The Latest Patriot League Expansion Thread

[Go...gate]

We discuss this from time to time but have not in a while.

When I have Googled this issue in recent years, there has some been discussion about William and Mary coming over for all sports. The reasons discussed for doing this, for the most part, (1) better academic compatibility and (2) a better opportunity to put their basketball programs(s) in the NCAA tournament from time to time.

Not seen on Google but another school that comes to my mind at least, especially from a geographic standpoint, is Wagner as an Associate Member for football.

Any thoughts on this?

[UNHWildcat18]

The PL has been unwilling to add any potential associate football members that are in the geographical footprint. I don't see it changing.....

[aceinthehole]

We discuss this from time to time but have not in a while.

When I have Googled this issue in recent years, there has some been discussion about William and Mary coming over for all sports. The reasons discussed for doing this, for the most part, (1) better academic compatibility and (2) a better opportunity to put their basketball programs(s) in the NCAA tournament from time to time.

Not seen on Google but another school that comes to my mind at least, especially from a geographic standpoint, is Wagner as an Associate Member for football.

Any thoughts on this?


I absolutely think Wagner would be interested in joining, if the Patriot League was actually interested in extending full membership. However, there are many reasons why this is an improbable scenario:

1) I highly doubt the PL presidents have targeted Wagner for a full evaluation and consideration for membership. While Wagner does have "solid" academics, it does not have the metrics (enrollment criteria, acceptance rates, etc.) that would be close enough to the PL standards.

2) Wagner has a great campus and its location in NYC would certainly be a positive for PL membership, I'm not sure it has the athletic facilities that are up to par for the league liking.

3) I don't see a majority of existing PL members clamoring to invite or be associated with Wagner. They just don't compare closely with the most recent additions (BU and Loyola).

4) While Wagner may see a lot of upside to the Patriot League, they simply could not afford it even if asked. They would have the smallest enrollment by far (just 1,750 undergrads), the smallest athletic budget, and their endowment is about $85M (Loyola has the PL smallest endowment at $300+M).

Wagner just don't have the academics or financial resources to join with the rest of the Patriot. If the PL was willing to "compromise" on academics, Marist may have a better ability to fund a Patriot League athletic program.


---

As for Associate membership in Patriot League Football, I guess that is slightly more likely if it was part of a larger deal to move Wagner athletic program from the NEC to the MAAC. However, I'm still not sure that they could swing that kind of investment and commitment for football.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL has been unwilling to add any potential associate football members that are in the geographical footprint. I don't see it changing.....

If the PL had to do it over all again, Towson and Georgetown would not have been invited.

[Go...gate]

If the PL had to do it over all again, Towson and Georgetown would not have been invited.

We had to invite Towson because it appeared Fordham would bolt for football. My understanding is that Towson made friends during its affiliation.

Not sure why you believe we shouldn't have invited Georgetown.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If the PL had to do it over all again, Towson and Georgetown would not have been invited.

Why not Towson? Lehigh, Lafayette, and Bucknell were East Coast Conference members with the Tigers just a few years prior to Towson joining the PL as an associate football member. Clearly, these three schools had no issue keeping company with Towson under those athletic parameters. Heck, one of Lehigh's more memorable athletic moments occurred against Towson in the 1987-88 ECC Men's Hoops Final.

Towson could have (should have?) opened the door for one or two more regionally respected public institutions to be part of the PL as it transitioned into the "playoff era" (1997 onward) but instead nothing materialized of substance. Granted, I do think the associate football membership raised Towson's academic profile "modestly" relative to its already improving perception during the 1990s. Plus, Towson was a competitive foe during their stay in the league.

The PL had a chance to wrestle away Northeast 1-AA/FCS football supremacy from the A10/CAA in the early 2000s but didn't capitalize on the opportunity. Saying no to Georgetown, keeping Towson, adding Delaware, Villanova and perhaps either W&M and or UNH would have been a home run for the league and brought about some much needed "healthy humbleness".

[Go...gate]

Getting W & M would certainly be a step in the right direction.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure why you believe we shouldn't have invited Georgetown.

Three issues would likely have come up:

1. Facilities (Kehoe Field) were not up to league standards.

2. In 2000, the school had only one full time assistant football coach.

3. The school's program budget could not commit to a rapid ramp-up of equivalencies per what the other schools offered. Per the Washington Post: "Georgetown's athletic department will put $50,000 toward preferential packaging for the 2001 season and will increase that funding by $50,000 per year until it reaches $200,000 per year [by 2004]." At the time, $200K was just under four equivalencies.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Why not Towson? Lehigh, Lafayette, and Bucknell were East Coast Conference members with the Tigers just a few years prior to Towson joining the PL as an associate football member. Clearly, these three schools had no issue keeping company with Towson under those athletic parameters. Heck, one of Lehigh's more memorable athletic moments occurred against Towson in the 1987-88 ECC Men's Hoops Final.

Towson could have (should have?) opened the door for one or two more regionally respected public institutions to be part of the PL as it transitioned into the "playoff era" (1997 onward) but instead nothing materialized of substance. Granted, I do think the associate football membership raised Towson's academic profile "modestly" relative to its already improving perception during the 1990s. Plus, Towson was a competitive foe during their stay in the league.

The PL had a chance to wrestle away Northeast 1-AA/FCS football supremacy from the A10/CAA in the early 2000s but didn't capitalize on the opportunity. Saying no to Georgetown, keeping Towson, adding Delaware, Villanova and perhaps either W&M and or UNH would have been a home run for the league and brought about some much needed "healthy humbleness".

Except none of those things were ever going to happen.

Towson was a football affiliate in the late 1990's through 2002 when they were members of the America East Conference. In 2002, the CAA added Towson, Delaware, Hofstra, Northeastern and Drexel for all sports, raiding the A-East. Towson was never going to join the CAA but stay in the PL for football.

No serious discussion has ever taken place, outside of a message board, regarding Villanova and W&M leaving the CAA to join the PL ('Nova as a football affiliate of course). Andy Talley never would've let that move happen. The PL lost charter member W&M before it even played a league game due to a combination of lack of scholarships, postseason ban and the fear that they would lose out on rivalry games with Richmond and VMI because of the Ivy scheduling piece. And, under Jimmye Laycock, the Tribe went on to have one of their best ever football runs following the decision not to join the PL, and enter the Yankee Conference instead for football.

Delaware -- if they were to leave the CAA to go anywhere, it would've been / will be to I-A / FBS, not to the PL.

There was a brief moment in 2010 where there was talk that UNH and Maine might join the Patriot League as football affiliates. This was right around the time that URI was slated to leave the CAA for the NEC in football and Northeastern and Hofstra had just dropped the sport. As a result, UNH and Maine were looking like they'd be on a geographic island, where Villanova would've been the next closest league opponent. However, in a span of months, URI reneged on their decision to downgrade to the NEC and Albany and Stony Book were added as football members.

[crusader11]

Wagner? WAGNER???? Come on, guys.

[Tribe4SF]

Getting W & M would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Not happening. Southern expansion of the CAA has made it even less likely than it was. Football has 7 schools within a four-hour drive and Nova and Monmouth at five hours. Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette are brutal drives from Williamsburg. I made the trip to Colgate in 2021 and have no desire to return. Expensive with flight and stay in Syracuse and rental for long game day drive to Hamilton where we nearly outnumbered Colgate fans. These considerations beyond historic objections of competitive level, scholarship limit, AI, and no redshirts.

[Sitting Bull]

There is tremendous respect at W&M I think for the PL and it has been thrown about a few times as a potential home if the CAA ever dissolved.

The more recent- last 10 years - moves by the CAA adding Stony Brook, Elon, Charleston, Hampton among others - have eliminated however any fear of a collapsing CAA. To the contrary, the adds have strengthened and secured the league in various ways - travel, quality and academics among them.

One of the arguments for the PL were academically related - the CAA though now has 6 members that are ranked among/near the nations top 100 Universities - W&M, Northeastern, Delaware, Elon, Stony Brook and Drexel. I’m not sure there is a mid major conference outside the Ivy League that can match that. If the PL can, then at best the academic argument is really now a wash.

Beyond the academics, the other aspects of the CAA are just a much better fit for W&M.

[Tribe4SF]

There is tremendous respect at W&M I think for the PL and it has been thrown about a few times as a potential home if the CAA ever dissolved.

The more recent- last 10 years - moves by the CAA adding Stony Brook, Elon, Charleston, Hampton among others - have eliminated however any fear of a collapsing CAA. To the contrary, the adds have strengthened and secured the league in various ways - travel, quality and academics among them.

One of the arguments for the PL were academically related - the CAA though now has 6 members that are ranked among/near the nations top 100 Universities - W&M, Northeastern, Delaware, Elon, Stony Brook and Drexel. I’m not sure there is a mid major conference outside the Ivy League that can match that. If the PL can, then at best the academic argument is really now a wash.

Beyond the academics, the other aspects of the CAA are just a much better fit for W&M.

Academic arguments have been at the center of the discussion for the few W&M folks who'd like to see us in the PL. I've never understood why those arguments held any sway at all. We're not talking about competing in the College Bowl, we're talking about athletics! Beyond undergraduate selectivity we really don't have much in common with Patriot schools anyway.

[DFW HOYA]

One of the arguments for the PL were academically related - the CAA though now has 6 members that are ranked among/near the nations top 100 Universities - W&M, Northeastern, Delaware, Elon, Stony Brook and Drexel. I’m not sure there is a mid major conference outside the Ivy League that can match that. If the PL can, then at best the academic argument is really now a wash.

