants to be a run-first offense, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. If you can throw well, shifting the balance would seem like a wiser course...

Unrelated, but I'm fairly certain Patrick Mputu is the brother of Colgate sophomore receiver Jonathan Mputu.

As I said (somewhere) the Lafayette QB candidates each have their pluses and minuses. I am, of course, not privy to the kind of data that will go into the coaches calculus, but on the surface, Quilling has the following going for, and against, him:

PRO:

He is the only candidate with varsity experience, having started the last 3 games in 2008 and played about 1/2 of a fourth.

He does, as you point out, have a decent arm.

At 6'4", 220+, he has the best size of the candidates.

Quilling appears to have the confidence of the head coach.

CON:

Only one of his three starts in 2008 (Bucknell) can be considered a success.

He played in a high school program where passing was an afterthought.

He appears to be injury prone, missing much of 2009 and all of 2010 spring practice with various maladies, not all football related.

Apparently he was "available for duty" early enough in 2009 to deny him a medical redshirt. This means that the Pards would have to suffer a climb up the learning curve to get only one year from Quilling. Tavani would be back in this same place next year.



Yes, Lafayette freshman RB Patrick Mputu is the brother of Colgate WR Jonathon Mputu.

[ngineer]

As I said (somewhere) the Lafayette QB candidates each have their pluses and minuses. I am, of course, not privy to the kind of data that will go into the coaches calculus, but on the surface, Quilling has the following going for, and against, him:

PRO:

He is the only candidate with varsity experience, having started the last 3 games in 2008 and played about 1/2 of a fourth.

He does, as you point out, have a decent arm.

At 6'4", 220+, he has the best size of the candidates.

Quilling appears to have the confidence of the head coach.

CON:

Only one of his three starts in 2008 (Bucknell) can be considered a success.

He played in a high school program where passing was an afterthought.

He appears to be injury prone, missing much of 2009 and all of 2010 spring practice with various maladies, not all football related.

Apparently he was "available for duty" early enough in 2009 to deny him a medical redshirt. This means that the Pards would have to suffer a climb up the learning curve to get only one year from Quilling. Tavani would be back in this same place next year.



Yes, Lafayette freshman RB Patrick Mputu is the brother of Colgate WR Jonathon Mputu.

I can almost feel the spray when you say that..xsmiley_wix

[DFW HOYA]

It would not be unprecedented (see Villanova in the early 80s) for a school to drop football then bring it back under a different philosophy. I imagine Hofstra fans would rather have PL football then no football at all. No way Hofstra comes to the PL without football, though, and it would have to be all sports, including basketball. Hofstra would be a great pick-up for PL lacrosse.

Unprecedented, no, but exceedingly rare. Villanova did it only after a significant alumni response which Hofstra or Northeastern haven't seen materialize. Siena brought it back after dropping football circa 1998, made it a few more years, then dropped it again. St. Peter's dropped twice in the 1980's when not enough kids were there to field a roster, but when they went underwater for good, no one raised a peep. St. John's, Fairfield, Canisius, et al....likewise.

In a proactive climate, the PL leadership would extend a public message to these schools at Media Day that if they chose to reform a team within the PL philosophy, the league is interested in helping them get back on their feet. However, the leadership has shown to be anything but, and that course of action seems to have a probability of less than zero.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unprecedented, no, but exceedingly rare. Villanova did it only after a significant alumni response which Hofstra or Northeastern haven't seen materialize. Siena brought it back after dropping football circa 1998, made it a few more years, then dropped it again. St. Peter's dropped twice in the 1980's when not enough kids were there to field a roster, but when they went underwater for good, no one raised a peep. St. John's, Fairfield, Canisius, et al....likewise.

In a proactive climate, the PL leadership would extend a public message to these schools at Media Day that if they chose to reform a team within the PL philosophy, the league is interested in helping them get back on their feet. However, the leadership has shown to be anything but, and that course of action seems to have a probability of less than zero.

First of all, Hofstra has a pretty vocal group that is trying to get football back.

Second of all, while I can't speak for St. John's, I can say Fairfield and Siena have had strong president resistance to reinstating football. Laying out a roadmap to the PL for Siena to reinstate football and apply an AI to their sports teams would almost certainly hold no interest for the Saints, who see themselves as a one-sport school: mid-major basketball. To some varying level of degree, Fairfield and Canisius seem (to me) to be the same way these days. (Matter of fact, Fairfield's former AD blamed the demise of Eastern non-scholarship football partially on the PL.)

