Which ex-FCS program made the biggest mistake by moving up or dropping the program?

[bonarae]

We often think of the ex-FCS teams who made a splash after they moved up, e.g. Marshall, JMU and App State. However, we often think of other programs whom we dearly miss in the FCS and currently living post-football lives, e.g., Boston U, Hofstra, etc.

Which ex-FCS program (who moved up or dropped) has made us scratching our heads, even many years after they did their homework as they could and moved on from our subdivision?

[gravalico]

We often think of the ex-FCS teams who made a splash after they moved up, e.g. Marshall, JMU and App State. However, we often think of other programs whom we dearly miss in the FCS and currently living post-football lives, e.g., Boston U, Hofstra, etc.

Which ex-FCS program (who moved up or dropped) has made us scratching our heads, even many years after they did their homework as they could and moved on from our subdivision?I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake. UConn and UMass leap to mind. I suspect there are spreadsheets on Athletic Director's computers that actually determine success. Who knows? Perhaps the revenues make it worthwhile. From purely a "fan interest" perspective, I think it has been proven that this part of the country just doesn't care enough about big time college football. Hell, even BC is a bit of a punch line that only raises eyebrows when they break five hundred.

I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake. I am not a fan of either team but I was always interested to see who won the Delaware vs. Nova game. It had a significant bearing on the football landscape in the Northeast. Delaware vs. Liberty? Not so much.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

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[UNHWildcat18]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

[NY Crusader 2010]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

Disagree on this point. Although Hofstra has more of the vibe of an urban campus. I still think they made a mistake. They did recently launch a med school though, so perhaps they viewed football as a waste of resources.

Culturally, I don't think there's much of a thirst for a football team in Burlington.

Agree with you on NU, BU and Delaware. Northeastern was basically playing their home games at Brookline HS, but with Northeastern logos on the turf. BU -- see UVM. The administration and student body at BU likely have no interest in bringing back the program. BU football is a program with a lot of history though and played in a historic stadium. The grandstand there used to be a part of Braves Field. And from a Holy Cross perspective, I'd love to have a Boston football school in the Patriot League.

CAA losing UD to FBS definitely hurts.

[gravalico]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...God the trip up to Burlington though...yikes. Gorgeous though it is, it's a long lonely bus trip.

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[UNHWildcat18]

God the trip up to Burlington though...yikes. Gorgeous though it is, it's a long lonely bus trip.

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The international airport would definitely help over long bus rides. I know in reality UVM wouldn't have been able to keep up with the other Yankee teams, just would be nice to still play them in football.

[mainejeff]

The international airport would definitely help over long bus rides. I know in reality UVM wouldn't have been able to keep up with the other Yankee teams, just would be nice to still play them in football.

Yeah the only teams that would have been taking a bus would be the other New England teams and Albany......the same ones that do it in America East.

[Catamount87]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

[ElCid]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

Good point. For a laugh, go see Ursus's signature line. That explains a lot. Lol.

[MR. CHICKEN]

.........GEORGIA STATE...DUH AGS...ASS CLOWN....UH MOVE UPS.......IS 4-2 IN BOWLS.....xwhistlex.....AWK!

[clenz]

I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake.
I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

Sent from my SM-F711U using TapatalkThat sentence right there. The NE always seems strange in a college athletics sense to me. None of them are truly supported in a full way outside of a couple specific sports (Nova and UCONN basketball). Life in that area of the country as a college program is damned if you do and damned if you don't. UD is TBD but I don't think they make the same mistakes that UMASS did, which gives them a leg up.

For that same reason I don't think any of those that dropped the program made a mistake either. As time has gone on, and the increase in required support to remain competitive has accelerated, I think Boston and Northeastern would be struggling like crazy and be in super unstable situations just as we find most of the CAA football programs now where everyone is just moving to move and maybe a split is needed into multiple conferences, maybe it isn't, etc. Especially in the case of Boston with hockey. That was their #1 sport and football just kind of acted as a financial drag to hockey succeeding, in a way.

The Northeast just has so many times, so many small schools, and is so pro-sports heavy that colleges out there are stuck in their ability to truly compete with rare exceptions.

[clenz]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.
GSU lost Frtiz at a bad time.

Going through that transition and then leaning on a guy like Tyson Summers was never going to work - and I'm not sure he would have worked at the FCS level. They were not only transitioning from FCS to FBS but transitioning the identity of their program. Lundsford (IIRC) had them rolling a bi - with a long history at GSU - but he was poached and it fell apart under the interim. If Helton sticks around (but we know he won't if he has any success), I think they can be alright again. He had them in a bowl the last 2 years after Whitney, or whatever it is had them at like 2-9 before getting fired. 6-7 each of the last 2 years isn't great ,but considering what he took over it's okay. The SBC is greatly improved though, so it's not going to be easy. They were 6-2 before losing their last 5 this year. Don't know if the 6 were inflated or something fell apart late, but they have the ability to be a 8-10 win SBC team with the right leader.

