Patriot league schollies

[Wildcat80]

an update on SN site. Seems to be more posiyive they are coming.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/indexpic.htm

[RichH2]

There is some indication on the boards that ADs and Presidents met with the consensus that merit aid was necessary for the PL. If true, issue is $$$$$$$$$$ for some schools. Implementation may fracture league .

[DFW HOYA]

Implementation may fracture league .

That may be an understatement.

If they vote yes for 63, they risk losing one or two schools (putting the autobid in risk) without assurances that there are any other schools waiting in line to join. (UR and W&M are not waiting in the wings.) If Fordham got a look from a new A-10 northern league, I'd think they'd give serious thoughts to leaving anyway.

If they vote no, Fordham walks and there are probably no schools interested in joining at this point, at least at their academic weight class. But I don't see any PL schools moving out because of the cost of upgrading other programs and the lack of leagues looking for full scholarship football members right now.

Some sort of hybrid plan needs to be on the table--what that would be is not exactly clear.

[TheValleyRaider]

There is some indication on the boards that ADs and Presidents met with the consensus that merit aid was necessary for the PL. If true, issue is $$$$$$$$$$ for some schools. Implementation may fracture league .

That, I would say, is the biggest roadblock. If the Presidents are on board with the idea that scholarships are necessary for a competitive league, a solution can be found

My guess, as it has been, will be that the PL will implement scholarships for Football in the same way they did for other sports. Allow each school to make their own decision. Will it lead to real competitive imbalance? Yeah probably, but it gives schools the option of going their own direction in the short-term while planning for a long-term relationship

[Redbird Ray]

The Patriot League shouldn't have an auto-bid until they get scholarships for football.

[RichH2]

Noted that LC would add 15 per year. My guess merit aid, as the ED of PL said, will be implemented permissively just like bball was. Some will hold back as BU and LC with bball

[crusader11]

The Patriot League shouldn't have an auto-bid until they get scholarships for football.

I guess Colgate's run to the Championship game several years ago was a mere figment of my imagination.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If they vote yes for 63, they risk losing one or two schools (putting the autobid in risk) without assurances that there are any other schools waiting in line to join. (UR and W&M are not waiting in the wings.) If Fordham got a look from a new A-10 northern league, I'd think they'd give serious thoughts to leaving anyway.

If they vote no, Fordham walks and there are probably no schools interested in joining at this point, at least at their academic weight class. But I don't see any PL schools moving out because of the cost of upgrading other programs and the lack of leagues looking for full scholarship football members right now.

Some sort of hybrid plan needs to be on the table--what that would be is not exactly clear.

Well and succinctly put.

It's worth mentioning that if the league does not implement scholarships, they're guaranteed losing Fordham, while if they go to some hybrid scholarship route they merely run a risk of losing one (or two) schools.
That's a huge difference - one course of action guarantees losing a team while the other may (or may not) lose a team.

Personally I think a hybrid solution is probably the only way forward. And while it seems like a hedge, I don't think it really is: after all, in all "scholarship" leagues there are schools that pay for 63 scholarships and others that don't. Think Indiana State in the MVFC - they're not paying for 63, while UNI certainly is and has teams that challenge for the championship pretty much every year. A "hybrid" PL might look a lot like that competitively.

That's also not mentioning the possibility of money games, etc. that can go a long way towards balancing the athletic budgets.

[danefan]

Is there even more of risk of losing G'Town if the PL goes to scholarships if the PFL gets an AQ? G'Town could probably spend less in the PFL and would have the same shot at making the playoffs. I bet they would be able to better recruit from the PFL than they can be a cellar dweller in a scholarship PL.

Does the potential AQ for the PFL have any effect on the scholarship decision of the PL?

[RichH2]

No disrespect to PFL but why would we care. You should get the AQ. The more the merrier. Merit aid for us is intense competition with IL ,CAA NEC for many of the same kids.

[danefan]

No disrespect to PFL but why would we care. You should get the AQ. The more the merrier. Merit aid for us is intense competition with IL ,CAA NEC for many of the same kids.

You should care, IMO, because if you go to scholly's a PFL with an AQ gives G'town a pretty good and easy alternative to staying in the PL. There are concerns raised in this thread that if the PL goes to scholly's G'town may go elsewhere. Seems a PFL AQ makes that more likely.

[DFW HOYA]

Is there even more of risk of losing G'Town if the PL goes to scholarships if the PFL gets an AQ? G'Town could probably spend less in the PFL and would have the same shot at making the playoffs.

I suspect there is little or no interest in the Pioneer given the travel involved and the lack of rivalries. Games with Holy Cross, Fordham, and the Ivies will mean a lot more at GU than with Jacksonville or Butler.

[danefan]

I suspect there is little or no interest in the Pioneer given the travel involved and the lack of rivalries. Games with Holy Cross, Fordham, and the Ivies will mean a lot more at GU than with Jacksonville or Butler.

Even if that means playing with less scholarships against full scholarship teams?

What's the chance that G'town would fund even half of the scholarships? An honest question. Do rivalries really matter when your fan base is so small? And I don't intend that to be a knock. The same issue applies to Albany.

[RichH2]

A valid point but as DFW has noted on his blog GU solution is alumni support school doesnot seem to be in a position to expand $ they could fund perhaps 20 which would clearly leave them in muchthe same position as now. A lot depends IMHO on coaching to make them competitive. That kind of coach like Clawson at Fordham Higgins at LU does not stay but it gives the program a shot. GU has not been lucky enuf to garner one of those.
That being said why would GU want to play Butler which would further erode what fan support they have

[The Moody1]

I guess Colgate's run to the Championship game several years ago was a mere figment of my imagination.

This just goes to show that the league doesn't need an auto bid. If they have a team that is worthy they will get their shot.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This just goes to show that the league doesn't need an auto bid. If they have a team that is worthy they will get their shot.

Couldn't that be said about any league?

[RichH2]

In a perfect world maybe best team example would be true. Much of selection processi s political as Wofford and Lehigh can verify

[DFW HOYA]

I question the assertion above that Georgetown has an abnormally small fan base. When your still-temporary facility seats 2,400, every crowd looks small in the box score.

In fact, the potential Georgetown fan base is as large as anyone in I-AA if and when its basketball fans would show some interest. Mostly as a result of basketball, Georgetown finished #57 among Division I schools in collegiate merchandising, and second only to Montana among I-AA programs. Remember, this is a school averaging over 12,000 a game in basketball despite being among the four smallest schools in its 16 team conference.

Then again, when you're 5-27 over three seasons, selling football tickets isn't the first priority.

[RichH2]

The potential is there,always has been. Even with $$ it takes years to build a program. AT LU IT took Dunlap 7-8 years to rebuild a program that had only demphasized (63-65) for a couple of yrs.

GU has to build a program and facilities.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You should care, IMO, because if you go to scholly's a PFL with an AQ gives G'town a pretty good and easy alternative to staying in the PL. There are concerns raised in this thread that if the PL goes to scholly's G'town may go elsewhere. Seems a PFL AQ makes that more likely.

This would clearly only happen if G'Town is so in line with the philosophy of non-scholarship competition that they would be willing to give up their relationships with not only the other Jesuit PL members (Fordham, Holy Cross) and regional players (Bucknell) but also, most likely, the Ivy League. Quite frankly, I don't think that philosophy is playing much of a part here.

You also have to remember that you now will have to sponsor trips to Jacksonville and San Diego every year - something that may very well cost more money, not less, than PL membership.

[LBPop]

GU has to build a program and facilities.

I have now been watching the Georgetown football program from a close vantage point for about six years. And this "chicken or egg" debate has been around seemingly forever. I am convinced that even with its substandard facilities and limited funds for financial aid, this program can be competitive. I'm not talking about 10 wins per season, but 5 or 6 would not be a ridiculous concept.

If Georgetown got to that level, a lot of things would change. The alumni and locals are so starved for mere respectability that I believe a couple of .500 seasons would bring fans, excitement and dollars. This is how it has to happen. The facilities will not improve radically and the potential fans will not go crazy until the team wins. So how does Georgetown do that?

I am a native Washingtonian and I remember when Georgetown played basketball in an antiquated little gym and nobody much cared. But then they hired a very large former NBA benchwarmer who turned that little Jesuit school on a hill in DC into a nationally recognized basketball power. It didn't happen instantly, but there was an instant feeling that something special was about to happen. If the football program will spend just a little more money and find "that guy", I think a smaller version (the I-AA/FCS version) of that story could be repeated. There are so many wonderful reasons for a kid to want to play at Georgetown and there are a bunch of very eager alumni who would be happy to support a decent football team.

Until the school finds "that guy" it will be (in my opinion) stuck in the rut that it is in. Georgetown alumni love that school. Even the football alumni love that school. Give them the right man to lead the program and I think things would change dramatically. They don't need a 20 year assistant; they need a high energy, young, bright football junky who will work 20 hours a day until it happens.

[Go...gate]

The Patriot League shouldn't have an auto-bid until they get scholarships for football.

Respectfully disagree. As Harry Truman liked to say, read your history. We have certainly held our own through the years with 63-scholarship programs.

[Go...gate]

I have now been watching the Georgetown football program from a close vantage point for about six years. And this "chicken or egg" debate has been around seemingly forever. I am convinced that even with its substandard facilities and limited funds for financial aid, this program can be competitive. I'm not talking about 10 wins per season, but 5 or 6 would not be a ridiculous concept.

If Georgetown got to that level, a lot of things would change. The alumni and locals are so starved for mere respectability that I believe a couple of .500 seasons would bring fans, excitement and dollars. This is how it has to happen. The facilities will not improve radically and the potential fans will not go crazy until the team wins. So how does Georgetown do that?

