Pioneer League: Playoffs, Here We Come

[TexasTerror]

Just rec'd word that the Pioneer League will soon, if they have not already, begin the application process to gain an automatic qualifier into the Division I Football Championship.

The league presidents voted unanimously to support the decision and now it falls into the hands of the NCAA. The Pioneer, to my knowledge, meets all the requirements.

I'd expect the NCAA to at least hold off the Pioneer's admittance until 2011, if not 2012 - with a similar 'bridge' that the NEC was granted.

[mcveyrl]

Just rec'd word that the Pioneer League will soon, if they have not already, begin the application process to gain an automatic qualifier into the Division I Football Championship.

The league presidents voted unanimously to support the decision and now it falls into the hands of the NCAA. The Pioneer, to my knowledge, meets all the requirements.

I'd expect the NCAA to at least hold off the Pioneer's admittance until 2011, if not 2012 - with a similar 'bridge' that the NEC was granted.

Wouldn't this mean a further expansion of the playoffs?

[GannonFan]

Sweet - this should grow the playoffs to 24 teams now, meaning that there'll be even more at larges for the CAA to claim. The days of 8 CAA teams in the playoffs is fast approaching!!!!!! Thank you Pioneer League!!!! xlolxxlolxxlolx:p

[danefan]

The playoffs can expand to 22 teams without adding any real administrative costs. I think this is probably going to be a done deal.

Now lets hope the PFL teams can get back to the quality of play they exhibited in 06 and 07 (San Diego and Dayton) rather than what we saw last year (Jacksonville) and this year so far.

The PFL winners of 06 and 07 would have competed in the first round much the same as other lower FCS conferences. Jacksonville from last year would have gotten killed and I haven't seen anything from any team this year that indicates they can compete in the first round.

[DetroitFlyer]

The playoffs can expand to 22 teams without adding any real administrative costs. I think this is probably going to be a done deal.

Now lets hope the PFL teams can get back to the quality of play they exhibited in 06 and 07 (San Diego and Dayton) rather than what we saw last year (Jacksonville) and this year so far.

The PFL winners of 06 and 07 would have competed in the first round much the same as other lower FCS conferences. Jacksonville from last year would have gotten killed and I haven't seen anything from any team this year that indicates they can compete in the first round.

Pretty much sounds just like the NEC this season.... How exactly has the NEC favorite this year performed against traditional FCS teams...? Probably a good chance that they lay another 0-fer this year.... And yet, the NEC will enjoy a playoff bid next year.... Scheduling traditional FCS teams and then losing to them does not make a conference more playoff worthy....

It is not about the performance in any given season. It is 100% about meeting the NCAA requirements for an autobid, and then requesting an autobid. The PFL is now reported to have done both or will so shortly, (I too have heard that the Presidents approved). Teams and conferences are going to go up and down over the years.... Many FCS conferences have performed exceptionally poorly in the playoffs, yet they meet the requirements, requested an automatic bid, received it, and participated in the playoffs. FCS is not just about the CAA, SoCon, and MVC or whatever the Gateway Conference is called these days....

Good for the PFL. Now, I just hope the NCAA does the right thing and grants a bid to the league. I for one cannot wait to travel to Dayton's first FCS playoff game....

[UAalum72]

Speaking of the MVC, will the Pioneer League start to administer itself, or will it continue with a president serving two masters and the inherent conflict of interest?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I for one cannot wait to travel to Dayton's first FCS playoff game....

It will be on the road. Oh, and by the way, Urbana.

[GannonFan]

I agree with DF (amazing, isn't it?) - I've always said that if the PFL wants in, then hey, let them in. There are plenty of conferences that are non-factors in the playoffs already, what's the big deal with one more? Where we've disagreed is that I never thought it was an NCAA or other conferences conspiracy to keep them out, but rather a decision by the members of the PFL not to pursue the playoffs. Obviously, they have now decided to join the playoffs and I see no reason why the NCAA will say no. It's just a question of when now, and I'd be shocked if they weren't granted an autobid by 2013 at the latest.

