Smallest FCS School

[DFW HOYA]

What is the smallest FCS school by undergraduate enrollment?

[FUBeAR]

What is the smallest FCS school by undergraduate enrollment?Total or Total Male Enrollment, which, in more sane days, used to ‘get at’ the number of potential Football Players?

Back in FUBeAR’s day, Furman had the smallest male enrollment of D1 schools with VMI being the lowest total enrollment.

Wofford, now, with only 850 men, gotta be in the running. Furman has 915 men and dropping…now 61% women there. Could be Presbyterian…

….FOUND THIS….

https://www.sporcle.com/games/christianjd11/ncaa-fcs-schools-by-undergraduate-enrollment

SEEMS RECENT & FAIRLY ACCURATE…





Undergrad Enrollment
School


30,171
UC Davis


25,745
Kennesaw State


24,105
Sacramento State


21,731
Northern Arizona


19,685
Cal Poly


18,798
James Madison


18,378
Delaware


17,209
Towson


17,092
Illinois State


16,697
Stony Brook


15,311
Sam Houston State


15,038
Cornell


14,005
Missouri State


13,949
Portland State


12,596
Rhode Island


12,568
Albany


12,359
Montana State


11,960
New Hampshire


11,854
Weber State


10,448
Penn


10,013
North Carolina A&T


9,908
Eastern Kentucky


9,638
North Dakota State


9,498
Eastern Washington


9,248
Southeastern Louisiana


9,229
Fordham


9,228
East Tennessee State


9,224
Chattanooga


9,213
Stephen F Austin


8,934
Western Carolina


8,715
Youngstown State


8,228
Northern Iowa


8,105
Indiana State


8,060
Maine


8,046
Dayton


8,004
Tennessee Tech


7,971
South Dakota State


7,752
Northern Colorado


7,701
Columbia


7,634
Central Arkansas


7,628
North Dakota





Undergrad Enrollment
School


7,501
Prairie View A&M


7,253
Central Connecticut State


7,152
Southeast Missouri State


7,150
Southern Illinois


7,148
Harvard


7,097
Southern Utah


7,029
Georgetown


6,826
Brown


6,802
Florida A&M


6,773
Austin Peay


6,749
Idaho


6,528
Villanova


6,340
Northwestern State


6,269
Howard


6,190
Murray State


6,190
William & Mary


6,163
Montana


6,088
Yale


6,079
Elon


6,032
Texas Southern


5,966
Idaho State


5,942
Jacksonville State


5,761
San Diego


5,759
Morgan State


5,732
Duquesne


5,630
LIU


5,407
McNeese State


5,393
Morehead State


5,348
Sacred Heart


5,328
Princeton


5,243
Lamar


5,199
Marist


5,151
Western Illinois


5,107
Lehigh


5,012
North Carolina Central


4,975
Alabama A&M


4,975
Nicholls State


4,899
South Dakota


4,875
Southern


4,807
Tennessee State


4,754
UT Martin





Undergrad Enrollment
School


4,583
Norfolk State


4,509
Butler


4,401
Dartmouth


4,301
Monmouth


4,260
Mercer


4,126
Jackson State


4,093
Incarnate Word


3,990
Eastern Illinois


3,813
Grambling State


3,790
Delaware State


3,606
Bucknell


3,509
Samford


3,500
Robert Morris


3,491
Hampton


3,446
Alabama State


3,352
Abilene Christian


3,257
Campbell


3,205
Bryant


3,133
Stetson


3,004
Richmond


2,968
Colgate


2,940
Valparaiso


2,931
Holy Cross


2,830
Drake


2,729
Alcorn State University


2,708
Bethune–Cookman


2,688
The Citadel


2,633
Lafayette


2,603
Furman


2,558
Charleston Southern


2,161
Arkansas–Pine Bluff


2,067
Houston Baptist


1,958
South Carolina State


1,837
Davidson


1,709
Wofford


1,698
VMI


1,677
Wagner


1,632
Gardner–Webb


1,466
Saint Francis (PA)


1,419
Mississippi Valley State


1,041
Presbyterian

[aceinthehole]

What is the smallest FCS school by undergraduate enrollment?

I think it may be Wagner or Saint Francis.

[FUBeAR]

I think it may be Wagner or Saint Francis.
1,837 Davidson
1,709 Wofford
1,698 VMI
1,677 Wagner
1,632 Gardner–Webb
1,466 Saint Francis (PA)
1,419 Mississippi Valley State
1,041 Presbyterian

[Catatonic]

1,837 Davidson
1,709 Wofford
1,698 VMI
1,677 Wagner
1,632 Gardner–Webb
1,466 Saint Francis (PA)
1,419 Mississippi Valley State
1,041 Presbyterian

These numbers make Abilene Christian’s 3496 seem huge.

[Daytripper]

Not sure how old this data is, but it has been a loooong time since Sam Houston was at 15K enrollments. Upwards of 22K these days.

[FUBeAR]

Not sure how old this data is, but it has been a loooong time since Sam Houston was at 15K enrollments. Upwards of 22K these days.
Per SHSU - https://www.shsu.edu/dept/institutional-research/fbenrollment

Undergrad enrollment for 2021-2022 avg’d (across both semesters) 17,394

Would guess this is 2019 or 2020 data.

[DFW HOYA]

The numbers are not trending for Mississippi Valley State. 1,626 undergraduates this past spring, but less than 1,000 full time.

https://www.mvsu.edu/sites/default/files/spring_2022_enrollment_profile.pdf

[wapiti]

Total or Total Male Enrollment, which, in more sane days, used to ‘get at’ the number of potential Football Players?

Back in FUBeAR’s day, Furman had the smallest male enrollment of D1 schools with VMI being the lowest total enrollment.

Wofford, now, with only 850 men, gotta be in the running. Furman has 915 men and dropping…now 61% women there. Could be Presbyterian…

….FOUND THIS….

https://www.sporcle.com/games/christianjd11/ncaa-fcs-schools-by-undergraduate-enrollment

SEEMS RECENT & FAIRLY ACCURATE…





Undergrad Enrollment
School


30,171
UC Davis


25,745
Kennesaw State


24,105
Sacramento State


21,731
Northern Arizona


19,685
Cal Poly


18,798
James Madison


18,378
Delaware


17,209
Towson


17,092
Illinois State


16,697
Stony Brook


15,311
Sam Houston State


15,038
Cornell


14,005
Missouri State


13,949
Portland State


12,596
Rhode Island


12,568
Albany


12,359
Montana State


11,960
New Hampshire


11,854
Weber State


10,448
Penn


10,013
North Carolina A&T


9,908
Eastern Kentucky


9,638
North Dakota State


9,498
Eastern Washington


9,248
Southeastern Louisiana


9,229
Fordham


9,228
East Tennessee State


9,224
Chattanooga


9,213
Stephen F Austin


8,934
Western Carolina


8,715
Youngstown State


8,228
Northern Iowa


8,105
Indiana State


8,060
Maine


8,046
Dayton


8,004
Tennessee Tech


7,971
South Dakota State


7,752
Northern Colorado


7,701
Columbia


7,634
Central Arkansas


7,628
North Dakota





Undergrad Enrollment
School


7,501
Prairie View A&M


7,253
Central Connecticut State


7,152
Southeast Missouri State


7,150
Southern Illinois


7,148
Harvard


7,097
Southern Utah


7,029
Georgetown


6,826
Brown


6,802
Florida A&M


6,773
Austin Peay


6,749
Idaho


6,528
Villanova


6,340
Northwestern State


6,269
Howard


6,190
Murray State


6,190
William & Mary


6,163
Montana


6,088
Yale


6,079
Elon


6,032
Texas Southern


5,966
Idaho State


5,942
Jacksonville State


5,761
San Diego


5,759
Morgan State


5,732
Duquesne


5,630
LIU


5,407
McNeese State


5,393
Morehead State


5,348
Sacred Heart


5,328
Princeton


5,243
Lamar


5,199
Marist


5,151
Western Illinois


5,107
Lehigh


5,012
North Carolina Central


4,975
Alabama A&M


4,975
Nicholls State


4,899
South Dakota


4,875
Southern


4,807
Tennessee State


4,754
UT Martin





Undergrad Enrollment
School


4,583
Norfolk State


4,509
Butler


4,401
Dartmouth


4,301
Monmouth


4,260
Mercer


4,126
Jackson State


4,093
Incarnate Word


3,990
Eastern Illinois


3,813
Grambling State


3,790
Delaware State


3,606
Bucknell


3,509
Samford


3,500
Robert Morris


3,491
Hampton


3,446
Alabama State


3,352
Abilene Christian


3,257
Campbell


3,205
Bryant


3,133
Stetson


3,004
Richmond


2,968
Colgate


2,940
Valparaiso


2,931
Holy Cross


2,830
Drake


2,729
Alcorn State University


2,708
Bethune–Cookman


2,688
The Citadel


2,633
Lafayette


2,603
Furman


2,558
Charleston Southern


2,161
Arkansas–Pine Bluff


2,067
Houston Baptist


1,958
South Carolina State


1,837
Davidson


1,709
Wofford


1,698
VMI


1,677
Wagner


1,632
Gardner–Webb


1,466
Saint Francis (PA)


