No more 'home' playoff games for UD [Archive]

ChickenMan

March 26th, 2009, 05:57 AM

Looks like no more playoff games in the Tub if our new Gov's plan to bring 'sports' betting to Delaware is approved.

NCAA: Betting equals no playoffs

Markell calls association's ban on hosting postseason sporting events 'retaliatory'

By GINGER GIBSON and KEVIN TRESOLINI • The News Journal • March 26, 2009

That would mean no more home playoff games for the University of Delaware, including its football squad, which has played 22 such games since 1973. Delaware State University and Wesley College officials also say the policy would have a great impact on them.

"It would be tragic" if the Blue Hens could not play NCAA postseason games at home, Delaware football coach K.C. Keeler said Wednesday after a spring practice session.

NCAA officials took less than a week to arrive in Dover, where they held a series of closed-door meetings with state officials this week. Lobbying against Markell's plan is expected to be intense, with racinos and the National Football League joining the NCAA in opposition.

Upon hearing about the meetings, a News Journal reporter called the NCAA, which confirmed its intention to prohibit playoffs in the state.

NCAA spokeswoman Stacey Osburn said by her organization's rules, the prohibition would apply to all postseason games that are part of an official NCAA tournament.

Markell called the NCAA's reaction to Delaware's sports betting proposal "retaliatory and inconsistent." He pointed to the college football bowl game held in Las Vegas every year as proof.

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090326/NEWS02/903260362&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

DFW HOYA

March 26th, 2009, 06:24 AM

Markell called the NCAA's reaction to Delaware's sports betting proposal "retaliatory and inconsistent." He pointed to the college football bowl game held in Las Vegas every year as proof.

Bad analogy from Markell. The Las Vegas Bowl is not an NCAA event that a playoff game is.

bluehenbillk

March 26th, 2009, 06:32 AM

Retitle the thread "UD to Move to FBS".

If the NCAA plays that card, UD will move up to FBS in a heartbeat & will do so with a higher % of fans supporting the notion than ever before.

93henfan

March 26th, 2009, 06:53 AM

Retitle the thread "UD to Move to FBS".

If the NCAA plays that card, UD will move up to FBS in a heartbeat & will do so with a higher % of fans supporting the notion than ever before.

Agreed. The state needs revenue (and slimmer state government) more than UD needs home playoff games in I-AA/FCS, rightly or wrongly.

To not play one of the most unique cards (pun not intended) the state of Delaware has up it's sleeve is a huge opportunity lost. The surrounding states (PA and MD) saw the revenue Delaware was pulling in from their residents and countered with slots of their own, so now Delaware must up the ante (ok, I admit I meant the pun this time) and bring the out-of-staters' cha-ching back in to the state via sports gambling and possibly blackjack and table games.

I think the solution is a stipulation that there will be no legalized betting on college sports in Delaware. That would still make for lucrative NFL betting and allow all the Delaware college teams to keep their NCAA tournament games.

bluehenbillk

March 26th, 2009, 06:56 AM

93henfan

March 26th, 2009, 07:04 AM

The state of New Jersey has already filed a federal lawsuit in repsonse to Delaware's governors announcement wanting to legalize sports betting in the other 46 states where it is currently not allowed. Would this move all playoff games to Puerto Rico???

I smell FBS, do you smell FBS? I smell FBS.

Hah! NJ is still having sour grapes over the federal court ruling on the LNG plant they proposed across the river from Claymont where Delaware totally pwned them with the c-block!

So Jersey wants to try to stop Delaware from exercise it's rights under existing laws? What they're really worried about is Delaware getting table gaming and making AC completely irrelevant. People could fly in to Philly, drive half the distance to Wilmington and play all the same games in Caesars Palace Wilmington, once it's built, and play the book that AC can't offer. Priceless. Game, set, match for DE over AC. And don't give me that AC is on the beach. It's a damn dump, even worse than Wilmington.

Ivytalk

March 26th, 2009, 07:36 AM

Agreed. The state needs revenue (and slimmer state government) more than UD needs home playoff games in I-AA/FCS, rightly or wrongly.

To not play one of the most unique cards (pun not intended) the state of Delaware has up it's sleeve is a huge opportunity lost. The surrounding states (PA and MD) saw the revenue Delaware was pulling in from their residents and countered with slots of their own, so now Delaware must up the ante (ok, I admit I meant the pun this time) and bring the out-of-staters' cha-ching back in to the state via sports gambling and possibly blackjack and table games.

I think the solution is a stipulation that there will be no legalized betting on college sports in Delaware. That would still make for lucrative NFL betting and allow all the Delaware college teams to keep their NCAA tournament games.

I have a problem with the whole sports betting thing. The State is trying to balance the budget on the backs of problem gambling. Delaware is lucky that it was "grandfathered" out of a sports betting ban, but its last effort at sports betting in the 70s was a dismal failure. One of the problems is that the state constitution limits permissible types of sports betting to those based on some type of "lottery." The proponents of the measure are doing cartwheels trying to legitimize the kinds of betting that are commonplace in Vegas, and even the DE Supreme Court has been asked to weigh in.

The economy is battering the "racinos" now. People have less money to blow on slots, and there's absolutely no reason to expect folks to flock to Wilmington to bet on football. Approval by the General Assembly is by no means a sure thing. That said, if the worst happens (sports betting approved; playoff ban imposed), some mid-major FBS conference would probably take the Hens.xpeacex

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 07:54 AM

Retitle the thread "UD to Move to FBS".