Like I said, I've got no problem with this. A 22 or 24 team playoff is no different than a 20 team one since that already includes an extra week. What this does is just add a lot more at larges to the mix and as a supporter of a team from a conference that should, most years, dominate the filling of those at large spots, I'm certainly happy. xthumbsupx

[danefan]

Pretty much sounds just like the NEC this season.... How exactly has the NEC favorite this year performed against traditional FCS teams...? Probably a good chance that they lay another 0-fer this year.... And yet, the NEC will enjoy a playoff bid next year.... Scheduling traditional FCS teams and then losing to them does not make a conference more playoff worthy....

It is not about the performance in any given season. It is 100% about meeting the NCAA requirements for an autobid, and then requesting an autobid. The PFL is now reported to have done both or will so shortly, (I too have heard that the Presidents approved). Teams and conferences are going to go up and down over the years.... Many FCS conferences have performed exceptionally poorly in the playoffs, yet they meet the requirements, requested an automatic bid, received it, and participated in the playoffs. FCS is not just about the CAA, SoCon, and MVC or whatever the Gateway Conference is called these days....

Good for the PFL. Now, I just hope the NCAA does the right thing and grants a bid to the league. I for one cannot wait to travel to Dayton's first FCS playoff game....

Do you really want to compare the NEC's OOC results so far with that of the PFL?

The PFL has 4 sub-DI loses already.

But you're right - the PFL's AQ isn't about anything but meeting the NCAA requirements, which they do.

[henfan]

Half the CAA in the playoffs. Gotta love it.

Thanks PFL.xthumbsupx

[aceinthehole]

I agree with DF (amazing, isn't it?) - I've always said that if the PFL wants in, then hey, let them in. There are plenty of conferences that are non-factors in the playoffs already, what's the big deal with one more? Where we've disagreed is that I never thought it was an NCAA or other conferences conspiracy to keep them out, but rather a decision by the members of the PFL not to pursue the playoffs. Obviously, they have now decided to join the playoffs and I see no reason why the NCAA will say no. It's just a question of when now, and I'd be shocked if they weren't granted an autobid by 2013 at the latest.

I agree. If they meet the requirements (6 teams, etc) they should be granted the AQ. Remember, the NEC and BS were granted the playoff spot based on the NCAA principal of EQUAL ACCESS for conference champions; its was not based on on-the-field performance or number of scholarships.

Now, IMO the NEC did most of the hard work making this case to the NCAA and football committe, and it took us YEARS to gain our rightful access. I welcome the PFL to the party, but since the hard work was already put in by the NEC officials, I'd like to see them wait until at least 2014 before granting the full AQ status. I suggest the "earned access" option is granted to the PFL champ for 2010-2013.

[danefan]

I agree. If they meet the requirements (6 teams, etc) they should be granted the AQ. Remember, the NEC and BS were granted the playoff spot based on the NCAA principal of EQUAL ACCESS for conference champions; its was not based on on-the-field performance or number of scholarships.

Now, IMO the NEC did most of the hard work making this case to the NCAA and football committe, and it took us YEARS to gain our rightful access. I welcome the PFL to the party, but since the hard work was already put in by the NEC officials, I'd like to see them wait until at least 2014 before granting the full AQ status. I suggest the "earned access" option is granted to the PFL champ for 2010-2013.

Agreed. The Big South and NEC had to wait. Maybe the PFL should have to as well. I think it will help raise the level of play in the PFL if they try to make the playoffs under the bridge requirements.

[DetroitFlyer]

Agreed. The Big South and NEC had to wait. Maybe the PFL should have to as well. I think it will help raise the level of play in the PFL if they try to make the playoffs under the bridge requirements.

