Georgetown pulling out of PL??

[RichH2]

Rumors up that if PL does implement schollies GU will leave, if PL does not Fordham will leave.

What an interesting pickle?

[MplsBison]

Good, tell GU to get their Ivy wanna be a$$es out and join the Pioneer (wanna be Ivy) League.


I wonder if GU would consider dropping football considering the economy?

[Franks Tanks]

Good, tell GU to get their Ivy wanna be a$$es out and join the Pioneer (wanna be Ivy) League.


I wonder if GU would consider dropping football considering the economy?

Please dont give compare the Ivy and Pioneer League in any way.

[Model Citizen]

Rumors up that if PL does implement schollies GU will leave, if PL does not Fordham will leave.

"Rumors up" ??? Do you mean...on a message board? Did you just start this rumor yourself?

[TheValleyRaider]

There is a rumor floated on the Lafayette board that claims one school will leave if scholarships are not implemented (most likely Fordham), while another will leave if they are implemented (believed to be Georgetown)

To me, this seems a bit overwrought at the moment, but I'll leave others to make their own determination on its seriousness or veracity

[DFW HOYA]

That's BS. It's not even in the discussion.

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 26 other sports, so why not football? Of course, it may be 10 or 12, but it's "scholarship", right?

[Model Citizen]

Here's the thread.
http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about674.html&highlight=georgetown

"I'm hearing" doesn't convince me. "I'm hearing from someone really, really important" would've sold me, though. lol.

[Franks Tanks]

Here's the thread.
http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about674.html&highlight=georgetown

"I'm hearing" doesn't convince me. "I'm hearing from someone really, really important" would've sold me, though. lol.

Fordham's PL membership is more precarious than Georgetown's IMO, but where will Fordham go??? The Big South will be a joke for them.

[danefan]

Neither is likely.

Fordham (like Albany) has no option right now. The Big South is the only viable option and that isn't a great one because of the travel costs involved and the disimilarity between them and the Big South schools (moreso for Fordham - there aren't any Big South schools in Fordham's league academically).

However, if Albany, Fordham, Central Conn. and perhaps Monmouth were to get together and join the Big South it makes more sense. Even then Fordham won't have the academic counterparts, but it's not likely to get the academic counterparts in any FCS conference anyway unless it can somehow get in the CAA an be affiliated with Richmond, W&M and Villanova. But at least in a Big South with Fordham, Albany, CCSU, Monmouth and Stony Brook there would be natural geographic ties.

Even for G'town - what is the extra cost for them if the PL goes to scholarships? They aren't going to pull 63 rides that's for sure, but are they funding the same equivalencies as the rest of the PL now anyway? Unless the PL forces a minimum, then I can see G'town wallowing away at the bottom of the PL with about half of the scholarships of the rest of the league. And that would be different from now in what sense?

[MplsBison]

Fordham's PL membership is more precarious than Georgetown's IMO, but where will Fordham go??? The Big South will be a joke for them.

Works for Stony Brook. It would be easy travel partners.

[danefan]

Works for Stony Brook. It would be easy travel partners.

Has it worked for Stony Brook? The jury is still out, IMO.

We haven't seen that they have increased the competitiveness nationally or even locally.

I'm not saying it won't work in the long run, but no one knows yet.

Its very likely Albany and SBU will end up in the exact same place in 5 years having travelled very different paths to get there.xthumbsupx And I hope that's true because right now we have no rival. SBU used to be a great rivalry for Albany.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think movement by Fordham is likely for one reason: basketball.

No, not PL basketball, but A-10 basketball.

As discussed on this board, Fordham spends more on football than any other PL school, and almost three times that of Georgetown (though not always with three times the results). However, in basketball, Fordham is 9th in the Atlantic 10 in basketball spending and is strugglign through a brutal 3-22 season. For change to come to Ram basketball, be it coaching buyouts, a new coach, games at Madison Square Garden, etc., it will come with money. Where would they some of that get that extra money in the budget? Football would be one source. Not that a $4.3 M football budget is going to become a $3.3M one, but a more competitive basketball program has to be a priority right now.

This is not an economic climate to try to sell your trustees on additional athletic travel. Almost every PL opponent is a four hour drive from Fordham. What's the cost to send 100 players and their coaches to Coastal Carolina, Gardner Webb, or even VMI? And how many of these schools will send fans to New York? Fordham draws only 4,000 a game now--how many more are coming to see Liberty and Presbyterian?

This is one reason the PL is status quo--there really are no good options for Fordham and Georgetown (much less the other schools) to consider. Unless the A-10 schools like Fordham, Dayton, Duquesne, and URI start its own mid-major league and make offers to Georgetown, Villanova, and Holy Cross, the PL is going to be around for a while.

[MplsBison]

Well I hope Fordham calls your bluff and tries to make it work in a scholarship conference.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's BS. It's not even in the discussion.

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 26 other sports, so why not football? Of course, it may be 10 or 12, but it's "scholarship", right?

Georgetown already doesn't support the program, terrible facilities, fan support, teams. I think it makes sense that they would not opt for schollies.

[RichH2]

The question ,if it even exists, is really something like would the presidents be be likely to try to keep a more prestigious academic scoll or a more competitive football school/?

[RichH2]

Pardon my typing

[HoyaMetanoia]

I guess Georgetown could just join the Ivy League...

[MplsBison]

I guess Georgetown could just join the Ivy League...

Would GU bball leave the Big East for a full membership in the IL?

[Seawolf97]

Like everyone else there is no magic conference to join. So unless GU dropped football the only alternative is the PFL. Given the travel expenses of a move to the PFL , scholarship football might be a wiser move.

