Can Lehigh recover from 0-4?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/10/sundays-word-faith.html

Can Lehigh recover from this disastrous start? Like my "Sunday Word" says, there is not a lot of faith right now with the fans that it will be turned around. But theoretically, it could.

First, they would have to beat Georgetown - a team that has never beaten us. Then beat Yale - a team that struggled in two of their first three games. Then they'd have to beat Bucknell - a team that Lehigh also has beaten many times.

As bad as Lehigh has looked, if they win these next three games they can get a head of steam before some big conference games. They won't be favored in any of them, but they at least would have a chance to play some more meaningful football with some momentum. They might even have some fans behind them, too.

To me, the only hope is that this football team takes this hand they've been dealt and turn it into a team-building experience - an "us versus them" attitude. "Nobody believes in us except ourselves." And as a result from that, the turnovers would go down, execution would get better, wins would start happening, and momentum would (perhaps) build.

Is there a chance of this happening?

[Pard94]

Nope.

[crusader11]

Don't see it.

[Pard4Life]

Definite win: Gtown
Toss-up: Bucknell, Yale
Maybe: Fordham, if having identity issues still

[Doc QB]

Don't see it improving. The athletes are there. The coaching is not. Someone has spread the statistic around related to the number of close loses LU has had in the Coen era....that is directly a coaching deficiency. The offense has not flavor, other than failed smash mouth, gimmicky (sp?) wildcat BS. No identity there.

You can look at the laundry list of former assistants who have gone on and done well...from a time when LU had an offensive identity and more success (Higgins, Clawson, Cecchini). What is unfortunate, is that Coen was one of them, but did his UPenn team light up the skies like LU of old? No doubt they were successful when he was OC there, but what was his offense like then? What does he do now and how much is he involved with offensive game planning and play calling?

What people forget, is that all of the guys I have up there in parentheses were all around Hank Small and his juggernaut offense. Thru all of them, they kept pieces of his system, adapting pass patterns/audibles/packages/check-offs and shotgun schemes and such to the QB of the day. They just don't have it now. We DARED you to blitz, because we were trained to beat it well. Glenn Kempa was sacked in single digits in this JR at the helm, his first as a starter. Excellent O-line schemes, chemisty and coaching allowed him to know what he had, find the route, hit it. Then senior year, we r 9-2, he throws for an ungodly amount of TDs and yards, sacked like 11 times all year. Small's overall record maybe forgettable to some, but the offense, to me, should never be.

Yes, I think they may struggle, and not due to lack to talent but coaching.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Almost no chance. The root of the problem is coaching and until that changes the product on the field will not improve. 3-8 seems realistic with 4-7 being the best case at this point.

[RichH2]

I think we are all agreed that Coaching on the offensive side is pathetic. Doc has summarized what many of us have been saying for years. Air Lehigh guaranteed points and excitement , when properly taught. Small started it and all used and continue to use varieties of it successfully. Why Coen decided not to is a mystery to all of us. That O is not a panacea for a winning season ( look at Small ) but it is fun and with a rb and some D it is magnificent ( Higgins and Lembo). The stultifying mish mash we are running now appears to be someone picking up ideas from TV games. No consistency. No over all plan. Has anyone seen any 4 wr sets?
Some of the issues may be caused by rookie qbs. I doubt it tho? With a set ongoing O, your upperclassmen know the plan, much easier to fit in new players each year.
Problem for me is I like Andy and he has had great success as an OC and I think he can be a good HC with the right staff. He is not one yet and until he can manage his staff he will not be one. Loyalty is an excellent trait and one he should be admired for but when something is not working it becomes destructive for everyone team, HC and staff member.

Faith, afraid I am running low on any optimism now. More important that players maintain that faith. They seem to still have it. NEED at least 2-3 wins now to keep it.
Lots of talented players but not many difference makers. D ,How many takeaways? O How many game winning plays?

These kids have the ability but they must be put into a position to learn how to win and build confidence that they will win.

During the good years we won a lot of games, not because we were that much betterbut because the teamexpected to win and opponent did not.

I thought Coen got that during the last half of last season. I was wrong.


Faith , I want to but sadly I dont see any reason for it yet.