CAA Top 100 Universities (per USN&WR):
41. William & Mary
44. Northeastern (dropped football)
77. Stony Brook
89. Elon
89. Delaware

PL Top 100 Universities (per USN&WR):
41. Boston U (dropped football)
51. Lehigh
72. American (no football)

PL Top 100 Liberal Arts Colleges (per USN&WR):
6. Navy
9. Army
18. Colgate
33. Holy Cross
37. Bucknell
39. Lafayette

The Patriot League is a better institutional fit for liberal arts colleges to which W&M, Delaware, etc. are not. Could it have been more attractive to mid-Atlantic schools? Sure, but the leadership at its founding was less interested in comparative excellence in football than trying to look good for the Ivies.

[Son of Eli]

CAA Top 100 Universities (per USN&WR):
41. William & Mary
44. Northeastern (dropped football)
77. Stony Brook
89. Elon
89. Delaware

PL Top 100 Universities (per USN&WR):
41. Boston U (dropped football)
51. Lehigh
72. American (no football)

PL Top 100 Liberal Arts Colleges (per USN&WR):
6. Navy
9. Army
18. Colgate
33. Holy Cross
37. Bucknell
39. Lafayette

The Patriot League is a better institutional fit for liberal arts colleges to which W&M, Delaware, etc. are not. Could it have been more attractive to mid-Atlantic schools? Sure, but the leadership at its founding was less interested in comparative excellence in football than trying to look good for the Ivies.


Georgetown is not ranked in the top 100 academically? If true I’m shocked.

[Son of Eli]

I guess you’re not counting them because they are football only members.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown is not ranked in the top 100 academically? If true I’m shocked.

It's #23, but since it's an affiliate membership like Fordham (#72) I did not include it.

[RichH2]

Ah well,what's a summer without an expansion thread? 🤣😂
Last I heard ,PL is interested in expansion but only for a full member.. Wagner is not a viable option. Monmouth is but does it have any interest in the PL. It did some years back but it would appear unlikely.
Unless and until PL addresses football by laws expansion is merely a dream.

[Go...gate]

Another school discussed is Howard. Seems to me that they would be a solid addition.

Regarding Villanova, let's not forget that Talley is long gone.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Another school discussed is Howard. Seems to me that they would be a solid addition.

Regarding Villanova, let's not forget that Talley is long gone.

I still think that the very proud Wildcat football alumni network would mutiny at the idea of VU moving to the Patriot League. Same thing happened at Richmond in 2003 and 2004 when there were talks of downgrading football to the Patriot or Pioneer level. Large contingent of alum threatened to stop donating. And the idea of replacing Delaware with Georgetown as Nova's football rival is a total non-starter right now.

I'd be in on Howard. Issue from what someone told me since I'm not a big academic statistics guy, is that the AI would be very difficult for them. In other words, there's currently a sizeable gap in average test scores between the aggregate student body and aggregate student athletes. Or so it was explained to me. While Howard overall isn't as selective as a Holy Cross or Fordham, it's high end of the SAT range is right there because the school does attract some very strong students given its cache as the premier HBCU.

Supposedly, the CAA was in real talks with Howard during last round of expansion but Howard only was willing to accept an offer if the CAA also invited Morgan State, which was a hard no.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Ah well,what's a summer without an expansion thread? 藍
Last I heard ,PL is interested in expansion but only for a full member.. Wagner is not a viable option. Monmouth is but does it have any interest in the PL. It did some years back but it would appear unlikely.
Unless and until PL addresses football by laws expansion is merely a dream.

Monmouth wanted into the PL in 2012 or 2013 and weren't given the time of day. They subsequently left the NEC for the MAAC, bringing football with them the the Big South. The academic old-guard PL has no interest in schools that are "up and coming" academically and/or athletically like Monmouth, Bryant, Sacred Heart or Merrimack. Even if they'd make the athletic conference stronger. The PL wants nothing to do with schools that are upwardly mobile, that would join for 5-6 years and then look to go on to CAA or elsewhere.

This thread is honestly a total waste of time as the Patriot League isn't going to expand unless it's forced in order to stay at a minimum number. We have 10 all-sports members who aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If any of the 5 all-sports members with football left, that would force the league to find another all-sports member with football. According to league by-laws, the PL will cease to sponsor football without 5 full-time members playing the sport, which is where we're at now. If either Georgetown or Fordham left the football conference, we'd still be at the minimum 6 -- if BOTH left, we'd have to find a football affiliate to keep AQ.

The best candidates to join the PL are schools that are currently DIII and would have to be interested in making a St. Thomas-esque jump. Two schools that would make sense in that regard are Johns Hopkins and RIT. Union or RPI would be the next two, or Trinity College in Hartford perhaps. Hobart was an affiliate in LAX during the early 2000's. Some have mentioned U. of Scranton but I personally think if that school wanted to go DI, the MAAC would be more of a fit.

[LUHawker]

e
Two schools that would make sense in that regard are Johns Hopkins and RIT. Union or RPI would be the next two, or Trinity College in Hartford perhaps. Hobart was an affiliate in LAX during the early 2000's. Some have mentioned U. of Scranton but I personally think if that school wanted to go DI, the MAAC would be more of a fit.

I think RPI would be a perfect fit. Ir rounds out the geographic footprint. Similar academics, similar enrollment. Stadium is nice, if a little small, but they'd bring a lot to the table.

[NY Crusader 2010]

e

I think RPI would be a perfect fit. Ir rounds out the geographic footprint. Similar academics, similar enrollment. Stadium is nice, if a little small, but they'd bring a lot to the table.

Not bad at all, I agree. Would be the third DI hoops program in the Capital District, after Siena and Albany -- and 2nd FCS program in the region. It's already one of the 2 DI hockey programs in the area along with Union.

RIT is interesting too, because the City of Rochester currently lacks DI college athletics save for RIT hockey. The downer is they don't have football.

[LUHawker]

Not bad at all, I agree. Would be the third DI hoops program in the Capital District, after Siena and Albany -- and 2nd FCS program in the region. It's already one of the 2 DI hockey programs in the area along with Union.

RIT is interesting too, because the City of Rochester currently lacks DI college athletics save for RIT hockey. The downer is they don't have football.

RPI has a nice set-up and seats 5,200. Not sure if it has room to expand, but I'm sure they could figure something out. Nice pics here: https://rpiathletics.com/sports/2010/5/21/GEN_0521100834.aspx?id=2768

[NY Crusader 2010]

RPI has a nice set-up and seats 5,200. Not sure if it has room to expand, but I'm sure they could figure something out. Nice pics here: https://rpiathletics.com/sports/2010/5/21/GEN_0521100834.aspx?id=2768

We're talking about the Patriot League. No "need" to expand.

Same would go for their basketball gym as long as it holds at least 750 people.

[DFW HOYA]

We're talking about the Patriot League. No "need" to expand.


The PL will be oblivious to all this until Georgetown and Fordham turn in their notice, or the CAA gives Holy Cross an offer it cannot refuse.

[RichH2]

We're talking about the Patriot League. No "need" to expand.

Same would go for their basketball gym as long as it holds at least 750 people.

+1

[Go...gate]

The PL will be oblivious to all this until Georgetown and Fordham turn in their notice, or the CAA gives Holy Cross an offer it cannot refuse.

This is the nightmare scenario which I envision, if not outright predict.

[aceinthehole]

The PL will be oblivious to all this until Georgetown and Fordham turn in their notice, or the CAA gives Holy Cross an offer it cannot refuse.

Realistically, where are GU and FU going?

Nowhere. The CAA doesn't need/want them and neither is interested in leaving for the NEC.

Sure, I guess the CAA might consider HC as the 16 member to balance out any North/South travel issues, but that still very unlikely.

The PL situation is actually very stable.

[DFW HOYA]

Realistically, where are GU and FU going?
Nowhere. The CAA doesn't need/want them and neither is interested in leaving for the NEC.
Sure, I guess the CAA might consider HC as the 16 member to balance out any North/South travel issues, but that still very unlikely.
The PL situation is actually very stable.

Georgetown's status in the Patriot League is increasingly becoming untenable. It has a total of 24 wins against the current PL teams in the last 22 years: 15 vs. Bucknell and Lafayette, and just 9-73 versus everyone else. Is this improving anytime soon?

Absent bylaws reform which the PL is unable or unwilling to entertain, Georgetown must examine the need for a strategic plan which would allow it to sign athletes without tying an offer of admission to a league imposed GPA or SAT range and to actually compete among schools in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region, as it does for 29 of its other 30 teams.

Coach Sgarlata firmly believes in a future with the PL but the next coach might not be so committed.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown's status in the Patriot League is increasingly becoming untenable. It has a total of 24 wins against the current PL teams in the last 22 years: 15 vs. Bucknell and Lafayette, and just 9-73 versus everyone else. Is this improving anytime soon?

Absent bylaws reform which the PL is unable or unwilling to entertain, Georgetown must examine the need for a strategic plan which would allow it to sign athletes without tying an offer of admission to a league imposed GPA or SAT range and to actually compete among schools in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region, as it does for 29 of its other 30 teams.

Coach Sgarlata firmly believes in a future with the PL but the next coach might not be so committed.

It will when you guys give some scholarships.

[aceinthehole]

It will when you guys give some scholarships.

Or they are welcome in the NEC 😁

If GU doesn't do something (increase resources, change approach, or switch leagues) nothing will change.

[RichH2]

Hoyas don't need to add schollies to improve. Certainly would help but unlikely GU will do so. Hoyas can compete with need aid only but it must increase the funding. Possible but still unlikely. DFW has a good point that PL should modify its By-laws for a non scholarship program to even the playing field somewhat.

[Franks Tanks]

We all know there are currently 0 candidates that are attractive to the league and vice versa. We don’t need to panic unless a football member has serious plans to bolt. I do like the smaller league with a bunch of scheduling flexibility.

W&M just ain’t gonna happen. She’s our first love that dumped us 30 years ago, guys.

