Samford finished with the OVC

[Cocky]

Tenn Tech eliminated Samford in Baseball today. This I believe was the last official OVC participated event of Samford's. Our average football power rating will be headed upward now.

http://www.ovcsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=6200&ATCLID=1473822

[OL FU]

Congratulations to Samford on their graduation. xnodx


Welcome to the Big Leaguesxsmiley_wix

Sorry Cocky, I could not resist:o

[citdog]

Welcome Samford!










NOW RACK IN YOUR DAMN CHIN SOCON KNOBS!

[ButlerGSU]

I am so excited about Samford joining the SoCon, as I am certain all the other public SoCon schools are.







xrolleyesx

[citdog]

I am so excited about Samford joining the SoCon, as I am certain all the other public SoCon schools are.







xrolleyesx


AREN'T YOU IN THE SUN BELT ALREADY?

[EKU05]

Tenn Tech eliminated Samford in Baseball today. This I believe was the last official OVC participated event of Samford's. Our average football power rating will be headed upward now.

http://www.ovcsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=6200&ATCLID=1473822


I thought it was nice to have that one token private school in the league. For what it's worth 3 out of 6 BCS conferences have exactly one private member (Big 10, SEC, Pac-10). Still, outside of good baseball and women's soccer the Bulldogs weren't exactly setting the Valley on fire. My guess is they'll be replaced with one or two non-football playing private schools in the not-so-distant future.

[jcf5445]

I thought it was nice to have that one token private school in the league. For what it's worth 3 out of 6 BCS conferences have exactly one private member (Big 10, SEC, Pac-10). Still, outside of good baseball and women's soccer the Bulldogs weren't exactly setting the Valley on fire. My guess is they'll be replaced with one or two non-football playing private schools in the not-so-distant future.

I think you meant Big-12 (Baylor), not Pac-10 (Stanford, Southern Cal)

[Eyes of Old Main]

Our average football power rating will be headed upward now.

Why don't you guys collectively win some playoff games before you suggest anything that bold?

[Jiggs]

Thank you, OVC.

Thank you, SoCon.xthumbsupx

[EKU05]

I think you meant Big-12 (Baylor), not Pac-10 (Stanford, Southern Cal)

You are correct. My bad.

[Herdman]

I thought it was nice to have that one token private school in the league. For what it's worth 3 out of 6 BCS conferences have exactly one private member (Big 10, SEC, Pac-10). Still, outside of good baseball and women's soccer the Bulldogs weren't exactly setting the Valley on fire. My guess is they'll be replaced with one or two non-football playing private schools in the not-so-distant future.I think the OVC should go after Western Illinois. They be a great addition. I also think you should start whispering in the ears of the folks at Grand Valley State University about moving up from D2.

[gophoenix]

I am so excited about Samford joining the SoCon, as I am certain all the other public SoCon schools are.







xrolleyesx

Woohoo, another elitist public school comment.

I just glanced over the Commish cup standings, and I am having trouble figuring out how the private schools are dragging the conference down like "everyone" whines about.

[Eyes of Old Main]

...like "everyone" whines about.

Consider the sources.

[CID1990]

Welcome to the SoCon.

Don't mind the FBS wannabes.

The SoCon will bring your level of football play up, and then you can schedule those OVC teams OOC in a few years and whip their asses.

[SoCon48]

Woohoo, another elitist public school comment.

I just glanced over the Commish cup standings, and I am having trouble figuring out how the private schools are dragging the conference down like "everyone" whines about.


The SoCon does a good job of rehabbing new members in 4 or 5 years.

[Golden Eagle]

Good luck, Samford. My one regret is that I never got to attend a game at your stadium, I have heard it is a good one.

Well, maybe we'll play again sometime. Hope so.

[mizzoufan1]

I thought it was nice to have that one token private school in the league. For what it's worth 3 out of 6 BCS conferences have exactly one private member (Big 10, SEC, Pac-10). Still, outside of good baseball and women's soccer the Bulldogs weren't exactly setting the Valley on fire. My guess is they'll be replaced with one or two non-football playing private schools in the not-so-distant future.

The Big 12 has exactly one private school too...Baylor.

[SideLine Shooter]

AREN'T YOU IN THE SUN BELT ALREADY?

He wishes....xlolx xlolx xlolx

[IndianaAppMan]

Woohoo, another elitist public school comment.

I just glanced over the Commish cup standings, and I am having trouble figuring out how the private schools are dragging the conference down like "everyone" whines about.

Elitist public school? Are you kidding me? Don't get me wrong: one of my closest friends went to Furman and my wife graduated from Elon:) , so I can assure you I respect both universities greatly. That said, I can assure you that it is the private schools who have the elitist mindset in the SoCon. For starters, there's the $25,000xeekx or more tuition with 18-year-olds driving brand-new BMW's at the private schools far more than the public ones. For the Commish Cup Standings, App State has won 17 of the past 20; ETSU (public), Chattanooga (public), & Furman won the other 3.

Samford seems questionable as a new member because it's the third straight new football member to be both private and coming from a losing tradition or Division II. Consider this: Is the SoCon really stronger with Wofford, Elon, and Samford than it was with Marshall, VMI, and ETSU? That's debatable. But I want to know why Samford was chosen over another public school, Coastal Carolina, which has actually made the playoffs in recent years. I cannot help but wonder if some tension will arise as four very, very similar colleges (Samford, Furman, Wofford, and Elon, not to mention Davidson) have such different mindsets and goals from App State, Ga. Southern, The Citadel, & UTC.

[citdog]

Elitist public school? Are you kidding me? Don't get me wrong: one of my closest friends went to Furman and my wife graduated from Elon:) , so I can assure you I respect both universities greatly. That said, I can assure you that it is the private schools who have the elitist mindset in the SoCon. For starters, there's the $25,000xeekx or more tuition with 18-year-olds driving brand-new BMW's at the private schools far more than the public ones. For the Commish Cup Standings, App State has won 17 of the past 20; ETSU (public), Chattanooga (public), & Furman won the other 3.

Samford seems questionable as a new member because it's the third straight new football member to be both private and coming from a losing tradition or Division II. Consider this: Is the SoCon really stronger with Wofford, Elon, and Samford than it was with Marshall, VMI, and ETSU? That's debatable. But I want to know why Samford was chosen over another public school, Coastal Carolina, which has actually made the playoffs in recent years. I cannot help but wonder if some tension will arise as four very, very similar colleges (Samford, Furman, Wofford, and Elon, not to mention Davidson) have such different mindsets and goals from App State, Ga. Southern, The Citadel, & UTC.



i hate to tell you this Indiana but The Citadel has much more in common with Elon, Wofford, Samford, and Vermin than we do with Appy, Eaglets from Pig's Ass, and UTC.

[IndianaAppMan]

i hate to tell you this Indiana but The Citadel has much more in common with Elon, Wofford, Samford, and Vermin than we do with Appy, Eaglets from Pig's Ass, and UTC.

At first glance, I can understand why you'd say that, but then again, The Citadel is in a kind of category unto its own. Yes, it's definitely different from other state-supported schools in the SoCon, but I still don't see a lot of commonalities with the private schools. Here's a couple of examples: The Citadel is almost all guys (last I checked), whereas Elon and Furman are chick-dominated. I don't know the male-female ratios at the other schools. At Furman, freshman are greeted with the beautiful lake and view of Paris Mountain and they move on to grad school or a career in music. At The Citadel, freshmen, er, uh, KNOBS, are hazed for a year, required to have shaven heads (and much more I don't know about), and they likely move on to serve us in the armed forces. Only VMI & the service academies are anything like The Citadel.

[Sir William]

Is the SoCon really stronger with Wofford, Elon, and Samford than it was with Marshall, VMI, and ETSU?

The SoCon is overall much, much stronger with the losses of VMI and ETSU, and the additions of Wofford and Elon.

Not elitest...just the facts.

[Jerbearasu]

But I want to know why Samford was chosen over another public school, Coastal Carolina, which has actually made the playoffs in recent years.

Travel partner for UTC... The question is how did Elon get chosen over CCU and that answer is because the SoCon is becoming more of a private school conference. IMO, the balance of the SoCon was the best before the departure of VMI... I loved having 2 military academies and a good mix of private and public schools. Since VMI departed we also lost ETSU and added 2 privates.
I personnally would have liked to see UTC go to the OVC and grab Georgia State and CCU. I think that would have been substantially better.

[CID1990]

Travel partner for UTC... The question is how did Elon get chosen over CCU and that answer is because the SoCon is becoming more of a private school conference. IMO, the balance of the SoCon was the best before the departure of VMI... I loved having 2 military academies and a good mix of private and public schools. Since VMI departed we also lost ETSU and added 2 privates.
I personnally would have liked to see UTC go to the OVC and grab Georgia State and CCU. I think that would have been substantially better.

Elon was chosen over CCU because CCU can't carry Elon's jock in either academics or YES, athletics. Elon has a rich tradition in both.

[Millwoch]

Tenn Tech eliminated Samford in Baseball today. This I believe was the last official OVC participated event of Samford's. Our average football power rating will be headed upward now.

http://www.ovcsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=6200&ATCLID=1473822


Welcome to the Socon. I'll be making the trip to Birmingham this fall. Can't wait.

[Millwoch]

At first glance, I can understand why you'd say that, but then again, The Citadel is in a kind of category unto its own. Yes, it's definitely different from other state-supported schools in the SoCon, but I still don't see a lot of commonalities with the private schools. Here's a couple of examples: The Citadel is almost all guys (last I checked), whereas Elon and Furman are chick-dominated. I don't know the male-female ratios at the other schools. At Furman, freshman are greeted with the beautiful lake and view of Paris Mountain and they move on to grad school or a career in music. At The Citadel, freshmen, er, uh, KNOBS, are hazed for a year, required to have shaven heads (and much more I don't know about), and they likely move on to serve us in the armed forces. Only VMI & the service academies are anything like The Citadel.

Yeah what he said...no one from El Cid furthers their education. That is reserved for those elite private school types xeyebrowx. And no one from FU or Woffy have every served our country...What an insult to all schools above. The real simularity is Woffy, Elon, Fu and El cid are similar in size, budgets, and also graduate over 90-95% of their football players and other athletes. The 2007 6-year Graduation Success Rates for the above schools are as follows FU 97, Woffy 90, El Cid 91, Appy 67, GSU 61. Who would you say we are most similar to?

El Cid and VMI are nothing like the academies. Just because we all wear a uniform and march to breakfast does not mean we are similar. The academies are much bigger schools with a different mission and unlimited budget and resources. We are better than the academies in most sports anyway.

[Saint3333]

Elon was chosen over CCU because CCU can't carry Elon's jock in either academics or YES, athletics. Elon has a rich tradition in both.

That seems to be an quite an overstatement. CCU would've beaten Elon in football and baseball in 4 of the last 5 years. CCU academics would be in the bottom of the conference though.

For the record CCU would not have been my choice, JSU would have been.

[Saint3333]

The SoCon is overall much, much stronger with the losses of VMI and ETSU, and the additions of Wofford and Elon.

Not elitest...just the facts.

VMI was awful, but ETSU had one of the best basketball programs and quality olympic sports (golf and tennis) as well. ETSU was good for UTC and ASU. I'd trade ETSU with football minus the mini-dome for WC or Elon.

[Saint3333]

We are better than the academies in most sports anyway.

Football
Sorry but 20 extra scholarships and Army, Navy, and Air Force are better than you.

Basketball RPI
Air Force - 173
Army - 212
Navy - 214
you- 334

Baseball RPI
you- 143
Army - 185
Navy - 189
Air Force -271

You guys are better than the academies in one of the three big sports.

[FUPaladin63]

Samford is a good addition to the SoCon. I have visited the beautiful campus and seen the football stadium once. Welcome to Samford!

[EKU05]

The Big 12 has exactly one private school too...Baylor.

Yeah, I actually meant to say Big 12 instead of Pac 10. As someone already pointed out the Pac 10 has two (Stanford and USC).

[SoCon48]

The SoCon is overall much, much stronger with the losses of VMI and ETSU, and the additions of Wofford and Elon.

Not elitest...just the facts.

Facts? Very debateable as it depends on the era and sport. ETSU has had great football and basketball at times. They were the last prior to Davidson to make a noise in the NCAA basketball play-offs. ETSU is still among the tops in all time draws at App and some other schools in football. Wofford is far from that. VMI with Ronnie Carter lit up the SoCon (Wofford is still far from achieving that) and had the premier wrestling program and always good in T&F. Also had some conference titles in football.
Woff is good in some sports and perenuially sucks in others. Elon is just now starting to compete in many of their sports.

It's basically a wash at best.

[SoCon48]

Elitist public school? Are you kidding me? Don't get me wrong: one of my closest friends went to Furman and my wife graduated from Elon:) , so I can assure you I respect both universities greatly. That said, I can assure you that it is the private schools who have the elitist mindset in the SoCon. For starters, there's the $25,000xeekx or more tuition with 18-year-olds driving brand-new BMW's at the private schools far more than the public ones. For the Commish Cup Standings, App State has won 17 of the past 20; ETSU (public), Chattanooga (public), & Furman won the other 3.

Samford seems questionable as a new member because it's the third straight new football member to be both private and coming from a losing tradition or Division II. Consider this: Is the SoCon really stronger with Wofford, Elon, and Samford than it was with Marshall, VMI, and ETSU? That's debatable. But I want to know why Samford was chosen over another public school, Coastal Carolina, which has actually made the playoffs in recent years. I cannot help but wonder if some tension will arise as four very, very similar colleges (Samford, Furman, Wofford, and Elon, not to mention Davidson) have such different mindsets and goals from App State, Ga. Southern, The Citadel, & UTC.

That said, I can assure you that it is the private schools who have the elitist mindset in the SoCon

Amen to that, bro!

[SoCon48]

i hate to tell you this Indiana but The Citadel has much more in common with Elon, Wofford, Samford, and Vermin than we do with Appy, Eaglets from Pig's Ass, and UTC.

i hate to tell you this Indiana but The Citadel has much more in common with Elon, Wofford, Samford, and Vermin than we do with Appy, Eaglets from Pig's Ass, and UTC.

Can't say that I agree, but if I did and was a Citdoggie, I'd sure as hell keep it quiet! You left out Samford, BTW.xoopsx

[gophoenix]

That seems to be an quite an overstatement. CCU would've beaten Elon in football and baseball in 4 of the last 5 years. CCU academics would be in the bottom of the conference though.

For the record CCU would not have been my choice, JSU would have been.

xrolleyesx

Considering we won the baseball series with them 3 of those 5 years and went 1-1 in football even when we didn't play them last year. Yeah, uhm, you're wrong.

xrolleyesx

[gophoenix]

Elitist public school? Are you kidding me?

If you go re-read my post, you see I am talking about an elitist comment, not mentality of a school.


Don't get me wrong: one of my closest friends went to Furman and my wife graduated from Elon:) , so I can assure you I respect both universities greatly. That said, I can assure you that it is the private schools who have the elitist mindset in the SoCon. For starters, there's the $25,000xeekx or more tuition with 18-year-olds driving brand-new BMW's at the private schools far more than the public ones. For the Commish Cup Standings, App State has won 17 of the past 20; ETSU (public), Chattanooga (public), & Furman won the other 3.

You guys really amaze me. I mean, completely. The narrow site and mindset really just throws me over the edge.

So let me get this straight, again. Tuition is expensive because that is the expense of college when taxpayers don't subsidize your education. Sure it is expensive, but guess what, many people don't expect the government to give you a free ride and actually work for scholarships and get loans to work and pay off our educational opportunities. So, I don't see where the expense of private school enters into being elitist.

