How Deep Is The SoCon Rift of Privates vs Publics?

[SU DOG]

Four days ago ETSU AD Richard Sander was interviewed by the Bucs' Jay & Keith Podcast. He discussed two issues that he thought were very important to him. Those are SoCon expansion and coat of attendance limitations. He stated that the privates want status quo, but specifically mentioned that UTC along with ETSU strongly want expansion. Sander noted that the SoCon is the only conference that limits COA, and again stated that this issue is another that the privates want to keep as is. He believes the conference should be more proactive and not so reactive, and thinks the new Commissioner might possibly be more receptive to this line of thinking than the previous two.

Public and private member differences are nothing new for the SoCon. To me the question is whether these issue are becoming more critical, and could the conference possibly lose any members even with the exit fee?

[The Cats]

Four days ago ETSU AD Richard Sander was interviewed by the Bucs' Jay & Keith Podcast. He discussed two issues that he thought were very important to him. Those are SoCon expansion and coat of attendance limitations. He stated that the privates want status quo, but specifically mentioned that UTC along with ETSU strongly want expansion. Sander noted that the SoCon is the only conference that limits COA, and again stated that this issue is another that the privates want to keep as is. He believes the conference should be more proactive and not so reactive, and thinks the new Commissioner might possibly be more receptive to this line of thinking than the previous two.

Public and private member differences are nothing new for the SoCon. To me the question is whether these issue are becoming more critical, and could the conference possibly lose any members even with the exit fee?

Yes, I think the SoCon could lose both Chattanooga and ETSU. WCU would love to be in that group, but the $2 million exit fee will kept them in for a while, as we need to concentrate on facility upgrades, not give money away.

This could be remedied with conference expansion, I'm not talking about numbers like the CAA foolishly has done, but we need more football and basketball members, as well as, more women's team members in several sports, as some sports are low in numbers. Expansion would help women's teams the most, but all would benefit.

Of course the self appointed leaders of the conference (FU, Wofford, El Cid) want things to remain with the status quo, and the remainder of the sheep follow along...

[Milktruck74]

I have to think the privates and militaries are not wanting to expand because they do not want add teams like tUNA, CSU, and GWU, but if UTC leaves along with ETSUx, because the SoCon will not expand...the remaining teams in the SoCon will be forced to take what is readily available and those teams will probably be tUNA, GWU and Chuck South.

So I think the option the SoCon has is take the teams before they lose the TN publics...or after...either way, they will probably have to add the teams!!!

[mainejeff]

It's funny how in this day and age where longterm survival of many conferences is in question.....some of the individual member pettiness seems out of touch with reality.

[ElCid]

The SOCON's existence is not in jeopardy. This is much ado about nothing. If adding the schools mentioned were actually a good idea, they would have already been added. At least two, I won't say which, are terrible ideas.

And just out of curiosity, what definitive knowledge, proof is there that it's the privates and militaries that don't want to expand? Just curious. Lots of speculation, but little actual authoritative info. Fans shouting it or the odd coach hinting at it doesn't make it so. I'd really like to hear it by quote from the ADs and presidents. Just for the record.

[wcugrad95]

Didn't ETSU's AD just do that? At least for his school, and then he put the words into UTC's mouths. But I think everybody knows the Mocs would like to move.

I still think there are teams that would be a good fit and possibly welcomed by the majority of the existing members. I'd think you need to add at least 3 teams to make it worth it, and that is probably the rub. Finding 3 schools that everybody wants AND that want to jump to the SOCON.

[Mocs123]

Chattanooga's long been an outcast in the SoCon - especially there for a while when ETSU was in the A-SUN as we were the only school west of the Appalachians. Now it seems better as we have ETSU back as well as Samford and Mercer. I do feel like the only real publics are UTC, ETSU, and WCU (and UNC-G) - the military schools are technically public but ran more like a private school.

How deep is the rift? I don't know, but I do know the perception (at least) has been around a long time. I've heard rumblings for the last fifteen years or so of two schools in particular "running" the SoCon - now I'm not sure how two schools "run" the SoCon where each school gets a vote, but that talk has certainly been around.

That being said, The SoCon has been pretty strong and stable the past few decades - We somehow survived the loss of App and GSU - when everyone thought we were doomed. I think Furman, Mercer, and Chattanooga all showed that SoCon football, while not winning championships like it was before, is still quite strong. In MBB, while still a one bid league, the SoCon is probably the strongest one bid league in the country, and I imagine they will get multiple NCAA bids soon. In their current state, I can't imagine any other FCS conference looking appealing to UTC or ETSU as the SoCon is miles above any of the other geographically reasonable possibilities like the A-Sun (or UAC - whatever they call themselves now), the OVC, or the Big South. While the SoCon may not be perfect - and at times we may fight like siblings - I'm not sure there is a better fit currently.

And wcugrad95 - I certainly hear rumors of rumblings every now and then, but I seriously doubt the Mocs want to go somewhere. If they would they'd already be gone. Both the OVC and the A-Sun tried HARD to get Chattanooga just a year or two ago and our AD turned them down. Even when JSU and KSU went to the A-Sun our AD held fast - despite JSU being one of our largest rivals at the time. I'm not sure exactly what UTC said to the SoCon but if the Mocs and Bucs have requested expansion - my guess is it's because they want expansion - if they wanted out, I imagine the UAC or OVC would snatch either in a heartbeat.

I'm not sure what ETSU's finances are - they've been buying out a lot of coaches lately - but I imagine UTC would have a real hard time paying a $2M exit fee. While I don't deny there is probably a rift or two in the SoCon - I personally don't think it's going anywhere and tend to think it's one of the more stable conferences in the country.

[FUBeAR]

the military schools are technically public but ran more like a private school
Please tell FUBeAR what this means. It seems to be a very popular thing to say, but FUBeAR has no idea what it means. Looking for some examples of past actions and decision-making processes and outcomes that typify this assertion.

[ElCid]

Please tell FUBeAR what this means. It seems to be a very popular thing to say, but FUBeAR has no idea what it means. Looking for some examples of past actions and decision-making processes and outcomes that typify this assertion.

I think it is not necessarily a black and white distinction, but they would tend to have similar type interests. Like privates, The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics. That may or may not translate into 100% private-like behavior when it comes to athletics, but in alignment, they would tend to lean towards the privates more. This is just a general evaluation and I can't point to a specific action.

On the flip side, the fact that they are both public institutions means they have all the state budget issues and state mandates to deal with as well. So they truly are a special case that doesn't fit into either side very easily. The one issue that comes immediately to mind is VMI's requirement that "x"% of students (and ultimately athletes) must come from VA. That has to impact recruiting at least a little bit. But kdinva will have to provide the details.

But you ask a good question. Not to criticize my school, or VMI, but with 4 bigger publics, and 4 mostly smaller privates (Mercer is the odd private being bigger), but the militaries find themselves in the unique position of being the swing block depending on the issue. That could be viewed as either the tyranny of the swing vote minority or moderating influence of the middle depending on your position. But this is to say that there are issues that fall clearly between the public and privates. I'm not sure there are that many, besides possible expansion. There might be, I just don't know about them. And I'm not convinced that much expansion is in the big publics' interests like some here are screaming.

I'm glad that the SOCON has taken a slow, very deliberately stance on expansion. We have all seen the mess that occurs from acting on impulse when it comes to realignment. How many conferences are a real mess as a result. The Southland, UAC, Big South, OVC, MEAC, and even the CAA are all experiencing turmoil. We are free of turmoil. And that is comforting.

[SU DOG]

Just for the sake of accuracy ElCid, Samford with 3672 undergrads and a total enrollment of 5791 is much larger than the militaries' numbers. Also, the Mercer total number is somewhat misleading as it includes a half dozen or more satellite campuses.