The problem really is one of being unable to decide what the PL should be. Should it be the sister conference of the Ivy League, which it grows at a glacial pace (if at all), only accepting Brahmin, Top 30-academic schools in their midst, and caring a whole lot more about the "principles" of need-based aid, cost-containment and Academic Indexes? Or should it be an Academic CAA, that offers football scholarships, competes for FCS national championships in football, and has the AI to demonstrate its academic "street cred" - but spend more money, and potentially cause some giant Title IX headaches?

The PL needs to be able to show what it wants to be, and then give schools a roadmap to get there.

[carney2]

Is every Patriot League thread this year going to get sidetracked/hijacked and head down this road, or will we finally get on topic once our Saturdays are filled with flying NCAA approved oblate spheroids? We will not and cannot resolve anything.

[bison137]

I agree. Is Hofstra really that far behind American in terms of academic standing?


It's pretty far behind where American is now. Not that far behind where American was ten years ago. One question is whether they would have the desire/ability to move forward the way American has.

[Go...gate]

Is every Patriot League thread this year going to get sidetracked/hijacked and head down this road, or will we finally get on topic once our Saturdays are filled with flying NCAA approved oblate spheroids? We will not and cannot resolve anything.

Let's face it, it's the 8000 lb. gorilla in the room.

[ngineer]

At this point in the 'season' it's all we have to talk about. Camp opens in about a week, so hopefully we get into some reality discussions at that time.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is every Patriot League thread this year going to get sidetracked/hijacked and head down this road, or will we finally get on topic once our Saturdays are filled with flying NCAA approved oblate spheroids? We will not and cannot resolve anything.

OK, I'll take a crack at it.

Philadelphia Eagles training camp opened yesterday at Lehigh. Firmly ensconced in the armpit of the Lafayette valley, the professional footballers are forced to suffer the indignities and odors of the Saucon Slums for more than a fortnight. It is considered both hazing for the rookies and as penance for the veterans and coaching staff, who have not won an NFL championship in 50 years. Oddly, the crafty use of computer-aided graphics and photoshop layers makes the brown-stained tundra appear green and the air pure.

The establishment of the Eagles' camp at Lehigh was, of course, a ruse by the Leopards to deprive the brown-panted pigeons of late summer practice time and to despoil completely the practice surfaces in advance of Lehigh players' arrival. Upon becoming president of the Eagles' organization, former Lafayette coach Harry Gamble deliberately moved the team from its digs at West Chester to the former toxic waste facility on South Mountain, thus initiating the steady decline of Lehigh Engineer football into the cesspool it has become today.

Just gettin' some practice in for November . . . . . xnodx

[carney2]

OK, I'll take a crack at it.

Philadelphia Eagles training camp opened yesterday at Lehigh. Firmly ensconced in the armpit of the Lafayette valley, the professional footballers are forced to suffer the indignities and odors of the Saucon Slums for more than a fortnight. It is considered both hazing for the rookies and as penance for the veterans and coaching staff, who have not won an NFL championship in 50 years. Oddly, the crafty use of computer-aided graphics and photoshop layers makes the brown-stained tundra appear green and the air pure.

The establishment of the Eagles' camp at Lehigh was, of course, a ruse by the Leopards to deprive the brown-panted pigeons of late summer practice time and to despoil completely the practice surfaces in advance of Lehigh players' arrival. Upon becoming president of the Eagles' organization, former Lafayette coach Harry Gamble deliberately moved the team from its digs at West Chester to the former toxic waste facility on South Mountain, thus initiating the steady decline of Lehigh Engineer football into the cesspool it has become today.

Just gettin' some practice in for November . . . . . xnodx

Very good for a preseason effort. Of course, by November Pard94 will have boiled it down to 4 letter unprintable invective. That will be me cheering him on.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Fair points. I'll be the first to admit I was unaware that Northeastern, behind the scenes, was trying to pull together America East football. I do know at one time - long ago, before the CAA came on the scene - Northeastern was at least thinking about Patriot League membership. But when the Huskies joined the CAA, the calculus changed. All of a sudden, it somehow became a decision between keeping up with the CAA's vision of football (large stadiums, millions in renovations) or... dropping football.

