Murray State to MVFC

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The OVC seems to be in deep, deep trouble.

https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/1478872427203596288

[DFW HOYA]

Any pressure on Morehead State to return to play football there?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How... happy is Tennessee State in the OVC?

[dgtw]

So will the MVFC take them?


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[bonarae]

Any pressure on Morehead State to return to play football there?

How long have they been non-scholarship? Ever since they moved up from D-II? xchinscratchx

[atthewbon]

Don’t think it’s official they’re going to the MVFC for football yet. That’s not to say it couldn’t eventually happen.

[DFW HOYA]

How long have they been non-scholarship? Ever since they moved up from D-II? xchinscratchx

Two decades. Morehead played in the OVC from 1948-1995, played as an I-AA independent for five seasons, and joined the PFL in 2001.

Austin Peay followed a similar path but rejoined the OVC in 2007 before opting for the A-Sun next season.

[JSUSoutherner]

Don’t think it’s official they’re going to the MVFC for football yet. That’s not to say it couldn’t eventually happen.
I'd very much suspect the OVC to not be receptive to Murray being football only.

If I'm the OVC I'm on the phone with Grand Valley, Ferris State, WIU, and YSU and begging Morehead to play schollie football.

If Tennessee State bails or the Southland poaches SEMO the OVC is good as dead.

[DFW HOYA]

Not that they would consider it, but Butler and Dayton are football-only schools within range of the OVC footprint as well.

But there's a reason why you need scholarships to compete in a scholarship conference and that's a cost a school like Morehead would not easily come up with.

[dgtw]

I'd very much suspect the OVC to not be receptive to Murray being football only.

If I'm the OVC I'm on the phone with Grand Valley, Ferris State, WIU, and YSU and begging Morehead to play schollie football.

If Tennessee State bails or the Southland poaches SEMO the OVC is good as dead.

I could see them keeping Murray around until they backfill some. But they are in serious trouble.


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[BeamMeUp]

Remember... the MVC and MVFC aren’t exactly the same.

This tweet reinforces that. Not a given Murray ends up in the MVFC, although I’ve heard that rumor this year.
https://i.postimg.cc/MK1ygg1X/23-CE7866-F0-B0-4881-AA6-B-F4-C2-DF07-CEC7.jpg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The way I see this unfolding is one of five ways.

1. Murray State joins MVFC, WIU leaves the MVFC and joins the OVC as an associate member. This works because WIU isn't a member of the MVC. The OVC limps on, but hangs by a thread.

2. MVFC and OVC take all of their teams and form some sort-of coalition of 2 football-only constructs, with the Dakotas in one and the Missouri schools, the Illinois schools and Murray in the other. This would mean a radical reworking of two regional conferences, but they would be regional conferences, not awful travel challenges. Could lose some schools to the ASun. Tennessee State has options, they could go Big South, SWAC or maybe MEAC (though they have no historic tie to the MEAC).

3. SEMO leaves for the Southland, which leaves Tennessee Tech, Tennessee State, UT Martin and EIU in big trouble. Tennessee State has options, they could go Big South, SWAC or MEAC. The other three could be royally screwed.

4. OVC gets a couple of D-II move-ups (GV State?) or finds a non-FB school (Winthrop?) to sponsor the sport. As mentioned Morehead State could be a possibility to go from the PFL to scholarship ball, but it won't be cheap.

5. The Southland and OVC merge and form their own mega-conference, but it's a pretty big footprint. Could lose some schools to the ASun or Tennessee State could fly the coop to the Big South, SWAC or MEAC.

In order of most likely outcomes to least: 1, 5, 4, 3, 2.

[ST_Lawson]

The way I see this unfolding is one of five ways.

1. Murray State joins MVFC, WIU leaves the MVFC and joins the OVC as an associate member. This works because WIU isn't a member of the MVC. The OVC limps on, but hangs by a thread.

2. MVFC and OVC take all of their teams and form some sort-of coalition of 2 football-only constructs, with the Dakotas in one and the Missouri schools, the Illinois schools and Murray in the other. This would mean a radical reworking of two regional conferences, but they would be regional conferences, not awful travel challenges. Could lose some schools to the ASun. Tennessee State has options, they could go Big South, SWAC or maybe MEAC (though they have no historic tie to the MEAC).