1,419
Mississippi Valley State


1,041
Presbyterian







This list seems old and outdated.
Montana State has 16,000 to 17,000

[ElCid]

Total or Total Male Enrollment, which, in more sane days, used to ‘get at’ the number of potential Football Players?

Back in FUBeAR’s day, Furman had the smallest male enrollment of D1 schools with VMI being the lowest total enrollment.

Wofford, now, with only 850 men, gotta be in the running. Furman has 915 men and dropping…now 61% women there. Could be Presbyterian…

….FOUND THIS….

https://www.sporcle.com/games/christianjd11/ncaa-fcs-schools-by-undergraduate-enrollment

SEEMS RECENT & FAIRLY ACCURATE…





Undergrad Enrollment
School


30,171
UC Davis


25,745
Kennesaw State


24,105
Sacramento State


21,731
Northern Arizona


19,685
Cal Poly


18,798
James Madison


18,378
Delaware


17,209
Towson


17,092
Illinois State


16,697
Stony Brook


15,311
Sam Houston State


15,038
Cornell


14,005
Missouri State


13,949
Portland State


12,596
Rhode Island


12,568
Albany


12,359
Montana State


11,960
New Hampshire


11,854
Weber State


10,448
Penn


10,013
North Carolina A&T


9,908
Eastern Kentucky


9,638
North Dakota State


9,498
Eastern Washington


9,248
Southeastern Louisiana


9,229
Fordham


9,228
East Tennessee State


9,224
Chattanooga


9,213
Stephen F Austin


8,934
Western Carolina


8,715
Youngstown State


8,228
Northern Iowa


8,105
Indiana State


8,060
Maine


8,046
Dayton


8,004
Tennessee Tech


7,971
South Dakota State


7,752
Northern Colorado


7,701
Columbia


7,634
Central Arkansas


7,628
North Dakota





Undergrad Enrollment
School


7,501
Prairie View A&M


7,253
Central Connecticut State


7,152
Southeast Missouri State


7,150
Southern Illinois


7,148
Harvard


7,097
Southern Utah


7,029
Georgetown


6,826
Brown


6,802
Florida A&M


6,773
Austin Peay


6,749
Idaho


6,528
Villanova


6,340
Northwestern State


6,269
Howard


6,190
Murray State


6,190
William & Mary


6,163
Montana


6,088
Yale


6,079
Elon


6,032
Texas Southern


5,966
Idaho State


5,942
Jacksonville State


5,761
San Diego


5,759
Morgan State


5,732
Duquesne


5,630
LIU


5,407
McNeese State


5,393
Morehead State


5,348
Sacred Heart


5,328
Princeton


5,243
Lamar


5,199
Marist


5,151
Western Illinois


5,107
Lehigh


5,012
North Carolina Central


4,975
Alabama A&M


4,975
Nicholls State


4,899
South Dakota


4,875
Southern


4,807
Tennessee State


4,754
UT Martin





Undergrad Enrollment
School


4,583
Norfolk State


4,509
Butler


4,401
Dartmouth


4,301
Monmouth


4,260
Mercer


4,126
Jackson State


4,093
Incarnate Word


3,990
Eastern Illinois


3,813
Grambling State


3,790
Delaware State


3,606
Bucknell


3,509
Samford


3,500
Robert Morris


3,491
Hampton


3,446
Alabama State


3,352
Abilene Christian


3,257
Campbell


3,205
Bryant


3,133
Stetson


3,004
Richmond


2,968
Colgate


2,940
Valparaiso


2,931
Holy Cross


2,830
Drake


2,729
Alcorn State University


2,708
Bethune–Cookman


2,688
The Citadel


2,633
Lafayette


2,603
Furman


2,558
Charleston Southern


2,161
Arkansas–Pine Bluff


2,067
Houston Baptist


1,958
South Carolina State


1,837
Davidson


1,709
Wofford


1,698
VMI


1,677
Wagner


1,632
Gardner–Webb


1,466
Saint Francis (PA)


1,419
Mississippi Valley State


1,041
Presbyterian






I think it's out of date by a little. They are moving numbers so it is hard to tell. Depends on source as well. But probably accurate for ranking even if not for specific numbers. Some of these were actually fairly surprising.

[ElCid]

I will add that the numbers can be misleading as well. Sure KSU may have 25k but how many are part time, night students, internet students, middle age commuters, etc that one, couldn't care less about football and provide no support, and two, don't add any potential depth since they aren't football candidates.

[Libertine]

PC's enrollment numbers have been trending the wrong way for years now. If they aren't the smallest FCS just now, give it a minute.

[Catatonic]

Not sure how old this data is, but it has been a loooong time since Sam Houston was at 15K enrollments. Upwards of 22K these days.

these numbers are for undergrad enrollment. The last figure I saw was 18000 undergrads at Sam/ 22k overall

[SFA 93]

SFA is around 12,000

[neverobeyed]

This list seems old and outdated.
Montana State has 16,000 to 17,000

Montana State's enrollment has exploded in the past decade or so.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Montana State's enrollment has exploded in the past decade or so.

So has the population of Bozeman! When I moved there in 2012 the area was just starting to get "popular". Now it's become Boulder North.....

[POD Knows]

NDSU was about 10,500 in 2020,

[WestCoastAggie]

I will add that the numbers can be misleading as well. Sure KSU may have 25k but how many are part time, night students, internet students, middle age commuters, etc that one, couldn't care less about football and provide no support, and two, don't add any potential depth since they aren't football candidates.

IIRC, they all pay a student athletics fee.

[TribeNomad1]

So has the population of Bozeman! When I moved there in 2012 the area was just starting to get "popular". Now it's become Boulder North.....

That cannot be a good thing.....

[neverobeyed]

NDSU was about 10,500 in 2020,

NDSU has been aggressively advertising in the Twin Cities the past ten - maybe twenty - years. I see billboards on 94 and 494 all the time, have even seen NDSU merch in a J.C. Penney store (yeah, those still exist). Great move for them as a ton of NDSU alum live in the Twin Cities. The reciprocity agreement between Minnesota and the Dakotas is a big plus.

[Panther88]

IIRC, they all pay a student athletics fee.

This ^^^^^^. Enrollment #s of > 20+K are astounding. It's the richer and well-funded should be G5ers vs us less populated and underfunded schools.

[POD Knows]

NDSU has been aggressively advertising in the Twin Cities the past ten - maybe twenty - years. I see billboards on 94 and 494 all the time, have even seen NDSU merch in a J.C. Penney store (yeah, those still exist). Great move for them as a ton of NDSU alum live in the Twin Cities. The reciprocity agreement between Minnesota and the Dakotas is a big plus.
Yea. I see signage and ads for both NDSU and UND in the Twin Cities. I actually thought the undergrad numbers for both UND and NDSU we higher than what I saw on the interwebs.

[dbackjon]

NAU is over 25K undergrad now.

[MSUBobcat]

So has the population of Bozeman! When I moved there in 2012 the area was just starting to get "popular". Now it's become Boulder North.....

Bozeman's population growth started well before 2012. When I started school there in 1998, N. 19th St was just a road to an interstate exit. The town basically ended around the Holiday station on Durston going north and a few blocks to the west. From 2000-2020, the city basically doubled from a small town of 27k to now over 56k.