If the NCAA plays that card, UD will move up to FBS in a heartbeat & will do so with a higher % of fans supporting the notion than ever before.
xeyebrowx Overreaction there bk IMO. This cleary would suck for UD football, but with no home in I-A, how would that move be good? What if the NCAA allowed the Hens to play playoff games in Philly? xeyebrowx

mcveyrl

March 26th, 2009, 08:04 AM

xeyebrowx Overreaction there bk IMO. This cleary would suck for UD football, but with no home in I-A, how would that move be good? What if the NCAA allowed the Hens to play playoff games in Philly? xeyebrowx

Yea, this definitely stinks, but I don't know if it means a move to FBS. This would affect, what, three games a year at most. If you're not a seed, then it only affects one game (maybe more if seeds lose). Then again, this is a fan whose team hosted its first playoff game in years, so I speak from a relatively inexperienced position.

Interesting idea there, Hen. You guys already have a home game there every other year, what's a couple more in the playoffs. xsmiley_wix You would probably want The Linc, though.

AshevilleApp2

March 26th, 2009, 08:08 AM

Is UD seriously looking at moving up to FBS anyway?

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 08:15 AM

Interesting idea there, Hen. You guys already have a home game there every other year, what's a couple more in the playoffs. xsmiley_wix You would probably want The Linc, though.
Franklin Field would be fine too. xpeacex

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 08:15 AM

Is UD seriously looking at moving up to FBS anyway?
No.

93henfan

March 26th, 2009, 08:20 AM

Franklin Field would be fine too. xpeacex

Yeah, the Eagles actually won a championship while playing there, on the field no less!

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 08:21 AM

Yeah, the Eagles actually won a championship while playing there, on the field no less!
I just don't think The Linc is a real possibility. Too expensive and that late in the season I doubt they want extra games on the field. I love going to FF anyway. xthumbsupx

State Line Liquors

March 26th, 2009, 08:23 AM

xeyebrowx Overreaction there bk IMO. This cleary would suck for UD football, but with no home in I-A, how would that move be good? What if the NCAA allowed the Hens to play playoff games in Philly? xeyebrowx

How would playing a 'home' playoff game in Philly be a positive? Nothing in Philly would even come close to home games at Delaware Stadium. Move a home game 50 minutes away from campus? Tailgate in a parking garage near Franklin Field? Tailgate in front of the Wachovia Center?

There are 2 reasons to stay at the 1AA level: 1)What conference would we affiliate with in FBS? & 2) The playoffs are great!

Take away the home playoff games we get every couple of years and you take away the bread that feeds the hungry crowds inside the coliseum. The regular season is fine, but nothing matches the win or go home atmosphere at our place.

State Line Liquors

March 26th, 2009, 08:25 AM

Is UD seriously looking at moving up to FBS anyway?

We haven't been...I think this would have a serious impact.

henfan

March 26th, 2009, 08:41 AM

I think there's definitely reason for the State of DE and DE colleges to challenge the NCAA here (not that I'm a supporter of sports betting.)

An apt analogy is the State of SC where the NCAA has a post-season ban related to the Confederate flag issue. The NCAA makes exceptions to the ban for post-season regionals awarded on merit, such as football and baseball. Furman, Wofford and SC State are not prohibited from hosting FCS playoff games, for example. Why would the NCAA not permit UD or DSU the same sort of leeway for post-season regionals awarded on merit?

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 08:42 AM

The NCAA could end up losing this one. Sports betting is just going to continue to increase around the country, and it's certainly an odd thing saying that UD, DSU, and Wesley (a DIII school of all things) need to be punished if the state decides to exercise its right and allows sports gambling. It's even odder to punish these schools as the bill as proposed would not allow betting on any Delaware teams, not that you can really even place bets on FCS or DIII teams anyway.

Certainly odd too since there is no NCAA position, as per the Nevada schools, that prohibits Nevada from hosting NCAA events (Nevada has hosted NCAA sanctioned events in the past 5 years as well).

While it's not big money for UD, and it pales in comparison to the money the state can get from sports gambling, the NCAA could find itself in court if they proceed in this direction. And like I said, the possibility that more and more states move to allowing sports gambling, and especially if it passes on the federal level, the NCAA could find itself with very little options of where to have championships.

I echo another poster, I actually think gambling is a poor way to raise revenue for a state or city, and it preys on problem gamblers and the poor, people who are the least able to play, but it's a reality that isn't going away.

bluehenbillk

March 26th, 2009, 08:42 AM

There are 2 reasons to stay at the 1AA level: 1)What conference would we affiliate with in FBS? & 2) The playoffs are great!
Take away the home playoff games we get every couple of years and you take away the bread that feeds the hungry crowds inside the coliseum. The regular season is fine, but nothing matches the win or go home atmosphere at our place.

See you answer the question right there. You guys can call it an over-reaction fine. But, envision the scenario of this playing out & wait until you see the reaction of a 10-1 UD team playing on the road throughout the playoffs. Yep, that'll happen one time & one time only. I could see Harker making the move down the road before this news, so this only expedited things IMO, the only question will be where to go, but standing still will no longer be an option, sorry 89.

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 08:48 AM

I kind of agree with BHBK here. Harker has already said that he wants to really promote and make more visible the entire University. And UD is clearly capable, and has been for decades, of making the jump to FBS. If the NCAA wants to be petty (seriously, punishing the school and student athletes at DIII Wesley is patently absurd), then they can lose a pretty good money maker in UD. UD would certainly have challenges going forward if we move to FBS, but there's been plenty of groundwork put into play both by UD and their peers to move if need be. I don't think UD wants to do it, and they've been a champion of the cause of I-AA and FCS football since it started, but if the NCAA forces its hand to fight a losing cause, then so be it.