[FUBeAR]

I think it is not necessarily a black and white distinction, but they would tend to have similar type interests. Like privates, The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics. That may or may not translate into 100% private-like behavior when it comes to athletics, but in alignment, they would tend to lean towards the privates more. This is just a general evaluation and I can't point to a specific action.

On the flip side, the fact that they are both public institutions means they have all the state budget issues and state mandates to deal with as well. So they truly are a special case that doesn't fit into either side very easily. The one issue that comes immediately to mind is VMI's requirement that "x"% of students (and ultimately athletes) must come from VA. That has to impact recruiting at least a little bit. But kdinva will have to provide the details.

But you ask a good question. Not to criticize my school, or VMI, but with 4 bigger publics, and 4 mostly smaller privates (Mercer is the odd private being bigger), but the militaries find themselves in the unique position of being the swing block depending on the issue. That could be viewed as either the tyranny of the swing vote minority or moderating influence of the middle depending on your position. But this is to say that there are issues that fall clearly between the public and privates. I'm not sure there are that many, besides possible expansion. There might be, I just don't know about them. And I'm not convinced that much expansion is in the big publics' interests like some here are screaming.

I'm glad that the SOCON has taken a slow, very deliberately stance on expansion. We have all seen the mess that occurs from acting on impulse when it comes to realignment. How many conferences are a real mess as a result. The Southland, UAC, Big South, OVC, MEAC, and even the CAA are all experiencing turmoil. We are free of turmoil. And that is comforting.
Thanks for all that. Pretty much knew most of it. Agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

But…back up to that 1st paragraph. Still looking for some specifics around Mocs123’s assertion and now would like further understanding of what this “The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics” means …specifically.

“Parochial” means … “having a limited or narrow outlook or scope” - So, specifically, related to athletics, how are VMI’s & CIT’s …. and, by extension, Furman’s, Wofford’s, Samford’s, and (big (ha ha)) Mercer’s interests more limited or narrow in outlook or scope. Each of those 6 schools has made investments in facilities, has, in recent years, fielded NCAA Tournament Teams in Football and 1/2 have in basketball.

Davidson Football was misaligned with the SoCon. FUBeAR could see that. Everyone could. That’s the kind of thing he’s looking for.

Show FUBeAR how these Athletics Programs’ interests vary based on the ‘category’ to which they have been ‘assigned.’ Cost of Attendance? C’mon - that can be resolved over 2 or 3 drinks at the hotel bar in Myrtle Beach. Inter-conference transfer policy? Non-issue. Furman and Mercer Football will be happy to take some of the Players from Chatt, ETSU, and WCU that are in the portal. JK - but in the Wild West of today … that’s a 1-drink to solution issue.

Since 2013 - using great care with regard to expansion has proven to be the far superior strategy. It should continue to be the strategy. Doing SOMETHING so you can say you’re doing SOMETHING is a fool’s errand, FUBeAR thinks the SoCon’s wise approach to date is near paying solid dividends. He expects 1-3 STRONG & STABLE additions to the SoCon in the next 3-24 months.

But - hey, if y’all wanna bail … SEE YA … WOULDN’T WANNA BE YA! … more room for those strong and stable additions.

[SU DOG]

JUST for the sake of accuracy El Cid, Samford's undergraduate enrollment is currently 3672 and the total number is 5791 students. This is obviously well above the militaries' numbers. Mercer's total number is somewhat misleading as I believe it includes about a half dozen or more satellite campuses. Samford has seen an increase in enrollment for the last 15 years straight. The school has just announced the construction of three new dormitories with an expected enrollment to reach 7,500 within the next few years.

[wcugrad95]

My feeling is that it is more about which way would Citadel and VMI vote in regards to possible expansion schools more so than the "interest" of the current programs. But that is true in almost every conference at every level. Citadel not wanting a school like Charleston Southern is pretty similar to say Florida not wanting FSU or Miami to get into the SEC. And the private schools not wanting to add say 3 big public schools is just like the large publics not wanting to add 3 more small private schools. In the end, Citadel and VMI would no doubt have the same interests and lots of the same challenges, and I think the sentiment is they would vote more in line with the privates vs UTC/ETSU/WCU on the future of football in the SOCON.

Like I said, that becomes challenging if you are talking about trying to add the right set of at least 3 teams. There is no real benefit of adding only 1 - in fact it probably makes things worse. The league benefits now from our stability to go along with a great footprint in terms of travel and costs. Just adding any 3 schools isn't the right answer - but I do feel there are at least 3 that could be great additions. Of course, the 3 I like very well could be different than the 3 somebody from another school likes.

[ElCid]

Just for the sake of accuracy ElCid, Samford with 3672 undergrads and a total enrollment of 5791 is much larger than the militaries' numbers. Also, the Mercer total number is somewhat misleading as it includes a half dozen or more satellite campuses.

Yeah, that is true about Mercer, I just didn't have the breakout. Satellite campus numbers are basically useless in re to football.

We are about 2300 cadets, and 1300 graduate students for about 3600. So we are a bit bigger than VMI (about 1700) who has a smaller Corps and no graduates. And Samford is about 50% bigger than us in both undergrad and grad. Furman is at about 2600 total with a small number of grad studs. Wofford has about 1800 studs with no graduate school. One other bit of data is that while we and VMI have women, the % is much much smaller than at Furman, Wofford, Samford, and Mercer.

[FUBeAR]

My feeling is that it is more about which way would Citadel and VMI vote in regards to possible expansion schools more so than the "interest" of the current programs. But that is true in almost every conference at every level. Citadel not wanting a school like Charleston Southern is pretty similar to say Florida not wanting FSU or Miami to get into the SEC. And the private schools not wanting to add say 3 big public schools is just like the large publics not wanting to add 3 more small private schools. In the end, Citadel and VMI would no doubt have the same interests and lots of the same challenges, and I think the sentiment is they would vote more in line with the privates vs UTC/ETSU/WCU on the future of football in the SOCON.

Like I said, that becomes challenging if you are talking about trying to add the right set of at least 3 teams. There is no real benefit of adding only 1 - in fact it probably makes things worse. The league benefits now from our stability to go along with a great footprint in terms of travel and costs. Just adding 3 isn't the right answer - but I do feel there are at least 3 that could be great additions. Of course, the 3 I like very well could be different than the 3 somebody from another school likes.
Still talking in vague generalities about differing “interests.” Everyone seems to KNOW that these schools’ “interests” differ based upon their ‘assigned category,’ but no one, so far, has been specific.

CIT doesn’t want ChuckSouth to join the SoCon for the same reason WCU doesn’t want Southwest CC in Sylva to join the SoCon. We don’t need 2 Starbucks across the street from each other in the SoCon. It has nothing to do with CIT being “military” or “voting like a private.”

Other than some kinda weird “other-ism” that seems to be a defining personality trait among SoCon Fans (at least fans of “the Publics” from what FUBeAR sees), why wouldn’t Furman or Samford want a public school or 2 more joining the SoCon. Why do public schools think/say “privates” are THE DEVIL? The SoCon has been a blend of Public / Private / Military since before most of us were born.

FUBeAR contends ALL schools have the same “interests.” We have different burdens to bear, but we all want the same 2, maybe 3 things. We all want to win. We all want to not lose too much money (should be thinking about MAKING money instead, but none of ‘em do…really). We want student athletes to not hate us, with a stretch goal of them feeling meh about us. Pollyanna-ish and/or lying fans will say we want our SA’s to have amazing experiences and earn amazing degrees … and that’s true … as long as those things don’t conflict with winning or not losing too much money.

FUBeAR contends that the seismic changes in intercollegiate athletics - realignment, transfer portal, NIL have rendered whatever real differences may have once existed between these “categories” of schools may or may not still be real, but they are now trivial.

