SWAC and MEAC _ The Best of the Best!!!!

[Mr. Tiger]

I knew the title of this thread would get your attention. I ran across this website and decide to join up because I am a big fan of Division I-AA football. I am also a big fan of the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that seem to get a lot of negative comments and no respect on this site. Some suggest the MEAC shouldn't even receive an automatic bid. But have you ever wondered why the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that have produced great NFL talent can't win Division I-AA playoff games or decide against competing for the I-AA championship. If the answer is "No" and you slammed the two conferences :nonono2: :nono: that's a pity. And if you said it is all bad coaching :nonono2: :nono: again what a pity. The MEAC and SWAC haven't done well in the playoffs mostly because the conference can't effectively recruit offensive and defensive linemen. Linemen are harder to find than skill players and there is a segment of recruits the SWAC and MEAC can't draw. There are several receivers, running backs, and other skill players from the SWAC and MEAC that have been great college and NFL players, from Walter Payton to Jerry Rice. Quick, name more than two great linemen from the two conferences. Don't strain yourself because they are few and far between. So when the MEAC and SWAC faces playoff teams they are often superior at the skill positions but outmanned upfront. And upfront is where the game is won. As for the SWAC not participating in the playoffs. SWAC schools have been underfunded for years. Those classics some of you make fun of, the Bayou Classic, and the conference championship games help SWAC schools pay the bills. The classics often draw 40,000 to 60,000 fans. Going to the playoffs draws 8,000 and doesn't help pay the bills and SWAC schools don't have the money to give up that kind of payday because without that revenue other sports can't survive. But what the SWAC and the MEAC are the best of the best in is making do with the little they receive and doing what most Division I-AA conferences can only dream of -- filling a stadium and receiving television coverage. So does the MEAC and SWAC deserve respect, yes, because the conferences face obstacles others don't and have learned to make money and grow fan bases most D I-AA schools could only dream of.

[Cap'n Cat]

I knew the title of this thread would get your attention. I ran across this website and decide to join up because I am a big fan of Division I-AA football. I am also a big fan of the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that seem to get a lot of negative comments and no respect on this site. Some suggest the MEAC shouldn't even receive an automatic bid. But have you ever wondered why the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that have produced great NFL talent can't win Division I-AA playoff games or decide against competing for the I-AA championship. If the answer is "No" and you slammed the two conferences :nonono2: :nono: that's a pity. And if you said it is all bad coaching :nonono2: :nono: again what a pity. The MEAC and SWAC haven't done well in the playoffs mostly because the conference can't effectively recruit offensive and defensive linemen. Linemen are harder to find than skill players and there is a segment of recruits the SWAC and MEAC can't draw. There are several receivers, running backs, and other skill players from the SWAC and MEAC that have been great college and NFL players, from Walter Payton to Jerry Rice. Quick, name more than two great linemen from the two conferences. Don't strain yourself because they are few and far between. So when the MEAC and SWAC faces playoff teams they are often superior at the skill positions but outmanned upfront. And upfront is where the game is won. As for the SWAC not participating in the playoffs. SWAC schools have been underfunded for years. Those classics some of you make fun of, the Bayou Classic, and the conference championship games help SWAC schools pay the bills. The classics often draw 40,000 to 60,000 fans. Going to the playoffs draws 8,000 and doesn't help pay the bills and SWAC schools don't have the money to give up that kind of payday because without that revenue other sports can't survive. But what the SWAC and the MEAC are the best of the best in is making do with the little they receive and doing what most Division I-AA conferences can only dream of -- filling a stadium and receiving television coverage. So does the MEAC and SWAC deserve respect, yes, because the conferences face obstacles others don't and have learned to make money and grow fan bases most D I-AA schools could only dream of.


Old.

:boring:

[txstatebobcat]

It all depends on how you look at it. Last time I read on bobcatfans.com(couple of hours ago), we(Texas State) are only 700 tickets away from selling out our stadium for a game that will be televised on ESPN2. This is all thanks to the playoffs.

The playoffs are bringing in former students and alumni that haven't even been in San Marcos in at least a dozen years. The NCAA may take its cut, which is most of the revenue from this upcoming game, but they won't take any of the money made from donations and future season ticket sales.


How come SWAC and MEAC can't recruit D or O-linemen?

[slostang]