Montana is becoming the next UT/ID. First Colorado exploded in the 70's and then again in the 90s. Then, people looking for mid-sized cities in the mountains moved to places like SLC and Boise. In 2021, Idaho was the fastest growing state (2.7%). Utah and Montana were tied for 2nd at 1.7%. Mountains and open spaces are very attractive these days.

[JacksFan40]

NDSU has been aggressively advertising in the Twin Cities the past ten - maybe twenty - years. I see billboards on 94 and 494 all the time, have even seen NDSU merch in a J.C. Penney store (yeah, those still exist). Great move for them as a ton of NDSU alum live in the Twin Cities. The reciprocity agreement between Minnesota and the Dakotas is a big plus.
Minnesota kids make up just as much of the student population at SDSU as South Dakota kids do, I’d imagine it’s about the same for the other Dakota schools, NDSU probably has even more due to being right on the state line.

SDSU also pulls a substantial amount from Nebraska and Iowa, not sure what the number would be though.

[JacksFan40]

Bozeman's population growth started well before 2012. When I started school there in 1998, N. 19th St was just a road to an interstate exit. The town basically ended around the Holiday station on Durston going north and a few blocks to the west. From 2000-2020, the city basically doubled from a small town of 27k to now over 56k.
Not saying Brookings will grow as much as Bozeman, but wouldn’t be surprised to see the population begin to jump substantially in the near future due to people moving into SD, specifically with Sioux Falls becoming too big and expensive causing people to look elsewhere in the state.

[MSUBobcat]

Not saying Brookings will grow as much as Bozeman, but wouldn’t be surprised to see the population begin to jump substantially in the near future due to people moving into SD, specifically with Sioux Falls becoming too big and expensive causing people to look elsewhere in the state.

Population booms are good and bad. Business is booming... available housing is not. The median price of a single family home is a staggering $860k and a townhouse is nearly $600k. (https://bozemanrealestate.group/blog/how-much-do-homes-cost-in-bozeman-right-now) Rental prices are extremely prohibitive. There are RV's/campers posting up on streets. The police eventually make them move on and the quasi-gypsy camps move to a new street to park on until forced to move again.

Edit: as an example, how would you like a less than 1,200 sq. ft. TRAILER HOUSE for $325k (https://bozemanrealestate.group/property/368748) xeekx As least it's on a permanent foundation, so a person can probably?? get a mortgage for it.

[POD Knows]

Population booms are good and bad. Business is booming... available housing is not. The median price of a single family home is a staggering $860k and a townhouse is nearly $600k. (https://bozemanrealestate.group/blog/how-much-do-homes-cost-in-bozeman-right-now) Rental prices are extremely prohibitive. There are RV's/campers posting up on streets. The police eventually make them move on and the quasi-gypsy camps move to a new street to park on until forced to move again.

Edit: as an example, how would you like a less than 1,200 sq. ft. TRAILER HOUSE for $325k (https://bozemanrealestate.group/property/368748) xeekx As least it's on a permanent foundation, so a person can probably?? get a mortgage for it.The average income in Bozeman is about 55K, Fargo is about 51K, the average price for a home in Bozeman is 850K or so, in Fargo it is 241K. Sorry, those numbers in Bozeman are unsustainable, there isn't anybody making enough money to afford those houses. It makes no sense from a financial standpoint.

[TribeNomad1]

The average income in Bozeman is about 55K, Fargo is about 51K, the average price for a home in Bozeman is 850K or so, in Fargo it is 241K. Sorry, those numbers in Bozeman are unsustainable, there isn't anybody making enough money to afford those houses. It makes no sense from a financial standpoint.

Damn John Dutton.

[JALMOND]

Bozeman's population growth started well before 2012. When I started school there in 1998, N. 19th St was just a road to an interstate exit. The town basically ended around the Holiday station on Durston going north and a few blocks to the west. From 2000-2020, the city basically doubled from a small town of 27k to now over 56k.


I hear that. Back in the day, N 19th was a quick and easy way to get from the freeway to campus. In 2013, though, taking the family from Helena to Billings, I thought the Museum of the Rockies would be a great stopoff. It took us almost an hour to get from the freeway to just the edge of campus.

I hardly recognize Bozeman anymore. Heck, I hardly recognize Billings anymore.:(

[taper]

Yea. I see signage and ads for both NDSU and UND in the Twin Cities. I actually thought the undergrad numbers for both UND and NDSU we higher than what I saw on the interwebs.
NDSU's total enrollment has been dropping since 2014. Part of that has been the former President's push to graduate in 4 years, but not all of it. While on time grad is overall a good thing, it does drop announced enrollment and if you're only looking at the numbers it's bad.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The average income in Bozeman is about 55K, Fargo is about 51K, the average price for a home in Bozeman is 850K or so, in Fargo it is 241K. Sorry, those numbers in Bozeman are unsustainable, there isn't anybody making enough money to afford those houses. It makes no sense from a financial standpoint.

I was priced out of Bozeman then priced out of nearby Belgrade which was why I moved back east. You can't have a "normal" job and sustain yourself out there right now. So many 20 and 30 year olds are forced to live together in order to afford the COL. It's out of control and a damn shame....

[POD Knows]

I was priced out of Bozeman then priced out of nearby Belgrade which was why I moved back east. You can't have a "normal" job and sustain yourself out there right now. So many 20 and 30 year olds are forced to live together in order to afford the COL. It's out of control and a damn shame....There has to be a correlation between means and price, none of this makes sense, Bozeman is not Silicon Valley, where you have people with real means and high income. When you add in "outer" Bozeman, the average cost of housing is over 1M. There are not enough high earning people to drive those prices that high.

And Billings, I remember back in the day when my company had a hard time getting people to even live in Billings because it was such a ****hole. I turned down a move to there back in the early 2000's. A guy I know recently sold his pretty modest 2500 square foot house with a couple acres out in the country for 600K, and that place didn't even have a well, he had to have water trucked in and he stored it in a tank. You can still get a decent house in Billings for 500K but Missoula or Bozeman, forget about it.

[dbackjon]

There has to be a correlation between means and price, none of this makes sense, Bozeman is not Silicon Valley, where you have people with real means and high income. When you add in "outer" Bozeman, the average cost of housing is over 1M. There are not enough high earning people to drive those prices that high.

And Billings, I remember back in the day when my company had a hard time getting people to even live in Billings because it was such a ****hole. I turned down a move to there back in the early 2000's. A guy I know recently sold his pretty modest 2500 square foot house with a couple acres out in the country for 600K, and that place didn't even have a well, he had to have water trucked in and he stored it in a tank. You can still get a decent house in Billings for 500K but Missoula or Bozeman, forget about it.

When you have work from home people making Silicon Valley money moving there, or retirees from places with much higher cost of living selling their houses for cash, buying a house, and still having enough to live on.

[POD Knows]

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/bozeman-mt/?compare=west-fargo-nd

This is an interesting comparison, check out the income difference between West Fargo, ND and Bozeman, I tried to grab a city in ND that was close in population to Bozeman. Also check out the median real estate values, I have no idea what you can buy in Bozeman for what they show here because it is probably a double wide trailer house.

[MSUBobcat]

I was priced out of Bozeman then priced out of nearby Belgrade which was why I moved back east. You can't have a "normal" job and sustain yourself out there right now. So many 20 and 30 year olds are forced to live together in order to afford the COL. It's out of control and a damn shame....

Yep. A while back a higher up position in the finance department of a major construction company was hiring. My former boss at a public accounting firm before I moved to a private company had a brother that worked there. It was going to be a decent pay increase, quite a bit into the 6 figures. I didn't even apply because it would have been a decrease in my standard of living. You have to accept a fair amount of "intangible pay", i.e. you're living in an extremely beautiful place with outdoor activities abound, in order to make it make sense. It's extremely unfortunate. I wish I had stayed there right out of college. Prices were reasonable back then and I'd probably have tripled the value in under 20 years. Billings is a nice place to live and much more reasonable, while still being a short jaunt to the Beartooth Mountains/Red Lodge.

[lionsrking2]

Southeastern Louisiana's undergrad enrollment is roughly 13,500.