So trivial that people, like us…who are pretty darn engaged struggle to SPECIFICALLY cite any real differences in “interests.” Well, FUBeAR named 2 that he heard the ETSU spewing amid his snot & phlegm (hope he’s seen a doctor since that interview) … and, again, those 2 issues seem pissant to FUBeAR…FUBeAR can solve that problem in 4 drinks….FUBeAR…SOLVE THAT PROBLEM!

Seems to be peeps are just in their feels more than anything else .… and looking for something to blame for them feeling less than.

[wcugrad95]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.

[dbackjon]

VMI and The Citadel are small, with selective acceptance rates targeting a niche audience. That alone sets them apart from a bigger public school like ETSU, WCU or UTC where the missions of those schools are more broad-based and they were set up to educate an audience that is broader than what privates or the militaries target.

[FUBeAR]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.
Still nothing on WHY / WHAT are the different interests by category.

if the “rift” is that ETSU/UTC/WCU want to expand & the ‘rest’ want to expand wisely…then, yeah, FUBeAR is gonna line up with the wise peeps.

All of ‘the privates’ except Mercer have voted for SoCon expansion in the past and knowing President Underwood as FUBeAR does, if expansion helps Mercer grow and ‘reach,’ he’ll be standing on the bow of that ship. FUBeAR is almost certain ‘the privates’ are not ‘reactively anti-expansionary’ as the ETSU characterized them, while extolling the virtues of the oh-so-proactive Buc’s (LOL) Athletics. They are just wise old bulls - they wanna WALK down the hill (if you know that off-color metaphor)…

FUBeAR’s wish list
1) Richmond (private)- ALL SPORTS, including their A-10 Hoops
2) William & Mary (public)
3) NC A&T (public)
4) Campbell (private)
5) Others - Gardner-Webb (private), Tennessee Tech (public), UTM (public), APSU (public), UNA (public) …probably others

[FUBeAR]

VMI and The Citadel are small, with selective acceptance rates targeting a niche audience. That alone sets them apart from a bigger public school like ETSU, WCU or UTC where the missions of those schools are more broad-based and they were set up to educate an audience that is broader than what privates or the militaries target.
Anyone posting on this thread is likely aware of the demographics of all of the SoCon schools.

Now…take those things you said and apply them to how those pieces of data drive differing “interests” in their athletics pursuits / decisions. Cite specific example of decisions that have been made because of these pieces of data in contrast to how that decision would have been made if these pieces of info were different.

[SU DOG]

It would be interesting to have people from each school throw out their "top-3" adds. My bet is there might be quite a bit of overlap. Of course what we think/want on a message board has no real bearing on anything, but the "rift" and divide is probably closer than what a lot of people think. For instance, my preferences have as much to do with the footprint and programs we would add than they do if the schools are public vs private.

I'd love to get NC A&T and Campbell. That is one of each. Then there would be tons of debate on who the 3rd school is, but my guess is many on here wouldn't have terrible heartburn with either of those 2.

I would also go along with Campbell. The public I desperately wanted was West Georgia because of great facilities and their geographical location that would be pretty easy travel, especially for UTC, Samford, and Mercer. I wonder if the SoCon didn't drop the ball on that one? They probably don't have any interest, but Tenn Tech might be a good choice, IMO.

[ElCid]

Thanks for all that. Pretty much knew most of it. Agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

But…back up to that 1st paragraph. Still looking for some specifics around Mocs123’s assertion and now would like further understanding of what this “The Citadel and VMI, in general, have very parochial interests more in line with privates than big publics” means …specifically.

“Parochial” means … “having a limited or narrow outlook or scope” - So, specifically, related to athletics, how are VMI’s & CIT’s …. and, by extension, Furman’s, Wofford’s, Samford’s, and (big (ha ha)) Mercer’s interests more limited or narrow in outlook or scope. Each of those 6 schools has made investments in facilities, has, in recent years, fielded NCAA Tournament Teams in Football and 1/2 have in basketball.

Davidson Football was misaligned with the SoCon. FUBeAR could see that. Everyone could. That’s the kind of thing he’s looking for.

Show FUBeAR how these Athletics Programs’ interests vary based on the ‘category’ to which they have been ‘assigned.’ Cost of Attendance? C’mon - that can be resolved over 2 or 3 drinks at the hotel bar in Myrtle Beach. Inter-conference transfer policy? Non-issue. Furman and Mercer Football will be happy to take some of the Players from Chatt, ETSU, and WCU that are in the portal. JK - but in the Wild West of today … that’s a 1-drink to solution issue.

Since 2013 - using great care with regard to expansion has proven to be the far superior strategy. It should continue to be the strategy. Doing SOMETHING so you can say you’re doing SOMETHING is a fool’s errand, FUBeAR thinks the SoCon’s wise approach to date is near paying solid dividends. He expects 1-3 STRONG & STABLE additions to the SoCon in the next 3-24 months.

But - hey, if y’all wanna bail … SEE YA … WOULDN’T WANNA BE YA! … more room for those strong and stable additions.

Just some rambling thoughts... I don't disagree with anything here, but I think the interests of the smaller schools are with the size of the student bodies and their quality. Conference schools need to have similar interests and qualities. All of the SOCON schools are fairly good academically. But whenever you have really big schools, the overall quality begins to drop. Just a fact. You have to fill classrooms and dorms. This is not a knock on any of the big publics. Like I said, I think they are all fairly good schools in the SOCON currently. None are too big. But I wouldn't be in favor of adding a bunch more, who may be even bigger or looser in regard to academics.

And then you have the financial aspect. Disregarding endowments, student size may dictate raw cash coming in each year. A bit easier to do improvements or maintenance concerns with 13K students than 3K. No school want to compete against a stacked deck. Right now I think the SOCON is a good blend of like minded schools with similar standards and resources. The militaries are unique in that, at least for undergrads for us, you really want to live and experience the military regimen as well or pursue a military commission. The smaller privates don't want to compete against a bunch of mega schools either.

[SU DOG]

Then there is the anomaly of no football UNCG. interestingly enough I found that budget research for UNCG was done in October after the school got worried about deficits. Of course, the academia professor who did the research pointed the finger at Athletics as a major culprit. The link is what he stated, and it is rather long, but it is easy to read and scroll through. At least he couldn't blame football.

Frankly, I have never understood how a large metropolitan university (just under 18,000 on campus) like this fits the SoCon footprint.

https://triad-city-beat.com/uncg-budget-cuts/#:~:text=According%20to%20UNCG's%20tuition%20data, only%20raising%20about%20%243.3%20million.

[FU_Paladin08]

I think geographically there’s some overcrowding in NC and SC. If appeasing everyone is important adding VA/TN/GA schools seems logical. A lot of good football options have already been named, but I think the SoCon really wants to be a 2 bid basketball league. I have to think any new schools need to be strong in basketball.

But speaking strictly of football, I think there should be caution with “watering down” the conference like I believe the CAA has done. There’s only so many schools to go around in the southeast. Adding Big South or D2 teams is risky and getting too far outside of the existing footprint gets financially risky with travel.

But for a top 3, I think the SoCon never really rebuilt properly after the departure of App and GSU. Adding Mercer, VMI, and ETSU hasn’t provided sustained success on the football field. I’d be open to adding public schools like W&M, NC A&T, and darkhorse Valdosta St. The only private school considered should be Richmond.

[wcugrad95]

@FUBeAR, I think you are misinterpreting my posts. I am actually agreeing that to me we all have very similarly aligned interests when looking at athletics. Our schools, their populations and charters, etc. are all different. But I don't subscribe to the notion that the privates or the publics are defning the conference from an athletic perspective. The only 2 schools that I mentiond that do have very similar/nearly identical "interests" are VMI and Citadel.