[rhowdyram]

UMass is the big example. They shouldn't have moved up in the first place. If they were going to move up they should have made the move a decade earlier when the program was running well. They should have had massive stadium improvements ready to go if they were going to move up. They never should have played their first FBS games at Gillette, an hour and 45 minutes away from campus, but they had to because their stadium wasn't prepared to host FBS games. They shouldn't have hired Charley Molnar to be the head coach to start their FBS journey. They should have moved all sports to the MAC when they had a chance. They never should have gone independent. They shouldn't move to Conference USA now. Basically they have screwed the pooch every step of the way and almost every decision they make is the wrong one because they keep trying to fix a previous mistake instead of thinking about what will lead to success in the future.

[rhowdyram]

I honestly feel like any team that moves up in the Northeast is making a mistake. UConn and UMass leap to mind. I suspect there are spreadsheets on Athletic Director's computers that actually determine success. Who knows? Perhaps the revenues make it worthwhile. From purely a "fan interest" perspective, I think it has been proven that this part of the country just doesn't care enough about big time college football. Hell, even BC is a bit of a punch line that only raises eyebrows when they break five hundred.

I feel like Delaware is making the same mistake. I am not a fan of either team but I was always interested to see who won the Delaware vs. Nova game. It had a significant bearing on the football landscape in the Northeast. Delaware vs. Liberty? Not so much.

As for teams who drop their programs, BU remains the program I feel should still be there. That was a shame.

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To me UConn didn't make a mistake moving up. How many schools were/are in a position to go right from 1AA/FCS to a BCS/Power 4/5 conference and are handed a $91 million dollar stadium?

Looking back, having the stadium 30 minutes from campus hurts them, they've made some very bad coaching decisions, they've had bad conference luck with all of the moving around, and I think becoming an independent to move all the other sports to the Big East was a mistake, but in the moment that decision to move up is completely defensible and I'm not sure you'd make a different decision even in hindsight.

[Mocs123]

From a performance/record standpoint, one could argue that Georgia Southern may have made a mistake by moving up. They are 65-61 (.515) and 3-3 in bowls games since 2014 with 5 losing seasons compared to App State's 95-35 (.730) and 7-1 in bowls games and no losing seasons.

App was ready financially to make the jump to FBS, I don't think Ga Southern was - I think they jumped on the ship when they had the chance but weren't ready.

And not that they've ever cared about anything other than football, but their basketball team is 0-12.

[JacksFan40]

In terms of on field results it’s obviously UMass. They’re 24-112 since moving up in 2012, have never appeared in a bowl, and have never been better than 4-8. They were a usually solid FCS team but are now at the absolute bottom of the barrel in the FBS. They don’t even have a conference, their football program only exists to cash checks from the money games against the P5. Their FBS tenure makes Idaho’s look great by comparison. At least Idaho made it to and won some bowls.

Outside of that I wouldn’t say anyone truly made a mistake by moving up. All of them have had varying degrees of success at the FBS level. Charlotte was maybe a mistake but they were never truly FCS. Time can only tell with Sam Houston, and soon Delaware and Kennesaw.

[DFW HOYA]

Don't forget Winston-Salem State, a former FCS team. They moved up from the CIAA, ran out of money, than went back to Division II.

Still, the only college football team that plays on a sanctioned NASCAR short track: Bowman Gray Stadium:

https://www.nascar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2022/04/19/Whelen63.jpg
.

[Go...gate]

Personally I don't think BU, NU or HU made a mistake.

The city of Boston doesn't give a **** about football outside of The New England Patriots. They barely care enough about BC. BU and NU are hockey schools in a professional sports city.

Hofstra I think realized long island also doesn't care about Football.

Personally I wish UVM still had football. They have nothing going on besides UVM sports up in Burlington. I guess they have the Vermont Lake monsters baseball team.

Losing UD to FBS still stings. Another flagship university gone from UNH's schedule...

Disagree strenuously on BU and Hofstra.

[UNHWildcat18]

Disagree strenuously on BU and Hofstra.

Interest was low, money was tight. I don’t they’d be doing well at all if they kept it. They could barely field a decent team then. How’s SBU doing? They’ve been bragging they should be FBS with a 25k stadium for years…

[mmiller_34]

Who could forget the third wheel in this D-II — > FCS transition?

SDSU
NDSU
Northern Colorado

All three came from the old NCC and founded the GWFC.

I think UNC may have been better off staying put.

[NY Crusader 2010]

.........GEORGIA STATE...DUH AGS...ASS CLOWN....UH MOVE UPS.......IS 4-2 IN BOWLS.....xwhistlex.....AWK!

Georgia State was something like 1-15 in 2 years in the CAA. I think they beat URI once and that was it. And then they've moved up, and done well in FBS for the most part.

[bonarae]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?