Lehigh Football Nation

March 26th, 2009, 09:06 AM

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 09:09 AM

Gambling on college sports is no way to balance a state budget.
Gambling period is no way to balance a state budget. I can't tell you how opposed I was to slots in Maryland. Who plays slots? Old people. Poor people. People on fixed incomes. People with problems... is this who we really want to target to raise money? xsmhx

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 09:12 AM

How would playing a 'home' playoff game in Philly be a positive? Nothing in Philly would even come close to home games at Delaware Stadium. Move a home game 50 minutes away from campus? Tailgate in a parking garage near Franklin Field? Tailgate in front of the Wachovia Center?

There are 2 reasons to stay at the 1AA level: 1)What conference would we affiliate with in FBS? & 2) The playoffs are great!

Take away the home playoff games we get every couple of years and you take away the bread that feeds the hungry crowds inside the coliseum. The regular season is fine, but nothing matches the win or go home atmosphere at our place.
Who said it was a positive? I'm just looking for any alternative IF this comes to pass. I'd take FF game over a road game at who know's where any day. xpeacex

I think you are wrong about the playoffs. 22,000 average for regular season vs 14-17k for playoffs. In years in which the Hens don't make the playoffs, there are still close to 22,000 all the way through the end of the season. That said, I do love going to home playoff games.

andy7171

March 26th, 2009, 09:18 AM

Gambling period is no way to balance a state budget. I can't tell you how opposed I was to slots in Maryland. Who plays slots? Old people. Poor people. People on fixed incomes. People with problems... is this who we really want to target to raise money? xsmhx

The way the MOB (Miller, O'Malley, Bush) have set up slots here in Maryland is going to be a complete failure. No smoking, no drinking, nothing but a room full of slot machine set so tight, no one will come. Idiots.

AshevilleApp2

March 26th, 2009, 09:19 AM

ValleyChamp

March 26th, 2009, 09:20 AM

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KU_qLvOMe_s/SZb7N3Yi8XI/AAAAAAAAAas/d4B83yxkYfo/s400/simpsons_nelson

93henfan

March 26th, 2009, 09:22 AM

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KU_qLvOMe_s/SZb7N3Yi8XI/AAAAAAAAAas/d4B83yxkYfo/s400/simpsons_nelson

Well in the case of UNI, we usually do well at home or on the road.

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 09:25 AM

Gambling on college sports is no way to balance a state budget. I think that's my biggest problem with this whole thing. It's bad enough that Bethlehem allowed the Sands to set up shop on the old steel mill property - this would be much worse. And you know the $55 million number bandied about would hardly be the true amount of revenue - it would probably be a lot less.

Having said that, having sports gambling in Delaware will hardly contribute to the deliquency of UD, DSU, Wesley and other college athletes. Betting on UD/DSU/D-III sports is not only miniscule, it's also a sign of sickness. That's on top of all the online options for gambling that are available to college students with a will and a way - witness the Lehigh undergrad a few years ago who got in such poker debt he tried to rob a bank. Gambling needs to be regulated.

It's hard to fault the NCAA for taking a hard line against gambling. Point the finger of hypocrisy at them all you want - but UD folks should probably be talking to their local legislators, begging them to not pimp out the state to the bookies. Getting angry at the NCAA is the wrong outlet for the outrage.

Certainly don't disagree with the concept that sports gambling is a sound decision to make in terms of raising revenue - as 89 says, it's a tax on old and poor people. But it is going to be reality and it is a lot more money than the state can raise from home UD playoff games.

The NCAA is at fault for not being consistent in their stand (see holding NCAA sanctioned events in Nevada) and for it's odd stance of using punishment of the very student athletes they are supposed to be serving as a way to sway things student athletes have nothing to do with. Even if the state enacts sports gambling, you still can't bet on UD, DSU, Wesley, Wimington College, Del Tech, or Goldey-Beacom (yup, that's all the schools affected) anyway - not as if there was even a market to bet on them anyway. The NCAA has a long history of punshing student athletes despite those athletes not doing anything wrong (transfer rules, impact of coaches leaving, penalties against a school for infractions committed by others, etc). Just add another tick to that column for the NCAA. xsmhx

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 09:28 AM

The way the MOB (Miller, O'Malley, Bush) have set up slots here in Maryland is going to be a complete failure. No smoking, no drinking, nothing but a room full of slot machine set so tight, no one will come. Idiots.
Good. Not that I want our fine state to go more in debt, but I hope slots are a HUGE dud. F 'em.

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 09:29 AM

Well in the case of UNI, we usually do well at home or on the road.
Yeah, a UNI fan is the last person that should be laughing at this. At least when the Hens beat the Panthers in Newark it wasn't in front of all your fans. You should hope UD stays away from Cedar Falls. :p

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 09:31 AM

it's odd stance of using punishment of the very student athletes they are supposed to be serving as a way to sway things student athletes have nothing to do with.
Good point. :(

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 09:39 AM

Well in the case of UNI, we usually do well at home or on the road.

Seriously, if we could play all our games either against UNI or at UNI, I'd be in favor of that. Nothing says a trip to Chatty like getting to see UNI in the playoffs!!! xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

aust42

March 26th, 2009, 10:09 AM

The whole thing is so absurd I refuse to believe the NCAA could do this do Delaware.

blukeys

March 26th, 2009, 11:45 AM

The whole thing is so absurd I refuse to believe the NCAA could do this do Delaware.

Yeah, that would be like punishing North Dakota for having the mascot the Sioux while not punishing Florida State for the Seminole mascot. Or punishing South Carolina solely while other states have portions of the Confederate battle banner in their state flags. xrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesx xrolleyesx

mainejeff

March 26th, 2009, 11:51 AM

FINALLY!!! Finally we can get the Hens out of Newark for the playoffs so they can see how the other side lives........xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxx xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx

mainejeff

March 26th, 2009, 11:53 AM

The whole thing is so absurd I refuse to believe the NCAA could do this do Delaware.