My point is that Northeastern did have options to "save" football if they were serious about it. They could have joined America East in all other sports and played some other brand of football, played Pioneer, etc. But they chose not to. I'm not saying it was a good decision or bad decision. The decision was made on the basis that Northeastern was either going to "play (FCS) big, or not play at all". They tried hard to "play big", and (creditably) almost did so. That's not the same as saving the program - which might have entailed playing at Parsons for a much longer time, being content with fewer scholarships, playing in a different league. Those things could have happened, too, but Northeastern decided that they didn't want to.

FCS football is still a money loser. Basketball has the ability to generate revenue. So saying a school should take a step back in conference membership so that they can sponsor a money losing sport is just bad business. Granted, the travel costs for NU would drop if they were in the AE, a bus league for the most part, vs the CAA which has a ton of flights for their entire sports programs. But when the CAA gets a 2nd NCAA basketball bid, that generates money and awareness for the school...something the AE will not be able to do. NU hoops averaged over 2000 fans for home games last year...which is actually pretty impressive for them.

[RichH2]

Love "oblate speroids" Had some for breakfast today in prep for camp opening next week. The rest will sort itself out by the end of the year. FOOOOOOTBAAAALLLL!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown's preseason cone of silence is rumored to have resulted from widespread oblate speroid use. Truth?

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown's preseason cone of silence is rumored to have resulted from widespread oblate speroid use. Truth?

"Cone of silence"? Maybe "not much going on" would work as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"Cone of silence"? Maybe "not much going on" would work as well.

My bad. I meant mechanically-actuated oblate semispheroid of silence.

[Go...gate]

Can Holy Cross repeat? Can Georgetown get on its feet?

[ngineer]

OK, I'll take a crack at it.

Philadelphia Eagles training camp opened yesterday at Lehigh. Firmly ensconced in the armpit of the Lafayette valley, the professional footballers are forced to suffer the indignities and odors of the Saucon Slums for more than a fortnight. It is considered both hazing for the rookies and as penance for the veterans and coaching staff, who have not won an NFL championship in 50 years. Oddly, the crafty use of computer-aided graphics and photoshop layers makes the brown-stained tundra appear green and the air pure.

The establishment of the Eagles' camp at Lehigh was, of course, a ruse by the Leopards to deprive the brown-panted pigeons of late summer practice time and to despoil completely the practice surfaces in advance of Lehigh players' arrival. Upon becoming president of the Eagles' organization, former Lafayette coach Harry Gamble deliberately moved the team from its digs at West Chester to the former toxic waste facility on South Mountain, thus initiating the steady decline of Lehigh Engineer football into the cesspool it has become today.

Just gettin' some practice in for November . . . . . xnodx


...and you obviously need it.

[Pard94]

Very good for a preseason effort. Of course, by November Pard94 will have boiled it down to 4 letter unprintable invective. That will be me cheering him on.

Oh it will be printable. It starts out completely unfit for broadcast before it undergoes a hours long distilling process until I finally get it ever so slightly under the moderators radar. It's true I have had a few warnings and more than once I have been banished to Smack Talk land but the endeavor is well worth it as I believe my anti-Lehigh vitriol adds to the overall joy of rivalry season. Not to mention...it's very cathartic.

Nice effort by Bogus. I can almost hear Merril Reese delivering that script.

[Bogus Megapardus]

...and you obviously need it.

ngineeer is absolutely correct. Two-a-days through August?

[ngineer]

ngineeer is absolutely correct. Two-a-days through August?

Gawd, how I miss them!xsmiley_wix

[RichH2]

Even tho I am now an old codger, come the end of July every year I get the urge. Strange how much I hated them then( I was 1 of those LM that would up chuck after the 1st set of grass drills) and now I grow nostalgic for them.

[Pard94]

Gawd, how I miss them!xsmiley_wix

I miss many things from my playing days...2 a days does not even remotely make the list.

[Franks Tanks]

Even tho I am now an old codger, come the end of July every year I get the urge. Strange how much I hated them then( I was 1 of those LM that would up chuck after the 1st set of grass drills) and now I grow nostalgic for them.

Now 2 a days on consecuitive days are banned. They do 2-1-2-1 etc. Man those kids have it easy these days!