Dont get me wrong, I will still root just as hard as I have for the last 40years for Lehigh. Thebestwe can do this year is 5-6. I dont really see us beating LC. 3-8 real possibility. I will go into fan mode each week however, in that mode we will go 7-4 and lose in the 1st round of the playoffs.

[Franks Tanks]

I think we are all agreed that Coaching on the offensive side is pathetic. Doc has summarized what many of us have been saying for years. Air Lehigh guaranteed points and excitement , when properly taught. Small started it and all used and continue to use varieties of it successfully. Why Coen decided not to is a mystery to all of us. That O is not a panacea for a winning season ( look at Small ) but it is fun and with a rb and some D it is magnificent ( Higgins and Lembo). The stultifying mish mash we are running now appears to be someone picking up ideas from TV games. No consistency. No over all plan. Has anyone seen any 4 wr sets?
Some of the issues may be caused by rookie qbs. I doubt it tho? With a set ongoing O, your upperclassmen know the plan, much easier to fit in new players each year.
Problem for me is I like Andy and he has had great success as an OC and I think he can be a good HC with the right staff. He is not one yet and until he can manage his staff he will not be one. Loyalty is an excellent trait and one he should be admired for but when something is not working it becomes destructive for everyone team, HC and staff member.

Faith, afraid I am running low on any optimism now. More important that players maintain that faith. They seem to still have it. NEED at least 2-3 wins now to keep it.
Lots of talented players but not many difference makers. D ,How many takeaways? O How many game winning plays?

These kids have the ability but they must be put into a position to learn how to win and build confidence that they will win.

During the good years we won a lot of games, not because we were that much betterbut because the teamexpected to win and opponent did not.

I thought Coen got that during the last half of last season. I was wrong.


Faith , I want to but sadly I dont see any reason for it yet.


If you look at the Penn stats from when Andy was the O-cordinator it was quite impressive. The Quakers scored more points in Andy's years than the last few since he has left. Granted the Penn teams appear less talented over the last few years compared to the earlier part of the decade, but no doubt Coen conducted a very effective offense at Penn.

Perhaps Andy is simply a poor head coach who made some bad hires on his staff. He will be gone and go on the be a successful O-cordinator or perhaps D-III head coach, which is really where he belongs.

However this Leopard fan hopes Andy gets a few more years to figure it out!

[RichH2]

Ok, Tanksxlolx, doubt he will but you best hope he doesn't repeat last year and put something together for PL seasonxthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

The other question is, of course, can Georgetown recover from 0-5, and how many 0-fers will it take for the PL to take notice?

Since 2006, Georgetown is 1-19 (.050) in the PL, 0-8 against Ivy teams and a combined 3-31 (.088) to schools not named Marist College. This isn't some freshman team with a new coach, either--Georgetown has 22 seniors on the roster and they've won five games in four years.

Three years ago, Charlie Houghton was PL Rookie of the Year. As a senior, he's at 132 yards five games into the season... not a huge surprise given that Georgetown ranks last in the nation in scoring. What does that do for recruiting?

Those kind of numbers send the wrong message to potential PL expansion targets that new schools are not automatically confined to 10-15 years in the cellar as condition of membership (which is exactly what happened to Fordham, BTW). Or maybe that's fine with the PL, as long as there's an autobid.

[Pard94]

The other question is, of course, can Georgetown recover from 0-5, and how many 0-fers will it take for the PL to take notice?

Since 2006, Georgetown is 1-19 (.050) in the PL, 0-8 against Ivy teams and a combined 3-31 (.088) to schools not named Marist College. This isn't some freshman team with a new coach, either--Georgetown has 22 seniors on the roster and they've won five games in four years.

Three years ago, Charlie Houghton was PL Rookie of the Year. As a senior, he's at 132 yards five games into the season... not a huge surprise given that Georgetown ranks last in the nation in scoring. What does that do for recruiting?

Those kind of numbers send the wrong message to potential PL expansion targets that new schools are not automatically confined to 10-15 years in the cellar as condition of membership (which is exactly what happened to Fordham, BTW). Or maybe that's fine with the PL, as long as there's an autobid.