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

UD has always prided itself in being a "private" school.......so why should the state care?

xwhistlexxwhistlexxwhistlex

ValleyChamp

March 26th, 2009, 12:05 PM

Well in the case of UNI, we usually do well at home or on the road.

ha. I knew that was coming right as I was posting that, but I did it anyway.xcoolx

henfan

March 26th, 2009, 12:26 PM

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

UD has always prided itself in being a "private" school.......so why should the state care?

xwhistlexxwhistlexxwhistlex

Because the reality is that UD is no more private than UMaine. The governor has a seat on the Board of Trustees, as do many who run the economic engine in the state. Several in the statehouse are UD FB season ticket holders. The State cares plenty.

henfan

March 26th, 2009, 12:27 PM

FINALLY!!! Finally we can get the Hens out of Newark for the playoffs so they can see how the other side lives........xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxx xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx

Of course, 2 of the last 3 non-championship FB playoff games in which UD participated were on the road. In their I-AA/FCS history, the Hens have also played 13 playoff games on the road and 16 at home.xreadx

I'd say UD is well aware of how "the other half lives".

89Hen

March 26th, 2009, 12:43 PM

FINALLY!!! Finally we can get the Hens out of Newark for the playoffs so they can see how the other side lives........xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxx xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx
To really do that you'd have to take all the concrete down in the Tub and only let 4,000 show up to the game. xwhistlex

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 01:25 PM

FINALLY!!! Finally we can get the Hens out of Newark for the playoffs so they can see how the other side lives........xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxx xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx

Hey, did you just copy and paste your post from right before the quarterfinals in '07 when UD had to travel out to the UNIDome? Sounds incredibly familiar. xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx:p

Syntax Error

March 26th, 2009, 02:40 PM

I smell FBS, do you smell FBS? I smell FBS.Then you could finally be in bed with your beloved BCS! xlolx
There are 2 reasons to stay at the 1AA level: 1)What conference would we affiliate with in FBS?There never has been a "1AA" and UD plays in the FCS, not "1A". :p
An apt analogy is the State of SC where the NCAA has a post-season ban related to the Confederate flag issue.Delaware does not have a Confederate flag issue. xcoffeex
... there is no NCAA position, as per the Nevada schools, that prohibits Nevada from hosting NCAA events (Nevada has hosted NCAA sanctioned events in the past 5 years as well).Like what NCAA events? We have already been here before GF, bowl games are not NCAA championships (see the rulebook).
I actually think gambling is a poor way to raise revenue for a state or city, and it preys on problem gamblers and the poor, people who are the least able to play(in reply to LFN and also said by 89H) That part you got right and that is why the NCAA will prevail.

Just say no to gambling. xtwocentsx

MplsBison

March 26th, 2009, 02:50 PM

How about state lottery? AKA, the idiot tax

Seriously though..I hope Delaware goes forward with this and then sues the NCAA and the court rules in favor of Delaware.

I hate the NCAA's ********* rules sometimes.

henfan

March 26th, 2009, 02:58 PM

Delaware does not have a Confederate flag issue.

You've never been to that part of the state below the Chesapeake & Delaware Canal, have you?xlolx

Seriously though, the NCAA has shown some flexibilty in allowing post-season games in SC, where it imposes a ban. As I understand it, the NCAA offered a waiver to allow SC schools to host regional tourament events that are based on merit so as not to punish student-athletes for actions taken by the State of SC. Why should student-athletes in DE not be afforded similar consideration if the State of DE proceeds with its dumb idea?

Retro

March 26th, 2009, 03:15 PM

First, i don't necessarily agree that this will solve any state's financial problems.. Lack of real management and typical corruption usually cause that....

This is really no big deal regardless of the side your on.. I've been an advocate of Sports betting to be allowed in the actual gaming casino's here in Louisiana for some time.. Reason: Your only missing out on all the underground/bookie/bar betting that has been going on for decades!

That being said, Delaware and any other state and the NCAA just have to lay down some ground rules.. For example: Betting on pro sports only! That's pretty easy, Or if they are adement about having college sports betting, then not allow any bets involving delaware sports teams.....

My only gripe againest sports betting is allowing it for College sports, because it does open the obvious likelyhood of point shaving, throwing games, etc. Mainly because of the need and greed for some students and/or coaches who are so easily tempted by instant riches... Pro sports doesn't have that issue for the most part because they all get paid well even as a minimum salary player..

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 03:18 PM

We have already been here before GF, bowl games are not NCAA championships (see the rulebook).(

I don't believe I've ever said that bowl games are run by the NCAA - of course they aren't.

The News Journal lists these specific NCAA run events as being operated in Nevada

...In Nevada, where sports betting is legal, Andy Grossman, director of media relations at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, said that UNLV "is not aware of any written or stated NCAA policies that preclude NCAA championship events from being held in the state of Nevada." He added that "it's been a while" since UNLV has hosted an NCAA championship event, even though it is "hopeful" of doing so.

Rhonda Lundin, assistant athletic director for media services at the University of Nevada, in Reno, also said she's not aware of any NCAA ban on that school hosting events.

The school has regularly applied to be a host site for various NCAA championships, and has hosted two skiing events, the 2004 NCAA championships and the 2009 West regionals....

Granted, skiing isn't football, but that wasn't the discussion. They are a legit NCAA event, run by the NCAA, as recently as this year. Kind of odd, don't you think, for the NCAA, in the same year mind you, to say that one state can't hold an NCAA sponsored championship event because of sports gambling, yet allow another state to host an event, in spite of their long history of sports gambling? That, coupled with no actual written policy of such a position, leaves the NCAA a little exposed here.