I knew the title of this thread would get your attention. I ran across this website and decide to join up because I am a big fan of Division I-AA football. I am also a big fan of the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that seem to get a lot of negative comments and no respect on this site. Some suggest the MEAC shouldn't even receive an automatic bid. But have you ever wondered why the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that have produced great NFL talent can't win Division I-AA playoff games or decide against competing for the I-AA championship. If the answer is "No" and you slammed the two conferences :nonono2: :nono: that's a pity. And if you said it is all bad coaching :nonono2: :nono: again what a pity. The MEAC and SWAC haven't done well in the playoffs mostly because the conference can't effectively recruit offensive and defensive linemen. Linemen are harder to find than skill players and there is a segment of recruits the SWAC and MEAC can't draw. There are several receivers, running backs, and other skill players from the SWAC and MEAC that have been great college and NFL players, from Walter Payton to Jerry Rice. Quick, name more than two great linemen from the two conferences. Don't strain yourself because they are few and far between. So when the MEAC and SWAC faces playoff teams they are often superior at the skill positions but outmanned upfront. And upfront is where the game is won. As for the SWAC not participating in the playoffs. SWAC schools have been underfunded for years. Those classics some of you make fun of, the Bayou Classic, and the conference championship games help SWAC schools pay the bills. The classics often draw 40,000 to 60,000 fans. Going to the playoffs draws 8,000 and doesn't help pay the bills and SWAC schools don't have the money to give up that kind of payday because without that revenue other sports can't survive. But what the SWAC and the MEAC are the best of the best in is making do with the little they receive and doing what most Division I-AA conferences can only dream of -- filling a stadium and receiving television coverage. So does the MEAC and SWAC deserve respect, yes, because the conferences face obstacles others don't and have learned to make money and grow fan bases most D I-AA schools could only dream of.

Welcome to AGS. Good post and something that I have never thought of. Thanks for the another view.

[Mr. Tiger]

It all depends on how you look at it. Last time I read on bobcatfans.com(couple of hours ago), we(Texas State) are only 700 tickets away from selling out our stadium for a game that will be televised on ESPN2. This is all thanks to the playoffs.

The playoffs are bringing in former students and alumni that haven't even been in San Marcos in at least a dozen years. The NCAA may take its cut, which is most of the revenue from this upcoming game, but they won't take any of the money made from donations and future season ticket sales.


How come SWAC and MEAC can't recruit D or O-linemen?


Well, it's quite simple. It is easier to find players that are 6-2, 217 pounds and can run, than it is to find a 6-3 320-pound kid that is strong and can move. Then you throw in the fact that SWAC and MEAC schools have a hard time recruiting white players and that cuts deeply into the pool of line talent. So traditional we end up with a bunch of fat high schoolers who aren't very fast off the ball and need a lot of work in the weight room. While other D I-AA schools can draw from the entire pool of line talent which is still thinner than the talent pool at the skill positions.

[GSUsTALON]

A lot of people say a lot of things & the squeeky wheel gets the oil or your attention. Although Ive been away from this board for a while I dont think most of the posters have a problem with the MEAC having an outo bid.

Classics- no problem again & wish GSU could get some of that CLASSIC MONEY. Most of the s**t slinging on the smack board is directed at the SWACers because the TURKEY DAY CLASSIC doesn't allow them in the playoffs. Down deep I dont have a problem with the SWAKers not partisipating but if youre going to make compairsons about how a SWAC team would fair in the !AA playoff system & dont show up your going to get trash talk. Most 1AA programs hurt for money. Many choose to get their ass kicked by a 1A power to pay the bills.


We've won with undersized linemen for.......... well since 1984. Youed have to pull the linemens weights of the top 20 1AA programs to prove that we all dont suffer from a lack of size. Ive seen some 1aa passing teams with heffers up front and they just weren't that good.

[Chi Panther]

I knew the title of this thread would get your attention. I ran across this website and decide to join up because I am a big fan of Division I-AA football. I am also a big fan of the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that seem to get a lot of negative comments and no respect on this site. Some suggest the MEAC shouldn't even receive an automatic bid. But have you ever wondered why the SWAC and MEAC, two conferences that have produced great NFL talent can't win Division I-AA playoff games or decide against competing for the I-AA championship. If the answer is "No" and you slammed the two conferences :nonono2: :nono: that's a pity. And if you said it is all bad coaching :nonono2: :nono: again what a pity. The MEAC and SWAC haven't done well in the playoffs mostly because the conference can't effectively recruit offensive and defensive linemen. Linemen are harder to find than skill players and there is a segment of recruits the SWAC and MEAC can't draw. There are several receivers, running backs, and other skill players from the SWAC and MEAC that have been great college and NFL players, from Walter Payton to Jerry Rice. Quick, name more than two great linemen from the two conferences. Don't strain yourself because they are few and far between. So when the MEAC and SWAC faces playoff teams they are often superior at the skill positions but outmanned upfront. And upfront is where the game is won. As for the SWAC not participating in the playoffs. SWAC schools have been underfunded for years. Those classics some of you make fun of, the Bayou Classic, and the conference championship games help SWAC schools pay the bills. The classics often draw 40,000 to 60,000 fans. Going to the playoffs draws 8,000 and doesn't help pay the bills and SWAC schools don't have the money to give up that kind of payday because without that revenue other sports can't survive. But what the SWAC and the MEAC are the best of the best in is making do with the little they receive and doing what most Division I-AA conferences can only dream of -- filling a stadium and receiving television coverage. So does the MEAC and SWAC deserve respect, yes, because the conferences face obstacles others don't and have learned to make money and grow fan bases most D I-AA schools could only dream of.

Well.....I think you might be recruiting O and D-linemen in the wrong areas.....there is no shortage of BIG Linemen in the Uppper Midwest......

[FlyBoy8]

So how come the MEAC and the SWAC don't do well in basketball? Can't recruit good forwards?

