PFL vs. sub-Division I teams (2004-07)

[aceinthehole]

Since I know Flyer won't do it, here's some sad FACTS about how bad the PFL is in comparison to any other I-AA conference.
----

- As a conference, the PFL has a losing record (16-17) vs D-II teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Only Dayton and San Diego have not lost more than 1 game vs. a sub-D-I opponent in the past 4 seasons.

- Just 4 PFL teams have an overall winning record vs. sub-D-I opponents during this period.

PFL Record vs. Sub-D-I teams (2004-07)

PFL (49-27)
16-17 vs. D-II
18-4 vs D-III
15-6 vs NAIA

----
Butler (5-10)
2-6 vs D-II
3-3 vs D-III
0-1 vs. NAIA

Davidson (4-4)
3-4 vs D-II
10 vs D-III

Dayton (6-0)
3-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
1-0 vs NAIA

Drake (10-2)
2-0 vs D-II
3-1 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Jacksonville (3-3)
2-2 vs D-II
1-1 vs. NAIA

Morehead St (4-3)
3-3 vs D-II
1-0 vs NAIA

San Diego (8-1)
1-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Valparaiso (9-4)
0-2 vs D-II
7-0 vs D-III
2-2 vs NAIA

[TexasTerror]

The top of the league is taking care of business, the bottom is not. Until you guys are able to balance the books and improve your product, there's no reason for your conference to even attempt to get into the playoffs.

Simply put, the product is much more mediocre from the top to bottom than some of you (i.e DaytonFlyer) are willing to admit to...

[aceinthehole]

The top of the league is taking care of business, the bottom is not. Until you guys are able to balance the books and improve your product, there's no reason for your conference to even attempt to get into the playoffs.

Simply put, the product is much more mediocre from the top to bottom than some of you (i.e DaytonFlyer) are willing to admit to...

The top of the league????

Two teams (Dayton and USD) have showed they can consistantly beat lower divsion teams and beat Patroit and NEC teams.

The other teams aren't even close to competing at the FCS level.

As a league, the PFL has played 76 non-D-I games in 4 seasons.

Drake, Vapo, and Butler average 3 to 5 non-FCS games per season!

Dayton is better off as an Indy program so they can play better teams.

[danefan]

And before DetrotFlyer says Dayton beat Albany in the GIC.

We know. Whooped Albany's butt. Dayton is good. The rest of the PFL is not.

[appfan2008]

wow those are some absolutely terrible numbers!...

and dayton and usd fans wonder why they arent ranked or in the top 25... look at who you play!

[appfan2008]

with those numbers they might as well call themselves what they are... D2

[DetroitFlyer]

I seem to recall that middle of the pack PFL team Drake defeated ISU last season, at ISU....

In 2007, the PFL as a whole did very well against lower level teams. 2008 has started out kind of rough.... I have never stated that Butler, Valparaiso, Jacksonville, and now Campbell were good FCS teams. I do think that all of them are working to improve. Davidson has shown over the years that when they play a traditional FCS team they can be competitive. I seem to recall a loss at VMI when Davidson went for two after a TD for the win and did not convert. Lost by one! As I pointed out above, Drake defeated a Gateway team just last year. USD is simply a good team. Hard to send four players to NFL camps in 2007 and stink.... JJ and EBak both stuck. JJ in Tampa Bay, EBak on the Chargers practice squad.

Getting back to Butler, Valpo, and Campbell.... Of course Campbell is going to be playing lower division teams as a first year program.... Most conferences would not even take a Campbell in its first year.... Butler and Valpo have struggled recently. Playing three OOC games against traditional FCS teams and getting blown out, is a great way to kill the program BEFORE it has time to improve.... Winning a few games against Division II, III or NAIA teams while you are rebuilding retains fans and support for the program. It is simply the live to fight another day approach. Of course if you play lower division teams, there is always the chance that you lose....

JU has stepped up its OOC schedule recently as well under Kerwin Bell. I look for them to continue improving going forward.

I am not a fan of the PFL playing lower division teams, and I believe that the various schools will be playing fewer and fewer going forward. Still, a very good Dayton can defeat a Fordham and Albany, and still lose a conference game to a Morehead State. Any conference game has the potential to be a tough game, regardless of the team's records going in.... Virtually every FCS conference has an "upset" or two once conference play starts.... Year in and year out, whatever team wins the PFL is going to be on a par with ANY team in FCS!

[401ks]

with those numbers they might as well call themselves what they are... D2

Hmmm....