3. SEMO leaves for the Southland, which leaves Tennessee Tech, Tennessee State, UT Martin and EIU in big trouble. Tennessee State has options, they could go Big South, SWAC or MEAC. The other three could be royally screwed.

4. OVC gets a couple of D-II move-ups (GV State?) or finds a non-FB school (Winthrop?) to sponsor the sport. As mentioned Morehead State could be a possibility to go from the PFL to scholarship ball, but it won't be cheap.

5. The Southland and OVC merge and form their own mega-conference, but it's a pretty big footprint. Could lose some schools to the ASun or Tennessee State could fly the coop to the Big South, SWAC or MEAC.

In order of most likely outcomes to least: 1, 5, 4, 3, 2.

I think 1 is unlikely at this point, at least with regards to WIU joining the OVC in football. A year ago, maybe, but now...no. I know that our President was considering the OVC at one point until he was made aware of the current situation with teams leaving. This was November-ish. I'd think we'd have heard something by now if WIU to the OVC was going to happen.

I could maybe see a possibility of WIU in the OVC in a variation of your #5. In this scenario, Southland and OVC merge football...maybe they all play under the Southland Football umbrella, and the OVC becomes a non-football league (like the Summit, MVC, or Horizon). Then WIU joins the OVC in all other sports, keeping football in the MVFC.

I had not thought about #2 being a possibility, but it's interesting. Not sure how that split would work though...does UNI go with the Dakota teams, essentially bringing back the old NCC at the FCS level...I would think they'd want to stay with their DI football rivals like SIU, ILSU, and MO State. If TN State goes to the SWAC, do you then have a football league of WIU, SIU, ILSU, EIU, INSU, MOSU, Murray State, SEMO, TTU, UT-Martin...and maybe YSU? Still a fairly big football league where each team is having to skip 2 other teams every year.

EDIT - take this with a huge grain of salt because it's based on stuff I've read on other message boards, but some MVC fans have said that the MVFC voted down adding Murray State to the MVFC. I wonder if that happened a while back and this announcement means that Murray State has reached some kind of agreement with either another conference or with the OVC to keep football there. I know in the past I've seen it said that the OVC wouldn't be interested in a football-only member, but at this point, beggars can't be choosers, and they might be desperate enough to give Murray State that option.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Not so fast. Look for Racer football to remain in the OVC. Didn't think that would happen, but the OVC is not in a position to kick them out entirely.

[WestCoastAggie]

I think 1 is unlikely at this point, at least with regards to WIU joining the OVC in football. A year ago, maybe, but now...no. I know that our President was considering the OVC at one point until he was made aware of the current situation with teams leaving. This was November-ish. I'd think we'd have heard something by now if WIU to the OVC was going to happen.

I could maybe see a possibility of WIU in the OVC in a variation of your #5. In this scenario, Southland and OVC merge football...maybe they all play under the Southland Football umbrella, and the OVC becomes a non-football league (like the Summit, MVC, or Horizon). Then WIU joins the OVC in all other sports, keeping football in the MVFC.

I had not thought about #2 being a possibility, but it's interesting. Not sure how that split would work though...does UNI go with the Dakota teams, essentially bringing back the old NCC at the FCS level...I would think they'd want to stay with their DI football rivals like SIU, ILSU, and MO State. If TN State goes to the SWAC, do you then have a football league of WIU, SIU, ILSU, EIU, INSU, MOSU, Murray State, SEMO, TTU, UT-Martin...and maybe YSU? Still a fairly big football league where each team is having to skip 2 other teams every year.

EDIT - take this with a huge grain of salt because it's based on stuff I've read on other message boards, but some MVC fans have said that the MVFC voted down adding Murray State to the MVFC. I wonder if that happened a while back and this announcement means that Murray State has reached some kind of agreement with either another conference or with the OVC to keep football there. I know in the past I've seen it said that the OVC wouldn't be interested in a football-only member, but at this point, beggars can't be choosers, and they might be desperate enough to give Murray State that option.