93henfan

March 26th, 2009, 05:04 PM

I just watched the local PBS news broadcast, WHYY Channel 12's Delaware Tonight lead story on this issue and gleaned two very important points that answer questions posed earlier in this thread:

#1. WHYY spoke to an NCAA official. The NCAA will not drop the postseason ban in Delaware even if Delaware drops college betting from its proposed sports book. If there is any sports betting at all, the ban will be enacted.

#2. The NCAA clarified the issue regarding its allowing an NCAA-sponsored postseason skiiing tournament in Nevada in 2004. They stated that in 2004, the ban only applied to NCAA basketball, but since then the NCAA has expanded the ban to NCAA-sanctioned postseason tournaments in all sports at all levels in any state that allows sports betting.

So there you have it. Unless Gov Markell drops his sports betting/lottery proposal altogether (highly unlikely) or Delaware successfully forces the NCAA to pull back, there will never be another FCS/D-II/D-III football postseason game played in Delaware again. I can give more info from the report if anyone desires, but those were the two humdingers.

Henny

March 26th, 2009, 05:08 PM

I'm not much of a gambler, and I prefer sports betting not be in my state. That being said, I wish the NCAA all the luck in the world in keeping playoff games out of Delaware Stadium. If Delaware schools want to take this fight all the way than the NCAA may want to drop it. Some Blue Hen fans have huge pull in D.C. these days.;)

SoCon48

March 26th, 2009, 05:51 PM

Not taking up for the NCAA, but personally, I wish Delaware would, as much as practical, leave gambling out of college sports.
Lotteries and horse racing are good enough formats for legal gambling. Besides the short distance to Atlantic City should suffice for addicted gamblers assuming their bookies don't get to them first.xlolx
Just my opinion.

BTW, Delaware Park is/was one of the best tracks around.

SoCon48

March 26th, 2009, 05:55 PM

JayJ79

March 26th, 2009, 06:21 PM

Kudos to tne NCAA on this.
I hope they stick to their guns on this issue.

Syntax Error

March 26th, 2009, 06:33 PM

Granted, skiing isn't football, but that wasn't the discussion. They are a legit NCAA event, run by the NCAA, as recently as this year. Kind of odd, don't you think, for the NCAA, in the same year mind you, to say that one state can't hold an NCAA sponsored championship event because of sports gambling, yet allow another state to host an event, in spite of their long history of sports gambling?Yes, odd. Partially answered here:
I just watched the local PBS news broadcast, WHYY Channel 12's Delaware Tonight lead story on this issue and gleaned two very important points that answer questions posed earlier in this thread:

#1. WHYY spoke to an NCAA official. The NCAA will not drop the postseason ban in Delaware even if Delaware drops college betting from its proposed sports book. If there is any sports betting at all, the ban will be enacted.

#2. The NCAA clarified the issue regarding its allowing an NCAA-sponsored postseason skiiing tournament in Nevada in 2004. They stated that in 2004, the ban only applied to NCAA basketball, but since then the NCAA has expanded the ban to NCAA-sanctioned postseason tournaments in all sports at all levels in any state that allows sports betting.

JayJ79

March 26th, 2009, 06:33 PM

So there you have it. Unless Gov Markell drops his sports betting/lottery proposal altogether (highly unlikely) or Delaware successfully forces the NCAA to pull back, there will never be another FCS/D-II/D-III football postseason game played in Delaware again.

Does Delaware host alot of D2 events?

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 08:36 PM

#2. The NCAA clarified the issue regarding its allowing an NCAA-sponsored postseason skiiing tournament in Nevada in 2004. They stated that in 2004, the ban only applied to NCAA basketball, but since then the NCAA has expanded the ban to NCAA-sanctioned postseason tournaments in all sports at all levels in any state that allows sports betting.

Yes, odd. Partially answered here:

Even odder when you consider that if the NCAA did clarify the issue after sponsoring a championship in Nevada in 2004, why they then, this year, 2009, did the NCAA again host an NCAA sanctioned championship even in Nevada?

The NCAA can certainly make whatever policy they want, and again, I'm personally against gambling as a societal rule of thumb, but the NCAA is going to have problems enforcing a policy, especially if challenged in court, if they have a track record of not applying a policy evenly, which they certainly have here.

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 08:37 PM

Does Delaware host alot of D2 events?

I don't think there's a DII school in Delaware - just DI for most sports, FCS for football, and DIII in all sports by a handful of schools. Wesley's been one of the better DIII schools in the nation these last few years and have hosted several football playoff games.

JayJ79

March 26th, 2009, 08:40 PM

I don't think there's a DII school in Delaware - just DI for most sports, FCS for football, and DIII in all sports by a handful of schools. Wesley's been one of the better DIII schools in the nation these last few years and have hosted several football playoff games.

no, there isn't any D2 schools in Delaware. which is why I made the smartarse comment.

GannonFan

March 26th, 2009, 08:41 PM

no, there isn't any D2 schools in Delaware. which is why I made the smartarse comment.

My bad, I thought you were just making fun of DSU!!!! xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

henfan

March 26th, 2009, 10:01 PM

no, there isn't any D2 schools in Delaware. which is why I made the smartarse comment.

