What are the FCS Ramifications from the Pac-12 losing Colorado?

[WestCoastAggie]

To make this a FCS-focused discussion, how does the impending implosion of the Pac-12 affect FCS, specifically the Big Sky and MVFC?

Will the Montana Schools and XDSUs be called up by the Mountain West?

Will those WAC schools clamoring for an FBS invite finally get one?

Will these tremors be felt as far east as the Coastal Athletic Association?

Can the MEAC survive this?

[Laker]

I think this all depends if the Pac loses another school. The Big 12 won't stay at 13- they have a lot of options. Does the BIG add two more West Coast schools or do they leave a spot open for Notre Dame? Does the Pac raid the MWC? If they do we could see some FCS schools move up. Just so many ifs- today doesn't settle anything, just causes more speculation.

Who gets the next rose?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2EJ6U8WwAAKcZs?format=jpg&name=900x900

[NDSUKurt]

To make this a FCS-focused discussion, how does the impending implosion of the Pac-12 affect FCS, specifically the Big Sky and MVFC?

Will the Montana Schools and XDSUs be called up by the Mountain West?

Will those WAC schools clamoring for an FBS invite finally get one?

Will these tremors be felt as far east as the Coastal Athletic Association?

Can the MEAC survive this?


It depends on how much the Pac 12 expands, (and also the Big 12). If the Pac 12 decides to simply add 1 school and thus stay at 10 members (san Diego State), then there won't be much of an impact (one Texas school like UTEP, UTSA, SMU, North Texas) If the Pac 12 decides to add 3 school and get back to 12 (San Diego State, maybe Boise State, maybe Colorado State), then there will be more impact on the Mountain West, and I could see them adding NDSU, SDSU, and a Texas school (UTEP, UTSA, SMU, North Texas), or maybe 3 Texas schools. If there were 3 Texas schools taken from the American Athletic Conference, that may allow NDSU and SDSU to move up to the American.

Also, the Big 12 will be at 11 teams, so they may want to get to 12 teams (Memphis, South Florida). That would also cause a small shift, but it is all too soon to tell.

[taper]

My most immediate concern is whether Colorado will use this as an excuse to buy out NDSU's game there in 2024. That's going to be really hard to refill on such short notice.

[DFW HOYA]

To make this a FCS-focused discussion, how does the impending implosion of the Pac-12 affect FCS, specifically the Big Sky and MVFC?
Will the Montana Schools and XDSUs be called up by the Mountain West?
Will those WAC schools clamoring for an FBS invite finally get one?
Will these tremors be felt as far east as the Coastal Athletic Association?
Can the MEAC survive this?


Will the Montana Schools and XDSUs be called up by the Mountain West?
The Pac-12 will call from the AAC more likely than the MWC: think SMU, Memphis, Tulane, Rice.

Will the Montana Schools and XDSUs be called up by the Mountain West?
No

Will those WAC schools clamoring for an FBS invite finally get one?
No

Will these tremors be felt as far east as the Coastal Athletic Association?
Delaware is looking but it won't be imminent. Maybe the CAA looks at a Patriot League backfill (Fordham) then.

Can the MEAC survive this?
You're kidding, right?

[Sir William]

Who gets the next rose?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2EJ6U8WwAAKcZs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Arizona.

Then Arizona State. Then Utah.

[Sitting Bull]

Given the landscape today, to the question, not seeing much impact at all. There’s very little interest now among the current FCS club, particularly the blue ribbon programs, to move into the lower echelon of FBS - not to mention upside.

JMU was really the last program you could see legitimately moving and that was only because the Sun Belt morphed into a great home for them - even better than the CAA - in terms of peer schools and interest.

I think the rest of FCS, especially the top 5 conferences, like their respective homes, enjoy winning and like competing for championships.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I think this all depends if the Pac loses another school. The Big 12 won't stay at 13- they have a lot of options. Does the BIG add two more West Coast schools or do they leave a spot open for Notre Dame? Does the Pac raid the MWC? If they do we could see some FCS schools move up. Just so many ifs- today doesn't settle anything, just causes more speculation.

Who gets the next rose?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2EJ6U8WwAAKcZs?format=jpg&name=900x900

For the Big XII, I think the answer might be Connecticut -- if it wants the rose.

Then next up are the 4-corner schools and, perhaps, Gonzaga.

[kdinva]

My most immediate concern is whether Colorado will use this as an excuse to buy out NDSU's game there in 2024. That's going to be really hard to refill on such short notice.

Prime will sub with someone like MVSU.....

[unknown-swac]

Given the landscape today, to the question, not seeing much impact at all. There’s very little interest now among the current FCS club, particularly the blue ribbon programs, to move into the lower echelon of FBS - not to mention upside.

JMU was really the last program you could see legitimately moving and that was only because the Sun Belt morphed into a great home for them - even better than the CAA - in terms of peer schools and interest.

I think the rest of FCS, especially the top 5 conferences, like their respective homes, enjoy winning and like competing for championships.

You folks have been saying this since App State left. Somehow you still believe, after every top team in FCS that got the opportunity to leave did, that teams would rather stay in FCS. Anyone that gets an invite accepts it because the lower echelon of FBS is still a higher notch on the totem pole than FCS. There is no way of getting around it. The only reason the MVFC hasn't been gutted is because of geography and thus far no one else has had a reason to add another FCS team. Pretty much all of the good southern teams have left and others wouldn't blink if they got an invite... especially considering that the G5 gets access to the playoffs now.

[Sitting Bull]

You folks have been saying this since App State left. Somehow you still believe, after every top team in FCS that got the opportunity to leave did, that teams would rather stay in FCS. Anyone that gets an invite accepts it because the lower echelon of FBS is still a higher notch on the totem pole than FCS. There is no way of getting around it. The only reason the MVFC hasn't been gutted is because of geography and thus far no one else has had a reason to add another FCS team. Pretty much all of the good southern teams have left and others wouldn't blink if they got an invite... especially considering that the G5 gets access to the playoffs now.

Yes, that’s because you have programs like Montana and Delaware openly saying their goal is to be better where they are and they see no upside to G5, from the AD at Montana. And of course Idaho came back.

You’re at the point where CUSA is trying to get Austin Peay and Utah Tech.

G5 is no man’s land. There’s no end game and the economics are too risky.

[ElCid]

You folks have been saying this since App State left. Somehow you still believe, after every top team in FCS that got the opportunity to leave did, that teams would rather stay in FCS. Anyone that gets an invite accepts it because the lower echelon of FBS is still a higher notch on the totem pole than FCS. There is no way of getting around it. The only reason the MVFC hasn't been gutted is because of geography and thus far no one else has had a reason to add another FCS team. Pretty much all of the good southern teams have left and others wouldn't blink if they got an invite... especially considering that the G5 gets access to the playoffs now.