[ngineer]

Since we're talking about the manner of giving money to students rather than the amount, I don't see the big difference. Going schollie I would think would help Gtown recruit just as with the rest of the PL not being tied down to need-based foumulas.

[crusader11]

Rumors up that if PL does implement schollies GU will leave, if PL does not Fordham will leave.

What an interesting pickle?

Well if Georgetown were to leave than there would go an automatic win.

[Go...gate]

Can't see it happening.

[Fordham]

Interesting thread and I'll hopefully find out more this week as we have Meet the Recruits with Coach M. Other than that, I have heard lines akin to "we're going to have schollies sooner rather than later" floated around but certainly nothing more specific or less speculative than that.

Personally I'd be very surprised if we were so openly at odds with one of our fellow Jesuit schools on this. Not that wouldn't be at odds but I would think that this would be something that would be worked out/discussed/argued over between the Bronx and D.C. as opposed to playing out at PL headquarters.

The one thing I can't understand is the cost issue. Why can't all teams just convert from need based aid to scholarships and keep budgets the same?

[carney2]

No one seems to KNOW what, if anything, is going on here, but the most lively rumors (and I use that word intentionally here) seem to be sprouting on the Lafayette board. If you are really interested in this topic, I suggest that you visit there regularly for the next few days or so:

http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about674.html

Some of the more interesting points being made:

Fordham is the driving force here and will take their ball and go home if they don't get scholarships. Deadline is June.

Georgetown will leave if scholarships are approved.

Villanova is examining its athletics cost structure for sports that do not involve dribbling and dunking. They might be amenable to looking at the Patriot League if scholarships are approved.

A potential stumbling block would be Title IX implications. (Don't know if this is true or not.)

Just a reminder: Some months ago, Carolyn Femovich, the Patriot League Executive Director, hinted that the league was considering some alternatives for expansion (no mention of scholarships at that time), and that things might begin to move this summer.

All interesting. All speculation at this point.

[MplsBison]

The PL having scholarships would be ideal.


One question: would future PL recruits be able to sign NLIs?

[Husky Alum]

Where would Fordham go to play football?

Hypothetically speaking....

The America East.

Here we go, AE football - UNH, URI, Maine, SBU, Albany and Fordham.

That's six teams. All ya need for a conference.

Convince UMass to join, you've got 7. Wouldn't be THAT bad of a league.

The CAA would drop down to 10 (if you include ODU and GSU and back out UNH, URI, Maine and UMass) - and that's somewhat manageable.

If the PL was looking for a replacement for Non-Scholy football, I'm sure they could call NU and the Huskies likely would bite.

[Go...gate]

Where would Fordham go to play football?

Hypothetically speaking....

The America East.

Here we go, AE football - UNH, URI, Maine, SBU, Albany and Fordham.

That's six teams. All ya need for a conference.

Convince UMass to join, you've got 7. Wouldn't be THAT bad of a league.

The CAA would drop down to 10 (if you include ODU and GSU and back out UNH, URI, Maine and UMass) - and that's somewhat manageable.

If the PL was looking for a replacement for Non-Scholy football, I'm sure they could call NU and the Huskies likely would bite.

Agreed.

[Fordham]

Where would Fordham go to play football?

Hypothetically speaking....

The America East.

Here we go, AE football - UNH, URI, Maine, SBU, Albany and Fordham.

That's six teams. All ya need for a conference.

Convince UMass to join, you've got 7. Wouldn't be THAT bad of a league.

The CAA would drop down to 10 (if you include ODU and GSU and back out UNH, URI, Maine and UMass) - and that's somewhat manageable.

If the PL was looking for a replacement for Non-Scholy football, I'm sure they could call NU and the Huskies likely would bite.

I agree with DFW here that our problem is that there aren't any clear alternatives. The scenario you describe above seems a few years from happening and I think there are certainly other conference shake-ups that are anticipated (e.g. - possible Big East ripple effect, CAA expansion effect, etc.). I doubt anyone at Fordham or any of these other schools interested in a new affiliation/conference want to make a move early and then regret having moved so quickly because there was a better alternative that developed soon thereafter.

Again, I'll hopefully know more this week but as it stands now I'd be surprised if we left the PL due to the lack of alternatives.

[Fordham]

Also - is this Deja vu all over again? Go back to when we were all-sports members and I believe we laid down the gauntlet and said we needed schollies due to the giant sucking sound coming from our gym (... some things never change). The league said 'no' and we obviously left as all-sports members and then they turn around and agree to them after HC does the same exact thing a few years later.

So ... will we be leaving the PL only to see some other all-sports member make the same scholarship demand in a little while and get it?

[carney2]

Where would Fordham go to play football?

Hypothetically speaking....

The America East.

Here we go, AE football - UNH, URI, Maine, SBU, Albany and Fordham.

That's six teams. All ya need for a conference.

Convince UMass to join, you've got 7. Wouldn't be THAT bad of a league.

Fordham in bed with 100% large state universities. Now, that would be a formula for athletic - particularly football - success.

[dgreco]

kick out Fordham and finally invite Bryant. Then in 3 years Bentley will make the move and you get Bentley in as an all sports member too. Bryant can stay non-scholarship/GIA in football and stay competitive academically/athletically.

If they stay in the NEC they will have to grow by alot. 3,200 students vs an average of nearly 7,000 means they need to grow and will change the dynamics of the university. The PL also allows Bryant to grow its liberal arts college more rapidly, because I am sure it would be a request...