[Bogus Megapardus]

July 30, 2010

Center Valley, Pa. - The 2010 Patriot League Football season kicks off with Media Day at Green Pond Country Club in the Lehigh Valley on Tuesday at 10 a.m., with coaches, student-athletes and media from around the League coming together just before preseason practices begin.

All seven Patriot League Football head coaches will be in attendance, along with at least two student-athletes from each institution. Student-athletes expected to be on hand for Media Day include preseason All-Americans Nate Eachus (Colgate), Jason Caldwell (Fordham), Nick Parrish (Georgetown), Mude Ohimor (Holy Cross), Michael Schmidlein (Lafayette) and Will Rackley (Lehigh) as well as six additional players that have received at least one All-Patriot League honor, including Colgate quarterback Greg Sullivan. The League's preseason poll and offensive and defensive players of the year will be announced.

While the event is restricted to media members, fans can have their say at media day by submitting a question for a head coach to the Patriot League Facebook and/or Twitter pages. From now until Monday, the Patriot League will take questions at both sites to present to head coaches during their video interviews that will later be posted on both the League website and Facebook page. Facebook followers can go the Patriot League page here and submit a question in the comment section of the football media day post. Twitter users can go to the Patriot League page here and use the @Patriot League function to submit their questions.

This year, followers can also keep track of media day live as the Patriot League staff brings you all of the updates on the Gameday Blog. We'll follow up with audio and video coverage and photos after the event.

The 2010 football season kicks off on Sept. 4, with six of the League's seven teams in action. The first Patriot League game comes the next week with Georgetown visiting Lafayette.


Questions posted on said PL social media sites that won't be answered:

- O'Neil or Quilling at Lafayette?
- Coen's last year if he doesn't go 8-3?
- MSF to be completed within the Rule Against Perpetuities?
- Fordham: will you stay or will you go?
- Offers turned down by Gilmore?
- Results of Colgate AD "world tour"
- Was Bucknell's Susan promised scholarships?
- Any other mention of the "S" word.


Others?

[carney2]

Here's betting that coaches outnumber media types by 2 to 1.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's betting that coaches outnumber media types by 2 to 1.

Do I count as a media type Carney?

Maybe I should ask for questions to pose to members of the PL. :P

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do I count as a media type Carney?

Maybe I should ask for questions to pose to members of the PL. :P

LFN, you have media credentials and I assume you'll be there. Why can't someone ask or submit questions on behalf of AGS, which provides one of the three recognized weekly polls? (Remember, of course, to ask Gilmore if Holy Cross shoulda been in the Big East. We then can wrap that one up once and for all.) You can just make up random rumors and then preface each question with, "It has been reported that . . . . " or "Sources close to the league have suggested that . . . . " and them make them deny (or admit) all kinds of crazy stuff like, oh I don't know, that NJIT has been offered membership or that American is starting a 60-scholarship football team.


Here's betting that coaches outnumber media types by 2 to 1.

Sources close to the league are reporting that Helen Thomas has been located and will be sitting in her customary position in the front row.

[carney2]

Do I count as a media type Carney?

That's one.

[ngineer]

I miss many things from my playing days...2 a days does not even remotely make the list.

Well, actually I was being sarcastic..should have used the 'eye roll'. And RichH2, were you "Earl" or "Ralph"?? When I played, the first to guys to blow lunch (actually breakfast) got those names for the rest of camp.:D

[ngineer]

LFN, you have media credentials and I assume you'll be there. Why can't someone ask or submit questions on behalf of AGS, which provides one of the three recognized weekly polls? (Remember, of course, to ask Gilmore if Holy Cross shoulda been in the Big East. We then can wrap that one up once and for all.) You can just make up random rumors and then preface each question with, "It has been reported that . . . . " or "Sources close to the league have suggested that . . . . " and them make them deny (or admit) all kinds of crazy stuff like, oh I don't know, that NJIT has been offered membership or that American is starting a 60-scholarship football team.