:confused:



Let me clarify. My point is that saying you can't recruit linemen is misleading. It would probably be more accurate to say that I-AA HBCUs struggle in recruiting at every position, but the talent level is smaller on the lines, which is exposed when you play "other" schools.

So, the problem doesn't have to do with linemen, it has to do with recruiting. And that begs the question - why do HBCUs struggle in recruiting more than other I-AA schools? Well, the answer seems obvious to me - because in I-AA, the HBCUs are at the bottom of the pile.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Recruiting is a problem, but it's not THE problem. It's just part of it. Part of the circle.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

So how come the MEAC and the SWAC don't do well in basketball? Can't recruit good forwards?
The Meac and Swac has done well in basketball in the past. SU beat Georgia Tech in the Ncaa tournament in 1993. SU was ranked no 21 in the top 25 polls in 1991. Avery Johnson(SU 88) is currently the head coach of the Dallas Mavericks. The Meac has also done well in the Ncaa Tournament with Hampton, Coppin State winning games in the past. Southern University has also produced some of the best ametuer baseball talent over the last couple of years. From 2001-2003 SU had 24(more than any other college during that period) players get drafted. The crown jewel was Rickie Weeks, who won the Dick Howser award(baseball heisman), and every other baseball award that year. Before we speak please do some research. xlolx

[FlyBoy8]

My research consisted of checking the final 2005 RPI ratings and finding the SWAC ranked 31 of 32 conferences and the MEAC ranked 28th. I'm not much of a basketball fan, so I assume it was just a bad year for you guys? :confused:

Either way, I'd rather you reply to my comments on football, which is what this thread/board is about.




EDIT: I went back and checked rankings back to 1999. The highest the MEAC was ranked was 27th and the highest the SWAC was ranked was 29th. And in 1999, 2000, 2002 and 2003, the SWAC and the MEAC were the two lowest rated conferences in the country.

:eyebrow:

Tell me, is there some kind of brainwashing you go through that renders you unable to accept that your conference isn't very good, or what? I deal in facts. Stats. Wins. Losses. When you can explain to me in those terms how good you are, I'd be happy to give your teams some love. Until then, this "people that criticize us are ignorant" attitude is ridiculous.

[Menudo]

Well I look at it from a totally different picture.

I would say that its very hard to recruit someone non-african american to a school that is predominatly 90% African American. Most people feel comfortable with people with similar interest or who they can associate with. Its that simple. So what is left to recruit? Of course, recruit african americans to these african american schools, but hold up. Most talented African Americans go to the big name schools so they can get noticed, and the then go on to the nfl. Thats not to say HBCU's do not have talented players, but the majority will follow the money.

[FlyBoy8]

Well I look at it from a totally different picture.

I would say that its very hard to recruit someone non-african american to a school that is predominatly 90% African American. Most people feel comfortable with people with similar interest or who they can associate with. Its that simple. So what is left to recruit? Of course, recruit african americans to these african american schools, but hold up. Most talented African Americans go to the big name schools so they can get noticed, and the then go on to the nfl. Thats not to say HBCU's do not have talented players, but the majority will follow the money.

I think you're right on. In order for the SWAC and the MEAC to be competitive, they have to find a way to attract some of the African-American talent that is shunning them for "PWCs."

How do they do it? Simple - they need to get better. No matter which way you slice it, it just isn't that attractive when a recruit sees that your conference is at the bottom of the heap. But how do they get better without the better athletes?

If I knew, I'd be a commish somewhere.

[TexasTerror]

Even when SWAC schools get budget increases or loads of money from the Classics, does it go back to the AD? Does it get used correctly? I'm not quite sure it does because it seems these programs are still largely underfunded or put all the $$$ into football and ignore the other sports...

[GSUsTALON]

My research consisted of checking the final 2005 RPI ratings and finding the SWAC ranked 31 of 32 conferences and the MEAC ranked 28th. I'm not much of a basketball fan, so I assume it was just a bad year for you guys? :confused:

Either way, I'd rather you reply to my comments on football, which is what this thread/board is about.




EDIT: I went back and checked rankings back to 1999. The highest the MEAC was ranked was 27th and the highest the SWAC was ranked was 29th. And in 1999, 2000, 2002 and 2003, the SWAC and the MEAC were the two lowest rated conferences in the country.

:eyebrow:

Tell me, is there some kind of brainwashing you go through that renders you unable to accept that your conference isn't very good, or what? I deal in facts. Stats. Wins. Losses. When you can explain to me in those terms how good you are, I'd be happy to give your teams some love. Until then, this "people that criticize us are ignorant" attitude is ridiculous.


well dont get mad flyboy :argue:

[Menudo]

I think you're right on. In order for the SWAC and the MEAC to be competitive, they have to find a way to attract some of the African-American talent that is shunning them for "PWCs."

How do they do it? Simple - they need to get better. No matter which way you slice it, it just isn't that attractive when a recruit sees that your conference is at the bottom of the heap. But how do they get better without the better athletes?

If I knew, I'd be a commish somewhere.