[MSUBobcat]

There has to be a correlation between means and price, none of this makes sense, Bozeman is not Silicon Valley, where you have people with real means and high income. When you add in "outer" Bozeman, the average cost of housing is over 1M. There are not enough high earning people to drive those prices that high.

And Billings, I remember back in the day when my company had a hard time getting people to even live in Billings because it was such a ****hole. I turned down a move to there back in the early 2000's. A guy I know recently sold his pretty modest 2500 square foot house with a couple acres out in the country for 600K, and that place didn't even have a well, he had to have water trucked in and he stored it in a tank. You can still get a decent house in Billings for 500K but Missoula or Bozeman, forget about it.

$500k in Billings will get you a pretty nice home still, i.e. newly built 2500 sq ft 4 BR, 2-3 BA, 2-3 car garage with a nice sized yard in a preferred neighborhood. I also used to think Billings was a ****hole because I would only drive by on the interstate going between where my parents live in eastern MT and Bozeman and the 3 refineries you pass in a 20 mile stretch is really ugly. Once you get away from the interstate, where most of the city is, it's actually not a bad city.


When you have work from home people making Silicon Valley money moving there, or retirees from places with much higher cost of living selling their houses for cash, buying a house, and still having enough to live on.

^^^Exactly. Many of the people moving there don't give 2 ****s that it seems high compared to the median income because they sold their places in CA, WA, etc for at least as much as the place in Bozeman and either still work their higher income jobs remotely or are already retired and the house is paid in full. It just prices out the locals and working families. You can't even go 30 miles out to Three Forks/Manhattan and find a reasonable priced home. Livingston is about the same and you get to drive the Bozeman Pass as your commute, which will take years off your life driving that every day in the winter.

[NDSU1980]

Minnesota kids make up just as much of the student population at SDSU as South Dakota kids do, I’d imagine it’s about the same for the other Dakota schools, NDSU probably has even more due to being right on the state line.

SDSU also pulls a substantial amount from Nebraska and Iowa, not sure what the number would be though.
A couple years ago there were more Minnesota kids at NDSU than North Dakota kids. Probably still that way

[MSUBobcat]

https://datausa.io/profile/geo/bozeman-mt/?compare=west-fargo-nd

This is an interesting comparison, check out the income difference between West Fargo, ND and Bozeman, I tried to grab a city in ND that was close in population to Bozeman. Also check out the median real estate values, I have no idea what you can buy in Bozeman for what they show here because it is probably a double wide trailer house.

It appears Fargo would be a better comparison from an income and poverty rate standpoint. It's been many years since I lived in ND. Is West Fargo more of a bedroom community these days where people with higher incomes go to get away from the "city"? It seems to be the opposite of Bozeman, where the living IN Bozeman is more expensive and the outskirts get more affordable, whereas Fargo is more of a metro population that people live outside of and commute into. Obviously, there is a premium on property value due to the beauty of the area (I grew up in Mandan so I am more than qualified to compare the 2 areas). But you are correct that the median property value for Bozeman is highly inaccurate. I'm not even sure that's accurate for Billings.

[taper]

A couple years ago there were more Minnesota kids at NDSU than North Dakota kids. Probably still that way
https://www.ndsu.edu/data/enrollment/demographics/
NDSU publishes all kinds of enrollment data. As of 2019(most recent available) MN has a grand total of 2 more students than ND at NDSU. Considering Fargo sits on the MN border, they have reciprocity, and MN has around 8x the population that shouldn't be surprising.

When I was attending we also had the son of the SD governor. Everyone close to him knew that but I never saw any special treatment. It's possible that's the reason he went to NDSU instead of a SD uni. The gov graduated from SDSU fwiw.

[POD Knows]

It appears Fargo would be a better comparison from an income and poverty rate standpoint. It's been many years since I lived in ND. Is West Fargo more of a bedroom community these days where people with higher incomes go to get away from the "city"? It seems to be the opposite of Bozeman, where the living IN Bozeman is more expensive and the outskirts get more affordable, whereas Fargo is more of a metro population that people live outside of and commute into. Obviously, there is a premium on property value due to the beauty of the area (I grew up in Mandan so I am more than qualified to compare the 2 areas). But you are correct that the median property value for Bozeman is highly inaccurate. I'm not even sure that's accurate for Billings.Actually most of the business growth and vitality in the Fargo metro is in West Fargo. West Fargo used to be a ****hole back in the 60's and 70's and started to grow because Fargo is basically land locked.

I kind of dumped on Billings because back in the day it was kid of an oil town and sort of reminded me of Williston, ND. Billings is an eyesore from interstate but the rest of the town is pretty decent and it is close to a lot of cool stuff. Is that BBQ joint by that gas station on the east side still there. Can't remember the name of the place but ate there a few times and it was pretty decent.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yep. A while back a higher up position in the finance department of a major construction company was hiring. My former boss at a public accounting firm before I moved to a private company had a brother that worked there. It was going to be a decent pay increase, quite a bit into the 6 figures. I didn't even apply because it would have been a decrease in my standard of living. You have to accept a fair amount of "intangible pay", i.e. you're living in an extremely beautiful place with outdoor activities abound, in order to make it make sense. It's extremely unfortunate. I wish I had stayed there right out of college. Prices were reasonable back then and I'd probably have tripled the value in under 20 years. Billings is a nice place to live and much more reasonable, while still being a short jaunt to the Beartooth Mountains/Red Lodge.

If I were to ever move back out there, and I would absolutely love to (!), Billings is likely where I would settle. I like the area "above the rim" or the areas west of the city out near Yellowstone Golf Club. As your mentioned, Billings is still in close proximity to all the scenic areas, still have great views of the mountains off in the distance and is also closer to the populated areas of Wyoming.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Actually most of the business growth and vitality in the Fargo metro is in West Fargo. West Fargo used to be a ****hole back in the 60's and 70's and started to grow because Fargo is basically land locked.

I kind of dumped on Billings because back in the day it was kid of an oil town and sort of reminded me of Williston, ND. Billings is an eyesore from interstate but the rest of the town is pretty decent and it is close to a lot of cool stuff. Is that BBQ joint by that gas station on the east side still there. Can't remember the name of the place but ate there a few times and it was pretty decent.

I've come to love Fargo and Grand Forks! I think both are extremely livable cities IF you can handle the cold. With that said, even the cost of living in Grand Forks has gone up despite a tremendous amount of development south of town as you near Grand Forks Country Club. I need to get back to both cities! I've been itching to visit GF in the winter to hit up a couple of hockey games!

Manhattan, KS is another college town with a rapidly growing population. The houses being built near Colbert Hills rivals those at Black Bull in Bozeman.

[taper]

Actually most of the business growth and vitality in the Fargo metro is in West Fargo. West Fargo used to be a ****hole back in the 60's and 70's and started to grow because Fargo is basically land locked.

I kind of dumped on Billings because back in the day it was kid of an oil town and sort of reminded me of Williston, ND. Billings is an eyesore from interstate but the rest of the town is pretty decent and it is close to a lot of cool stuff. Is that BBQ joint by that gas station on the east side still there. Can't remember the name of the place but ate there a few times and it was pretty decent.
I would not agree with the West Fargo comment. The south side of Fargo has had massive expansion and downtown is rapidly renovating. For those not local Fargo and West Fargo are separate cities in the same metro area. WF is certainly growing but south Fargo is a whole different story. Petro and Fleet Farm opened in the late 90s and at the time were considered in the middle of nowhere. Now there's several miles of solid development to their south.

[POD Knows]

I've come to love Fargo and Grand Forks! I think both are extremely livable cities IF you can handle the cold. With that said, even the cost of living in Grand Forks has gone up despite a tremendous amount of development south of town as you near Grand Forks Country Club. I need to get back to both cities! I've been itching to visit GF in the winter to hit up a couple of hockey games!