Sources close to the league are reporting that Helen Thomas has been located and will be sitting in her customary position in the front row.xlmaoxxlmaoxxlmaox

[Sader87]

LFN, you have media credentials and I assume you'll be there. Why can't someone ask or submit questions on behalf of AGS, which provides one of the three recognized weekly polls? (Remember, of course, to ask Gilmore if Holy Cross shoulda been in the Big East. We then can wrap that one up once and for all.) You can just make up random rumors and then preface each question with, "It has been reported that . . . . " or "Sources close to the league have suggested that . . . . " and them make them deny (or admit) all kinds of crazy stuff like, oh I don't know, that NJIT has been offered membership or that American is starting a 60-scholarship football team.



Sources close to the league are reporting that Helen Thomas has been located and will be sitting in her customary position in the front row.

For the record, HC was asked to be a member in the BE as a basketball member not football, which didn't exist as a football playing league for another decade or so....however, our decision not to join the BE very much could be seen as the genesis of the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

For the record, HC was asked to be a member in the BE as a basketball member not football, which didn't exist as a football playing league for another decade or so....however, our decision not to join the BE very much could be seen as the genesis of the PL.

Details, details. I just want to hear someone say with straight face, a serious tone and a boom microphone, "Coach Gilmore, individuals with knowledge of the administration's thinking and strategic initiatives have been reporting to us that Holy Cross shoulda been in the Big East. Your reaction, sir?"

[DFW HOYA]

For the record, HC was asked to be a member in the BE as a basketball member not football, which didn't exist as a football playing league for another decade or so....however, our decision not to join the BE very much could be seen as the genesis of the PL.

And for the record, the order of invites:

1. Organizing members: Georgetown, Syracuse, Providence, St. John's
2. Connecticut: Accepted
3. Boston College and Holy Cross: BC accepts, HC (read=Brooks) passes
4. Rutgers: Declines
5. Seton Hall (replacement for Rutgers): Accepts
6. Villanova: Accepts, but after completing 1979-80 in the Eastern Eight.

No other schools were invited at that time. Had all original invites been accepted, the Big East would have been Boston College, Connecticut, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Providence, Rutgers, Syracuse, St. John's, and Villanova.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And for the record, the order of invites:

1. Organizing members: Georgetown, Syracuse, Providence, St. John's
2. Connecticut: Accepted
3. Boston College and Holy Cross: BC accepts, HC (read=Brooks) passes
4. Rutgers: Declines
5. Seton Hall (replacement for Rutgers): Accepts
6. Villanova: Accepts, but after completing 1979-80 in the Eastern Eight.

No other schools were invited at that time. Had all original invites been accepted, the Big East would have been Boston College, Connecticut, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Providence, Rutgers, Syracuse, St. John's, and Villanova.

Still doesn't answer the question, though.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Questions posted on said PL social media sites that won't be answered:

- O'Neil or Quilling at Lafayette?
- Coen's last year if he doesn't go 8-3?
- MSF to be completed within the Rule Against Perpetuities?
- Fordham: will you stay or will you go?
- Offers turned down by Gilmore?
- Results of Colgate AD "world tour"
- Was Bucknell's Susan promised scholarships?
- Any other mention of the "S" word.


Others?

1. Quilling
2. Coen would likely get another year if the LU goes 7-4 given their schedule. Anything less and he is done. Cecchini would obviously take over.
3. No
4. Stay
5. 3 but he leaves on the 4th
6. To become more like Richmond and Furman which is a good thing
7. No, but they'll eventually join the schollie train
8. Not until November

[TheValleyRaider]

2. Coen would likely get another year if the LU goes 7-4 given their schedule. Anything less and he is done. Cecchini would obviously take over.

Cecchini is the designated heir already? What if those late game struggles continue as a result of the offense?


6. To become more like Richmond and Furman which is a good thing

If that includes the National Title(s), I'll take it no questions asked xnodx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Cecchini is the designated heir already? What if those late game struggles continue as a result of the offense?

The late game struggles haven't been the offenses fault in some contests. Case in point '08 against Colgate. There's not a doubt in my mind that offense will be better. However, that might not be what ends up being the problem. It will come down to intangibles imo. The pieces are there. Offensively, skill position players will be working behind a tremendous offensive line.