If this part is true, we may see a situation where Murray State plays football in the Big South. Yikes to our football travel budgets and it'll be odd seeing A&T play Murray State. Who to cheer for in that game. LMAO!

[WestCoastAggie]

Not so fast. Look for Racer football to remain in the OVC. Didn't think that would happen, but the OVC is not in a position to kick them out entirely.

Racer Football could suddenly have options between the A-Sun, Big South, OVC, and WAC potentially.

[JSUSoutherner]

Not so fast. Look for Racer football to remain in the OVC. Didn't think that would happen, but the OVC is not in a position to kick them out entirely.
I know for a fact that the OVC has reached out to Grand Valley. I'd think Grand Valley and Ferris would be a package. If they move those two up, no reason to keep Murray around unless someone else leaves.

Also the Big South would take Murray as football only.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One possible outcome I didn't think of is Murray to the ASun as a football-only member - which would give them 7 teams, I think.

If they do that and the OVC gets Ferris St. and GV State... that's an interesting possibility that would satisfy a lot of parties that have expressed reservations (MVFC doesn't expand, ASun becomes more stable, OVC survives with more members, WIU situation stays the same).

Another domino is that UTA then goes to the WAC instead of going to the MVC

[jacksfan29!]

I have a hard time believing the MVFC would take Murray but the MVC members did accept UND so one never knows. I think UNI would be the loudest voice against. A division MVFC would screw UNI while benefiting Illinois State.

[WestCoastAggie]

I know for a fact that the OVC has reached out to Grand Valley. I'd think Grand Valley and Ferris would be a package. If they move those two up, no reason to keep Murray around unless someone else leaves.

Also the Big South would take Murray as football only.

Ferris State and Grand Valley State would be a coup for the OVC and could entice WIU to join and Youngstown State to return oddly enough. Those two programs, along with Valdosta State and West Florida should be Division 1 programs.

I'd also go on a limb and say those two Michigan programs would quickly rise to the top of the FCS ranks and compete very well against the MVFC in the playoffs.

[SDFS]

I have a hard time believing the MVFC would take Murray but the MVC members did accept UND so one never knows. I think UNI would be the loudest voice against. A division MVFC would screw UNI while benefiting Illinois State.

Twelve Teams:

Division 1 - MiSU (10) SIU (19), ISU-B, ISU-R, YSU, MuSU
Division 2 - NDSU* (2), SDSU* (11), USD* (15), UNI (21), UND* (37), WIU

Play everyone in your division plus 3 cross over games alternating annually. It's not like UNI doesn't have decades long history with the Dakota schools and if UNI wanted a couple of protected annual cross over games. It just a matter of working out the schedule. The balance between the two Division might be off, but the MVFC is always going to be that way with the agreement that all Dakota schools play each other annually.

* Schools that support COA.

[OSRacer]

As a former Racer player and alum, I'd love to see MSU in the MVFC but we have a long way to go to be competitive...interesting times for sure.

[JSUSoutherner]

As a former Racer player and alum, I'd love to see MSU in the MVFC but we have a long way to go to be competitive...interesting times for sure.
Might want to start by being competitive in the Ohio Valley before you skip to being competitive in the Missouri Valley. :D

[MR. CHICKEN]

.........RECRUITIN' FROM MISERY VALLEY......MAY HELP DRAW BETTER PLAYERS...TO MURRAYVILLE........OWN-LAH SO MANY..........CAN PLAY FO' BIZONZZZZZZS......AWK!

[UNAPride]

Remember... the MVC and MVFC aren’t exactly the same.

This tweet reinforces that. Not a given Murray ends up in the MVFC, although I’ve heard that rumor this year.
https://i.postimg.cc/MK1ygg1X/23-CE7866-F0-B0-4881-AA6-B-F4-C2-DF07-CEC7.jpg

From the article:

If the MVFC does not accept Murray State, the ASUN could potentially be a option. When reached for comment, ASUN commissioner Ted Gumbart told Extra Points that the league is unable to comment on school membership issues.

www.extrapointsmb.com/breaking-mvc-expected-to-add-murray-state-uic/ (https://www.extrapointsmb.com/breaking-mvc-expected-to-add-murray-state-uic/)

[BisonFan02]

If Murray St joins the MVFC, this is exactly why Summit League football needs to happen.