As for becoming a 2-bid basketball league, we could always add some other non-football schools, but I don't think anybody really wants to do much of that. I don't expect William & Mary nor Richmond want to return to the SOCON, so we also have to realize that it takes two to tango. Not just the league wanting them, but the other schools also wanting to come. And regarding the overcrowding in NC, for football WCU is the only NC-based school.

[FUBeAR]

@FUBeAR, I think you are misinterpreting my posts. I am actually agreeing that to me we all have very similarly aligned interests when looking at athletics. Our schools, their populations and charters, etc. are all different. But I don't subscribe to the notion that the privates or the publics are defning the conference from an athletic perspective. The only 2 schools that I mentiond that do have very similar/nearly identical "interests" are VMI and Citadel.

As for becoming a 2-bid basketball league, we could always add some other non-football schools, but I don't think anybody really wants to do much of that. I don't expect William & Mary nor Richmond want to return to the SOCON, so we also have to realize that it takes two to tango. Not just the league wanting them, but the other schools also wanting to come. And regarding the overcrowding in NC, for football WCU is the only NC-based school.
Well - you said it again - so don't think it's a misinterpretation - HOW ARE CIT's AND VMI's ATHLETICS GOALS / ASPIRATIONS / ETC....IOW, "INTERESTS" different from those of WCU, ETSU, and UTC. Don't tell FUBeAR the schools are different. Any IDIOT knows that. Respond specifically to the specific question?

They are military - WCU is in the mountains - Mercer / Macon has a historical crime problem - Furman is perceived as a "girly school" (or something like that), Woffy is tiny and has NO Grad school, ETSU also in fairly remote area and can't seem to stop paying Coaches not to Coach. Chatt's stadium is in a bad location, Samford is a Girl's Softball School ---- whatever - every school is different - every school has plusses and minuses - these don't define their INTERESTS.....How are their INTERESTS different????

[ElCid]

Then there is the anomaly of no football UNCG. interestingly enough I found that budget research for UNCG was done in October after the school got worried about deficits. Of course, the academia professor who did the research pointed the finger at Athletics as a major culprit. The link is what he stated, and it is rather long, but it is easy to read and scroll through. At least he couldn't blame football.

Frankly, I have never understood how a large metropolitan university (just under 18,000 on campus) like this fits the SoCon footprint.

https://triad-city-beat.com/uncg-budget-cuts/#:~:text=According%20to%20UNCG's%20tuition%20data, only%20raising%20about%20%243.3%20million.

To your last point...it doesn't fit. At least on the surface. Admittedly, I know very little about UNCG so may e there are positives points. If that number is correct then they are by far the largest school in the conf.

[Sandlapper Spike]

The Citadel is a school with certain attributes similar to private universities, but with the responsibilities of a government institution. Its mission is inherently public in nature, and has been for the entirety of the college's existence.

The most prominent correlation between The Citadel and the private schools in the league, by far, is its total undergraduate enrollment -- and yet there are differences in scope there, too.

It is also a school that has remained in the Southern Conference for the past nine decades while a grab-bag of institutions has entered the league, with some of them staying for a while while others have left rather quickly; a select few have chosen to hang around.

I am a little puzzled why someone would think a school that has willingly been a member of the same conference as West Virginia, East Carolina, Appalachian State, Marshall, Chattanooga, Western Carolina, East Tennessee State, Georgia Southern, UNC-Greensboro, and College of Charleston (all of which joined the SoCon after The Citadel) would automatically be a "no" vote for the inclusion of any other public university.

[FUBeAR]

To your last point...it doesn't fit. At least on the surface. Admittedly, I know very little about UNCG so may e there are positives points. If that number is correct then they are by far the largest school in the conf.





State Residence
Female Students
Male Students
All


Undergraduate
In-State

Out-of-State

All
8,948

486


9,434
4,517

247


4,764
13,465

733


14,198


Graduate
In-State

Out-of-State

All
2,115

505


2,620
810

350


1,160
2,925

855


3,780


Total
In-State

Out-of-State

All
11,063

991


12,054
5,327

597


5,924
16,390

1,588


17,978

[ElCid]

State Residence
Female Students
Male Students
All


Undergraduate
In-State

Out-of-State

All
8,948

486


9,434
4,517

247


4,764
13,465

733


14,198


Graduate
In-State

Out-of-State

All
2,115

505


2,620
810

350


1,160
2,925

855


3,780


Total
In-State

Out-of-State

All
11,063

991


12,054
5,327

597


5,924
16,390

1,588


17,978



So it's a girly school. Got it.

[FUBeAR]

So it's a girly school. Got it.
Woman's College of the University of North Carolina until 1963.

[Gene Henley]

Great points in here.

I'll add that the issue with most votes and part of the reason of the so-called public-private "divide" resides more with the chancellors/presidents moreso than the athletic departments.

But there are schools that would not benefit from certain rules changing and others that obviously would, so there are frustrations. I know the rule allowing non-graduated student-athletes to transfer without penalty was passed by athletic directors last year, but was shot down by the powers that be in the universities. Then of course the ETSU AD laid out the cost of attendance factor, which according to him is pretty substantial.

I don't know of a school that wants to leave the SoCon, and I don't believe schools like UTC and ETSU wants to expand just to say it did. I find it hard to believe anyone would leave, though (Chattanooga is a popular name, but they're not moving just to get away from the SoCon).

[The Cats]

Did someone yell.... BINGO?



VMI and The Citadel are small, with selective acceptance rates targeting a niche audience. That alone sets them apart from a bigger public school like ETSU, WCU or UTC where the missions of those schools are more broad-based and they were set up to educate an audience that is broader than what privates or the militaries target.

[The Cats]

I'm for limited expansion of the SoCon, but not to add schools, just to add schools. We don't want the same mistakes the CAA has made. The SoCon passed on JSU, KSU and others because they realized the SoCon would just be a stepping stone to the FBS for them. We need schools that have their future in the FCS (if it remains, after he big guys go their separate way).

Schools I'd like to see would be William & Mary, Richmond (football), NC A&T or Campbell. All would be quality adds to the SoCon.

[Mocs123]

The military schools are small, niche universities with relatively high admission standards. To be fair to them, they're in a tough spot, being very unique, don't really fit in to your typical "public" or "private" schools. When it comes to athletics the military schools are at a disadvantage recruiting as it's hard to get kids to want to go to a military school and take on all that that entails. They have small enrollment, challenges recruiting and therefore seem to side with the smaller private schools in the SoCon rather than the larger Publics - or at least they seem like they do to me.

To be honest the private schools and the military schools have tighter academic standards than the regional public schools

[Milktruck74]

The Military Schools do have an athletic advantage that has recently emerged. Once they sell their recruits on the idea of graduating with ring from their school, those kids don't want to leave until they achieve that. I'd say they lose less Freshmen and sophomores and juniors to the portal because of this factor...less than the other schools....because, there is little difference in a BA or BS from any school. Sure, they may ask where you went to school or what your degree is in for the first job out of school, but after that nobody cares. However, if you are wearing a Citadel ring in an interview in SC, or a VMI ring in VA, EVERYBODY recognizes that....SO, is it an advantage???? Maybe!

[ElCid]

The Military Schools do have an athletic advantage that has recently emerged. Once they sell their recruits on the idea of graduating with ring from their school, those kids don't want to leave until they achieve that. I'd say they lose less Freshmen and sophomores and juniors to the portal because of this factor...less than the other schools....because, there is little difference in a BA or BS from any school. Sure, they may ask where you went to school or what your degree is in for the first job out of school, but after that nobody cares. However, if you are wearing a Citadel ring in an interview in SC, or a VMI ring in VA, EVERYBODY recognizes that....SO, is it an advantage???? Maybe!

Maybe, but between summer school and early credits, guys are graduating way too early. Sometimes with two years eligibility remaining. We usually lose knob recruits. But we don't normally lose upperclassmen, except when they get their diploma early. That has become a concerning trend lately. The virus added to the woes of post graduates leaving early. Not a huge number, but enough to make holes.