[RichH2]

LU has lots of good skill kids on O, so far none have stepped up to be a difference maker. Colvin has ability to be that if healthy. we need a wr or 2 to step up. Depth in skill kids excellent, no real fall off but so far no great upside either. OL gives us an edge and that is one area where experienced depth is thin. Lippincott and Rugg will help there.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I still maintain that Bucknell is the wild card this season. Two more Bison wins will throw the whole league askew. New HC will have a whole new system, but does anyone here think for a minute those guys will need more than an afternoon to memorize the playbook? I expect a pro-style attack and a lot more passing with complex routes. Provided they add enough beef to the OL to protect Hopson (assuming he starts) I'm concerned. This game comes on the road for us before Colgate and I'd hate to see a letdown that could ruin the season.

[Go...gate]

For the record, HC was asked to be a member in the BE as a basketball member not football, which didn't exist as a football playing league for another decade or so....however, our decision not to join the BE very much could be seen as the genesis of the PL.

Unlikely. At the time Big East was formed (1979), few, if any of the "Major Independents" playing Football intended to relinquish that status. Syracuse was building the Carrier Dome and was publicly committed to Division I football, as were Rutgers, Boston College, West Virginia and Penn State, not to mention Holy Cross, Army, Navy, Colgate, Lafayette and Temple. The Patriot League was not even a twinkle an anyone's eye, Holy Cross included.

[DFW HOYA]

It was my understanding that the move by the Ivy League to drop all eight schools to I-AA (three actually met I-A requirements) led the Ivies to seek out other I-AA schools that would provide fair competition. Owing that Rev. Brooks was not comfortable with Holy Cross among I-A (much less Big East) schools, Derek Bok's dialogue with Brooks initiated the formation of a league that would serve to provide a competitive option for the Ivies.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It was my understanding that the move by the Ivy League to drop all eight schools to I-AA (three actually met I-A requirements) led the Ivies to seek out other I-AA schools that would provide fair competition. Owing that Rev. Brooks was not comfortable with Holy Cross among I-A (much less Big East) schools, Derek Bok's dialogue with Brooks initiated the formation of a league that would serve to provide a competitive option for the Ivies.

That's the story. Holy Cross d̶̶̶̶r̶̶a̶̶n̶̶k̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶̶̶̶̶h̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶k̶̶o̶̶o̶̶l̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶d̶̶e took the bait but William & Mary wouldn't.


Unlikely. At the time Big East was formed (1979), few, if any of the "Major Independents" playing Football intended to relinquish that status. Syracuse was building the Carrier Dome and was publicly committed to Division I football, as were Rutgers, Boston College, West Virginia and Penn State, not to mention Holy Cross, Army, Navy, Colgate, Lafayette and Temple. The Patriot League was not even a twinkle an anyone's eye, Holy Cross included.

Also, the existing (albeit somewhat informal) "Middle Three Conference" had a lot to do with it. A typical mid-seventies Rutgers slate looks a lot like what a scholarship Patriot League schedule might look like today:

Lehigh
Princeton
Massachusetts
Lafayette
Delaware
Columbia
Bucknell
Connecticut
Air Force
Holy Cross
Colgate

The "Middle Three" (Rutgers/Lehigh/Lafayette), which competed since at least 1929, was the natural precursor to the PL. Plug in Rutgers if you're the opponent and you have a schedule I, for one, certainly could live with.

[Sader87]

It was my understanding that the move by the Ivy League to drop all eight schools to I-AA (three actually met I-A requirements) led the Ivies to seek out other I-AA schools that would provide fair competition. Owing that Rev. Brooks was not comfortable with Holy Cross among I-A (much less Big East) schools, Derek Bok's dialogue with Brooks initiated the formation of a league that would serve to provide a competitive option for the Ivies.

Agreed DFW, but my point was/is, that by HC choosing not to join the BE in hoop started the germination process if you will of finding another league more appropriate (in some eyes) for the school. The IL reclassifying to 1-AA basically cemented the process.

[Go...gate]

It was my understanding that the move by the Ivy League to drop all eight schools to I-AA (three actually met I-A requirements) led the Ivies to seek out other I-AA schools that would provide fair competition. Owing that Rev. Brooks was not comfortable with Holy Cross among I-A (much less Big East) schools, Derek Bok's dialogue with Brooks initiated the formation of a league that would serve to provide a competitive option for the Ivies.

That is correct in part. Bok, Brooks, President Bill Bowen and administrator Tony Maruca from Princeton, President Peter Likens of Lehigh and, apparantly, President George Langdon of Colgate were also involved.