[WestCoastAggie]

If Murray St joins the MVFC, this is exactly why Summit League football needs to happen.

I think this could be worth revisiting.

NDSU
SDSU
UND
USD
UNI
N. Colorado?

[SDFS]

I think this could be worth revisiting.

NDSU
SDSU
UND
USD
UNI
N. Colorado?

They need to work with St. Thomas to get scholarship football going.

[Laker]

They need to work with St. Thomas to get scholarship football going.

I wish that UNO could get a sugar daddy to restart football.

[SDFS]

Well according to this link - it sounds like WIU is looking at OVC. I believe that many here have thought this might happen.

LetsGoDU: Western Illinios University Studying Summit League Exit (https://letsgodu.com/2022/01/05/western-illinios-university-studying-summit-league-exit/#comments)

[BisonFan02]

I think this could be worth revisiting.

NDSU
SDSU
UND
USD
UNI
N. Colorado?

UNI is in the MVC.

NDSU
SDSU
UND
USD
WIU
St. Thomas (it's only a matter of time for Schollys

That's 6....good start.

[taper]

I'm definitely a fan of Summit football, but it's going to take some work. Northern Colorado is a great travel partner for Denver and is already a Summit associate for baseball, but it'll take awhile to pull all sports from Big Sky. I used to think EIU was going to come back but the state of Illinois has no money and they're not ready. As far as basketball the Summit is on the rise and MVC on the decline but it's still a long ways to go before the MVC publics see the Summit as a better option. Once that happens it's a done deal.

[dgtw]

Any update on Chicago State? The OVC was a potential landing spot that was mentioned.

While they don’t currently sponsor football, they are supposed to be starting a PFL program. Any more news on that?

This wouldn’t help OVC football today, but it would give them a warm body in a major market. If WIU joins, it gives them a 6/10 setup if Murray football leaves.


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[DFW HOYA]

No news on Chicago State. They're out of the WAC in less than six months and still have no takers.

[dgtw]

No news on Chicago State. They're out of the WAC in less than six months and still have no takers.

A quick search and the best I could find was an interview with their AD in October that was published in the Chicago Defender.

Nothing of substance other than the usual blah blah of exploring all options and listed the conferences we’ve seen mentioned.

IMO, they have no clue what they will do. Not having football doesn’t help getting in anywhere.


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[mvfcfan]

If the Dakotas block Murray, then the MVC should just start football. We now have 6 schools for an AQ. I'd add EIU, WIU, SEMO, and YSU as FB Only members for basically a Gateway 2.0. That also opens the door completely for WIU to go OVC while staying with their old football rivals including EIU. The OVC TN schools could easily go Big South or ASUN.

[WestCoastAggie]

No news on Chicago State. They're out of the WAC in less than six months and still have no takers.
It’s MEAC or bust for Chicago State!

[SDFS]

If the Dakotas block Murray, then the MVC should just start football. We now have 6 schools for an AQ. I'd add EIU, WIU, SEMO, and YSU as FB Only members for basically a Gateway 2.0. That also opens the door completely for WIU to go OVC while staying with their old football rivals including EIU. The OVC TN schools could easily go Big South or ASUN.

I am not sure that WIU is going to leave the Summit and I don't think the Dakota schools would be blocking the entry of Murray State. Not sure what is preventing that from happening.. it could be Murray State not wanting the MVFC due to travel and the cost of competing in the MVFC. Because if you are going to be successful in the MVFC you have to invest in football and does Murray State want to invest in football? I don't know enough about the school to form an opinion.

[ST_Lawson]

Well according to this link - it sounds like WIU is looking at OVC. I believe that many here have thought this might happen.

LetsGoDU: Western Illinios University Studying Summit League Exit (https://letsgodu.com/2022/01/05/western-illinios-university-studying-summit-league-exit/#comments)

I read that article too. Their speculation is based entirely on a few rumors and an article from over a month ago that included some comments during a Board of Trustees meeting regarding what the president and AD have been doing regarding conference affiliation. It's true they were talking to the OVC at one point, but it's also true that at the time, the president was not aware of all the recent defections from the OVC. I know someone who was in a meeting with him around that time and he was informed of the current OVC situation. After that point, the president was much less "on board" with the idea and since then, there has been no new comments or rumors regarding a change in conference affiliation. Everything I've seen mentioned around the internet since then has been referencing stuff from last fall, prior to the president being informed of the OVC's situation.