[Go Green]

To me UConn didn't make a mistake moving up. How many schools were/are in a position to go right from 1AA/FCS to a BCS/Power 4/5 conference and are handed a $91 million dollar stadium?

Looking back, having the stadium 30 minutes from campus hurts them, they've made some very bad coaching decisions, they've had bad conference luck with all of the moving around, and I think becoming an independent to move all the other sports to the Big East was a mistake, but in the moment that decision to move up is completely defensible and I'm not sure you'd make a different decision even in hindsight.

This.

if UConn made a "mistake" because they didn't foresee that the Big East would implode in football some fifteen years later... that's demanding a lot of the decision makers.

I suppose the one regrettable move UConn made was suing BC from leaving the Big East. Story I've heard repeatedly is that BC intentionally blocked UConn from joining the ACC as revenge. Who knows how it would have played out otherwise?

[Catamount87]

App was ready financially to make the jump to FBS, I don't think Ga Southern was - I think they jumped on the ship when they had the chance but weren't ready.

And not that they've ever cared about anything other than football, but their basketball team is 0-12.

Pretty much that was the opinion of many people outside of GSU, they weren't ready financially. Whereas App was very well prepared. As I recall, a lot of folks also felt GSU was pulling a "me too" move. I wouldn't be surprised if behind the scenes the Sun Belt was telling App that they needed to convince GSU to move up too.

[Catamount87]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?

I am pretty sure that answer is No. Go back to them starting football and they wanted in to SoCon but had to settle for the Big South. I had two SoCon ADs at the time tell me the SoCon said no because two things were clear, 1) KSU intended to move to FBS as soon as they could and 2) their enrollment and ability to generate athletic fees well above the rest of the SoCon would give them a massive financial advantage.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Any school that dropped football made a mistake!

[DFW HOYA]

Any school that dropped football made a mistake!

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

[Go Green]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

St. Mary's kind of sort of fit this bill for a while.

[DFW HOYA]

St. Mary's kind of sort of fit this bill for a while.

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

Success is defined in various ways. In terms of the publicity, basketball has brought St. Mary's (especially their rivalry with Gonzaga) a significant amount of notoriety. The only reason St. Mary's was part of my conscious prior to their winning ways under Bennett is the fact Lehigh traveled to Moraga in 1998 to play them in football. They made the trip to Bethlehem in 2003 which proved to be their final season.

[Go Green]

if memory serves, Penn had to scramble to find an alternative opponent on short notice when St. Mary's dropped football. I think they ended up playing Duquesne.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I am surprised to this day Hofstra dropped football. They had some good D3 and 1-AA teams from the mid 1980s through the mid-2000s, produced several NFL players, and had a nice facility. Plus, as far as Long Island goes, Hofstra was pretty easy to get to.

I will always have a soft spot for La Salle. Their demise came soon after I graduated from Temple. I got to know several players as my high school friend was in a fraternity (Delta Sig) with a lot of them. The Explores had a reasonable stadium in the middle of campus that was home to some epic Philly Catholic League battles.

[gravalico]

I am surprised to this day Hofstra dropped football. They had some good D3 and 1-AA teams from the mid 1980s through the mid-2000s, produced several NFL players, and had a nice facility. Plus, as far as Long Island goes, Hofstra was pretty easy to get to.

I will always have a soft spot for La Salle. Their demise came soon after I graduated from Temple. I got to know several players as my high school friend was in a fraternity (Delta Sig) with a lot of them. The Explores had a reasonable stadium in the middle of campus that was home to some epic Philly Catholic League battles.One of my less than pleasant memories was having our (Lafayette) ass handed to us by a Wayne Chrebet-led Hofstra team in 1991. That game couldn't end quickly enough.

On the pleasant memory side, I remember fondly taking part in some epic Philadelphia Catholic League battles in high-school. Go Carroll Patriots!

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[Mocs123]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

There are a few ways to look at that - Sure you can look at the every sport that a school sponsors, but to 99.9% of people - all they care about is football and men's basketball. Some schools also have good support for WBB, Baseball, or softball. I know there are some northern schools where Hockey is king - but I don't know anything about that. The point is, nobody besides parents and a very niche group is going to care how the Men's Tennis team did, or the Women's Beach Volleyball team did, or Women's Golf, Cross Country, etc. In most cases those sports exist to schools meet the minimum number of varsity sports and meet Title IX requirements.

So, if you look at all Sports, St. Mary's may not have done well (to be honest, I don't know much about St. Mary's), but my guess is they pour all of their resources into MBB and everything else is there because it has to be. So if St. Mary's increased the quality of their MBB program by dropping FB and brought more attention to the school, etc - it could be a positive. Personally, I think any sport is worth having only if you fund it and provide it enough resources to be successful - I don't mean you have to win 80% of your games every year, but nobody wants to watch any team that wins 20% of their games or less year after year - it doesn't matter what the sport is.