After all, I paid for my schooling. You expected ME to help YOU with yours.

xrolleyesx
I love how some public school people pull out the "kind of car you drive" argument. It wreaks of envy.

Yes some people drive new cars. Some are even new BMWs, Mercedes, Audis. But guess what, I had friends that went to App, and there are rich kids with new cars there too. In fact, in 1993 when I started at Elon. I had a 20 year old Volkswagen and a girl I was dating at App was driving a 1993 Porsche.
xrolleyesx


Samford seems questionable as a new member because it's the third straight new football member to be both private and coming from a losing tradition or Division II. Consider this: Is the SoCon really stronger with Wofford, Elon, and Samford than it was with Marshall, VMI, and ETSU? That's debatable. But I want to know why Samford was chosen over another public school, Coastal Carolina, which has actually made the playoffs in recent years. I cannot help but wonder if some tension will arise as four very, very similar colleges (Samford, Furman, Wofford, and Elon, not to mention Davidson) have such different mindsets and goals from App State, Ga. Southern, The Citadel, & UTC.

1) UTC came from D-II
2) App and Western came from NAIA. Won a number a bowl games.
3) Elon came from D-I and lost the 3 previous years. Two time NAIA national Champs
4) Wofford came from D-II
5) Samford from D-I, won the D-III championship.
6) GSU was an established winning programin in I-AA
7) Marshall came from D-I, but was NOT a winning program

There's your last SoCon selections. Outside of GSU, I see a trend. And it is no different than the trend you see now. xrolleyesx But, when it comes to "tradition," I see historically that App, Elon and Samford are the ones that won the big games before they came here.

Is the SoCon stronger with Elon, Wofford and Samford than with ETSU, Marshall and VMI? Overall, yes. Football yes, basketball no, women's basketball yes, baseball yes, men's soccer yes, softball yes, M&W tennis yes, women's soccer yes. RPIs show this.

Samford chosen over public because Samford was ready now. Coastal had problems with Wofford, Furman, CofC and The Citadel. Coastal will be here in two years with another public school member (the choice will be obvious) when we go to 14 teams. So, you'll get your wish anyway.

Boy oh boy, I love when a new poster tries to jump in a 10 year old argument.

[AppMan]

Tenn Tech eliminated Samford in Baseball today. This I believe was the last official OVC participated event of Samford's. Our average football power rating will be headed upward now.

http://www.ovcsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=6200&ATCLID=1473822

Please take 'em back!

[AppMan]

1) UTC came from D-II
2) App and Western came from NAIA. Won a number a bowl games.
3) Elon came from D-I and lost the 3 previous years. Two time NAIA national Champs
4) Wofford came from D-II
5) Samford from D-I, won the D-III championship.
6) GSU was an established winning programin in I-AA
7) Marshall came from D-I, but was NOT a winning program



The arguement is over the recent trend of adding new members, not what happened 30+ years ago.

[Saint3333]

xrolleyesx

Considering we won the baseball series with them 3 of those 5 years and went 1-1 in football even when we didn't play them last year. Yeah, uhm, you're wrong.

xrolleyesx

Really you won a baseball series wow guess you were the better team those season. ASU beat Elon this year would you say ASU was better than Elon this year?

Baseball RPI
CCU - 6, 13, 101, 21, 47
Elon - 38, 88, 28, 73, 88

CCU had the better season 4 out of 5 years

Football
Elon was terrible 2003-2005 and CCU obviously had better seasons. CCU also had a better season than Elon in 2006, not sure how you beat them in the first game of the season. One team improved that year, one didn't.

Imagine if CCU had the advantage of recruiting in the SoCon. Again CCU wouldn't have been my choice, but over the last 5 years CCU athletics are more impressive than Elon's.

[terrierbob]

My stepdaughter is going to GA's state funded liberal arts college, Georgia College in Milledgeville. The student-instructor ratio, the beautiful campus, and the "feel" of the school is much more private college than state supported. I know they're not Div. I, but a visitor would have a hard time concluding anything other than it's more like Samford, Millsaps, Wofford, Furman, etc. than the other public colleges and state universities. It's not an elitist decision to attend a private school. It's largely a matter of that vague, imprecise idea of a good "fit".

I knew more "frats" than other students at WC, but many from modest means were on full scholarships or on a combination of scholarships and loans. (They usually studied their ass off and landed in med or law school).

The rich kid driving a new BMW was the exception. We had two guys in our frat that fit that description out of twenty-thirty. I'm sure there were more in KA and SAE, but my brother, father, great grandfather, and ex father-in-law were KAs and none were wealthy, so maybe that's a stereotype as well.

[IndianaAppMan]

Wow, I never realized that my comments would make so many people so angry. That was not the intent. The whole intent was to point out that some SoCon schools are different, not to suggest inferiority or superiority. My apologies for making that point poorly.

All right, I'll try to give an answer to many of the points that have been raised.

First, my point was that the combination of Wofford, Elon, and Samford is not necessarily a better athletic combo than Marshall, ETSU, and VMI. Sure, if you take Marshall out of the equation, then Elon & Wofford are a better combo than ETSU & VMI, but that was not my point. Even so, I did say that it is debatable.

Second, in no way was I implying that grads from The Citadel don't further their education. Heck, I don't know the stats, but I'm sure there's a high percentage who do. And I never said that Furman or other schools don't have students go on to join the military, either. Millwoch, please don't put words in my mouth. My point was to commend Furman for having such a high percentage of students who go on to earn Master's or doctorates as well as to commend The Citadel for its graduates' service to our country. I've been to both campuses, albeit as a visitor, but the atmosphere of The Citadel is distinctly differently from any other school in the SoCon. That's an observation, not an insult. I don't know how that should have been taken offensively to anyone.

Third, I'm well aware that state schools have tuition that is partially paid by the state. I have no problem with that as it affirms the notion that our country wants higher education accessible to as many people as possible. Scholarships are not available to everybody, and going into $80,000 debt is not always wise when a less expensive yet still quality education is available. By the way, the cost of Furman & Elon is still more than the cost of out-of-state tuition for App State. Again, it's just pointing out that App State, UTC, Ga. Southern, and W. Carolina (as well as UNC-G & CofC, for that matter) are going to have very different philosophies from all the private universities and from The Citadel.

Fourth, I regret mentioning the BMW comment. Again, my point was to point out that the state schools consist largely of students with different backgrounds from those of the SoCon's private schools, and that The Citadel has a different composition from both.

It's clear there's tension between public schools & private schools in the SoCon. I cannot help but wonder if that is, to a small degree, what leads Ga. Southern to consider leaving for FBS and if the same will happen for App State.

[IndianaAppMan]

Just noticed that fans of Wofford, App State, GSU, & The Citadel are all excited for Elon's baseball team in the NCAA's. That includes me. Again, no personal attack was intented towards private schools.

My concern is that the consistent replacement of public schools with private schools may lead to division between the longtime public members of the SoCon and the private school members. That's nothing against Samford or Elon.

[Jerbearasu]

My concern is that the consistent replacement of public schools with private schools may lead to division between the longtime public members of the SoCon and the private school members. That's nothing against Samford or Elon.

It's not just the addition of more private schools that heat this debate for me. Our own commish got in the papers back in March just to say that what Davidson was doing was a bigger accomplishment than App beating Michigan and winning a 3rd NC... I am sorry but even if he had felt that there was no justification of him saying that. It shows the mentality that the small privates are just more important to the league at this time... I like every other SoCon member LOVED what Davidson did in the tourney just like all FCS fans were pumped when App beat Michigan but he pretty much took a jab at another school's accomplishment for no apparent reason. Why he even had to try and compare the two is beyond me...

[CID1990]

Really you won a baseball series wow guess you were the better team those season. ASU beat Elon this year would you say ASU was better than Elon this year?

Baseball RPI
CCU - 6, 13, 101, 21, 47
Elon - 38, 88, 28, 73, 88

CCU had the better season 4 out of 5 years

Football
Elon was terrible 2003-2005 and CCU obviously had better seasons. CCU also had a better season than Elon in 2006, not sure how you beat them in the first game of the season. One team improved that year, one didn't.

Imagine if CCU had the advantage of recruiting in the SoCon. Again CCU wouldn't have been my choice, but over the last 5 years CCU athletics are more impressive than Elon's.

Using the last five years as an example of why we should have brought CCU in instead of Elon is moot. Even if it were undebatable that CCU had a better athletic program over that time, it wouldn't matter, because Elon has already been in the SoCon almost that whole amount of time. To have chosen otherwise based on the past five years' performance would have required a crystal ball.

Elon's performance last year and this year are probably better indicators of what being in the SoCon can do for a school. CCU doesn't come close. You can point to RPI all you want, but the proof's in the pudding, and CCU didn't stack up last year in any of the big three sports against Elon. They won't stack up this year, either, and don't say baseball, because it is arguable that Elon has the better team right now.

Also, being in the SoCon would not appreciably improve CCU's recruiting. They would still be competing against exactly the same schools that they do now. Plus, their football success is not sustainable (as we saw this year) when you live and die by the types of players they accept.

[Franks Tanks]

Yeah what he said...no one from El Cid furthers their education. That is reserved for those elite private school types xeyebrowx. And no one from FU or Woffy have every served our country...What an insult to all schools above. The real simularity is Woffy, Elon, Fu and El cid are similar in size, budgets, and also graduate over 90-95% of their football players and other athletes. The 2007 6-year Graduation Success Rates for the above schools are as follows FU 97, Woffy 90, El Cid 91, Appy 67, GSU 61. Who would you say we are most similar to?

El Cid and VMI are nothing like the academies. Just because we all wear a uniform and march to breakfast does not mean we are similar. The academies are much bigger schools with a different mission and unlimited budget and resources. We are better than the academies in most sports anyway.

That is not true, except maybe baseball at The Citadel, and also due to your lax admission standards.

[gophoenix]

Third, I'm well aware that state schools have tuition that is partially paid by the state. I have no problem with that as it affirms the notion that our country wants higher education accessible to as many people as possible. Scholarships are not available to everybody, and going into $80,000 debt is not always wise when a less expensive yet still quality education is available. By the way, the cost of Furman & Elon is still more than the cost of out-of-state tuition for App State. Again, it's just pointing out that App State, UTC, Ga. Southern, and W. Carolina (as well as UNC-G & CofC, for that matter) are going to have very different philosophies from all the private universities and from The Citadel.

Just a few comments about this. Out-of-state tuition at public schools is still tax-payer subsidized for students living out of the state. It does not remotely come close to covering the cost of the education.

Another point is that scholarships are available to everybody depending on qualifications. Many are geared to specific groups, minorities, certain grades, certain locations, etc. You qualify, you have as much of a shot as anyone else. And many are provided outside of the school, like one of mine given by a company in Greensboro to a college student in Guilford County.

The point is, if you want me to subsidize your education through taxing me, then who is being elitist? Me, who paid for my school through hard work and loans that I paid off after school? Or you, the person that I am forced to sub subsidize through taxation while paying for my own education independently? All the while, you used some of my money for your education, and are sitting here telling me I am elitist for working my education off and earning it 100% rather than the cheaper socialized option????

My point is, I am tired of reading the "elistist private school" crap. I grew up middle class. I worked my tail off in school. I applied for as many scholarships as I could find. I got scholarships and loans that applied to schools like Elon. I drove a crappy old car. Many people I knew at Elon did too. And most of us are on scholarships and loans.

So I ask, who is elitist? The ones at Elon and other private schools? Or the ones hurling this type of judgment at every turn?

So, overall, how are philosophies of the SoCon public, private and military schools different?


Fourth, I regret mentioning the BMW comment. Again, my point was to point out that the state schools consist largely of students with different backgrounds from those of the SoCon's private schools, and that The Citadel has a different composition from both.

Different backgrounds huh? Care to explain? The only thing I see that is different is that App/WCU students are primarily from NC. GSU students are primarily from Georgia. UTC students are primarily from Tennessee. They can be rich. They can be middle class. It doesn't matter as long as they can pay the cheap rates.

Where Samford/Furman students are primarily from the Southeast. Elon students are primarily NC, the midwest and Northeast. And they have to come up with ways to pay those higher rates.

Other than that.... what?


It's clear there's tension between public schools & private schools in the SoCon. I cannot help but wonder if that is, to a small degree, what leads Ga. Southern to consider leaving for FBS and if the same will happen for App State.

No. It's clear there is tension from certain fans of public schools when it comes to private schools. You don't see any private school fans making derogatory comments about public schools constantly. And this has no bearing on what the administrations think of each other as all our admins work closely together and help each other out. After all, Samford was a unanimous pick.

The private school thing is only a scape goat. It's not about private schools because you hear App and GSU fans making these same complaints about Coastal, Georgia State and Kennesaw St. App and GSU (not public schools) have a problem with image and how their fans feel they are perceived....

[gophoenix]

The arguement is over the recent trend of adding new members, not what happened 30+ years ago.

Your darn right it is about what happened 30+ years ago, and now. You guys love to talk the "trend" and the "footprint" now. You guys love to act like this is all new. But let's take a closer look.

1) East Carolina - NAIA moveup
2) App - NAIA moveup
3) Western Carolina - NAIA moveup
4) UTC - D-II moveup
5) ETSU - D-II moveup
6) Marshall - established but sucky D-I team
7) GSU - established and very much a winning I-AA football team
8) Wofford - D-II moveup
9) Elon - 5 year I-AA program with 3 bad years leading in, otherwise a D-II moveup
10) Samford - established I-AA team that has been sluggish lately

So yes, AppMan. Tell me how the recent trend differs from that trend in the 1970s. In the 1970s, I see 4 public schools added that were MOVEUPS. In the past, well, 20 years after that, I see only two moveups with Elon and Wofford.

So, uhm, the SoCon trend now is far less drastic than it was in the 1970s when so many public, moveup schools were added that a handful of the SoCon schools (like Richmond and William & Mary) left.

In fact, since the 1960s, the SoCon has only admitted 1 school with a winning, proven football tradition inside the division. And that is Georgia Southern.

[gophoenix]

It's not just the addition of more private schools that heat this debate for me. Our own commish got in the papers back in March just to say that what Davidson was doing was a bigger accomplishment than App beating Michigan and winning a 3rd NC... I am sorry but even if he had felt that there was no justification of him saying that. It shows the mentality that the small privates are just more important to the league at this time... I like every other SoCon member LOVED what Davidson did in the tourney just like all FCS fans were pumped when App beat Michigan but he pretty much took a jab at another school's accomplishment for no apparent reason. Why he even had to try and compare the two is beyond me...

And right here, the truth comes out. The conspiracy of the SoCon against the public schools, App in particular. But your quote is wrong.

Here's the comment:
"If Davidson makes the Final Four, this is bigger than Appalachian State," says Southern Conference commissioner John Iamarino. "And that was the biggest story in the country. It's right up there with it now."

Why is this wrong?

[Saint3333]

Using the last five years as an example of why we should have brought CCU in instead of Elon is moot. Even if it were undebatable that CCU had a better athletic program over that time, it wouldn't matter, because Elon has already been in the SoCon almost that whole amount of time. To have chosen otherwise based on the past five years' performance would have required a crystal ball.

Elon's performance last year and this year are probably better indicators of what being in the SoCon can do for a school. CCU doesn't come close. You can point to RPI all you want, but the proof's in the pudding, and CCU didn't stack up last year in any of the big three sports against Elon. They won't stack up this year, either, and don't say baseball, because it is arguable that Elon has the better team right now.

Also, being in the SoCon would not appreciably improve CCU's recruiting. They would still be competing against exactly the same schools that they do now. Plus, their football success is not sustainable (as we saw this year) when you live and die by the types of players they accept.