This is too general of a statement. I totally disagree with your view that all "others" would jump if they got an invite. There are schools that would, but I would bet most would not. The schools that would are usually growing public schools looking for exposure. There are exceptions, like Liberty, but only that they are private. They were still growing. Stagnant or stable public and privates are either content or realize the futility or expense to move up. If I was to take a guess at the number of those with a real "serious" desire to move up out of the 128 current FCS teams, I would put it at about 25, at most and I think I may be overestimating, and many of the publics would face political opposition within their state from other FBS teams. Depends on the state obviously. And by serious, I mean not just fan fantasies, but support from the movers and shakers.

[SeattleCat]

In my opinion, after the dust settles at the top, the remaining FBS teams not in a P5 or 4 conference (I think there's a good chance the pac 12 dies after being gutted like it was) and the Top FCS teams need to reclassify into a new division. If not, they will fade into obscurity due too a lack of funds, support and exposure. I believe most FCS teams with enough of a brand and support will go this route to obtain the necessary funds to keep operating at a relevant level.

[Reign of Terrier]

When it comes to the subject of this thread: I think it's difficult to impossible to say anything for certain.

As it pertains FCS in general, I think the lesson of the last decade (call it the CUSA/Sun Belt lesson) is that moving to an FBS conference is really not worth it financially unless you can minimize your fixed cost. I remember hearing/reading about why ODU decided to move to the Sun Belt in the last year: the travel for CUSA, even if in theory the pay out from the media was good, was just not worth it.

The reason why we're seeing the programs we're seeing going FBS (SHSU, JSU, KSU, etc) is because the travel is not so bad. I think everyone else pretty much understands this dymanic. Montana was invited to the WAC in the last 2000s and turned them down when conference realignment was all the rage. I don't think they had this strategy in mind, but they genuinely felt that FCS was the best place for them and their fans.

Almost a generation later, and with NDSU pretty much still running things (yes I know SDSU won it this past year blah blah) and the shine of the playoff system - especially now that the FBS has one - is no longer there. I've seen stalwart fans of strong FCS programs basically say "yeah the playoffs are nice, but we haven't won it an a bowl game would be cool" - and they're right because it is! FBS currently has the best format with everyone who isn't elite still have an opportunity to end their season on a positive note. FCS doesn't have that, and a couple programs pretty much strangle the subdivision.

Anyway, I think the above dynamic may push teams like the Montanas, the Idahos, the Dakota States, etc to eventually move up. Obviously, the ideal arrangement would be to form their own conference, but that's just not going to happen for logistical or NCAA issues. Same with that alliance with the WAC/A-Sun. It's just too hard.

I think what sucks about FCS right now is that there are lots of teams with the money and capability to make that next step, that could probably pull it off a generation ago when move up criteria wasn't so strict, and so we have lots of programs that are really good and could make a successful jump (aforementioned flagship universities in rural states) or have a lot of resources and want to make the jump (the WAC schools). As a result, we have like 5 or 6 different species of programs at this level, from the aforementioned two, to HBCUs with fewer resources and stronger ties to non-FCS HBCUs, eastern schools that like FCS as they have a history and also have no interest in moving because of their basketball money (think the socon and CAA), and then you have the programs that have one foot in D1 and one foot in D2, like the pioneer and NEC and patriot.

For me, I welcome a future where FCS teams can make the jump to FBS more easily, and I think in time it will happen. It would be best for everyone: more people get a free college education, and the FCS returns to what it was supposed to be: a place for D1 competition and *limits* on the financial rat race that is college football. damn i thought this post would be 2 paragraphs.

[Sitting Bull]

Just to refresh memories, this is the q&a with the Montana AD last year. He covers a lot of ground but it’s interesting to see his comments on “is it worth it” (spoiler, it’s not) and also how he even sees no upside should the entire Big Sky move up. Basically it just raises their costs to compete with the same schools,

https://406mtsports.com/college/big-sky-conference/university-of-montana/montana-grizzlies-are-staying-in-the-big-sky-for-now-and-ad-kent-haslam-explains/article_539a1396-77f2-11ed-b132-9b9ce3fd41bc.amp.html

[Professor Chaos]

Yes, that’s because you have programs like Montana and Delaware openly saying their goal is to be better where they are and they see no upside to G5, from the AD at Montana. And of course Idaho came back.

You’re at the point where CUSA is trying to get Austin Peay and Utah Tech.

G5 is no man’s land. There’s no end game and the economics are too risky.
I don't know about Montana and Delaware but I can tell you at NDSU the signs are pretty clear that they're aiming to compete with G5 teams when you look at comments from the AD, the head coach, and the scale of the new indoor practice facility. There is a large chunk of NDSU's fan base that views the FCS as a no man's land after watching teams who NDSU has recently competed for FCS national championships with bolting over the last few years. I can tell you that what the G5 provides is the elimination of the glass ceiling that NDSU football has found itself up against at the FCS level. It is absolutely a financial risk but at this point, at least for NDSU, maintaining the status quo in the FCS presents risk as well.

[Sitting Bull]

I don't know about Montana and Delaware but I can tell you at NDSU the signs are pretty clear that they're aiming to compete with G5 teams when you look at comments from the AD, the head coach, and the scale of the new indoor practice facility. There is a large chunk of NDSU's fan base that views the FCS as a no man's land after watching teams who NDSU has recently competed for FCS national championships with bolting over the last few years. I can tell you that what the G5 provides is the elimination of the glass ceiling that NDSU football has found itself up against at the FCS level. It is absolutely a financial risk but at this point, at least for NDSU, maintaining the status quo in the FCS presents risk as well.

A couple losses to Ball State or sending your basketball team to play Troy would probably bring those upset Bison fans back to reality - I guess we’re not talking the thousands who still flock to Frisco for a shot at a national championship.

I can’t believe either the economics cited by the Montana AD would look any better in North Dakota.

In a way, you wouldn’t mind seeing the Bison move their entire athletic program into some G5 league. If the fans are that arrogant, go for it.

[Professor Chaos]

A couple losses to Ball State or sending your basketball team to play Troy would probably bring those upset Bison fans back to reality - I guess we’re not talking the thousands who still flock to Frisco for a shot at a national championship.

I can’t believe either the economics cited by the Montana AD would look any better in North Dakota.

In a way, you wouldn’t mind seeing the Bison move their entire athletic program into some G5 league. If the fans are that arrogant, go for it.
NDSU already outpaces the majority of G5 schools when it comes to ticket revenue and donor contributions. There's reason to think both of those numbers would rise further with a move to a G5 conference as would other revenue streams like conference media package, NCAA tournament shares, and CFP payouts. Still it's likely either the university or the student body would need to pony up some dollars for that move since that's how most G5 schools fund their athletic departments. But when schools like Sam Houston are making the jump with a budget (and fan support) a fraction of NDSU's there's plenty of reason to believe it's doable if the right conference opportunity comes along and they can find a regional partner (or 3) to make the jump with them.