[Go...gate]

Interest was low, money was tight. I don’t they’d be doing well at all if they kept it. They could barely field a decent team then. How’s SBU doing? They’ve been bragging they should be FBS with a 25k stadium for years…

With regard to Hofstra, I believe the Patriot League bears some responsibility. Hofstra really wanted in to the PL and the PL kind of accepted the gestures of interest in the early to mid-1990s and then said no for reasons that remain unclear thirty years later. I know that Hofstra's administration felt a bit jilted. IMO, it was a damn shame. The school was agreeable on scholarship issues and had some synergies with the rest of the conference.

BU's decision to drop football was largely driven by its President, but that is another story.

[bonarae]

BU's decision to drop football was largely driven by its President, but that is another story.

Any books written about this a la Stagg's University (Robin Lester)? Or other books directly targeted at the dropping of football in colleges throughout history, like the book I mentioned in this post?

Hofstra's president (he still is there today sadly) I think copied Silber's approach.

Of course, don't forget the Pacific California Tigers. xsmhx (They were never FCS but they dropped football for good in 1996.)

[MR. CHICKEN]

Any books written about this a la Stagg's University (Robin Lester)? Or other books directly targeted at the dropping of football in colleges throughout history, like the book I mentioned in this post?

Hofstra's president (he still is there today sadly) I think copied Silber's approach.

Of course, don't forget the Pacific California Tigers. xsmhx (They were never FCS but they dropped football for good in 1996.)


33247

.........HOFSTRA'S...PREZ....THOUGHT IT MO' IMPORTANT....TA TURN OUT DOCTORS.....THAN NFL'ers.......SO FOOTBALL ALLOWANCES....WENT TA HELP.....START DUH MEDICAL SKOOL........BRAWK!

....IT'S ALL IN WIKI.....LADS.......AWK!

[Go...gate]

33247

.........HOFSTRA'S...PREZ....THOUGHT IT MO' IMPORTANT....TA TURN OUT DOCTORS.....THAN NFL'ers.......SO FOOTBALL ALLOWANCES....WENT TA HELP.....START DUH MEDICAL SKOOL........BRAWK!

....IT'S ALL IN WIKI.....LADS.......AWK!

Makes sense. Hofstra already had a very good law school.

[Grizzlies82]

Who could forget the third wheel in this D-II — > FCS transition?

SDSU
NDSU
Northern Colorado

All three came from the old NCC and founded the GWFC.

I think UNC may have been better off staying put.



This is rather like one of those toddler's games: "Which one of these doesn't belong with the others?"

I think I know the answer...
They play in the equivalent of a High School stadium.
I'm not sure if they have ever had a winning season since moving up.
They were brought into the Big Sky as a means of involving the Denver TV market. Yeah, right. xlolx

[Gangtackle11]

Delaware……check back here in 3 years or so when they are tired of sending all their athletic programs to Ruston, El Paso, Bowling Green, Las Cruces, etc. When they wonder why the stadium isnt full to see Sam Houston on a Tuesday night in October….xpeacex

[MR. CHICKEN]

Delaware……check back here in 3 years or so when they are tired of sending all their athletic programs to Ruston, El Paso, Bowling Green, Las Cruces, etc. When they wonder why the stadium isnt full to see Sam Houston on a Tuesday night in October….xpeacex



....ARE YOU & SITTIN' BULL.....DUH SAME GUY?..............xdeadhorsex...............AWK?

[Gangtackle11]

....ARE YOU & SITTIN' BULL.....DUH SAME GUY?..............xdeadhorsex...............AWK?

Could be….CarribeanHen thinks I have Monmouth roots……You guys need to compare notes. xpeacex

[JSUSoutherner]

Do you think Kennesaw State was "forced" to move up like Georgia State and UMass also did?
Kennesaw wasn't forced to move, they just have a bad case of little brother syndrome.

Also, Id like to throw SHSUs name on the watchlist for the biggest flop.

[BigBlueMU]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

[smilo]

I don't want to prematurely say Sam Houston, but many people here had doubts at the time that they could be successful at the FBS level. Even in that wretched conference, they struggled whereas Jacksonville State was able to adapt despite being worse at the FCS level (a la Liberty).

I hope their program turns it around, but they may have been built for FCS more than anyone. So much like an Eastern Washington.

[Professor Chaos]

I don't want to prematurely say Sam Houston, but many people here had doubts at the time that they could be successful at the FBS level. Even in that wretched conference, they struggled whereas Jacksonville State was able to adapt despite being worse at the FCS level (a la Liberty).

I hope their program turns it around, but they may have been built for FCS more than anyone. So much like an Eastern Washington.
I'll be interested to see the 2023 athletic revenue numbers for Sam Houston when USA Today updates them this summer. If you look at their 2022 numbers I don't see any way they're sustainable at the FBS level: https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/227881

$300k in total ticket revenue - barely over $1M in contributions... these are below average by FCS standards much less FBS. They're going to have to fleece their students with fees or raid the school's general fund to get up to a competitive athletic budget for FBS.