One of UD's long range goals is to again host an NCAA LAX tournament, which would mean D-II schools could be playing in the state.

aust42

March 26th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Surely Vice President Delaware game attending Alum Biden can call the NCAA rules enforcer and talk "reason". Don't ya think? Use your Political Power!

blukeys

March 26th, 2009, 10:30 PM

The legislation for sports betting was introduced and passed the House Of Representatives in Delaware a year ago. The NCAA at that time was a no show at Legislative Hall when this was discussed and debated. One wonders, if this was such a big issue for the NCAA, why the absence???xrolleyesx

There was a considerable presence by the NFL in this debate. The NFL opposed sports betting in Delaware saying that such a measure would sully the reputation of the NFL

There was considerable snickering by those in attendance that the NFL who had sponsored in the past TV shows with picks with points by Jimmy the Greek and other gambling pros could have the audacity to claim that sports betting in the 2nd smallest state in the union could have any impact on the "reputation" of the NFL (Yes Delaware was going to sully the name of the Michael Vick league.xrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesx)

The NFL rep was totally embarassed by the proponents of sports betting and rightfully so. To make the case that Delaware having sports betting would endanger the NFL when Las Vegas makes a living off of the NFL was ludicrous on its face but that was the case they attempted to make.

The audio of these debates are available (They are public records). Especially funny is the questioning of Rep. Nancy Wagner about betting on fantasy teams and the NFL's position on this.

At any rate it is apparent to me that the NCAA has decided to do the dirty work for the NFL since the NFL could not get it done. So much for the high mindedness of the NCAA.

Husky Alum

March 27th, 2009, 06:09 AM

Now that the NIT is owned by the NCAA, wouldn't this preclude UD from theoretically not being able to host an NIT game - or a Women's Hoops First and Second Round, for that matter?

UD has bigger problems in men's hoops - like escaping Pillow Fight Friday in Richmond, but this is another potential impact on the UD athletic department.

93henfan

March 27th, 2009, 06:31 AM

Does Delaware host alot of D2 events?

I don't think there's a DII school in Delaware...

no, there isn't any D2 schools in Delaware. which is why I made the smartarse comment.

Delaware has two NCAA D-II schools, Wilmington University and Goldey Beacom College. http://www.caccathletics.org/information/About_the_CACC

93henfan

March 27th, 2009, 06:57 AM

89Hen

March 27th, 2009, 07:54 AM

#1. WHYY spoke to an NCAA official. The NCAA will not drop the postseason ban in Delaware even if Delaware drops college betting from its proposed sports book. If there is any sports betting at all, the ban will be enacted.
That's complete BS. xnonono2x

MplsBison

March 27th, 2009, 08:30 AM

Screw em.

Push forward and sue the NCAA. They can't just make up whatever rules they want and avoid court.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 09:05 AM

Interesting - apparently the state of Montana, in 2008, started a sports lottery. It's basically a way to bet on Fantasy Football and Fantasy NASCAR, but it's still, technically, sports gambling that is state sponsored. One wonders if the NCAA is going to try to play hardball on this issue in Delaware, are they going to have to turn around and do the same thing in Montana.

Imagine an FCS world where both Delaware and Montana are banned from hosting NCAA playoff games.

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090327/NEWS02/903270334/-1/updates

The tangled web the NCAA is weaving here is going to be tough to defend.

jstate83

March 27th, 2009, 09:09 AM

This is just plain stupid.
Why on Earth would the NCAA do this when nobody even put's out a betting line on FCS sport's(football).xsmhx

If they do this, they need to ban any bowl game for FBS in a state that has any kind of lottery or betting.
BYE BYE Sugar Bowl and the majority of other's if they want to be fair. xsmhx

93henfan

March 27th, 2009, 09:10 AM

I love the Montana angle that has now been brought into this. xlolx

This is going to be fun to watch!

The NCAA spokeswoman that is quoted in the article GF just linked is obviously clueless.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 09:12 AM

jstate83

March 27th, 2009, 09:15 AM

Heck, maybe they'll go after the Bayou Classic next!!! xlolxxlolxxsmhx

That's what I'm saying.
Who's to say what school's/states will be targeted next if they do this to UD.
How in he!! can you single out one state and team when other states have been having Bowl games and Bowl Classic's for decades with betting and lotteries.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 09:20 AM

That's what I'm saying.
Who's to say what school's/states will be targeted next if they do this to UD.
How in he!! can you single out one state and team when other states have been having Bowl games and Bowl Classic's for decades.

And frankly the NCAA's going to be swamped when the Federal Law is changed and they allow sports gambling everywhere. New Jersey has already said they are going to go for sports gambling (and overturning existing law) if Delaware gets sports gambling.

I don't agree with sports gambling as a way to raise revenue, and I think it unfairly targets the old and the poor, two groups that aren't in the best position to be gambling in the first place, but to deny that it is going to happen is silly. And to target schools and student athletes for punishment when neither group has anything to do with the legislation is just the NCAA missing the mark again. Frankly, the NCAA would be better spending their time deciding how they are going to help make sure their student athletes don't get caught up in the gambling that's going to be happening.

Agent Smith from the "Matrix" had a great line - "Do you hear that? It's the sound of inevitability".

89Hen

March 27th, 2009, 09:22 AM

Imagine an FCS world where both Delaware and Montana are banned from hosting NCAA playoff games.
That would be friggen great. xlolx Then we just need a couple other big attendance schools knocked out of the playoffs and watch the NCAA bleed money.

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 11:30 AM

Who's to say what school's/states will be targeted next if they do this to UD.
How in he!! can you single out one state and team when other states have been having Bowl games and Bowl Classic's for decades with betting and lotteries.Bowl games and the Bayou Classic are not NCAA Championships and Delaware is not being singled out (same as they were not singled out when a team changed a game on them back in February, they tend to take this "First State" thing a bit far).