[Sitting Bull]

NDSU already outpaces the majority of G5 schools when it comes to ticket revenue and donor contributions. There's reason to think both of those numbers would rise further with a move to a G5 conference as would other revenue streams like conference media package, NCAA tournament shares, and CFP payouts. Still it's likely either the university or the student body would need to pony up some dollars for that move since that's how most G5 schools fund their athletic departments. But when schools like Sam Houston are making the jump with a budget (and fan support) a fraction of NDSU's there's plenty of reason to believe it's doable if the right conference opportunity comes along and they can find a regional partner (or 3) to make the jump with them.

I’ll just reference your opening line - how NDSU already outpaces the majority of G5 programs in ticket revenue and donor contributions.

Why? I have a hunch - because you built a winning, almost dominant, football program that wins national championships. That’s what builds a fan base. That’s why thousands flow to Frisco STILL. That’s why people donate. That’s why people around the country are familiar with NDSU football.

Now if you think that’s going to grow and continue because you enter the low end of FBS, I think that’s the flaw. There’s no logical landing spot and the impact on your other sports programs isn’t even considered.

Back to the subject thread, I don’t see any impact on FCS - at least none of any stature.

[Professor Chaos]

I’ll just reference your opening line - how NDSU already outpaces the majority of G5 programs in ticket revenue and donor contributions.

Why? I have a hunch - because you built a winning, almost dominant, football program that wins national championships. That’s what builds a fan base. That’s why thousands flow to Frisco STILL. That’s why people donate. That’s why people around the country are familiar with NDSU football.

Now if you think that’s going to grow and continue because you enter the low end of FBS, I think that’s the flaw. There’s no logical landing spot and the impact on your other sports programs isn’t even considered.

Back to the subject thread, I don’t see any impact on FCS - at least none of any stature.
This might be hard to see from afar but NDSU football support is withering. Yes, it's still outstanding for this level and they're in no danger of going bankrupt anytime soon but they've reached their peak in the FCS and there's nowhere to go but down from here. Fewer season tickets are sold each year, fewer people go down to Frisco each year, and even the game at US Bank Stadium this year (home of the Minnesota Vikings) is not selling well compared to their game at Target Field (home of the Minnesota Twins) 4 years ago. That's the risk of staying in the FCS for NDSU - even national title contenders aren't able to maintain fan support.

NDSU's admin faced the same critiques 20 years ago about not being able to afford D1 and not being able to support non-revenue sports in the Great West conference which was a group of new D1 misfits stretching from the Dakotas to Colorado to Utah to California. They handled it well due in no small part to a regional partner who made the move with them in SDSU. I do believe they'll need the same for a move to an FBS to be successful for the non-revenue sports. I believe NDSU would be FBS today if they had their way but the main hurdle continues to be geography and convincing an FBS conference (not named CUSA) to accept that.

Colorado on its own to the Big 12 won't cause the dominos to fall but the Big 12 is looking for another to add (likely from the PAC-X) and that will trickle down to the PAC raiding the MWC and/or AAC. It will eventually impact the FCS but as to whom in particular is anyone's guess. I hope it's NDSU among others.

[Reign of Terrier]

It is absolutely a financial risk but at this point, at least for NDSU, maintaining the status quo in the FCS presents risk as well.


I’ll just reference your opening line - how NDSU already outpaces the majority of G5 programs in ticket revenue and donor contributions.

Why? I have a hunch - because you built a winning, almost dominant, football program that wins national championships. That’s what builds a fan base. That’s why thousands flow to Frisco STILL. That’s why people donate. That’s why people around the country are familiar with NDSU football.

Now if you think that’s going to grow and continue because you enter the low end of FBS, I think that’s the flaw. There’s no logical landing spot and the impact on your other sports programs isn’t even considered.

Back to the subject thread, I don’t see any impact on FCS - at least none of any stature.


This might be hard to see from afar but NDSU football support is withering. Yes, it's still outstanding for this level and they're in no danger of going bankrupt anytime soon but they've reached their peak in the FCS and there's nowhere to go but down from here. Fewer season tickets are sold each year, fewer people go down to Frisco each year, and even the game at US Bank Stadium this year (home of the Minnesota Vikings) is not selling well compared to their game at Target Field (home of the Minnesota Twins) 4 years ago. That's the risk of staying in the FCS for NDSU - even national title contenders aren't able to maintain fan support.



This is something I've come around to in the last few years and it's been received as a hot take by the less literate on this website: and that's that the reason why we like sports is not because we want to win championships, but because the exhilarating rush of hope, opportunity, and just general "winning" really gets butts in seats, both figuratively and literally. If winning the national championship was the main pull of FCS or even FBS, it wouldn't explain why (on average) each FCS team gets 7,000 butts in seats every week (which is super high, considering the stakes). Because only a handful of FCS programs have won a national title.

Conference titles are a more plausible theory because it's more correlated with game-to-game success. I'm sure having a national championship worthy program year-in-and-year-out increases interest and helps a program pick up random fans who otherwise wouldn't care, but overall people care about the endorphin rush that comes with being competitive and entertaining every week, which is correlated with winning.

I bring that up because I think the issue for NDSU at the FCS level is not about finances, but because you really can't get that endorphin rush anymore. Your first title is special, you're 9th is expected. The reason why NDSU's interest is faltering isn't because NDSU fans are spoiled, but because it's objectively difficult to maintain interest and stakes, when you've had the level of success that they've had. It would take a very very long playoff drought for the Bison to really catch interest again.

Meanwhile, if you ask your average App/GSU fan how they feel about moving up, even with mixed success, they're glad they did. Because they're competent programs, and they're always the little guy, they're still constantly an opportunity to find that rush. They can't go back to FCS now.

Contrast that with programs who have moved up and then back down (Idaho, and arguably PC who went pioneer). The reason why they do this is because it's demoralizing to lose and be irrelevant and unentertaining and feel closed off (heck, I felt it with Wofford the last couple years).

"Chasing Hope" is probably the best argument for why NDSU will inevitably leave FCS

[ElCid]

This might be hard to see from afar but NDSU football support is withering. Yes, it's still outstanding for this level and they're in no danger of going bankrupt anytime soon but they've reached their peak in the FCS and there's nowhere to go but down from here. Fewer season tickets are sold each year, fewer people go down to Frisco each year, and even the game at US Bank Stadium this year (home of the Minnesota Vikings) is not selling well compared to their game at Target Field (home of the Minnesota Twins) 4 years ago. That's the risk of staying in the FCS for NDSU - even national title contenders aren't able to maintain fan support.

NDSU's admin faced the same critiques 20 years ago about not being able to afford D1 and not being able to support non-revenue sports in the Great West conference which was a group of new D1 misfits stretching from the Dakotas to Colorado to Utah to California. They handled it well due in no small part to a regional partner who made the move with them in SDSU. I do believe they'll need the same for a move to an FBS to be successful for the non-revenue sports. I believe NDSU would be FBS today if they had their way but the main hurdle continues to be geography and convincing an FBS conference (not named CUSA) to accept that.