My post is not about CCU or Elon who would I rather have. I've never said CCU was my first choice. The point was to GP's comment that Elon was better the last five years, which they weren't in baseball and football success.

[Saint3333]

Your darn right it is about what happened 30+ years ago, and now. You guys love to talk the "trend" and the "footprint" now. You guys love to act like this is all new. But let's take a closer look.

1) East Carolina - NAIA moveup
2) App - NAIA moveup
3) Western Carolina - NAIA moveup
4) UTC - D-II moveup
5) ETSU - D-II moveup
6) Marshall - established but sucky D-I team
7) GSU - established and very much a winning I-AA football team
8) Wofford - D-II moveup
9) Elon - 5 year I-AA program with 3 bad years leading in, otherwise a D-II moveup
10) Samford - established I-AA team that has been sluggish lately

So yes, AppMan. Tell me how the recent trend differs from that trend in the 1970s. In the 1970s, I see 4 public schools added that were MOVEUPS. In the past, well, 20 years after that, I see only two moveups with Elon and Wofford.

So, uhm, the SoCon trend now is far less drastic than it was in the 1970s when so many public, moveup schools were added that a handful of the SoCon schools (like Richmond and William & Mary) left.

In fact, since the 1960s, the SoCon has only admitted 1 school with a winning, proven football tradition inside the division. And that is Georgia Southern.

Is that really a trend the SoCon should be proud of? If it doesn't end imagine what the SoCon could look like in 2020. At one point the SoCon was hands down the top FCS conference, now the CAA and Gateway conferences have caught up from top to bottom.

[OL FU]

Is that really a trend the SoCon should be proud of? If it doesn't end imagine what the SoCon could look like in 2020. At one point the SoCon was hands down the top FCS conference, now the CAA and Gateway conferences have caught up from top to bottom.

Yes,

The SoCon is as strong in now as it was then. We won't agree and that is fine. But we have had no fall off in champions or participants in the playoffs. WE may have lost some and gained some in the other sports. The fact that you prefer larger public schools is fine but let's not let it get in the way of the actual results. xnodx

A lot of people thing Marshall was the king. I wonder how they would have done if they would have played by the rulesxrolleyesx

[Saint3333]

Yes,

The SoCon is as strong in now as it was then. We won't agree and that is fine. But we have had no fall off in champions or participants in the playoffs. WE may have lost some and gained some in the other sports. The fact that you prefer larger public schools is fine but let's not let it get in the way of the actual results. xnodx

A lot of people thing Marshall was the king. I wonder how they would have done if they would have played by the rulesxrolleyesx

I'm not a private hater as many Furman and Elon fans may think. I'm for bringing in the best program for the conference. At the time Elon and Samford were not the best option IMO. If some of the private Virginia schools would have been an option I would have taken them over any public schools considered. The problem is they were not approached and the SoCon commissioner is lazy, but that's just my two cents.

Anyway, back to your analysis. The past 5 years I don't think the SoCon has been as strong as it has been, but that is a tough debate with no tangible measurements. However the SoCon was stronger than the A10 and Gateway in the late 80's and 90's and now those conferences have caught up. If the SoCon is at the same strength, why haven't we improved (as other conferences have) to maintain that status.

If ASU and GSU leave, will the SoCon bring in the larger public schools or private schools. They could turn into the Patriot Conference of the south if they don't keep the balance of large and small schools, which I'm perfectly fine with. Conferences made entirely of private schools aren't as successful in athletics.

[OL FU]

I'm not a private hater as many Furman and Elon fans may think. I'm for bringing in the best program for the conference. At the time Elon and Samford were not the best option IMO. If some of the private Virginia schools would have been an option I would have taken them over any public schools considered. The problem is they were not approached and the SoCon commissioner is lazy, but that's just my two cents.

Anyway, back to your analysis. The past 5 years I don't think the SoCon has been as strong as it has been, but that is a tough debate with no tangible measurements. However the SoCon was stronger than the A10 and Gateway in the late 80's and 90's and now those conferences have caught up. If the SoCon is at the same strength, why haven't we improved (as other conferences have) to maintain that status.

If ASU and GSU leave, will the SoCon bring in the larger public schools or private schools. They could turn into the Patriot Conference of the south if they don't keep the balance of large and small schools, which I'm perfectly fine with. Conferences made entirely of private schools aren't as successful in athletics.


Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate you were a hater of the private schools. The smallers schools will always try to maintain the balance and it has tipped a little recently but if you include the Basket ball schools it is still equal.

I agree on Samford. They are here so welcome aboard. The trouble is you also go after what you can get. The argument may be don't take any which in my opinion is a good argument. The only two publics that seemed interested were CCU and JSU. We have heard from some that should be in the know that CCU was never considered. Was that because the small schools said no before the conversation even started. Possibly, especially considering that three of the privates are in SC and two schools are located down the road. I think the SC schools may have been concerned about adding another proximity school as competition ( One reason I am doubtful that PC will ever receive and invite). Jacksonville St on the other hand has been flirting with FBS for a while so I personally think we would have looked stupid asking them. We already have GSU and ASU that will eventually leave. Why invite a school that has already said it is moving upxsmhx

On the other hand, you could be right. It is very possible that the SoCon small schools envision a PL South. but I doubt it. Personally, I think we have enough schools in the conference. We will know after the next invite. xnodx

[OL FU]

Anyway, back to your analysis. The past 5 years I don't think the SoCon has been as strong as it has been, but that is a tough debate with no tangible measurements. However the SoCon was stronger than the A10 and Gateway in the late 80's and 90's and now those conferences have caught up. If the SoCon is at the same strength, why haven't we improved (as other conferences have) to maintain that status.

.


As far as strength, one of the reasons we may not have been as strong in the last five years is that three of years are due to GSU being down ( even though they made the playoffs in one of the years.

The loss is Marshall and of course I have no problem with them being gone. None of the replace ment teams has come close to Marshalls success but I really don't think there was any way you could have found a team that could have replicated Marshall's success.

The other two teams really aren't much for discussion. VMI has been horrible for 25 years. They may have had a year or two where they won a few but FU beat them 20 years in a row. I am not even sure we beat Davidson 20 years in a row. ETSU had some decent years. In my opinion their main strength was they were tough to beat at home. But that wasn't because of the Bucs, that was because of that stupid dome.

Wofford, whose entry was criticized by many, has been a great football addition. It took some time but they are here. Elon is just now starting to get in the mix. Time will tell if they can keep it up.

Overall, from a football perspective only I like our conference better now than then. Of Course I am highly biased against the Herd. If the SoCon had ask me, I would have said take CCU instead of Samford. They didn't ask:(

[CID1990]

I think all of this is moot, since Elon has proven beyond a doubt that they belong in the SoCon. It does no good to speculate whether CCu would have done better, because that is all subjective. Just in football alone Elon will be a worrisome date on anyone's calendar, ASU's included. CCU would not have gone .500 in the SoCon last year, and they don't look much better this year.

[OL FU]

I think all of this is moot, since Elon has proven beyond a doubt that they belong in the SoCon. It does no good to speculate whether CCu would have done better, because that is all subjective. Just in football alone Elon will be a worrisome date on anyone's calendar, ASU's included. CCU would not have gone .500 in the SoCon last year, and they don't look much better this year.


I don't think people were saying take CCU over Elon. CCU didn't play football when Elon joined. ( at least I don't think they did)

[CID1990]

The only way I would want to see CCU in the SoCon is if we can replace cofc or UNCG with them.

[Cocky]

As far as strength, one of the reasons we may not have been as strong in the last five years is that three of years are due to GSU being down ( even though they made the playoffs in one of the years.

The loss is Marshall and of course I have no problem with them being gone. None of the replace ment teams has come close to Marshalls success but I really don't think there was any way you could have found a team that could have replicated Marshall's success.

The other two teams really aren't much for discussion. VMI has been horrible for 25 years. They may have had a year or two where they won a few but FU beat them 20 years in a row. I am not even sure we beat Davidson 20 years in a row. ETSU had some decent years. In my opinion their main strength was they were tough to beat at home. But that wasn't because of the Bucs, that was because of that stupid dome.

Wofford, whose entry was criticized by many, has been a great football addition. It took some time but they are here. Elon is just now starting to get in the mix. Time will tell if they can keep it up.

Overall, from a football perspective only I like our conference better now than then. Of Course I am highly biased against the Herd. If the SoCon had ask me, I would have said take CCU instead of Samford. They didn't ask:(

I have no proof other than people talking, but I've been told that the SOCON did inquire about JSU. JSU express the desire to go to FBS so the attraction from either side wasn't there.

[OL FU]

I have no proof other than people talking, but I've been told that the SOCON did inquire about JSU. JSU express the desire to go to FBS so the attraction from either side wasn't there.

Admittedly I don't know if JSU was interested and I only have what the fans said. It made perfect sense for the SoCon to talk to JSU and it made perfect sense for neither side to have a real interest with the FBS interestxnodx

[gophoenix]

Is that really a trend the SoCon should be proud of? If it doesn't end imagine what the SoCon could look like in 2020. At one point the SoCon was hands down the top FCS conference, now the CAA and Gateway conferences have caught up from top to bottom.

Yes the Gateway and CAA have gotten better. And, believe it or not the SoCon is better. 10 years ago, the SoCon, and no I-AA conference, was rated near the I-A conferences. Now, all three of those conferences are rated and playing well against the upper division. The point is, all three conferences are better than they were 10 years ago.

The CAA: Well, let's see. They took in a previous D-III Hofstra team and a previous low scholarship Patriot school in Towson. They get two startup programs here soon. And you see the CAA people embracing that diversity.

The SoCon: They took Elon and Wofford who were strong D-II schools and who have had ups and downs in I-AA like many of the other conference's schools have.

The Gateway now have two strong D-II moveups also. And they are embracing that.

The trend across the board is the same in all three conferences.

As for the SoCon trend. What is not to be proud of about it? The SoCon is notorious for taking the strongest lower division moveups and making strong teams out of them all the time. Now is no different than it was 30+ years ago. App, UTC, ETSU and WCU were questionable then and you even saw the conference go through a bit of breakup over it with W&M and Richmond (In fact, teams you want now left because you guys entered).

With all that said. Expect by the end of this year or next that the SoCon expands with two public schools. Georgia State and Coastal.

[AppMan]

Your darn right it is about what happened 30+ years ago, and now. You guys love to talk the "trend" and the "footprint" now. You guys love to act like this is all new. But let's take a closer look.

1) East Carolina - NAIA moveup
2) App - NAIA moveup
3) Western Carolina - NAIA moveup
4) UTC - D-II moveup
5) ETSU - D-II moveup
6) Marshall - established but sucky D-I team
7) GSU - established and very much a winning I-AA football team
8) Wofford - D-II moveup
9) Elon - 5 year I-AA program with 3 bad years leading in, otherwise a D-II moveup
10) Samford - established I-AA team that has been sluggish lately

So yes, AppMan. Tell me how the recent trend differs from that trend in the 1970s. In the 1970s, I see 4 public schools added that were MOVEUPS. In the past, well, 20 years after that, I see only two moveups with Elon and Wofford.

So, uhm, the SoCon trend now is far less drastic than it was in the 1970s when so many public, moveup schools were added that a handful of the SoCon schools (like Richmond and William & Mary) left.

In fact, since the 1960s, the SoCon has only admitted 1 school with a winning, proven football tradition inside the division. And that is Georgia Southern.

It's not even close to being the same. Today's college football landscape is vastly different from what it was in the 60's & early 70's. In those days VMI and Davidson held their own with West Virginia & Va Tech on the football field. Today those four programs as about as far apart as you can get. In 1976 there were 160 D-I football playing schools, today that number has swelled to 243. In a little over 30 years the division has grown by more than 50% with most of the growth coming during the last 10 years and mostly in the 1-aa or FCS subdivision. D-II is on the verge of collapse because of the defections and it got so bad the NCAA put a moratorium in place to stop the exodus. BTW, you do realize the 4 year moratorium has far more to do with schools moving from D-II to D-I FCS than FCS schools up to the FBS don't you? Why not move. It takes very few additional dollars to play football at the D-I FCS level and can actually cost less in terms of scholarships. Plus, if you get into the right league a school can receive some mighty fine benefits via the NCAA basketball tournament.

[gophoenix]

It's not even close to being the same. Today's college football landscape is vastly different from what it was in the 60's & early 70's. In those days VMI and Davidson held their own with West Virginia & Va Tech on the football field. Today those four programs as about as far apart as you can get. In 1976 there were 160 D-I football playing schools, today that number has swelled to 243. In a little over 30 years the division has grown by more than 50% with most of the growth coming during the last 10 years and mostly in the 1-aa or FCS subdivision. D-II is on the verge of collapse because of the defections and it got so bad the NCAA put a moratorium in place to stop the exodus. BTW, you do realize the 4 year moratorium has far more to do with schools moving from D-II to D-I FCS than FCS schools up to the FBS don't you? Why not move. It takes very few additional dollars to play football at the D-I FCS level and can actually cost less in terms of scholarships. Plus, if you get into the right league a school can receive some mighty fine benefits via the NCAA basketball tournament.

xrolleyesx

Tiresome tiresome tiresome.

The sky is falling in D-II, help us all. Oh no!!!

xrolleyesx

D-II is not on the verge of collapse. There are 149 football teams in D-II (more than I-AA and I-A). There are 289 schools in Division II as of May 2008 (40 shy of D-I). That is hardly on the verge of collapse because 25 schools moved up to D-I from D-II in a 14 year span.

You have had 14 teams move to I-AA football in a 14 year span (UNC, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UCD, Elon, Wofford, G-W, SSU, Presbyterian, NCCU, WSSU, Bryant). In the 1980s, there were 12 moveups in 9 years. In the early 90s there were 6 moveups outside the forced D-III moveup teams. And for all the private haters that act like only private schools are the moveups, well, only 5 of the moveups of 1.5 decades are private schools.

xrolleyesx

Essentially, what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander is what AppMan wants to say. It was okay for numerous D-II schools and NAIA schools to move up in the 1970s causing a collapse of NAIA and causing a near collapse of then D-II, while making the NCAA form I-AA in the first place because of all the new schools diluting big time football. But, it isn't okay now because, well, because you just don't like it.

xrolleyesx

The fact of the matter is. When it comes to spelling out the facts to people like you, all you want to do is distort them. But But But, VMI played well against VPI and WVU. Well, guess what, VPI and WVU weren't big time schools then. That's like saying now but but but Wofford plays well against ULL and ULM (and they do and have). The playing field now is no more and no less comparable than it was in the 70s. The 70s saw a huge increase in the numbers of move ups. And so did the late 90s. And then it will stagnate again.

Essentially what you are saying is, that it is a good business decision (you are the one always claiming this is business) to move to D-I. You can get kickbacks, extra media coverage, better games. And well after all, you might not have to fund much more and maybe will have to fund less. But honestly, how many of the I-AA move-ups have taken that route? By my count, even Savannah State offers more sports and funds higher.


xrolleyesx

[Gamecocks99]

Welcome to the SoCon.

Don't mind the FBS wannabes.

The SoCon will bring your level of football play up, and then you can schedule those OVC teams OOC in a few years and whip their asses.

NOT IN THIS LIFE TIME

[JaxStateManager]

Amen to that Gamecock99! We made it what, 7 or 8 in a row before the Bastard Baptists of Birmingham bolted for the SoCon?

[CID1990]

Amen to that Gamecock99! We made it what, 7 or 8 in a row before the Bastard Baptists of Birmingham bolted for the SoCon?

Well then we'll see if any of your ADs will schedule them in a few years. Wofford used to be our perennial whipping boy, we piled up around 40 wins over them over the years. Now that they have been in the SoCon for a few years, we can't beat them even on their down years.