[NY Crusader 2010]

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

You mean they got lucky and had a psycho conference tourney and then NCAA run after pretty much a .500 season in the MAAC?

Before that run, the St. Peter's gym was basically crumbling so it's not like the savings from not spending on football helped much. The March Madness $$$ did, however.

[NY Crusader 2010]

is there any Division I school that dropped football and became a better athletic program as a result? Can't think of any.

Go Green mentioned St. Mary's already. That's probably the best answer. You could also argue Pacific, at least for a short time. A case could be made for Iona as well.

Wichita State dropped football in the late 1980's. Hard to correlate that with their Men's Basketball glory days that came 20+ years later.

BU? No.
Hofstra? No.
Northeastern? Maybe marginally but I think the departure of VCU, ODU and Mason from the CAA has been a bigger factor
LaSalle? No
St. John's? Absolutely not.
Fairfield? No
Siena? They were immediately very good right after dropping football but have been very mediocre since.

[wapiti]

Idaho
But they realized the mistake and came back to FCS

[Baron Sardonicus]

Not as an athletic program. Finished 223rd of 261 schools in the NACDA/Learfield Cup, just ahead of Alabama State

Really tragic to see the Gaels drop the sport. It seems that football became a scapegoat for the many financial mistakes (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/MORAGA-Phony-donor-duped-St-Mary-s-in-big-scam-2687208.php) SMC made around the time football was cut.

The team had the rough equivalent of 15 scholarship players...and they joined Great West football?!? WTF

Should have become a member of the Pioneer, saved some money, and (to twist DFW Hoya's signature) played where they could actually compete.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Really tragic to see the Gaels drop the sport. It seems that football became a scapegoat for the many financial mistakes (https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/MORAGA-Phony-donor-duped-St-Mary-s-in-big-scam-2687208.php) SMC made around the time football was cut.

The team had the rough equivalent of 15 scholarship players...and they joined Great West football?!? WTF

Should have become a member of the Pioneer, saved some money, and (to twist DFW Hoya's signature) played where they could actually compete.

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!

[Baron Sardonicus]

SMC joined but dropped football before the season started.

[clenz]

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!
09 was MVFC.

The last year the league was known as the Gateway was 2007.

The DSU's joined in 08 and the name was changed to the MVFC.

Gateway Athletic Conference 85-91
Gateway Football Conference 92-07
Missouri Valley Football Conference 2008-present

The Gateway was a women's only athletic conference that started in 1982. It added football in 1985 as part of the realignment that happened from "small and large college" set up previously. The womens teams in the Gateway were Bradley, Drake, EIU, ISUR, ISUB, UNI, SIU, MOSU, WIU, and Wichita State - so basically the MVC and then MidCon teams that had football.

Starting with the 1992 year the MVC absorbed the Gateway Athletic Conference and added women's sports as an official league run thing. That included taking over the Gateway football side of things, which they renamed the Gateway Football Conference. Then there was a big thing leading up to 08 about wanting to unify the name and make it more nationally recognizable with the MVC branding, which no one outside of the league office liked and causes issues/rifts to this day.

1985-present members
ISUR
MOSO
UNI
SIU

ISUB joined in 1986
YSU joined in 1997
NDSU joined in 2008
SDSU joined in 2008
USD joined in 2012
UND joined in 2020
MUSU joined in 2023

EIU was a member from 1985-1995
WKU was a member 2001-2007

1985 was a weird year. The MVC sponsored football for it's final year and everyone played a hybrid A/AA schedule. ISU, ISU, Wichita, SIU, Drake, and then West Texas and Tulsa were in the league. ISU ISU and SIU were also Gateway members with UNI and WIU who were MidCon. It was wild. 1986 saw Tulsa go their way, ISU, ISU, SIU joined the Gateway. WSU dropped, Drake went D3 from 1A. The 1980-1986 time period was wild.


So, also, since I brought it up

WSU dropped football and has done pretty damn well for themselves. Though, not having football does help them back in terms of moving from the MVC to the AAC and getting a full share and/or getting a MWC/B12 look at any point. But if they'd have had football for the last 40 years who knows how it would work out for them. They'd probably be right there with the rest of the Gateway schools from that time.

[NY Crusader 2010]

09 was MVFC.

The last year the league was known as the Gateway was 2007.

The DSU's joined in 08 and the name was changed to the MVFC.

Gateway Athletic Conference 85-91
Gateway Football Conference 92-07
Missouri Valley Football Conference 2008-present

The Gateway was a women's only athletic conference that started in 1982. It added football in 1985 as part of the realignment that happened from "small and large college" set up previously. The womens teams in the Gateway were Bradley, Drake, EIU, ISUR, ISUB, UNI, SIU, MOSU, WIU, and Wichita State - so basically the MVC and then MidCon teams that had football.