Colorado on its own to the Big 12 won't cause the dominos to fall but the Big 12 is looking for another to add (likely from the PAC-X) and that will trickle down to the PAC raiding the MWC and/or AAC. It will eventually impact the FCS but as to whom in particular is anyone's guess. I hope it's NDSU among others.

It seems from your first paragraph that you believe in the grow or die theory. You can apply it any number of things. But I think that thinking is flawed. At least in this case. NDSU may be experiencing a drop off in fan support, but not for the reason you think. This is a society thing and nearly every school has felt it. NDSU is not special in this case. The perfect storm of, a drop in support for football, the internet, and the virus all intersecting have had a magnified affect on support. You can try to blame it on fans just being tired of winning, and that may play a tiny, probably anecdotal part, but the issue is much larger than NDSU's situation.

And then there is my own theory when it comes to fan involvement which I think contributed more to the items mentioned above. Whenever you break a routine like buying tickets and going to every game, you risk not starting up that routine again. I saw it big time when we tore down our home side and rebuilt it in the 00's. Despite having huge upgrades and it being a top rate stadium, we never got back the long time fans we lost during the construction period. Their routine had been broken. The virus interrupted everyone's routine. The key for AD's was to see this and try to minimize the effort to start that routine again. But with the economy/inflation a factor on the heels of the virus, it was a no brainer for people to think twice about expensive season tickets.

Well, that's my two cents.

[caribbeanhen]

It seems from your first paragraph that you believe in the grow or die theory. You can apply it any number of things. But I think that thinking is flawed. At least in this case. NDSU may be experiencing a drop off in fan support, but not for the reason you think. This is a society thing and nearly every school has felt it. NDSU is not special in this case. The perfect storm of, a drop in support for football, the internet, and the virus all intersecting have had a magnified affect on support. You can try to blame it on fans just being tired of winning, and that may play a tiny, probably anecdotal part, but the issue is much larger than NDSU's situation.

And then there is my own theory when it comes to fan involvement which I think contributed more to the items mentioned above. Whenever you break a routine like buying tickets and going to every game, you risk not starting up that routine again. I saw it big time when we tore down our home side and rebuilt it in the 00's. Despite having huge upgrades and it being a top rate stadium, we never got back the long time fans we lost during the construction period. Their routine had been broken. The virus interrupted everyone's routine. The key for AD's was to see this and try to minimize the effort to start that routine again. But with the economy/inflation a factor on the heels of the virus, it was a no brainer for people to think twice about expensive season tickets.

Well, that's my two cents.

and as general interest in college football is on the wane, particularly with the young, schools are pumping more and more money into football facilities … who is it all for anyway… for power and 💰

[Sitting Bull]

I found this poll on the UMass board pretty interesting, speaking of move-ups. While 57% vote FBS all the way - 38% are fine at some level with an FCS program.

Considering this is strictly from a UMass sports message board poll where only you’re most fanatic of supporters are voting, I found that pretty amazing, I would have to believe the broader alumni base would be more than fine with an FCS program.

UMass is into their second decade of FBS football. They have no conference, no rivals and attendance that as of last year hovers around 80% of what they were pulling in during the CAA days.

What is your preference for the UMass Football program


1A (FBS) big boy football only
35
57%
1A is preferred but I can support 1AA
13
21%
1AA is preferred but I can support 1A
4
7%
1AA (FCS) football only
6
10%
Even lower football (D2, D3)
1
2%
Can football completely, except for intramural flag football
2
3%

[Reign of Terrier]

Other trends contributing to declining attendance: Cable starting gutting in-person attendance and streaming is now killing cable.

My hypothesis is that the only programs and sports that don't have declining attendance have a really good product around them, which naturally will hurt mid-to-lower programs like FCS. Sandlapper Spike wrote a blog post about this, and nationally FCS teams on average have attendance that's 1,000 people less than it was a decade ago about (about 8500 to 7600).

We're also seeing (not to get too wonky) super star effects in sports: A handful of really good teams are dominating the revenue and success. Kinda like how google and facebook and other American companies that do really well by being very innovative in their technology use, so too are these football programs being innovative (whether it's compatible with the stated goal of college athletics is another thing all together).

At the FCS level, there's really only so much you can do in terms of investing into facilities before you see negative ROI or unsustainable investment relative to just going FBS. There's only so many facilities you can invest in, and if you start paying players even legally, the question becomes "why are we doing this just for an FCS championship when we could get same ROI form going FBS?"

When the dust settles, I think FCS football will be a better product than it was a generation or two ago, as players will have better facilities and amenities and at least minor NIL deals. But for now, I do think the top programs are starting to get close to hitting a wall on capital investment before that unsustainability/negative ROI question kicks in, and with the declining in-person revenue streams being another factor, it raises the question of what's going to give?

[ST_Lawson]

Other trends contributing to declining attendance: Cable starting gutting in-person attendance and streaming is now killing cable.

My hypothesis is that the only programs and sports that don't have declining attendance have a really good product around them, which naturally will hurt mid-to-lower programs like FCS. Sandlapper Spike wrote a blog post about this, and nationally FCS teams on average have attendance that's 1,000 people less than it was a decade ago about (about 8500 to 7600).

Before cable, to watch a football game, you had to physically go to it, or be content with a couple of games on broadcast TV.
When cable arrived, you could watch a number of games without leaving your house.
Streaming brought about the ability to watch pretty much any DI game (and many lower division) you wanted to from your couch. Why drive to the stadium to watch Western Illinois or Presbyterian when you can sit at home and watch Ohio State, LSU, K-State, and Oregon (for example)?

[Professor Chaos]

It seems from your first paragraph that you believe in the grow or die theory. You can apply it any number of things. But I think that thinking is flawed. At least in this case. NDSU may be experiencing a drop off in fan support, but not for the reason you think. This is a society thing and nearly every school has felt it. NDSU is not special in this case. The perfect storm of, a drop in support for football, the internet, and the virus all intersecting have had a magnified affect on support. You can try to blame it on fans just being tired of winning, and that may play a tiny, probably anecdotal part, but the issue is much larger than NDSU's situation.

And then there is my own theory when it comes to fan involvement which I think contributed more to the items mentioned above. Whenever you break a routine like buying tickets and going to every game, you risk not starting up that routine again. I saw it big time when we tore down our home side and rebuilt it in the 00's. Despite having huge upgrades and it being a top rate stadium, we never got back the long time fans we lost during the construction period. Their routine had been broken. The virus interrupted everyone's routine. The key for AD's was to see this and try to minimize the effort to start that routine again. But with the economy/inflation a factor on the heels of the virus, it was a no brainer for people to think twice about expensive season tickets.