That is precisely what many (most?) Division I FBS fans think Division I FCS programs might as well call themselves. ;)

Just more of the same "We-May-Not-Be-FBS-But-At-Least-We're-Better-Than-THEM" garbage.

This thread belongs on the SMACK board. :p

[DetroitFlyer]

Since I know Flyer won't do it, here's some sad FACTS about how bad the PFL is in comparison to any other I-AA conference.
----

- As a conference, the PFL has a losing record (16-17) vs D-II teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Only Dayton and San Diego have not lost more than 1 game vs. a sub-D-I opponent in the past 4 seasons.

- Just 4 PFL teams have an overall winning record vs. sub-D-I opponents during this period.

PFL Record vs. Sub-D-I teams (2004-07)

PFL (49-27)
16-17 vs. D-II
18-4 vs D-III
15-6 vs NAIA

----
Butler (5-10)
2-6 vs D-II
3-3 vs D-III
0-1 vs. NAIA

Davidson (4-4)
3-4 vs D-II
10 vs D-III

Dayton (6-0)
3-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
1-0 vs NAIA

Drake (10-2)
2-0 vs D-II
3-1 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Jacksonville (3-3)
2-2 vs D-II
1-1 vs. NAIA

Morehead St (4-3)
3-3 vs D-II
1-0 vs NAIA

San Diego (8-1)
1-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Valparaiso (9-4)
0-2 vs D-II
7-0 vs D-III
2-2 vs NAIA

And yet, the "bad" PFL in your terminology, has been able to produce a champion that has EASILY defeated the NEC Champion the last two years in the Gridiron Classic....xlolx

I'm going to gather that you did not major in data analysis at your NEC school. You stated:

"- Half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons."

According to the "facts" you presented, only Butler, and I'll even do the counting for you, that is ONE team, has a losing record versus non-Division I teams.... As I recall, Butler won all of their sub-Division I games in 2007, there is that improving thing again....

[aceinthehole]

I seem to recall that middle of the pack PFL team Drake defeated ISU last season, at ISU....

In 2007, the PFL as a whole did very well against lower level teams. 2008 has started out kind of rough.... I have never stated that Butler, Valparaiso, Jacksonville, and now Campbell were good FCS teams. I do think that all of them are working to improve. Davidson has shown over the years that when they play a traditional FCS team they can be competitive. I seem to recall a loss at VMI when Davidson went for two after a TD for the win and did not convert. Lost by one! As I pointed out above, Drake defeated a Gateway team just last year. USD is simply a good team. Hard to send four players to NFL camps in 2007 and stink.... JJ and EBak both stuck. JJ in Tampa Bay, EBak on the Chargers practice squad.

Getting back to Butler, Valpo, and Campbell.... Of course Campbell is going to be playing lower division teams as a first year program.... Most conferences would not even take a Campbell in its first year.... Butler and Valpo have struggled recently. Playing three OOC games against traditional FCS teams and getting blown out, is a great way to kill the program BEFORE it has time to improve.... Winning a few games against Division II, III or NAIA teams while you are rebuilding retains fans and support for the program. It is simply the live to fight another day approach. Of course if you play lower division teams, there is always the chance that you lose....

JU has stepped up its OOC schedule recently as well under Kerwin Bell. I look for them to continue improving going forward.

I am not a fan of the PFL playing lower division teams, and I believe that the various schools will be playing fewer and fewer going forward. Still, a very good Dayton can defeat a Fordham and Albany, and still lose a conference game to a Morehead State. Any conference game has the potential to be a tough game, regardless of the team's records going in.... Virtually every FCS conference has an "upset" or two once conference play starts.... Year in and year out, whatever team wins the PFL is going to be on a par with ANY team in FCS!


First, this is about WINS. We are not talking about "good" or closes loses. Wins!

I did the Drake win in another thread. Drake has that single win. Dayton and USD are the only teams with MORE THAN ONE WIN vs. AQ-conference teams. Face it, one win is AGS, 2 or more wins is a trend.

Dayton and USD are both very good (and almost everyone here agrees with that). Just stop trying to defend the rest of the PFL. It makes you (and your team look bad).

For example, USD has dominated PFL (22-2) in the past 4 seasons. They also beat teams from the Big Sky (N. Colorado), Patriot (Holy Cross), Ivy (Yale),and NEC (Monmouth). That is a very good resume over the past 4 seasons.

Dayton hasn't even been as good as USD. In the past 4 years, Dayton has 1 win vs. the PL (Fordham), and is 4-0 vs. the NEC. The Flyers are 4-0 vs. sub-D-I teams, 0-1 vs. the Ivy and have 10 PFL losses compared to USD's 2 conference losses.