Manhattan, KS is another college town with a rapidly growing population. The houses being built near Colbert Hills rivals those at Black Bull in Bozeman.Poverty rate in Grand Forks is about 18%, it is 6.5% in West Fargo and 13% or so in Fargo. Real Estate is high in Grand Forks, home ownership % is about 44% and it is 66% in West Fargo, West Fargo feels a lot more affluent than GF and both have about the same home values. Median income in GF is about 50K and mid 80's in WF with the same basic real estate values.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Poverty rate in Grand Forks is about 18%, it is 6.5% in West Fargo and 13% or so in Fargo. Real Estate is high in Grand Forks, home ownership % is about 44% and it is 66% in West Fargo, West Fargo feels a lot more affluent than GF and both have about the same home values. Median income in GF is about 50K and mid 80's in WF with the same basic real estate values.

The northern and western (especially northern) parts of Grand Forks are a little rough but the post-flood areas along the river and south of downtown are really nice. There's some beautiful neighborhoods near Lincoln Park. The newly developed areas south of 32nd street are all rather "upscale". Grand Forks also has a really nice combined downtown area with East Grand Forks in large part to the 1997 flood.

I've always wondered if those little "bedroom" towns between GF and Fargo will ever reach the point where there's some semblance of an I-29 population corridor between the two cities.

I don't think its a coincidence that Montana State, NDSU and UND are thriving institutions while several of the public schools here in the Northeast are seeing declining enrollments. It's a damn good thing the PSAC schools are not caught up in the D1 circus right now given the leadership/financial hiccups those colleges have dealt with.

[POD Knows]

I would not agree with the West Fargo comment. The south side of Fargo has had massive expansion and downtown is rapidly renovating. For those not local Fargo and West Fargo are separate cities in the same metro area. WF is certainly growing but south Fargo is a whole different story. Petro and Fleet Farm opened in the late 90s and at the time were considered in the middle of nowhere. Now there's several miles of solid development to their south.The population of Fargo has grown by 20% since 2010, WF has grown 52%. There is a lot of growth to the south for Fargo but WF is growing south as well. Both cities have great economies and the downtown area of fargo is a lot nicer now than it was a few decades back.

I took a look at the maps and for some reason I thought Fargo basically ended at 45th Ave but they have annexed all the way over to 9th Ave in WF south of I 94. Lots of business growth there so I will walk back my earlier statement. I would have bet money that the Osgood section was WF, it is Fargo.

Thanks for the correction and feedback

[ST_Lawson]

Poverty rate in Grand Forks is about 18%, it is 6.5% in West Fargo and 13% or so in Fargo. Real Estate is high in Grand Forks, home ownership % is about 44% and it is 66% in West Fargo, West Fargo feels a lot more affluent than GF and both have about the same home values. Median income in GF is about 50K and mid 80's in WF with the same basic real estate values.

I've found that when looking at college towns, "poverty rate" can be a bit misleading. The percentage of the total population of the town that are college students can really swing it one way or the other. University with 10k students in a town of 200k...not much of an impact. University of 10k students in a town of 20k...big impact. Many students are technically classified as under the poverty line, and if nearly half of the town is college students, then the poverty rate is going to look a lot higher than you would expect for that kind of town.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The population of Fargo has grown by 20% since 2010, WF has grown 52%. There is a lot of growth to the south for Fargo but WF is growing south as well. Both cities have great economies and the downtown area of fargo is a lot nicer now than it was a few decades back.

I took a look at the maps and for some reason I thought Fargo basically ended at 45th Ave but they have annexed all the way over to 9th Ave in WF south of I 94. Lots of business growth there so I will walk back my earlier statement. I would have bet money that the Osgood section was WF, it is Fargo.

Thanks for the correction and feedback

I really like Fargo with one caveat, the epic fail that is the garbage dump. The fact it has become part of the town creates a serious odor problem as well as legitimate health; especially for those who live and work within close proximity. I have to believe various government agencies have discussed possible long term solutions?

For schools with small or declining enrollment, I would love to know the variables the institutions consider as it relates to themselves as well as the impact of the community they reside in. MVSU appears to have a mess on their hands. The really small privates with modest or substandard in endowments could be/are on precarious ground given the change in social views on undergrad ROI.

[taper]

I really like Fargo with one caveat, the epic fail that is the garbage dump. The fact it has become part of the town creates a serious odor problem as well as legitimate health; especially for those who live and work within close proximity. I have to believe various government agencies have discussed possible long term solutions?

For schools with small or declining enrollment, I would love to know the variables the institutions consider as it relates to themselves as well as the impact of the community they reside in. MVSU appears to have a mess on their hands. The really small privates with modest or substandard in endowments could be/are on precarious ground given the change in social views on undergrad ROI.
How long has it been since you've been to Fargo? They installed a methane capture and biofuel system awhile back that helped a lot. A dump in the middle of a metro certainly isn't ideal, but to be fair it was another thing in the middle of nowhere when originally built. Surrounding area is almost all industrial. I used to work in that area and most of the time the dump wasn't an issue at all. Got more smell off the NDSU sheep barns.

[ElCid]

IIRC, they all pay a student athletics fee.

Eh, money ain't always the most important factor, contrary to what some people think.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

How long has it been since you've been to Fargo? They installed a methane capture and biofuel system awhile back that helped a lot. A dump in the middle of a metro certainly isn't ideal, but to be fair it was another thing in the middle of nowhere when originally built. Surrounding area is almost all industrial. I used to work in that area and most of the time the dump wasn't an issue at all. Got more smell off the NDSU sheep barns.

The last significant time spent in Fargo was November 2019 when I came out for the NDSU vs South Dakota game. Even with temps in the 40s the smell was noticeable at my hotel. With that said, I still love Fargo and the area in general. But having a garbage dump in the middle of a modestly sized but still prominent city is less than ideal.

Looking at the enrollment numbers (knowing they're "fluid")
- I am shocked MSU is twice the size of Montana
- WIU at 5,100 seems really low? IIRC, wasn't the enrollment around 8k in the early 2000s? Given my growing ties to the Chicago area I have grown to appreciate the institution...
- Princeton "feels" like a school with about 20k students. The fact there's only 5,300 undergrads hints at major "facility" overkill when you consider the size and scope of the campus. Then again, what are you suppose to do with all that money?
- Marist at 5,200 shocked me! I honestly thought it was about the same size as Colgate and Lafayette
- Casual observation, there seems to be a pretty even split between public and private institutions in FCS. IMO, that's a good thing. I wish the PL would find a way to incorporate two into the conference. Delaware and W&M? But the PL rules suck so no.....

I'll be at Cornell tomorrow. That campus is massive! It's a Big 10 school masquerading as an Ivy. Especially when you check out their AG research area.....

[DFW HOYA]

I'll be at Cornell tomorrow. That campus is massive! It's a Big 10 school masquerading as an Ivy. Especially when you check out their AG research area.....

Imagine the stir if the B10 added Cornell? Add (more than a few) scholarships, a second crescent at Schoellkopf and they're ready to go. xlolx

https://cornellbigred.com/images/2015/8/17//Schoellkopf_Crowd_Michigan.jpg

[ST_Lawson]

Looking at the enrollment numbers (knowing they're "fluid")
...
- WIU at 5,100 seems really low? IIRC, wasn't the enrollment around 8k in the early 2000s? Given my growing ties to the Chicago area I have grown to appreciate the institution...
...

I'll be at Cornell tomorrow. That campus is massive! It's a Big 10 school masquerading as an Ivy. Especially when you check out their AG research area.....

In 2006, WIU had 11,334 undergrads and 2,268 grads for a total of 13,602 students. If you go back to the '70s, when the baby boomers were in college and a lot of students were attending school on military grants or going to college to avoid the draft, WIU was up in the 16k total students range, but 2006 was the most recent "high point". We declined slowly for a while, until the Illinois budget crisis hit and eroded the confidence in many state institutions, which really caused enrollment to drop off a cliff.
It looks like 2022 will be up from last year a bit, but we won't have those official numbers for ~2 weeks. In 2021, WIU had 5,394 undergrads and 2,061 grads for a total of 7,455 students.