[FUBeAR]

Can we please re-title this thread to:

"Let's discuss the commonly-known differences that all of the SoCon Schools have from one another and we'll sort the schools into 2, no, make that 3, categories to discuss these differences, but some schools will fit in multiple categories, depending on how we feel like we want to characterize them for the difference we want to point to at that time"

STILL - Haven't seen 1 poster define for FUBeAR the DIFFERENCE IN INTERESTS - ATHLETICS-WISE among these 2, or 3, categories of schools.

Can everyone posting in this thread start putting a disclaimer at the top of your post if all you're going to do in the post is talk about the differences between the schools, their advantages and disadvantages, etc. FUBeAR has been following the SoCon for almost 50 years. He knows ALL of that. Don't want to read about it. Am VERY interested in seeing the differences in these schools' athletics INTERESTS by category. If your post contains that info, please use stars and bold large text ... or whatever. FUBeAR really wants to see that info.

[Milktruck74]

Maybe, but between summer school and early credits, guys are graduating way too early. Sometimes with two years eligibility remaining. We usually lose knob recruits. But we don't normally lose upperclassmen, except when they get their diploma early. That has become a concerning trend lately. The virus added to the woes of post graduates leaving early. Not a huge number, but enough to make holes.

Does CIT or VMI require a certain amount of time in the corps in order to get a class ring? Meaning can a student enter with 60 hrs and do summer and get a ring after being in the corps for only 2 years? Just curious, b/c when I went to a military school (before dual enrollment was a thing) your class meant something. The responsibility you were charged with would increase based on class year...so, the leadership skill of a 2nd year would pale in comparison to that of a 4th year...So, real question...is allowing cadets to graduate with a ring after two years cheapening the ring? Not necessarily the degree, because a BA or BS is basically the same, but the time one spends in the corps...and the advancing responsibility...that means quite a bit!

[ElCid]

Does CIT or VMI require a certain amount of time in the corps in order to get a class ring? Meaning can a student enter with 60 hrs and do summer and get a ring after being in the corps for only 2 years? Just curious, b/c when I went to a military school (before dual enrollment was a thing) your class meant something. The responsibility you were charged with would increase based on class year...so, the leadership skill of a 2nd year would pale in comparison to that of a 4th year...So, real question...is allowing cadets to graduate with a ring after two years cheapening the ring? Not necessarily the degree, because a BA or BS is basically the same, but the time one spends in the corps...and the advancing responsibility...that means quite a bit!

Don't know the official current rules, but to be in the Corps, you gotta go through knob year, so I'm sure not many Jrs or Srs would do it. We had a guy transfer in as a soph academically when I was at school. He was still a knob. It's not common. If I was to guess it is three years.

[Sandlapper Spike]

A cadet ring requires three years in the corps of cadets.

[Milktruck74]

A cadet ring requires three years in the corps of cadets.

Good. I know it isn't a huge deterrent, but it might give that sophomore a little pause before they hit the portal. I know if I had already sunk two years into something, I'd probably stick it out one more to get a ring...and if I alread went through an entire Rat/Knob year, I'd probably want to get a chance to see what things were like without having to square every corner and actually sit back in my chair at lunch!

[Mocs123]

I've seen a lot of smoke over the past decade about a rift - and I imagine where there is smoke there is fire, but perhaps it's not necessarily a public vs. private thing, but may be based on other factors. The SoCon has a lot of smaller schools (VMI and Wofford have to be two of the smallest D1 schools out there) - VMI though they've actually been performing well as of late, and Wofford, post Sugardaddy money, probably can't afford an arms race. I imagine they want to keep the conference small and status quo. My guess is that The Citadel is right there with them.

You then have five large schools, with enrollment around 10K - UTC, ETSU, UNCG, Mercer, and WCU (for this discussion I'll leave UNCG out since they don't play FB) but all of those schools seem like they don't want the status quo. ETSU just fired GQ with multiple years left on his contract. WCU made a splash hire (and commitment to FB)with the Bell hire, it's obvious Mercer's administration wants to win and put their teams in the best position for success - they see sports as the university's front porch so to speak.

Though smaller, I see Furman in that category too - being good is important to them. They have history, but want to be successful. They were mentioned with the CAA a year or two ago, they've been mentioned in C-USA conversations. I'm not saying Furman is leaving the SoCon (or looking to leave) but they have a desirable brand. Despite the success Wofford has had in FB and BB over the past decade, nobody is poaching the Terriers.

I'm not sure where Samford fits here - I think they're just glad not to be in the OVC!

I may be wrong, maybe about the whole thing or what schools fit where, but I do think there is certainly a group of schools that want to put up walls around the SoCon - not let anyone in or out, only play OOC games against the Big South and ignore everything else going on in the college football landscape, and I think there are a group of schools that want to improve the SoCon's perception both in FB and BB - they want more playoff bids, more NCAA MBB bids, etc.

[FUBeAR]

I've seen a lot of smoke over the past decade about a rift - and I imagine where there is smoke there is fire, but perhaps it's not necessarily a public vs. private thing, but may be based on other factors. The SoCon has a lot of smaller schools (VMI and Wofford have to be two of the smallest D1 schools out there) - VMI though they've actually been performing well as of late, and Wofford, post Sugardaddy money, probably can't afford an arms race. I imagine they want to keep the conference small and status quo. My guess is that The Citadel is right there with them.

You then have five large schools, with enrollment around 10K - UTC, ETSU, UNCG, Mercer, and WCU (for this discussion I'll leave UNCG out since they don't play FB) but all of those schools seem like they don't want the status quo. ETSU just fired GQ with multiple years left on his contract. WCU made a splash hire (and commitment to FB)with the Bell hire, it's obvious Mercer's administration wants to win and put their teams in the best position for success - they see sports as the university's front porch so to speak.

Though smaller, I see Furman in that category too - being good is important to them. They have history, but want to be successful. They were mentioned with the CAA a year or two ago, they've been mentioned in C-USA conversations. I'm not saying Furman is leaving the SoCon (or looking to leave) but they have a desirable brand. Despite the success Wofford has had in FB and BB over the past decade, nobody is poaching the Terriers.

I'm not sure where Samford fits here - I think they're just glad not to be in the OVC!

I may be wrong, maybe about the whole thing or what schools fit where, but I do think there is certainly a group of schools that want to put up walls around the SoCon - not let anyone in or out, only play OOC games against the Big South and ignore everything else going on in the college football landscape, and I think there are a group of schools that want to improve the SoCon's perception both in FB and BB - they want more playoff bids, more NCAA MBB bids, etc.
So…this is FINALLY getting closer to discussing differing INTERESTS. Let FUBeAR see if he understands what you are saying though…

1) Wofford’s & VMI’s INTEREST is only allowing the SoCon to be comprised of ‘small’ schools. So…the questions FUBeAR has on that are…

a) Did Wofford vote for or against adding Mercer and/or ETSU in 2012/2013?
b) Did VMI vote for or against the additions of such schools as West Virginia, East Carolina, Appy, and Marshall during their 1st ‘tour of duty’ in the SoCon?
c) Why do these 2 schools only want small schools in the SoCon? Do Athletics budgets always perfectly correlate with enrollment? Seems FUBeAR has read plenty about UTC, ETSU, and WCU underfunding…well, everything. No?