[Go...gate]

There's only one thing to do. Dayton should join the PL for football.

[UNI Pike]

I seem to recall that middle of the pack FL team Drake defeated ISU last season, at ISU....

Year in and year out, whatever team wins the PFL is going to be on a par with ANY team in FCS!

Drake beat a team that went 4-7 last year. Two wins against OVC teams and two wins against teams that should be in the OVC (YSU & IN ST). xoopsx

Come to the UNIDOME, FargoDome, App State or MT and win. Otherwise, shut your pie hole.

[aceinthehole]

There's only one thing to do. Dayton should join the PL for football.

If they weren't out on the West Coast, I'd take San Diego to the PL in a minute. However, I do think Dayton would fit well in the PL for football.

[DetroitFlyer]

There's only one thing to do. Dayton should join the PL for football.


Dayton does not have the academic profile to fit in the PL.... Both Dayton and USD are improving.... In the last US News & World Reports, I think USD was 104 and Dayton was 108 among "National Universities". Still, if you look at the SAT scores, percent admitted, etc. Dayton has a ways to go to be on a PL level.... Maybe someday....

I agree that Dayton would be an interesting PL team, but the geography is not exactly ideal.... Probably not a huge concern for Dayton already playing in the PFL, but I doubt that every PL team would want to travel to Dayton every other year.... Dayton would not be willing to join as an all sports member either.... The A10 is not a perfect fit currently, but Dayton seems to be firmly committed to the A10 for the time being....

I would like to see more Dayton / PL games. We used to play Holy Cross a good bit.... HC has spanked us over the years.... I sure would like a chance to get back some of those games.... Georgetown seems like another "natural". I have a sneaking suspicion that in both cases getting home and home series has been difficult. Dayton simply will not play one sided series. We did do a 2 for 1 with Fordham, but one sided is not going to fly. Heck any PL team would be a great series.

I know the PL wants to be the CAA, but the truth is that the PL, The Ivy League and the PFL would do well to play MANY more games against each other.

[crusader11]

I know the PL wants to be the CAA, but the truth is that the PL, The Ivy League and the PFL would do well to play MANY more games against each other.

Hmmmmm, play Butler or Valpo on a Saturday afternoon in the midwest, or try to raise the level of competition and play UMASS, UNH, or Richmond? I'd rather Holy Cross challenge themselves and compete agains the best, which we did against UMASS, than play a throw away game out in Indiana.

[Franks Tanks]

Dayton does not have the academic profile to fit in the PL.... Both Dayton and USD are improving.... In the last US News & World Reports, I think USD was 104 and Dayton was 108 among "National Universities". Still, if you look at the SAT scores, percent admitted, etc. Dayton has a ways to go to be on a PL level.... Maybe someday....

I agree that Dayton would be an interesting PL team, but the geography is not exactly ideal.... Probably not a huge concern for Dayton already playing in the PFL, but I doubt that every PL team would want to travel to Dayton every other year.... Dayton would not be willing to join as an all sports member either.... The A10 is not a perfect fit currently, but Dayton seems to be firmly committed to the A10 for the time being....

I would like to see more Dayton / PL games. We used to play Holy Cross a good bit.... HC has spanked us over the years.... I sure would like a chance to get back some of those games.... Georgetown seems like another "natural". I have a sneaking suspicion that in both cases getting home and home series has been difficult. Dayton simply will not play one sided series. We did do a 2 for 1 with Fordham, but one sided is not going to fly. Heck any PL team would be a great series.

I know the PL wants to be the CAA, but the truth is that the PL, The Ivy League and the PFL would do well to play MANY more games against each other.

Its virtually impossible for the PL and IVY to play more often. The PL isnt getting excited about playing a PFL team, and I highly doubt the Ivies would go for it. Many of the games may be competitive, but if were gonna travel halfway across the country it should be for a game that at least excites our fanbase.

[Go...gate]

Dayton does not have the academic profile to fit in the PL.... Both Dayton and USD are improving.... In the last US News & World Reports, I think USD was 104 and Dayton was 108 among "National Universities". Still, if you look at the SAT scores, percent admitted, etc. Dayton has a ways to go to be on a PL level.... Maybe someday....

I agree that Dayton would be an interesting PL team, but the geography is not exactly ideal.... Probably not a huge concern for Dayton already playing in the PFL, but I doubt that every PL team would want to travel to Dayton every other year.... Dayton would not be willing to join as an all sports member either.... The A10 is not a perfect fit currently, but Dayton seems to be firmly committed to the A10 for the time being....