I am a native Washingtonian and I remember when Georgetown played basketball in an antiquated little gym and nobody much cared. But then they hired a very large former NBA benchwarmer who turned that little Jesuit school on a hill in DC into a nationally recognized basketball power. It didn't happen instantly, but there was an instant feeling that something special was about to happen. If the football program will spend just a little more money and find "that guy", I think a smaller version (the I-AA/FCS version) of that story could be repeated. There are so many wonderful reasons for a kid to want to play at Georgetown and there are a bunch of very eager alumni who would be happy to support a decent football team.

Until the school finds "that guy" it will be (in my opinion) stuck in the rut that it is in. Georgetown alumni love that school. Even the football alumni love that school. Give them the right man to lead the program and I think things would change dramatically. They don't need a 20 year assistant; they need a high energy, young, bright football junky who will work 20 hours a day until it happens.

They need a Fred Dunlap-type, right Engineers and Red Raiders?

[RichH2]

Yup, he took our program from hell to the National Championship. Well, it was his OL coach John Whitehead that finished the climb.

[carney2]

"Most league observers think the PL will ultimately move away from need-based aid and will begin to give scholarships in football, just as it does in other sports. Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette all seem favorable to the idea, with Bucknell and Holy Cross on the fence."

Who are these "league observers?" I have not been able to generate quite this much optimism on this issue over the months of heated - and increasingly informative - discussions. Frankly, I see:

The League doing its usual half- a$$ed routine which results in a little of this and a little of that - and satisfies absolutely no one. Every school doing its own thing as in basketball - as someone already pointed out - looks like the probable end result, but with the usual Patriot League delays and "we are above all of this" twist to it.

Fordham going its own way, partly due to Patriot League foot dragging and partly because the die is cast.

Colgate and Lehigh grabbing for the scholarship carrot as soon as it is offered.

Lafayette desperately wanting to follow suit, but finding it exceedingly difficult. They have dug themselves into an incredible Title IX hole.

Bucknell making no real decisions, but getting swept along to a place they know not where.

Holy Cross on the fence - to stay or to leave? If the former, they will be non-competitive into the foreseeable future.

Georgetown will have to reevaluate their position and will probably leave.

The net result is that the League will probably lose Fordham AND Georgetown, with the possibility of a Holy Cross defection thrown in for good measure. Why? Because they don't have the guts, foresight and leadership to make a solid decision. Line up Femovich, the Presidents and the ADs for a group photo and you have the collective south end of a north bound horse.

[crusader11]

"Most league observers think the PL will ultimately move away from need-based aid and will begin to give scholarships in football, just as it does in other sports. Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette all seem favorable to the idea, with Bucknell and Holy Cross on the fence."

Who are these "league observers?" I have not been able to generate quite this much optimism on this issue over the months of heated - and increasingly informative - discussions. Frankly, I see:

The League doing its usual half- a$$ed routine which results in a little of this and a little of that - and satisfies absolutely no one. Every school doing its own thing as in basketball - as someone already pointed out - looks like the probable end result, but with the usual Patriot League delays and "we are above all of this" twist to it.

Fordham going its own way, partly due to Patriot League foot dragging and partly because the die is cast.

Colgate and Lehigh grabbing for the scholarship carrot as soon as it is offered.

Lafayette desperately wanting to follow suit, but finding it exceedingly difficult. They have dug themselves into an incredible Title IX hole.

Bucknell making no real decisions, but getting swept along to a place they know not where.

Holy Cross on the fence - to stay or to leave? If the former, they will be non-competitive into the foreseeable future.

Georgetown will have to reevaluate their position and will probably leave.

The net result is that the League will probably lose Fordham AND Georgetown, with the possibility of a Holy Cross defection thrown in for good measure. Why? Because they don't have the guts, foresight and leadership to make a solid decision. Line up Femovich, the Presidents and the ADs for a group photo and you have the collective south end of a north bound horse.

You base your thoughts on Holy Cross on conjecture from message boards and blogs. Your assumptions and accusations are so off based with regard to Holy Cross it is comical. HC would jump on the scholarship train in a second if and when it comes.

[ColgateTD]

I have to agree with 'Sader11 and disagree with Carney. Knowing HC fb history as I do, I can't see them not jumping on the bandwagon. There's too much testosterone in the HC fb program not to be agressive on this issue.

Another solution to the problem: split into two PL divisions. The schollie teams in the Eastern Div and the non-schollie schools in the Western Div. So the first year you have Fordham in one and all the other PL teams in the other. A playoff with East vs. West would determine the AQ. Yeah, I know...FU would always be in the PL championship game....but only for a year or two until some of the other schools go the schollie route....then you've got two divisions and a real playoff format. (we do need one more team tho' to make it a more competitive playoff)..

[Redbird Ray]

Respectfully disagree. As Harry Truman liked to say, read your history. We have certainly held our own through the years with 63-scholarship programs.

I'll give you that, but I know this, if I'm an FCS power and I see a PL or MEAC team in my first round matchup, I'm licking my chops.

[Redbird Ray]

I guess Colgate's run to the Championship game several years ago was a mere figment of my imagination.

Nice run, I'd equate it to George Mason making the final four, enjoyable but not gonna happen too often.

[Go...gate]

This just goes to show that the league doesn't need an auto bid. If they have a team that is worthy they will get their shot.

Sounds like the Big Six conferences arguments relative to the NCAA basketball tournament. Forget about it.

[Go...gate]

I'll give you that, but I know this, if I'm an FCS power and I see a PL or MEAC team in my first round matchup, I'm licking my chops.

Go ahead and lick. We have won our share.

[crusader11]

I'll give you that, but I know this, if I'm an FCS power and I see a PL or MEAC team in my first round matchup, I'm licking my chops.

If I'm Northern Iowa I'm licking my chops when playing Illinois State.

[Go...gate]

If I'm Northern Iowa I'm licking my chops when playing Illinois State.

Illinois State murdered Colgate 56-13 in the first round of the 1999 play-offs and ISU had a wonderful, capable team - they were far better than we were. However, subsequent play-off match-ups between the Gateway and Patriot League have been substantially more competitive.

[LUHawker]

Illinois State murdered Colgate 56-13 in the first round of the 1999 play-offs and ISU had a wonderful, capable team - they were far better than we were. However, subsequent play-off match-ups between the Gateway and Patriot League have been substantially more competitive.

Lehigh smoked Western Illinois in '99 (I think) when Lehigh was unceremoniously shipped off to Macomb, Il after posting a great regular season. That game wasn't even close, so we've got some more evidence of the PL holding up their end of the bargain with an AQ.

[Go...gate]

ISU was very strong when Rick Greenspan was their AD - I always thought he got a raw deal at Army.

[HoyaMetanoia]

I question the assertion above that Georgetown has an abnormally small fan base. When your still-temporary facility seats 2,400, every crowd looks small in the box score.


I've read this same quote or something to this effect from you numerous times, but how many games outside of Homecoming and your occasional Ivy League game would draw more than 2,400? If I remember reading this correctly, last year's Marist game had somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 people there, and I'd bet that is stretching it.

[ngineer]

The potential is there,always has been. Even with $$ it takes years to build a program. AT LU IT took Dunlap 7-8 years to rebuild a program that had only demphasized (63-65) for a couple of yrs.

GU has to build a program and facilities.

Your point is valid, however, Fred got the ship 'righted' i.e. competitive, by 1969 (5 years) with the team going 4-5-1 and then 4-6 in 1970 after having won only 7 games from 1963-68 (six years!). Even in '67 and '68 there were a number of competitive close losses that, at least, gave rise to real hope for the future. After that, Lehigh got rolling. At the same time, Fred did have the makings of future facilities to sell recruits with the new Goodman Campus having just been acquired in the mid-1960's. I don't get the sense that G'town is working with an equivalent amount of amunition.

[ngineer]

Lehigh smoked Western Illinois in '99 (I think) when Lehigh was unceremoniously shipped off to Macomb, Il after posting a great regular season. That game wasn't even close, so we've got some more evidence of the PL holding up their end of the bargain with an AQ.

Actually, 2000. One of the most lopsided wallopings I've seen in a playoff game. WIU didn't know what hit them. The PL has been very competitive in post season and has shown they belong. Lehigh getting screwed on the goaline stand call in 2004 against JMU--the eventual National Champion--and Colgate's run to the finals the year before more than enough establishes bonafides.xcoolx

[carney2]

HC would jump on the scholarship train in a second if and when it comes.

Dream on. Anyway, I've been called a lot worse than comical on this board, so thanks for keeping it civil.

[crusader11]

Dream on. Anyway, I've been called a lot worse than comical on this board, so thanks for keeping it civil.

We'll obviously have to agree to disagree, but let it be known that I am in "the know" for what it's worth.

And keeping it civil is the Jesuit way. xnodx

[Go...gate]

We'll obviously have to agree to disagree, but let it be known that I am in "the know" for what it's worth.

And keeping it civil is the Jesuit way. xnodx

Hope you are right, Crusader. Colgate and Holy Cross go back a long way and this Colgate alum wants you in our league with scholarships - some wonderful games in our long series.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Every school doing its own thing as in basketball - as someone already pointed out - looks like the probable end result, but with the usual Patriot League delays and "we are above all of this" twist to it.

The thing is, though, let's say that "every school doing its own thing" is the result. What's so different about that league than a CAA with Rhode Island always lagging behind since they won't fully fund 63 schollies, or Indiana State deeply trailing the Southern Illinois' of the world? The fact is that every FCS conference has teams that - for whatever reason - don't spend as much money or fully fund 63 scholarships. Why would a Patriot League with one (or more) schools that don't be any different?