Starting with the 1992 year the MVC absorbed the Gateway Athletic Conference and added women's sports as an official league run thing. That included taking over the Gateway football side of things, which they renamed the Gateway Football Conference. Then there was a big thing leading up to 08 about wanting to unify the name and make it more nationally recognizable with the MVC branding, which no one outside of the league office liked and causes issues/rifts to this day.

1985-present members
ISUR
MOSO
UNI
SIU

ISUB joined in 1986
YSU joined in 1997
NDSU joined in 2008
SDSU joined in 2008
USD joined in 2012
UND joined in 2020
MUSU joined in 2023

EIU was a member from 1985-1995
WKU was a member 2001-2007

1985 was a weird year. The MVC sponsored football for it's final year and everyone played a hybrid A/AA schedule. ISU, ISU, Wichita, SIU, Drake, and then West Texas and Tulsa were in the league. ISU ISU and SIU were also Gateway members with UNI and WIU who were MidCon. It was wild. 1986 saw Tulsa go their way, ISU, ISU, SIU joined the Gateway. WSU dropped, Drake went D3 from 1A. The 1980-1986 time period was wild.


So, also, since I brought it up

WSU dropped football and has done pretty damn well for themselves. Though, not having football does help them back in terms of moving from the MVC to the AAC and getting a full share and/or getting a MWC/B12 look at any point. But if they'd have had football for the last 40 years who knows how it would work out for them. They'd probably be right there with the rest of the Gateway schools from that time.

I mentioned WSU above. Who knows if there's any direct correlation between dropping football and their overall success in MBB. They dropped football in '86 and their big NCAA runs that put them on the map started around 2005. They may have been very good before but that's when they became a national name.

A few years back, there was some discussion that WSU was looking into the idea of re-starting football but I think it's because they were worried that opportunities to move up in conference realignment would be contingent on this. However, they were able to get into the AAC anyway was the only non-football member so they're happy for now. Historically, the state of Kansas has not been an easy place to develop a long-term winner in major college football. Kansas State has changed that narrative to extent since the mid-1990's but KU has managed a couple of one-year wonder type of seasons and that's it.

[SDFS]

The Great West...blast from the past. If I recall that league was made up of the 4 Dakota schools, Northern Colorado, UC-Davis and Cal Poly. Didn't remember that St. Mary's was around long enough to be in it but I guess they were. Did the league stay around long enough to have an NCAA bid? The first Dakota school I remember going to the playoffs was SDSU against Montana in 2009 but I can't remember if that was before or after the Missouri Valley Football Conference was formed. Prior to that you had the mighty Gateway!

Great West Football Conference had the following:

2004 - Announced as a 7 team conference

St. Marys - dropped football 6 months prior to start of first season.
UNC - last season 2005 - left for Big Sky
NDSU - last season 2007 - left for MVFC
SDSU - last season 2007 - left for MVFC
Cal Poly- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
UC Davis- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
Southern Utah- last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
UND joined in 2008 - last season 2011 - left for Big Sky
USD joined in 2008 - last season 2011 - left for MVFC

Regular Season Champions Record
2004 Cal Poly 4–1
2005 Cal Poly and UC Davis 4–1
2006 North Dakota State 4–0
2007 South Dakota State 4–0
2008 Cal Poly 3–0
2009 UC Davis 3–1
2010 Southern Utah 4–0
2011 North Dakota and Cal Poly 3–1

Here is what the Fargo Media had to say about St. Mary's:

That brings us to St. Mary's College in Moraga, Calif., located east of the Bay Area. The school didn't exactly organize a victory parade concerning Wednesday's announcement. It's doubtful the head football coach was wearing a Great West Football Conference hat. It's the only school of the seven that didn't schedule a news conference. Nothing about the new league is mentioned on the school Web site. The local newspaper, the Costa Contra Times, carried only a Wednesday story that had the following headline: "Gaels hesitant on conference affiliation."
Rich Davi, the sports information director, said St. Mary's "has not formally announced" its affiliation with the league. "We're in a holding pattern until the Board of Trustees reviews certain information," he said. He didn't know when the matter will be addressed.

It's curious. You have to wonder if getting the OK from the Board of Trustees is just a formality or if the other six put St. Mary's on the league letterhead based on an educated guess it will join. Perhaps the private school is running on a different administrative agenda than the public schools.

What we do know is NDSU will play at St. Mary's on Nov. 20 -- its second trip to California in three weeks. What we don't know is if it will be a Great West Football Conference game.

[uni88]

I mentioned WSU above. Who knows if there's any direct correlation between dropping football and their overall success in MBB. They dropped football in '86 and their big NCAA runs that put them on the map started around 2005. They may have been very good before but that's when they became a national name.

A few years back, there was some discussion that WSU was looking into the idea of re-starting football but I think it's because they were worried that opportunities to move up in conference realignment would be contingent on this. However, they were able to get into the AAC anyway was the only non-football member so they're happy for now. Historically, the state of Kansas has not been an easy place to develop a long-term winner in major college football. Kansas State has changed that narrative to extent since the mid-1990's but KU has managed a couple of one-year wonder type of seasons and that's it.