Well I think the only way to get better is to keep winning. Increase your budget, increase scholarship and honestly get your name out there. Im from California and did not even learn about Hampton until I was junior in High School and started looking at colleges. I had very little knowledge of schools in the east coast. Most people never heard of Hampton University until we beat Iowa state in the playoffs. Also some of these people that do make it to the NFL and to other professional sports. How often do they discuss HBCU's? I talk about Hampton all the time but i do so on an academic level. Proton Beam Cancer Center anyone?

[bluedog]

Southwestern Athletic Conference Rankings (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/southwestern/conf_rankings.php)

Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference Rankings (http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/mideastern/conf_rankings.php)

[bandl]

Well I think the only way to get better is to keep winning. Increase your budget, increase scholarship and honestly get your name out there.

That's the only way I can see it happening. It seems that HU is on the right path...maybe they'll win a playoff game soon, get a little more exposure and then be able to recruit some better players. They seem to have the coaching staff. They need a stronger OOC schedule as well. Not only for the players, but for exposure.

[Tribe4SF]

Well, whatever the reason, I have to agree that the consistent difference I've seen between MEAC/SWAC teams and other I-AA playoff teams has been line play. This is based primarily on the three games W&M has played against Hampton....last weeks Hampton/Richmond game....and the 1996 first round game between W&M and Jackson State. These were all games I saw in person, and involved what were considered the best of the MEAC/SWAC.

In each of these games, I felt line play was the deciding factor (although some would argue that the '98 Hampton loss to W&M resulted from "official's play" :) ). The other difference I saw in all those games was quality depth. In last year's W&M/Hampton game, the Tribe rotated 8 defensive lineman throughout the game. Jerome Mathis was so outstanding, he nearly won the game by himself. But a mediocre Tribe rushing attack had 298 yards on 41 carries, while Coleman and Daniels were held to 85 on 25 carries. Against Richmond last week, they had 46 yards on 20 carries. Believe me, those numbers didn't happen because Coleman and Daniels aren't good backs.

[Ivytalk]

It all depends on how you look at it. Last time I read on bobcatfans.com(couple of hours ago), we(Texas State) are only 700 tickets away from selling out our stadium for a game that will be televised on ESPN2. This is all thanks to the playoffs.

The playoffs are bringing in former students and alumni that haven't even been in San Marcos in at least a dozen years. The NCAA may take its cut, which is most of the revenue from this upcoming game, but they won't take any of the money made from donations and future season ticket sales.


How come SWAC and MEAC can't recruit D or O-linemen?

I hear that the ghost of LBJ may even make an appearance!! :D

[# 1 BearBooster]

Well I look at it from a totally different picture.

I would say that its very hard to recruit someone non-african american to a school that is predominatly 90% African American. Most people feel comfortable with people with similar interest or who they can associate with. Its that simple. So what is left to recruit? Of course, recruit african americans to these african american schools, but hold up. Most talented African Americans go to the big name schools so they can get noticed, and the then go on to the nfl. Thats not to say HBCU's do not have talented players, but the majority will follow the money.


It seems some of my friends forgot what the Civil Rights Movement was about.

[# 1 BearBooster]

1. Basketball- there have only been five number 15 seeds to beat a number 2 in the NCAA tournament. The MEAC has two of those victories (Coppin in 97, Hampton in 2001). That's 40% from ONE conference.

2. HBCU Basketball in general is great, just take a look at the winningest men's basketball coaches. Dean Smith leads the list with 879 wins, Bob Knight is second with 850 wins (he's still coaching). Number 3 on the list is Clarence "Big House" Gaines. He retired in 1993, and passed earlier this year, but his 828 wins still place him in the third place for wins overall in men's college basketball. He coached at Winston-Salem State, in the CIAA. BTW, the sixth winningest coach in men's college basketball is John Chaney, with 721 wins. John Chaney was educated at Bethune-Cookman College (member of of the MEAC) and began his coaching career at Cheyney State (also an HBCU).

3. The CIAA- the best in HBCU basketball is the Div. II CIAA. Most Black players who want an HBCU experience would rather play in the CIAA than they would the MEAC or the SWAC, because of the tradition of winning basketball AND sending players to the NBA that the CIAA has. I wish the entire CIAA would move to Div. I, and become a basketball only leaugue. Believe me when I tell you this, there would be some HUGE changes in the NCAA if that happened.

Yes, there have been once in a bluemoon exceptions. However, overall SWAC and MEAC Basketball are competitively very poor. Their records against non-conference opponents is a testiment to this fact. Both conferences are rated near or at the bottom of Division I schools.

[AppGuy04]

1. Basketball- there have only been five number 15 seeds to beat a number 2 in the NCAA tournament. The MEAC has two of those victories (Coppin in 97, Hampton in 2001). That's 40% from ONE conference.

2. HBCU Basketball in general is great, just take a look at the winningest men's basketball coaches. Dean Smith leads the list with 879 wins, Bob Knight is second with 850 wins (he's still coaching). Number 3 on the list is Clarence "Big House" Gaines. He retired in 1993, and passed earlier this year, but his 828 wins still place him in the third place for wins overall in men's college basketball. He coached at Winston-Salem State, in the CIAA. BTW, the sixth winningest coach in men's college basketball is John Chaney, with 721 wins. John Chaney was educated at Bethune-Cookman College (member of of the MEAC) and began his coaching career at Cheyney State (also an HBCU).