Well, that's my two cents.
I can agree with your point about routines being broken causing fans to leave and not come back but that can be spun to provide more evidence that the status quo needs to be broke up. Particularly at NDSU ticket prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years as demand rose with the incredible level of success they enjoyed. Now, for reasons as you mentioned above, many are priced out or just not interested in paying more and more for the same product. It's impossible for NDSU to put a better product on the field as they have been at the FCS level so they only way to improve the product is to move up to a higher level of competition. Will that bring fans back? It's not a guarantee but I think it's far more likely than if they stay put in the FCS.

[caribbeanhen]

I can agree with your point about routines being broken causing fans to leave and not come back but that can be spun to provide more evidence that the status quo needs to be broke up. Particularly at NDSU ticket prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years as demand rose with the incredible level of success they enjoyed. Now, for reasons as you mentioned above, many are priced out or just not interested in paying more and more for the same product. It's impossible for NDSU to put a better product on the field as they have been at the FCS level so they only way to improve the product is to move up to a higher level of competition. Will that bring fans back? It's not a guarantee but I think it's far more likely than if they stay put in the FCS.

kind of like property taxes, when you’re assessed value goes up the Taxman is right on it, and when value goes down the ticket prices are locked in and very slow to follow

[SUPharmacist]

I can agree with your point about routines being broken causing fans to leave and not come back but that can be spun to provide more evidence that the status quo needs to be broke up. Particularly at NDSU ticket prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years as demand rose with the incredible level of success they enjoyed. Now, for reasons as you mentioned above, many are priced out or just not interested in paying more and more for the same product. It's impossible for NDSU to put a better product on the field as they have been at the FCS level so they only way to improve the product is to move up to a higher level of competition. Will that bring fans back? It's not a guarantee but I think it's far more likely than if they stay put in the FCS.

I will be curious to see what happens this year. Does losing the title to SDSU drive engagement or just lead to some fans checking out? I am afraid it will be the latter even though it has helped me realize that SDSU can be a hated rival as opposed to just a partner that helped us flip the bird to those assholes in Grand Forks and Vermillion.

I don't know if a move up would be good or bad in the long run, but I think it would buy a few more years of excitement. I will continue enjoying NDSU football regardless of what level. I am just worried the University is in a lose-lose scenario where any feasible FBS conference is a financial albatross in the long run and where staying put also hurts not just the football program but enrollment in general.

[Professor Chaos]

kind of like property taxes, when you’re assessed value goes up the Taxman is right on it, and when value goes down the ticket prices are locked in and very slow to follow
Bingo!


I will be curious to see what happens this year. Does losing the title to SDSU drive engagement or just lead to some fans checking out? I am afraid it will be the latter even though it has helped me realize that SDSU can be a hated rival as opposed to just a partner that helped us flip the bird to those assholes in Grand Forks and Vermillion.

I don't know if a move up would be good or bad in the long run, but I think it would buy a few more years of excitement. I will continue enjoying NDSU football regardless of what level. I am just worried the University is in a lose-lose scenario where any feasible FBS conference is a financial albatross in the long run and where staying put also hurts not just the football program but enrollment in general.
Agreed - I still love the FCS playoffs and I'd really miss them if NDSU moved FBS. On the flip side it's infuriating as a fan to see the program doing everything it can do at the level it's at and getting "rewarded" with less and less support every year. I have to imagine it's noticeable for the players and coaches even though they'd never say so publicly. It may be that complacency is hitting the NDSU football program but it hit the NDSU football fan base years ago and NDSU's admin is well aware of that so I'm sure FBS opportunities are very much on their radar.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I can agree with your point about routines being broken causing fans to leave and not come back but that can be spun to provide more evidence that the status quo needs to be broke up. Particularly at NDSU ticket prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years as demand rose with the incredible level of success they enjoyed. Now, for reasons as you mentioned above, many are priced out or just not interested in paying more and more for the same product. It's impossible for NDSU to put a better product on the field as they have been at the FCS level so they only way to improve the product is to move up to a higher level of competition. Will that bring fans back? It's not a guarantee but I think it's far more likely than if they stay put in the FCS.


IMO, a move to the FBS would reenergize the fanbase and bring them back. The FCS is now a purgatory for the elite FCS schools....and there are not many of them. I hope the Big 12 raids more of the Pac-12 and then they raid the MW so NDSU could possibly get an invite to the MW. Make the NDSU athletic department get out there and fund raise even more to make the move. As they say: Expect a lot, you get a lot.

[Sitting Bull]

Bingo!


Agreed - I still love the FCS playoffs and I'd really miss them if NDSU moved FBS. On the flip side it's infuriating as a fan to see the program doing everything it can do at the level it's at and getting "rewarded" with less and less support every year. I have to imagine it's noticeable for the players and coaches even though they'd never say so publicly. It may be that complacency is hitting the NDSU football program but it hit the NDSU football fan base years ago and NDSU's admin is well aware of that so I'm sure FBS opportunities are very much on their radar.

I don’t really have any issue personally on the Bison and if they wanted to explore G5. As I said before, go for it but I would bet your golden years would soon be behind you

I’m just always questioning whether this complacency among the fan base is real or just something thrown out there to justify a hard core fans position.

Is this really based on any objective facts? NDSU average attendance in 2022 was 17,300. How steep of a fall off - if any - is that? And if it is a decline in some trend, it’s obviously looks to be minor given your capacity.

And I’ve already mentioned that the complacency wasn’t visible in Frisco at h the last championship,

Just trying to see objectively if all this complacency is real or just an opinion. The facts just don’t seem to support it.

[Professor Chaos]

I don’t really have any issue personally on the Bison and if they wanted to explore G5. As I said before, go for it but I would bet your golden years would soon be behind you

I’m just always questioning whether this complacency among the fan base is real or just something thrown out there to justify a hard core fans position.

Is this really based on any objective facts? NDSU average attendance in 2022 was 17,300. How steep of a fall off - if any - is that? And if it is a decline in some trend, it’s obviously looks to be minor given your capacity.

And I’ve already mentioned that the complacency wasn’t visible in Frisco at h the last championship,

Just trying to see objectively if all this complacency is real or just an opinion. The facts just don’t seem to support it.
It's real - as someone who has been at nearly every NDSU home game for the last 15 years and been to Frisco every time the Bison have made it I can tell you that demand has slowed considerably at both. It's impossible to put numbers on it for Frisco since that's just guesses but the data for home attendance is pretty striking - I first started noticing it in the 2017 playoffs but here's the numbers.

Regular season home attendance average:
2016: 18,688
2017: 18,607
2018: 18,480
2019: 18,177
2021: 15,834
2022: 17,309 (this was helped by having home games against both UND and SDSU)

Playoff attendance average (3 home games - 2nd round, quarterfinal, and semifinal each year):
2016: 18,291
2017: 17,785
2018: 17,232
2019: 15,966
2021 (fall): 13,634
2022: 12,441 (awful weather for the semifinal also hurt this average)


Judging by season ticket sales and lack or marquee opponents the regular season average is likely to take a sharp dip this year from 2022. There used to a be a lengthy waiting list to purchase season tickets and now there at least several hundred on sale that they won't be able to sell prior to single game tickets going on sale on Tuesday.