I'm not sure I follow. As the kids like to say these days, "Don't hate the player. Hate the game". How's it the league's fault that Fordham and now Georgetown struggled for years before finding their stride (or not)? What would you have the league do? Revenue sharing? Obamacare? Should we spot you 14 points for every game to which you show up? The fact of the matter is Georgetown (and by that I mean your administration) needs to put up or shut up. I've always conteded that you guys are the sleeping giant of the PL. You have the best academic reputation of all of the members. You are located in a major metrpolitan area that offers the promise of excellent job opportunities upon graduation and you are located in a beautiful part of town. I've changed my mind. I don't think you're a sleeping giant anymore. It's clear to me now, as smart as you Georgetown folk are, when it comes to football you can't get out of your own way. It's a shame. Georgetown could have been great in football. Now I am awaiting the announcement that Georgetown is getting out of the PL and dropping back down to Division III. it almost seems inevidible at this point. I pray I am wrong. I think GU is a perfect match for the Patriot. It should, in fact, be a cornerstone institution of the league. :(

[Go...gate]

I'm not sure I follow. As the kids like to say these days, "Don't hate the player. Hate the game". How's it the league's fault that Fordham and now Georgetown struggled for years before finding their stride (or not)? What would you have the league do? Revenue sharing? Obamacare? Should we spot you 14 points for every game to which you show up? The fact of the matter is Georgetown (and by that I mean your administration) needs to put up or shut up. I've always conteded that you guys are the sleeping giant of the PL. You have the best academic reputation of all of the members. You are located in a major metrpolitan area that offers the promise of excellent job opportunities upon graduation and you are located in a beautiful part of town. I've changed my mind. I don't think you're a sleeping giant anymore. It's clear to me now, as smart as you Georgetown folk are, when it comes to football you can't get out of your own way. It's a shame. Georgetown could have been great in football. Now I am awaiting the announcement that Georgetown is getting out of the PL and dropping back down to Division III. it almost seems inevidible at this point. I pray I am wrong. I think GU is a perfect match for the Patriot. It should, in fact, be a cornerstone institution of the league. :(

I haven't changed my mind, but it is becoming clear that Georgetown's Jesuits need to take a couple of seminars in Chestnut Hill, MA (Boston College)* about "you can have capable teams in BOTH basketball and football and not compromse your academic identity, and jeepers! you might even raise a few more dollars in the process!"

*See, also South Bend, IN/Notre Dame.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not sure I follow. As the kids like to say these days, "Don't hate the player. Hate the game". How's it the league's fault that Fordham and now Georgetown struggled for years before finding their stride (or not)?

Academic index notwithstanding, it's not the league's fault. But the question remains: what is the effect on league reputation and/or expansion when associate member schools become semi-permanent residents in the PL cellar.


I haven't changed my mind, but it is becoming clear that Georgetown's Jesuits need to take a couple of seminars in Chestnut Hill, MA (Boston College)* about "you can have capable teams in BOTH basketball and football and not compromse your academic identity..."

I'll leave that softball pitch for some HC fan to knock it out of the park.

[colorless raider]

Academic index notwithstanding, it's not the league's fault. But the question remains: what is the effect on league reputation and/or expansion when associate member schools become semi-permanent residents in the PL cellar.



I'll leave that softball pitch for some HC fan to knock it out of the park.

DFW,

Face facts the PL will go scholarship. What will the Hoyas do??

1.Drop football

2. Continue the the PL but not offer scholarships

3. Rejoin the NEC

3. Go DivIII

[DFW HOYA]

DFW,

Face facts the PL will go scholarship. What will the Hoyas do??

1.Drop football
2. Continue the the PL but not offer scholarships
3. Rejoin the NEC
3. Go DivIII

1. No.
2. Don't know.
3. No (never was in the NEC)
4. No.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Coen and his staff have not put the players in a position to win. The reason i thought highly of Lembo was his ability to utilize what he had. He made Kyle Keating in to a very good FCS QB and more importantly in to a winner. I still think that the 2003 team was the best he had possibly, especially on defense. He used Borda well by maximizing his passing ability. Then with Threatt be basically used the West Virginia offense. Higgins did the same thing before most people ran it with Hall. Threatt prospered running the Ball, Rath was a tough, fast runner and he had speed at wr. Coen and his staff came in and ruined Threatt imo. In the right offense Threatt was good enough to beat almost any team at this level. Lembo i believe only went through 1 year with the starting QB making it 11 games, 2004 being the exception. Coen and his staff haven't been able to develop one. Until the staff shows an ability to get the most out of their talent and maybe for once over achieve, then they'll be hope. But after 4 years and no sign of progress i think it's safe to draw conclusions

[carney2]

Those next 3 look like probable wins to me (but so did Princeton and you see what happened there). What does that buy them? A ticket to the slaughter house because they look like a 1-3 team down the stretch.