[JacksFan40]

If Murray St joins the MVFC, this is exactly why Summit League football needs to happen.
I’d rather go to the FBS as an Independent before Summit football.

[JacksFan40]

They need to work with St. Thomas to get scholarship football going.
They probably will eventually. They have the resources and I’d assume want to compete for titles in the FCS, which won’t happen in the PFL.

[Professor Chaos]

They probably will eventually. They have the resources and I’d assume want to compete for titles in the FCS, which won’t happen in the PFL.
From what I've heard St Thomas' goal is the Big East. Football is an afterthought or completely non-existent for all those schools. The PFL may be their home for a while if that's the case.

[WestCoastAggie]

The MVFC is not off the table for Murray State!

https://media.giphy.com/media/w7mLEAMcpjrpe/giphy.gif

https://goracers.com/documents/2022/1/6/MVC_FAQ.pdf

[Lehigh Football Nation]

MVFC would be 12 teams with Murray. Couldn't they go to divisional play?

NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNI, Mo. St.
YSU, Murray, ISUr, WIU, ISUb, SIU

[WestCoastAggie]

MVFC would be 12 teams with Murray. Couldn't they go to divisional play?

NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNI, Mo. St.
YSU, Murray, ISUr, WIU, ISUb, SIU

Swap Misery State with WIU.

[ST_Lawson]

MVFC would be 12 teams with Murray. Couldn't they go to divisional play?

NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNI, Mo. St.
YSU, Murray, ISUr, WIU, ISUb, SIU

They could, yes, but there'd be a lot of people not real happy at UNI and Mo State with being lumped into having to play all the Dakota schools every year. Big imbalance of difficulty between divisions, at least currently.

[SDFS]

I’d rather go to the FBS as an Independent before Summit football.

That could be tough - Idaho and New Mexico St schools with similar resources and locals bounced around for a time and one returned after 20 years.

Idaho:
Started in Big Sky
1996 - Big West
2001 - Sun Belt
2005 - WAC
2013 - FBS - Indy
2014 - Sun Belt
2018 FCS - Big Sky

6 Changes in 22 years. NOTE: I thought UND's transition was rough (NCC->Great West->Big Sky->MVFC)

[SDFS]

The MVFC is not off the table for Murray State!

https://goracers.com/documents/2022/1/6/MVC_FAQ.pdf

Q: The Missouri Valley Conference does not sponsor football. Where will Murray State’s Football program compete?
A: In the Ohio Valley Conference for the 2022 season.

Q: Where will Murray State’s Football program compete beyond 2022?
A: Murray State University is currently engaged in the membership process with the Missouri Valley Football Conference, a stand-alone/independent conference entity than the Missouri Valley Conference.

This reads like it is a scheduling issue and membership is a formality in the near future. I think UND had a two year transition period (Indy - playing Big Sky schedule). So, if they follow a similar timeline. You are looking at 2025.

[UNAPride]

Upon unanimous support from the Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) board of presidents – a separate stand-alone, football-only conference – Murray State and MVFC officials are actively engaged in the membership process, which officially began immediately upon receipt of the MVC invitation.

https://kscj.com/2022/01/07/murray-state-university-joins-the-missouri-valley-conference/


Murray State will play football in the Ohio Valley Conference in 2022, but all other sports will compete in The Valley. The Racer football program will join the Missouri Valley Football Conference-which is independent of the Missouri Valley Conference in 2023.

https://whopam.com/2022/01/07/its-official-murray-state-joins-the-missouri-valley-conference/

[atthewbon]

I’m surprised this is getting “unanimous support”. You wouldn’t think the Dakota schools want to travel to Kentucky and the division structure would be incredibly unbalanced. But it’s also exciting to get a new team and Murray state has been getting a bit better.

[jacksfan29!]