WSU beat Kansas and went to the Elite 8 in 1981 with Cliff Levingston and Antoine Carr (both top NBA draft picks), Xavier McDaniel joined the team the following year and later led the nation in scoring & rebounding.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

St Peters? I know bit of a stretch but it's the only one I can think of.

St. Peter's is terrible in their sports.

A fluke tournament run doesn't change the overall awfulness.

[clenz]

St. Peter's is terrible in their sports.

A fluke tournament run doesn't change the overall awfulness.
Even in that fluke run they were absolutely terrible that season and just managed to catch the most lightning in a bottle possible. They were 14-11 at the end of the regular season. Hell, with 4 gamse to go in the regular season they were 10-11. They won 12 games between Feb 25 and Mar 27, which is more wins than they had all season up until Feb 25. They didn't win a game agaisnt a D1 team outside of the MAAC until the NCAA tournament.

Their basketball program in the 16 seasons post football being dropped is almost 100% identical to the 16 seasons leadiig up to it being dropped, outside of that stupid 1 month run.

[Shockerman]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!

[DFW HOYA]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

The Wheatshockers would be an AAC football program today had they stayed.

[bonarae]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!

Meanwhile, are you guys the Midwestern version of BU or Northeastern? After those two Boston schools dropped football, they are now thriving in ice hockey... xsighx

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Wheatshockers would be an AAC football program today had they stayed.

That's true now. Had they not dropped football in 1986, they would've ended up in the Big West and then maybe even the Sun Belt (Idaho and NMSU were there) or the WAC in it's waning years. Had they hypothetically re-started the program from scratch in let's say 2005, chances are they would've launched as a I-AA in the Gateway and then the MVFC before moving up to the AAC with their recent invite. I think they would've been a very good FCS program had they done this. If they re-started football in the last 10 years, it would've been a Charlotte type move. A couple years as a transitional FCS indy before going into the AAC. There was talk that Wichita would re-start football IF the AAC required it for entry...but they found a way to get in without it, and are currently the only non-football member. Last year there were rumblings that the AAC and VCU were talking as well FWIW.

I kind of understand WSU dropping football in 1986. The history of major college football in the state of Kansas is absolutely putrid. Kansas State was probably the worst power conference program in America until the Bill Snyder era started in the mid-1990's. And Kansas has always been a laughingstock in my lifetime minus a couple blips. But I agree with Shockerman that WSU could've had an opportunity to be a real bull in a china shop as a I-AA team.

[OhioHen]

Meanwhile, are you guys the Midwestern version of BU or Northeastern? After those two Boston schools dropped football, they are now thriving in ice hockey... xsighx
They were both very good hockey programs while they still had football. Football never had a chance because of the money spent on hockey, even when they had both.

[NY Crusader 2010]

They were both very good hockey programs while they still had football. Football never had a chance because of the money spent on hockey, even when they had both.

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.

FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey

Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross

[clenz]

WSU basketball was putrid after dropping football for 25 years. One of the things that hasn't been mentioned is campus life. After football was dropped at WSU, falls became depressing and campus life took a nose dive. We have finally recovered somewhat thanks to a former President Barta, but it's still an issue.

Where WSU dropped the ball was not going to FCS or D1AA back in 1986 due to a massive little brother ego. We would have thrived in the Gateway and then MVFC. There are no FCS programs in Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Prior to SDSU and NDSU, the whole area was completely under recruited and a pile of thesw kids went to JUCO and then on to FBS somewhere.

As for the future, things look pretty bleak for footballs return. As long as the AAC lets us stay without it, we aren't going to add it. Who knows what happens in a post P4 split though? Some of us still have a little hope!
I mean Missouri State is down there - having dumped more money into facilities, recruiting, coaches, etc. than anyone in the Valley outside of the Dakota State's over the last 7 years since the mid 80s and it has gotten the absolutely **** all.

I think you are greatly underestimating the Gateway/Valley


Which isn't shocking coming from a Shocker gievn their general view on the MVC.

[OhioHen]

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.

FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey

Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross
Delaware's move out of FCS and the introduction of Women's Ice Hockey as an NCAA sport are timed such that they can't claim the same distinction.

[DFW HOYA]

I couldn't tell if bonarae was joking or not. Yes, both were great hockey programs prior to schools' dropping football. BU doesn't have baseball either.
FWIW, there are only 3 non-Ivy's who play all of the following: FCS Football, M/W Lacrosse, Baseball/Softball, M/W Hockey
Those 3 schools are => Sacred Heart, Merrimack and Holy Cross

Only because NCAA ice hockey is rarely seen south of Interstate 70.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Delaware's move out of FCS and the introduction of Women's Ice Hockey as an NCAA sport are timed such that they can't claim the same distinction.