[colorless raider]

1. No.
2. Don't know.
3. No (never was in the NEC)
4. No.

So you are clueless and don't even have an opinion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those next 3 look like probable wins to me (but so did Princeton and you see what happened there). What does that buy them? A ticket to the slaughter house because they look like a 1-3 team down the stretch.

A compelling argument until you consider that 2006 Lafayette team that went 2-5, lost to Holy Cross, then came from behind at Colgate and won the PL title.

I'm not saying that it will happen here. But there is at least some sort-of precedent. To add to this visual, Lafayette walloped Sacred Heart and Bucknell that year and lost to H-Y-P-P and Holy Cross. before turning things around. And while Princeton was co-champs with Yale and Harvard was good, Penn was a .500 team.

[Franks Tanks]

A compelling argument until you consider that 2006 Lafayette team that went 2-5, lost to Holy Cross, then came from behind at Colgate and won the PL title.

I'm not saying that it will happen here. But there is at least some sort-of precedent. To add to this visual, Lafayette walloped Sacred Heart and Bucknell that year and lost to H-Y-P-P and Holy Cross. before turning things around. And while Princeton was co-champs with Yale and Harvard was good, Penn was a .500 team.

2006 was a bad year for the PL. We really backed into that title somehow.

This year Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette have fared very well against the Ivies so far, so it looks to be a stronger year at the top. The PL champ this year may go undefeated or have one or two loses max.

[Fordham]

Definite win: Gtown
Toss-up: Bucknell, Yale
Maybe: Fordham, if having identity issues still

Agree


The other question is, of course, can Georgetown recover from 0-5, and how many 0-fers will it take for the PL to take notice?

Since 2006, Georgetown is 1-19 (.050) in the PL, 0-8 against Ivy teams and a combined 3-31 (.088) to schools not named Marist College. This isn't some freshman team with a new coach, either--Georgetown has 22 seniors on the roster and they've won five games in four years.

Three years ago, Charlie Houghton was PL Rookie of the Year. As a senior, he's at 132 yards five games into the season... not a huge surprise given that Georgetown ranks last in the nation in scoring. What does that do for recruiting?

Those kind of numbers send the wrong message to potential PL expansion targets that new schools are not automatically confined to 10-15 years in the cellar as condition of membership (which is exactly what happened to Fordham, BTW). Or maybe that's fine with the PL, as long as there's an autobid.

Fordham pulled their way out by comitting resources to the program. We spend more overall than every other PL school and are on par with the top of FCS in total spending and this helps us offset some other big deficiencies such as facilities.

Georgetown just got a huge boost in the changed AI where a football player at Georgetown no longer has to be representative of the students at Georgetown. No, if you play football you only have representative of the average student at Fordham. That spread is a huge gift provided to Georgetown, et.al. and all I can take from your commentary above is that the league still isn't doing enough for you. Not sure what else you want in terms of more handouts but there is a colossal difference between how Fordham got out of the role of perennial cellar dweller and how Georgetown has been trying to.

That the PL should make further commitments to facilitate Georgetown's success when Georgetown refuses to commit themselves to any level of success is absurd imo.

[Digby]

Georgetown's futility does not send any message to potential members (who are these schools, I wonder) except that there is a team they can beat easily. Most leagues have doormats and sometimes the doormats are down for a long time.
Unless the NCAA has changed its rules, a school that plays D1 in basketball cannot drop to D3 for football. If they have football, it must be D1 or 1AA. Or whatever dopey acronym they use now.
As for Lehigh, the team is bad, the QB situation is now worse than before and the coach is not in a position to play younger guys more for the sake of future improvement. That is the only thing that can come out of a bad year, but this coach is not looking toward 2010 right now.
What I do not understand is how, in the fourth year, the team still appears to be disorganized so often.