[ngineer]

We all know there are currently 0 candidates that are attractive to the league and vice versa. We don’t need to panic unless a football member has serious plans to bolt. I do like the smaller league with a bunch of scheduling flexibility.

W&M just ain’t gonna happen. She’s our first love that dumped us 30 years ago, guys.

xlolx So true. W&M and Richmond fit the PL foot print well, but it aint happening. Other than Hopkins wanting to move up to FCS, D-1, I don't see another that would make sense to the PL Presidents, and it's they who make the decision, not the ADs. 'Nova makes a lot of sense...EXCEPT they would never downgrade their basketball program. Maybe an associate member in all sports but b-ball?? I don't even know if they could do that. We have a lot of contests with Nova in many of our sports.

[Go...gate]

We all know there are currently 0 candidates that are attractive to the league and vice versa. We don’t need to panic unless a football member has serious plans to bolt. I do like the smaller league with a bunch of scheduling flexibility.

W&M just ain’t gonna happen. She’s our first love that dumped us 30 years ago, guys.

Actually 39 years ago.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Does anyone have recent football budget data for PL football programs; say from the last 3-5 years? I'm putting something together for my studies; comparing recent spending trends. IIRC, Lehigh's budget had fallen to mid-pack relative to their PL peers.....

[DFW HOYA]

Does anyone have recent football budget data for PL football programs; say from the last 3-5 years? I'm putting something together for my studies; comparing recent spending trends. IIRC, Lehigh's budget had fallen to mid-pack relative to their PL peers.....

Total expenses by school:



2021
Fordham University
$7,833,065


2021
Lafayette College
$7,628,759


2021
Colgate University
$7,176,868


2021
College of the Holy Cross
$7,147,408


2021
Bucknell University
$6,319,656


2021
Lehigh University
$6,163,858


2021
Georgetown University
$2,794,493







2020
Fordham University
$6,398,313


2020
Colgate University
$5,898,383


2020
Lafayette College
$5,746,671


2020
Bucknell University
$5,559,409


2020
Lehigh University
$5,232,502


2020
College of the Holy Cross
$5,231,922


2020
Georgetown University
DNP







2019
Fordham University
$7,336,478


2019
Lafayette College
$6,942,985


2019
Colgate University
$6,674,764


2019
Lehigh University
$6,094,755


2019
Bucknell University
$5,938,686


2019
College of the Holy Cross
$5,640,013


2019
Georgetown University
$2,202,677







2018
Fordham University
$7,594,200


2018
Lafayette College
$6,840,900


2018
Colgate University
$6,743,022


2018
Bucknell University
$6,192,470


2018
Lehigh University
$5,969,420


2018
College of the Holy Cross
$5,605,872


2018
Georgetown University
$2,349,037







2017
Fordham University
$7,386,341


2017
Lafayette College
$6,689,080


2017
Colgate University
$6,210,219


2017
College of the Holy Cross
$6,132,785


2017
Bucknell University
$5,783,515


2017
Lehigh University
$5,766,426


2017
Georgetown University
$2,038,836

[Leopard Loyalist]

Total expenses by school:



2021
Fordham University
$7,833,065


2021
Lafayette College
$7,628,759


2021
Colgate University
$7,176,868


2021
College of the Holy Cross
$7,147,408


2021
Bucknell University
$6,319,656


2021
Lehigh University
$6,163,858


2021
Georgetown University
$2,794,493







2020
Fordham University
$6,398,313


2020
Colgate University
$5,898,383


2020
Lafayette College
$5,746,671


2020
Bucknell University
$5,559,409


2020
Lehigh University
$5,232,502


2020
College of the Holy Cross
$5,231,922


2020
Georgetown University
DNP







2019
Fordham University
$7,336,478


2019
Lafayette College
$6,942,985


2019
Colgate University
$6,674,764


2019
Lehigh University
$6,094,755


2019
Bucknell University
$5,938,686


2019
College of the Holy Cross
$5,640,013


2019
Georgetown University
$2,202,677







2018
Fordham University
$7,594,200


2018
Lafayette College
$6,840,900


2018
Colgate University
$6,743,022


2018
Bucknell University
$6,192,470


2018
Lehigh University
$5,969,420


2018
College of the Holy Cross
$5,605,872


2018
Georgetown University
$2,349,037







2017
Fordham University
$7,386,341


2017
Lafayette College
$6,689,080


2017
Colgate University
$6,210,219


2017
College of the Holy Cross
$6,132,785


2017
Bucknell University
$5,783,515


2017
Lehigh University
$5,766,426


2017
Georgetown University
$2,038,836



Kind of a poor ROI for my alma mater.

[Go...gate]

Is the disparity with Georgetown solely due to scholarship funding, or something else as well?

[NY Crusader 2010]

[/B]xlolx So true. W&M and Richmond fit the PL foot print well, but it aint happening. Other than Hopkins wanting to move up to FCS, D-1, I don't see another that would make sense to the PL Presidents, and it's they who make the decision, not the ADs. 'Nova makes a lot of sense...EXCEPT they would never downgrade their basketball program. Maybe an associate member in all sports but b-ball?? I don't even know if they could do that. We have a lot of contests with Nova in many of our sports.

Neither would Richmond. "Basketball-only" conference affiliations are actually not allowed per NCAA by-laws, so either Richmond or Villanova would be prospective members for football only.

I thought that if Fordham experienced an extra 5 or so years of being an A-10 basketball laughingstock, that perhaps they'd start to think about going back to the Patriot for all-sports. But given the resurgence they've had the last couple years under Neptune and now Urgo, zero shot that's considered anytime soon. Fordham needs to strike while the iron's hot and secure funding for a new field house. And if you attend a Fordham home basketball game against an A-10 opponent when they're actually good, you could see why there'd be absolutely no appetite to downgrade to the basketball wasteland that is the Patriot League.

[DFW HOYA]

Kind of a poor ROI for my alma mater.

Patriot League teams ranked nationally by spending (126 FCS teams, 2021-22):

4. Fordham
5. Lafayette
9. Colgate
10. Holy Cross
15. Bucknell
17. Lehigh
111. Georgetown

[Fordham]

Patriot League teams ranked nationally by spending (126 FCS teams, 2021-22):

4. Fordham
5. Lafayette
9. Colgate
10. Holy Cross
15. Bucknell
17. Lehigh
111. Georgetown
Curious what that would look like if you remove the value of the 60+ scholarships? PL schools have such high tuition that it distorts the $$$ spent imo. Just not sure by how much

[DFW HOYA]

Curious what that would look like if you remove the value of the 60+ scholarships? PL schools have such high tuition that it distorts the $$$ spent imo. Just not sure by how much

I ran the numbers again with some assumptions; obviously, each school assigns cost a little differently:

1) a $60K sticker price for a private school scholarship, 63 grants unless noted otherwise
2) $30K for a private HBCU,
3) $20K for a Cal-State school
4) $15K for a public school,
5) Ivy and Pioneer at $0 per grant
6) PL at 60 grants, NEC at 45 grants and Georgetown at 15 equivalencies.

The PL schools unofficially rank as follows:

21. Fordham
28. Lafayette
43. Colgate
44. Holy Cross
79. Bucknell
81. Lehigh
101. Georgetown

[ElCid]

I ran the numbers again with some assumptions; obviously, each school assigns cost a little differently:

1) a $60K sticker price for a private school scholarship, 63 grants unless noted otherwise
2) $30K for a private HBCU,
3) $20K for a Cal-State school
4) $15K for a public school,
5) Ivy and Pioneer at $0 per grant
6) PL at 60 grants, NEC at 45 grants and Georgetown at 15 equivalencies.

The PL schools unofficially rank as follows:

21. Fordham
28. Lafayette
43. Colgate
44. Holy Cross
79. Bucknell
81. Lehigh
101. Georgetown

How about in state vs out of state for state schools? As an example, the DIFFERENCE between in state and out state for The Citadel is $23K per year! The difference for WCU is $4K. UTC is $16K difference per year. For VMI the difference per year is a whopping $29K per year! But they have like 80% students from VA. I'm sure most state schools have a different rate, but how you would account for what an out of state athlete's scholarship is worth is anyone's guess. Have to use a formula like 60% in state, 40% out, or something like that. Or does it really matter?

[DFW HOYA]

How about in state vs out of state for state schools? As an example, the DIFFERENCE between in state and out state for The Citadel is $23K per year! The difference for WCU is $4K. UTC is $16K difference per year. For VMI the difference per year is a whopping $29K per year! But they have like 80% students from VA. I'm sure most state schools have a different rate, but how you would account for what an out of state athlete's scholarship is worth is anyone's guess. Have to use a formula like 60% in state, 40% out, or something like that. Or does it really matter?

Here's where it gets cloudy. You would have to go on a team by team basis to determine in-state vs. out of state kids, and the idea of the $15K was a blend of in-state and out of state rates, which can range from $6K to $26K a year. Then, if some are getting a full ride versus splitting a scholarship, it gets even murkier.

[NY Crusader 2010]

IMO scholarship costs should just be completely eliminated when ranking spending.

[ElCid]

IMO scholarship costs should just be completely eliminated when ranking spending.

Probably, since I've known starters that were on full rides for something "other" than football. I guess you can call that a bonus.

Which always gets me wondering how Army and Navy and AF keep track of their 85. When they are 100% on scholarship. I'm sure there are some accounting/recruiting rules specially made for them. I just don't know.

[aceinthehole]

For the record, NEC permits, but does not require:

1) Up to a maximum of 60 athletic scholarships - no minimum.

2) Remainder of Grants-in-aid to NCAA maximum; again no minimum.