Bucknell making no real decisions, but getting swept along to a place they know not where.

Holy Cross on the fence - to stay or to leave? If the former, they will be non-competitive into the foreseeable future.

I disagree pretty strongly with these two assessments. Holy Cross' opposition to football scholarships was always on philosophy (in all sports but basketball), and if the rumors of a powwow with all the schools are true, they've abandoned this tack and presumably are on board with scholarships for the league - with the very big asterisk that they don't have to fund 63 of them if they don't want to. I think this is the way they are willing to go.

I also don't think Bucknell "rolls with the tide". I think they're more similar to Lafayette: if they fund a lot of scholarships in football, they might have a big Title IX issue - and that's assuming they're happy with going to football scholarships at all. Folks forget how long it took them to accept basketball scholarships - they were the second to last team to allow them. (Holy Cross was the first.)


Georgetown will have to reevaluate their position and will probably leave.

If Georgetown leaves, they'll have exactly two good options: become a part of the trans-continental PFL in which they have no real rivalries, or try to become limited-scholarship in the NEC in which they will try to pretend that Robert Morris and Monmouth are quality rivalries. But neither option is as cost-effective as simply staying put in the PL without ramping up to 63 scholarships.

I don't know about you, but I am looking very, very closely at Bernard Muir's replacement.

[crusader11]

Hope you are right, Crusader. Colgate and Holy Cross go back a long way and this Colgate alum wants you in our league with scholarships - some wonderful games in our long series.

Right back at you my friend. I've spoken to some people very high up and am virtually certain that if the league went scholarship we would follow suit. Now, we may not be one of the schools that is pushing for scholarships, but there is no way we would reject them. Sorry, Carney.

[RichH2]

From all the rumor, humor, angst, skepticism, folly, fantasy, hope et al , we can conclude that the status quo will be quo for the next season, thereafter the PL I think will be somewhat like a taffy pull with teams going in different directions and at different speeds, should be very interesting

[carney2]

Right back at you my friend. I've spoken to some people very high up and am virtually certain that if the league went scholarship we would follow suit. Now, we may not be one of the schools that is pushing for scholarships, but there is no way we would reject them. Sorry, Carney.

No offense taken, 11 - and certainly none intended. I always take homer opinions - even "in the know" homer opinions - with the proverbial grain of salt. I am still not convinced that Holy Cross will be purchasing a full fare ticket on the scholarship express when/if it leaves the station, but having LFN chime in more or less on your side in this disagreement nudges me a little closer to the line.

[carney2]

On the subject of football scholarships, the waters just got muddier.

This past Tuesday Lafayette held its annual Football Forum where head coach Frank Tavani and his staff burn a burger with interested alums. For the first time in memory I was unable to attend, and am forced to rely on the memories and opinions of others. The Lafayette board (http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/ftopic763-0-asc-0.php) has a lengthy tread on this affair and two guys who I consider informative straight shooters heard the same words from Tavani and reached totally opposite conclusions. One heard that scholarships are in our grasp and should be implemented on a 15 per year schedule in the near future. The other heard that there are "glitches" in the ongoing process within the League and that Tavani hopes to have scholarships before he retires. (He has no plans to retire soon that I know of.) I talked to another person who was in attendance and he does not share either of these opinions. What he heard put him "somewhere in the middle," which is to say, I guess, that he is not overly optimistic.

Oh yeah, Tavani does not see Fordham hanging around very long without a near term firm decision on scholarships. I guess we all knew that, but it has added force when the words come from a real source.

[RichH2]

Until the schools each sort out their funds, we will continue to agonize for our school and the PL. Some can jump in to the deep end Fordham, LU and Gate in the middle of the pool LC in the wading area with BU and GU sitting on the edge sticking a toe in.

[bison137]

I also don't think Bucknell "rolls with the tide". I think they're more similar to Lafayette: if they fund a lot of scholarships in football, they might have a big Title IX issue - and that's assuming they're happy with going to football scholarships at all. Folks forget how long it took them to accept basketball scholarships - they were the second to last team to allow them. (Holy Cross was the first.)





1. Bucknell likely has some Title IX issues but I don't think they're as big as those of Lafayette.


2. A small correction. Bucknell was actually third-to-last to approve basketball scholarships. Of the five schools that had to make a choice, the order was HC, LU, BU, CU, and LC. American entered the league with scholarships and, of course, Army and Navy are all "scholarship"

[ngineer]

Based on Carney's review of what he heard 'on the Hill', sounds to me that there will be a 'hybrid' implementation when the presidents get together again. The 'start' date may be in a couple years and phased in, in graduated amounts up t a 'max' with each school given the option as to how much they want to 'go in'.

[Go...gate]

Based on Carney's review of what he heard 'on the Hill', sounds to me that there will be a 'hybrid' implementation when the presidents get together again. The 'start' date may be in a couple years and phased in, in graduated amounts up t a 'max' with each school given the option as to how much they want to 'go in'.

Oh, brother. Not so sure that is good for the league. 3-4 schools with 60, a couple with 30-40 and 1-2 possibly without any and staying with equivalencies? Competition will be difficult.

[TheValleyRaider]

Oh, brother. Not so sure that is good for the league. 3-4 schools with 60, a couple with 30-40 and 1-2 possibly without any and staying with equivalencies? Competition will be difficult.

Top to bottom competitiveness will suffer, but if it improves the upper levels of the League, then I think its the right move. Unless there's a backup plan for replacing Fordham after not allowing scholarships, or replacing whoever leaves with the implementation of scholarships, you need to allow as much leeway as possible. The best way to do that is to give everyone the option

[ngineer]

Oh, brother. Not so sure that is good for the league. 3-4 schools with 60, a couple with 30-40 and 1-2 possibly without any and staying with equivalencies? Competition will be difficult.

I agree, and it may result in some leaving and some new joining (Hofstra, Villanova ?). This is certainly a couple years out so anything can happen.

[DFW HOYA]

I agree, and it may result in some leaving and some new joining (Hofstra, Villanova ?).

Berfore we divert to this leaving talk xbangx , it might be worth restating that schools like Hofstra and Villanova are not on a waiting list to join the PL, for the simple reason that the PL's academic restrictions are not going to entice schools to pick up and join.

Why would Villanova want to spend almost as much as they do currently, accept fewer opportunities for at-large playoff bids, and commit to recruiting only players with a Ivy-like SAT score all for the privilege of playing in the PL?

If PL scholarships remain tied to a league-wide index, I can't see why any CAA team would trade in their current affiliation to participate.

[carney2]

Why would Villanova want to spend almost as much as they do currently, accept fewer opportunities for at-large playoff bids, and commit to recruiting only players with a Ivy-like SAT score all for the privilege of playing in the PL?

I have, with my own ears, heard a VERY well placed source state in a public forum that Villanova would be a very likely new member should scholarships be approved. (Actually, the source seemed much more certain than my words convey.) I have no additional information and recognize that this flies in the face of conventional wisdom and goes against the generally accepted "truth" that the Patriot League would not be interested in football only associate members. I throw it out there for what it's worth and with the caveat that I trust the source.

[Ken_Z]

and with the caveat that I trust the source.

interesting phrase. are we to interpret that your usual lack of judgement is in play here and we should assume the source is not trustworthy?

[DFW HOYA]

I have, with my own ears, heard a VERY well placed source state in a public forum that Villanova would be a very likely new member should scholarships be approved. (Actually, the source seemed much more certain than my words convey.)

Sounds interesting, but I sense this would provoke a Richmond-style response among its alumni.

[TheValleyRaider]

Sounds interesting, but I sense this would provoke a Richmond-style response among its alumni.

Would it, though?

Nova's bread is buttered by Basketball, much more so than Richmond's, relatively speaking. How much do they really care where the team is playing as long as BBall is still a strong competitor in the Big East? xconfusedx

[BDKJMU]

Respectfully disagree. As Harry Truman liked to say, read your history. We have certainly held our own through the years with 63-scholarship programs.

I disagree with Redbird about taking away the autobid. The Patriot sure deserves it as much if not more than the MEAC. But 0-6 in the playoffs since 04'. It seems like the Patriot has been trending down since then. I mean, look at the 1st round matchup last season between Nova and Colgate.

I think it would be great if the Patriot goes to schollies beginning with a phase in period. If schools wanted to they could throw in a I-A game a year to help pay for it. Even though its a likely loss, it would give the Patriot kids an opportunity to play in front of 30-100k fans. Course I don't think a team with less than 45-50 schollies should be thrown to the wolves like that.

[ngineer]

Would it, though?

Nova's bread is buttered by Basketball, much more so than Richmond's, relatively speaking. How much do they really care where the team is playing as long as BBall is still a strong competitor in the Big East? xconfusedx

Agreed. Villanova alums (with few exceptions) don't give a hoot about football. So long as they could still have their OOC games with Delaware and Penn, I think they would be interested in a scholarship PL

[colorless raider]

Agreed. Villanova alums (with few exceptions) don't give a hoot about football. So long as they could still have their OOC games with Delaware and Penn, I think they would be interested in a scholarship PL

At the Colgate-Nova playoff game, Colgate fans matched 'Nova fans in number which does indica te it is a BBall school.

[carney2]

Sounds interesting, but I sense this would provoke a Richmond-style response among its alumni.

Alas, a very real part of the equation.

[carney2]

interesting phrase. are we to interpret that your usual lack of judgement is in play here and we should assume the source is not trustworthy?

The proper reading here for most would be that, after watching you and I go at it over the years, my judgment is impeccable.