Would need Men's and Women's Hockey to have the distinction. UMass-Amherst would have claimed the same distinction before going FBS. Hard to believe it's been almost 15 years since they made the jump. Time really flies.

I didn't even hear about UD adding Women's Hockey. Do they still draw really well for WBB? I remember they did but wasn't sure if it was a passing fad when Del Donne played there. Famously she turned down a scholarship at UConn to play close to home at Delaware in order to take care of a disabled family member.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Only because NCAA ice hockey is rarely seen south of Interstate 70.

Very true. Unless you count Arizona State or Miami (OH) as being "south", literally there's no one south of Princeton with Men's DI hockey. Alabama-Huntsville had it and dropped maybe 10 years ago?

Even amongst non-Ivy schools in the mid-Atlantic and New England it's still pretty rare to have the entire combination of sports I specified. A lot of DI schools for only 3 to sponsor all those sports.

[Pards Rule]

UMASS

[OhioHen]

Would need Men's and Women's Hockey to have the distinction. UMass-Amherst would have claimed the same distinction before going FBS. Hard to believe it's been almost 15 years since they made the jump. Time really flies.

I didn't even hear about UD adding Women's Hockey. Do they still draw really well for WBB? I remember they did but wasn't sure if it was a passing fad when Del Donne played there. Famously she turned down a scholarship at UConn to play close to home at Delaware in order to take care of a disabled family member.
Forgot about UD Men's Hockey being on the club side, with some success. Women have been successful as a club team and are moving to varsity status for 2025-26 season. They'll be in the CHA

[Shockerman]

I mean Missouri State is down there - having dumped more money into facilities, recruiting, coaches, etc. than anyone in the Valley outside of the Dakota State's over the last 7 years since the mid 80s and it has gotten the absolutely **** all.

I think you are greatly underestimating the Gateway/Valley


Which isn't shocking coming from a Shocker gievn their general view on the MVC.

Despite the $$$, Briggs stadium is still a dump and is one of the few college football programs on the planet that makes WSU's history in the sport look good. I do think that Mo State is one of the few programs left in FCS that is a sleeping giant though. If and when they get that football program off the ground, the Bears are beyond a perfect fit for the Sun Belt. The regional tie ins with Louisiana, Texas State, and Arkansas State would transform their brand. First things first though...gotta actually win.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Despite the $$$, Briggs stadium is still a dump and is one of the few college football programs on the planet that makes WSU's history in the sport look good. I do think that Mo State is one of the few programs left in FCS that is a sleeping giant though. If and when they get that football program off the ground, the Bears are beyond a perfect fit for the Sun Belt. The regional tie ins with Louisiana, Texas State, and Arkansas State would transform their brand. First things first though...gotta actually win.

Or CUSA. The cool thing about being able to get promoted from FCS to FBS is that you don't always have to actually be a good football program. You just need to have to be a big state school in the right geographic location and be willing to spend a bunch of money.

[DFW HOYA]

Or CUSA. The cool thing about being able to get promoted from FCS to FBS is that you don't always have to actually be a good football program. You just need to have to be a big state school in the right geographic location and be willing to spend a bunch of money.

You don't even have to be a big state school. For these schools, it takes three things:

1. Add 22 scholarships;
2. Secure state appropriations and student fees to support travel; and
3. Booster support for the difference.

Why do they do it? Certainly not to win national titles. In the end, it gets them enrollment and heightened support from their state legislature for capital funding.

[MSUBobcat]

Very true. Unless you count Arizona State or Miami (OH) as being "south", literally there's no one south of Princeton with Men's DI hockey. Alabama-Huntsville had it and dropped maybe 10 years ago?

Even amongst non-Ivy schools in the mid-Atlantic and New England it's still pretty rare to have the entire combination of sports I specified. A lot of DI schools for only 3 to sponsor all those sports.

As one of the board's only NCAA hockey fans, that's not exactly accurate. Ohio State, Miami, Denver, Air Force, CC, and newly added Arizona State and Lindenwood are all south of Princeton (7 out of 64 D-I teams). Of those, OSU and Lindenwood are technically north of I-70. DU and Miami are slightly south of I-70 while Air Force, CC and ASU are definitely south of it. Huntsville's hockey program met its final demise after the shortened 2020-21 season after a May 2020 fundraising saved it (briefly) from folding. This was due to our favorite aspect of college athletics.... conference reshuffling, which left UAH homeless, and conference affiliation was a requirement for the program's continuation.

The list of schools that sponsor 2 niche sports (hockey AND lacrosse) is expectedly small, especially when the women's side of it is added. 64 men's hockey programs, only 44 women's hockey programs. Of those 44 women's teams, 6 of them don't sponsor D1 MEN'S hockey. We're down to 38 schools in the entire country offering men's AND women's D1 hockey. Of those 38, 9 of them are DII or DIII in all other sports, so we're down to 29 schools before even overlaying the men's and women's lacrosse Venn diagrams.