3. The CIAA- the best in HBCU basketball is the Div. II CIAA. Most Black players who want an HBCU experience would rather play in the CIAA than they would the MEAC or the SWAC, because of the tradition of winning basketball AND sending players to the NBA that the CIAA has. I wish the entire CIAA would move to Div. I, and become a basketball only leaugue. Believe me when I tell you this, there would be some HUGE changes in the NCAA if that happened.

aren't NCA&T and NCCU trying to grow their football programs, so they wouldn't want to go basketball only

[Tribe4SF]

I definitely would, and since I know the receiver who caught that pass VERY WELL, everytime I see him I let him know that he was tackled. He obviously doesn't agree, but what are you going do? xlolx

He may deny it to you, but inside the Tribe family, we'd laugh him out of the room. To his credit, it was a great catch, and one of the most "heads up" plays I've ever seen.

The end of that game is relevant to this discussion, though. Mike Cook was getting time to throw, and was on fire. Hampton got the ball back, but was unable to move effectively. The Tribe fronts took control in the second half, as was the case in the other games I cited above. Although I didn't get to see HU's playoff game against Connecticut that year, I understand the script was similar.

WMTribe90 could offer good insight here. He was at DE that day for W&M.

[AppGuy04]

A&T is about to do some very big things. They are already Div. I, as they are members of the MEAC. Central just moved to Div. I, and has applied to the MEAC. Since they were a founding member of the MEAC, they will more than likely be accepted into the conference. I just would like to see the entire CIAA, including WSSU and NCCU, move to Div. I as a basketball only league. To me, that would be the easiest and most cost effective way to make a serious impact on Div. I. Imagine the CIAA, as big as it already is in Div. II (in terms of attention and revenue) as a Div. I conference. That would be HUGE! Look at what Dave Robbins has been able to do year in and year out at VUU- including his most recent National Championship in 2005- and think about what he could do with a Div. I schedule and the opportunity to tell recruits that they would be playing for a Div. I Championship in March Madness. Like I said, there would be some HUGE changes in in Div. I basketball.

you think they would bring the tourney back to Raleigh? its alot of revenue for our city that week

[TypicalTribe]

A&T is about to do some very big things. They are already Div. I, as they are members of the MEAC. Central just moved to Div. I, and has applied to the MEAC. Since they were a founding member of the MEAC, they will more than likely be accepted into the conference. I just would like to see the entire CIAA, including WSSU and NCCU, move to Div. I as a basketball only league. To me, that would be the easiest and most cost effective way to make a serious impact on Div. I. Imagine the CIAA, as big as it already is in Div. II (in terms of attention and revenue) as a Div. I conference. That would be HUGE! Look at what Dave Robbins has been able to do year in and year out at VUU- including his most recent National Championship in 2005- and think about what he could do with a Div. I schedule and the opportunity to tell recruits that they would be playing for a Div. I Championship in March Madness. Like I said, there would be some HUGE changes in in Div. I basketball.

Just for clarification purporses, what would the HUGE changes be?

[# 1 BearBooster]

Just for clarification purporses, what would the HUGE changes be?


TypicalTribe: My question too. It's sounds rather imbigious. Shellshock, can you be a little bit more precise.

[AppGuy04]

No- I think the CIAA is going to to be bigger than ever in Charlotte. The chance to partner with an NBA franchise in an NBA building (no disrespect to the RBC Center; Ilove that building) and getting that constant corporate push that they always get, but with a boost from the NBA's corporate clientele, are going to make Charlotte a very attractive destination for not only this three year contract, but for years to come.

thats too bad, I hate the NBA!!! :bang:

[AppGuy04]

I don't like their product much these days either, but having worked/attended several NBA All-Star games, I can definitely be witness to the amount of business that takes place and money that changes hands throughout that leauge and its corporate sponsors.

I don't doubt it, I just don't like the style of the game, there are very few actual "teams," just a bunch of whiny millionares

[Cap'n Cat]

Constant string of thought through all SWAC/MEAC threads, fellas: Money.

It's never about the game, be it basketball or football. It's about ancillary things like attendance, corporate sponsorship and cash. Nevermind that the product is substandard. And, year after year, the cash never seems to upgrade the product! Why?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

Think about it.


OK, back to what you were doing before.

xcoffeex

[Chi Panther]

1. Basketball- there have only been five number 15 seeds to beat a number 2 in the NCAA tournament. The MEAC has two of those victories (Coppin in 97, Hampton in 2001). That's 40% from ONE conference.

2. HBCU Basketball in general is great, just take a look at the winningest men's basketball coaches. Dean Smith leads the list with 879 wins, Bob Knight is second with 850 wins (he's still coaching). Number 3 on the list is Clarence "Big House" Gaines. He retired in 1993, and passed earlier this year, but his 828 wins still place him in the third place for wins overall in men's college basketball. He coached at Winston-Salem State, in the CIAA. BTW, the sixth winningest coach in men's college basketball is John Chaney, with 721 wins. John Chaney was educated at Bethune-Cookman College (member of of the MEAC) and began his coaching career at Cheyney State (also an HBCU).