I think it would be naive to think that a SoCon schedule every year will not improve Samford's team.

[SoCon48]

xrolleyesx

Tiresome tiresome tiresome.

The sky is falling in D-II, help us all. Oh no!!!

xrolleyesx

D-II is not on the verge of collapse. There are 149 football teams in D-II (more than I-AA and I-A). There are 289 schools in Division II as of May 2008 (40 shy of D-I). That is hardly on the verge of collapse because 25 schools moved up to D-I from D-II in a 14 year span.

You have had 14 teams move to I-AA football in a 14 year span (UNC, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UCD, Elon, Wofford, G-W, SSU, Presbyterian, NCCU, WSSU, Bryant). In the 1980s, there were 12 moveups in 9 years. In the early 90s there were 6 moveups outside the forced D-III moveup teams. And for all the private haters that act like only private schools are the moveups, well, only 5 of the moveups of 1.5 decades are private schools.

xrolleyesx

Essentially, what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander is what AppMan wants to say. It was okay for numerous D-II schools and NAIA schools to move up in the 1970s causing a collapse of NAIA and causing a near collapse of then D-II, while making the NCAA form I-AA in the first place because of all the new schools diluting big time football. But, it isn't okay now because, well, because you just don't like it.

xrolleyesx

The fact of the matter is. When it comes to spelling out the facts to people like you, all you want to do is distort them. But But But, VMI played well against VPI and WVU. Well, guess what, VPI and WVU weren't big time schools then. That's like saying now but but but Wofford plays well against ULL and ULM (and they do and have). The playing field now is no more and no less comparable than it was in the 70s. The 70s saw a huge increase in the numbers of move ups. And so did the late 90s. And then it will stagnate again.

Essentially what you are saying is, that it is a good business decision (you are the one always claiming this is business) to move to D-I. You can get kickbacks, extra media coverage, better games. And well after all, you might not have to fund much more and maybe will have to fund less. But honestly, how many of the I-AA move-ups have taken that route? By my count, even Savannah State offers more sports and funds higher.


xrolleyesx

Depends on your definition of big time. WVU and VPI finished seasons in every decade ranked in the top 10-20 and appeared in major bowls (back when a bowl was quite exclusionary). xrulesx

[SoCon48]

Yes the Gateway and CAA have gotten better. And, believe it or not the SoCon is better. 10 years ago, the SoCon, and no I-AA conference, was rated near the I-A conferences. Now, all three of those conferences are rated and playing well against the upper division. The point is, all three conferences are better than they were 10 years ago.

The CAA: Well, let's see. They took in a previous D-III Hofstra team and a previous low scholarship Patriot school in Towson. They get two startup programs here soon. And you see the CAA people embracing that diversity.

The SoCon: They took Elon and Wofford who were strong D-II schools and who have had ups and downs in I-AA like many of the other conference's schools have.

The Gateway now have two strong D-II moveups also. And they are embracing that.

The trend across the board is the same in all three conferences.

As for the SoCon trend. What is not to be proud of about it? The SoCon is notorious for taking the strongest lower division moveups and making strong teams out of them all the time. Now is no different than it was 30+ years ago. App, UTC, ETSU and WCU were questionable then and you even saw the conference go through a bit of breakup over it with W&M and Richmond (In fact, teams you want now left because you guys entered).
With all that said. Expect by the end of this year or next that the SoCon expands with two public schools. Georgia State and Coastal.

That was more a case of Jim Root W&M private school snobbery than any thoughts of the new members lowering the level of play. In fact it was the contrary. W&M was growing tired of getting their azzes handed to them every year by ECU and the like.

Richmond's leaving had absolutely nothing to do with the new members joining.

[gophoenix]

Depends on your definition of big time. WVU and VPI finished seasons in every decade ranked in the top 10-20 and appeared in major bowls (back when a bowl was quite exclusionary). xrulesx

True, it depends on the definition of big time. But, West Virginia played in 2 bowls between their exit of the SoCon and the start of the 1980s. Virginia Tech play in none during that time, according to CFBDataWarehouse.

AppMan also claimed Davidson and VMI were playing with and beating VPI and WVU during that time too, but Davidson played VPI once since 1952 and lost. VMI on the other hand played them a ton and won many of them. But VPI also only had 3 winning seasons during that same 70s era. That's hardly big time when everyone was on a supposed level playing field then.

Davidson also played WVU once, being 1967. And VMI played WVU 4 times after WVU left the conference and went 4-0. VMI did beat WVU in years that WVU went to bowls.

I guess my point is, AppMan is purposely being misleading about WVU then and WVU now.

And AppMan really mislead when claiming that Davidson was beating these same teams. Davidson was beating those teams before the early 60s, before ECU and App were members. In fact, outside of Wake and Air Force, the notables on the Davidson schedules for the late 60sand 70s included Rhodes, Hampden-Sydney, Randolph-Macon, Guilford, Washington & Lee, Lenoir-Rhyne, Delaware, Elon, Wofford, Kenyon, Trinity, Defiance.... all of whom were NAIA, D-II or D-III and were usually Davidson's only wins for the year.

I think we can all agree that at that time, Davidson was no where close to being Big Time or playing Big Time opponents.

[hawkeye]

Well then we'll see if any of your ADs will schedule them in a few years. Wofford used to be our perennial whipping boy, we piled up around 40 wins over them over the years. Now that they have been in the SoCon for a few years, we can't beat them even on their down years.

I think it would be naive to think that a SoCon schedule every year will not improve Samford's team.

Hard to make chicken salad out of chicken sh--.xnodx

[SoCon48]

True, it depends on the definition of big time. But, West Virginia played in 2 bowls between their exit of the SoCon and the start of the 1980s. Virginia Tech play in none during that time, according to CFBDataWarehouse.

AppMan also claimed Davidson and VMI were playing with and beating VPI and WVU during that time too, but Davidson played VPI once since 1952 and lost. VMI on the other hand played them a ton and won many of them. But VPI also only had 3 winning seasons during that same 70s era. That's hardly big time when everyone was on a supposed level playing field then.

Davidson also played WVU once, being 1967. And VMI played WVU 4 times after WVU left the conference and went 4-0. VMI did beat WVU in years that WVU went to bowls.

I guess my point is, AppMan is purposely being misleading about WVU then and WVU now.

And AppMan really mislead when claiming that Davidson was beating these same teams. Davidson was beating those teams before the early 60s, before ECU and App were members. In fact, outside of Wake and Air Force, the notables on the Davidson schedules for the late 60sand 70s included Rhodes, Hampden-Sydney, Randolph-Macon, Guilford, Washington & Lee, Lenoir-Rhyne, Delaware, Elon, Wofford, Kenyon, Trinity, Defiance.... all of whom were NAIA, D-II or D-III and were usually Davidson's only wins for the year.

I think we can all agree that at that time, Davidson was no where close to being Big Time or playing Big Time opponents.

Personally, I was speaking of the WVU and VPI and football tradition. Basically have always been relatively big time.

FWIW, Davidson played in the Tangerine Bowl in 1969. Again the days when bowls weren't handed out like business cards. Quite a good team that year as I recall.

[MaxASU'81]

It's not even close to being the same. Today's college football landscape is vastly different from what it was in the 60's & early 70's. In those days VMI and Davidson held their own with West Virginia & Va Tech on the football field. Today those four programs as about as far apart as you can get. In 1976 there were 160 D-I football playing schools, today that number has swelled to 243. In a little over 30 years the division has grown by more than 50% with most of the growth coming during the last 10 years and mostly in the 1-aa or FCS subdivision. D-II is on the verge of collapse because of the defections and it got so bad the NCAA put a moratorium in place to stop the exodus. BTW, you do realize the 4 year moratorium has far more to do with schools moving from D-II to D-I FCS than FCS schools up to the FBS don't you? Why not move. It takes very few additional dollars to play football at the D-I FCS level and can actually cost less in terms of scholarships. Plus, if you get into the right league a school can receive some mighty fine benefits via the NCAA basketball tournament.

It would be nice to find the "right league" and move to it!

[JaxSinfonian]

Well then we'll see if any of your ADs will schedule them in a few years.

Perhaps. But in the meantime, it's Samford that's unwilling to continue playing a longstanding rivalry against a team located 60 miles away that regularly brings a big ol' crowd to their stadium.

Jax State's not afraid to play SoCon squads. The Gamecocks have both taken their lumps and held their own, and scared the heck out of a bunch of Furman fans. I don't care how long SU's been getting waxed by Elon & the Citadel, I don't think anyone in Jacksonville will ever shy away from putting Samford on the schedule. We always appreciate a home game in Birmingham.

[gophoenix]

Personally, I was speaking of the WVU and VPI and football tradition. Basically have always been relatively big time.

FWIW, Davidson played in the Tangerine Bowl in 1969. Again the days when bowls weren't handed out like business cards. Quite a good team that year as I recall.

You're right, they did. Why would they give a bowl game to a team that played two sub-DI games and went 7-4?

[CID1990]

The Tangerine Bowl was a bowl for small colleges, not to be confused with one of the big ones like the Orange or Sugar. The Citadel played in it in 1960 and beat Tenn Tech.

[SoCon48]

Fitting. Tangerines are small oranges.

It is now the Capitol One Bowl and previously the Citrus Bowl.

It was much less a small college bowl by the time Davidson played in it. When Citadel played in 1960, Presbyterian had been in it in the previous year.
By Davidson's visit, it was Division I only and usually matched up the OVC and the SoCon.
But no, not the Rose Bowl, but better than today's dotcom bowls.

1962 December 22, 1962 Houston 49 Miami (Ohio) 21
1963 December 28, 1963 Western Kentucky 27 Coast Guard 0
1964 December 12, 1964 East Carolina 14 Massachusetts 13
1965 December 11, 1965 East Carolina 31 Maine 0
1966 December 10, 1966 Morgan State 14 West Chester 6
1967 December 16, 1967 Tennessee-Martin 25 West Chester 8
1968 December 27, 1968 Richmond 49 Ohio 42
1969 December 26, 1969 Toledo 56 Davidson 33 1970 December 28, 1970 Toledo 40 William & Mary 12
1971 December 28, 1971 Toledo 28 Richmond 3
1972 December 29, 1972 Tampa 21 Kent State 18
1973 December 22, 1973 Miami (Ohio) 16 Florida 7
1974 December 21, 1974 Miami (Ohio) 21 Georgia 10
1975 December 20, 1975 Miami (Ohio) 20 South Carolina 7
1976 December 18, 1976 Oklahoma State 49 BYU 21
1977 December 23, 1977 Florida State 40 Texas Tech 17
1978 December 23, 1978 NC State 30 Pittsburgh 17
1979 December 22, 1979 LSU 34 Wake Forest 10
1980 December 20, 1980 Florida 35 Maryland 20
1981 December 19, 1981 Missouri 19 Southern Miss 17
1982 December 18, 1982 Auburn 33 Boston College 26
1983 December 17, 1983 Tennessee 30 Maryland 23
1984 December 22, 1984 Florida State 17 Georgia 17
1985 December 28, 1985 Ohio State 10 BYU 7
1986 January 1, 1987 Auburn 16 USC 7
1987 January 1, 1988 Clemson 35 Penn State 10
1988 January 2, 1989 Clemson 13 Oklahoma 6
1989 January 1, 1990 Illinois 31 Virginia 21
1990 January 1, 1991 Georgia Tech 45 Nebraska 21
1991 January 1, 1992 California 37 Clemson 13
1992 January 1, 1993 Georgia 21 Ohio State 14
1993 January 1, 1994 Penn State 31 Tennessee 13
1994 January 2, 1995 Alabama 24 Ohio State 17
1995 January 1, 1996 Tennessee 20 Ohio State 14
1996 January 1, 1997 Tennessee 48 Northwestern 28
1997 January 1, 1998 Florida 21 Penn State 6
1998 January 1, 1999 Michigan 45 Arkansas 31
1999 January 1, 2000 Michigan State 37' Florida 34
2000 January 1, 2001 Michigan 31 Auburn 28
2001 January 1, 2002 Tennessee 45 Michigan 17
2002 January 1, 2003 Auburn 13 Penn State 9
2003 January 1, 2004 Georgia 34 Purdue 27 (OT)
2004 January 1, 2005 Iowa 30 LSU 25
2005 January 2, 2006 Wisconsin 24 Auburn 10
2006 January 1, 2007 Wisconsin 17 Arkansas 14
2007 January 1, 2008 Michigan 41 Florida 35

[ElonPride]

Elon was chosen over CCU because CCU can't carry Elon's jock in either academics or YES, athletics. Elon has a rich tradition in both.

Thank you CID1990

[ElonPride]

Just noticed that fans of Wofford, App State, GSU, & The Citadel are all excited for Elon's baseball team in the NCAA's. That includes me. Again, no personal attack was intented towards private schools.


Thanks for the support......Elon's been to the regionals 3 times out of the last 5 years. Two of those were at large bids.

[Jiggs]

Perhaps. But in the meantime, it's Samford that's unwilling to continue playing a longstanding rivalry against a team located 60 miles away that regularly brings a big ol' crowd to their stadium.

Other than your band, (which is, as you read this, still entering Seibert Stadium) there wasn't much of a JSU crowd there this past year. Is every student at JSU required to be in the band? And what's up with those flag boys?

[JaxSinfonian]

Other than your band, (which is, as you read this, still entering Seibert Stadium) there wasn't much of a JSU crowd there this past year. [quote]

If the crowd was smaller, it may have had something to do with the team's fortunes by that point in the season. I don't remember thinking it was any smaller than the last trip, though certainly it didn't match the '03 crowd. It at least appeared to be in the usual proportion to the size of the Samford crowd. I will miss our trips to our Jefferson County home.

[quote]Is every student at JSU required to be in the band?

This may come as a surprise to a Samford grad, but it's considered normal in most places to have more than 100 people in a marching band. (Seriously though, I've always thought Samford's band made up in quality for what it lacked in size ... if not guts - How come they never chartered the one bus it would have taken to get them all to Jacksonville for a game?)


And what's up with those flag boys?

You Baptists never cease to amaze me with this: 350 people on the field in brightly colored uniforms, marching in intricate formations, playing loud, powerful music, banging on drums, doing everything to distract you, with short-skirted girls kicking over their heads, even ... and you guys can't seem to get the talented young men in crushed velvet out of your minds. Hmmm ....

[Purple Pride]

I think the OVC should go after Western Illinois. They be a great addition. I also think you should start whispering in the ears of the folks at Grand Valley State University about moving up from D2.


Trustees get pros and cons

By Jeff McIntyre
Assistant Sports Editor

UNIVERSITY OF NORTH ALABAMA
Last Updated:May 29. 2008 11:15PM
Published: May 30. 2008 3:30AM

What will it take?


Taking the athletic program from NCAA Division II to Division I would be an expensive move for the University of North Alabama, based on a just-completed feasibility study by an independent consulting firm.

In fact, the move would require UNA to almost double its current athletic budget of just over $4 million, based on the findings of NACDA Consulting.

The study concludes the budget would need to be about $7.4 million for the Lions to be competitive in every sport.

NACDA Consulting began working in January on the study. The finished product was presented to the university's board of trustees Thursday morning during a meeting at the Florence Golf and Country Club.

UNA has been a member of Division II for more than 35 years.

"This is a good first step for us," UNA Athletic Director Mark Linder said. "There is a lot of information here for us to look at and it will help us make the best decision for UNA. It's a big step for us in making our athletic department better."

Johnny Williams, president and chief executive officer of Creative Management and Marketing, worked with NACDA on the proposal. Williams played football and graduated for UNA and later became athletic director at Troy. Under his leadership, Troy, a former on-the-field rival of the Lions, has made a successful transition to the Division I ranks.