[Sly Fox]

Fordham draws only 4,000 a game now--how many more are coming to see Liberty and Presbyterian?

Since you asked ...

2007 in Lynchburg
15307

2008 in Clinton
6193

I think most of the FCS (outside of the SoCon) would be surprised to see how well the Big South is drawing these days with the obvious exceptions of tiny schools like CSU and G-W.

Stony Brook is obviously a short term arrangement with the Big South and I'd certainly enjoy Fordham following suit. But I agree it is unlikely.

[carney2]

kick out Fordham and finally invite Bryant. Then in 3 years Bentley will make the move and you get Bentley in as an all sports member too. Bryant can stay non-scholarship/GIA in football and stay competitive academically/athletically.

If they stay in the NEC they will have to grow by alot. 3,200 students vs an average of nearly 7,000 means they need to grow and will change the dynamics of the university. The PL also allows Bryant to grow its liberal arts college more rapidly, because I am sure it would be a request...

Plan B: Convince Swarthmore to dig their football program out of its grave and commit to FCS at the same time. With this leverage the PL could pressure Haverford to join them.

Plan C: Convince Williams to move up to D-1 and then put the pressure on to drag Amherst along.

Plan D: Put the word out to Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt and Tulane that the first two that commit to going FCS and joining the Patriot League get an autographed picture of Carolyn Femovich, suitable for framing.

Let's just keep the dunderhead proposals rolling in.

[dgreco]

hey! Bryant wanted the PL and did not get the invite. Also, if you wathc the Interview with Machtley on LAX.com he says that the NE-10 is in a lot of trouble and that is why they got out. Bryant/Bentley would be a decent package move. Especially since Bentley is on the path to explore/expand its campus

[LBPop]

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 26 other sports, so why not football? Of course, it may be 10 or 12, but it's "scholarship", right?

This is the key point that I think is being overlooked in the Georgetown scholarship question. There's no money. So unless there is a required minimum number of scholarships, the school can continue as it has under the current PL system--offering less money and a tougher AI. But the coach and the AD can simply allocate their limited funds as they wish without all the financial disclosure hassles.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wouldn't be so quick to throw that Bryant speculation to the curb, carney. While it is speculation and not fact, Bryant isn't exactly a fantastic fit in the NEC - getting pounded by Albany in football while hobnobbing with Sacred Heart academically. IMO Bryant would jump at the PL if given the chance - the problem being, as always, if the PL will EVER extend and invitation to ANYBODY.

I'd even go as far as to say as speculation goes, there's a better chance of Bryant joining the PL than Fordham bailing or Georgetown bailing. (Or Swarthmore joining, for that matter.)

Let's add a bit more gas on this fire, too - don't you think Holy Cross would give their right arm for conference games that don't require three hour bus trips? In all sports, too.

[carney2]

I wouldn't be so quick to throw that Bryant speculation to the curb, carney. While it is speculation and not fact, Bryant isn't exactly a fantastic fit in the NEC - getting pounded by Albany in football while hobnobbing with Sacred Heart academically. IMO Bryant would jump at the PL if given the chance - the problem being, as always, if the PL will EVER extend and invitation to ANYBODY.

I'd even go as far as to say as speculation goes, there's a better chance of Bryant joining the PL than Fordham bailing or Georgetown bailing. (Or Swarthmore joining, for that matter.)

Let's add a bit more gas on this fire, too - don't you think Holy Cross would give their right arm for conference games that don't require three hour bus trips? In all sports, too.

Apologies to Mr. Greco and to Bryant football fans - both of them. I allowed Mr. SmartButt to nudge Mr. KnowSomeFacts aside during my response. The aforementioned Mr. ...Facts has done some minimal research and determined the following;

Knowing absolutely nothing about Bryant, the academics were, surprisingly, better than expected: Acceptance Rate = 36%; Avg. SATs = 1790; Avg. High School GPA = 3.4 (All according to Wikipedia)

The football schedule, while not top notch, is not totally a D-3 wannabe with the likes of UMass, Monmouth and Duquesne thrown in.

The basketball team looks like they could at least show up against some of what I've seen in the Patriot League. Lafayette's last place finish would probably not be jeopardized.

On the other hand, Bulldog Stadium seats only 4,400 and the picture on the website makes it look like (a) a glorified high school field, or (b) a renovated cow pasture. (Before anyone gets on their "Georgetown only seats 2,000" horse, please note that no other current PL member is in the below 5,000 range.)

Also, the forces of Bryant football were blown out by Marist. Not a high recommendation in my opinion.

What exactly would Bryant - or Bentley - bring to the table besides an agreeable location for the Holy Cross travel budget? In terms of future expansion possibilities when/if some very serious candidates become available, would having a Bryant in the mix hurt our chances?

Serious questions. Fire away.

[danefan]

Apologies to Mr. Greco and to Bryant football fans - both of them. I allowed Mr. SmartButt to nudge Mr. KnowSomeFacts aside during my response. The aforementioned Mr. ...Facts has done some minimal research and determined the following;

Knowing absolutely nothing about Bryant, the academics were, surprisingly, better than expected: Acceptance Rate = 36%; Avg. SATs = 1790; Avg. High School GPA = 3.4 (All according to Wikipedia)

The football schedule, while not top notch, is not totally a D-3 wannabe with the likes of UMass, Monmouth and Duquesne thrown in.

The basketball team looks like they could at least show up against some of what I've seen in the Patriot League. Lafayette's last place finish would probably not be jeopardized.