It has not helped the NEC at all. I said when it first came out that the only way the NEC ever receives a playoff bid, is from an autobid. Yep, I was right again. The bridge concept was simply to appease those in the NCAA who could not stand that there was no valid reason for keeping the NEC from having an autobid. The NEC decided to play nice, and even gave in by adding additional scholarships.... Frankly, a lawsuit was in order, but the NEC wanted to work within the system. No doubt whatsoever that the NEC did ALL of the hard work. If the PFL ever obtains a bid, it will be 100% due to the efforts of the NEC. Hopefully, the folks that stood in the way of the NEC for many years are now too old or senile to be a factor today. There should be no need to "punish" the PFL with a so called bridge requirement.... In fact, I would also say that the NEC and Albany in particular blazed the trail by scheduling traditional teams and then winning a few. Now the PFL is in the same mode. Most of you seem to want to focus on this season, but the PFL has played traditional teams, (including this season). Both Butler and Valpo will be playing YSU in the next few years. I heard that Dayton was inches away from playing a traditional team, but it fell through at the last minute. I'm confident that it will happen in the near future. The PFL is finally embracing FCS and I only see good things going forward. But this is the NCAA so only time will tell....

[danefan]

It has not helped the NEC at all. I said when it first came out that the only way the NEC ever receives a playoff bid, is from an autobid. Yep, I was right again. The bridge concept was simply to appease those in the NCAA who could not stand that there was no valid reason for keeping the NEC from having an autobid. The NEC decided to play nice, and even gave in by adding additional scholarships.... Frankly, a lawsuit was in order, but the NEC wanted to work within the system. No doubt whatsoever that the NEC did ALL of the hard work. If the PFL ever obtains a bid, it will be 100% due to the efforts of the NEC. Hopefully, the folks that stood in the way of the NEC for many years are now too old or senile to be a factor today. There should be no need to "punish" the PFL with a so called bridge requirement.... In fact, I would also say that the NEC and Albany in particular blazed the trail by scheduling traditional teams and then winning a few. Now the PFL is in the same mode. Most of you seem to want to focus on this season, but the PFL has played traditional teams, (including this season). Both Butler and Valpo will be playing YSU in the next few years. I heard that Dayton was inches away from playing a traditional team, but it fell through at the last minute. I'm confident that it will happen in the near future. The PFL is finally embracing FCS and I only see good things going forward. But this is the NCAA so only time will tell....


That's the key. Hopefully the future scheduling will show that is true.

[OL FU]

I agree with DF (amazing, isn't it?) - I've always said that if the PFL wants in, then hey, let them in. There are plenty of conferences that are non-factors in the playoffs already, what's the big deal with one more? Where we've disagreed is that I never thought it was an NCAA or other conferences conspiracy to keep them out, but rather a decision by the members of the PFL not to pursue the playoffs. Obviously, they have now decided to join the playoffs and I see no reason why the NCAA will say no. It's just a question of when now, and I'd be shocked if they weren't granted an autobid by 2013 at the latest.

Like I said, I've got no problem with this. A 22 or 24 team playoff is no different than a 20 team one since that already includes an extra week. What this does is just add a lot more at larges to the mix and as a supporter of a team from a conference that should, most years, dominate the filling of those at large spots, I'm certainly happy. xthumbsupx

I too agree. Since future expansion is approved why not go to 24 teams. Additionally, it has always been my opinion that the reason they are in D1 is because of NCAA rules so the NCAA should provide them the chance to participate in the division that the NCAA dictates they play in.

[TexasTerror]

Another bright thing about this is taking Div I playoffs into MORE communities. Having home playoff games capture an audience and will hopefully allow these FCS programs to grow...

With the Pioneer in, that's another two teams (with the at-large addition).

The PFL will have to address the scheduling issues, because they are going to have better results and better prep for the playoffs that playing sub-Div I games for the entire OOC slate do not do...

[DetroitFlyer]

Another bright thing about this is taking Div I playoffs into MORE communities. Having home playoff games capture an audience and will hopefully allow these FCS programs to grow...

With the Pioneer in, that's another two teams (with the at-large addition).

The PFL will have to address the scheduling issues, because they are going to have better results and better prep for the playoffs that playing sub-Div I games for the entire OOC slate do not do...