Basically, the NEC can mix and match scholarships and grants up to the NCAA maximum and become a "bowl counter"

[FUBeAR]

Probably, since I've known starters that were on full rides for something "other" than football. I guess you can call that a bonus.

Which always gets me wondering how Army and Navy and AF keep track of their 85. When they are 100% on scholarship. I'm sure there are some accounting/recruiting rules specially made for them. I just don't know.Unless the rules have changed in the past decade or so, the only limitations the Service Academies have is the total number of Recruits they could host annually for Official Visits.

13.6.2.3.5.2 National Service Academies and Institutions That Do Not Subscribe to the National Letter of Intent. [FBS/FCS] A national service academy or an institution that does not subscribe to the National Letter of Intent may provide 70 official visits, 56 of which may be provided prior to the initial date of the regular signing period of the National Letter of Intent. An official visit provided to a senior prospective student-athlete April 1 through July 31 may count toward the previous year's limit. (Adopted: 1/22/20)


They don’t have an “85” or a “105.” They can have as many as they want to have on their roster / in their program AND they can have as many as they want at their affiliated Prep Schools. SA Prep School Players can go anywhere though. They don’t necessarily have to move to their affiliated academy following their Prep year.

[ElCid]

Unless the rules have changed in the past decade or so, the only limitations the Service Academies have is the total number of Recruits they could host annually for Official Visits.

13.6.2.3.5.2 National Service Academies and Institutions That Do Not Subscribe to the National Letter of Intent. [FBS/FCS] A national service academy or an institution that does not subscribe to the National Letter of Intent may provide 70 official visits, 56 of which may be provided prior to the initial date of the regular signing period of the National Letter of Intent. An official visit provided to a senior prospective student-athlete April 1 through July 31 may count toward the previous year's limit. (Adopted: 1/22/20)


They don’t have an “85” or a “105.” They can have as many as they want to have on their roster / in their program AND they can have as many as they want at their affiliated Prep Schools. SA Prep School Players can go anywhere though. They don’t necessarily have to move to their affiliated academy following their Prep year.

I had a feeling you would know the scoop. Thanks!

[Go...gate]

Neither would Richmond. "Basketball-only" conference affiliations are actually not allowed per NCAA by-laws, so either Richmond or Villanova would be prospective members for football only.

I thought that if Fordham experienced an extra 5 or so years of being an A-10 basketball laughingstock, that perhaps they'd start to think about going back to the Patriot for all-sports. But given the resurgence they've had the last couple years under Neptune and now Urgo, zero shot that's considered anytime soon. Fordham needs to strike while the iron's hot and secure funding for a new field house. And if you attend a Fordham home basketball game against an A-10 opponent when they're actually good, you could see why there'd be absolutely no appetite to downgrade to the basketball wasteland that is the Patriot League.

Not so sure we are a "wasteland".

[NY Crusader 2010]

Not so sure we are a "wasteland".

Our current top basketball program (by a landslide) in the PL averages like 800 fans a game....yea, it's a wasteland.

[Mike296]

With the Success HC is having these days one has to wonder if they eventually get a CAA invite if they continue to do as well as they are now. I’m a bit out of touch on the FCS landscape as I’ve been dealing with numerous health issues. However, I must acknowledge the fact that eventually if they continue in this vein that someone is bound to come calling if it hasn’t happened yet.

[NY Crusader 2010]

With the Success HC is having these days one has to wonder if they eventually get a CAA invite if they continue to do as well as they are now. I’m a bit out of touch on the FCS landscape as I’ve been dealing with numerous health issues. However, I must acknowledge the fact that eventually if they continue in this vein that someone is bound to come calling if it hasn’t happened yet.

That ship has sailed. If Holy Cross had any interest in joining the CAA, the time to make their pitch was a year and a half ago when they went through a robust round of expansion. Holy Cross would actually bridge the geographic gap between Hofstra and Northeastern nicely (as would Fairfield, who the CAA was rumored to have been interested in.

The CAA has 14 all-sports and 15 football members so adding Holy Cross at this point just wouldn't make sense.

[Mike296]

That ship has sailed. If Holy Cross had any interest in joining the CAA, the time to make their pitch was a year and a half ago when they went through a robust round of expansion. Holy Cross would actually bridge the geographic gap between Hofstra and Northeastern nicely (as would Fairfield, who the CAA was rumored to have been interested in.

The CAA has 14 all-sports and 15 football members so adding Holy Cross at this point just wouldn't make sense.

Fair enough, like I said in my post im a bit out of touch on the whole realignment stuff in the FCS/Mid Major conferences. Thanks for enlightening me on this.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Georgetown's status in the Patriot League is increasingly becoming untenable. It has a total of 24 wins against the current PL teams in the last 22 years: 15 vs. Bucknell and Lafayette, and just 9-73 versus everyone else.

Georgetown should join the Pioneer, a league that is actually open to expansion. I say this not only to troll up 50 more posts on this thread, but also to influence all you power brokers.

The Hoyas would win many more games in the PFL. Marist is a given. Schedule Stetson during hurricane season, and they'll be good for three forfeits every decade. Presto! You're already a quarter of the way to an automatic playoff bid.

GU has recently played Dayton...tried to play San Diego...and has played Davidson and Butler in the past. If Xavier follows through with its plans for a PFL team, you'll have a natural rival. I imagine St. Thomas would also be an attractive game for Georgetown.

The Ivies would still play Georgetown...unless the Hoyas starting beating them.

Merit aid/equivalencies? Not allowed in the PFL, of course. And, unlike GU, Pioneer schools generally offer academic based scholarships or reduced tuition (including the ever popular "Presidential Scholarship.")

Davidson, which has very little academic aid, has taken the autobid from the PFL for more consecutive seasons that I want to think about. For the PFL, they have all the financial aid they need, and so does Georgetown.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Here's some Future Shock:

Let's say that St. Thomas eventually fulfills its dream of Big East membership.

When that happens, the PFL membership includes the Tommies, Butler, Xavier, and Georgetown.

At that point, would the Big East office take over management of the PFL?

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown should join the Pioneer, a league that is actually open to expansion. I say this not only to troll up 50 more posts on this thread, but also to influence all you power brokers.

The Hoyas would win many more games in the PFL. Marist is a given. Schedule Stetson during hurricane season, and they'll be good for three forfeits every decade. Presto! You're already a quarter of the way to an automatic playoff bid.

GU has recently played Dayton...tried to play San Diego...and has played Davidson and Butler in the past. If Xavier follows through with its plans for a PFL team, you'll have a natural rival. I imagine St. Thomas would also be an attractive game for Georgetown.

The Ivies would still play Georgetown...unless the Hoyas starting beating them.

Merit aid/equivalencies? Not allowed in the PFL, of course. And, unlike GU, Pioneer schools generally offer academic based scholarships or reduced tuition (including the ever popular "Presidential Scholarship.")

Davidson, which has very little academic aid, has taken the autobid from the PFL for more consecutive seasons that I want to think about. For the PFL, they have all the financial aid they need, and so does Georgetown.

I feel like we go through this every other year or so. That said...

1. Georgetown has no interest in the Pioneer. Never has.
2. It is not guaranteed Georgetown would win more games in the PFL.
3. There are no natural rivals in the PFL; Xavier is certainly not one.
4. Most Ivies don't want to play Georgetown now and a 8-9 game conference season would limit that even more.
5. Every PFL school offers some form of merit aid, and Georgetown does not.
6. Georgetown does not have "all the financial aid they need", not by a long shot.

[Baron Sardonicus]

In the immortal words of His Dudeness, "yeah, well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man."

[DFW HOYA]

At some point the PL cognoscenti have to acknowledge a fact: it's not coaching or location or S&C that keeps Georgetown football in the cellar of Eastern football year after year, it's talent. That's talent that wasn't admittable to Georgetown under league rules before there were scholarships, and talent that is not admittable now.

[KPSUL]

Is this Thread about Patriot League expansion or contraction?

[Go...gate]

Our current top basketball program (by a landslide) in the PL averages like 800 fans a game....yea, it's a wasteland.

Except for you guys in your glory years, none of the PL schools have been a great basketball draw.

Similar to football, for many years Colgate basketball was primarily a "road" team. Hockey was and remains the more popular sport.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Except for you guys in your glory years, none of the PL schools have been a great basketball draw.

Similar to football, for many years Colgate basketball was primarily a "road" team. Hockey was and remains the more popular sport.

Bucknell has routinely averaged close to 3,000 fans at home games when good. Of course, they fell to the PL standard of triple-digit home attendance figures as they've stunk the last couple years. Lafayette has a very loyal fan base and typically draws in the ballpark of 2,000 despite always having a middle-of-the-pack type of team most years.

I've always been surprised at how badly Army draws for hoops. Mainly because they always have great hockey crowds despite not being much better at hockey than they are at basketball. They get tons of youth hockey teams and families in to fill the stands for every home game at Tate Rink -- it's a great atmosphere. Why can't they replicate this for basketball? There are plenty of youth basketball teams throughout the Hudson Valley, and West Point is the most conveniently located DI school to attend a game for most of the Hudson Valley and North Jersey. And it's a great gym. Perhaps hockey being on Friday and Saturday nights versus basketball being on Wednesday nights and Saturday afternoons is the difference? A school night and then a weekend afternoon where kids likely have their own games.

And I didn't mean to take a shot at Colgate -- there's absolutely nobody in Hamilton. The town population is probably not even 2,000 people. They have almost nobody to draw from for attending fans outside of students and faculty.

[Go...gate]

At some point the PL cognoscenti have to acknowledge a fact: it's not coaching or location or S&C that keeps Georgetown football in the cellar of Eastern football year after year, it's talent. That's talent that wasn't admittable to Georgetown under league rules before there were scholarships, and talent that is not admittable now.

Then why not put yourselves on a level playing field with the rest of the league?