On the other hand, Bulldog Stadium seats only 4,400 and the picture on the website makes it look like (a) a glorified high school field, or (b) a renovated cow pasture. (Before anyone gets on their "Georgetown only seats 2,000" horse, please note that no other current PL member is in the below 5,000 range.)

Also, the forces of Bryant football were blown out by Marist. Not a high recommendation in my opinion.

What exactly would Bryant - or Bentley - bring to the table besides an agreeable location for the Holy Cross travel budget? In terms of future expansion possibilities when/if some very serious candidates become available, would having a Bryant in the mix hurt our chances?

Serious questions. Fire away.

Bryant's schedule this year will be as tough as a few PL teams:

Full NEC slate plus
vs.Southern Ct (good DII team)
vs. Hofstra
@ Fordham

I don't know if they fit the PL model, but who really does besides current PL teams, some CAA teams (W&M, Nova, Richmond), and the Ivy's.

Most schools that fit the PL model in the northeast are DIII.

[dgreco]

Apologies to Mr. Greco and to Bryant football fans - both of them. I allowed Mr. SmartButt to nudge Mr. KnowSomeFacts aside during my response. The aforementioned Mr. ...Facts has done some minimal research and determined the following;

Knowing absolutely nothing about Bryant, the academics were, surprisingly, better than expected: Acceptance Rate = 36%; Avg. SATs = 1790; Avg. High School GPA = 3.4 (All according to Wikipedia)

The football schedule, while not top notch, is not totally a D-3 wannabe with the likes of UMass, Monmouth and Duquesne thrown in.

The basketball team looks like they could at least show up against some of what I've seen in the Patriot League. Lafayette's last place finish would probably not be jeopardized.

On the other hand, Bulldog Stadium seats only 4,400 and the picture on the website makes it look like (a) a glorified high school field, or (b) a renovated cow pasture. (Before anyone gets on their "Georgetown only seats 2,000" horse, please note that no other current PL member is in the below 5,000 range.)

Also, the forces of Bryant football were blown out by Marist. Not a high recommendation in my opinion.

What exactly would Bryant - or Bentley - bring to the table besides an agreeable location for the Holy Cross travel budget? In terms of future expansion possibilities when/if some very serious candidates become available, would having a Bryant in the mix hurt our chances?

Serious questions. Fire away.

Basketball got a lot better as the season progressed. Overall they are a solid athletic program in all sports. Also, Lacrosse will be their premeire sport and I think they will be NC material.

Also, the stadium says it holds 4,400, but Many games average over 5,000 and that is all within the stands. For stadium improvements it would be needed, same for the basketball court.

Academically I think they need to fit more into a liberal arts college mold. Overall, I think Bryant is 3 or 4 years away from PL mold if they worked towards it, but all of this is attainable. I think they went with the NEC because they said yes and they have been very helpful to Bryant. Almost too helpful at the expense of its' current members.

[Redwyn]

It seems like a total campus transformation is a bit of overkill by Bryant for the sake of football. While Bryant has high standards, if it is true that it doesn't meet PL standards, I'm not sure a whole campus can change like that. Have others done this?

[dgreco]

the only changes it would need are to add more seats to the stadium and then maybe redo the basketball arena. I do not know how it stands (2,700 capacity).

Each side is this size:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Blackoutcourtshot.jpg

football and then they have about 1,500 or so non permanent seats on the visitor side:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Bryantvwestchester.jpg

As for campus transformation the campus is a beautiful campus and ready to go. The change would be admission and expanding the liberal arts curriculum. Again, two things I think the school was pursuing. I think if the NEC is their permanent home you will see study body increase as the only change.

[Go...gate]

IMO, if Georgetown pulls out the only place they can go is the Pioneer.

As a long-time PL fan, and with no disrespect intended to my respected colleagues at Fordham and Georgetown, I have to say that at some point, you have to decide to be in or out of the tent. The PL needs teams who want to commit to the league, not be there as an expedient.

[Fordham]

IMO, if Georgetown pulls out the only place they can go is the Pioneer.

As a long-time PL fan, and with no disrespect intended to my respected colleagues at Fordham and Georgetown, I have to say that at some point, you have to decide to be in or out of the tent. The PL needs teams who want to commit to the league, not be there as an expedient.

Not really sure what that means. We want out but there's no place to go. Do you seriously think we'd just pull up stakes without having a place to go? Further, it's been a very short time since the implementation of the new AI rule that's driving this at Fordham - has it really been long enough to suggest we're dragging our feet on this? Keep in mind as well that while the rest of the league may be ambivalent about our programs, if we leave you lose the auto-bid. Do you or the rest of the league really want us to make that much of a snap decision?

Long-short - let's just admit that we're basically staying together until the kids are old enough to handle this, which imo is whenever the next round of conference shake-ups occur. Besides, a lot of stuff could happen between then and now.

[Bull Fan]

Why does FU want out of the PL? I thought it was a good fit.

[Redwyn]

the only changes it would need are to add more seats to the stadium and then maybe redo the basketball arena. I do not know how it stands (2,700 capacity).

Each side is this size:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/91/Blackoutcourtshot.jpg

football and then they have about 1,500 or so non permanent seats on the visitor side:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ac/Bryantvwestchester.jpg

As for campus transformation the campus is a beautiful campus and ready to go. The change would be admission and expanding the liberal arts curriculum. Again, two things I think the school was pursuing. I think if the NEC is their permanent home you will see study body increase as the only change.

I really like the way that football stand looks. Hope the expansion keeps with the design.

Anyways, if it's something the school was pursuing, then more power to you guys. While it takes years to transform a school's focus, there've been plenty of cases of it being pulled off with a good deal of success.

Best of luck!