As for Cornell, it looks like they have around 24k total students, which puts them a bit higher than Northwestern and just a bit below Nebraska. Plus, their endowment is at $7.23 billion, which is more than any school in the Big 10 except Michigan and Northwestern. Really, looking at all the Ivy League schools, the smallest endowment is Brown at $4.7 billion, which is higher than any school in the Big 10 except Michigan, Northwestern, Ohio State, or Minnesota. I'd say that if Cornell wanted to, they could absolutely be "on-par" with schools like Northwestern, Stanford, or Notre Dame...playing FBS-level football at a high level...although that would probably require the desire of the entire Ivy League to go that route, and considering they don't want to even participate in playoffs, I don't see that happening.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Imagine the stir if the B10 added Cornell? Add (more than a few) scholarships, a second crescent at Schoellkopf and they're ready to go. xlolx

https://cornellbigred.com/images/2015/8/17//Schoellkopf_Crowd_Michigan.jpg

It would fit in with Northwestern's Ryan Field! Embrace the majestic beauty of a well crafted crescent!
https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/22915293/20210922/023102/styles/patch_image/public/ryan-field-november-0344___22132002139.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

In 2006, WIU had 11,334 undergrads and 2,268 grads for a total of 13,602 students. If you go back to the '70s, when the baby boomers were in college and a lot of students were attending school on military grants or going to college to avoid the draft, WIU was up in the 16k total students range, but 2006 was the most recent "high point". We declined slowly for a while, until the Illinois budget crisis hit and eroded the confidence in many state institutions, which really caused enrollment to drop off a cliff.
It looks like 2022 will be up from last year a bit, but we won't have those official numbers for ~2 weeks. In 2021, WIU had 5,394 undergrads and 2,061 grads for a total of 7,455 students.

As for Cornell, it looks like they have around 24k total students, which puts them a bit higher than Northwestern and just a bit below Nebraska. Plus, their endowment is at $7.23 billion, which is more than any school in the Big 10 except Michigan and Northwestern. Really, looking at all the Ivy League schools, the smallest endowment is Brown at $4.7 billion, which is higher than any school in the Big 10 except Michigan, Northwestern, Ohio State, or Minnesota. I'd say that if Cornell wanted to, they could absolutely be "on-par" with schools like Northwestern, Stanford, or Notre Dame...playing FBS-level football at a high level...although that would probably require the desire of the entire Ivy League to go that route, and considering they don't want to even participate in playoffs, I don't see that happening.

The enrollment drop off at WIU is staggering. I had no idea there were over 11k undergrads at one point! With that much population erosion some level of institutional "blight" occurs. Hopefully, (perhaps wishful thinking?) the state will put the right pieces in place to gain back 60% of the lost undergrad population? Do they have any sort of recruitment incentives for Iowa and Missouri applicants?

The administrative/leadership structure of Cornell makes it extremely unique relative to the other Ivies. Based on mostly peripheral knowledge (bit of "local" info), it does fit the Big 10 model for the purpose of conversation. I saw they had approximately 67,000 applicants for the class for 2025 and accepted 8.7%. Based on one stated figure, that number is now down to 6.9%. Absurd for a school with that many undergrads.....

[Go...gate]

I have always liked Wagner, though their stadium is pretty small. I cannot help noticing, however, that they infrequently find their way on to the schedules of the Ivy or Patriot League schools, even though they are in the footprint of both conferences.

[ST_Lawson]

The enrollment drop off at WIU is staggering. I had no idea there were over 11k undergrads at one point! With that much population erosion some level of institutional "blight" occurs. Hopefully, (perhaps wishful thinking?) the state will put the right pieces in place to gain back 60% of the lost undergrad population? Do they have any sort of recruitment incentives for Iowa and Missouri applicants?

The new president's goal is to get back up to 10k students by the end of the decade, and he's put some of the pieces in place to do that.

Without getting into it too deep (or too politically), starting in 2002, funding from the state began to decline every year. From 2003 to 2015, WIU lost an average of 1.46% of students every year. This was not unique to WIU, as the same numbers for the other "directional" schools for the same timeframe were: EIU -1.98%, NIU -1.62%, SIU-C -1.78%, as well as Chicago State's -2.95%. For the most part, the only schools "immune" to this trend were the U of I system and ISU.

Then, in 2015, the Illinois Budget Impasse/Crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Budget_Impasse) hit, which absolutely destroyed confidence in state institutions. From 2016-2019, WIU lost an annual average of 8.94%, SIU-C dropped 9.3%, NIU dropped 4.69%, Chicago State dropped 10.65%, and even UIS (U of I at Springfield) got hit, dropping 5.61%. EIU changed the way they were calculating their undergrad students, counting any HS student that was taking college classes as "undergrads", which meant their numbers only said they lost 1.85% annually during that timeframe.

Once the budget impasse was over and the state was just starting to recover...COVID hit. In 2020 and 2021, those same institutions lost 1.11% (WIU), 1.85% (SIU-C), 1.11% (NIU), 5.85% (CSU). Now, I will say that the numbers are, at this point, looking like WIU will have a small increase in total students over last year, but we won't know that for sure for ~2 weeks.

Currently, WIU receives pretty close to the exact same amount of funding from the state that we did in the 2000-2002 range. However, that's in actual dollars; if you adjust for inflation, we're getting about 58% of what we received from the state at that time. We have also had almost zero capital investment to build anything new or make significant improvements to existing buildings. To make up for that deficit, we've had a couple of rounds of layoffs and early retirement incentives, as well as taking down two dorm buildings, taking three others "offline" (which worked out well during COVID because then we had empty dorm buildings that could be used for quarantine sites), and have taken one academic building offline. And, we have, unfortunately, had to raise our tuition rates somewhat.

And to get to your point about recruitment incentives, we do hit eastern Iowa and Missouri pretty hard with our recruiting. We also offer "in-state" tuition for any student from any state in the US...not just our neighboring states. A student from California, Texas, or Maine pays the same tuition as someone from Illinois. We do also have some scholarships for students from the Chicago and St. Louis Metro areas, as well as for students from the western illinois region.

[WestCoastAggie]

A&T is estimated to enroll 13,500 students this Fall semester. Final enrollment numbers will be released in September.

[neverobeyed]

And to get to your point about recruitment incentives, we do hit eastern Iowa and Missouri pretty hard with our recruiting. We also offer "in-state" tuition for any student from any state in the US...not just our neighboring states. A student from California, Texas, or Maine pays the same tuition as someone from Illinois. We do also have some scholarships for students from the Chicago and St. Louis Metro areas, as well as for students from the western illinois region.

I wish UNI could offer in-state tuition beyond current reciprocity agreements. I think they would pull well from Minnesota and Illinois, perhaps Wisconsin. The other two Regents schools in Iowa - Iowa and Iowa State - make serious money charging out-of-state tuition to folks and UNI has always been made up of mostly in-state kids (90+ percent).

UNI's undergrad enrollment hit its lowest level since 1968 in 2019 or 2020 (I can't remember which) at below 9,000. They are projecting growth over the next few years (https://www.northerniowan.com/16028/showcase/uni-enrollment-projected-to-increase-within-5-years/). UNI was really kneecapped by the decisions of President Allen (2006-13). He gutted the school and was a puppet for the Regents.

[UAalum72]

Imagine the stir if the B10 added Cornell? Add (more than a few) scholarships, a second crescent at Schoellkopf and they're ready to go. xlolx

Well they've made a start, by already tearing down the (condemned) away side seats. Last time I was there the concrete in the Crescent didn't look so hot either.

Cornell is also the Land Grant school for New York, so should fit in with the B1G.

[MSUBobcat]

The last significant time spent in Fargo was November 2019 when I came out for the NDSU vs South Dakota game. Even with temps in the 40s the smell was noticeable at my hotel. With that said, I still love Fargo and the area in general. But having a garbage dump in the middle of a modestly sized but still prominent city is less than ideal.

Looking at the enrollment numbers (knowing they're "fluid")
- I am shocked MSU is twice the size of Montana
- WIU at 5,100 seems really low? IIRC, wasn't the enrollment around 8k in the early 2000s? Given my growing ties to the Chicago area I have grown to appreciate the institution...
- Princeton "feels" like a school with about 20k students. The fact there's only 5,300 undergrads hints at major "facility" overkill when you consider the size and scope of the campus. Then again, what are you suppose to do with all that money?
- Marist at 5,200 shocked me! I honestly thought it was about the same size as Colgate and Lafayette
- Casual observation, there seems to be a pretty even split between public and private institutions in FCS. IMO, that's a good thing. I wish the PL would find a way to incorporate two into the conference. Delaware and W&M? But the PL rules suck so no.....