[carney2]

Is the Patriot League in danger of becoming a 2 team league (or 3, if Fordham stays)? Assuming that the League approves football scholarships in the 60 range with squad size limitations and some version of an AI, what do you think the chances are of each school grabbing the ball and running with it? I'll start:

BUCKNELL >50% Does anyone have a clue here? Very difficult to figure out.

COLGATE 90% There appears to be momentum, but the new President is a wild card.

FORDHAM 100% Done, and done.

GEORGETOWN 10% There is no evidence of football fever inside the Beltway. None!

HOLY CROSS >50% Despite 11's comments and LFN's endorsement thereof, I am not seeing much evidence of anything happening in Woo after Dom the Bomb grabs his diploma. The Gordie Lochbaum memories are fading, fading, and my 50% is overly optimistic in deference to LFN.

LAFAYETTE >50% Climbing a Title IX mountain with the faculty and Trustees harrassing all the way will be way beyond difficult. President Weiss increasingly appears NOT up to the task.

LEHIGH 75% Don't underestimate the Alice factor.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is the Patriot League in danger of becoming a 2 team league (or 3, if Fordham stays)? Assuming that the League approves football scholarships in the 60 range with squad size limitations and some version of an AI, what do you think the chances are of each school grabbing the ball and running with it?

My short answers:

Fordham: Yes, and I think they definitely stay if the league implements schollies.

Colgate and Lehigh: Will ramp up immediately.

Lafayette: Will have to clean up the Title IX mess, but will ramp up as soon as possible. There's no way they'll lag behind Lehigh if they go scholly. But it might take a while.

Holy Cross: Will for for the near-term not need-limit their aid. But I also don't think they'll go to the full 63 right away, either.

Bucknell: Very unclear. My guess is they may want to keep aid and equivalencies the way they are right now.

Georgetown: Completely depends on the new AD.

If B-Ball is any guide, every school eventually will implement some form of "scholarships", with varying levels of implementation.

[GannonFan]

Agreed. Villanova alums (with few exceptions) don't give a hoot about football. So long as they could still have their OOC games with Delaware and Penn, I think they would be interested in a scholarship PL

And if nova left UD's conference to go elsewhere, the only way the OOC games would continue would be if nova agreed on all of them being in Newark. Given the fact that they gave Penn so many home games (even playing nova home games at Franklin Field) they may actually agree to that. Heck, they might even make more money playing all road games in Newark rather than getting half the games at home. xlolx

[Ken_Z]

Is the Patriot League in danger of becoming a 2 team league (or 3, if Fordham stays)? Assuming that the League approves football scholarships in the 60 range with squad size limitations and some version of an AI, what do you think the chances are of each school grabbing the ball and running with it? I'll start:

BUCKNELL >50% Does anyone have a clue here? Very difficult to figure out.


depends on how you define running with it. first critical decision point will likely be in November when the board gets information and hopefully a recommendation to expand merit aid beyond hoops. this decision, will also apply to football if the PL adopts. i think it is likely that expanded merit aid gets a green light.

now running versus crawling is a bigger issue. will they go for 60 within the first four years, not so convinced of this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_Z
interesting phrase. are we to interpret that your usual lack of judgement is in play here and we should assume the source is not trustworthy?

The proper reading here for most would be that, after watching you and I go at it over the years, my judgment is impeccable.

LOL, pleased to see your pre season practice has kicked off as well :)

[crusader11]

HOLY CROSS >50% Despite 11's comments and LFN's endorsement thereof, I am not seeing much evidence of anything happening in Woo after Dom the Bomb grabs his diploma. The Gordie Lochbaum memories are fading, fading, and my 50% is overly optimistic in deference to LFN.


Where would you see evidence? From the blogs and message boards you read? Do you honestly think you have a clue as to where Holy Cross stands on the scholarship issue? Sorry if I am coming off a bit harsh and abrasive, but you are off base here.

[DFW HOYA]

Where would you see evidence? From the blogs and message boards you read? Do you honestly think you have a clue as to where Holy Cross stands on the scholarship issue? Sorry if I am coming off a bit harsh and abrasive, but you are off base here.

Let's put it in perspective. There are fans from six PL schools who see scholarships as something likely to happen. But they aren't voting, presidents are, and the shadow of Rev. Brooks and the "last amateurs" are still there. A quick check of the Google archives pulls this quote from former Lehigh president Peter Likins: ''I suppose we are perceived by some as the answer to so-called big-time college football."

I suspect there are more than a few presidents which still feel that way, even if they don't say so, and the lure of a first round win in the playoffs or the ability to schedule Buffalo or UConn may not hold the same sway if it means saying good-bye to a visit at the presidential box at Princeton or Yale.

As far as I can tell, only one of the seven Patriot League presidents played intercollegiate football, so you've got six others with a very different idea of what the sport means at their schools. Maybe they've bought in (figuratively and literally). Maybe they'll talk it over. But it's not a done deal.

[Ken_Z]

DFW, i tend to agree with your observations re the perspective of many of the Presidents and Boards of the PL schools. scholarships would not be approved solely in order to win a first round playoff game. the reason i believe they will be approved is because the survival of the PL may well depend on it. maintaining the PL and its philosophy of requiring representative student athletes .e.g. adherence to an AI, is important enough to the five core schools for them to compromise on their philosophy re merit aid. if the PL goes down, there are no viable D1 alternatives available that allow them to maintain that.

[carney2]

DFW, i tend to agree with your observations re the perspective of many of the Presidents and Boards of the PL schools. scholarships would not be approved solely in order to win a first round playoff game. the reason i believe they will be approved is because the survival of the PL may well depend on it. maintaining the PL and its philosophy of requiring representative student athletes .e.g. adherence to an AI, is important enough to the five core schools for them to compromise on their philosophy re merit aid. if the PL goes down, there are no viable D1 alternatives available that allow them to maintain that.

Coherent and cogent. Given the source, that is confounding.

(The coin toss is behind us. Let the games begin.)

[LUHawker]

LEHIGH 75% Don't underestimate the Alice factor.



Carney,

I'm not following this comment. Lehigh put out an official release essentially supporting scholarships the same day as the Fordham-PL news came out. That strongly suggests to me that Lehigh is 100% on board. I don't think LU would have made that release without sign-off from Alice.

[Go...gate]

Berfore we divert to this leaving talk xbangx , it might be worth restating that schools like Hofstra and Villanova are not on a waiting list to join the PL, for the simple reason that the PL's academic restrictions are not going to entice schools to pick up and join.

Why would Villanova want to spend almost as much as they do currently, accept fewer opportunities for at-large playoff bids, and commit to recruiting only players with a Ivy-like SAT score all for the privilege of playing in the PL?

If PL scholarships remain tied to a league-wide index, I can't see why any CAA team would trade in their current affiliation to participate.

You are right about Villanova, but Hofstra once wanted in pretty badly and we did not let them in. There were hard feelings for years thereafter, but the I believe the PL would be thrilled to have Hofstra and that Hofstra might very consider us.

[ngineer]

Keep in mind, going scholarship does not mean going 63. Indeed, even with the the 'big boys' in the PL only in the low to mid 50's at present going to 63 would be unthinkable. I believe that if we go scholarship, we'd actually pull back some inorder to allocate more funds to women's sports in order to address Title IX adherence.

[Go...gate]

Keep in mind, going scholarship does not mean going 63. Indeed, even with the the 'big boys' in the PL only in the low to mid 50's at present going to 63 would be unthinkable. I believe that if we go scholarship, we'd actually pull back some inorder to allocate more funds to women's sports in order to address Title IX adherence.

You talking 40-45 scholarships? We would still not be "counters" if we wanted the occasional FBS matchup. I believe that would be important to Colgate.

[RichH2]

Likins' quote as actually not against scholarships as he was not opposed to them. He as referring to how "some" viewed the Pl not how he viewed the league .

Just saw the 75% guess, you can up that to 100%. AD and Coen would not have taken an official position in support of merit aid w/o Pres approval

[carney2]

You talking 40-45 scholarships? We would still not be "counters" if we wanted the occasional FBS matchup. I believe that would be important to Colgate.

57 is the absolute minimum, although I am unclear as to whether a school could walk both sides of the street and package grants and equivalencies into one pile when dealing with the "counter" question. In any event,, why not 60*, which is a nice, neat 15 per year, but it's not the whole hog 63, and the purer than pure Patriot League can still say "we're not like the rest of them."

*I'm talking about what the League allows, not necessarily what any individual school actually does. I'm willing to bet that, if this happens, the final outcome will be something like "up to 60" or "up to 15 per year."

[LBPop]

Georgetown: Completely depends on the new AD.


That would seem logical, but after having spent some time with Bernard Muir and seen his obvious frustration, I think decisions like this go higher. After reading the various opinions in this thread, my guess would be that Georgetown would simply hang around the PL even if it goes scholarship. Sure, it would probably put the Hoyas at a greater disadvantage, but you can't win fewer than zero games. So for the Georgetown decision makers it would be the same results under different rules.

[Go...gate]

That would seem logical, but after having spent some time with Bernard Muir and seen his obvious frustration, I think decisions like this go higher. After reading the various opinions in this thread, my guess would be that Georgetown would simply hang around the PL even if it goes scholarship. Sure, it would probably put the Hoyas at a greater disadvantage, but you can't win fewer than zero games. So for the Georgetown decision makers it would be the same results under different rules.

xeekx

[crusader11]

That would seem logical, but after having spent some time with Bernard Muir and seen his obvious frustration, I think decisions like this go higher. After reading the various opinions in this thread, my guess would be that Georgetown would simply hang around the PL even if it goes scholarship. Sure, it would probably put the Hoyas at a greater disadvantage, but you can't win fewer than zero games. So for the Georgetown decision makers it would be the same results under different rules.