[carney2]

Why does FU want out of the PL? I thought it was a good fit.

You arrived in the middle of the movie:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55661&highlight=Fordham

[RichH2]

Gee, I knew I felt like a box of Junior mints

[RichH2]

Just when I thought the movie was over, a double feature. From FU board, Massella made the statement at their ucneon that FU had indeed informed the Pl that it wants schollies by June 09 or they are going independent in 2010.

[danefan]

Just when I thought the movie was over, a double feature. From FU board, Massella made the statement at their ucneon that FU had indeed informed the Pl that it wants schollies by June 09 or they are going independent in 2010.\

Hard to imagine something with such specific dates would be made up, could it?

[Franks Tanks]

\

Hard to imagine something with such specific dates would be made up, could it?

True. What bothers me here is the short timeline in a terrible economy. I would think Fordham would be in a breach of contrcat situation claiming they would pull out of the league with barely a year's notice, but who knows.

[OLPOP]

Read it at Fordhamfans.com.

[danefan]

True. What bothers me here is the short timeline in a terrible economy. I would think Fordham would be in a breach of contrcat situation claiming they would pull out of the league with barely a year's notice, but who knows.

But perhaps this isn't a new development, but just newly made public.

I seem to remember the PL Commish saying months ago that something was going to happen by June 2009.

Well if this is true, something is definitely going to happen - either PL is going scholarship, or Fordham is going Indy.

[danefan]

Read it at Fordhamfans.com.

There is way TOOO much detail in that post on Fordhamfans.com to be made up.

One of you Fordham guys should make a separate thread over here about this. It deserves it. Could be a major shakeup in the FCS world.

[Franks Tanks]

But perhaps this isn't a new development, but just newly made public.

I seem to remember the PL Commish saying months ago that something was going to happen by June 2009.

Well if this is true, something is definitely going to happen - either PL is going scholarship, or Fordham is going Indy.

True, I am sure things have been known behind the scenes for a while. This just appears to be a bad time for an ultimatium and I think Fordham will not be any better off playing in the Big South with a bunch of schools far away (except SBU) and little tradition or things in common.

[RichH2]

No ,The Fordhampush dates back to conference on AI at least, but the short ultimatum is a surprise and not one that the PL can realistically implement on such short notice in such a bad economy.Too much uncertainty over $$$, even if schollies as some contend will not cost schools more. True if schollies are ltd to 25-30max per school maybe. but will that make PLmore competitive?? dunno. This one is going to be interesting thru the spring.

[danefan]

True, I am sure things have been known behind the scenes for a while. This just appears to be a bad time for an ultimatium and I think Fordham will not be any better off playing in the Big South with a bunch of schools far away (except SBU) and little tradition or things in common.

Albany's contract with the NEC is up after the 2010 season.

Perhaps we could see both Albany and Fordham in the Big South in 2011.
Add Central Conn. or Monmouth and you've got a nice Northern Division of the new Big America conference (Big South renamed).

Conferences are becoming more like scheduling arrangements than university affiliations anyway.

[DetroitFlyer]

Well, I'm not buying the "explanations" offered as to why Dayton and Marist dropped off the Fordham schedule.

The poster claims that Marist did not consider it a winnable game, and Dayton did not want the travel costs....

Neither excuse passes the smell test....

Given those two lame explanations, I have to wonder about the accuracy of the information in the rest of the post....

[danefan]

Well, I'm not buying the "explanations" offered as to why Dayton and Marist dropped off the Fordham schedule.

The poster claims that Marist did not consider it a winnable game, and Dayton did not want the travel costs....

Neither excuse passes the smell test....

Given those two lame explanations, I have to wonder about the accuracy of the information in the rest of the post....

What's Massella going to say in a meeting with Alumns and donors - "We don't want to play Dayton becase there's too much downside (especially considering the recent history)."

I can see Marist saying they don't want to play up. That's not unbelievable. And you gave Marist too much credit. They'll be a mid-level PFL team.

[RichH2]

Interesting sidelight perhaps. In reading Posts on FU board , thrust appears to add FCS schools meaning at least 56.5 schollies, more than any other school at last count in the PL

[danefan]

Interesting sidelight perhaps. In reading Posts on FU board , thrust appears to add FCS schools meaning at least 56.5 schollies, more than any other school at last count in the PL

That has to be one of the major selling points by FU to other PL schools - becoming counters.

[OLPOP]

If I were tech savy I'd transfer the thread over here, but I'm not. Anybody?

[Fordham]

I was there as well and it all was said.

Rich - not sure why it limits the #'s of schollies we can give or changes anything. Masella stated that we're currently at 58 equivalencies and stressed that we wouldn't spend a dime more on scholarships than we do today but that we'd just get a lot more bang for our buck. Everyone else can do the same, if they so choose. Whatever the # of equivelencies that a school currently has, they'd have more flexbility and also get more 'bang for their buck' by converting to schollies as well.

I agree that this deserves its own thread. There was just a ton of content in there - best and most game-changing meeting I've ever been to with the club.

[LeopardFan04]

If I were tech savy I'd transfer the thread over here, but I'm not. Anybody?

Here's the link to the thread over there:

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,284.0.html

[JoltinJoe]

Glad you checked in, Fordham, because I wasn't sure if the information you emailed was supposed to be confidential or not.

Fordham spends about $4 million a year on football and can't be expected to make that kind of investment in a league which has enacted recruiting rules which severely restrict its ability to reap benefits from that investment.