I would like to see more Dayton / PL games. We used to play Holy Cross a good bit.... [/B] HC has spanked us over the years.... I sure would like a chance to get back some of those games.... Georgetown seems like another "natural". I have a sneaking suspicion that in both cases getting home and home series has been difficult. Dayton simply will not play one sided series. We did do a 2 for 1 with Fordham, but one sided is not going to fly. Heck any PL team would be a great series.

I know the PL wants to be the CAA, but the truth is that the PL, The Ivy League and the PFL would do well to play MANY more games against each other.

Flyer, I believe the late Rick Carter (who tragically took his own life), former HC at Holy Cross, was a successful head coach at Dayton who came to Holy Cross in 1981 and re-charged the football program after some up and down years. You might want to check your media guide to confirm if I am correct or just suffering my Tuesday senior moment.

[WileECoyote06]

Drake beat a team that went 4-7 last year. Two wins against OVC teams and two wins against teams that should be in the OVC (YSU & IN ST). xoopsx

Come to the UNIDOME, FargoDome, App State or MT and win. Otherwise, shut your pie hole.

Since probably 90% of FCS can't do that; I don't think that's a valid argument.

[DetroitFlyer]

Flyer, I believe the late Rick Carter (who tragically took his own life), former HC at Holy Cross, was a successful head coach at Dayton who came to Holy Cross in 1981 and re-charged the football program after some up and down years. You might want to check your media guide to confirm if I am correct or just suffering my Tuesday senior moment.


Good memory! Rick was the head coach at Dayton just before Mike Kelly. MK was actually one of Rick's assistants. Rick's passing is one of those things that is very hard to understand. He was successful at Dayton and he was enjoying success at Holy Cross as well. The world lost a great football coach far too early when that tragic event occurred. I think he coached at HC from 1981 to 1985. Rick took over the head coaching job at Dayton in 1977, Dayton's first year as a non-ATHLETIC scholarship program. In 1978, Dayton made the Division III playoffs for the first time. Current UD head coach Rick Chamberlin was an All American linebacker on that 1978 team. In 1980, Rick Carter and the Flyers went 14-0 and won the Division III National Championship! Mike Kelly took over in 1981 and Rick went to Holy Cross.

Dayton has not played Holy Cross since 1962. All time the Flyers are 1-9 against Holy Cross. All but one game was played at Holy Cross, (the 1962 game was played in Dayton and the Flyers lost 36-14. (I was 18 days old when that game took place, I can still remember the anguish I felt as the Flyers fell that day....xlolx ).

[Model Citizen]

Central Connecticut? Are they D-II?

[DetroitFlyer]

Since probably 90% of FCS can't do that; I don't think that's a valid argument.

IF we would have been invited to the playoffs last season, we probably would have come to the Dome. Frankly, you were all scared to death that Dayton would win or game or two and we were once again excluded so that you could have your usual cupcake to play in the first round!

[Franks Tanks]

IF we would have been invited to the playoffs last season, we probably would have come to the Dome. Frankly, you were all scared to death that Dayton would win or game or two and we were once again excluded so that you could have your usual cupcake to play in the first round!

Ya New Hampshire -- what a cupcake

[Keeper]

I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing an undefeated
Pioneer champion in the playoffs at least once,
just to see how they stack up. Sometimes, you
get a program that catches lightning, no matter
the competition. Unfortunately, strength of
schedules factors are likely to keep them away
from the party for a long time to come.

[Go...gate]

IMO, all conference champs should get an AQ. That includes the Pioneer. Let them get the chance to prove themselves on the field, not in some boardroom.

[TexasTerror]

That includes the Pioneer. Let them get the chance to prove themselves on the field, not in some boardroom.

The Pioneer has been proving themselves on the field since the formation of the league. Just read the initial post in this thread...

[Seahawks Fan]

IMO, all conference champs should get an AQ. That includes the Pioneer. Let them get the chance to prove themselves on the field, not in some boardroom.

I agree. xthumbsupx

[PantherRob82]

IF we would have been invited to the playoffs last season, we probably would have come to the Dome. Frankly, you were all scared to death that Dayton would win or game or two and we were once again excluded so that you could have your usual cupcake to play in the first round!

Come to the Dome then, cowards. We hit up the PFL for home games and get turned down. Drake won't even play us anymore.