Williams said the purpose of the project has never been to make a recommendation about which way the UNA athletic program should go. Instead, he said the study was meant to point out the positives and negatives associated with moving up to Division I or staying in Division II.

"We gave them the pros and the cons as well as the benchmarks of where they would need to be," Williams said. "We'll do a follow-up report, but then it's up to UNA on what to do next. It's a big decision for UNA."

The Lions have had success in Division II through the years, most notably with three football and two men's basketball national championships.

The presentation outlined how UNA compares to other schools in the Gulf South Conference, top Division II programs nationwide and to Division I schools that participate in the Ohio Valley Conference and Southland Conference.

When compared to the top 10 football-playing schools in Division II, UNA's athletic budget of $4.03 million is 29 percent below the average $5.67 million budget. UNA's budget ranked second in the Gulf South Conference, behind Delta State.

Williams said UNA would need to raise its athletic budget to at least the Ohio Valley Conference of $7.4 million to be competitive in Division I.

The study said UNA would also need to add to its number of scholarships awarded to athletes. The Lions are below the average scholarship level in its own conference. Considering partial scholarships, UNA offers the equivalent of 96.64 scholarships. Just to get to the other third of the GSC, nearly 20 scholarships need to be added, based on the report.

To reach the average scholarship level of Ohio Valley Conference schools, UNA would have to add 70.38 scholarships.

The study also revealed that two additional sports must be added should UNA opt to move to Division I. The study recommended that both additional sports be women's programs because there are 23 more male athletes on scholarship than female athletes.

The study states that 14 more coaches would be needed to make the move as well, along with eight athletic department staff members.

Among the recommendations listed as possible means to pay for the increased budget and the additional scholarships and employees are the likely implementation of a $230 annual student fee for athletics. Other revenue-producing proposals included increased ticket sales, corporate sponsorships and game guarantees for scheduling larger schools such as Alabama and Auburn.

The proposal pointed out several UNA strengths that would make a move to Division I easier. Among those strengths are the tradition of the program, the support and size of the community, institutional support, good facilities and membership interest from the Ohio Valley Conference.

Williams also pointed out that a move to Division I would allow UNA to renew rivalries with teams such as Jacksonville State, Troy and Alabama A&M, which would almost certainly increase ticket sales.

"UNA doesn't really have a big rival now that most of the old GSC teams have gone Division I," Williams said. "When I played at UNA, the Jacksonville State game was huge. With Samford leaving, the OVC is looking for another team and UNA would be a great fit geographically for the conference."

Among the negatives of moving to Division I is the potential loss of the Division II National Championship Game, played each year at Braly Stadium since 1986.

Even if UNA decides to move to Division I, it could not be made until August 2011. Last August, the NCAA placed a four-year moratorium on allowing institutions to formally begin the process of joining the division.

Linder said the moratorium was a good thing for UNA.

"Not being able to make a move for three more years is a blessing," he said. "If the moratorium was not in place, it might lead us to a rash decision. This gives us plenty of time to comb the facts and make a good decision."

After the presentation, Steve Pierce, president pro tem of the board, said the goal of the trustees is to make UNA athletics the best it can be, regardless of the division of play.

"This is good information for us to look at and decide where we want to be in our athletic program," Pierce said. "Even if we made a decision tomorrow, it would be at least three years before the opportunity would be available. We'll look at our program as it is and see if we want to be in Division I or just work to be better in Division II."

Jeff McIntyre can be reached at 740-5737 or [email protected].

[jsualum97]

If JSU decides to go to 1A in football,and possibly to the Sun Belt, why would UNA want to go to the OVC?? Would it still be geographically attractive for them to join the OVC, or would another conference look more attractive??

[TTUEagles]

I think it would be fine geographically: Jax St, Tenn Tech (< 3 1/2 hrs away), Tenn St ( 2 hrs away), APSU (3 hrs), UT-Martin (3 1/2 hrs), Murray St (3.5 hrs), SEMO (4.5 hrs).
I've watched UNA for years and it is definitely a school known for its athletics (and a gorgeous campus, too). I am a huge TTU fan, but I'll admit they were better than at LEAST 3 or 4 OVC schools already last year. Competitively, at least in football, I think it would be a smooth transition to the OVC.

[JaxSinfonian]

If JSU decides to go to 1A in football,and possibly to the Sun Belt, why would UNA want to go to the OVC?? Would it still be geographically attractive for them to join the OVC

Absolutely. as TTUEagles points out, TUNA is just as close to Martin, Murray & Cookeville as they are to Jacksonville. TSU would be their nearest neighbor, not Jax State. Obviously, renewing the rivalry with Jax State would be a big attraction, but not the only one. (There's a little bit of GSC overlap with UT-Martin, too.)

That game would be a big attraction for Jax State, as well. Old-school Gamecocks fans put the Lions right after Troy on their love-to-beat list, and well ahead of even Samford. Getting to play again on the field where JSU won the 1992 DII title would be nice, too.

The OVC is a lot less attractive for JSU with Samford gone & off our schedule. TUNA moving up and joining the conference might be just enough to keep the crowd looking at FBS from making the leap, assuming the money for our move is as hard to find as I think it will be. If the OVC expands with non-football schools, or with more schools in Illinois or Kentucky, JSU will find the exit fast as it can, and since the SoCon's not interested FBS it is. TUNA might keep 'em happy enough to stay, though.

I've been saying it on this board for some time: TUNA is the best possible new member for the OVC (after UTC), and the OVC is the best possible DI fit for the Lions. Now if only they'll move up and get it over with.

[JaxSinfonian]

FWIW, current OVC football members are mapped in red, & UNA's the big purple dot.

http://myweb.cableone.net/jax42/ovc-una-map.gif

[JaxStateManager]

Plus, if UNA were to join the OVC, it would allow JSU a shot at redemption for the embarrassing 28-16 loss at the hands of UNA during JSU's 2003 OVC Championship season.

[AppMan]

xrolleyesx

Tiresome tiresome tiresome.

The sky is falling in D-II, help us all. Oh no!!!

xrolleyesx

D-II is not on the verge of collapse. There are 149 football teams in D-II (more than I-AA and I-A). There are 289 schools in Division II as of May 2008 (40 shy of D-I). That is hardly on the verge of collapse because 25 schools moved up to D-I from D-II in a 14 year span.

You have had 14 teams move to I-AA football in a 14 year span (UNC, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UCD, Elon, Wofford, G-W, SSU, Presbyterian, NCCU, WSSU, Bryant). In the 1980s, there were 12 moveups in 9 years. In the early 90s there were 6 moveups outside the forced D-III moveup teams. And for all the private haters that act like only private schools are the moveups, well, only 5 of the moveups of 1.5 decades are private schools.

xrolleyesx

Essentially, what is good for the goose, isn't good for the gander is what AppMan wants to say. It was okay for numerous D-II schools and NAIA schools to move up in the 1970s causing a collapse of NAIA and causing a near collapse of then D-II, while making the NCAA form I-AA in the first place because of all the new schools diluting big time football. But, it isn't okay now because, well, because you just don't like it.

xrolleyesx

The fact of the matter is. When it comes to spelling out the facts to people like you, all you want to do is distort them. But But But, VMI played well against VPI and WVU. Well, guess what, VPI and WVU weren't big time schools then. That's like saying now but but but Wofford plays well against ULL and ULM (and they do and have). The playing field now is no more and no less comparable than it was in the 70s. The 70s saw a huge increase in the numbers of move ups. And so did the late 90s. And then it will stagnate again.

Essentially what you are saying is, that it is a good business decision (you are the one always claiming this is business) to move to D-I. You can get kickbacks, extra media coverage, better games. And well after all, you might not have to fund much more and maybe will have to fund less. But honestly, how many of the I-AA move-ups have taken that route? By my count, even Savannah State offers more sports and funds higher.


xrolleyesx

OK Napoleon, whatever you say. My problem is not with private schools in the division, I just don't like ASU being in the same conference with schools we have little in common with. So, you think the NCAA formed 1-AA because of the rush of D-II & NAIA schools joining D-I? OK.....

If you don't think D-II is in trouble you certainly don't share the concerns of D-II administrators. Situations like the 86-year-old North Central Conference being disbanded following last season because of Northern Colorado, N Dakota State & South Dakota State moving to the FCS have certainly got the attention of the Division II Management Council. You don't think they are nervous about their membership levels? D-II implemented an aggressive marketing campaign to enhance their image and at the 2008 NCAA Convention Division II approved a 10-year pilot program to help Canadian institutions seek active membership marking the first time the NCAA has facilitated international membership. Need more proof?

From the NCAA News: At the 2008 Convention in Nashville there were discussions about the future of its membership structure and possible solutions for how to accommodate membership growth. The NCAA adopted a four-year moratorium while current membership criteria is reviewed. In Division II, the concern is with the recent migration of institutions to Division I. The problem is particularly acute in the western regions where Division II membership has been trimmed. A Task Force has recommended the D-II Presidents Council sponsor legislation to create two football playoff championships. A 16 team playoff for programs offering no more than 36 grants and another 8 team playoff other for those offering 18 grants.

Using the benchmark of 1982 when 1-aa was expanded, 74 programs were eligible for the playoffs. Of those 11 moved on to 1-A / FBS and 8 dropped football or decided on non-scholarship status leaving 55 of the original membership still arounf today. I fully understand conferences needing to replace members, but in 2008 there will be around 100 playoff eligible programs in the FCS. Although the division has almost doubled in size, no program added after 1984 has won a national championship or played in the championship game. Additionally, only 5 schools admitted since 1984 made it to the semi-finals with Wofford being the only school admitted since 1990 among that group. Of the 38 current members added to the division since 1990 only 1 has made it to the semi-finals.

[AppMan]

Perhaps. But in the meantime, it's Samford that's unwilling to continue playing a longstanding rivalry against a team located 60 miles away that regularly brings a big ol' crowd to their stadium.

2007 attendance 6273. I'd hate to see a little bitty ol' crowd.

[JaxSinfonian]

2007 attendance 6273. I'd hate to see a little bitty ol' crowd.

Try the crowd for Presbyterian, at 2,575.

Admittedly a down year for the JSU visit to Homewood, but I'd wager that two-fifths to one-half of those were Jax State fans. I'm sure App will travel well to Birmingham, but how many SoCon opponents can Samford expect to bring 2,500-3,000 or more visiting fans along?

[Eyes of Old Main]

...but how many SoCon opponents can Samford expect to bring 2,500-3,000 or more visiting fans along?

Probably not many will bring those numbers besides App and GSU. Furman might. So might Chattanooga if they get better and re-energize their fanbase. I'll be going to Wofford's game at Samford this fall and I would expect about 1000 Terrier fans. While that's not a huge draw, I bet its comparable to many of the OVC schools that have been visiting Samford in recent years. Overall, I would expect the two year totals of visiting fans frm the SoCon to exceed that of the OVC which would be a net gain for Samford.

[JaxSinfonian]

Overall, I would expect the two year totals of visiting fans frm the SoCon to exceed that of the OVC which would be a net gain for Samford.

That may be so. But I didn't bring up attendance to compare OVC and SoCon visiting crowds at Samford. An earlier poster implied that OVC schools might not want to schedule Samford after the Bulldogs have been in the SoCon a few years. I replied to say that for now it's Samford who is avoiding a particular opponent, one that brings a number of attractive qualities one might look for in an OOC game, including history, proximity and a crowd likely to boost the average home attendance.

Instead of keeping Jax State on the schedule as they move to their new conference, they're playing Faulkner, of the NAIA. I guess that works out for 'em, giving them a better shot at a 4- or 5-win season instead of 3 or 4 Ws.

[citdog]

jax employs Jack Crowe who couldn't beat The Citadel with SEC talent at Arkansas and evidently now he is allowed to lead OTHER IDIOTS.

[JaxSinfonian]

jax employs Jack Crowe who couldn't beat The Citadel with SEC talent at Arkansas and evidently now he is allowed to lead OTHER IDIOTS.

All true, citdog, and your team might not have trouble beating his current squad, either.

One team Jack hasn't had much trouble with, however, is Samford. The Gamecocks are 8-0 against our neighbors since he took the helm in 2000, with an average margin of victory of better than three TDs. Is it becoming clear why we're not on their schedule this year?

[Saint3333]

JSU > Samford no doubt about it, unfortunately the SoCon officials, who were looking for a travel partner for UTC, selected the wrong Alabama program.

[Jiggs]

I think Jax State, caught up in long-term Troy envy, is frustrated that Samford in moving on, while Jax State continues to dream of playing in the SEC, nevertheless stuck in reality. Just because Samford is happy in FCS and happier in the SoCon, don't continue to try to drag us into your misery.

[gophoenix]

OK Napoleon, whatever you say. My problem is not with private schools in the division, I just don't like ASU being in the same conference with schools we have little in common with. So, you think the NCAA formed 1-AA because of the rush of D-II & NAIA schools joining D-I? OK.....

If you don't think D-II is in trouble you certainly don't share the concerns of D-II administrators. Situations like the 86-year-old North Central Conference being disbanded following last season because of Northern Colorado, N Dakota State & South Dakota State moving to the FCS have certainly got the attention of the Division II Management Council. You don't think they are nervous about their membership levels? D-II implemented an aggressive marketing campaign to enhance their image and at the 2008 NCAA Convention Division II approved a 10-year pilot program to help Canadian institutions seek active membership marking the first time the NCAA has facilitated international membership. Need more proof?

From the NCAA News: At the 2008 Convention in Nashville there were discussions about the future of its membership structure and possible solutions for how to accommodate membership growth. The NCAA adopted a four-year moratorium while current membership criteria is reviewed. In Division II, the concern is with the recent migration of institutions to Division I. The problem is particularly acute in the western regions where Division II membership has been trimmed. A Task Force has recommended the D-II Presidents Council sponsor legislation to create two football playoff championships. A 16 team playoff for programs offering no more than 36 grants and another 8 team playoff other for those offering 18 grants.

Using the benchmark of 1982 when 1-aa was expanded, 74 programs were eligible for the playoffs. Of those 11 moved on to 1-A / FBS and 8 dropped football or decided on non-scholarship status leaving 55 of the original membership still arounf today. I fully understand conferences needing to replace members, but in 2008 there will be around 100 playoff eligible programs in the FCS. Although the division has almost doubled in size, no program added after 1984 has won a national championship or played in the championship game. Additionally, only 5 schools admitted since 1984 made it to the semi-finals with Wofford being the only school admitted since 1990 among that group. Of the 38 current members added to the division since 1990 only 1 has made it to the semi-finals.

One conference folding is not a worry for an entire division that is larger than I-AA. Since D-II was formed, entire conferences have moved up from NAIA. And, even with the handful of teams that voluntarily moved up from D-II to I-AA, D-II has GAINED more members from moveups and startups than they have lost. But keep spinning along if you want to. It doesn't change the facts at hand. D-IIs better teams have move up to I-AA for the most part whether you want to admit it or not. And whether or not those moveups have made it to the final four makes to silly difference if they are competing well overall, which they are.

I can understand your frustration I guess. Some people have lots of problem with change. You seem to be one of them.

And people like you who complain about being in a conference with schools they have little in common with. xrolleyesx People like you have yet to actually point out a reason that you have nothing in common with some of your conference members. And you still refuse to admit that you entered a conference which had members at the time that you had nothing in common with. But, still, that doesn't ever seem to be a problem for you. xrolleyesx

More typical what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander nonsense coming from you....