- - - Updated - - -


Is this Thread about Patriot League expansion or contraction?

Expansion.

[DFW HOYA]

Then why not put yourselves on a level playing field with the rest of the league?
- - - Updated - - -
Not exactly an expansion issue, but the usual suspects are at play: 1) The league is not going to cut Georgetown any slack on the Index, and 2) Georgetown leadership does not see scholarships as plausible when the cost of acquisition far exceeds any benefits. As I've said here before, without AI reform, a 60-scholarship Georgetown program is Bucknell.

As for expansion, the league could do worse than to revisit the likes of Monmouth and Bryant.

[NY Crusader 2010]

- - - Updated - - -
Not exactly an expansion issue, but the usual suspects are at play: 1) The league is not going to cut Georgetown any slack on the Index, and 2) Georgetown leadership does not see scholarships as plausible when the cost of acquisition far exceeds any benefits. As I've said here before, without AI reform, a 60-scholarship Georgetown program is Bucknell.

As for expansion, the league could do worse than to revisit the likes of Monmouth and Bryant.

Pretty sure ship has sailed on both counts. Monmouth wanted into the PL 10 years ago. They'd probably laugh at the idea of an invite today.

[UNHWildcat18]

Pretty sure ship has sailed on both counts. Monmouth wanted into the PL 10 years ago. They'd probably laugh at the idea of an invite today.

Would have been a better fit for them IMHO.

[aceinthehole]

Pretty sure ship has sailed on both counts. Monmouth wanted into the PL 10 years ago. They'd probably laugh at the idea of an invite today.

Monmouth jumped from NEC to MAAC to CAA. They simply aren't interested in the PL anymore.

Bryant might consider it, but honestly not sure they would gain much. Certainly, a football-only move would be welcomed in Smithfield, but that doesn't do much for the PL, but add a conference game.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Monmouth jumped from NEC to MAAC to CAA. They simply aren't interested in the PL anymore.

Bryant might consider it, but honestly not sure they would gain much. Certainly, a football-only move would be welcomed in Smithfield, but that doesn't do much for the PL, but add a conference game.

Forgot for a minute that Bryant is in the Big South / OVC football merger now, as they left NEC for America East in all other sports. A move to the PL as a football affiliate would make sense for Bryant right now, and they'd made the league stronger. But it won't happen.

[ngineer]

I would think a school like Elon would be a better fit for the PL profile, from a football standpoint; though, I don't know if they would or could be a member for all sports. Same thought with regard to Howard. The only other 'southern' school that might help with some kind of rival with Georgetown might be Johns Hopkins, though they would have to jump up to D-I (their lacrosse program is grandfathered in). It always comes down to the Presidents and how they view a potential member as fitting into the PL profile and there are few schools who do.

[Go...gate]

- - - Updated - - -
Not exactly an expansion issue, but the usual suspects are at play: 1) The league is not going to cut Georgetown any slack on the Index, and 2) Georgetown leadership does not see scholarships as plausible when the cost of acquisition far exceeds any benefits. As I've said here before, without AI reform, a 60-scholarship Georgetown program is Bucknell.

As for expansion, the league could do worse than to revisit the likes of Monmouth and Bryant.

Why should the league cut them slack? All the football schools are highly selective.

[RichH2]

Why should the league cut them slack? All the football schools are highly selective.

Mostly true but the wrinkle is the AI gap between Hoyas and every other school. Some AI slack would help but not a game changer IMO unless football gets additional funding.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

About 6 weeks from the start of fall camp and we're still rehashing nonsensical expansion talk rather than discussing each team's relevant talking points heading into the 2023 season. Perhaps it reflects the current state of the programs outside of Worcester? To be fair, no league in the country goes to script quite like the PL. So I guess it's hard to be excited about the status-quo on the field. The off the field status-quo at least allows thoughts to expand upon the "boring seven".

Of note, I have never seen interest in Lehigh football so low. Gilmore significantly compromised the programs' soul while the administration sat idly by after hiring him in the first place.

Colgate is another sad story right now.

Hopefully Fordham can claw their way to a winning season. Can't have too much faith in the Leopards since Lafayette is going on 14 years without a winning record (Covid season excluded).

I applaud what Chesney is doing but he's clowning the hapless at this point. Shame this isn't the early to mid 2000s PL when there were 3-4 programs ranked (Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette).

[DFW HOYA]

About 6 weeks from the start of fall camp and we're still rehashing nonsensical expansion talk rather than discussing each team's relevant talking points heading into the 2023 season. Perhaps it reflects the current state of the programs outside of Worcester? To be fair, no league in the country goes to script quite like the PL. So I guess it's hard to be excited about the status-quo on the field. The off the field status-quo at least allows thoughts to expand upon the "boring seven"..

Thanks for posting this. While the folks in Worcester will soon be debating whether the concrete foundation on Fitton Field can hold all the championship banners coming its way, the rest of the league will soon pass under the NEC in competitiveness and interest.

Perhaps we can debate how it got to this. Lehigh and Lafayette are at generational lows right now. The Red Raiders enter 2023 with four consecutive losing seasons for the first time since Ed Sweeney was coach. Bucknell is 10-38 since 2018. Since 2015, Georgetown is 2-26 versus PL schools not named Bucknell or Lafayette and hasn't won a game at home, in or out of conference, in nearly four years. The bottom four teams in the league were a combined 3-17 at home last season.

Every school has its own issues, but where is the league's leadership in setting expectations, standards, and direction for the league as a whole? It's rare to see a conference where seven schools are aligned in seven different directions. If there is no direction, there will be no progress.

[Southsider]

Thanks for posting this. While the folks in Worcester will soon be debating whether the concrete foundation on Fitton Field can hold all the championship banners coming its way, the rest of the league will soon pass under the NEC in competitiveness and interest.

Perhaps we can debate how it got to this. Lehigh and Lafayette are at generational lows right now. The Red Raiders enter 2023 with four consecutive losing seasons for the first time since Ed Sweeney was coach. Bucknell is 10-38 since 2018. Since 2015, Georgetown is 2-26 versus PL schools not named Bucknell or Lafayette and hasn't won a game at home, in or out of conference, in nearly four years. The bottom four teams in the league were a combined 3-17 at home last season.

Every school has its own issues, but where is the league's leadership in setting expectations, standards, and direction for the league as a whole? It's rare to see a conference where seven schools are aligned in seven different directions. If there is no direction, there will be no progress.

The only solution is to shut the PL down for FB. It has become a laughing-stock, and the Presidents don't care. Failing makes it easier for them to pull the plug for FB. I don't put anything past these people. They probably feel that most of the old guard die hards will be gone soon, so they won't get any pushback.

[WestCoastAggie]

Thanks for posting this. While the folks in Worcester will soon be debating whether the concrete foundation on Fitton Field can hold all the championship banners coming its way, the rest of the league will soon pass under the NEC in competitiveness and interest.

Perhaps we can debate how it got to this. Lehigh and Lafayette are at generational lows right now. The Red Raiders enter 2023 with four consecutive losing seasons for the first time since Ed Sweeney was coach. Bucknell is 10-38 since 2018. Since 2015, Georgetown is 2-26 versus PL schools not named Bucknell or Lafayette and hasn't won a game at home, in or out of conference, in nearly four years. The bottom four teams in the league were a combined 3-17 at home last season.

Every school has its own issues, but where is the league's leadership in setting expectations, standards, and direction for the league as a whole? It's rare to see a conference where seven schools are aligned in seven different directions. If there is no direction, there will be no progress.
You can always beat up on the MEAC.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The only solution is to shut the PL down for FB. It has become a laughing-stock, and the Presidents don't care. Failing makes it easier for them to pull the plug for FB. I don't put anything past these people. They probably feel that most of the old guard die hards will be gone soon, so they won't get any pushback.

What?

I know the football conference has been down lately (minus HC and Fordham), but it's still the sport with the most tradition behind it. Patriot League basketball is a total snooze fest.

[ngineer]

The only solution is to shut the PL down for FB. It has become a laughing-stock, and the Presidents don't care. Failing makes it easier for them to pull the plug for FB. I don't put anything past these people. They probably feel that most of the old guard die hards will be gone soon, so they won't get any pushback.

This idea was raised before. The PL does not have wrestling as a league sport. No reason it has to do so with football. Perhaps the 'Boring Seven' can create their own league separate from the PL. Lehigh was never in a "league" prior to the "Colonial/Patriot" creation of Likins. Aside from the loose confederation of the "Middle Three", Lehigh has traditionally been independent, as was Lafayette and others. The creation of the PL was solely a mechanism to get a shot into the national and, then, "new" I-AA classification. If it is deemed important to be eligible for the FCS playoffs, then lets create a new league, not beholden to the PL strictures. The only alternative would be to create a new league in confederation with the Ivy and have our respective champions play for some golden calf and forget about "national champions".

[Go...gate]

Thanks for posting this. While the folks in Worcester will soon be debating whether the concrete foundation on Fitton Field can hold all the championship banners coming its way, the rest of the league will soon pass under the NEC in competitiveness and interest.

Perhaps we can debate how it got to this. Lehigh and Lafayette are at generational lows right now. The Red Raiders enter 2023 with four consecutive losing seasons for the first time since Ed Sweeney was coach. Bucknell is 10-38 since 2018. Since 2015, Georgetown is 2-26 versus PL schools not named Bucknell or Lafayette and hasn't won a game at home, in or out of conference, in nearly four years. The bottom four teams in the league were a combined 3-17 at home last season.

Every school has its own issues, but where is the league's leadership in setting expectations, standards, and direction for the league as a whole? It's rare to see a conference where seven schools are aligned in seven different directions. If there is no direction, there will be no progress.