2) “Being good” is NOT important to Wofford, The Citadel, and VMI, and maybe Samford…thus not in their INTERESTS. That is saying that all 3 of these schools, maybe 4 (didn't Samford win the Commissioner's Cup in 2022-2023? Seems they must have wanted to 'be good' to do that...no? WCU has NEVER won it and Chatt hasn't won it in almost a decade...and NONE of the 3 'large, public, want to be good' schools have EVER won the Germann Cup (best Women's Sports in the SoCon)...just sayin') are perfectly happy if their Athletics Teams perform at, oh, let’s say .500. Questions…

a) CIT fired a Football Coach with a .450 record (that’s around .500). Wofford did the same with a Coach that was around .400. If they don’t care about being good, why fire these ‘mediocre’ Coaches?
b) Not gonna do it, but FUBeAR knows there are numerous examples of the 5 (UTC, ETSU, WCU, Furman, and Mercer) who you say care about being good not being “good” in some sports for extended periods and not making ‘moves’ to change that. Can you cite specific examples of decisions that clearly show those 3, possibly 4, schools don’t want to be ‘good?”

3) “…group of schools that want to put up walls around the SoCon - not let anyone in or out (1), only play OOC games against the Big South (2) and ignore everything else going on in the college football landscape (3)…” … Questions…

a) Which schools are in this “group?”
b) How do each of these 3 INTERESTS benefit each of these schools?
c) If any of the schools in this group have voted for smart expansion of the SoCon in the past, how de we know and that they are and why would they be opposed to smart expansion now?
d) How does “ignoring everything…” benefit each of these schools? Are we, perhaps, mischaracterizing a desire to remain true to the principles outlined in the NCAA D1 Manual (see FUBeAR’s signature for a quick review) as “ignoring…” If so, is it wrong to seek to abide by the foundational principles of that in which we are engaged or should ‘everyone else is doing it’ be the crux of our guiding principles?

4) “…and I think there are a group of schools that want to improve the SoCon's perception both in FB and BB - they want more playoff bids, more NCAA MBB bids, etc. Questions…

a) By extension, this means that those schools in the ‘other’ group do NOT want to “improve the SoCon’s perception both in FB and BB” and they DON’T want “more playoff bids, more NCAA MBB bids.” Right?
b) How in the wide world of sports could NOT wanting those things benefit any school’s interests?


https://youtu.be/TM-G0bkl8MQ?feature=shared

[kdinva]

Does CIT or VMI require a certain amount of time in the corps in order to get a class ring?

Five semesters at VMI

[Catamount87]

....


https://youtu.be/TM-G0bkl8MQ?feature=shared

Any post that includes a reference to or includes a video of, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? deserves the gold star post award of the day! That, of course, assumes that said poster is also a Dapper Dan man rather than a Pomade user.

[Milktruck74]

Any post that includes a reference to or includes a video of, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? deserves the gold star post award of the day! That, of course, assumes that said poster is also a Dapper Dan man rather than a Pomade user.

I thought it was Fop???

[FUBeAR]

I thought it was Fop???
Dapper Dan - great pomade - FUBeAR’s & Ulysses Everett McGill’s brand
Fop - bad pomade - don’t want it

And…if we’re gonna get distracted from the topic at hand, let’s make it worth our while and spend a couple of minutes with FUBeAR’s favorite scene from that fantastic film…


https://youtu.be/_dl2L4v6ecM?feature=shared

[Mocs123]

Maybe I'm completely wrong FUBeAR. Maybe there is not public - private friction in the SoCon or perhaps even no varying interests. In fact I hear the presidents and AD's just all sit around and sing Kumbaya during meetings. Is that closer to the truth?

I'm being a smart ass, but I do know you have insight on the issues and would love to hear your thoughts.

[FUBeAR]

Maybe I'm completely wrong FUBeAR. Maybe there is not public - private friction in the SoCon or perhaps even no varying interests. In fact I hear the presidents and AD's just all sit around and sing Kumbaya during meetings. Is that closer to the truth?

I'm being a smart ass, but I do know you have insight on the issues and would love to hear your thoughts.
No - FUBeAR has no insight into this alleged “rift.” You have never seen FUBeAR talk about how much better the SoCon would be without the large public schools and/or why that is the case. We been whippin’ y’all’s butts for years and FUBeAR fully expects that to continue for years to come.

BUT - FUBeAR sees a lot of y’all speaking so knowledgeably and seem to be pained by all of the encumbrances your schools / teams have to overcome to compete on some level somewhere. And, y’all seem to be able to point to how different the INTERESTS are between these categories that y’all have created.

And…that’s what FUBeAR is tryna find out … how are the INTERESTS so different? … you, finally, were able to define a few interests … and vaguely discussed the schism. FUBeAR’s questions were to hopefully dig in further on those and he added some facts and a little bit of opinion within his questions.

FUBeAR thinks this is just one of those things that is easy to bring up and it’s easy to take sides … but it gets really hard when we’re asked to define our position, the ‘others’ positions, and how/why those differ … really hard. Think maybe this thread has gone a little way in proving that.


Did you like the Sirens?

[SU DOG]

Well once again, I started this thread because of the recent words of the ETSU AD. He specifically called out the "privates" on the 2 issues of expansion and COA. He also named UTC as a school that agreed with him on these issues. I think he clearly emphasized there does exist a difference of interests between these SoCon divisions. How each school lines up, of course, he did not elaborate. My concern was whether the long-rumored rift was now worse. I also don't think it is to the point of teams leaving, but who can predict anything with the changing landscape nowadays. I have certainly enjoyed reading the opinions and info that many different posters have contributed here.

[FUBeAR]

Well once again, I started this thread because of the recent words of the ETSU AD. He specifically called out the "privates" on the 2 issues of expansion and COA. He also named UTC as a school that agreed with him on these issues. I think he clearly emphasized there does exist a difference of interests between these SoCon divisions. How each school lines up, of course, he did not elaborate. My concern was whether the long-rumored rift was now worse. I also don't think it is to the point of teams leaving, but who can predict anything with the changing landscape nowadays. I have certainly enjoyed reading the opinions and info that many different posters have contributed here.
Right - but "expansion" without a stated purpose and stated expected benefits is not really an "interest" as much as it is a "concept" (maybe).

And there were a bunch of wonderful things called out that expansion would provide - more playoff teams, survival of the conference itself, lower travel costs, better scheduling opportunities for women's sports....maybe more.

OK - now - tell FUBeAR WHY those 'others' - those Not ETSU / Not UTC / Not WCU DON’T want to realize these clear benefits. Why is it or would it be in the 'others' interests NOT to expand?

The ETSU said that ETSU, UTC, and WCU (maybe) are GREAT because the are being PROACTIVE regarding expansion, but the OTHERS, they are bad...because they are being REACTIVE. So, the President and Athletics Directors at those OTHERS are either stupid, or lazy or both ... RIGHT? How else can one explain that they have their head in the sand (FUBeAR thinks he might have even heard that phrase used) while they are facing an existential crisis?

COA - show or tell FUBeAR ALL the numbers for each school....before he has much of an opinion on that. The ETSU threw out a few numbers and made a claim related to some of those numbers. FUBeAR's experience with that kind of presentation is that it ain't quite as simple as it were presen-tated.

Expansion is major - COA is something that's more bite-size and direct $'s can be called out ... It's more tangible ... It's part of a Minor Point / Major Point CLOSE that Sales Peeps use ... not worth any more pixels.

[Mocs123]

To be fair - I'm not sure if I'm for expansion of the SoCon or not, I guess it depends on the schools. I guess I'm old school and actually like playing everyone in the conference in football every year - I think we play everyone in the conference twice in basketball. In football we all have to have a money game and our current schedule still allows us a money game and two OOC games in addition to our conference slate. Quality OOC games are hard to come by, particularly with more and more of the local quality teams going FBS. I personally hate to see teams expecting to compete for the conference championship playing D2 schools, or Pioneer schools (though playing Pioneer is probably smart since all the committee seems to see is a D1 win).

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't expand, but what does expansion buy the SoCon? Are some schools wanting the SoCon to split up in divisions ?

If the SoCon were to expand what are the biggest factors in evaluating who to bring in - should we look at media markets? the strength of the football program? the strength of the basketball program? enrollment? academic prowess or prestige? history? other factors?