3. The CIAA- the best in HBCU basketball is the Div. II CIAA. Most Black players who want an HBCU experience would rather play in the CIAA than they would the MEAC or the SWAC, because of the tradition of winning basketball AND sending players to the NBA that the CIAA has. I wish the entire CIAA would move to Div. I, and become a basketball only leaugue. Believe me when I tell you this, there would be some HUGE changes in the NCAA if that happened.


The Hampton vs Iowa State game was an amazing game....I wanted ISU to win....but what an exciting game! :)

[bandl]

I agree to an extent, but there are some guys who seem to "get it"- Garnett, Shaq (my frat brother, by the way), and Ben Wallace (a CIAA alum) just to name a few. Michael Redd is also one of the ones who gets it. I had an opportunity to talk to him just a few weeks ago. I thouroughly enjoyed speaking with that young man.
Ben Wallace, that's the guy's name!!!! The CIAA tourney came up in another thread, and I went to the tourney with my roommate at the time because his dad was an alumni of Virginia Union (dammit...or was it State??). I had heard later on that we witnessed at player in that tourney who did pretty well in the NBA.

[# 1 BearBooster]

Constant string of thought through all SWAC/MEAC threads, fellas: Money.

It's never about the game, be it basketball or football. It's about ancillary things like attendance, corporate sponsorship and cash. Nevermind that the product is substandard. And, year after year, the cash never seems to upgrade the product! Why?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

Think about it.


OK, back to what you were doing before.

xcoffeex


Cap'n Cat: Outstanding point. And, a question that will not be answered.

[Cap'n Cat]

Cap'n Cat: Outstanding point. And, a question that will not be answered.


Hey, more power to 'em, but we need a dose of perspective before we jump around and deify them.

:rolleyes:

[txstatebobcat]

I hear that the ghost of LBJ may even make an appearance!! :D


I hope not!! xlolx

[Mr. Tiger]

Constant string of thought through all SWAC/MEAC threads, fellas: Money.

It's never about the game, be it basketball or football. It's about ancillary things like attendance, corporate sponsorship and cash. Nevermind that the product is substandard. And, year after year, the cash never seems to upgrade the product! Why?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow: :eyebrow:

Think about it.


OK, back to what you were doing before.

xcoffeex

Good point. I feel it is because the SWAC and MEAC schools are not allocating enough money to their athletic programs. For years these schools have been underfunded so pumping money into athletics was seen by school presidents as wasteful. Still is to some. So football is being used to pay all of the athletic bills. But money won't solve the defensive and offensive line woes. That's a major recruiting problem that kills the SWAC and MEAC in the postseason and in non-conference play. Carry On... xprost2x

[PantherMan]

The MEAC and SWAC haven't done well in the playoffs mostly because the conference can't effectively recruit offensive and defensive linemen. Linemen are harder to find than skill players and there is a segment of recruits the SWAC and MEAC can't draw.

Good guards are "a dime a dozen" when it comes to basketball...good right-handed pitchers are prevalent in baseball..and on and on and on. If these two conferences are not able to recruit talented players at key positions on the football field, it is not a reason for the rest of us to feel sorry for you guys, it's just the way it is. And no, I do not believe the MEAC should have an autobid for the IAA playoffs, as exhibited by this year's performance. :eek:

[AppGuy04]

Good point. I feel it is because the SWAC and MEAC schools are not allocating enough money to their athletic programs. For years these schools have been underfunded so pumping money into athletics was seen by school presidents as wasteful. Still is to some. So football is being used to pay all of the athletic bills. But money won't solve the defensive and offensive line woes. That's a major recruiting problem that kills the SWAC and MEAC in the postseason and in non-conference play. Carry On... xprost2x

Then where the hell is the money going? the band??? :confused:

[AppGuy04]

This whole "underfunded" notion is a falsehood. It is definitely painting with a wide brush. Let me say this- there is NOTHING at Hampton University that is underfunded, nor at Howard, nor Southern, nor A&T, etc. Athletics at SOME of these schools is not important. Academics are. That's the difference. The schools with powerful athletic programs recruit athletes to be athletes, that is all. They are not concerned about those guys academics. Schools that are PRIMARILY concerned about academics recruit athletes that are both, students and scholars. That's the difference.

so where would you classify Grambling?

[FlyBoy8]

The schools with powerful athletic programs recruit athletes to be athletes, that is all. They are not concerned about those guys academics. Schools that are PRIMARILY concerned about academics recruit athletes that are both, students and scholars. That's the difference.

Are you saying a school that cares about academics can't field good athletics teams?

And which specific "powerful athletic programs" that "are not not concerned about academics" are you referring to?