20 years ago, Fordham's association with the PL was a blessing. In the late
1980s -- after nearly two decades of negative drumbeats about the Bronx -- Fordham was struggling to retain its identity as a premier university amid rapidly declining applications and bad public perceptions about its location. It was losing out to its younger cousin, Fairfield, and its swanky upscale location. In the world of Jesuit education, Fordham was becoming more like Fairfield and Loyola Baltimore than Holy Cross or Georgetown, at least in terms of the competitiveness of the student profile.

Then guidance counselors warned students about Fordham's proximity to Charlotte Street. Now, as Fordham's area has spruced up and improved, guidance counselors stress the school's academics; its location surrounded by a world famous zoo, a world famous botanical garden, and a one of the best ethnic neighborhods in America serving the finest Italian food. Applications run about 25,000 a year and the acceptance rate hovers around 40%.

Fordham can stand on its own today without the crutch of PL membership raising its profile.

Personally, I'd love to stay in the PL, but things have to change.

[MplsBison]

So it looks like Fordham will be leaving for the Big South. I have a hard time believing that the PL will change any time soon.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Hopefully the PL finally goes institutes schollies for football. I would love to see what Lehigh could do with scholarships given the talent they've been able to recruit without them. I have to believe that the traditionally top programs in the PL, Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate, would immediately give the best from the CAA a run for their money. Unfortunately I can't see everyone agreeing on all the details would might lead to a mess.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Umass, URI, Richmond and fordham...just 2 teams away for the A10 ;)

[bostonspider]

Quinn
UR will not be leaving the CAA Football league for any reasons, unless they get kicked out, and I cannot really see that one happening..

[Go...gate]

Hopefully the PL finally institutes schollies for football. I would love to see what Lehigh could do with scholarships given the talent they've been able to recruit without them. I have to believe that the traditionally top programs in the PL, Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate, would immediately give the best from the CAA a run for their money. Unfortunately I can't see everyone agreeing on all the details, which might lead to a mess.

Agreed.

[Seawolf97]

I think the Fordham announcement has shook some foundations in the PLxnodx

[MDFAN]

I hope so

[HoyaMetanoia]

I need someone to explain to me exactly how switching to scholarships benefits Fordham and gets them "more bang for their buck"?

[State Line Liquors]

Quinn
UR will not be leaving the CAA Football league for any reasons, unless they get kicked out, and I cannot really see that one happening..

Any reason at this point why Richmond wouldn't want to think about bringing all their sports back from A-10 to CAA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the move to the A-10 basically a move for basketball? A-10 bball tourney being played in A.C. next weekend, CAA bball tourney being played at the Richmond Coliseum this weekend. CAA basketball is nearly on par with A-10 bball. I can't help but think that decision was a mistake. It'd be great to have the Spiders back as a full participating member of the CAA.

[Tim James]

Any reason at this point why Richmond wouldn't want to think about bringing all their sports back from A-10 to CAA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the move to the A-10 basically a move for basketball? A-10 bball tourney being played in A.C. next weekend, CAA bball tourney being played at the Richmond Coliseum this weekend. CAA basketball is nearly on par with A-10 bball. I can't help but think that decision was a mistake. It'd be great to have the Spiders back as a full participating member of the CAA.

In the basketball tournament CAA is usually a 1 bid league, 2 bid MAX. A-10 is usually a 2-3 bid league and has gotten more than in the past.. An extra spot makes a huge difference when youre fighting to get into the tournment.

[blukeys]

Any reason at this point why Richmond wouldn't want to think about bringing all their sports back from A-10 to CAA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the move to the A-10 basically a move for basketball? A-10 bball tourney being played in A.C. next weekend, CAA bball tourney being played at the Richmond Coliseum this weekend. CAA basketball is nearly on par with A-10 bball. I can't help but think that decision was a mistake. It'd be great to have the Spiders back as a full participating member of the CAA.

The Spiders did move for basketball.

I agree that the distance between the CAA and the A-10 is negligible. In most years the A-10 holds the advantage but not in every year and the gap closes more every year.

Richmond also gets back all of the local rivalries in all sports when they come back to the CAA full time.

[Jackman]

CAA basketball is nearly on par with A-10 bball.
The Colonials keep saying this, but the facts are that the CAA has only received 3 at large tournament bids in its entire history, while the A10 has only NOT received an at large bid 4 times over that same period. It's 43 to 3 since 1983. The CAA had a nice run between 2006 and 2007 when they managed to stop the gap with the A10 from increasing further, but it got larger last year and will probably increase this year as well.

The CAA is a decent mid-major, but a 1 bid league is a 1 bid league is a 1 bid league. It may as well be the worst basketball conference if usually only the tournament champion is going to make it to postseason.

Why would the CAA want Richmond back anyway? They already have too many Virginia schools, and Richmond is the smallest of them. No serious conference has six members in the same state.

[Jackman]

Umass, URI, Richmond and fordham...just 2 teams away for the A10 ;)
Charlotte is on the way.
(Not that I seriously see A10 Football returning.)

[TheValleyRaider]

So...can we fairly say the thread title may have been mislabelled? xconfusedx xreadx xsmiley_wix

[MplsBison]

I need someone to explain to me exactly how switching to scholarships benefits Fordham and gets them "more bang for their buck"?

They will no longer be limited to recruiting players who are already smart enough to get into the school on academic merit alone.

[HoyaMetanoia]

They will no longer be limited to recruiting players who are already smart enough to get into the school on academic merit alone.

But there will still be academic standards for these players to meet. And it's not like these kids are getting in through normal admissions now. Like I said before, I'd be willing to guess that almost none of the players Georgetown brings in on a yearly basis would be able to get in through regular admissions.