I am not sure that WIU is going to leave the Summit and I don't think the Dakota schools would be blocking the entry of Murray State. Not sure what is preventing that from happening.. it could be Murray State not wanting the MVFC due to travel and the cost of competing in the MVFC. Because if you are going to be successful in the MVFC you have to invest in football and does Murray State want to invest in football? I don't know enough about the school to form an opinion.

They could end up being more competitive than Indiana State. From the release I saw today from Murray, looks like the MVFC is accepting them. Kind of figured, how can you block Murray from joining when UND and USD were agreed on by the MVC schools.

[jacksfan29!]

I’m surprised this is getting “unanimous support”. You wouldn’t think the Dakota schools want to travel to Kentucky and the division structure would be incredibly unbalanced. But it’s also exciting to get a new team and Murray state has been getting a bit better.

But blocking it would do harm to the relationships built up over the years. By all accounts, the SDSU and NDSU relationship with the MVC schools is very good. The MVC schools agreed to add UND and USD when you know they didn't really want to. I do think you will see divisions; the question is how long the league lasts after that occurs. Look at what has occurred in the Big Sky with a strong, and a weak division structure. I have to think the MVFC days may be numbered.

[WestCoastAggie]

They could end up being more competitive than Indiana State. From the release I saw today from Murray, looks like the MVFC is accepting them. Kind of figured, how can you block Murray from joining when UND and USD were agreed on by the MVC schools.

The only issue is travel. Murray State is in the middle of a Capital Campaign for Athletics to improve facilities. That includes Roy Stewart Stadium. Eventhough it'll remain a wonky, weird, one sided stadium but football facilities will also be improved.

[atthewbon]

But blocking it would do harm to the relationships built up over the years. By all accounts, the SDSU and NDSU relationship with the MVC schools is very good. The MVC schools agreed to add UND and USD when you know they didn't really want to. I do think you will see divisions; the question is how long the league lasts after that occurs. Look at what has occurred in the Big Sky with a strong, and a weak division structure. I have to think the MVFC days may be numbered.

Makes sense. I understand why they are publicly supporting it and that the relationships are important. I just suspect SDSU and more particularly NDSU aren’t thrilled about this. Like you said idk if this is good for the long term stability of the conference and I could see it breaking apart soon (although that will probably come more from the new NCAA governing rules coming soon as opposed to Murray st). Like some have said I think Murray st could end up being better or at least competitive with a lot of the conference (Both ISU’s, WIU, and Youngstown). It will be interesting to see what the conference does with divisions, maybe a Big Ten inspired legends vs. leaders type split where it’s not solely based on geography (with a different name though lol).

[WestCoastAggie]

https://twitter.com/dreamarlowe85/status/1479511388901023744

[DFW HOYA]

The only issue is travel. Murray State is in the middle of a Capital Campaign for Athletics to improve facilities. That includes Roy Stewart Stadium. Eventhough it'll remain a wonky, weird, one sided stadium but football facilities will also be improved.

A one sided Roy Stewart Stadium is better than nearly anything in the Patriot League.

[jacksfan29!]

Makes sense. I understand why they are publicly supporting it and that the relationships are important. I just suspect SDSU and more particularly NDSU aren’t thrilled about this. Like you said idk if this is good for the long term stability of the conference and I could see it breaking apart soon (although that will probably come more from the new NCAA governing rules coming soon as opposed to Murray st). Like some have said I think Murray st could end up being better or at least competitive with a lot of the conference (Both ISU’s, WIU, and Youngstown). It will be interesting to see what the conference does with divisions, maybe a Big Ten inspired legends vs. leaders type split where it’s not solely based on geography (with a different name though lol).

I think both XDSU's, and even the UXD's have to be thinking about the future and the viability of FCS FB. I could see the division heading the same route as D2 in the 90s. Cutting scholarships, watering down the playoffs by limiting conference entrants, there is a reason NDSU and SDSU pushed for departure from D2 in the 90s.

Not sure what happens in the next 5 years, but I doubt NCAA FB looks the same as it does today. I don't think the MVFC will be around in 5 years, if it is it will not look the same as it does today. Changes are coming, those changes will be dictated by P5 and money. The G5 and FCS will both be affected.