Some of those games could get very, very ugly.

[Dane96]

Exactly- See Siena and St. John's.

[DFW HOYA]

That would seem logical, but after having spent some time with Bernard Muir and seen his obvious frustration, I think decisions like this go higher. After reading the various opinions in this thread, my guess would be that Georgetown would simply hang around the PL even if it goes scholarship. Sure, it would probably put the Hoyas at a greater disadvantage, but you can't win fewer than zero games. So for the Georgetown decision makers it would be the same results under different rules.



Some of those games could get very, very ugly.

Maybe, maybe not.

Over the last three seasons (1-16 in PL play), the average margin of defeat against PL opponents has been a blistering 20.1 points per game, and excepting games with Bucknell, the average bumps up to 23.7. In seven games against scholarship teams this decade (2-5), the the average margin of defeat was only 9.1 points.

LBPop raises the scenario that as the ground shakes around other schools, the Hoyas could just as well stand pat. Would the others even care? Would it matter to the rest of the PL as a whole if Georgetown spent the same (or less) than it does now?

[crusader11]

Hence the word, "some".

[carney2]

LBPop raises the scenario that as the ground shakes around other schools, the Hoyas could just as well stand pat. Would the others even care? Would it matter to the rest of the PL as a whole if Georgetown spent the same (or less) than it does now?

Yeah, actually the others would. Yeah, actually the League would. As has been discussed and agreed on many times here, the Patriot League needs Georgetown more than vice versa. (For one thing, Georgetown is the only school in the football portion of the Patriot League equation with a truly national footprint. I could go on, but...) Anything that makes Georgetown (even) less competitive and therefore theoretically moves them closer to the door or even (shudder) closer to a decision to drop football (no prediction here; merely pointing out the ultimate undesirable outcome), is bad for the League.

[bison137]

57 is the absolute minimum, although I am unclear as to whether a school could walk both sides of the street and package grants and equivalencies into one pile when dealing with the "counter" question.


I'm fairly sure that a school can package athletic scholarships and need-based grants, as long as they don't exceed 63 in total. PL schools probably would do fine if they distributed 40 true athletic scholarships and another 20 need-based grants. A mixed plan would also mitigate some of the Title IX hit.

[LBPop]

Yeah, actually the others would. Yeah, actually the League would. As has been discussed and agreed on many times here, the Patriot League needs Georgetown more than vice versa. (For one thing, Georgetown is the only school in the football portion of the Patriot League equation with a truly national footprint. I could go on, but...) Anything that makes Georgetown (even) less competitive and therefore theoretically moves them closer to the door or even (shudder) closer to a decision to drop football (no prediction here; merely pointing out the ultimate undesirable outcome), is bad for the League.

I have seen/heard various versions of this very rational argument for about six years (Carney, I apologize for suggesting that you are in any way rational ;)). But sometimes I wonder what the long-time coaches in the PL really think. Georgetown gets them a little national credibility; a large metropolitan area with alumni from all the PL schools; an automatic bid; and a sure win/bye week each year. So if we woke up Tavani in the middle of the night (ugh, what a visual) would he admit that he prefers having the "sleeping giant" stay asleep? It sure helps his overall record. xrolleyesx

And what about Georgetown? I have seen it written that maybe the status quo is exactly what the administration wants too. Here's the plan: 1) field a team with mostly good kids who we can be proud of; 2) don't spend more money than you have to; 3) keep the GPI up; 4) no scandals. But keep the football program alive so you can still solicit donations from former players and the core of football fans (yes, there is one). And you can keep saying that Georgetown plays Division I football.

Yeah, yeah, I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory and I'm not one to look for that. But I am a businessman and like a lot of business deals that don't make sense on the surface, when you drill down you discover that there is something in it for everyone. I'm not sayin', but I'm just sayin'

[ngineer]

I have seen/heard various versions of this very rational argument for about six years (Carney, I apologize for suggesting that you are in any way rational ;)). But sometimes I wonder what the long-time coaches in the PL really think. Georgetown gets them a little national credibility; a large metropolitan area with alumni from all the PL schools; an automatic bid; and a sure win/bye week each year. So if we woke up Tavani in the middle of the night (ugh, what a visual) would he admit that he prefers having the "sleeping giant" stay asleep? It sure helps his overall record. xrolleyesx

And what about Georgetown? I have seen it written that maybe the status quo is exactly what the administration wants too. Here's the plan: 1) field a team with mostly good kids who we can be proud of; 2) don't spend more money than you have to; 3) keep the GPI up; 4) no scandals. But keep the football program alive so you can still solicit donations from former players and the core of football fans (yes, there is one). And you can keep saying that Georgetown plays Division I football.
Yeah, yeah, I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory and I'm not one to look for that. But I am a businessman and like a lot of business deals that don't make sense on the surface, when you drill down you discover that there is something in it for everyone. I'm not sayin', but I'm just sayin'

I can't believe that would result in all that much money in terms of an overall University fund raising strategy, since fielding and running the program certainly costs more than contributiions received. xconfusedx

[carney2]

I have seen/heard various versions of this very rational argument for about six years (Carney, I apologize for suggesting that you are in any way rational ;)). But sometimes I wonder what the long-time coaches in the PL really think. Georgetown gets them a little national credibility; a large metropolitan area with alumni from all the PL schools; an automatic bid; and a sure win/bye week each year. So if we woke up Tavani in the middle of the night (ugh, what a visual) would he admit that he prefers having the "sleeping giant" stay asleep? It sure helps his overall record. xrolleyesx

And what about Georgetown? I have seen it written that maybe the status quo is exactly what the administration wants too. Here's the plan: 1) field a team with mostly good kids who we can be proud of; 2) don't spend more money than you have to; 3) keep the GPI up; 4) no scandals. But keep the football program alive so you can still solicit donations from former players and the core of football fans (yes, there is one). And you can keep saying that Georgetown plays Division I football.

Yeah, yeah, I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory and I'm not one to look for that. But I am a businessman and like a lot of business deals that don't make sense on the surface, when you drill down you discover that there is something in it for everyone. I'm not sayin', but I'm just sayin'

First things first: I am really disturbed by the comment that is hi-lited above in bold type. There is a little more KenZ in those words than I can tolerate or even contemplate. To think that he may have fellow travelers is scary not just for me, but for reasoning bipeds everywhere. Grab hold of yourself! Look in the mirror! Seek professional help before this goes too far.

Now to the meat of your argument. All that you say is true. The coaches and rabid fans undoubtedly do enjoy having a League gimme game every year. They would not like to see the Hoyas "be all that they could be." And, perhaps the Georgetown powers that be really are content to just show up as long as there is no stink associated with the program. There is much more to it than that, however.

In the first place, there is more to the Patriot League than a bunch of coaches grubbing for wins. There are serious and influential people who see it as a home for a small group of schools with a bond of history, tradition, common values and academic excellence. In other words, a bond that goes well beyond the "win one for the alumni" motivation that we see in leagues such as the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky, MVC, and the list goes on, that are dominated by large state schools. There are schools that truly share this bond, and I think that all 7 of the current football members do. There are schools that don't, and can you think of a better example than former PL member Towson? The entire fabric of the League is threatened whenever one of these core members is continually hovering near the exit sign due to lack of competitiveness.

As for the Georgetown attitude toward the status quo, you are probably right. Today is not forever, however. Sooner or later someone will be in the Hoya hierarchy (howzabout that term?!!) who rationally determines that having a laughing stock football program is not doing anything for the school's overall image. (At Williams College, as a counterpoint, the attitude is "We do not do the best we can. We do the best that can be done.") In other words, someone may determine that quality is an attitude, and if you accept mediocrity in anything, you accept mediocrity in everything. The problem then is what to do about it. Ramp up? That costs money. Out the door? Again, that seat near the exit sign is always occupied by a Hoya. Not good.

[Doc QB]

At Williams College, as a counterpoint, the attitude is "We do not do the best we can. We do the best that can be done."

An excellent quote provided by Carney...but shows that maybe the leaque as a whole is not doing the best that can be done. It is remarkably hypocritical that a leaugue formed with a certain set of academic and athletic values in its football student-athletes, as well as need based aid now each year provide more unrestricted scholarship money for other sports. It boggles my mind trying to understand why the presidents will allow all the unrestricted cash for other sports but hold on to the merit-aid ideal that formed the league with football in the first place. Are they afraid they will look weak, or not academic minded for changing philosophies? They aleady have.

Forham may have made it look a little easy, because the are not spending extra money (it is already there, will be distributed differently) and have no Title garbage to deal with, but I really find it difficult to believe the others would really have that much difficulty with the transition. It is just plain hypocritical to fund sports differently, especially so for the sport the conference was born upon, the sport we all love on this site (most important, right?), already spends the scholarship money anyway, and would dramatically improve quality of play, ensure longevity of the conference, ignite alumni pride (i.e. giving) with a prize at the end of the season with improved playoff competitiveness...I know I need not go on on this board.

We are not doing the best that can be done. The money is already there. Change the semantics on the way it is given out, recruit the best athletes at this level who are tremendous students...THAT IS A UNIQUE CONFEFENCE IDEAL, one that no others can duplicate. The current model is only adequate, is only the best we can, and it shows.

[bison137]

We are not doing the best that can be done. The money is already there.


For many of the schools, the money is not there. It will require a significant additional outlay due to Title IX.