[Mr. Tiger]

The money isn't going to the band, it is going to the other sports. Football is playing the bills for volleyball, tennis, baseball, etc. School presidents are not allocating enough money to those sports. As far as Hampton is concerned, Hampton is not a state supported school. But most Division I-AA MEAC and SWAC schools are state supported and have been underfunded in the past. In Mississippi, there was a long-running federal desegregation case to address this problem. The federal court did rule that the HBCUs in Mississippi were underfunded and had been for decades. A settlement was reached with the state about four to five years ago. I am not saying that anyone should feel sorry for anybody, but given that Florida A&M won the first Division I-AA championship and MEAC teams have gotten past the first round since then, including two teams in 1999, the MEAC has earned the right to participate in the playoff system.

[Mr. Tiger]

This whole "underfunded" notion is a falsehood. It is definitely painting with a wide brush. Let me say this- there is NOTHING at Hampton University that is underfunded, nor at Howard, nor Southern, nor A&T, etc. Athletics at SOME of these schools is not important. Academics are. That's the difference. The schools with powerful athletic programs recruit athletes to be athletes, that is all. They are not concerned about those guys academics. Schools that are PRIMARILY concerned about academics recruit athletes that are both, students and scholars. That's the difference.

:eyebrow: You should have seen Southern's dorm rooms in the 1990s and you definitely would not have them on that list. The campus and its dorms look much better now.

[GannonFan]

For one- imagine a conference of small HBCUs becoming a power conference in Div. I. Also, could you imagine an HBCU winning a Div. I basketball championship? It could happen, if the ENTIRE CIAA moves up. It won't happen, for numerous reasons. You can't fault a guy for dreaming though, can you?

I think you seriously underestimate the strength of the BCS schools (I know it's a football term but it's applicable in terms of basketball as well) with regards to monopolizing the national championships. A mid major school hasn't even made the Final Four, let alone win a national title, since 1979 - that's 26 years. And despite some gains by mids in the past few years, it ain't getting any better. Even if the CIAA moved up, why do you figure them to be so good? Right now, unless I missed a team, they have all of 1 team in the DII top 25 (Virginia Union). If that league is so stacked, why the underrepresentation in the rankings?

[AppGuy04]

I think you seriously underestimate the strength of the BCS schools (I know it's a football term but it's applicable in terms of basketball as well) with regards to monopolizing the national championships. A mid major school hasn't even made the Final Four, let alone win a national title, since 1979 - that's 26 years. And despite some gains by mids in the past few years, it ain't getting any better. Even if the CIAA moved up, why do you figure them to be so good? Right now, unless I missed a team, they have all of 1 team in the DII top 25 (Virginia Union). If that league is so stacked, why the underrepresentation in the rankings?

They are no Gonzaga, about the only exception to the rule

[GannonFan]

They are no Gonzaga, about the only exception to the rule

And as good as Gonzaga has been (and believe me, I'm a huge Zags fan) they've only made the Elite Eight once. No final fours, and not even a lot of chances to get there. The National Title in college basketball is the sole province of the BCS conferences - just like in football. And that ain't changing anytime soon.

[AppGuy04]

And as good as Gonzaga has been (and believe me, I'm a huge Zags fan) they've only made the Elite Eight once. No final fours, and not even a lot of chances to get there. The National Title in college basketball is the sole province of the BCS conferences - just like in football. And that ain't changing anytime soon.

thats kind of my point, even the exception can't make it that far

like people talking about Louisville going undefeated this year and giving USC a run for their money, I just laughed xlolx

[AppGuy04]

Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina will always be Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina. However, the MAJORITY of the Div. I basketball talent pool has been diluted with talent going to the NBA out of high school or leaving early. This trend is not going to slow. This leaves open the door for other schools to recruit top notch talent. That is what has allowed Bucknell, Gonzaga, Utah, etc. to make some serious moves in the last few years. That could happen with the CIAA as well, if they all moved up AT ONCE. Again, as stated before, its not going to happen, but a guy can dream.

the age limit will make those power basketball schools better, for one year atleast

[GannonFan]

Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina will always be Kansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina. However, the MAJORITY of the Div. I basketball talent pool has been diluted with talent going to the NBA out of high school or leaving early. This trend is not going to slow. This leaves open the door for other schools to recruit top notch talent. That is what has allowed Bucknell, Gonzaga, Utah, etc. to make some serious moves in the last few years. That could happen with the CIAA as well, if they all moved up AT ONCE. Again, as stated before, its not going to happen, but a guy can dream.

I don't doubt that they could occassionally make some noise (like Bucknell, win a first round NCAA game and have a handful of upsets during a year) but that's hardly earth-shattering when it comes to NCAA hoops - there are always some upsets. But despite people talking about the mid majors getting closer to the power conferences, you still never see them make the big leap and get to the Final Four (and that's still two wins away from a championship). What would hurt these teams, like it has others, is that it is very difficult just to stay at the top of the mid majors let alone all of college basketball. Tulsa had a great run in the late 90's and early 00's, but then they lost their coach to eventually Kentucky and they're an afterthought now. Bucknell is good right now but they lose a ton next year and it may be a few years before people even know that Bucknell has a team again. Vermont was great last year but with the loss of their best players and coaches, they're an also ran in the America East.