[Digby]

Rutgers was the Big East doormat for a long time (in fact, until the league told Temple they were going to be ejected in two years, Temple had never even finished last because Rutgers was below them).
They got out of the basement with some scheduling followed by recruiting.

[crusader11]

They got out of the basement with some scheduling followed by recruiting.

and Greg Schiano.

[bkrownd]

There were brief but regular flashes of hope at Rutsgerz about every decade. Who knows if it will continue.

[Pard94]

The message that Georgetown's futility in football sends the rest of the football world is that Georgetown's effort at football is futile.

[carney2]

A compelling argument until you consider that 2006 Lafayette team that went 2-5, lost to Holy Cross, then came from behind at Colgate and won the PL title.

I'm not saying that it will happen here. But there is at least some sort-of precedent. To add to this visual, Lafayette walloped Sacred Heart and Bucknell that year and lost to H-Y-P-P and Holy Cross. before turning things around. And while Princeton was co-champs with Yale and Harvard was good, Penn was a .500 team.

At he moment - and repeating, at the moment - Holy Cross and Lafayette look like a lot more than the ChickenSquawks can handle. And while (in my opinion) the jury's still out on Colgate, they are probably in that boat too.

[ngineer]

Can Lehigh recover? Yes. Will they? Not the way they are playing. You rarely win turning over the football 4-5 times a game. I won't belabor that which I've posted on the Harvard-Lehigh thread, and which others have posted above.

However, Lehigh is a talented team that is getting screwed up. Andy has got to straighten it out, now, or he'll be history; if not this year, next. The offense starts only one senior, and while the QBs problems have been highlighted, the young WRs have had trouble getting open. Unfortunately, I'm not confident the two coaches in charge of these two areas are up to it. You don't need blazing speed to get open. We had numerous WRs over the years who showed that, and the same in the NFL. Being able to find the seams in a zone and running crisp routes with timing with the QB are things that have to be drilled and taught, taught and drilled. The kids have shown to have good hands. They need to get open, and when they are, the QBs need to find them.

Realistically, 4-7 seems likely; however, with some momentum after, hopefully three straight wins over Gtown, Yale and Bucknell, in this game, anything is possible if people start believing in themselves. If they can go in to Colgate and pull an upset, then you might be able to unleash something. But at the moment, it's one step at a time and build on it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can Lehigh recover? Yes. Will they? Not the way they are playing...

Realistically, 4-7 seems likely; however, with some momentum after, hopefully three straight wins over Gtown, Yale and Bucknell, in this game, anything is possible if people start believing in themselves. If they can go in to Colgate and pull an upset, then you might be able to unleash something. But at the moment, it's one step at a time and build on it.

I pretty much agree. A win over G'Town first, hopefully a resounding one. Then take next week as it comes.

[RichH2]

Momentum is a wonderful concept but it works both ways. Positive MO possible if he can get some Ws over the next 3 weeks. Actually we need to win all 3. I predict that we will have 1 game that we put it all together vs 1 of the BIG 3.

WRs less drops than we've had last couple of yrs. Can tell that qb and wrs not always in sync. Separation not very good yet. Zurn does well. Surprised not to see Artrim in . He is very good at getting open. Slippery little bugger.

[DFW HOYA]

The message that Georgetown's futility in football sends the rest of the football world is that Georgetown's effort at football is futile.

If Lafayette had Georgetown's budget, it'd look futile too.

[letsgopards04]

nope

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown just got a huge boost in the changed AI where a football player at Georgetown no longer has to be representative of the students at Georgetown. No, if you play football you only have representative of the average student at Fordham. That spread is a huge gift provided to Georgetown, et.al. and all I can take from your commentary above is that the league still isn't doing enough for you. Not sure what else you want in terms of more handouts but there is a colossal difference between how Fordham got out of the role of perennial cellar dweller and how Georgetown has been trying to.

Fordham fans seem to have quite a problem with the AI--no one mentions how Colgate and Lehigh will get a better deal, only that it hurts Fordham (for as long as they stay).

I've never asked for a PL "handout" but I remain unconvinced that AI tweaking really changes Georgetown's standing in the long run. The bands get wider but getting them to commit with significantly less aid than Fordham's free ride makes it no less difficult.