[Reign of Terrier]

Before cable, to watch a football game, you had to physically go to it, or be content with a couple of games on broadcast TV.
When cable arrived, you could watch a number of games without leaving your house.
Streaming brought about the ability to watch pretty much any DI game (and many lower division) you wanted to from your couch. Why drive to the stadium to watch Western Illinois or Presbyterian when you can sit at home and watch Ohio State, LSU, K-State, and Oregon (for example)?

See, this is a great set up for someone like me. When I was less than a 2 hour drive away, it was no question that I'd be at a home football/basketball game or hit the road for an away game if it was close enough. Now, I live like 400-500 miles away and it's just not feasible and super duper expensive (both with time and money) to make a game anymore, so ESPN+ is clutch for me. I'd like to think streaming and stuff actually helps FCS fandom for those teams that have alumni not necessarily concentrated in the college town. Like, Wofford has always been roasted for our attendance, but the reality is we only have about 20k alumni, and they scattered all over the country. Many of them are in NC, SC, and GA, but also have lots of life obligations, so pilgrimage every Fall Saturday isn't feasible, but turning on ESPN+ on Saturdays is do-able.

I think lots more "casuals" are helped by ESPN+, but it definitely hurts gameday attendance. The folks like me who went to Wofford 20-30 years ago and moved to a big city in the mid-atlantic like DC had no hope of seeing Wofford games until the last 10 years or so, where before the games were carried exclusively on regional sports networks.


I can agree with your point about routines being broken causing fans to leave and not come back but that can be spun to provide more evidence that the status quo needs to be broke up. Particularly at NDSU ticket prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years as demand rose with the incredible level of success they enjoyed. Now, for reasons as you mentioned above, many are priced out or just not interested in paying more and more for the same product. It's impossible for NDSU to put a better product on the field as they have been at the FCS level so they only way to improve the product is to move up to a higher level of competition. Will that bring fans back? It's not a guarantee but I think it's far more likely than if they stay put in the FCS.


I don’t really have any issue personally on the Bison and if they wanted to explore G5. As I said before, go for it but I would bet your golden years would soon be behind you

I’m just always questioning whether this complacency among the fan base is real or just something thrown out there to justify a hard core fans position.

Is this really based on any objective facts? NDSU average attendance in 2022 was 17,300. How steep of a fall off - if any - is that? And if it is a decline in some trend, it’s obviously looks to be minor given your capacity.

And I’ve already mentioned that the complacency wasn’t visible in Frisco at h the last championship,

Just trying to see objectively if all this complacency is real or just an opinion. The facts just don’t seem to support it.

This is probably a thermonuclear take by me, and I know this solution is not simple as it's been talked about before, but I think one of the solutions for NDSU to reinvigorate the fan base isn't just a move up to FBS, but a new stadium. Obviously, the Fargodome is great, don't get me wrong, but I imagine one of the difficulties of selling out games like they used to isn't just boredom with the competition, but rising ticket prices. If NDSU as an administration is serious about growing the program, as we've already talked about here, they've already done pretty much everything to make the team elite, but the next step is to maintain interest and revenue and all that good stuff. I do think they've outgrown the dome, and for long-term FBS aspirations, that's probably going to have to be upgraded. Yes, it will be expensive, but (me, having no idea what NDSU is spending money on now, so i could be full of it!) I don't see a better investment than that.

[caribbeanhen]

Are the virtual streaming stats readily available for individual games on ESPN + and Flo ?

[Baron Sardonicus]

No effect on FCS.

Nebraska should now buy its soul back and rejoin the Big 12.

[clenz]

Are the virtual streaming stats readily available for individual games on ESPN + and Flo ?
To schools - not the public.

[caribbeanhen]

To schools - not the public.

thanks

They don’t have any problem taking the publics money, I assume the number of people that stream the games determines the cut the school gets from flow? Like a bonus

[ST_Lawson]

See, this is a great set up for someone like me. When I was less than a 2 hour drive away, it was no question that I'd be at a home football/basketball game or hit the road for an away game if it was close enough. Now, I live like 400-500 miles away and it's just not feasible and super duper expensive (both with time and money) to make a game anymore, so ESPN+ is clutch for me. I'd like to think streaming and stuff actually helps FCS fandom for those teams that have alumni not necessarily concentrated in the college town. Like, Wofford has always been roasted for our attendance, but the reality is we only have about 20k alumni, and they scattered all over the country. Many of them are in NC, SC, and GA, but also have lots of life obligations, so pilgrimage every Fall Saturday isn't feasible, but turning on ESPN+ on Saturdays is do-able.

I think lots more "casuals" are helped by ESPN+, but it definitely hurts gameday attendance. The folks like me who went to Wofford 20-30 years ago and moved to a big city in the mid-atlantic like DC had no hope of seeing Wofford games until the last 10 years or so, where before the games were carried exclusively on regional sports networks.

With Western Illinois, we're in a similar boat. Once people get their degrees, the vast majority of them head to Chicago, St. Louis, or one of the smaller cities (that are all still 90+ minutes away from Macomb), so any who aren't "die hards" won't make the trip most of the time (maybe for Homecoming, but that's about it).

The bigger issue for us though is that, for the most part, students don't go to our games. If they're football fans, they'll just hang out in their dorms/apartments and watch a Big 10 or SEC game. Looking at attendance and enrollment, from the early '70s (when we were setting most of our attendance records, averaging 13k+ per game) through to the early '00s (still had very good attendance...years of 12k+ average), our average attendance was still pretty close to our overall enrollment. Half the stadium would be students back then. In most of the '00s, our average attendance was around 75%-95% of our enrollment, but the last decade, it's pretty much been 35%-50%. I'm sure some of that can be attributed to lack of success on the field, but we've had other time periods of more L's than W's and attendance never took that big of a drop before.

On the other hand, until ESPN+ came along, you had zero options to watch WIU games on any TV service. If you were close enough, you could listen on the radio, or once audio streaming became a thing, stream the radio broadcast online, but there was no option to watch locally or remotely. ESPN+ does make it easier for people who wouldn't have gone to the game anyway to watch the game, but it doesn't seem like that makes up for the missing 5k-10k people in the stands.

[FUBeAR]

Prolly needs a new thread … but rumors today have Clemson, FSU and/or Miami, Washington, and Oregon…and possibly Notre Dame joining the B1G this week.

For you prognosticators and speculators, think that kind of FBS movement can impact FCS?

FUBeAR sees Furman and Mercer moving to the ACC in 2024.