Also, I notice how you change your benchmarks to further spin your facts. GSU was added since 1982. And it more than proves that new members added since your benchmark make it and do well. xrolleyesx

[AppMan]

One conference folding is not a worry for an entire division that is larger than I-AA. Since D-II was formed, entire conferences have moved up from NAIA. And, even with the handful of teams that voluntarily moved up from D-II to I-AA, D-II has GAINED more members from moveups and startups than they have lost. But keep spinning along if you want to. It doesn't change the facts at hand. D-IIs better teams have move up to I-AA for the most part whether you want to admit it or not. And whether or not those moveups have made it to the final four makes to silly difference if they are competing well overall, which they are.

I can understand your frustration I guess. Some people have lots of problem with change. You seem to be one of them.

And people like you who complain about being in a conference with schools they have little in common with. xrolleyesx People like you have yet to actually point out a reason that you have nothing in common with some of your conference members. And you still refuse to admit that you entered a conference which had members at the time that you had nothing in common with. But, still, that doesn't ever seem to be a problem for you. xrolleyesx

More typical what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander nonsense coming from you....

Also, I notice how you change your benchmarks to further spin your facts. GSU was added since 1982. And it more than proves that new members added since your benchmark make it and do well. xrolleyesx

Hey Einstein, I didn't add GSU because they were a start up program that didn't move up from any other division. The Eagles started from scratch and moved straight into D-I. Same for Coastal Carolina. But, since you are making such a big deal out of it, go back to the benchmark year 1982 and add GSU to the mix. Now there are 2 schools who joined the division after 1982 that made it to the final four and 1 picked up a national championship. Don't know how this supports your D-II arguement, but there it is. Feel better now?

You want to discount the fact only two schools admitted after 1982 have made the final four? OK, looking at the entire playoff picture (since 1982) the number zooms all the way up to 15 and 2 of those - UCF & Troy - are no longer around. The number could actually be 16 if you were to consider Portland State who was in 1-aa from 1978 thru 1980, but came back in 1998. Still only 16 schools who moved into the division since 1982 have participated in the playoffs.

The problems in D-II run far deeper than just one conference folding. Evidently you didn't bother to read the rest of the material about the concerns of the D-II hierarchy and I'm willing to bet those folks have a little more insight into the situation than you. You say it's only D-II's better programs "for the most part" making the move to 1-aa / FCS. BTW, I like that "for the most part" stuff since it leaves you a lot of wiggle room. Since 1982 (don't want to be accused of rigging the demographics) only 5 schools who won D-II national championships made the move. To help you with the math that's 5 over the past 25 years. Had we been involved in this discussion back in 1992 you would have a valid point, but when you consider only 3 national championship winning programs have moved up since 1990 (with the last championship having been won 11 years ago) your statement holds very little merit.

BTW, I love change! I love the changes that have taken place in Boone over the last few years! But, the change I'm looking forward to the most is when ASU no longer has to tee it up in high school size stadiums with 6,000 people in the stands.

[AppMan]

Try the crowd for Presbyterian, at 2,575.

Admittedly a down year for the JSU visit to Homewood, but I'd wager that two-fifths to one-half of those were Jax State fans. I'm sure App will travel well to Birmingham, but how many SoCon opponents can Samford expect to bring 2,500-3,000 or more visiting fans along?

Don't bet on a strong ASU following making it to Birmingham. Nothing personal against Samford, but the Bulldogs just don't excite our fan base. Heck, the only time ASU fans travel well to Chattanooga is for the championship game.

[JaxSinfonian]

I think Jax State, caught up in long-term Troy envy, is frustrated that Samford in moving on, while Jax State continues to dream of playing in the SEC, nevertheless stuck in reality. Just because Samford is happy in FCS and happier in the SoCon, don't continue to try to drag us into your misery.

Actually, I'd call my condition Samford envy (enjoy that). I'm not in favor of charging into an FBS folly. I believe the SoCon was the best possible FCS home for us, and I believe we were a better fit than Samford for the conference. Unfortunately, our flirtation with the so-called "big time" and our APR trouble may have cost us an invitation. I am very jealous that while you'll be visiting Greenville and Boone, we'll have to keep worrying about letting our guard down against SEMO. It was the right move for Samford, no doubt, and kudos for it.

I will continue, however, to criticize Samford for ending the series with Jax State. I will call it what it is: a naked attempt to keep from losing any more to the Gamecocks. It is the easiest possible way to keep another L off the record, but can you really enjoy the W you should get against Faulkner?

As for misery, there's none of that here. It might be a good word, though, to describe the feeling Bulldogs fans may have about their first few years in the SoCon. Of course, it may not be all that different from their last few years in the OVC. ;)

[SU DOG]

Actually JaxSinfonian has hinted at a JSU truth. They would have JUMPED at the SoCon if given the chance. Statements about JSU not being interested are absolutely a pile of BS. What has NOT been pointed out is that Samford has recently made a strong commitment to football. The construction of the new football building will begin this summer, and there are plans for a major stadium expansion. Pat Sullivan and staff have been there for only one season. Check out Sullivan's 2 recruiting classes if you think the Dogs have no talent. It is not like Samford has vowed never to play JSU again. Admittedly, we have to crawl before we walk and playing Ole Miss and the SoCon schedule will be challenging enough. I have been told "officially" that Samford would definitely consider playing JSU in the future. I hope that we do. Their band is just awesome and I have relatives and friends who are alumni. BTW, Samford won the OVC Women's All-Sports trophy, and finished 3rd in the Men's. Samford finished ahead of JSU in BOTH standings.

[zilla]

Actually, I'd call my condition Samford envy (enjoy that). I'm not in favor of charging into an FBS folly. I believe the SoCon was the best possible FCS home for us, and I believe we were a better fit than Samford for the conference. Unfortunately, our flirtation with the so-called "big time" and our APR trouble may have cost us an invitation. I am very jealous that while you'll be visiting Greenville and Boone, we'll have to keep worrying about letting our guard down against SEMO. It was the right move for Samford, no doubt, and kudos for it.

I will continue, however, to criticize Samford for ending the series with Jax State. I will call it what it is: a naked attempt to keep from losing any more to the Gamecocks. It is the easiest possible way to keep another L off the record, but can you really enjoy the W you should get against Faulkner?

As for misery, there's none of that here. It might be a good word, though, to describe the feeling Bulldogs fans may have about their first few years in the SoCon. Of course, it may not be all that different from their last few years in the OVC. ;)

I've seen on numerous message boards, including this one, where the SoCon may expand to 14 teams in another year or two. Maybe there's still a chance that Jacksonville State can get in (if the FBS study thing falls through). Then the JSU/Samford rivalry could resume.

[IndianaAppMan]

The problems in D-II run far deeper than just one conference folding. Evidently you didn't bother to read the rest of the material about the concerns of the D-II hierarchy and I'm willing to bet those folks have a little more insight into the situation.

You're right about that one. I remember reading on ESPN.com a few months ago that many Division II schools are very concerned about their football teams' competetive futures. (No, I don't have an article to cite. This forum isn't for a published, peer-reviewed jounal. Everyone will have to just take my word for it that this is accurate info I read on ESPN.com);)

The concern is that many schools (such as Presbyterian, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, etc.) are making the exodus to FCS because it has meant slightly more national exposure, greater on-campus interest in the team, and (most importantly) more revenue to increased ticket sales. Joining a D-I conference also enables the whole athletic department a little more revenue from revenue sharing from televised conference basketball tournaments. For instance, Presbyterian, as a Big South member, will get revenue sharing from ESPN's televised conference title game each March. Not a massive amount of revenue from that, but much more than offered by D-II.

Meanwhile, many D-II schools, particularly those on the tightest budgets, are moving to D-III. The lack of ticket sales and other revenue streams needed to run a scholarship-based athletic department is too much to handle for many schools, thus these schools choose to discontinue offering scholarships and downgrade to D-III. This is part of the reason why D-III has grown so large, which has led the NCAA to consider subdiving D-III into an A and AA system (like D-1 is for football) or to carve out a Division IV from D-III.

I will be amazed if what I have stated will be construed as an attack on Division II, Division III, Elon, private schools, or whatever else, but I'm sure that it can be done. The fact of the matter is that D-II DOES have major problems due to members' persistent leaving, even if there are over a hundred members.

[Jiggs]

Don't bet on a strong ASU following making it to Birmingham. Nothing personal against Samford, but the Bulldogs just don't excite our fan base. Heck, the only time ASU fans travel well to Chattanooga is for the championship game.

You will know that you have arrived when you are excited about your own team, regardless of the team you are playing.

[gophoenix]

You're right about that one. I remember reading on ESPN.com a few months ago that many Division II schools are very concerned about their football teams' competetive futures. (No, I don't have an article to cite. This forum isn't for a published, peer-reviewed jounal. Everyone will have to just take my word for it that this is accurate info I read on ESPN.com);)

The concern is that many schools (such as Presbyterian, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, etc.) are making the exodus to FCS because it has meant slightly more national exposure, greater on-campus interest in the team, and (most importantly) more revenue to increased ticket sales. Joining a D-I conference also enables the whole athletic department a little more revenue from revenue sharing from televised conference basketball tournaments. For instance, Presbyterian, as a Big South member, will get revenue sharing from ESPN's televised conference title game each March. Not a massive amount of revenue from that, but much more than offered by D-II.

Meanwhile, many D-II schools, particularly those on the tightest budgets, are moving to D-III. The lack of ticket sales and other revenue streams needed to run a scholarship-based athletic department is too much to handle for many schools, thus these schools choose to discontinue offering scholarships and downgrade to D-III. This is part of the reason why D-III has grown so large, which has led the NCAA to consider subdiving D-III into an A and AA system (like D-1 is for football) or to carve out a Division IV from D-III.

I will be amazed if what I have stated will be construed as an attack on Division II, Division III, Elon, private schools, or whatever else, but I'm sure that it can be done. The fact of the matter is that D-II DOES have major problems due to members' persistent leaving, even if there are over a hundred members.

But what I keep saying, and what people keep ignoring is, outside of that North Central Conference, D-II has lost virtually nothing it wasn't going to lose anyway. The SAC-8 moved to D-II whole in 1991. Elon, Presbyterian and Gardner-Webb used that move to D-II only as a transition to move to D-I which was planned anyhow. The North Central and UC-Davis type of schools are schools that should have been D-I anyway and moving up was long overdue. And considering the number of NAIA conferences that have moved to D-II as a whole, D-II has gained more schools that it has lost over a 17 year period.

As far as AppMan is concerned... there's no point is responding to someone who starts a post off with insults. You spin facts plain and simple to fit your argument. So, with that. Enjoy sitting your your vat of negativeness and inferiority complexes.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The conference is still 7 public schools and only 5 private schools. I'd hardly say that the private schools are "taking over".

[IndianaAppMan]

Don't bet on a strong ASU following making it to Birmingham. Nothing personal against Samford, but the Bulldogs just don't excite our fan base. Heck, the only time ASU fans travel well to Chattanooga is for the championship game.

AppMan, I don't know how you feel about the thought of App one day moving to FBS, but I think you made a good point against it by saying this. If we App fans would have trouble getting excited about playing Samford, a team that may remind of us the rivalry we share with Furman or Elon, how would we be able to get excited about playing Troy State, Arkansas State, MTSU, Tulane, Southern Miss, Fla. Int'l., or Rice? (The only C-USA or Sun Belt rivalries that might work would be ECU or Marshall, but I digress.)

Personally, I think Samford will develop rivalries well in the SoCon with larger and smaller schools alike. They're only two states away from most of the conference! Imagine what it's like for Montana playing Northern Arizona, or NDSU playing Youngstown!


And people like you who complain about being in a conference with schools they have little in common with. People like you have yet to actually point out a reason that you have nothing in common with some of your conference members. And you still refuse to admit that you entered a conference which had members at the time that you had nothing in common with. But, still, that doesn't ever seem to be a problem for you.

Let's be real: there are a lot of "people like you," as you say in an obvious put-down, who feel this way. Most universities enjoy membership in conferences with rivals that are similar to themselves. As a current resident within Big Ten country, I hear often about the Big Ten's desire to consist of like-minded schools. It's no mistake that, besides the Ivy League, only the Big Ten has all its members in the prestigious Association of American Universities. WVU and Louisville aren't in the AAU; Pitt, Missouri, and Notre Dame are. That's why the latter have any shot at Big Ten membership and the former do not. The Pac-10 is very similar to the Big Ten in this way, highly desiring world-class research in its membership as well as athletics. The SEC is a little different; it's a bit more lenient on academic requirements and is mostly based on athletics. Vandy and UF are its only AAU members.

Let's look at the FCS. The Patriot League consists of highly prestigious, liberal arts private schools with long histories of working together. Same for the Ivy League, obviously. The Pioneer League shares the same goal of having non-scholarship yet D-1 football programs. The NEC consists of schools with 36 scholly's and a long, shared tradition. The MEAC and SWAC have long-time rivalries together and shared histories as HBCU's.

My case is that it's very common for schools to desire playing against other schools like them. App State, as a school, is a lot more similar to Western Carolina, UTC, GSU than it is to Furman, Samford, or Elon. Is there any argument there? With Marshall, VMI, and ETSU being replaced with Wofford, Elon, and Samford, I cannot help but wonder if that frustrates the larger public schools to a degree. Yes, I'm aware that there weren't many choices among public schools. CCU evidently wasn't considered acceptable, and, even as JaxSinfonian pointed out, Jacksonville State wasn't either likely due to APR troubles with the NCAA.

I hope that there will be good balance and cooperation in a conference that's almost 50/50 public and private, which is virtually unheard of. If not, here's my crazy prediction: in five to ten years, App State and Ga. Southern elect either to move to the FBS, or they attempt to form a new conference with UTC, maybe CofC UNCG, and schools from the Big South and southern CAA. That wouldn't be a good thing, necessarily, as it would end rivalries I like with Elon, Furman, and The Citadel.

Go ahead, do some name-calling or "people like you"-ing all you want. I think I've got some good points.

[IndianaAppMan]

gophoenix, i think you had a good point about App State joining the SoCon with members who weren't similar to them. It looks like William & Mary, VMI, Richmond, Marshall, ECU, The Citadel, Davidson, and Furman were the other members of the SoCon when App State joined in 1970. At that time, there were four public schools (although W&M has much more of a private school "feel" to it), three private schools, and two state military colleges.

Here's another theory: the SoCon has been a revolving door since practically Day One. The 80's seemed pretty stable; otherwise, there seems to be something causing conference members to be discontent.

[Saint3333]

You will know that you have arrived when you are excited about your own team, regardless of the team you are playing.

Yeah I guess the LSUs, Michigans, Floridas of the world haven't arrived because their fans complain about playing FCS and lower level FBS programs at home.

[gophoenix]

gophoenix, i think you had a good point about App State joining the SoCon with members who weren't similar to them. It looks like William & Mary, VMI, Richmond, Marshall, ECU, The Citadel, Davidson, and Furman were the other members of the SoCon when App State joined in 1970. At that time, there were four public schools (although W&M has much more of a private school "feel" to it), three private schools, and two state military colleges.

Here's another theory: the SoCon has been a revolving door since practically Day One. The 80's seemed pretty stable; otherwise, there seems to be something causing conference members to be discontent.

I wouldn't say discontent. I think the SoCon since the SEC/ACC break has been one of those developmental conferences. They are one of the best in football for what they are. But when schools want a bit more, they leave for the place that provides that "bit more." I really, really don't think there is discontent in the management level of the conference between the schools. But there is discontent at the fan level at times.

For the most part, the SoCon (from a football member standpoint) has been a conference that grows programs into something better. The only cases against that are VMI (who left), ETSU (who disbanded), George Washington (who disbanded). You could argue The University of the South, but they were SEC when they de-emphasized sports.