I'll be at Cornell tomorrow. That campus is massive! It's a Big 10 school masquerading as an Ivy. Especially when you check out their AG research area.....

Back in my day.... (can't believe we're around 20 years since my college days), UM and MSU were pretty similar in size and if I had to guess, I think UM was slightly higher enrollment. MSU knocked their president search out of the park with Waded Cruzado's hiring in 2010. MSU's enrollment has gone up about 25% since then and it seems like a new building is opened every year. I barely recognize campus anymore. When I saw UM's numbers in FUBeAR's chart, I thought it had to be a mistake. IMO, UM's attendance suffered greatly from the allegations/scandals of the 2010's and is just starting to turn it around and growing again. I'm far from an expert on their situation however, so perhaps a Griz fan can opine on the matter.

FYI, I believe the BBQ joint in billings you referred to is probably Blue's BBQ and it is pretty good and still around. xthumbsupx

[POD Knows]

Back in my day.... (can't believe we're around 20 years since my college days), UM and MSU were pretty similar in size and if I had to guess, I think UM was slightly higher enrollment. MSU knocked their president search out of the park with Waded Cruzado's hiring in 2010. MSU's enrollment has gone up about 25% since then and it seems like a new building is opened every year. I barely recognize campus anymore. When I saw UM's numbers in FUBeAR's chart, I thought it had to be a mistake. IMO, UM's attendance suffered greatly from the allegations/scandals of the 2010's and is just starting to turn it around and growing again. I'm far from an expert on their situation however, so perhaps a Griz fan can opine on the matter.

FYI, I believe the BBQ joint in billings you referred to is probably Blue's BBQ and it is pretty good and still around. xthumbsupxI think that was me that asked about the BBQ joint and that is the place, thanks

[clenz]

I wish UNI could offer in-state tuition beyond current reciprocity agreements. I think they would pull well from Minnesota and Illinois, perhaps Wisconsin. The other two Regents schools in Iowa - Iowa and Iowa State - make serious money charging out-of-state tuition to folks and UNI has always been made up of mostly in-state kids (90+ percent).

UNI's undergrad enrollment hit its lowest level since 1968 in 2019 or 2020 (I can't remember which) at below 9,000. They are projecting growth over the next few years (https://www.northerniowan.com/16028/showcase/uni-enrollment-projected-to-increase-within-5-years/). UNI was really kneecapped by the decisions of President Allen (2006-13). He gutted the school and was a puppet for the Regents.
President Koob is who knee capped the university. Allen was dealt a **** hand from the start and had to work with it.

UNI was growing at record pace and President Koob was not a fan of that. He through 15,000 students was WAY too many. Rather than add housing for students and add staff he cut admissions back dramatically, which would never be undone especially with the 08 recession happening just 2 years after he left his tenure. By the time that started to lift the BOR had used the falling enrollment plus the recession as a reason to start to cut more funding from UNI.

The record low enrollment is a bit misleading, though still accurate. Covid played a heavy part of that. Every university was seeing enrollment declines and covid made it worse. As you point out, UNI is already tracking back up, and the current president is working to grow enrollment again. As I was doing the next part I noticed Iowa State lost over 6000 students (roughly 18% of their enrollment) between 2016 and 2021

There are 2 majors road blocks

1. Reciprocity. As you mentioned Iowa (Chicago kids) and Iowa State (Minnesota, Illinois and then international from China and India are more than any other state) make way too damn much money. Thus the state BOR refuses to add reciprocity. Reciprocity, in the eyes of the BOR, is an all or nothing thing. This kills UNI's recruitment from outside the state of Iowa beacuse why would someone from Illinois pay 25k a year to go to UNI when they have 4759827435 colleges within their own state to go to for cheaper? Allowing UNI to offer regionally reciprocity with Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois and Missouri would be a massive help to UNI. It would attract more students, and it would help with the athletics budget issue because our scholarship budget is cut damn near in half given that Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri make up probably 95+% of our athletic scholarships. However, the BOR won't let UNI do so because it might take 100 students away from Iowa or Iowa State, and we can't have that.

2. Program offerings and the BOR rule regarding duplication of majors and emphasis on majors. For the longest time each school in Iowa had "it's thing" and to protect that the BOR had rules in place that would prevent the other schools from investing too heavily in the other schools things as it would potentially detract from those schools. Iowa was the law/med school. Iowa State was the Ag/Vet and Engineering school and UNI was the education and business/accounting school. The other schools could offer those, but they weren't to be the "focus" of those school. The three schools were to serve difference purposes as far as education went. However, in the last decade that has changed to the detriment of UNI. The state has allowed, even encouraged, Iowa and Iowa State to invest heavily in the education and business/accounting programs. Add grad programs in them. Iowa has done so heavily with their Tippie Business School. This, of course, has hurt UNI. Meanwhile UNI has asked if this means they can add/grow programs like computer science related majors a few smaller engineering majors, expand the biology department to add some pre-med classes. They have been told no, and actually had the state BOR use President Allen to cut some of those around 2011-2013. President Allen, wrongly, gets **** on for a lot things that were so far beyond his control. He didn't start the enrollment issues, and he came in right as the recession of 08 hit. The BOR then forced him to cut a ton of programs, including the lab school that UNI's ed program was using for decades. It was 100% the right move but the optics of it were horrible and people took all their frustrations out on him, the faculty hit him with a no confidence vote and he then retired. Oh, and he was diagnosed with cancer and went through chemo while going through all of that as president at UNI.

"He gutted the school"? How. He removed the major/certifications for a number of programs, yes. Do you know the number of students those cuts actually impacted? It was an insignificant amount. The headlines were "Allen cuts 25% of programs". The programs cut?

German and French majors/minors/certificates - which was less than 100 students. The courses were/are still offered at UNI but by removing the majors it required less money to be spent to maintain the programs.
Some small, niche, geology majors/minors/certificates - which was 25 total students. The earth sciences departmet and geology still exist at UNI.
World religion as a minor - 40 total students
Philosophy major/minor - could argue this could be worth keeping. However, there were 50 total students enrolled at UNI with a declared major/minor in philosophy.
Physics major/minor - could argue this is something that could/should have been kept. However, there was 70 total students enrolled at UNI with a decaled physics major/minor.

The majors/minors removed was less than 300 students. Based on enrollment at the time it was less than 2.5% of all students.

You want to get into the price lab debate? It was 10000% the right move. The physical building of Price Lab was a disaster. It was in need of roughly 50-75 million dollars in repairs on top of then continuing the upgrades and maintenance. It was built and then basically ignored by everyone, as far as upkeep went, from the day it opened until the day it was demolished. There was also a fair amount coming out that the strategies being tested there, outcomes of the students, etc. were lagging behind outcomes from schools across the state. Student teachers that went out and did their student teaching outside of Price Lab were showing better outcomes than those who used Price Lab. While Price started with a great idea, great intentions, and as a great selling point it quickly lost it's way and became a gigantic money sink that the academics at UNI refused to let go of. UNI's education programs, and graduate degrees, are every bit as good, if not better, now than they were a decade ago when Price Lab was still around. Why? Because hundreds of thousands of dollars a year no longer needs to go to support a laboratory school that had less than 400 kids in it grades K-12 combined.

The irony, of course, in in that is the BOR is telling UNI it needs to find ways to grow enrollment and retain more students. Yet it actively takes steps to make sure UNI can't grow. It has prevented UNI from growing majors that are relevant in 2022 while enabling Iowa and Iowa State to poach students from UNI's strongest/most known programs.

[neverobeyed]

I thought it was Allen who decided that growth had to stop. At the time, UNI had been on a upward trend over many years, and as you write setting records when Koob decided to end it.

[clenz]

I thought it was Allen who decided that growth had to stop. At the time, UNI had been on a upward trend over many years, and as you write setting records when Koob decided to end it.
The final fall enrollments of Koob's tenure - including the fall after his reitrement, as it was still his class that was accepted as he was president. Koob was president 1995-May 2006




1998
13,329


1999
13,553


2000
13,774


2001
14,070


2002
13,926


2003
13,441


2004
12,824


2005
12,513


2006
12,260





He saw UNI was pacing towards 15K by 2004 and he wanted nothing to do with it. He thought UNI was going to be too large. His "idea" number was 10-12k. UNI circa early 00s wasn't built to hold 15K, and rather than work with the BOR to continue growing and making the university larger he put admission policies in place that cut admissions drastically. I remember applying to UNI - HS class of 2006) and the admission requirements were more stringent than any other school I looked at - including a ton of private schools - and more strict than either Iowa or Iowa State.