Off the top of my head - as a Chattanooga fan I'd like to propose Austin Peay - Nashville market, quality football (recently) and basketball and Eastern Kentucky - Lexington market, decent football and basketball. Lipscomb (basketball only) - again Nashville market - but quality basketball.

Richmond has been mentioned, and I could get on board with them - particularly if you could get them for all sports (though I don't think they'd leave the A10) - Richmond market, quality football and basketball.
W&M is starting to get to be a really long road trip - but I could get on board with them.
Elon is right in our footprint - not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing - otherwise they're kinid of meh.
North Carolina A&T - quality football
Campbell - improving sports, in the SoCon footprint
Tennessee Tech - close "rival" for Chattanooga and ETSU (and APSU if they were to join), but for some reason kind of meh to me.
TSU - Nashville market, decent following, great band - band rivalry with WCU?
UT Martin - way outside our footprint, no media market, decent football
tUNA - again a pretty good rival for Chattanooga (and perhaps Samford) but outside the footprint a little too far for most SoCon schools perhaps.
Charleston Southern - The Citadel would never let them join, but they're very meh anyways - at least from a Chattanooga fans perspective.
Gardner-Webb - right in the SoCon footprint, shunned by the SoCon for years, despite some decent years in FB they're sort of meh from my perspective.

[wcugrad95]

Again I'd say the "rift" is overblown. As a few have put in their thoughts about who to go after and why (market they are in, geographical fit for our footprint, quality of programs, etc.) it seems even more evident that most of at least us hardcore football fans have very similar thoughts. Expand if it makes sense and adds to the conference in the money sports, but do so with quality teams that don't create crazy travel nightmares.

So back to FUBeAR's point, we all would appear to have very similar interests (at least as fans) and expansion is more about who we want to get vs a public or private thing. We all have a little bit different take, but in most that I have seen mentioned, many of the same schools keep showing up on the lists.

And don't sleep on the band rivalry that could be created adding NC A&T! Historically their fan base also travels well, so that would be another bonus.

[WestCoastAggie]

Again I'd say the "rift" is overblown. As a few have put in their thoughts about who to go after and why (market they are in, geographical fit for our footprint, quality of programs, etc.) it seems even more evident that most of at least us hardcore football fans have very similar thoughts. Expand if it makes sense and adds to the conference in the money sports, but do so with quality teams that don't create crazy travel nightmares.

So back to FUBeAR's point, we all would appear to have very similar interests (at least as fans) and expansion is more about who we want to get vs a public or private thing. We all have a little bit different take, but in most that I have seen mentioned, many of the same schools keep showing up on the lists.

And don't sleep on the band rivalry that could be created adding NC A&T! Historically their fan base also travels well, so that would be another bonus.

While I and a few others would be interested in this, most Aggie Alumni either A.) don't care or, B.) want to return to the MEAC.

SMH.

[caribbeanhen]

Call security

CH approaching Samford

going out on field if possible

update

TD pass to self complete

beautiful campus and field

[Mocs123]

I'm pretty positive that it was a coincidence and bad luck that Chattanooga didn't get a bye week until week 10, but some people have felt that the SoCon does things like that intentionally to the Mocs.

[FUBeAR]

I'm pretty positive that it was a coincidence and bad luck that Chattanooga didn't get a bye week until week 10, but some people have felt that the SoCon does things like that intentionally to the Mocs.
FUBeAR has seen / heard every school in the SoCon (including FUBeAR’s Team(s)…and even FUBeAR his ownself) whine and complain about something the SoCon did to them scheduling-wise … except maybe Woffy. The Terriers are the hometown pet, but all 8/9 other SoCon schools get a fairly equal share of reamings … over time.

Don’t agree?

Do like FUBeAR did for the FCS Playoffs…10 year study of ALL SoCon Teams schedules, where their byes fell, which Team(s) did/did not have to play that season-opening Conference game, etc., etc.

Maybe you can get a bellhop to do it for you. Those peeps whine more about the SoCon Office screwing them than any other 3 SoCon schools combined.

[wcugrad95]

As I peruse most of the SOCON boards, there is no doubt that every fanbase thinks that the SOCON refs are against their team. In reality, the league officiating is simply horrendous on all fronts IMO. Plenty of terrible calls to go around each and every Saturday. As for the scheduling - who in the front office thinks it is a good idea for ANY of our teams to square-off in week #1? If there is ever a week for a team to perform poorly, that would be it.

[FUBeAR]

As I peruse most of the SOCON boards, there is no doubt that every fanbase thinks that the SOCON refs are against their team. In reality, the league officiating is simply horrendous on all fronts IMO. Plenty of terrible calls to go around each and every Saturday. As for the scheduling - who in the front office thinks it is a good idea for ANY of our teams to square-off in week #1? If there is ever a week for a team to perform poorly, that would be it.LOL - the best thing that happened to WCU Football this season was having the opportunity to play #7 Samford so early in the season, when they had to replace 9/11th’s of their Defense AND to catch them during Summer T’Storm season with an on-the-road 5 hour rain delay. That was the catalyst that put the Catamounts on all of the pundits’ radars enabling a rapid ascension up the rankings.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

Off the top of my head - as a Chattanooga fan I'd like to propose Austin Peay - Nashville market, quality football (recently)



You mean the Austin Peay program whose living brain donor of a head coach went and hired Furman Georgie as his TE coach.

[Mocs123]

Despite the fact that I seem to remember ETSU fans being excited about the GQ hire - I never thought it was, but personally I don't think Austin Peay hiring GQ as their TE coach was a bad move - he wasn't a good HC - he wasn't even a great coordinator, but he might be a good position coach, and if nothing else, he has been an FCS HC before and can provide some help for Ferris who I believe is becoming a HC for the first time.

[FUBeAR]

Despite the fact that I seem to remember ETSU fans being excited about the GQ hire - I never thought it was, but personally I don't think Austin Peay hiring GQ as their TE coach was a bad move - he wasn't a good HC - he wasn't even a great coordinator, but he might be a good position coach, and if nothing else, he has been an FCS HC before and can provide some help for Ferris who I believe is becoming a HC for the first time.

He can also walk into any HS in the State of Tennessee and swing this around, providing instant credibility and deference…



Top 25 Winningest
Coaches
in the history
of Tennessee
High School Football


Coach
Games
W/L/T
Pct.
Years Coaching


George Quarles (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=George%20Quarles)
266
250-16-0
94.00%
1999-2016


Kevin Creasy (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Kevin%20Creasy)
164
146-18-0
89.00%
2008-2019


Humphrey Heywood (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Humphrey%20Heywood)
189
161-20-8
89.00%
1940-1960


Calvin Short (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Calvin%20Short)
235
205-30-0
87.20%
1976-1993


Gary Rankin (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Gary%20Rankin)
517
440-77-0
85.10%
1982-2020


Carlton Flatt (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Carlton%20Flatt)
426
355-68-3
83.90%
1970-2006


Benny Monroe (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Benny%20Monroe)
271
224-47-0
82.70%
1979-2009


Ted Wilson (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Ted%20Wilson)
297
241-54-2
81.70%
1966-1992


Rodney Saulsberry (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Rodney%20Saulsberry)
206
167-39-0
81.10%
2004-2019


Ricky Bowers (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Ricky%20Bowers)
232
188-44-0
81.00%
1994-2017


Vic Grider (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Vic%20Grider)
272
217-55-0
79.80%
1996-2019


Clint Satterfield (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Clint%20Satterfield)
299
238-61-0
79.60%
1984-2007


Nick Coutras (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Nick%20Coutras)
193
151-41-1
78.60%
1970-1986


Graham Clark (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Graham%20Clark)
301
233-68-0
77.40%
1993-2017