[taper]

The extra travel really isn't that bad. SIU and ISUb are bus trips, and a bunch of others are closer to Murray than the Dakotas. The Valley is getting too big though, we're going to be like the Big Sky where a good but not great team that randomly avoids the best teams ends up with the autobid and a seed then loses right away.

[ST_Lawson]

I’m surprised this is getting “unanimous support”. You wouldn’t think the Dakota schools want to travel to Kentucky and the division structure would be incredibly unbalanced. But it’s also exciting to get a new team and Murray state has been getting a bit better.

Read elsewhere that they aren't planning on doing the division model, which I guess means that everyone misses 3 teams a year on a rotating basis probably.

[clenz]

I’m surprised this is getting “unanimous support”. You wouldn’t think the Dakota schools want to travel to Kentucky and the division structure would be incredibly unbalanced. But it’s also exciting to get a new team and Murray state has been getting a bit better.

It got it the same way UND and USD did.

It wasn’t and it isn’t but because the no votes were out numbered it becomes a PR thing to go “unanimous”

And it isn’t who you think it is that was against it the most.


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[clenz]

Read elsewhere that they aren't planning on doing the division model, which I guess means that everyone misses 3 teams a year on a rotating basis probably.

Also hearing this.

What I’m hearing is the “travel restrictions” trying to limit E-W trips from USD and UND being added are going to be lifted. It will not be divisions.

The only rule I’ve heard floated as being a thing is the Dakota 4 “demanding” they play each other every year and never rotate off.

That leaves the Dakota 4 with 3 set games every year and the other 8 schools rotating in/out the other games


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[ST_Lawson]

The only rule I’ve heard floated as being a thing is the Dakota 4 “demanding” they play each other every year and never rotate off.


And honestly, if it means fewer flights to the Dakotas for everyone else, I think most schools are probably ok with that. Plus it means that the rest of the conference gets to miss the XDSU's more often, which is maybe not a bad thing if you're trying to win more games.

[SDFS]

But blocking it would do harm to the relationships built up over the years. By all accounts, the SDSU and NDSU relationship with the MVC schools is very good. The MVC schools agreed to add UND and USD when you know they didn't really want to. I do think you will see divisions; the question is how long the league lasts after that occurs. Look at what has occurred in the Big Sky with a strong, and a weak division structure. I have to think the MVFC days may be numbered.

Just cleaning up a couple of things:

- MVFC was receptive to SDSU and didn't want NDSU.. SDSU did NDSU a huge favor and said "both or none"! The MVFC caved.
- USD leveraged the complete destruction of the Summit League which would have screwed both NDSU and SDSU. Just to screw the Big Sky and UND. Well played USD I guess.
- The MVFC never really wanted UND, but the other Dakota schools saw the stability of adding UND to the Summit League when - ORU and UMKC left and you had Fort Wayne and WIU looking around.

I do agree with you on the formation of divisions and how long will that last - who knows.

But, I don't think the Big Sky ever had divisions. To be honest, the Big Sky put a big safety net out for all the Great West schools (Cal Poly, Davis, SUU and UND) that lost their conference. I will always have respect for the Big Sky Conference.

In summary, the Dakota schools have been playing leverage games with the MVFC since Day 1.

[Yote 53]

Just cleaning up a couple of things:

- MVC was receptive to SDSU and didn't want NDSU.. SDSU did NDSU a huge favor and said "both or none"! The MVFC caved.
- USD leveraged the complete destruction of the Summit League which would have screwed both NDSU and SDSU. Just to screw the Big Sky and UND. Well played USD I guess.
- The MVFC never really wanted UND, but the other Dakota schools saw the stability of adding UND to the Summit League when - ORU and UMKC left and you had Fort Wayne and WIU looking around.

I do agree with you on the formation of divisions and how long will that last - who knows.

But, I don't think the Big Sky ever had divisions. To be honest, the Big Sky put a big safety net out for all the Great West schools (Cal Poly, Davis, SUU and UND) that lost their conference. I will always have respect for the Big Sky Conference.

In summary, the Dakota schools have been playing leverage games with the MVFC since Day 1.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[SDFS]

Also hearing this.

What I’m hearing is the “travel restrictions” trying to limit E-W trips from USD and UND being added are going to be lifted. It will not be divisions.