[Go...gate]

First things first: I am really disturbed by the comment that is hi-lited above in bold type. There is a little more KenZ in those words than I can tolerate or even contemplate. To think that he may have fellow travelers is scary not just for me, but for reasoning bipeds everywhere. Grab hold of yourself! Look in the mirror! Seek professional help before this goes too far.

Now to the meat of your argument. All that you say is true. The coaches and rabid fans undoubtedly do enjoy having a League gimme game every year. They would not like to see the Hoyas "be all that they could be." And, perhaps the Georgetown powers that be really are content to just show up as long as there is no stink associated with the program. There is much more to it than that, however.

In the first place, there is more to the Patriot League than a bunch of coaches grubbing for wins. There are serious and influential people who see it as a home for a small group of schools with a bond of history, tradition, common values and academic excellence. In other words, a bond that goes well beyond the "win one for the alumni" motivation that we see in leagues such as the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky, MVC, and the list goes on, that are dominated by large state schools. There are schools that truly share this bond, and I think that all 7 of the current football members do. There are schools that don't, and can you think of a better example than former PL member Towson? The entire fabric of the League is threatened whenever one of these core members is continually hovering near the exit sign due to lack of competitiveness.

As for the Georgetown attitude toward the status quo, you are probably right. Today is not forever, however. Sooner or later someone will be in the Hoya hierarchy (howzabout that term?!!) who rationally determines that having a laughing stock football program is not doing anything for the school's overall image. (At Williams College, as a counterpoint, the attitude is "We do not do the best we can. We do the best that can be done.") In other words, someone may determine that quality is an attitude, and if you accept mediocrity in anything, you accept mediocrity in everything. The problem then is what to do about it. Ramp up? That costs money. Out the door? Again, that seat near the exit sign is always occupied by a Hoya. Not good.

Yes, and notwithstanding that the Ephmen defeated HC in basketball once, the D-III/NESCAC bar is not very high in most sports.

[carney2]

Yes, and notwithstanding that the Ephmen defeated HC in basketball once, the D-III/NESCAC bar is not very high in most sports.

You are saying that they would not do well against Florida or Southern Cal in football, North Carolina or Kansas in hoops, etc.. I am saying that they have traditionally done very well at the level they choose to compete.

We digress. This was but an example of attitude and how it could eventually be implemented at other institutions with an overall reputation for excellence. Let's get focused and on point.

[Go...gate]

Fair enough. :)

[RichH2]

So after all the talk, guessing, hoping , fantasy, we approach the season with both more optimism and more pessimism about our future than has existed in many years. Should be interesting. xcoffeexxchinscratchx
More importantly, now it is time for this years football. For the next 5 months we can table schollies and worry about how to stop Randolph, will Trigg last the season, can Jaren have a breakout yr, does GU have a qb, Can we count on Fordham underperforming again, will Gate find an OL Will Lafayette rebuild an O by PL schedule

[colorless raider]

Let's make the PL presidents aware that ONCE we get scholarships we each can schedule a 1A game that could bring in $250-500,000 a year. How about that approach in these tough financial times. Each one of us should lobby our respective trustees and presidents to this fact!xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Can't believe the season is nearly upon us.

[RichH2]

Yup, let us be thankful to FU for getting us thru the summerxsmiley_wix

[crusader11]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but your all playing for second place, haha, all in jester. Here's to a fabulous season.

[Lehigh74]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but your all playing for second place, haha, all in jester. Here's to a fabulous season.

For the Crusaders it all comes down to in Dominick we trust. Although football is a team sport, Randolph is the most important player in the league.

[RichH2]

True other than QB , Cross has a bit better D than last year just with so many starters returning but it is still about average. rbs are nothing special, OL superb ,wrs a project but with Dom they could be OK. If he is subpar or injured they are a .500 team at best but I would not count on him missing miuch time or being subpar.

[Go...gate]

Sorry to break it to you guys, but your all playing for second place, haha, all in jester. Here's to a fabulous season.

You guys are have a hell of a shot; IMO, Randolph can get it done but you guys need a strong run defense as well. You get that and a championship is likely.

[colorless raider]

Back to politics...don't forget to lobby using the big FBS paycheck as chum.:D

[carney2]

Back to politics...don't forget to lobby using the big FBS paycheck as chum.:D

I doubt if we'd be telling anyone something he/she doesn't know.

[crusader11]

I tell you something new with my every post Carney.

Just busting your balls. In fact, you're one of the more knowledgeable posters/people of PL football.

[ngineer]

True other than QB , Cross has a bit better D than last year just with so many starters returning but it is still about average. rbs are nothing special, OL superb ,wrs a project but with Dom they could be OK. If he is subpar or injured they are a .500 team at best but I would not count on him missing miuch time or being subpar.

Key point...Dominick can have the greatest arm in the country, but if the WRs don't run good routes and/or drop the ball, it means nothing.

[carney2]

Key point...Dominick can have the greatest arm in the country, but if the WRs don't run good routes and/or drop the ball, it means nothing.

This could be a 5 - and maybe even 6 (not sold on Bucknell at this point) - fight to the finish. Regardless of the reason (everyone has serious deficiencies), this could be one of the best seasons in PL history. It's great having HC in the mix, but I do have concerns about post-Dom football in Wootown. They are, in my opinion, one of two PL programs trending down. Without Randolph, they fall off the chart. But how far?

[LUHawker]

They are, in my opinion, one of two PL programs trending down. Without Randolph, they fall off the chart. But how far?

Which is the other program? BU? GTown is already down. Fordham is going up, Colgate is holding steady and I think Lehigh and Lafayette are no worse than steady.

[carney2]

Which is the other program? BU? GTown is already down. Fordham is going up, Colgate is holding steady and I think Lehigh and Lafayette are no worse than steady.

One man's opinion and with fear that I may have to attend home games this year in a disguise:

Bucknell: UP - The question here is "How far is up?" The "Landis factor" is still the wild card in Buffalo.

Colgate: STEADY

Fordham: UP - Football scholarships!

Georgetown: STEADY

Holy Cross: DOWN - Is there life after Dom? The recruiting has been questionable, so maybe not.

Lafayette: DOWN - Although there are at least half a dozen real gems, the last two recruiting classes have been (I'm being kind) marginal. OL, a traditional Tavani strength, has been reduced to questionable and is one year away from being a weakness. Administrative support has evaporated, and the power structure may in fact be a hindrance in the foreseeable future.

Lehigh: UP - The faithful are demanding a steeper slope, but the trend is undeniable.

Again, one man's opinion. Have at it.

[crusader11]

Holy Cross: DOWN - Is there life after Dom? The recruiting has been questionable, so maybe not.



Recruiting has been questionable? Good one. Well, according to your "Patsy Ratings" maybe they are, but Holy Cross football did not go from 1-10 and one of the worst teams in the country not too long ago, to a top 25 team and front runner to win the Patriot League. You think Dom Randolph did this all by himself? As long as Gilmore is at the helm of Holy Cross football, things will only continue to go up.

[carney2]

Recruiting has been questionable? Good one. Well, according to your "Patsy Ratings" maybe they are, but Holy Cross football did not go from 1-10 and one of the worst teams in the country not too long ago, to a top 25 team and front runner to win the Patriot League. You think Dom Randolph did this all by himself? As long as Gilmore is at the helm of Holy Cross football, things will only continue to go up.

We agree to disagree.

[colorless raider]

Recruiting has been questionable? Good one. Well, according to your "Patsy Ratings" maybe they are, but Holy Cross football did not go from 1-10 and one of the worst teams in the country not too long ago, to a top 25 team and front runner to win the Patriot League. You think Dom Randolph did this all by himself? As long as Gilmore is at the helm of Holy Cross football, things will only continue to go up.

And how long do you expect TG to be there? Gone by January 15 is my prediction if HC wins the PL.

[crusader11]

How long has Dick Biddle been at Colgate? I'm sure that he has had a fair amount of offers to go bigger but has declined. Gilmore is an Ivy/Patriot League guy; he has not left these coaching/recruiting/playing circles since he stepped foot on the Penn campus back in the early 1980s...almost 30 years of experience in the Ivy/Patriot League. This, in my opinion, is what has made him such a successful coach; he knows these kind of kids he has to recruit. I don't think he's leaving any time soon.

[RichH2]

11,

I love Gilmore. HC got a great coach. I loved Kevin also a great coach. Unfortunately, too good to stay forever. When Kevin was offered the NFL job, it was not w/o msgivings that he took it. He also had been a PL guy but we cannot expect a competitve guy to just stop his career challenges because of that. I was happy that Kevin stayed as long as he did but never expected him to stay forever. Biddle is a special case and Colgate is extremely lucky to have a great coach like that who will stay until retirement I guess. A depressing thought for a Lehigh guy. I would not be surprised if HC lives up to expectations for Tom to move up the ladder.

[Franks Tanks]

11,

I love Gilmore. HC got a great coach. I loved Kevin also a great coach. Unfortunately, too good to stay forever. When Kevin was offered the NFL job, it was not w/o msgivings that he took it. He also had been a PL guy but we cannot expect a competitve guy to just stop his career challenges because of that. I was happy that Kevin stayed as long as he did but never expected him to stay forever. Biddle is a special case and Colgate is extremely lucky to have a great coach like that who will stay until retirement I guess. A depressing thought for a Lehigh guy. I would not be surprised if HC lives up to expectations for Tom to move up the ladder.

Kevin did screw up a bit. He could have been in line for an FBS job back in the day but of cousre jumped to the Lions. Remember when Higgins was considered a top canidate for the Rutgers job that ended of going to Schiano?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Kevin did screw up a bit. He could have been in line for an FBS job back in the day but of cousre jumped to the Lions. Remember when Higgins was considered a top canidate for the Rutgers job that ended of going to Schiano?