93henfan

March 27th, 2009, 11:35 AM

Wrong, SE. If Montana and Nevada both hosted NCAA postseason events in the past year and had sports gambling, then Delaware most certainly is being singled out.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 01:07 PM

Bowl games and the Bayou Classic are not NCAA Championships and Delaware is not being singled out (same as they were not singled out when a team changed a game on them back in February, they tend to take this "First State" thing a bit far).

Wrong, SE. If Montana and Nevada both hosted NCAA postseason events in the past year and had sports gambling, then Delaware most certainly is being singled out.

Come on, SE, I know you take a cynical and opposing side on most anything UD (maybe GPI fallout as the most vocal critics are UD guys? maybe mid-west bias?), but 93henfan is right, how is it not singling Delaware out when Nevada, who has sports gambling, hosted an NCAA Championship, in 2009, and Montana, who also has sports gambling, hosted a playoff game for an NCAA Championship, just 3 months ago?

ChickenMan

March 27th, 2009, 01:12 PM

Come on, SE, I know you take a cynical and opposing side on most anything UD

now why would anyone possibly believe that... :p

henfan

March 27th, 2009, 01:25 PM

And frankly the NCAA's going to be swamped when the Federal Law is changed and they allow sports gambling everywhere...
I don't agree with sports gambling as a way to raise revenue, and I think it unfairly targets the old and the poor, two groups that aren't in the best position to be gambling in the first place, but to deny that it is going to happen is silly. And to target schools and student athletes for punishment when neither group has anything to do with the legislation is just the NCAA missing the mark again. Frankly, the NCAA would be better spending their time deciding how they are going to help make sure their student athletes don't get caught up in the gambling that's going to be happening.

Touche.

On the other side, IMO, the NCAA has the right to deal with symptoms rather than problems. They can impose whatever bans they want to their own proprietary tournaments. However, in the process of employing bans, they had better make absolutely certain that their measures are fairly and evenly applied. Not only do random and hamhanded applications of bans subject them to potential legal action, but it might also have the unintended consequence of driving membership in a direction isn't necessarily favorable to the NCAA.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 01:28 PM

Touche.

On the other side, IMO, the NCAA has the right to deal with symptoms rather than problems. They can impose whatever bans they want to their own proprietary tournaments. However, in the process of employing bans, they had better make absolutely certain that their measures are fairly and evenly applied. Not only do random and hamhanded applications of bans subject them to potential legal action, but it might also have the unintended consequence of driving membership in a direction isn't necessarily favorable to the NCAA.

I agree entirely - the NCAA can do whatever they want, but they need to be consistent. So far, with their track record regarding sports gambling and bans, they are clearly inconsistent.

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 01:42 PM

Come on, SE, I know you take a cynical and opposing side on most anything UD (maybe GPI fallout as the most vocal critics are UD guys? maybe mid-west bias?), but 93henfan is right, how is it not singling Delaware out when Nevada, who has sports gambling, hosted an NCAA Championship, in 2009, and Montana, who also has sports gambling, hosted a playoff game for an NCAA Championship, just 3 months ago?No need to get personal or paranoid GF (and anyone else). No one's out to get you.

Ask the NCAA to interpret their rules on gambling if indeed Nevada and Montana have hosted NCAA Championships under the same rule that would preclude Delaware. I don't think that has been established. I'll try to find out if Montana's lottery? is part of the NCAA rule (I highly doubt it). I do know that rules for the NCAA apply to every member institution and Delaware is not being "singled out." xcoffeex

Maverick

March 27th, 2009, 01:52 PM

"NCAA spokeswoman Stacey Osburn said by her organization's rules, the prohibition would apply to all postseason games that are part of an official NCAA tournament."

A little over a month ago, the University of Nevada hosted the NCAA Skiing Championships West Regional at Mt. Rose between Reno and Lake Tahoe. How is that permissible? It would seem to run contrary to the what the NCAA spokeswoman said. Unless a ski meet is not considered a game there is a problem. I would be very interested to hear the NCAA explanation on this.

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 02:02 PM

Good NCAA article:
http://www.doubleazone.com/2009/03/final_four_betting_ban_is_the.php

Good Montana article:
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2006/03/16/news/local/news02.txt

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 02:03 PM

No need to get personal or paranoid GF (and anyone else). No one's out to get you.

Ask the NCAA to interpret their rules on gambling if indeed Nevada and Montana have hosted NCAA Championships under the same rule that would preclude Delaware. I don't think that has been established. I'll try to find out if Montana's lottery? is part of the NCAA rule (I highly doubt it). I do know that rules for the NCAA apply to every member institution and Delaware is not being "singled out." xcoffeex

Hey, stop starting the personal stuff (the "First State" crack) and it wouldn't be a problem. xpeacex

It's a message board, I'm allowed to expound on something even if I'm not an investigative journalist.

Factually, though, the NCAA permitted part of the NCAA Skiing Championships to be run in Nevada just a few weeks ago, which, when I last checked, was home to Las Vegas and to legalized gambling.

And factually, Montana's "lottery" is not a lottery, per se, but are gambling on sports by means of Fantasy Leagues. Even more so, just by Googling the topic, apparently in Montana it is also now legal to publically bet on the NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament. The article I saw that is here http://www.torontosun.com/sports/othersports/2009/03/23/8857626.html and the quote of importance from there is here:
Montana allows what’s going on illicitly in most other states this month: NCAA basketball tournament pools at bars that register with the state lottery. The state also allows betting on fantasy sports leagues.