[danefan]

But there will still be academic standards for these players to meet. And it's not like these kids are getting in through normal admissions now. Like I said before, I'd be willing to guess that almost none of the players Georgetown brings in on a yearly basis would be able to get in through regular admissions.

That's the not the bang for the buck.

They will be a full scholarship football team. Coach Masella can go into a kids living room and say - we think you are a good ball player, you have good grades, you come from a good family and we want to offer you a scholarship.

He no longer cares about how much money the kids parents make. That is HUGE.

[DetroitFlyer]

So...can we fairly say the thread title may have been mislabelled? xconfusedx xreadx xsmiley_wix


It eliminates the "need based aid" requirement. Today, if an upper middle class kid wants to play at Fordham, odds are that he will not qualify for much need based aid. So, Fordham cannot offer him a "need based" scholarship equivalent. In the future, Fordham can offer that kid a full ride.

Of course when you are talking academics, the current reality is that the upper income kids are typically the kids with the higher academics.

Tough to recruit the "need based aid" kids that are also top academic students. The pool of potential candidates gets darn slim....

Now, if Fordham leaves the PL, I suppose they could admit anyone they wanted to do since the AI would no longer be a factor. I doubt that they lower their standards a great deal, but you never know.... How intense is the desire to win at any costs...?

[89Hen]

The Colonials keep saying this, but the facts are that the CAA has only received 3 at large tournament bids in its entire history, while the A10 has only NOT received an at large bid 4 times over that same period. It's 43 to 3 since 1983. The CAA had a nice run between 2006 and 2007 when they managed to stop the gap with the A10 from increasing further, but it got larger last year and will probably increase this year as well.

The CAA is a decent mid-major, but a 1 bid league is a 1 bid league is a 1 bid league. It may as well be the worst basketball conference if usually only the tournament champion is going to make it to postseason.
Food for thought.... Richmond went the NCAA's five times as a member of the CAA (four times as an at-large) and once since joining the A10. xpeacex

[bostonspider]

5 times in 20 years, and only one time as an at-large, not four, four times as the conference tourney champion. One time in the 6 years so far in the A-10, and thie one time was as an at-large. But then again it is tough to compare eras as UR had Coaches Tarrant and Beilein in their time in the CAA and have had Wainwright and Mooney in the A-10....

[MplsBison]

But there will still be academic standards for these players to meet. And it's not like these kids are getting in through normal admissions now. Like I said before, I'd be willing to guess that almost none of the players Georgetown brings in on a yearly basis would be able to get in through regular admissions.


But it will be up to Fordham if a kid gets in, rather than it being up to the Patriot League if a kid gets in. It's about control, always is.

[MplsBison]

That's the not the bang for the buck.

They will be a full scholarship football team. Coach Masella can go into a kids living room and say - we think you are a good ball player, you have good grades, you come from a good family and we want to offer you a scholarship.

He no longer cares about how much money the kids parents make. That is HUGE.

That's another great point.


Assuming a kid has the academics to get into the school, then athletic merit alone, not the family's wealth, will determine how much money a kid gets.


That's the way it should be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But there will still be academic standards for these players to meet. And it's not like these kids are getting in through normal admissions now. Like I said before, I'd be willing to guess that almost none of the players Georgetown brings in on a yearly basis would be able to get in through regular admissions.

That's a load of baloney, and you know it. By definition they need to go through the regular admissions office. Let's assume that your lame-brained statement had even a shred of truth to it. Why then, pray tell, hasn't Georgetown become a football powerhouse, then, with Kelly "greasing the way" for all these academic lightweights that play football so well? xrolleyesx

[HoyaMetanoia]

That's a load of baloney, and you know it. By definition they need to go through the regular admissions office. Let's assume that your lame-brained statement had even a shred of truth to it. Why then, pray tell, hasn't Georgetown become a football powerhouse, then, with Kelly "greasing the way" for all these academic lightweights that play football so well? xrolleyesx

They do go through the regular admissions office, but the pull they get from football is what gets them in. I'm not tying it to our performance on the field at all. If you look at Georgetown's regular admissions pool, even if their AI numbers make them remotely comparable to their peers, they wouldn't have a shot otherwise. There are still a lot of kids Georgetown couldn't get in, because the AI for the school is high, but that doesn't mean the kids who do get in would have a chance at regular admission without football help.

[89Hen]

5 times in 20 years, and only one time as an at-large, not four, four times as the conference tourney champion.
xoopsx I was looking at standings not thinking about the conference tourney. Maybe I should stick to football. :o

[bison137]

That's a load of baloney, and you know it. By definition they need to go through the regular admissions office. Let's assume that your lame-brained statement had even a shred of truth to it. Why then, pray tell, hasn't Georgetown become a football powerhouse, then, with Kelly "greasing the way" for all these academic lightweights that play football so well? xrolleyesx



The majority of football/basketball players at almost all D1 programs with good academics would not be admitted if they did not play a sport. That is also true of many athletes in other sports.

For example, the average SAT difference in the Patriot League between football players and other enrolled male students is at least 150 points. In the Ivy League it is probably a bigger gap.