But overall it is a superiority complex. Your fans can't get excited about X, Y and Z teams. But why would teams in FBS care about playing you? And why would your fans care about playing the teams like MTSU, Troy and those types any more than teams in FCS that aren't top level teams?

[IndianaAppMan]

But overall it is a superiority complex. Your fans can't get excited about X, Y and Z teams. But why would teams in FBS care about playing you? And why would your fans care about playing the teams like MTSU, Troy and those types any more than teams in FCS that aren't top level teams?

It's not a superiority complex. I sincerely don't think it's that at all. Unfortunately, the impression most of App's SoCon rivals that is portrayed often on AGS and at games is from the 5% of App fans who use profanity or downright arrogance to get their points across.

My point was that, when you look at so many other conferences like I mentioned before, the composition is normally very, very similar schools. I'm just saying that I'm worried there might be resentment between the two schools. You're probably right, that it's mostly just from fans, but I'm concerned that it could be from administrations, too. Pure conjecture, admittedly.

Is App State different from Elon, Furman, or Samford? You bet your bottom-dollar it is! I went to App State and my wife went to Elon. I also grew up in Greenville, and I know numerous Furman alums and have been around the school quite a bit. I also lived in Burlington for a year and a half, most of which time I spent time with my wife and her friends while getting acquainted with the area. I've never been to Samford (or even Birmingham), but I hear it's very similar to Furman, except that it has retained its ties to the Baptist church, whereas Furman broke off in the early '90's. That said, the dynamics of these different schools are very different. Admittedly, the academic programs are stronger at the private schools. Elon has a law school now, for cryin out loud! Appalachian State is building its reputation more and more each year, although its priority is to be a premier mid-sized school focused on teaching and undergraduates.

It was pretty obvious to me, at least back between '02 and '05, that Elon wasn't really into school spirit. There was more cheering at the Homecoming halftime than when the team scored. I hope that's changed since Elon improved in football.

Maybe one of the biggest differences is that Elon and Furman (as well as Wofford & Samford) would NEVER consider moving up to FBS. Without a larger alumni base, state funding, or an enormous endowment like Duke's, Wake', or Vanderbilt's, I couldn't imagine any FCS private school making such a move. (That's not a bad thing at all.) On the flip side, consider the multi-million dollar renovations that Ga. Southern and App are undertaking. One can't help but wonder if they're both considering moving to the FBS. (For the record, the only satisfactory move, in my mind, would be if App moved to the Big East. Fat chance of that.) Still, is there not a difference in philosophy for the athletics programs, just as there is in academics?

[IndianaAppMan]

I would dread Sun Belt membership if that were to happen. Maybe MTSU and Troy State could provide decent rivalry--MTSU since it's not too far, Troy State because we had a short home-and-home series with them in the early '00's. It'd be quite a gamble though. Most people would want ACC, but there's no way that happens, especially with that perfect number of 12; besides, the non-North Carolina schools wouldn't want a fifth competitor from the Tar Heel state. C-USA would allow for an ECU rivalry (flatlands vs. mountains). Renewing the Marshall series could be a good sell, too.

Otherwise, I think App vs. Rice or FIU or even Southern Miss might not go over well. The nice thing about the SoCon is that its members are so close by. It's easier to sell tickets when fans know people from their opponents' universities.

[Jerbearasu]

I would dread Sun Belt membership if that were to happen. Maybe MTSU and Troy State could provide decent rivalry--MTSU since it's not too far, Troy State because we had a short home-and-home series with them in the early '00's. It'd be quite a gamble though. Most people would want ACC, but there's no way that happens, especially with that perfect number of 12; besides, the non-North Carolina schools wouldn't want a fifth competitor from the Tar Heel state. C-USA would allow for an ECU rivalry (flatlands vs. mountains). Renewing the Marshall series could be a good sell, too.

Otherwise, I think App vs. Rice or FIU or even Southern Miss might not go over well. The nice thing about the SoCon is that its members are so close by. It's easier to sell tickets when fans know people from their opponents' universities.

There is no way anyone in their right mind thinks App will be in the ACC... We will never have that type of a national following like all ACC schools have. The best thing that could happen would be a few conferences like the MAC, SunBelt and CUSA splitting up and taking a few teams from each to build a new conference. Many App fans including myself would like to get a rivalry going with ECU and Marshall again.

I am not sure if you have ever heard of the analogy that you don't want to own the most expensive house in the neighborhood. You really want to own the cheapest because the better houses around you will bring up your value. Right now App is the biggest house in the neighborhood. Other SoCon schools are happy when we go to their place because we will bring 8k fans with us (less the further away it is like Chatty) while they bring 1k into our place when they come (and GSU is not included in this category, their fans travel well too). My point is that other schools are getting the better end of us being in the conference.

You are completely right that we wouldn't do well in a conference with Rice or FIU or even in the SunBelt with teams like North Texas but if we can form something with ECU, Marshall, Troy, W Kentucky, and maybe pick off a few of the top FCS teams I think we'd jump at the chance...

[IndianaAppMan]

You are completely right that we wouldn't do well in a conference with Rice or FIU or even in the SunBelt with teams like North Texas but if we can form something with ECU, Marshall, Troy, W Kentucky, and maybe pick off a few of the top FCS teams I think we'd jump at the chance...

Great points you have there! If App were to move, I'd like it to be a regional conference like we have in the Southern right now. What would you think of this mix: Troy, UAB, MTSU, Western Kentucky, Georgia Southern, App State, ECU, James Madison, & Marshall.

Here's a big concern I'd have about App, though, if it were to try to move up to FBS: How would App entice visits from big-time opponents? With no airport, could you imagine, for instance, Illinois being willing to fly two hours to Charlotte, only to have to rent out a bus and ride another two hours to Boone? The presence of an airport is one huge advantage most schools would have over App in a move to FBS, including Western Kentucky.

By the way, I don't think I'd mentioned this yet: Welcome to the SoCon, Samford! I remember going to a Furman game in the late 90's when you guys gave Furman a great game. I'm glad we will have a balanced, 4 home, 4 away schedule now in conference.

[Jerbearasu]

Great points you have there! If App were to move, I'd like it to be a regional conference like we have in the Southern right now. What would you think of this mix: Troy, UAB, MTSU, Western Kentucky, Georgia Southern, App State, ECU, James Madison, & Marshall.

Here's a big concern I'd have about App, though, if it were to try to move up to FBS: How would App entice visits from big-time opponents? With no airport, could you imagine, for instance, Illinois being willing to fly two hours to Charlotte, only to have to rent out a bus and ride another two hours to Boone? The presence of an airport is one huge advantage most schools would have over App in a move to FBS, including Western Kentucky.

By the way, I don't think I'd mentioned this yet: Welcome to the SoCon, Samford! I remember going to a Furman game in the late 90's when you guys gave Furman a great game. I'm glad we will have a balanced, 4 home, 4 away schedule now in conference.

My personal preference would be to replace MTSU with Western Carolina just because I want to keep that rivalry. As for the airport I understand that it is a concern. One thing I would say is that even when you fly into Charlotte it is still about a 45 min drive to UNCC same with teams that go to UNC. They will typically fly into Raleigh and then have to drive over to Chapel Hill. I think there are a few FBS schools with long drives from airports though. I'm sure not many are an hour and a half drive but I just don't see that being a major sticking point.

App won't be able to entice big programs to come to Boone. I don't have disillusions that we would see the Oklahoma Sooners or USC Trojans butting heads with us in Boone but we should be able to get some mediocre ones every once in a while. VT has a series with ECU. So does UNC and NCSU with all of those teams willing to go to Greenville. I think we could get teams like that to come to Boone eventually. It may take 10-15 years but it would happen some time. Either way even if we could get home/home series with teams like Troy or Akron I would still consider that an upgrade from teams like Gardner Webb. I just don't see us expanding our stadium like we are to keep playing teams like Samford and Elon year after year.

[AppMan]

You will know that you have arrived when you are excited about your own team, regardless of the team you are playing.

You're right. ASU hasn't arrived.

[AppMan]

As far as AppMan is concerned... there's no point is responding to someone who starts a post off with insults.

I suppose that is somehow worse than positioning an insult somewhere else in the post.

[AppMan]

The conference is still 7 public schools and only 5 private schools. I'd hardly say that the private schools are "taking over".

Nice try, but this is a football discussion. How many of the public schools play football as opposed to the private institutions? I realize The Citadel is technically a public school, but you would be hard pressed to find many other public universities like them.

[AppMan]

AppMan, I don't know how you feel about the thought of App one day moving to FBS, but I think you made a good point against it by saying this. If we App fans would have trouble getting excited about playing Samford, a team that may remind of us the rivalry we share with Furman or Elon, how would we be able to get excited about playing Troy State, Arkansas State, MTSU, Tulane, Southern Miss, Fla. Int'l., or Rice? (The only C-USA or Sun Belt rivalries that might work would be ECU or Marshall, but I digress.)

Personally, I think Samford will develop rivalries well in the SoCon with larger and smaller schools alike. They're only two states away from most of the conference! Imagine what it's like for Montana playing Northern Arizona, or NDSU playing Youngstown!

I am solidly in favor of going FBS if / when we can find the right conference situation. Our rivalry with Furman is unique primarily because we have been playing them 30+ years. As institutions go we have a ton of differences that often prohibits our two schools from seeing eye to eye on what we believe is best for the conference. What a lot of people have a hard time getting their head around is how different college football was in the days before ESPN, 24-7 media hype, big money TV contracts, and huge athletic budgets. There is no comparison between the excitement level our fans would have between playing Samford and those other schools you mentioned, with the exception of Fla International. Schools in the Big Sky have no choice but to travel great distances for games, we don't. I am convinced there will be another shake up in college football in the not so distant future. There is mounting pressure for a playoff in the FBS, but it will be at most an 8 team affair involving the 6 BCS leagues and a couple of at-large spots. The remaining FBS schools will practically be forced to link up with the larger FCS schools. One look at the expanding athletic facilities at schools like ASU, JMU, Delaware, and GSU, clearly indicate they are separating themselves from the rest of the pack in the mid Atlantic region. Toss in Marshall, ODU’s new program, and the possibility of a program at UNCC and you have some interesting possibilities for an really nice all sports conference.

[gophoenix]

I am solidly in favor of going FBS if / when we can find the right conference situation. Our rivalry with Furman is unique primarily because we have been playing them 30+ years. As institutions go we have a ton of differences that often prohibits our two schools from seeing eye to eye on what we believe is best for the conference. What a lot of people have a hard time getting their head around is how different college football was in the days before ESPN, 24-7 media hype, big money TV contracts, and huge athletic budgets. There is no comparison between the excitement level our fans would have between playing Samford and those other schools you mentioned, with the exception of Fla International. Schools in the Big Sky have no choice but to travel great distances for games, we don't. I am convinced there will be another shake up in college football in the not so distant future. There is mounting pressure for a playoff in the FBS, but it will be at most an 8 team affair involving the 6 BCS leagues and a couple of at-large spots. The remaining FBS schools will practically be forced to link up with the larger FCS schools. One look at the expanding athletic facilities at schools like ASU, JMU, Delaware, and GSU, clearly indicate they are separating themselves from the rest of the pack in the mid Atlantic region. Toss in Marshall, ODU’s new program, and the possibility of a program at UNCC and you have some interesting possibilities for an really nice all sports conference.

xrolleyesx

More of this. And there is still nothing that says in a repositioned setup that Furman, Elon, Samford, The Citadel, Coastal, Liberty, Western, UTC, Richmond, William & Mary and all the "non-larger FCS schools" can't or won't put together what is needed to do this outside silly stadium size rules. School size has nothing to do with it, it is about funding, plain and simple. And since all the above mentioned schools have absolutely no problem paying top dollar for coaches on par with the non-BCS FBS schools and fully funding scholarships there is no reason to think in a "realigned" system that they wouldn't be playing at the top level either.

xrolleyesx
Also, I have yet to put an insult to you at the beginning or end of a post.

Also, you have still yet to post why or how there is remotely even close to a mentality difference when it comes to sports between private, smaller publics and what you call "larger" FCS schools (or what you term publics vs privates in the SoCon). Heck, conference voting isn't even split along public/private or large/small lines. The ETSU deal is proof of that.

It is just much more of the same from you. You don't like playing "us." You and others can't get excited about playing "us." Therefore, "we" must be left behind to further some separation that means something to people like you.

[gophoenix]

It's not a superiority complex. I sincerely don't think it's that at all. Unfortunately, the impression most of App's SoCon rivals that is portrayed often on AGS and at games is from the 5% of App fans who use profanity or downright arrogance to get their points across.

My point was that, when you look at so many other conferences like I mentioned before, the composition is normally very, very similar schools. I'm just saying that I'm worried there might be resentment between the two schools. You're probably right, that it's mostly just from fans, but I'm concerned that it could be from administrations, too. Pure conjecture, admittedly.

Is App State different from Elon, Furman, or Samford? You bet your bottom-dollar it is! I went to App State and my wife went to Elon. I also grew up in Greenville, and I know numerous Furman alums and have been around the school quite a bit. I also lived in Burlington for a year and a half, most of which time I spent time with my wife and her friends while getting acquainted with the area. I've never been to Samford (or even Birmingham), but I hear it's very similar to Furman, except that it has retained its ties to the Baptist church, whereas Furman broke off in the early '90's. That said, the dynamics of these different schools are very different. Admittedly, the academic programs are stronger at the private schools. Elon has a law school now, for cryin out loud! Appalachian State is building its reputation more and more each year, although its priority is to be a premier mid-sized school focused on teaching and undergraduates.

It was pretty obvious to me, at least back between '02 and '05, that Elon wasn't really into school spirit. There was more cheering at the Homecoming halftime than when the team scored. I hope that's changed since Elon improved in football.

Maybe one of the biggest differences is that Elon and Furman (as well as Wofford & Samford) would NEVER consider moving up to FBS. Without a larger alumni base, state funding, or an enormous endowment like Duke's, Wake', or Vanderbilt's, I couldn't imagine any FCS private school making such a move. (That's not a bad thing at all.) On the flip side, consider the multi-million dollar renovations that Ga. Southern and App are undertaking. One can't help but wonder if they're both considering moving to the FBS. (For the record, the only satisfactory move, in my mind, would be if App moved to the Big East. Fat chance of that.) Still, is there not a difference in philosophy for the athletics programs, just as there is in academics?

I disagree that there is even a difference in academics for publics and private schools. The goal is to get the best students in, break even as much as possible on money and position those kids the best way possible for jobs in the real world, maintain research all within the focused majors and offer the broadest array of areas for education that the student population will support. So Furman's or Elon's academics may rate a bit better than App. But schools like App and JMU are still rated nearly as high. So, when the schools broadly focus on the same types of things, how is the philosophy any different?

And when it comes to athletics. Again, the goal is to get the best students in that will do well in school while performing the best possible way on the field. How is that any different than what any public school does?

And why would you say that Elon or Furman, or any schools like them, would never consider going FBS? Outside of the stupid stadium and attendance rules, I see no reason why they couldn't or wouldn't. It's only about money and the larger the games, the more money alumni give. Every school out there is a testament to that, just aask any recent D-II moveup school. Heck, look at how our donation rates went up just after entering the SoCon from being in the Big South. And with Liberty having FBS as a goal for the next ten years, they could be the model for how any number of the other private schools pursue this.

[Saint3333]

So Elon is considering the FBS, that's news to me. They have one average season and average 6000 in attendance, but yeah you have a great point they could make it. I hope you guys still let ASU come play at Elon after the move.