Gonzaga has been the exception (at least as far as staying competitive, if not actually making the Final Four) because of 3 reasons (IMO): Coaching - Mark Few is a great coach and more importantly, he's stayed at Gonzaga. He could've taken almost any job anywhere, but he stays in Spokane. Geography - let's face it, the Pacific Northwest has never been associated with basketball prominence. Gonzaga therefore doesn't need to compete with a bunch of big programs (they've won 7 of 8 against Pac10 foe Washington for instance) and therefore gets a lot of press and attention. Repeated NCAA success - mid majors are notorious for winning an NCAA game one year and then not even making the tournament the next. No one really rememebers that Toledo made a run to the Elite Eight 2 or 3 years ago because Toledo stunk after that. It's tough to make a name for yourself when success, even small success, is so fleeting. Gonzaga gets in every year, gets a good seed, and wins a few games. Not as many as I would like, but it's better than nothing.

The CIAA, again IMO, would have difficulty in that they would need to have the great coaches stay put (hard to convince a guy not to take a hefty pay raise elsewhere), they would be absolutely eclipsed by the ACC and lesser so by the SEC (not to mention competing for press time with the CAA, Southern, MEAC,and Big South, which are also mids in the general area), and they are a fairly competitive league so it'd be unlikely to see a Gonzaga-like decade long dominance of the conference that would let a team be able to get multi victories in the NCAA's over several years.

While it may leave a bad taste in people's mouths, the BCS (the conferences that primarily make up the BCS), like it does in college football, dominates the landscape in college basketball as well.

[AppGuy04]

Not really. The age limit is 19, therefore the majority of those leaving at the end of their freshman year will still leave at the end of their freshman year.

right, but no more Kobes or KGs, atleast we get to see what those type guys can do, would Kwame Brown still have been a flop if he played in college

could hurt some guys, could help others, catch my drift?

also, don't you think those players that would want to leave would want to go to a "high profile" team(ie UNC, Duke, Kentucky, etc) to get that TV exposure and exposure to scouts

[Bulldog87]

No racism meant here but I'll give this one a shot. In the old days there was a saying "White is right,Black step back." These days a lot of Blacks have adopted this mentality when it comes to attending schools and playing sports. Example, I know plenty folks around here that parents,grandparents,etc attending HBCU's and some that played sports there that currently wouldn't entertain the idea of sending their kids to thier own Alma Mater to play ball. They never use education as the reason for shunning their school. It's always the "My kid will have a better chance of making the pros." They know the academic value is still strong at most HBCU's but somehow they feel that playing ball at a "PWC." is an automatic ticket to pro ball. It also gives some of these otherwise "Blacker than thou." folks "Status." if their kid attends a PWC. Nothing against CCU but I'll use them as an example of this concept. There's an SCSU alum that has a son that was a prominent HS player here in SC. The Dad played ball at STATE and went on to the pros but this guy has had 2 "Blue chip." kids that he sent elsewhere including one now at CCU. A neibhor of minethat deems that I'm not "Black enough because I listen to music ranging from Marvin Gaye to Aerosmith and not "Gangsta Rap." about died when his daughter told me the other night that she attended the SCSU vs CCU game with her cousin that attends CCU and the SCSU HC and she's definetely going to SCSU. Dad's response was "There's no way that I'm going to let my kid attend a HBCU,she's going to a "White school were she'll be able to get drafted into the WNBA." All I could do is crack another Crab and grab another Brew. This is common these days and this attitude makes it harder than most posters here know for HBCU's to get "Blue chippers." at any level.

[Panther88]

No racism meant here but I'll give this one a shot. In the old days there was a saying "White is right,Black step back." These days a lot of Blacks have adopted this mentality when it comes to attending schools and playing sports. Example, I know plenty folks around here that parents,grandparents,etc attending HBCU's and some that played sports there that currently wouldn't entertain the idea of sending their kids to thier own Alma Mater to play ball. They never use education as the reason for shunning their school. It's always the "My kid will have a better chance of making the pros." They know the academic value is still strong at most HBCU's but somehow they feel that playing ball at a "PWC." is an automatic ticket to pro ball. It also gives some of these otherwise "Blacker than thou." folks "Status." if their kid attends a PWC. Nothing against CCU but I'll use them as an example of this concept. There's an SCSU alum that has a son that was a prominent HS player here in SC. The Dad played ball at STATE and went on to the pros but this guy has had 2 "Blue chip." kids that he sent elsewhere including one now at CCU. A neibhor of minethat deems that I'm not "Black enough because I listen to music ranging from Marvin Gaye to Aerosmith and not "Gangsta Rap." about died when his daughter told me the other night that she attended the SCSU vs CCU game with her cousin that attends CCU and the SCSU HC and she's definetely going to SCSU. Dad's response was "There's no way that I'm going to let my kid attend a HBCU,she's going to a "White school were she'll be able to get drafted into the WNBA." All I could do is crack another Crab and grab another Brew. This is common these days and this attitude makes it harder than most posters here know for HBCU's to get "Blue chippers." at any level.

Yessir. Pretty well sums it up.