There is certainly more hope at Colgate with a new Athletic Director and, hopefully, a fresh outlook on Football and Hockey.

And why not discuss expansion?

[caribbeanhen]

You can always beat up on the MEAC.

NC Central still in the MEAC ?

[NY Crusader 2010]

NC Central still in the MEAC ?

NC Central not only won the MEAC last year, they beat Jackson State in the Celebration Bowl. In addition to a regular season win over CAA co-champ UNH, on the road. They are still in the MEAC right now.

[caribbeanhen]

NC Central not only won the MEAC last year, they beat Jackson State in the Celebration Bowl. In addition to a regular season win over CAA co-champ UNH, on the road. They are still in the MEAC right now.

Yep, it was a tongue in cheek type post. The level of Patriot league play is certainly not gonna help Holy Cross prepare for the playoffs and beating a few of the bully boys of FCS like South Dakota State, the Bison, Montana St …

Can Chesney figure out a way to get it done ? FCS needs some new blood in Frisco

[crusader11]

Yep, it was a tongue in cheek type post. The level of Patriot league play is certainly not gonna help Holy Cross prepare for the playoffs and beating a few of the bully boys of FCS like South Dakota State, the Bison, Montana St …

Can Chesney figure out a way to get it done ? FCS needs some new blood in Frisco

Kind of nice HC gets Army on November 11...breaks up a weak stretch of PL games.

[Go...gate]

Go look at the Davidson stadium thread elsewhere on here.

Wouldn't they be a great fit if they re-joined the PL as an Associate Member?

[Sitting Bull]

Go look at the Davidson stadium thread elsewhere on here.

Wouldn't they be a great fit if they re-joined the PL as an Associate Member?

I think they were actually a previous member replacing W&M on the original formation of the Colonial League back in 1982. They played a year or two, then pulled out. I’m guessing it was geography at that time.

It’s tough to argue geography is a problem today given their play in the widespread Pioneer. As a Patriot member, they could fit.

[crusader11]

People forget that former Bucknell coach, Joe Susan, led Davidson to a 10-0 record in 2000 -- his only year at Davidson.

[DFW HOYA]

Go look at the Davidson stadium thread elsewhere on here.
Wouldn't they be a great fit if they re-joined the PL as an Associate Member?

Much like Georgetown, the PL is a less than optimal home for Davidson given its scholarship situation.

There are 500 student athletes at Davidson (over 25 percent of the student body) yet only two sports (men's basketball, and men's golf) offer the full complement of athletic scholarships. Davidson offers 36.75 men's scholarships and 36 women's scholarships. There may have been a time where the PL could offer a school the ability to be reasonably competitive without scholarships by allowing schools to buy out the loan portion of financial aid, but Davidson no longer includes loans in its financial aid. That aside, two things are now apparent:

1. One cannot compete in the PL with fewer than 60 athletic scholarships; and

2. Davidson is not going to triple its athletic scholarships merely to play one sport in the PL.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/davidsonwildcats.com/documents/2020/9/22/2020_21_DAF_Guide_to_Giving.pdf

[ElCid]

I think they were actually a previous member replacing W&M on the original formation of the Colonial League back in 1982. They played a year or two, then pulled out. I’m guessing it was geography at that time.

It’s tough to argue geography is a problem today given their play in the widespread Pioneer. As a Patriot member, they could fit.

Pretty sure it was 87-88 they were in PL. Not sure it was geography. They were just bad. Went like 2-40 from 1985-88 before they dropped to Div III in 89 I think. And those two wins were over then NAIA Wofford.

[The Cats]

Much like Georgetown, the PL is a less than optimal home for Davidson given its scholarship situation.

There are 500 student athletes at Davidson (over 25 percent of the student body) yet only two sports (men's basketball, and men's golf) offer the full complement of athletic scholarships. Davidson offers 36.75 men's scholarships and 36 women's scholarships. There may have been a time where the PL could offer a school the ability to be reasonably competitive without scholarships by allowing schools to buy out the loan portion of financial aid, but Davidson no longer includes loans in its financial aid. That aside, two things are now apparent:

1. One cannot compete in the PL with fewer than 60 athletic scholarships; and

2. Davidson is not going to triple its athletic scholarships merely to play one sport in the PL.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/davidsonwildcats.com/documents/2020/9/22/2020_21_DAF_Guide_to_Giving.pdf

Who needs athletic scholarships, when Davidson offers...

"In 2007, Davidson College announced that all students would have their demonstrated financial need met by grants and student employment; loans would no longer be a component of any Davidson financial aid package. The Duke Endowment pledged $15,000,000 to support the initiative and it was named The Davidson Trust. In addition to not including loans in their financial aid packages, Davidson's 2014 capital campaign adding 156 new scholarships funded with $88 million. Davidson states that they are committed to providing 100% of demonstrated need of all students, with 44% of students receiving need-based aid and over 50% receiving some form of financial aid."

...as of 2022, the Davidson endowment was $1.3 billion - obviously, the Davidson leadership can afford to do whatever they want to do.

[DFW HOYA]

...as of 2022, the Davidson endowment was $1.3 billion - obviously, the Davidson leadership can afford to do whatever they want to do.


Endowment is largely irrelevant to athletics. Many large gifts are restricted to a school or program; for example, a bequest to the library can't be redirected to football, nor should it.

[The Cats]

Endowment is largely irrelevant to athletics. Many large gifts are restricted to a school or program; for example, a bequest to the library can't be redirected to football, nor should it.

It matters not what a scholarship is called: athletic, academic, or need grant - they all serve the same purpose.

I certainly think out of $1.3 billion, Davidson can scrape together enough funds to meet any obligation they see fit. Call it academic or a grant, the football player would receive the same benefits, as well as a Davidson education.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Davidson to the PL as an associate member? Wouldn't be a bad fit but if Davidson were going to go scholarship football, wouldn't they be more likely to look to go to the SoCon and join fellow southern private schools Furman and Wofford? Or would that not be an option since Davidson pulled out of the SoCon in all other sports to join the A-10?

[Southsider]

This idea was raised before. The PL does not have wrestling as a league sport. No reason it has to do so with football. Perhaps the 'Boring Seven' can create their own league separate from the PL. Lehigh was never in a "league" prior to the "Colonial/Patriot" creation of Likins. Aside from the loose confederation of the "Middle Three", Lehigh has traditionally been independent, as was Lafayette and others. The creation of the PL was solely a mechanism to get a shot into the national and, then, "new" I-AA classification. If it is deemed important to be eligible for the FCS playoffs, then lets create a new league, not beholden to the PL strictures. The only alternative would be to create a new league in confederation with the Ivy and have our respective champions play for some golden calf and forget about "national champions".

Great idea. But if there was a will to do this it would have happened long ago. Like I said, when us old die-hards are gone, football may go, or be greatly diminished. Believe me, I hope I am wrong!

[ElCid]

Davidson to the PL as an associate member? Wouldn't be a bad fit but if Davidson were going to go scholarship football, wouldn't they be more likely to look to go to the SoCon and join fellow southern private schools Furman and Wofford? Or would that not be an option since Davidson pulled out of the SoCon in all other sports to join the A-10?

Yup. Not sure we would ever take them in football, ever. They left almost 40 years ago in football. The SOCON would probably never take anybody unless it were two, full members, with a public AND private at the same time. No reason to take an associate in a major sport. It would screw up scheduling big time.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Yup. Not sure we would ever take them in football, ever. They left almost 40 years ago in football. The SOCON would probably never take anybody unless it were two, full members, with a public AND private at the same time. No reason to take an associate in a major sport. It would screw up scheduling big time.

Maybe longer. They were in the SoCon back when William & Mary, Richmond, Virginia Tech, East Carolina and West Virginia were members in the 1960's and early 1970's. I think George Washington was in there as well up until they dropped the sport in the early or mid 1960's.

[FUBeAR]

Maybe longer. They were in the SoCon back when William & Mary, Richmond, Virginia Tech, East Carolina and West Virginia were members in the 1960's and early 1970's. I think George Washington was in there as well up until they dropped the sport in the early or mid 1960's.



Institution
Joined
Left
Current
Conference


University of Alabama (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Alabama)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Appalachian State University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_State_University)
1971
2014
Sun Belt (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt_Conference)


Auburn University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auburn_University)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


College of Charleston (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Charleston)
1998
2013
CAA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Athletic_Association)


Clemson University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemson_University)
1921
1953
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


Davidson College (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidson_College)
1936 | 1992
1988 | 2014
Atlantic 10 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference)


Duke University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_University)
1928
1953
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


East Carolina University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Carolina_University)
1964
1976
The American (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Athletic_Conference)


Elon University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_University)
2003
2014
CAA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Athletic_Association)


University of Florida (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Florida)
1922
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


George Washington University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University)
1941
1970
Atlantic 10 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference)


University of Georgia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Georgia)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Georgia Southern University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Southern_University)
1991
2014
Sun Belt (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt_Conference)


Georgia Institute of Technology (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech)
1921
1932
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


University of Kentucky (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Kentucky)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Louisiana State University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_University)
1922
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Marshall University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_University)
1976
1997
Sun Belt (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt_Conference)


University of Maryland, College Park (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Maryland,_College_Park)
1923
1953
Big Ten (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference)


University of Mississippi (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Mississippi)
1922
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Mississippi State University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_State_University)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)



University of North Carolina
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Chapel_Hill)
at Chapel Hill (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Chapel_Hill)
1921
1953
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


North Carolina State University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_State_University)
1921
1953
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


University of Richmond (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Richmond)
1936
1976
Atlantic 10 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference)



Sewanee: The University
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewanee:_The_University_of_the_South)
of the South (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewanee:_The_University_of_the_South)
1923
1932
Southern Athletic (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Athletic_Association)
(NCAA D-III (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_III))



University of South Carolina (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_South_Carolina)
1922
1953
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


University of Tennessee (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Tennessee)
1921
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


Tulane University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulane_University)
1922
1932
The American (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Athletic_Conference)


Vanderbilt University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanderbilt_University)
1922
1932
SEC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference)


University of Virginia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Virginia)
1921
1937
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)



Virginia Polytechnic Institute
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech)
and State University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech)
1921
1965
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


Wake Forest University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Forest_University)
1936
1953
ACC (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Coast_Conference)


Washington and Lee University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_and_Lee_University)
1921
1958
Old Dominion (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Dominion_Athletic_Conference)
(NCAA D-III (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_III))



West Virginia University (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_University)
1950
1968
Big 12 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_12_Conference)


The College of William & Mary (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_William_%26_Mary)
1936
1977
CAA (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_Athletic_Association)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/n45oy95z46gdw5180pae9x60r9k4hve.png

Atlantic 10 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference)

[Son of Eli]

Much like Georgetown, the PL is a less than optimal home for Davidson given its scholarship situation.