Not exactly an accurate statement. I seem to recall that even your team is playing a Division II team this year.... Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have heard all of your lame excuses.... I already indicated that the PFL is working to improve schedules. Frankly, it really does not even matter, as the PFL schedules FULLY comply with EVERY NCAA rule today! I suppose the OVC and Patriot League should only play FBS teams OOC, in fact, they should only play top 10 FBS teams so that they can be ready for the playoffs.... The PFL Presidents would not have voted to apply for an autobid if they did not think that the league champion could be as competitive in the playoffs as any many other FCS conference champions. I can assure you that this decision was not made lightly. As has been pointed out, USD in 2006 and Dayton in 2007 would have done OK in the playoffs, (even with the schedules that some of you seem to not think are worthy)....

[TexasTerror]

You can follow the NCAA rules as much as you would like, but your teams will be ill-prepared for the playoffs. The reason? They do not play the level of competition that they can expect to see on a consistent basis like the rest of the subdivision.

I honestly think your league presidents and member institutions get the drift.

Hopefully, the Pioneer League schools will...

1) Not travel to sub-Div I teams (only Texas Southern, UAPB and Charleston Southern do this amongst full scholarship Div I programs - as of the last two years)
2) Limit the amount of sub-Div I games (sure, FCS plays them, just like FBS plays us)
3) Play more teams from AQ conferences

I think they'll be better equipped. Hopefully with proper access to the national championships, your program will crave more success and better results. You wouldn't want to be the conference known for losing every year and by margins of greater than 20, like some leagues are in the NCAA men's hoops tournament.

[GannonFan]

Does it matter that the PFL won't be competitive in the playoffs? Come on, the OVC and the MEAC have some pretty long string of consecutive playoff defeats and no one is advocating (seriously that is) that they lose their autobid. The Patriot League hasn't won in a while now as well (although a shorter list than the other two). There will always be some teams in the playoffs who just aren't going to win - so be it.

[Khan4Cats]

Does it matter that the PFL won't be competitive in the playoffs? Come on, the OVC and the MEAC have some pretty long string of consecutive playoff defeats and no one is advocating (seriously that is) that they lose their autobid. The Patriot League hasn't won in a while now as well (although a shorter list than the other two). There will always be some teams in the playoffs who just aren't going to win - so be it.

Exactly. It's getting to be kind of like the Big Ten in Bowl games.xrotatehx

[downbythebeach]

the more conferences represented, the more fans represented, the better for FCS....
having the chance to go to the playoffs will certainly help the PFL get some more attention on their perspective campuses

[Bull Fan]

The more the merrier. In an expanded tournament, we get to see more teams at the end of the year that we don't see in the current format. Essentially, the forced de-facto OOC game.

It will probably take years, but you'd like to think that as teams at the I-A level seem to be leveling out more and more, we can see this at the I-AA level. A school that will be able to tell recruits they can get an autobid will more than likely see these kids sign up. I think it's for the greater good of the division, but of course the residue will be all the smack talk and some teams getting roughed up pretty well in the short term come playoff time.... this will look vaguely look like (an obviously smaller) 65-team hoops tourney, and tell me who doesn't enjoy that?

[Dane96]

Wow...I agree with Bulls Fan for once.

Couldnt have said it better.

[Bull Fan]

As you introduce more teams into the playoffs, it will flat-out end the debates of who's better than who. The spirit of I-AA is the concept of winning a championship on the field and NOT in a poll. I'm all for having PFL getting their autobid earlier rather than later... let the progress of the NEC work for all. Progress shouldn't take a step backward.

[GannonFan]

The more the merrier. In an expanded tournament, we get to see more teams at the end of the year that we don't see in the current format. Essentially, the forced de-facto OOC game.

It will probably take years, but you'd like to think that as teams at the I-A level seem to be leveling out more and more, we can see this at the I-AA level. A school that will be able to tell recruits they can get an autobid will more than likely see these kids sign up. I think it's for the greater good of the division, but of course the residue will be all the smack talk and some teams getting roughed up pretty well in the short term come playoff time.... this will look vaguely look like (an obviously smaller) 65-team hoops tourney, and tell me who doesn't enjoy that?


Wow...I agree with Bulls Fan for once.