[IndianaAppMan]

And why would you say that Elon or Furman, or any schools like them, would never consider going FBS? Outside of the stupid stadium and attendance rules, I see no reason why they couldn't or wouldn't. It's only about money and the larger the games, the more money alumni give. Every school out there is a testament to that, just aask any recent D-II moveup school. Heck, look at how our donation rates went up just after entering the SoCon from being in the Big South. And with Liberty having FBS as a goal for the next ten years, they could be the model for how any number of the other private schools pursue this.

After Furman beat UNC back in the late 90's, I asked a good buddy of mine who played football at Furman at the time if he could ever imagine Furman making a tranistion to what was then 1-A. Considering that their soccer team was in the top ten and their athletics program overall was and still is nationally respected, I figured that if any small university could succeed at the 1-A level, Furman could. He said there's no way because Furman was (and is) much more concerned with donations going towards academic research and enhancing campus beauty. Granted, I don't know if there have been any changes since then, or at Elon, but my impression is that athletics there are truly for student-athletes, and they would not want an FBS program to be disruptive to that tradition. I think it's fantastic that Furman and Elon have their priorities straight on that matter.

Here's another reason why I seriously doubt Furman would have any interest in moving to FBS: despite remaining a reliable national power, not unlike App, GSU, Montana, Delaware, Youngstown, UNI, and perhaps I few others I'm failing to mention, the school has neither made any stadium enhancements going back to the 80's, nor has it added any other facilities improvements specifically for football. GSU, App, James Madison, Delaware, and Montana, on the other hand, are doing so, which helps get them prepared for a move to FBS, even if it's a move they don't make until years down the road.

Even if Elon were to try to move up to 1-A, they're a long, long way off from being ready for that. They're not like any of the new Florida programs, which have huge alumni bases from which to draw visitors and dollars. The reason there are attendance requirements set by the NCAA is to protect FBS teams from losing money. It costs a ton more money to run an FBS program than FCS, and a minimum revenue stream (via ticket sales) is necessary. Elon is nowhere close to that minimum. The team wouldn't be able to survive on donations alone without a packed-out house in the 30,000's. Look at some of the MAC schools. They're on the border of being forced down to FCS due to low attendance, and that's with much larger alumni bases than Elon or even App State. They're losing tons of money on athletics because of that. (This, by the way, would be one of my worries about the possibility of App moving to FBS.)

This isn't a slam on Elon or Furman. Trust me: I LOVE to see Elon do well whenever they're not playing App, but that doesn't mean they would be successful moving up. If they could be, more power to 'em if that's what they want.

By the way, I'll keep my eye on Liberty if they're really pursuing FBS. Maybe I'm being cynical, but they might end up serving schools like Elon as an example of why NOT to go to FBS.

[IndianaAppMan]

I just thought I'd share something else for gophoenix, since the idea that universities should not be funded (or "subsidized") by the state was brought up.

When I was a high school senior, I applied to five fairly different kinds of schools and was accepted to each of them: Florida State, Clemson, Furman, Mars Hill, and Appalachian State. I narrowed my choice to (1) Furman and (2) App State. App State, already costing less due to the "subsidizing," offered me scholarship money. Furman, which was willing to accept me but expected $23,000 a year to be no sweat, didn't offer me anything. It made App State more or less an automatic decsion. I was disappointed for a while, but after my first three days at App State, I was so incredibly happy that I ended up at App instead of Furman that I wouldn't have changed a single thing. Not getting scholarship money to Furman was maybe one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I make zero apologies for you or anyone else in this country whose tax dollars made it possible to go towards MY education, or towards anyone else's at public schools. The fact is that there are not enough scholarships available at private schools to pay for all its students to attend them. That's why there are public schools. Our country doesn't want just the upper crust of the country who are fortunate enough to get scholarships OR just the wealthy to have access to a college education. Our country wants higher education to be accessible to anyone who is qualified enough to get into its universities. I am NOT sorry for attending a state school. I am NOT sorry that you chose to attend a private school but still have tax dollars go towards public schools because that was a choice YOU made. I am NOT sorry when my tax dollars go towards public schools, even though I have no children. I am NOT sorry that my taxes go towards public transportation, police officers, and much more, because even if I do not directly benefit from them, I know that it makes this country a better place to live

There is certainly a place in this country for private schools; they do not have to abide by the same restrictions required by state schools. Elon can have a 4-1-4 system and do many other programs that make itself unique because it's private. The catch is that funding is independent, and that's what makes the costs higher.

[SoCon48]

Ditto

[OL FU]

JSU > Samford no doubt about it, unfortunately the SoCon officials, who were looking for a travel partner for UTC, selected the wrong Alabama program.

AS state before, why would you pick a school that has already said we are moving to FBS. Maybe somebody else should have been selected but not Jax St for that reason alone.

[OL FU]

The conference is still 7 public schools and only 5 private schools. I'd hardly say that the private schools are "taking over".

A does of realityxthumbsupx

[OL FU]

Personally, I think Samford will develop rivalries well in the SoCon with larger and smaller schools alike. .

I already hate themxmadx xrotatehx xsmiley_wix :D

[citdog]

goddamn fake BULLDOGS!

[OL FU]

gophoenix, i think you had a good point about App State joining the SoCon with members who weren't similar to them. It looks like William & Mary, VMI, Richmond, Marshall, ECU, The Citadel, Davidson, and Furman were the other members of the SoCon when App State joined in 1970. At that time, there were four public schools (although W&M has much more of a private school "feel" to it), three private schools, and two state military colleges.

Here's another theory: the SoCon has been a revolving door since practically Day One. The 80's seemed pretty stable; otherwise, there seems to be something causing conference members to be discontent.

For the first 40 years of SoCon existence it was simply too large, upwards of 20+schools. The last major shakeouts in the 60s and early 70's I believe were actually due in large part to the residual effect of the ACC split in 50's. I think since the late 70's the conference has been fairly stable. The core is the same. Marshall left but I believe that may have been their plan all along. VMI left but the truth is they were no longer competitive in FB. ETSU choked on a stupid administration. Other than that things have been fairly consistent.

[OL FU]

xrolleyesx


It is just much more of the same from you. You don't like playing "us." You and others can't get excited about playing "us." Therefore, "we" must be left behind to further some separation that means something to people like you.

They seem to get pretty excited when they play usxeyebrowx xnodx

[OL FU]

Talk of FBS for Furman has me a quiverxlolx

In the event that football is reorganized, Furman will find a place it can be competitive and that is where it will reside for football. The qualification is that I cannot imagine Furman sacrificing D-I status in the event that such a reorg put that in jeopardy. Furman is not "liberal" to the extent that its professors abhor the sport but spending sufficient dollars for even small time FBS funding is just not conceivable in my opinion.

[OL FU]

I just thought I'd share something else for gophoenix, since the idea that universities should not be funded (or "subsidized") by the state was brought up.

When I was a high school senior, I applied to five fairly different kinds of schools and was accepted to each of them: Florida State, Clemson, Furman, Mars Hill, and Appalachian State. I narrowed my choice to (1) Furman and (2) App State. App State, already costing less due to the "subsidizing," offered me scholarship money. Furman, which was willing to accept me but expected $23,000 a year to be no sweat, didn't offer me anything. It made App State more or less an automatic decsion. I was disappointed for a while, but after my first three days at App State, I was so incredibly happy that I ended up at App instead of Furman that I wouldn't have changed a single thing. Not getting scholarship money to Furman was maybe one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I make zero apologies for you or anyone else in this country whose tax dollars made it possible to go towards MY education, or towards anyone else's at public schools. The fact is that there are not enough scholarships available at private schools to pay for all its students to attend them. That's why there are public schools. Our country doesn't want just the upper crust of the country who are fortunate enough to get scholarships OR just the wealthy to have access to a college education. Our country wants higher education to be accessible to anyone who is qualified enough to get into its universities. I am NOT sorry for attending a state school. I am NOT sorry that you chose to attend a private school but still have tax dollars go towards public schools because that was a choice YOU made. I am NOT sorry when my tax dollars go towards public schools, even though I have no children. I am NOT sorry that my taxes go towards public transportation, police officers, and much more, because even if I do not directly benefit from them, I know that it makes this country a better place to live

There is certainly a place in this country for private schools; they do not have to abide by the same restrictions required by state schools. Elon can have a 4-1-4 system and do many other programs that make itself unique because it's private. The catch is that funding is independent, and that's what makes the costs higher.


When I attending FU it was a whopping $2500 per yearxnodx
I love my alma mater, but if today I was a senior in high school, Furman would not have been a consideration. :(

[Saint3333]

AS state before, why would you pick a school that has already said we are moving to FBS. Maybe somebody else should have been selected but not Jax St for that reason alone.

Do you really think JSU is headed to the FBS in the next 7-8 years? I just don't see it.

[EKU05]

Do you really think JSU is headed to the FBS in the next 7-8 years? I just don't see it.

I think Jax wil absolutely do it IF they can find a conference home. That will be easier said than done. Our AD at EKU has as much as said that the lack of conference opportunity is the main reason we aren't pushing for it more right now.

[IndianaAppMan]

I think Jax wil absolutely do it IF they can find a conference home. That will be easier said than done. Our AD at EKU has as much as said that the lack of conference opportunity is the main reason we aren't pushing for it more right now.

I'll be the first to admit that the idea of my alma mater moving to FBS is intriguing, but I still don't know if it would be for the better. You've got a good point about the conference issue. ECU, App's eastern neighbor, is frustrated in C-USA. Their travel costs are killing them. They have no natural rivals. They desperately want to be in the Big East, but they'd be up against Temple, UCF, and Memphis. From a television market, that's a tough call. The best they can do for nearby rivalries is to schedule close ACC games, West Virginia, and South Carolina. App would have the exact same problems unless conferences are shaken up dramatically.

Jacksonville State seems it would be in the same boat. I'm sure they'd theoretically fit well with South Alabama, Troy, UAB, MTSU, Southern Miss, and others, but there are no openings.

The fact remains that Jax State would never have a chance at the SEC since they already have 12 teams. ECU's a very long shot for the Big East, and App State would be even longer.

If App State or Jax State, wouldn't they have that constant frustration of not being in a great conference? Wouldn't they find themselves in ECU's predicament? And besides, isn't it better to be frustrated in 1AA but having a real shot at winnning national titles? Couldn't the travel budget in 1A create more debt than 1AA does?

Just some food for thought...

[gophoenix]

I just thought I'd share something else for gophoenix, since the idea that universities should not be funded (or "subsidized") by the state was brought up.

When I was a high school senior, I applied to five fairly different kinds of schools and was accepted to each of them: Florida State, Clemson, Furman, Mars Hill, and Appalachian State. I narrowed my choice to (1) Furman and (2) App State. App State, already costing less due to the "subsidizing," offered me scholarship money. Furman, which was willing to accept me but expected $23,000 a year to be no sweat, didn't offer me anything. It made App State more or less an automatic decsion. I was disappointed for a while, but after my first three days at App State, I was so incredibly happy that I ended up at App instead of Furman that I wouldn't have changed a single thing. Not getting scholarship money to Furman was maybe one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I make zero apologies for you or anyone else in this country whose tax dollars made it possible to go towards MY education, or towards anyone else's at public schools. The fact is that there are not enough scholarships available at private schools to pay for all its students to attend them. That's why there are public schools. Our country doesn't want just the upper crust of the country who are fortunate enough to get scholarships OR just the wealthy to have access to a college education. Our country wants higher education to be accessible to anyone who is qualified enough to get into its universities. I am NOT sorry for attending a state school. I am NOT sorry that you chose to attend a private school but still have tax dollars go towards public schools because that was a choice YOU made. I am NOT sorry when my tax dollars go towards public schools, even though I have no children. I am NOT sorry that my taxes go towards public transportation, police officers, and much more, because even if I do not directly benefit from them, I know that it makes this country a better place to live

There is certainly a place in this country for private schools; they do not have to abide by the same restrictions required by state schools. Elon can have a 4-1-4 system and do many other programs that make itself unique because it's private. The catch is that funding is independent, and that's what makes the costs higher.

I never said that I do not believe universities should be funded by the state. I am simply making an argument for private schools in a capitalistic society and what one aspect of them vs public schools really mean. And that private school people aren't a bunch of snotty, rich kids since both types of people attend both public and private universities.

But the argument could be made in your case to say that maybe you should have been applying to other private schools that would give you a scholarship in a truly free market type of educational system. I don't know what you situation was and therefore I can't comment on why Furman offered you nothing. And personally, I don't care because it really isn't relevant to the discussion on public vs private schools.

The whole point of me posting all of that was to say that I am tired of public school people calling private school grads elitist. After all, private school people are responsible for covering their own educational needs. While public school people dish out the private school insults like this while expecting everyone to cover their needs. That isn't the way a free market works. When a public school is cheaper, it is cheaper for a reason - taxes subsidize the cost so a public school can run at an ultimate loss without impacting operation. End of story. I'm sorry Furman didn't give you a scholarship. But here's a thought, in a truly capitalistic society, you shop for the best, most affordable option.

Just because you want to drive a BMW doesn't mean the government covers the extra for you to have a BMW when all you can afford is a Kia.


My personal preference would be to replace MTSU with Western Carolina just because I want to keep that rivalry. As for the airport I understand that it is a concern. One thing I would say is that even when you fly into Charlotte it is still about a 45 min drive to UNCC same with teams that go to UNC. They will typically fly into Raleigh and then have to drive over to Chapel Hill. I think there are a few FBS schools with long drives from airports though. I'm sure not many are an hour and a half drive but I just don't see that being a major sticking point.


xrolleyesx

Completely false statement. Maybe you guys take 8k to Western, but you haven't to Furman or Elon recently. But I love hoe this number just keeps getting inflated every time this tired argument comes up. I have said this time and again. 3000 fans looks much bigger in a setting of 13,000 than it does in a setting of 25,000 and so you people get your perceptions off pretty hard.


So Elon is considering the FBS, that's news to me. They have one average season and average 6000 in attendance, but yeah you have a great point they could make it. I hope you guys still let ASU come play at Elon after the move.

xrolleyesx xoopsx
Typical. Did I say Elon was considering a move to FBS? As a matter of fact, no I didn't.



In the event that football is reorganized, Furman will find a place it can be competitive and that is where it will reside for football. The qualification is that I cannot imagine Furman sacrificing D-I status in the event that such a reorg put that in jeopardy. Furman is not "liberal" to the extent that its professors abhor the sport but spending sufficient dollars for even small time FBS funding is just not conceivable in my opinion.

And that is the point I'm making. Some of the private schools with the resources behind them (big donors that would step it up to make it work) will not sacrifice D-I status if a re-org of the type that AppMan describes every comes to fruition. Personally, I see those private schools being Richmond, Elon, Furman, Samford, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, Bucknell, Lafayette, Hofstra, Liberty and Wofford. They have too much invested in being a full fledged D-I that they wouldn't put forth that effort to be at the top level if the FCS and non-BCS choose to merge together.

In fact, if that type of re-org ever happens, I see the NCAA basically consolidating D-I, putting in a I-AA to I-A type of range of requirements and telling schools to step up or step down. Personally, I see a good half or more of the division being able to make it work.

[OL FU]

Do you really think JSU is headed to the FBS in the next 7-8 years? I just don't see it.

No but why look foolish and invite someone who has already announced their intention is to leavexeyebrowx

[Cocky]

Do you really think JSU is headed to the FBS in the next 7-8 years? I just don't see it.

Yes, you need to meet most of our BOT members. I believe they will even move without a conference. Don't attack me about this being a bad idea because I agree. This is just the route I think JSU would take if no conference is available.

[AppMan]

So Elon is considering the FBS, that's news to me. They have one average season and average 6000 in attendance, but yeah you have a great point they could make it. I hope you guys still let ASU come play at Elon after the move.

:>)