Jim Satterfield (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Jim%20Satterfield)
241
185-54-2
77.40%
1962-1983


Mike Lunsford (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Mike%20Lunsford)
293
225-68-0
76.80%
1989-2012


Tom Nix (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Tom%20Nix)
340
255-78-7
76.60%
1953-1985


Randy Barnes (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Randy%20Barnes)
249
190-59-0
76.30%
1982-2002


Jeff Morris (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Jeff%20Morris)
291
222-69-0
76.30%
1996-2017


Joe Gaddis (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Joe%20Gaddis)
376
283-93-0
75.30%
1983-2019


Richard Ross (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Richard%20Ross)
181
136-45-0
75.10%
1967-1983


E.B. Etter (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=E.B.%20Etter)
444
321-109-14
74.70%
1943-1983


Rod Sturdivant (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Rod%20Sturdivant)
277
207-70-0
74.70%
1982-2003


Ken Colquette (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Ken%20Colquette)
284
212-72-0
74.60%
1980-2013


Roger Perry (http://www.ahsfhs.org/tennessee/coaches/coachestop.asp?Coach=Roger%20Perry)
357
265-92-0
74.20%
1984-2012

[SU DOG]

Call security

CH approaching Samford

going out on field if possible

update

TD pass to self complete

beautiful campus and field


CH, I take your post to be literal. If you are still here in B'ham, would you like to be my guest for tomorrow's MBB game vs Belmont? Tipoff is at 2 PM in our beautiful Pete Hanna Center Arena, and I do have an extra ticket. Let me know and I can arrange meeting place, time, etc.

[caribbeanhen]

CH, I take your post to be literal. If you are still here in B'ham, would you like to be my guest for tomorrow's MBB game vs Belmont? Tipoff is at 2 PM in our beautiful Pete Hanna Center Arena, and I do have an extra ticket. Let me know and I can arrange meeting place, time, etc.

SU Dog,

I am very humbled by your gracious offer and I was indeed on your beautiful campus yesterday and did a 25 yard sprint into the EZ catching my imaginary football for a TD, hopefully the security cameras didn’t see it as it wasn’t really a sprint… But I’m on a very tight schedule here in beautiful Hoover and leaving early tomorrow morning for Yankeeville… a very long drive ahead.. So unfortunately for me because I’m and old hoops fan, I have to decline your very hospitable offer good Sir. Maybe next time.

Also had some really good pulled pork in a funky little area of Birmingham

place was called Saw’s Soul Kitchen, as we were finishing up about 7 guys came in wearing Florida A&M looking sports attire colors, green and orange with what I thought was the Rattler logo. I asked one of em so you guys are playing Howard right? He was like ughhh Howard? Who’s that? On closer inspection it was not a Rattler but a Dragon logo and another guy told me they have been mistaken for Florida A&M before. They were all very nice to the confused CH by the way. I still don’t know who they were ..I’m often confused these days but it’s not dementia yet….

[garland823]

I'm pretty positive that it was a coincidence and bad luck that Chattanooga didn't get a bye week until week 10, but some people have felt that the SoCon does things like that intentionally to the Mocs.

VMI didn't get a bye week in 2017.

[FUBeAR]

SU Dog,

I am very humbled by your gracious offer and I was indeed on your beautiful campus yesterday and did a 25 yard sprint into the EZ catching my imaginary football for a TD, hopefully the security cameras didn’t see it as it wasn’t really a sprint… But I’m on a very tight schedule here in beautiful Hoover and leaving early tomorrow morning for Yankeeville… a very long drive ahead.. So unfortunately for me because I’m and old hoops fan, I have to decline your very hospitable offer good Sir. Maybe next time.

Also had some really good pulled pork in a funky little area of Birmingham

place was called Saw’s Soul Kitchen, as we were finishing up about 7 guys came in wearing Florida A&M looking sports attire colors, green and orange with what I thought was the Rattler logo. I asked one of em so you guys are playing Howard right? He was like ughhh Howard? Who’s that? On closer inspection it was not a Rattler but a Dragon logo and another guy told me they have been mistaken for Florida A&M before. They were all very nice to the confused CH by the way. I still don’t know who they were ..I’m often confused these days but it’s not dementia yet….No orange; gold
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/7dabe5b3-428c-4cd8-9859-80db0d749ca6.f519804e8bb897b00c5458213ccf78a6.jpeg ?odnHeight=640&odnWidth=640&odnBg=FFFFFF

[SU DOG]

CH, I hope there will be a next time that we can make this, or a football game happen. As for security cameras, your biggest danger would be that Coach Hatcher gets a glimpse and contacts you about possible Portal entry and wants to offer. As for the Dragons, it probably was UAB as FUBeAR posted. There is a HS team in B'ham, Wenonah, that has the Dragon mascot, but their colors are White and Gold.
I do wish you safe travels and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[caribbeanhen]

CH, I hope there will be a next time that we can make this, or a football game happen. As for security cameras, your biggest danger would be that Coach Hatcher gets a glimpse and contacts you about possible Portal entry and wants to offer. As for the Dragons, it probably was UAB as FUBeAR posted. There is a HS team in B'ham, Wenonah, that has the Dragon mascot, but their colors are White and Gold.
I do wish you safe travels and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

SU DOG,
I’m not sure when I’ll be back in Birmingham, but I will definitely make more of a Gentleman's heads up next time I’m down this way. That’s some funny stuff about the transfer portal, if anybody actually saw that they would get a good laugh. I’ll be pulling for Samford next year!

what are they building in the end zone? It looks like some type of walkway

and the thing is I’m so FCS focused that it never even dawned on me that there was an FBS team in Birmingham. I mean, of course I know UAB has a football team but it was the last thing on my mind and I have no idea what their mascot is.

Thank you FuBeaR for the reminder

[SU DOG]

Samford is opening a new $65 million Recreation Complex. The north endzone will have a new walkway that, IMO, adds a good look for the stadium. The complex will have several new courts, additional training equipment, and offer practice advantages primarily for basketball and volleyball. Unfortunately, football will not see much benefit other than the aesthetic appearance of the stadium. The complex will be a terrific addition especially for students.

We did have a recent benefactor, and former football player to donate a huge chunk to football, however, and Seibert Stadium has just recently been renamed. I have fingers crossed that stadium upgrades will follow, but I know nothing.

https://www.samford.edu/news/2022/06/Samford-Announces-State-of-the-Art-Campus-Recreation-Complex

[caribbeanhen]

Samford is opening a new $65 million Recreation Complex. The north endzone will have a new walkway that, IMO, adds a good look for the stadium. The complex will have several new courts, additional training equipment, and offer practice advantages primarily for basketball and volleyball. Unfortunately, football will not see much benefit other than the aesthetic appearance of the stadium. The complex will be a terrific addition especially for students.

We did have a recent benefactor, and former football player to donate a huge chunk to football, however, and Seibert Stadium has just recently been renamed. I have fingers crossed that stadium upgrades will follow, but I know nothing.

https://www.samford.edu/news/2022/06/Samford-Announces-State-of-the-Art-Campus-Recreation-Complex

That looks spectacular and that walkway looks Disney like

SU DOG, before I left the area my daughter took us for a ride in a very well to do neighborhood, she commented that she would like to live up there and I told her well don’t look at me. It was high up on a bluff and looking down you could see the entire Samford campus, very scenic indeed.

completely off subject, but they did mention something to me about the water bill situation at the apartment complex they live in. I’ll contact you privately if you tell me you can fill me in on the water situation in the Birmingham Metro. Sounds like some home cooking going on with the bills.

[SU DOG]

Can't be of help with water bill info CH. I live in a suburb of B'ham and don't have to worry about their charges. Shades Mountain is just south of the campus and that has to be the area you mentioned. The SU President's mansion is up there overlooking the campus. Come visit again soon.