Couldnt have said it better.

No offense, but why do you think that will be the case? How many schools and conferences have had access to the playoffs through autobids, for years and even decades, and we still have the haves and the have nots when it comes to football success at the FCS level. Didn't the SWAC go 0-19 in the playoffs when they had an auto? Hasn't the OVC gone 0-for a decade, with the MEAC close behind and the the Patriot putting together an 0-for string as well?

Just getting access to an autobid is not the holy grail of becoming competitive with the top of the FCS division. It's just a step, a tiny one at that, and considering the teams that historically got better even without an autobid (GSU, UD, Hofstra, Youngstown, etc) you can argue it doesn't matter at all.

[maristdb89]

the more conferences represented, the more fans represented, the better for FCS....
having the chance to go to the playoffs will certainly help the PFL get some more attention on their perspective campuses

I agree.

[henfan]

Just getting access to an autobid is not the holy grail of becoming competitive with the top of the FCS division.

Exactly. Programs that refuse to make the necessary investments needed to compete with historically strong programs (i.e.- equivalanices, facilities, etc.) simply won't have a realistic shot at competing for an NC. Without exception, that's proven for decades across the NCAA and professional sports. There might be an outlier every now and again, but it'll be a rareity.

If a juicebox autobid and a quick exit from the playoffs is the ultimate goal, some of these programs & conferences are going to be satisfied.

[blukeys]

the more conferences represented, the more fans represented, the better for FCS....
having the chance to go to the playoffs will certainly help the PFL get some more attention on their perspective campuses

The PFL always has the CHANCE to go to the playoffs. Just as did Coastal Carolina and Cal Poly. two teams that got at large berths from conferences without autobids.

[PantherRob82]

Good for the PFL. Now, I just hope the NCAA does the right thing and grants a bid to the league. I for one cannot wait to travel to Dayton's first FCS playoff game....

I can't wait for the first PFL playoff game.xwhistlex

[Bull Fan]

I can't quantify it. I just think that when you walk into a recruit's house and speak to him about an automatic bid, you may have his attention a bit more than when you have a significantly lower chance to get there. Is this going to be the only factor in marketing yourself to the recruit? Hell no, but it's something.

Let's leap forward to (randomly) 2019. You'll have a little bit of history in judging how good a Dayton, San Diego, et al, is based on how they do in the playoffs. Rather than the usual crap we can banter on about here. It's competition and inclusion.

[PantherRob82]

Really it would be 11, because whoever was playing the Pioneer winner in the 1st round would have a cup cake matchup. xlolx

quoted for truth.

[Bull Fan]

All of this will be settled on the field in the future. That's my perspective.

[phoenix3]

It seems that if the PFL has an AQ this opens up at least one spot for a deserving team to get an at large. If this wasn't the case I'd vote no. In my observation at least 1/2 of the FCS teams are easily better than the best PFL team.

[BearsCountry]

I wish Drake would just join the MVC for football.

[Go...gate]

What is interesting is whether this would entice Georgetown to join or Marist to stay in the PFL. Georgetown would get back Davidson and former MAAC conference foe Marist as regular games on the sked and could pick and choose among the Ivies and Patriots.

[JayJ79]

I wish Drake would just join the MVC for football.

I don't think they want to pay for scholarships.
But I suppose MSU and Indiana State would like to win another conference game now and then. :p

[JayJ79]

Like others have stated, I don't have a problem with it, since it would add another at-large.
t'would just provide an easy matchup (and another home game) for a team from a scholarship conference.

[BearsCountry]

I don't think they want to pay for scholarships.


I know, just be nice if all our conference mates played football in our league. I would gladly sacrifice Youngstown and Western Illinois for Drake and Wichita State. I like the XDSU schools.

[BDKJMU]

Well, this would take the playoff field to 22. 10 teams would get 1st round byes. Heck, make that 11, as whoever was playing the cupcake Pioneer winner in round one would be essentially getting a bye...