Allen tried his best reverse the downward trend, and did for a while



2008
12,908


2009
13,080


2010
13,201


2011
13,168


2012
12,273


2013
12,159



Notice how through the 2011/2012 school year Ben Allen had enrollment going back up. It was up over 1000 students from the day he took office. Then the **** happened with the Price Lab school and cutting those tiny majors, who were allowed to finish their degrees at UNI but no new students were going to be admitted to the programs. All of a sudden the university revolted against him, ran an insanely strong smear campaign against him and look what happened. He did nothing to deserve the hit on enrollment, and the fact it apparently "shrank" during his time at UNI if you include the fall after his final full year as it was technically "his admission" class. The faculty and national PR firm they hired ran the most effective smear campaign possible using half truths the most effective way possible.

William Rudd came in from 2013-2016 and was basically a stop gap that managed to maintain the level it was at, mostly



2014
11,928


2015
11,981


2016
11,905


2017
10,005




Nook has been here since 2017 started and has seen about 2k enrollment loss, though Covid losses across the nation have schools scrambling to figure **** out. As I said Iowa State is down 18% (over 6,000 students) since 2016. UNI is down about 2,000 - so basically the same percentage. It's not a UNI enrollment issue, it's a COVID and how society has shifted related issue. I'll be interested to see what the enrollment for this fall is. If it isn't up, we might have a problem. I have had a lot of faith in Nook. He speaks a good game, but now is his time to show he can get the BOR to do what we need and is able to actually get things going the right way

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

President Koob is who knee capped the university. Allen was dealt a **** hand from the start and had to work with it.

UNI was growing at record pace and President Koob was not a fan of that. He through 15,000 students was WAY too many. Rather than add housing for students and add staff he cut admissions back dramatically, which would never be undone especially with the 08 recession happening just 2 years after he left his tenure. By the time that started to lift the BOR had used the falling enrollment plus the recession as a reason to start to cut more funding from UNI.

The record low enrollment is a bit misleading, though still accurate. Covid played a heavy part of that. Every university was seeing enrollment declines and covid made it worse. As you point out, UNI is already tracking back up, and the current president is working to grow enrollment again. As I was doing the next part I noticed Iowa State lost over 6000 students (roughly 18% of their enrollment) between 2016 and 2021

There are 2 majors road blocks

1. Reciprocity. As you mentioned Iowa (Chicago kids) and Iowa State (Minnesota, Illinois and then international from China and India are more than any other state) make way too damn much money. Thus the state BOR refuses to add reciprocity. Reciprocity, in the eyes of the BOR, is an all or nothing thing. This kills UNI's recruitment from outside the state of Iowa beacuse why would someone from Illinois pay 25k a year to go to UNI when they have 4759827435 colleges within their own state to go to for cheaper? Allowing UNI to offer regionally reciprocity with Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois and Missouri would be a massive help to UNI. It would attract more students, and it would help with the athletics budget issue because our scholarship budget is cut damn near in half given that Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Missouri make up probably 95+% of our athletic scholarships. However, the BOR won't let UNI do so because it might take 100 students away from Iowa or Iowa State, and we can't have that.

2. Program offerings and the BOR rule regarding duplication of majors and emphasis on majors. For the longest time each school in Iowa had "it's thing" and to protect that the BOR had rules in place that would prevent the other schools from investing too heavily in the other schools things as it would potentially detract from those schools. Iowa was the law/med school. Iowa State was the Ag/Vet and Engineering school and UNI was the education and business/accounting school. The other schools could offer those, but they weren't to be the "focus" of those school. The three schools were to serve difference purposes as far as education went. However, in the last decade that has changed to the detriment of UNI. The state has allowed, even encouraged, Iowa and Iowa State to invest heavily in the education and business/accounting programs. Add grad programs in them. Iowa has done so heavily with their Tippie Business School. This, of course, has hurt UNI. Meanwhile UNI has asked if this means they can add/grow programs like computer science related majors a few smaller engineering majors, expand the biology department to add some pre-med classes. They have been told no, and actually had the state BOR use President Allen to cut some of those around 2011-2013. President Allen, wrongly, gets **** on for a lot things that were so far beyond his control. He didn't start the enrollment issues, and he came in right as the recession of 08 hit. The BOR then forced him to cut a ton of programs, including the lab school that UNI's ed program was using for decades. It was 100% the right move but the optics of it were horrible and people took all their frustrations out on him, the faculty hit him with a no confidence vote and he then retired. Oh, and he was diagnosed with cancer and went through chemo while going through all of that as president at UNI.

"He gutted the school"? How. He removed the major/certifications for a number of programs, yes. Do you know the number of students those cuts actually impacted? It was an insignificant amount. The headlines were "Allen cuts 25% of programs". The programs cut?

German and French majors/minors/certificates - which was less than 100 students. The courses were/are still offered at UNI but by removing the majors it required less money to be spent to maintain the programs.
Some small, niche, geology majors/minors/certificates - which was 25 total students. The earth sciences departmet and geology still exist at UNI.
World religion as a minor - 40 total students
Philosophy major/minor - could argue this could be worth keeping. However, there were 50 total students enrolled at UNI with a declared major/minor in philosophy.
Physics major/minor - could argue this is something that could/should have been kept. However, there was 70 total students enrolled at UNI with a decaled physics major/minor.

The majors/minors removed was less than 300 students. Based on enrollment at the time it was less than 2.5% of all students.

You want to get into the price lab debate? It was 10000% the right move. The physical building of Price Lab was a disaster. It was in need of roughly 50-75 million dollars in repairs on top of then continuing the upgrades and maintenance. It was built and then basically ignored by everyone, as far as upkeep went, from the day it opened until the day it was demolished. There was also a fair amount coming out that the strategies being tested there, outcomes of the students, etc. were lagging behind outcomes from schools across the state. Student teachers that went out and did their student teaching outside of Price Lab were showing better outcomes than those who used Price Lab. While Price started with a great idea, great intentions, and as a great selling point it quickly lost it's way and became a gigantic money sink that the academics at UNI refused to let go of. UNI's education programs, and graduate degrees, are every bit as good, if not better, now than they were a decade ago when Price Lab was still around. Why? Because hundreds of thousands of dollars a year no longer needs to go to support a laboratory school that had less than 400 kids in it grades K-12 combined.

The irony, of course, in in that is the BOR is telling UNI it needs to find ways to grow enrollment and retain more students. Yet it actively takes steps to make sure UNI can't grow. It has prevented UNI from growing majors that are relevant in 2022 while enabling Iowa and Iowa State to poach students from UNI's strongest/most known programs.

UNI is a very solid, nationally known (within context) institution that has a strong identity among U of Iowa and Iowa State. Its location in a nicely sized metro area should attract students who come from rural backgrounds and do not want to be "overwhelmed" by a city/highly urbanized school and those who matriculate from Des Moines, Chicago, Rockford, Quad Cities, Twin Cities etc who want a more traditional college town experience. Academically it has a wide range of undergrad programs, quality masters offerings and several attractive doctoral options including numerous Ed.D. tracks which is a great niche!

From a Northeast perspective, Iowa State was always known as the Texas A&M of the cornfields while the University of Iowa was the respected Big 10 school that is good at what exactly? Journalism based on Brokaw's presence in marketing endeavors? Children's medical care? Obviously, they have great programs given their vast resources. It's the fact the institution lacks the "word of mouth" equity imo that limits its national reach. As it is, when considering/researching masters and now doctoral programs in the Midwest U of I never really crossed my mind. Wisconsin-Madison and Northwestern are on my doctoral application radar as my "reach/dream" option. Just completed my Kansas State app and will start my DePaul one next week. Schools like WIU (reached out to St Lawson in the spring to gather info), Illinois State, UNI and Northern Illinois interested me given where the intersection of academia and athletics is headed but ultimately other options have emerged.