(JK - won’t happen, of course…and FUBeAR would have to no longer be a fan of either of it did)

[DFW HOYA]

This is probably a thermonuclear take by me, and I know this solution is not simple as it's been talked about before, but I think one of the solutions for NDSU to reinvigorate the fan base isn't just a move up to FBS, but a new stadium. Obviously, the Fargodome is great, don't get me wrong, but I imagine one of the difficulties of selling out games like they used to isn't just boredom with the competition, but rising ticket prices. If NDSU as an administration is serious about growing the program, as we've already talked about here, they've already done pretty much everything to make the team elite, but the next step is to maintain interest and revenue and all that good stuff. I do think they've outgrown the dome, and for long-term FBS aspirations, that's probably going to have to be upgraded. Yes, it will be expensive, but (me, having no idea what NDSU is spending money on now, so i could be full of it!) I don't see a better investment than that.

A smart move if NDSU has any aspirations beyond Frisco. 18,700 seats is not appealing to other FBS schools or conferences (imagine playing, say, Wyoming and having no tickets for them) and the infrastructure isn't getting any younger. The enrollment issues appear to be a more present danger but the school should at least be examining a feasibility study to see the cost and utility of a 30,000-35,000 seat stadium, whether indoor or outdoor.

[Sitting Bull]

Maybe they could just move all their games to Minneapolis in the successful model UMass used to move all their games to Boston.

[Reign of Terrier]

With Western Illinois, we're in a similar boat. Once people get their degrees, the vast majority of them head to Chicago, St. Louis, or one of the smaller cities (that are all still 90+ minutes away from Macomb), so any who aren't "die hards" won't make the trip most of the time (maybe for Homecoming, but that's about it).

The bigger issue for us though is that, for the most part, students don't go to our games. If they're football fans, they'll just hang out in their dorms/apartments and watch a Big 10 or SEC game. Looking at attendance and enrollment, from the early '70s (when we were setting most of our attendance records, averaging 13k+ per game) through to the early '00s (still had very good attendance...years of 12k+ average), our average attendance was still pretty close to our overall enrollment. Half the stadium would be students back then. In most of the '00s, our average attendance was around 75%-95% of our enrollment, but the last decade, it's pretty much been 35%-50%. I'm sure some of that can be attributed to lack of success on the field, but we've had other time periods of more L's than W's and attendance never took that big of a drop before.

On the other hand, until ESPN+ came along, you had zero options to watch WIU games on any TV service. If you were close enough, you could listen on the radio, or once audio streaming became a thing, stream the radio broadcast online, but there was no option to watch locally or remotely. ESPN+ does make it easier for people who wouldn't have gone to the game anyway to watch the game, but it doesn't seem like that makes up for the missing 5k-10k people in the stands.

For your first paragraph, I think we're seeing this trend in the midwest and northeast, while population migration patters favor the west and the southeast. So that really sheltered southern FCS schools. As for your second paragraph, I think that's a lot more common than you think. This was a culture shock when I got to Wofford and realized not only did people feel meh about Wofford football (which was good heading into my freshman year), they're also meh about football in general. Remember: only about 40% of the country actually goes to college, and the 35% or so that get through it are not necessarily the types who love sports, let alone their school's sports.

I think ESPN+ actually helps the general game of FCS football because it allows for more causal viewers/supporters to be more engaged. We're basically not going to solve the attendance issue because the attendance issue is wrapped up in a relevancy issue and a "macro-migration" issue that's just not going to go away




(JK - won’t happen, of course…and FUBeAR would have to no longer be a fan of either of it did)

Sir, you don't have to come on this site and liexlolx


A smart move if NDSU has any aspirations beyond Frisco. 18,700 seats is not appealing to other FBS schools or conferences (imagine playing, say, Wyoming and having no tickets for them) and the infrastructure isn't getting any younger. The enrollment issues appear to be a more present danger but the school should at least be examining a feasibility study to see the cost and utility of a 30,000-35,000 seat stadium, whether indoor or outdoor.

My other nuclear hot take is that as bad as the weather gets in Fargo an outdoor stadium wouldn't be bad *if they played at FBS.* The weather only starts getting crazy cold on average in November or December. An outdoor stadium wouldn't be great for hosting a conference championship game, but realistically you could game the schedule to only have one truly bad weather game a year. Because otherwise, you're not really playing in December at home (unless it's a conference championship game), and a bowl game would be somewhere sunny.

Of course I say all of this having never taken a step in Fargo, so take with a huge grain of salt:D

[taper]

A smart move if NDSU has any aspirations beyond Frisco. 18,700 seats is not appealing to other FBS schools or conferences (imagine playing, say, Wyoming and having no tickets for them) and the infrastructure isn't getting any younger. The enrollment issues appear to be a more present danger but the school should at least be examining a feasibility study to see the cost and utility of a 30,000-35,000 seat stadium, whether indoor or outdoor.
Hawaii is building a 35k seat for $400M(and climbing). USF is planning a 35k for $340M. That kind of money doesn't exist for NDSU football so a feasibility study is just a waste of money. What the Fargodome needs is a concourse remodel. A really nice looking expansion project was just waiting for formal signoff but then covid hit and everything restarted. That project is coming up in council meetings again so I think we'll get it within a few years.

[caribbeanhen]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by FUBeAR https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3133124#post3133124)

(JK - won’t happen, of course…and FUBeAR would have to no longer be a fan of either of it did)



Sir, you don't have to come on this site and liexlolx


too funny

[FUBeAR]

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by FUBeAR https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=3133124#post3133124)

(JK - won’t happen, of course…and FUBeAR would have to no longer be a fan of either of it did)



Sir, you don't have to come on this site and liexlolx


too funny y’all haven’t been paying attention.

FCS College Football is hanging on by a thread in FUBeAR’s realms of interest.

Hockey deserted ATL; NBA is horrendous; NFL holds little interest - will watch a little Falcons, but barely; love the Braves, but can’t forgive MLB for All-Star game BS; no interest in G5 Football; slight interest in SEC as he admires some of the Players’ talent and some of Coaches’ abilities. FUBeAR pays little to no attention to any other P5 Conferences/Teams.

If FUBeAR begins to see FCS Football how he sees P5 and/or G5, he’s out. It’s that simple. Thus, if Furman and/or Mercer went P5 ACC, FUBeAR would wish them well and see if he can enjoy following some D3 Football.

[ElCid]

This was a culture shock when I got to Wofford and realized not only did people feel meh about Wofford football (which was good heading into my freshman year), they're also meh about football in general. Remember: only about 40% of the country actually goes to college, and the 35% or so that get through it are not necessarily the types who love sports, let alone their school's sports.


There is a lot going on. Your numbers might be accurate, but not that relevant according to history. While more people go to college now than 50 years, sports attendance/interest has dropped. From my view, football used to be just an "event" at many places. At some big FBS venues, and a few FCS, it still is. I'm not sure most people (especially students) that go to the schools with huge draws ever gave a crap about "football." They are there for the "event." It's why we probably had the highest attendance of anyone relative to our alumni size over the years. And even we have taken a hit. It's why people actually used to dress nicely for games and created huge tailgating productions. 40 years ago if you were in Charleston on a Saturday, you were at the The Citadel game. We would even have a bunch of CoC girls show up. Now, not so much.