[blur2005]

Give 'em the playoff spot. If playoff expansion is going to happen, which appears to be inevitable, then every conference should get an autobid. I don't want playoff expansion, but it's going to happen so if the possibility to include everyone in deciding the division's championship (save the stupid Ivy [edit] and SWAC) exists, let's do it.

EDIT: ODU beat Jacksonville, so the PFL definitely has some work to do.

[PantherRob82]

so if the possibility to include everyone in deciding the division's championship (save the stupid Ivy) exists, let's do it.

EDIT: ODU beat Jacksonville, so the PFL definitely has some work to do.

Ivy and SWAC

[blur2005]

Ivy and SWAC
Yeah, forgot about the SWAC.

[Rugman]

the more conferences represented, the more fans represented, the better for FCS....
having the chance to go to the playoffs will certainly help the PFL get some more attention on their perspective campuses

I fully agree, I live in Albany NY. I have seen a growth in the attendance and media coverage since the Grid Iron Bowl and the AQ coming up next year. Also I have ties to CCSU and their attendance is up and many more improvements to facilities. So although in FCS UA and CCSU are newbes the addition of the NEC into the Tourny has improved the public's involvement in those schools.

[Rugman]

Like others have stated, I don't have a problem with it, since it would add another at-large.
t'would just provide an easy matchup (and another home game) for a team from a scholarship conference.

Why would it add an at-large bid? Why wouldn't they replace an at-large with a Conference Champ? By your logic it "just provides an easy matchup" for a team from a better conference. Would that work?

[danefan]

Why would it add an at-large bid? Why wouldn't they replace an at-large with a Conference Champ? By your logic it "just provides an easy matchup" for a team from a better conference. Would that work?

There have to be at least 50% at-large bids in the playoffs so if you add an auto-bid, you have to add an at-large.

xthumbsupx

[TexasTerror]

There's an NCAA rule pertaining to the amount of automatic bids and at-larges in the field. With each AQ, another at-large needs to be added.

The CAA people are all excited since the continued expansion probably gives them a really good shot at additional teams in the field, more so than the other conferences...

[soccerguy315]

how are the playoffs going to work when we have 20? 12 byes in the first round?

how would it work with 24? 8 byes, and then the bottom 16 play each other, and those 8 winners get added to the 8 byes for round 2?

[Big Al]

I think you pretty much nailed it.

I think Pioneer getting an AQ will only help them get more competitive. Wouldn't be surprised if a little success in the playoffs wouldn't push a few of the teams to start agitating for scholarships.


how are the playoffs going to work when we have 20? 12 byes in the first round?

how would it work with 24? 8 byes, and then the bottom 16 play each other, and those 8 winners get added to the 8 byes for round 2?

[danefan]

I think you pretty much nailed it.

I think Pioneer getting an AQ will only help them get more competitive. Wouldn't be surprised if a little success in the playoffs wouldn't push a few of the teams to start agitating for scholarships.


Could got the other way too.....if they get their butts handed to them in playoffs, they might get the itch to upgrade to be more competitive. Hopefully either way it will be a positive.

I'm hoping that the NEC teams see this too next year when we get the AQ and takes the 40 limit away.

[Jackman]

There have to be at least 50% at-large bids in the playoffs so if you add an auto-bid, you have to add an at-large.

To expand upon the above, no more than 50% of NCAA playoff spots in any sport can come from Automatic Qualifiers, but you can have more than 50% be "at large" selections. So for example, we could have a 32 team playoff with 11 AQs and 21 at large teams, but the smallest tournament we could have with 11 AQs is 22 teams. And since FCS football is already at 50% AQ 50% at-large, any additional AQ requires adding another at-large spot.

[TexasTerror]

Okay, now that the MEAC is possibly leaving the playoffs behind, does the Pioneer take their automatic bid in 2011?

When I initially made this post, I said the Pioneer would likely receive their bid by 2012. With the MEAC getting rid of their bid, the NCAA would not have to expand the playoffs by simply flip-flopping the MEAC and Pioneer...

Have any Pioneer fans heard anything on this subject as of late? Particularly in the last 48-72 hours...

[Saint3333]

Let's just expand to 32 teams and be done with it...