Higgins still might end up there when our Bucknellian friend Schiano ends up taking over for JoePa ten years from now.

Real hard to fault Higgins, IMO, for trying to break into the NFL. He had no idea what Matt Millen would do to them then.

[Franks Tanks]

Higgins still might end up there when our Bucknellian friend Schiano ends up taking over for JoePa ten years from now.

Real hard to fault Higgins, IMO, for trying to break into the NFL. He had no idea what Matt Millen would do to them then.

Hindsight is 20/20 of cousre. Certainly if Joey Harrington and the Lions were a success Kevin would have been very hot.

[crusader11]

Money does talk, and if Gilmore was given a very tempting offer at an FBS school that can double his salary, I guess he would take it. But, I don't see him moving to another FCS school or to an FBS school just for the sake of "moving up." It would have to be a VERY compelling offer.

And Rich, who's to say that Gilmore isn't one of those special cases like Biddle? I can very easily envision Gilmore coaching for 10-15 more years and then "retiring" as the athletic director at Holy Cross.

[RichH2]

I'm not saying no, I would think the PL will be better with him here. He is a great coach and a straight shooter. There is rarely any doubt what he thinks. It would be nice to have but I am not optimistic. Agree that just going to another FCS would not move Gilmore even with more$$$ but a DC at a BCS school?

[ngineer]

INterestng comments about Gilmore. I got to meet on numerous occasions when at Lehigh, and I saw a guy with a 'fire' in his eye. Meaning that I expect him to be looking to make to the 'big time'. The route could be varied, but if he has a stellar season this year, it could be bon voyage time.

[DFW HOYA]

How long has Dick Biddle been at Colgate? I'm sure that he has had a fair amount of offers to go bigger but has declined.

Tenures of PL coaches entering 2009:

Biddle: 13 years, 104-49
Tavani: 8 years, 52-50
Landis: 6 years, 28-39
Gilmore: 5 years, 30-25
Coen: 3 years, 16-17
Masella: 3 years, 16-18
Kelly: 3 years, 5-27

[Franks Tanks]

Tenures of PL coaches entering 2009:

Biddle: 13 years, 104-49
Tavani: 8 years, 52-50
Gilmore: 5 years, 30-25
Landis: 5 years, 28-39
Coen: 3 years, 16-17
Masella: 3 years, 16-18
Kelly: 3 years, 5-27

Given the competive nature of the PL, that is a very impressive record for Biddle

[Pards Rule]

Indeed. Tavani was hampered in his first few years by that foolish LC public mulling about the future of its football program - including eliminating it. Recruits shied away in droves. It wasnt until 2004 he got traction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tenures of PL coaches entering 2009:

Biddle: 13 years, 104-49
Tavani: 8 years, 52-50
Gilmore: 5 years, 30-25
Landis: 5 years, 28-39
Coen: 3 years, 16-17
Masella: 3 years, 16-18
Kelly: 3 years, 5-27

That's the impressive one right there.

[Franks Tanks]

That's the impressive one right there.

That Landis has lasted 5 years?

Tom Gadd had a better record and a PL championship. FB may not be number 1 at Bucknell, but they should be a bit better than they have been over the last few years.

[CrusaderBob]

Landis: 5 years, 28-39

67 games over 5 years? Doesn't add up.

I think he's been there 6 years and is entering his 7th.

[Ken_Z]

Tom Gadd had a better record and a PL championship. FB may not be number 1 at Bucknell, but they should be a bit better than they have been over the last few years.


Gadd was an excellent coach and did very well particularly when you consider the limitations on resources. Bucknell generally expects the athletic department to overachieve i.e. meet our stated objective of being competitive in the PL, but you need to go raise any additional funds needed to make this possible.

Landis has not met this objective, but i suspect has survived beacaus the AD realizes that for football this approach is not viable over the long haul. The schools support for football seemed to be improving (prior to the current belt tightening, overall athletic budget cut more than 10% [actually heard 15% once]) and football specific fundraising efforts have improved a bit with the institution of the gridiron club.

In addition to some improvement in financial resources, they finally moved to a more viable offensive scheme last year. I expect to see some real on field performance dividends this year and am hopeful that the upward trend will continue from there.

[Franks Tanks]

67 games over 5 years? Doesn't add up.

I think he's been there 6 years and is entering his 7th.

Maybe that is his overall coaching record including St. Mary's

[TheValleyRaider]

67 games over 5 years? Doesn't add up.

I think he's been there 6 years and is entering his 7th.

It is 6 years. 2003 was Landis' first with the Bison
2003: 6-6
2004: 7-4
2005: 1-10
2006: 6-5
2007: 3-8
2008: 5-6
Total: 28-39

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is 6 years. 2003 was Landis' first with the Bison
2003: 6-6
2004: 7-4
2005: 1-10
2006: 6-5
2007: 3-8
2008: 5-6
Total: 28-39

Considering the resource limitations on Bucknell, that's what's so impressive about Landis' record. The only real dud was the 1-10 year - even the 3-8 season featured a season-ending win over Fordham.

[DFW HOYA]

I expect to see some real on field performance dividends this year and am hopeful that the upward trend will continue from there.

I'll take these comments for Georgetown as well, but, ugh, that 5-27 record doesn't look good under any objective view. Georgetown was a program that had three straight losing seasons just twice in its 120+ year history (1931,32,33and 1983,84,85.) Since 2000? Nine straight.

Are there any other I-AA teams that are under .500 the entire decade? I know of Indiana State and St. Francis, but not many others.

[Franks Tanks]

I'll take these comments for Georgetown as well, but, ugh, that 5-27 record doesn't look good under any objective view. Georgetown was a program that had three straight losing seasons just twice in its 120+ year history (1931,32,33and 1983,84,85.) Since 2000? Nine straight.

Are there any other I-AA teams that are under .500 the entire decade? I know of Indiana State and St. Francis, but not many others.

Neither Dartmouth or Columbia has posted a winning season this decade, but each has had one 5-5 season.

[carney2]

Money does talk, and if Gilmore was given a very tempting offer at an FBS school that can double his salary, I guess he would take it. But, I don't see him moving to another FCS school or to an FBS school just for the sake of "moving up." It would have to be a VERY compelling offer.

And Rich, who's to say that Gilmore isn't one of those special cases like Biddle? I can very easily envision Gilmore coaching for 10-15 more years and then "retiring" as the athletic director at Holy Cross.

At the risk of enraging Mr. 11 even more, but not intentionally doing so, I will hazard one more reason that Gilmore will be gone: Like Pete Lembo, he knows that the cupboard is bare.

[crusader11]

At the risk of enraging Mr. 11 even more, but not intentionally doing so, I will hazard one more reason that Gilmore will be gone: Like Pete Lembo, he knows that the cupboard is bare.

Well it's a good thing that many alums have been running to the market. The "Holy Cross Gridiron Leadership Council" was just recently formed to get more money, among many other things, into the program. The ability to upgrade facilities and make Holy Cross football a more appealing choice will undoubtedly help with recruiting. Things are looking up, Carney.

[carney2]

Well it's a good thing that many alums have been running to the market. The "Holy Cross Gridiron Leadership Council" was just recently formed to get more money, among many other things, into the program. The ability to upgrade facilities and make Holy Cross football a more appealing choice will undoubtedly help with recruiting. Things are looking up, Carney.

I am taking your word for it and am much encouraged. All of this will not, however, have much influence on 2010-2012 which I believe is the hurdle the 'saders need to get over.

Now, if we could hear more of this "things are moving forward" talk from (alphabetically) Bucknell, Georgetown and Lafayette my mood about the Patriot League and its future would be greatly improved.

[crusader11]

I am taking your word for it and am much encouraged. All of this will not, however, have much influence on 2010-2012 which I believe is the hurdle the 'saders need to get over.


That is a very good point. It sure will be interesting to see what kind of offense is instilled (I think it will be mostly the same with a bit more emphasis on the running game), and what kind of team HC has after Dom's departure.

For the record Carney, I am very jealous of Lafayette's field and fieldhouse. Very, very sharp.

[Pards Rule]

Thanks 11 - I contributed too! :)

[carney2]

For the record Carney, I am very jealous of Lafayette's field and fieldhouse. Very, very sharp.

A quality facility indeed. All hats off to Pards Rule and his checkbook. Of the (few) FCS facilities I've seen, only Princeton's is better.

[turbodean]

I've seen both. Princeton's stadium might be better, but I think LC has the better overall football complex.

[DFW HOYA]

Ther is a clear hierarchy on PL facilities (corrected):

First Tier: Lehigh, Lafayette (best in class)
Second Tier: Holy Cross, Bucknell, Colgate (older stadia, fewer practice facilities)
Third Tier: Fordham (half a stadium, no practice facility)
Still Talking About It Tier: Georgetown (enough said)

[TheValleyRaider]

Ther is a clear hierarchy on PL facilities:

First Tier: Lehigh, Lafayette (best in class)
Second Tier: Holy Cross, Bucknell (older stadia, fewer practice facilities)
Third Tier: Fordham (half a stadium, no practice facility)
Still Talking About It Tier: Georgetown (enough said)

Something's missing here, but I just can't put my finger on it.... xchinscratchx

[turbodean]

Third Tier: Fordham (half a stadium, no practice facility)

What do you consider a "practice facility"?


Something's missing here, but I just can't put my finger on it....

Maybe the champ's facility is in a league of its own?