So now Nevada is hosting every type of gambling known to man, Montana is allowing betting on fantasy leagues and March Madness, and both states have and continue to host NCAA Championship events. And yet when the NCAA threatens the state of Delaware with a rigid postseason hosting ban if they implement similar gambling, to suggest that Delaware is being singled out in someway is heresy? Frankly, in light of the factual information in front of us, just saying the NCAA isn't singling out in this case seems to be hopeful optimism rather than cemented in hard facts. xnodx

Retro

March 27th, 2009, 02:04 PM

I thought the NCAA said that it would not permit any ncaa post-season event, regardless if it is championship or first round of some sport...

What makes no sense in all this is the NCAA's stance on sports betting in the first place if it doesn't involve college teams.. There unwillingness to work with the state of delaware on that part speaks volume's about their arrogance! Who gives a **** from a collegiate standpoint if you can bet on pro sports in any state????xrolleyesx How does that affect college athletics??

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 02:05 PM

"NCAA spokeswoman Stacey Osburn said by her organization's rules, the prohibition would apply to all postseason games that are part of an official NCAA tournament." A little over a month ago, the University of Nevada hosted the NCAA Skiing Championships West Regional at Mt. Rose between Reno and Lake Tahoe. How is that permissible? It would seem to run contrary to the what the NCAA spokeswoman said. Unless a ski meet is not considered a game there is a problem. I would be very interested to hear the NCAA explanation on this.I'll "wager" xlolx they will say it's not a tournament championship, it's a qualifier and not part of the NCAA championship. xnodx

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 02:07 PM

Hey, stop starting the personal stuff (the "First State" crack) and it wouldn't be a problem.When did your name become First State? I wasn't even talking to you. Chill out maybe? xsmhx

mcveyrl

March 27th, 2009, 02:10 PM

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 02:12 PM

I'll "wager" xlolx they will say it's not a tournament championship, it's a qualifier and not part of the NCAA championship. xnodx

Hey, that's super then!!! We'll go to the NCAA with the "Syntax Error" Rule - since the NCAA National Championship game is played in Chattanooga, and the "qualifiers" to get into that championship are the first, quaterfinal, and semifinal round games (just as the NCAA West Regional was just a "qualifier" to get to the skiing championship) then we're all good!!!! Man, that's a big relief. Seeing Delaware and Montana barred from hosting non-Championship playoff games due to sports gambling in the respective states would have been a real downer! xlolxxlolxxlolx:p

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 02:13 PM

... the NCAA permitted part of the NCAA Skiing Championships to be run in Nevada ... Montana's "lottery" is not a lottery, per se, but are gambling on sports ... the NCAA threatens the state of Delaware with a rigid postseason hosting ban if they implement similar gambling...If that is true and is contrary to the NCAA rule, IF, then the NCAA is clearly wrong. xpeacex

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 02:14 PM

I know this is in FCS Discussion, but does anybody know if this would this also impact the rotation of the CAA Tournament in Women's Basketball? Are conference tournament's counted in this proposed ban?

No, conference tournaments are run by the conferences - there is no NCAA rule that bars them (well, no current rule, and no interpretation of a rule that may or may not exist). The Mountain West routinely plays conference championships in Nevada and I think they even played a conference championship in the mecca of all sports gambling, Las Vegas, with nary a complaint from the NCAA.

Syntax Error

March 27th, 2009, 02:16 PM

Hey, that's super then!!! We'll go to the NCAA with the "Syntax Error" Rule - since the NCAA National Championship game is played in Chattanooga, and the "qualifiers" to get into that championship are the first, quaterfinal, and semifinal round games...Hey leave me out of it, and the NCAA Division I Football Championships consists of 15 games, not just one. ;)

mcveyrl

March 27th, 2009, 02:16 PM

No, conference tournaments are run by the conferences - there is no NCAA rule that bars them (well, no current rule, and no interpretation of a rule that may or may not exist). The Mountain West routinely plays conference championships in Nevada and I think they even played a conference championship in the mecca of all sports gambling, Las Vegas, with nary a complaint from the NCAA.

That makes sense (and kind of what I suspected), thanks.

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 02:23 PM

If that is true and is contrary to the NCAA rule, IF, then the NCAA is clearly wrong. xpeacex

Well, unless they picked up a whole mountain, and moved it out of Nevada, then Nevada certainly did host part of an NCAA Championship this year when the NCAA West Skiing Regional took place on Mt. Rose. According to both Google and Wikipedia, Mt. Rose, at this time, is still located in Nevada.

And I clearly remember Montana playing host to Texas St and Weber St in two successive rounds of the FCS playoffs this past season, despite allowing betting on sports and on NCAA sports in particular, in that state.

http://marklipinskisblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/lucy-ricky.jpg
As Ricky Ricardo would say to the NCAA..."NCAA, you got some 'splainin' to do!!!"

GannonFan

March 27th, 2009, 02:26 PM

Hey leave me out of it, and the NCAA Division I Football Championships consists of 15 games, not just one.

So it just comes down to semantics then? We call the regionals in skiing "qualifiers" and not technically part of the championships and we call the same thing in football as "one whole championship". If the NCAA is going to play that interpretation, then I'll keep my calendar open every year to see a home playoff game in Newark, and I suspect I won't be disappointed (well, assuming Devlin doesn't go all Schoenhoft on us). xthumbsupx

93henfan

March 29th, 2009, 08:01 PM

There were quite a few articles regarding this subject in the Sunday papers this weekend:

Gap Between NCAA's Words and Actions Continues to Grow: http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009903290314

NCAA's Retaliatory Strike Lands Way Off Target: http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090329/SPORTS07/903290335

Markell tries to Block NFL Blitz: http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20090329/NEWS02/903290386

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell letter to Delaware Gov Jack Markell:
http://www.delawareonline.com/assets/pdf/BL131700329.PDF

Markell response letter to Goodell:
http://www.delawareonline.com/assets/pdf/BL131701329.PDF