As society now has many more activities diverting people, not to mention the internet, the big game on Saturday is not as exciting to people as it used to be, especially college kids. The die hards still indulge, but the casual fans are losing interest or being distracted. I'm not convinced that internet access actually helps build interest. Maybe, but it's mostly an excuse for people to avoid a 5 hour trip each way (my hand is raised). Not sure you will get many people interested who would not be otherwise.

[caribbeanhen]

y’all haven’t been paying attention.

FCS College Football is hanging on by a thread in FUBeAR’s realms of interest.

Hockey deserted ATL; NBA is horrendous; NFL holds little interest - will watch a little Falcons, but barely; love the Braves, but can’t forgive MLB for All-Star game BS; no interest in G5 Football; slight interest in SEC as he admires some of the Players’ talent and some of Coaches’ abilities. FUBeAR pays little to no attention to any other P5 Conferences/Teams.

If FUBeAR begins to see FCS Football how he sees P5 and/or G5, he’s out. It’s that simple. Thus, if Furman and/or Mercer went P5 ACC, FUBeAR would wish them well and see if he can enjoy following some D3 Football.

always girl watching

[JacksFan40]

Hawaii is building a 35k seat for $400M(and climbing). USF is planning a 35k for $340M. That kind of money doesn't exist for NDSU football so a feasibility study is just a waste of money. What the Fargodome needs is a concourse remodel. A really nice looking expansion project was just waiting for formal signoff but then covid hit and everything restarted. That project is coming up in council meetings again so I think we'll get it within a few years.
I’d imagine the cost for Hawaii has more to do with getting supplies to the island, something NDSU would not have to deal with. DJD is a 19,000 seat stadium and cost us roughly $65 million. I’d imagine at worst NDSU would be dealing with somewhere in the $200 million range.

[clenz]

I’d imagine the cost for Hawaii has more to do with getting supplies to the island, something NDSU would not have to deal with. DJD is a 19,000 seat stadium and cost us roughly $65 million. I’d imagine at worst NDSU would be dealing with somewhere in the $200 million range.
San Diego State just opened a new one last August - 34k seats for football - 350 million
South Florida's new stadium - 35k seats 340m
UAB 2021 - 47k 200m4
Colorado State 2020 - 36k 220m (263 in 2022 dollars...40m jump in just 2 years)

Let's look at some other stadiums that size
Citypark for St Louis City SC of MLS. Opened this year 22.5k capacity 457.8m
Geodis Park of Nashville SC in 2022 30k capacity 275m
Lower.com Feld of Columbus Crew 2021 20k capacity 315m
Q2 Stadium of Austin FC 20k capacity 2021 260m
TQL Stadium of Cincinatti FC 2021 250m
Allianz Stadium of Minnesota United 19k capacity 2019 215m

Cost of new stadiums at this point is 200m minimum if you go cheap on everything for a modern stadium.

[nodak651]

Any NDSU fans think that Dom, Kolpack, and McFeely constantly trashing the FCS and advocating for an FBS move has had an affect the moral of the fanbase? They are on the radio or are in print every day and they constantly talk about it. Has to put a damper on fan enthusiasm to some degree... back when NDSU won their first D1 championship, UND hockey fans and NDSU football fans would go back and forth calling the primary sport of the other school small time or JV or niche, etc. NDSU's local media guys that have the rights to NDSU games are basically making the same argument UND hockey-only fans used to make. Basically they belittle any success NDSU will have moving forward, as long as they are FCS. How does that help to create excitement within the fanbase or with the casual Fargo sports fan? I just don't get it, especially because if NDSU does actually go FBS, WDAY can probably kiss goodbye the rights to air pretty much any NDSU FBS FB games.

[Reign of Terrier]

San Diego State just opened a new one last August - 34k seats for football - 350 million
South Florida's new stadium - 35k seats 340m
UAB 2021 - 47k 200m4
Colorado State 2020 - 36k 220m (263 in 2022 dollars...40m jump in just 2 years)

Let's look at some other stadiums that size
Citypark for St Louis City SC of MLS. Opened this year 22.5k capacity 457.8m
Geodis Park of Nashville SC in 2022 30k capacity 275m
Lower.com Feld of Columbus Crew 2021 20k capacity 315m
Q2 Stadium of Austin FC 20k capacity 2021 260m
TQL Stadium of Cincinatti FC 2021 250m
Allianz Stadium of Minnesota United 19k capacity 2019 215m

Cost of new stadiums at this point is 200m minimum if you go cheap on everything for a modern stadium.

I think the biggest thing with regard to stadium costs is real estate, which I don't think would be too expensive in ND. Just going off memory, the MLS stadiums have a business model of being embedded in an urban cores and or creating their own new district, which may explain why it was so cheap - the one that really surprised me on this list was St. Louis. If I'm remembering correctly, the Minnesota stadium is built not closed to much of anything. On top of that, the soccer stadiums are a little different from other stadiums because they have lining/roof above them. For perspective, Audi field in DC is on probably the most expensive real estate of the MLS and their stadium cost somewhere between 400 and 500m. And it only seats 18k and doesn't have a full roof.

All of this is a little bit of a red herring though. We online commentors gawk at these big numbers, but we forgot when programs produce them, like recently when NDSU dished out over $50m just for an indoor practice facility that won't bring any revenue. I for one don't think a new stadium would bankrupt NDSU or make them a poverty program. Administrators, college presidents, and committees get paid lots of money to figure out how to make these things feasible.

[taper]

I think the biggest thing with regard to stadium costs is real estate, which I don't think would be too expensive in ND. Just going off memory, the MLS stadiums have a business model of being embedded in an urban cores and or creating their own new district, which may explain why it was so cheap - the one that really surprised me on this list was St. Louis. If I'm remembering correctly, the Minnesota stadium is built not closed to much of anything. On top of that, the soccer stadiums are a little different from other stadiums because they have lining/roof above them. For perspective, Audi field in DC is on probably the most expensive real estate of the MLS and their stadium cost somewhere between 400 and 500m. And it only seats 18k and doesn't have a full roof.

All of this is a little bit of a red herring though. We online commentors gawk at these big numbers, but we forgot when programs produce them, like recently when NDSU dished out over $50m just for an indoor practice facility that won't bring any revenue. I for one don't think a new stadium would bankrupt NDSU or make them a poverty program. Administrators, college presidents, and committees get paid lots of money to figure out how to make these things feasible.
I think it's important to note that NDSU didn't spend a single cent on the IPF. It was 100% private donation that took many years and was capped by a one-off $15M check. ND state law doesn't allow universities to take out loans so all our projects are either privately or gov't funded. The Fargodome is owned and operated by the city of Fargo.

[Sader87]

I think Holy Cross may finally go Big East because of this.......xdrunkyx

[Go...gate]

I think Holy Cross may finally go Big East because of this.......xdrunkyx

And Rutgers will end up in the Patriot League, where it has always belonged. xnodx