There are 500 student athletes at Davidson (over 25 percent of the student body) yet only two sports (men's basketball, and men's golf) offer the full complement of athletic scholarships. Davidson offers 36.75 men's scholarships and 36 women's scholarships. There may have been a time where the PL could offer a school the ability to be reasonably competitive without scholarships by allowing schools to buy out the loan portion of financial aid, but Davidson no longer includes loans in its financial aid. That aside, two things are now apparent:

1. One cannot compete in the PL with fewer than 60 athletic scholarships; and

2. Davidson is not going to triple its athletic scholarships merely to play one sport in the PL.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/sidearm.sites/davidsonwildcats.com/documents/2020/9/22/2020_21_DAF_Guide_to_Giving.pdf


If the Ivy League can compete against the Patriot League without athletic scholarships why couldn’t Davidson? Pretty sure St Thomas (without athletic scholarships) could easily compete in The Patriot League as well.

[DFW HOYA]

If the Ivy League can compete against the Patriot League without athletic scholarships why couldn’t Davidson? Pretty sure St Thomas (without athletic scholarships) could easily compete in The Patriot League as well.

If the Ivy League can compete against the Patriot League without athletic scholarships why can’t Georgetown? Asking for a friend, because it's the same issue Davidson would face.

[crusader11]

If the Ivy League can compete against the Patriot League without athletic scholarships why couldn’t Davidson? Pretty sure St Thomas (without athletic scholarships) could easily compete in The Patriot League as well.

You forgot to put athletic scholarships in quotations.

[Son of Eli]

If the Ivy League can compete against the Patriot League without athletic scholarships why can’t Georgetown? Asking for a friend, because it's the same issue Davidson would face.

Well, until recently Georgetown had one of the worst football stadiums in all of Division I football. Also, when is the last time Georgetown was good at football, in any league?

[DFW HOYA]

Well, until recently Georgetown had one of the worst football stadiums in all of Division I football. Also, when is the last time Georgetown was good at football, in any league?

1999 (9-2)

[Son of Eli]

After 8 seasons Georgetown head coach has a .287 winning percentage. How many schools would let that go on for so long without a coaching change? Apparently, he had no head coaching experience prior to being hired. Nothing wrong with taking a chance, but when it obviously doesn’t work out a school that cared about the success of its football program would make a change. There are plenty of excellent head coaches at the Division II and III level who would jump at the chance to coach Georgetown.

[DFW HOYA]

After 8 seasons Georgetown head coach has a .287 winning percentage. How many schools would let that go on for so long without a coaching change? Apparently, he had no head coaching experience prior to being hired. Nothing wrong with taking a chance, but when it obviously doesn’t work out a school that cared about the success of its football program would make a change. There are
plenty of excellent head coaches at the Division II and III level who would jump at the chance to coach Georgetown.

But they don't. It's not a job that attracts head coaching candidates, and hasn't for decades. Much like Cornell, it's not a good job for the resume of an up and coming head coach.

Scott Glacken was elevated to head coach in 1970 when the previous coach died of a heart attack. Glacken, a former AFL quarterback, had no previous head coaching, as he was just three years out of the league. Bob Benson was hired in 1992 at the age of 28 with three seasons as the DC at Johns Hopkins. Kevin Kelly had 11 stops as an D-I assistant in 23 years from Dartmouth to Tulane to Navy, but no head coaching experience. Rob Sgarlata has been a player, assistant coach and head coach at Georgetown for 32 of the last 33 seasons.

Georgetown's problem is not coaching: it is the inability to recruit and admit talent. Some of it is the PL Academic Index relative to the other schools, some of it is the financial aid, some of it is the facilities, and some of it is simply that players don't see a future there. In 23 years of PL play, Georgetown has a total of just three players named to the PL first team offensive lists, and one of which was recruited before Georgetown even joined the PL. Coaches will tell you that the Georgetown two-deep just doesn't match up across the line of scrimmage and the results reflect it: 25-102 versus PL teams (5-56 vs. Lehigh, Colgate, or Fordham), and 0-11 versus H/Y since 2001.

It's all about talent when FBS teams recruit All-Americans and PL/Ivy teams are signing All-Region players, Georgetown gets All-County kids. With those headwinds, head coaches will stay away.

[OhioHen]

You forgot to put athletic scholarships in quotations.
No, he forgot to put "without" in quotation marks.

[Son of Eli]

Those are all good points, but I still say players want to play for a coach who is a proven winner. Bring in a good new head coach with a history of winning from the division two or three level, like Holy Cross and Davidson did, and the good players will follow.


Maybe the problem might be with the Georgetown Athletic Director. The head-coaching hire in men’s basketball hasn’t fared much better. They have plenty of athletic scholarships and also great facilities for that program.

[Go...gate]

Pretty sure it was 87-88 they were in PL. Not sure it was geography. They were just bad. Went like 2-40 from 1985-88 before they dropped to Div III in 89 I think. And those two wins were over then NAIA Wofford.


Yes, you are correct, though they did not officially drop to DIII.

[Go...gate]

1999 (9-2)


I believe that was the year before Georgetown joined the league.

[Go...gate]

But they don't. It's not a job that attracts head coaching candidates, and hasn't for decades. Much like Cornell, it's not a good job for the resume of an up and coming head coach.

Scott Glacken was elevated to head coach in 1970 when the previous coach died of a heart attack. Glacken, a former AFL quarterback, had no previous head coaching, as he was just three years out of the league. Bob Benson was hired in 1992 at the age of 28 with three seasons as the DC at Johns Hopkins. Kevin Kelly had 11 stops as an D-I assistant in 23 years from Dartmouth to Tulane to Navy, but no head coaching experience. Rob Sgarlata has been a player, assistant coach and head coach at Georgetown for 32 of the last 33 seasons.

Georgetown's problem is not coaching: it is the inability to recruit and admit talent. Some of it is the PL Academic Index relative to the other schools, some of it is the financial aid, some of it is the facilities, and some of it is simply that players don't see a future there. In 23 years of PL play, Georgetown has a total of just three players named to the PL first team offensive lists, and one of which was recruited before Georgetown even joined the PL. Coaches will tell you that the Georgetown two-deep just doesn't match up across the line of scrimmage and the results reflect it: 25-102 versus PL teams (5-56 vs. Lehigh, Colgate, or Fordham), and 0-11 versus H/Y since 2001.

It's all about talent when FBS teams recruit All-Americans and PL/Ivy teams are signing All-Region players, Georgetown gets All-County kids. With those headwinds, head coaches will stay away.


Davidson was considered to be as much an undesirable football program - worse, in fact - than Georgetown. Tim Landis came in with a lot of piss and vinegar and got the program on the right track again. That is what Georgetown needs - a Landis or Fred Dunlap type. A little support from the administration also helps.

[Go Green]

Much like Cornell, it's not a good job for the resume of an up and coming head coach.



To be fair to Cornell, four of their previous five head coaches before Archer left voluntarily for greener pastures (professional or BCS teams).

[Son of Eli]

To be fair to Cornell, four of their previous five head coaches before Archer left voluntarily for greener pastures (professional or BCS teams).

Bob Blackman was a great coach. Came from a HC position at Illinois before going to Cornell. And Jim Knowles is now the DC of Ohio State.

[bulldog10jw]

Bob Blackman was a great coach. Came from a HC position at Illinois before going to Cornell. And Jim Knowles is now the DC of Ohio State.

Blackman was a great coach, but was never able to match the success he had at Dartmouth anywhere else.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Davidson was considered to be as much an undesirable football program - worse, in fact - than Georgetown. Tim Landis came in with a lot of piss and vinegar and got the program on the right track again. That is what Georgetown needs - a Landis or Fred Dunlap type. A little support from the administration also helps.

True, but finding a good coach willing to take over a program that handcuffs itself in comparison to league competition (and where the AI is less kind to G'town than any other school) will always be a challenge. Davidson doesn't have any disadvantages to my knowledge in comparison to the rest of the Pioneer.

[Go...gate]

True, but finding a good coach willing to take over a program that handcuffs itself in comparison to league competition (and where the AI is less kind to G'town than any other school) will always be a challenge. Davidson doesn't have any disadvantages to my knowledge in comparison to the rest of the Pioneer.

The AI hampers us all. I would rather have it. If one wants to be a member, one should play by the conference rules.

Georgetown needs to take a close look at changes to its program. GU'S President and administration are out of touch.

[Southsider]

The AI hampers us all. I would rather have it. If one wants to be a member, one should play by the conference rules.

Georgetown needs to take a close look at changes to its program. GU'S President and administration are out of touch.

The entire PL, except HC, is out of touch!