[LBPop]

That's a load of baloney, and you know it. By definition they need to go through the regular admissions office. Let's assume that your lame-brained statement had even a shred of truth to it. Why then, pray tell, hasn't Georgetown become a football powerhouse, then, with Kelly "greasing the way" for all these academic lightweights that play football so well? xrolleyesx

LFN, I love your site and love reading your posts, but if I read your comment correctly, you are not correct here. There is absolutely no question that Georgetown and the Ivys (the only places where I have experience) get kids in for football who would have not otherwise qualified. Your example of "academic lightweights" is hyperbole. Georgetown does not admit everyone that Kelly asks for. But Georgetown does admit people for Kelly who would not otherwise have had a chance without his endorsement. I cannot recite percentages, but I can cite extensive anecdotal evidence. I have related this story in prior years, but when LBKid visited Yale I asked the coach how many of the previous year's recruits would have been accepted without football. His estimate was two. I didn't check, but I suspect that they recruited a lot more than two kids that season.

I know it's not personal but when this topic comes up I always get the sense that people see an inverse relationship between intelligence and football talent. My guess is that this would be statistically true with respect to any physical skill. If you limit yourself to only the extremely bright people when searching for any skill, you will miss a bunch of otherwise talented people. This might be true among chefs, artists, musicians, etc. So if you can only choose football players with a certain level of intelligence, you're gonna miss some good ones. That's not to say that they're dummies...they just didn't measure up to a particular standard.

One final comment. There is another bias with respect to intelligent kids and football. It's not talent--it's desire. An Ivy League head coach openly questioned my son's desire to play football. Why? Because my kid had among the highest combined academic score that they had recruited that season. If I was not a rookie in this process, I would have blasted the guy. There was nothing to indicate that my son had anything other than a fierce love for the game. He ended up playing through injuries, severe illness and ultimately ankle surgery. And he, like his Georgetown teammates, put in all the hours that every D-I kid puts in, but they did so knowing that they were much more likely to lose than win each week. Yeah, he liked football--but none of the LB clan liked that coach very much.

[89Hen]

The majority of football/basketball players at almost all D1 programs with good academics would not be admitted if they did not play a sport. That is also true of many athletes in other sports.
xnodx My neice is having a heck of a time getting into the schools she wants because she has decided to not play volleyball in college. She was told by several coaches if she wanted to play volleyball, they could get her in.

[danefan]

LFN, I love your site and love reading your posts, but if I read your comment correctly, you are not correct here. There is absolutely no question that Georgetown and the Ivys (the only places where I have experience) get kids in for football who would have not otherwise qualified. Your example of "academic lightweights" is hyperbole. Georgetown does not admit everyone that Kelly asks for. But Georgetown does admit people for Kelly who would not otherwise have had a chance without his endorsement. I cannot recite percentages, but I can cite extensive anecdotal evidence. I have related this story in prior years, but when LBKid visited Yale I asked the coach how many of the previous year's recruits would have been accepted without football. His estimate was two. I didn't check, but I suspect that they recruited a lot more than two kids that season.

I know it's not personal but when this topic comes up I always get the sense that people see an inverse relationship between intelligence and football talent. My guess is that this would be statistically true with respect to any physical skill. If you limit yourself to only the extremely bright people when searching for any skill, you will miss a bunch of otherwise talented people. This might be true among chefs, artists, musicians, etc. So if you can only choose football players with a certain level of intelligence, you're gonna miss some good ones. That's not to say that they're dummies...they just didn't measure up to a particular standard.

One final comment. There is another bias with respect to intelligent kids and football. It's not talent--it's desire. An Ivy League head coach openly questioned my son's desire to play football. Why? Because my kid had among the highest combined academic score that they had recruited that season. If I was not a rookie in this process, I would have blasted the guy. There was nothing to indicate that my son had anything other than a fierce love for the game. He ended up playing through injuries, severe illness and ultimately ankle surgery. And he, like his Georgetown teammates, put in all the hours that every D-I kid puts in, but they did so knowing that they were much more likely to lose than win each week. Yeah, he liked football--but none of the LB clan liked that coach very much.

I'll back this up with personal experience:

I got into Penn and Columbia out of high school with a 90 average and a 1200 on my SATs.

No way I would have gotten in without football.

[colorless raider]

LFN, I love your site and love reading your posts, but if I read your comment correctly, you are not correct here. There is absolutely no question that Georgetown and the Ivys (the only places where I have experience) get kids in for football who would have not otherwise qualified. Your example of "academic lightweights" is hyperbole. Georgetown does not admit everyone that Kelly asks for. But Georgetown does admit people for Kelly who would not otherwise have had a chance without his endorsement. I cannot recite percentages, but I can cite extensive anecdotal evidence. I have related this story in prior years, but when LBKid visited Yale I asked the coach how many of the previous year's recruits would have been accepted without football. His estimate was two. I didn't check, but I suspect that they recruited a lot more than two kids that season.

I know it's not personal but when this topic comes up I always get the sense that people see an inverse relationship between intelligence and football talent. My guess is that this would be statistically true with respect to any physical skill. If you limit yourself to only the extremely bright people when searching for any skill, you will miss a bunch of otherwise talented people. This might be true among chefs, artists, musicians, etc. So if you can only choose football players with a certain level of intelligence, you're gonna miss some good ones. That's not to say that they're dummies...they just didn't measure up to a particular standard.

One final comment. There is another bias with respect to intelligent kids and football. It's not talent--it's desire. An Ivy League head coach openly questioned my son's desire to play football. Why? Because my kid had among the highest combined academic score that they had recruited that season. If I was not a rookie in this process, I would have blasted the guy. There was nothing to indicate that my son had anything other than a fierce love for the game. He ended up playing through injuries, severe illness and ultimately ankle surgery. And he, like his Georgetown teammates, put in all the hours that every D-I kid puts in, but they did so knowing that they were much more likely to lose than win each week. Yeah, he liked football--but none of the LB clan liked that coach very much.

And the LB clan likes the current coach??xeyebrowx