[WildPard]

Agree with the last few posts. If Fordham wins the PL, that'll be two years in a row that the PFL defeated the PL champs. I don't care what the rest of the league looks like, if my best beats your best, it should count for something. If we're going to factor in strength of schedule and strength of conference, the SOCON and CAA should get 3 or 4 bids each and the PFL and PL would be left out completely.

[Syntax Error]

- Half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons

- Just 4 PFL teams have an overall winning record vs. sub-D-I opponents during this period

PFL Record vs. Sub-D-I teams (2004-07)
Butler (5-10)
Davidson (4-4)
Dayton (6-0)
Drake (10-2)
Jacksonville (3-3)
Morehead St (4-3)
San Diego (8-1)
Valparaiso (9-4)Thanks for the effort but based on what you posted, 50% of your assertions are incorrect.

1. One PFL team, not half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons.

2. Five PFL teams, not 4 PFL teams have an overall winning record vs. sub-D-I opponents during this period. Furthermore, two others have a .500 record against that group and as you should have corrected pointed out, just one has a losing record.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

IMO, all conference champs should get an AQ. That includes the Pioneer. Let them get the chance to prove themselves on the field, not in some boardroom.

With what has happened in this offseason, I think all the PFL needs to do is ask for an AQ. Why isn't the PFL doing that? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx I don't think the NCAA is obligated to give an AQ without a league requesting it. Without the request how do they know the PFL isn't like the Ivy League and not interested?

[danefan]

With what has happened in this offseason, I think all the PFL needs to do is ask for an AQ. Why isn't the PFL doing that? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx I don't think the NCAA is obligated to give an AQ without a league requesting it. Without the request how do they know the PFL isn't like the Ivy League and not interested?

Because they have a commissioner that is the commissioner for another league in the same division. I don't care if she is a good person or tries her hardest. There is an inherent conflict of interest there.

And I know the league Presidents hired her, but they need to get their heads checked too.

If the PFL got an auto-bid, the league would get better as a whole. You bet your butt the PFL would steal away even more recruits from teh Ivy and PL then they do now. The PFL and Ivy has the same student aid program. Some kids really want to play in the post season.

[Go...gate]

The Pioneer has been proving themselves on the field since the formation of the league. Just read the initial post in this thread...

Not everything happens overnight.

[USDFAN_55]

And the NEC is so great, isn't it? Why was this thread even started? The NEC fans are still trying to give this illusion that they are way better than the PFL, but is actuality the leagues are pretty equal. Actually the PFL's best has beaten the NEC's best two years in a row now, so I think the PFL has bragging rights as being better. I don't care about the rest of the teams in the leagues. When each leagues best go head to head, the winning team's league claims bragging rights. I know some of your teams have started to schedule really tough teams (i.e. Albany), but the victories haven't come yet. And please take a look at teams in your own league when trying to illustrate poor OOC games.


Since I know Flyer won't do it, here's some sad FACTS about how bad the PFL is in comparison to any other I-AA conference.
----

- As a conference, the PFL has a losing record (16-17) vs D-II teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Half of the PFL has had an overall losing record vs. sub-D-I teams in the past 4 seasons.

- Only Dayton and San Diego have not lost more than 1 game vs. a sub-D-I opponent in the past 4 seasons.

- Just 4 PFL teams have an overall winning record vs. sub-D-I opponents during this period.

PFL Record vs. Sub-D-I teams (2004-07)

PFL (49-27)
16-17 vs. D-II
18-4 vs D-III
15-6 vs NAIA

----
Butler (5-10)
2-6 vs D-II
3-3 vs D-III
0-1 vs. NAIA

Davidson (4-4)
3-4 vs D-II
10 vs D-III

Dayton (6-0)
3-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
1-0 vs NAIA

Drake (10-2)
2-0 vs D-II
3-1 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Jacksonville (3-3)
2-2 vs D-II
1-1 vs. NAIA

Morehead St (4-3)
3-3 vs D-II
1-0 vs NAIA

San Diego (8-1)
1-0 vs D-II
2-0 vs D-III
5-1 vs NAIA

Valparaiso (9-4)
0-2 vs D-II
7-0 vs D-III
2-2 vs NAIA

[TheValleyRaider]

Because they have a commissioner that is the commissioner for another league in the same division. I don't care if she is a good person or tries her hardest. There is an inherent conflict of interest there.

And I know the league Presidents hired her, but they need to get their heads checked too.

It does seem like it would be a conflict of interest, but remember that it was the Presidents of the Pioneer schools that hired her, and she does their bidding. I highly doubt she's going to each Pioneer school and saying "No, you really don't want to be in the playoffs. These are not the droids your looking for" xtwocentsx