[NY Crusader 2010]

The AI hampers us all. I would rather have it. If one wants to be a member, one should play by the conference rules.

Georgetown needs to take a close look at changes to its program. GU'S President and administration are out of touch.

It has been pointed out that because Georgetown has the highest middle SAT range in the league, the AI-acceptable pool of athletes is smaller for them than the other 6 PL football schools.

But on 2nd thought wouldn't this same logic also apply to Harvard, Yale and Princeton? I'm sure their average SAT range is higher than at Penn, Cornell and Brown...and we know HYP has no problem competing in football...

[ngineer]

It has been pointed out that because Georgetown has the highest middle SAT range in the league, the AI-acceptable pool of athletes is smaller for them than the other 6 PL football schools.

But on 2nd thought wouldn't this same logic also apply to Harvard, Yale and Princeton? I'm sure their average SAT range is higher than at Penn, Cornell and Brown...and we know HYP has no problem competing in football...

But HYP have the cache and national footprint to recruit the best elite athletes with excellent academic transcripts, and the money to provide 'full rides' to a great percentage based upon their ability to offer the same to the whole student body. Plus, it is my understanding that the Ivies "admission bands" give a lot of wiggle room to the coaches. I know that we, Lehigh, have had admissions turn down some prospective recruits, who ended up at Penn.

[Go Green]

I know that we, Lehigh, have had admissions turn down some prospective recruits, who ended up at Penn.

Not sure how well they are doing it now, but historically, Penn has been very successful using the AI to its competitive advantage.

Yale, Dartmouth, and (especially) Princeton have fumed at various points in Ivy history about losing to Penn teams full of guys that they could not get accepted to their own schools.

[crusader11]

Didn’t Columbia get a “pass” with the AI in order to help them become more competitive?

[Go Green]

Didn’t Columbia get a “pass” with the AI in order to help them become more competitive?

My understanding is that they took it in the mid-to-late 1980s and did improve. Although they didn't challenge for the title, they at least won a few games (and broke The First Streak).

That said, my understanding is also that it created a huge backlash on the Columbia campus that the school was accepting football players who were nowhere near the levels of regular admissions. So the AI relief was just a one-time deal...

Also worth mentioning is that their star quarterback from that class later ended up pleading guilty to federal securities fraud charges. No idea if he was one of the guys who benefited from the lower AI standard though...

[Dane96]

After 8 seasons Georgetown head coach has a .287 winning percentage. How many schools would let that go on for so long without a coaching change? Apparently, he had no head coaching experience prior to being hired. Nothing wrong with taking a chance, but when it obviously doesn’t work out a school that cared about the success of its football program would make a change. There are plenty of excellent head coaches at the Division II and III level who would jump at the chance to coach Georgetown.

Mark Benson at Albany. (Gregg Gattuso has a .323 win percentage). The stakes are arguably higher at Albany due to the money put into the program and that Benson declared it his marquee sport.

[ngineer]

My understanding is that they took it in the mid-to-late 1980s and did improve. Although they didn't challenge for the title, they at least won a few games (and broke The First Streak).

That said, my understanding is also that it created a huge backlash on the Columbia campus that the school was accepting football players who were nowhere near the levels of regular admissions. So the AI relief was just a one-time deal...

Also worth mentioning is that their star quarterback from that class later ended up pleading guilty to federal securities fraud charges. No idea if he was one of the guys who benefited from the lower AI standard though...

Hah! Sort of ironic that a football player from an Ivy gets charged with securities fraud, as opposed to sexual assault, drinking/drug/ gun offenses...

[Go Green]

[/B]
Hah! Sort of ironic that a football player from an Ivy gets charged with securities fraud, as opposed to sexual assault, drinking/drug/ gun offenses...

Well, you know...

Former member of the Class of 2025 Ahmir Braxton arrested in connection to armed robbery | The Dartmouth (https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2023/06/ahmir-braxton-25-arrested-in-connection-to-armed-robbery)

:(

[caribbeanhen]

Well, you know...

Former member of the Class of 2025 Ahmir Braxton arrested in connection to armed robbery | The Dartmouth (https://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2023/06/ahmir-braxton-25-arrested-in-connection-to-armed-robbery)

:(

Ivy Leaguer

“After learning of the vehicle’s registration, police said they found Braxton’s public Facebook page, which contained images of both the vehicle from the robbery as well as those of Braxton holding large amounts of cash hours after a separate, Feb. 21 robbery, according to an affidavit”

[DFW HOYA]

The Dartmouth article references his "disaffiliation with the football team and the College". What, is expulsion no longer an accepted term?

[Green Cookie Monster]

The Dartmouth article references his "disaffiliation with the football team and the College". What, is expulsion no longer an accepted term?

It’s similar to unalive. Media is the devil.

[Go Green]

The Dartmouth article references his "disaffiliation with the football team and the College". What, is expulsion no longer an accepted term?

Not to defend the guy too much here, but he could have voluntarily withdrawn from school.

I mean, he *does* have more pressing things to deal with other than classes...

[Pards Rule]

I vote NO!! I like having 5 OOC games a year!

[Go...gate]

I vote NO!! I like having 5 OOC games a year!

You may get six a year if Holy Cross leaves....

[Wolffan]

I vote NO!! I like having 5 OOC games a year!

A big benefit of PL football membership is being able to play many games versus non-PL football members?

Not sure if that is an insult or a compliment to Patriot League football.

[Wolffan]

You may get six a year if Holy Cross leaves....If non-medical redshirts become an option for PL football, I can see them staying. (Covid) 5th-years have enabled HC to compete nationally and I don’t think they want to go backwards. (Of course coaching, facilities, and unnoticed football recruiting success have played their part too.)

[Pards Rule]

Ivy Leaguer

“After learning of the vehicle’s registration, police said they found Braxton’s public Facebook page, which contained images of both the vehicle from the robbery as well as those of Braxton holding large amounts of cash hours after a separate, Feb. 21 robbery, according to an affidavit”

Bet he got lots of fire emojis and likes - including one from police dept

[Pards Rule]

A big benefit of PL football membership is being able to play many games versus non-PL football members?

Not sure if that is an insult or a compliment to Patriot League football.

I embrace it. I have been to games away vs NDSU, Air Force, Army and going to Duke and a lot of nearby games and Easton games like vs Liberty. Im perfectly content with 5 OOCs.

[NY Crusader 2010]

You may get six a year if Holy Cross leaves....

That's not happening.

[Reign of Terrier]

The CAA expanding and basically now having a strong academically-strong contingent basically puts a hamper on a lot of East Coast conference expansion. And the Socon having a better basketball presence AND some strong academic institutions (Wofford, Furman, Samford, Mercer, VMI, and I guess the Citadel - but I don't know where they rank nationally) probably makes them a more attractive conference for schools such as William & Mary. But I think William & Mary is pretty happy where they are, as it was already stated before, they have a pretty decent travel footprint in their current arrangement, which would be superior to the Patriot or Southern conference in a hypothetical move.

The Socon, at least the old boys (maybe I'm becoming one of them) would LOVE Richmond and William & Mary and maybe even Elon back or Campbell. But we missed the boat, and the network effects of those teams being in their own conference already will make it hard for anyone to dislodge any of them. The only way I can see schools being inticed away from the status quo is the SoCon getting much better or much worse in basketball (making an invite to Richmond/W&M look inticing or for the latter causing instability with the status quo) or the CAA regressing in football. To be honest, I think the latter is the most likely (but that's not to say it's likely), but even if it happened, it's not as institutionally destabilizing as basketball regressing.

[DFW HOYA]

I embrace it. I have been to games away vs NDSU, Air Force, Army and going to Duke and a lot of nearby games and Easton games like vs Liberty. Im perfectly content with 5 OOCs.

The core PL members like the schedules because they are very regional and very familiar. The PL is not a place of change: if Holy Cross could play its entire schedule in New England, it would.

At the bottom of the league, Bucknell gets the likes of Duquesne, VMI and Marist to promote for regular opponents and Georgetown gets literally whatever is left, and it hasn't improved. Try selling Sacred Heart and Stonehill as must-see games to the fan base. A lot of Georgetown students have no idea where Stonehill even is.

[Go Green]

A lot of Georgetown students have no idea where Stonehill even is.

Here's hoping that the Hoya players know where Stonehill is.

Nothing more humiliating for a team than to believe that their opponents are beneath them... and then subsequently losing to them.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's hoping that the Hoya players know where Stonehill is.
Nothing more humiliating for a team than to believe that their opponents are beneath them... and then subsequently losing to them.

I'd say the same if they were playing Tarleton State. No one is "beneath" playing vs. Georgetown (figuratively or literally) but this is not the kind of game which engenders local or community interest. Ask yourself who shows up at Memorial Stadium when Dartmouth hosts Lindenwood.

[Go Green]

I'd say the same if they were playing Tarleton State. No one is "beneath" playing vs. Georgetown (figuratively or literally) but this is not the kind of game which engenders local or community interest. Ask yourself who shows up at Memorial Stadium when Dartmouth hosts Lindenwood.

I think we might get a good barometer of that question when Harvard hosts St. Thomas in a few weeks. I would not expect the average Harvard student and/or local casual fan to know where St. Thomas is--unless it literally says "St. Thomas (MN)" on the schedule. :)

[Go...gate]

The core PL members like the schedules because they are very regional and very familiar. The PL is not a place of change: if Holy Cross could play its entire schedule in New England, it would.

At the bottom of the league, Bucknell gets the likes of Duquesne, VMI and Marist to promote for regular opponents and Georgetown gets literally whatever is left, and it hasn't improved. Try selling Sacred Heart and Stonehill as must-see games to the fan base. A lot of Georgetown students have no idea where Stonehill even is.

Every PL school has struggled and ultimately recovered. GU can as well.