[Go...gate]

Something's missing here, but I just can't put my finger on it.... xchinscratchx

What can we say? It's buried in snow 11 months a year.....xwhistlex

[Go...gate]

Something's missing here, but I just can't put my finger on it.... xchinscratchx

They forgot Villanova again....xrotatehx:)

[Fordham]

A quality facility indeed. All hats off to Pards Rule and his checkbook. Of the (few) FCS facilities I've seen, only Princeton's is better.

Agreed. I'm still blown away by that Pards facility (was able to witness a great, great game while there too!). Truly is an amazing place.

After making it back to Lehigh last year it was a nice reminder of how beautiful that entire side of the mountain is, though. Two very different facilities but still two tremendous ones. Can't imagine much better anywhere in FCS.

It's amazing you guys aren't MUCH better being able to recruit with facilities like that! <zing!> xpeacex

[Fordham]

Third Tier: Fordham (half a stadium, no practice facility)

Agreed on our tier but, to turbo's point - what are you defining as a practice facility? We have a separate field turf practice field on the opposite side of the gym/student center/fieldhouse from where the 1/2 a stadium is. Not sure if you weren't aware of that or aren't counting it for some reason.

[RichH2]

The real point s/n/b obscured that even with merit aid most of us have to upgrade facilities as best as able given economic swamp we are in

[carney2]

Agreed. I'm still blown away by that Pards facility (was able to witness a great, great game while there too!). Truly is an amazing place.

After making it back to Lehigh last year it was a nice reminder of how beautiful that entire side of the mountain is, though. Two very different facilities but still two tremendous ones. Can't imagine much better anywhere in FCS.

It's amazing you guys aren't MUCH better being able to recruit with facilities like that! <zing!> xpeacex

There ya go, Mr. F. You've hit one of my hot buttons. I've been brawling for over a year now with my fellow Pards over this. To have mid range (I prefer the term mediocre, but...) recruiting with this facility is an indictment of someone - or a lot of someones. The head coach? The assistants? Admissions? Financial Aid? The administration (putting financial pressure on the recruiting process)? All of the above? In any event, something really smells in the land of Lafayette football recruiting. The job ain't gettin' done.

I can't speak for or about Lehigh other than to say that in my opinion they are recruiting at a higher level than Lafayette at the moment.

[joecooll6]

I've read most of this thread and I have a question for you Patriot League folks. How does the current scholarship situation work in the PL? I've heard a lot about "equivelencies" but I never understood what that meant. Enlighten me.

[busybee14]

There ya go, Mr. F. You've hit one of my hot buttons. I've been brawling for over a year now with my fellow Pards over this. To have mid range (I prefer the term mediocre, but...) recruiting with this facility is an indictment of someone - or a lot of someones. The head coach? The assistants? Admissions? Financial Aid? The administration (putting financial pressure on the recruiting process)? All of the above? In any event, something really smells in the land of Lafayette football recruiting. The job ain't gettin' done.

I can't speak for or about Lehigh other than to say that in my opinion they are recruiting at a higher level than Lafayette at the moment.

As someone close to the recruiting action for a HS team in florida,I can tell you Lafeyette makes it much more trouble getting in touch with the coaches and staff than some of the other PL teams.If you go on the web site coaches can only be contacted via a team email and they never respond and rarley return calls.(The players reaching out to them are nationally ranked and considered top ten at respective positions in the state of FL)Fordham and Lehigh not only are very easy to get a hold of but also stay in touch at least weekly.We just assume Lafeyette is good enough already and dosent need new talent .

[ngineer]

There ya go, Mr. F. You've hit one of my hot buttons. I've been brawling for over a year now with my fellow Pards over this. To have mid range (I prefer the term mediocre, but...) recruiting with this facility is an indictment of someone - or a lot of someones. The head coach? The assistants? Admissions? Financial Aid? The administration (putting financial pressure on the recruiting process)? All of the above? In any event, something really smells in the land of Lafayette football recruiting. The job ain't gettin' done.

I can't speak for or about Lehigh other than to say that in my opinion they are recruiting at a higher level than Lafayette at the moment.

You may recall a few years back when there was all this brouhaha about LC's new stadium and how Lehigh wouldn't be able to recruit anymore because of our 'antiquated' scoreboard, etc... I said then, and I say now, that the type of student recruited in the PL is NOT looking at the facilities as the lure to the schoo. They are looking at degree programs, the coaching personnel, and the team atmosphere, as well as financial packages, academic facilities, etc. Yes, having a great weight room and nice stadium is nice and is part of the overall package, but in my experience, both as a former recruit in 1969 (when Lehigh's facilities were the pits) to now in speaking with current players, the Patriot League student-athlete is not going to be sold on the bricks and mortar of a program. He's going to be sold on what makes the college and program run.xcoolx

[CFBfan]

You are spot on ngineer....at least in my experience. my son was recruited by all but one PL school (Bucknell) and he was interetsed in and visited 5.....HC, LC, LU, Fordham & GTown, he's a good player but like 99% of the players in the PL, he is not going to be playing on Sunday afternoons and so the school/academics and the area it was in were very important resulting in him choosing GTown....obviously not for the facilty or even the program.....just my 2cents.

[Franks Tanks]

I've read most of this thread and I have a question for you Patriot League folks. How does the current scholarship situation work in the PL? I've heard a lot about "equivelencies" but I never understood what that meant. Enlighten me.

In its basic form we technically do not give scholarships, but rather need based financial aid. The recruit must fill out a finanical aid form and based on that information then school will offer a few grand a year in aid all the way up to a full ride. This merit aid is counted as scholarship by the NCAA however under scholarship equiliviencies. Most PL schools give out enough FB aid to equal about 50 scholarships. We want scholarships to take the need based formula out of the equation.

It differs from the Ivy league as aid in the Patriot is tied to the fact that one plays FB. So if a player quits a good postion of their aid will disappear. All aid in the Ivy or Pioneer is suspossed to be the same that is available to any student.

[Franks Tanks]

You may recall a few years back when there was all this brouhaha about LC's new stadium and how Lehigh wouldn't be able to recruit anymore because of our 'antiquated' scoreboard, etc... I said then, and I say now, that the type of student recruited in the PL is NOT looking at the facilities as the lure to the schoo. They are looking at degree programs, the coaching personnel, and the team atmosphere, as well as financial packages, academic facilities, etc. Yes, having a great weight room and nice stadium is nice and is part of the overall package, but in my experience, both as a former recruit in 1969 (when Lehigh's facilities were the pits) to now in speaking with current players, the Patriot League student-athlete is not going to be sold on the bricks and mortar of a program. He's going to be sold on what makes the college and program run.xcoolx


I agree that facilities are a small part of the equation. I was recruited by just about all of the PL schools way back in 1998. I choose Lafayette because everything justfelt right. I liked the coaches, the school, and the players on the team the best. I didnt care all that much about facilities, and I was convinced the team was about to turn around. It did, just about 2 years later than I would have liked.

[carney2]

I said then, and I say now, that the type of student recruited in the PL is NOT looking at the facilities as the lure to the school.

I could not disagree more. We are talking about 17 and 18 year old kids. The fact that they are football players does not differentiate them from the other 17 and 18 year olds that the school attracts. Colleges have had to add spacious and sparkling workout facilities, saunas, state of the art dorms and play areas, etc. to "compete" for students. (Note that none of this has anything to do with education.) With colleges, as with life, the icing is frequently more important than the cake. No difference on jock row. The football facilities will play bigger to the average football recruit than most of the rest of the equation unless and until cooler heads (parents and respected advisers) intervene. (Now you'll be telling me that football recruits get better advice than the rest of the students.)

Back to the case at hand: it is my contention that, not only has Lafayette not taken advantage of this recruiting edge, I personally believe that it is currently operating at a lower level than in the dirty wooden slats Fisher Field days. Recruiting is most certainly not on the upswing.

[RichH2]

I pre-date engineer by a few years. I graduated the yr before you started.Taylor Stadium was no great lure but Lehigh was. While Cooley was great for me as a Lineman to say that LU had deemphasized would be an understatement.I think there were only 10 or 11 osf us that were recruits lots of walkons. Did get a yr with Dunlap which was great.

[DFW HOYA]

Agreed on our tier but, to turbo's point - what are you defining as a practice facility? We have a separate field turf practice field on the opposite side of the gym/student center/fieldhouse from where the 1/2 a stadium is. Not sure if you weren't aware of that or aren't counting it for some reason.

I must have missed it. This is not Murphy Field you're talking about?

[ngineer]

I could not disagree more. We are talking about 17 and 18 year old kids. The fact that they are football players does not differentiate them from the other 17 and 18 year olds that the school attracts. Colleges have had to add spacious and sparkling workout facilities, saunas, state of the art dorms and play areas, etc. to "compete" for students. (Note that none of this has anything to do with education.) With colleges, as with life, the icing is frequently more important than the cake. No difference on jock row. The football facilities will play bigger to the average football recruit than most of the rest of the equation unless and until cooler heads (parents and respected advisers) intervene. (Now you'll be telling me that football recruits get better advice than the rest of the students.)

Back to the case at hand: it is my contention that, not only has Lafayette not taken advantage of this recruiting edge, I personally believe that it is currently operating at a lower level than in the dirty wooden slats Fisher Field days. Recruiting is most certainly not on the upswing.

I did not say facilities had no role in recruiting. I do believe, at the PL level, that people look at our schools because of where they think it will land them in 4-5 years, and it aint' the NFL. When in comes down to making a decision between two or three schools, facilities, again, come into the equation, but I think get no more than 25% weight. It's where the student is going feel most 'at home' or 'this is college' ambiance which is usually caused by the people as opposed to a stadium.