The only rule I’ve heard floated as being a thing is the Dakota 4 “demanding” they play each other every year and never rotate off.

That leaves the Dakota 4 with 3 set games every year and the other 8 schools rotating in/out the other games
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So nobody wants to be apart of the Dakota Division dunking on an annual basis.

[taper]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I don't think USD screwed the Big Sky or UND. USD pushed for what was obviously the best option for them, and the Summit was also very glad to have them. UND screwed themselves. The Summit didn't want anything to do with them until they resolved their nickname controversy. The Big Sky was less picky and took them as the Fighting Sioux. UND to Summit was announced a little more than a year after UND became the Fighting Hawks, and the Big Sky was so glad to get rid of them they waived the exit fee.

I'd like to think the negotiations to bring USD and UND into the MVFC were cordial and cooperative between the Summit and MVC, with both recognizing it was an overall benefit even if it made life for a few a little harder. Just like I hope the Summit teams are returning the favor by voting in Murray. OTOH, the Summit did have a big stick in threatening to leave. Not yet enough teams for an AQ but there's no doubt At Larges would be pouring in and we'd be ok. No idea if it was brought up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only rule I’ve heard floated as being a thing is the Dakota 4 “demanding” they play each other every year and never rotate off.

So a defacto "Dakota pod"? Maybe the Illinois schools (+UNI?) could do something similar?

[Baron Sardonicus]

It got it the same way UND and USD did.

It wasn’t and it isn’t but because the no votes were out numbered it becomes a PR thing to go “unanimous”

And it isn’t who you think it is that was against it the most.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who was against it?

[SDFS]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Oh, I don't hate the player or the game. When your school is an hour from the Canada border - leverage is the only play you have got.

[JacksFan40]

That could be tough - Idaho and New Mexico St schools with similar resources and locals bounced around for a time and one returned after 20 years.

Idaho:
Started in Big Sky
1996 - Big West
2001 - Sun Belt
2005 - WAC
2013 - FBS - Indy
2014 - Sun Belt
2018 FCS - Big Sky

6 Changes in 22 years. NOTE: I thought UND's transition was rough (NCC->Great West->Big Sky->MVFC)
Idaho only went one year as an Independent, and also had the misfortune of being in the Big West and WAC when they quit sponsoring football.

I don’t want SDSU to go up as an Independent because that’d be quite the challenge to get a schedule, especially trying to get FBS teams to come to Brookings. However if the choice is between Summit football or Independent FBS, I’m leaning toward Independent.

[JacksFan40]

Just cleaning up a couple of things:

- MVFC was receptive to SDSU and didn't want NDSU.. SDSU did NDSU a huge favor and said "both or none"! The MVFC caved.
- USD leveraged the complete destruction of the Summit League which would have screwed both NDSU and SDSU. Just to screw the Big Sky and UND. Well played USD I guess.
- The MVFC never really wanted UND, but the other Dakota schools saw the stability of adding UND to the Summit League when - ORU and UMKC left and you had Fort Wayne and WIU looking around.

I do agree with you on the formation of divisions and how long will that last - who knows.

But, I don't think the Big Sky ever had divisions. To be honest, the Big Sky put a big safety net out for all the Great West schools (Cal Poly, Davis, SUU and UND) that lost their conference. I will always have respect for the Big Sky Conference.

In summary, the Dakota schools have been playing leverage games with the MVFC since Day 1.
Hopefully NDSU pays back the favor if they get an FBS invite.

[Bisonator]

Hopefully NDSU pays back the favor if they get an FBS invite.
They would but I think SDSU has just as good a chance at getting invited first again. Hopefully we stick together and make the move with each other again. Oh and the sooner the better, the FCS is already D3!

[taper]

They would but I think SDSU has just as good a chance at getting invited first again. Hopefully we stick together and make the move with each other again. Oh and the sooner the better, the FCS is already D3!
Curious why you think that. Any FBS offer will be a plane flight for all sports and Fargo has a much better connected airport than Brookings. I would say at the moment NDSU is a little better at all around sports than SDSU. Definitely agree that one going without the other would be bad.

[clenz]

Who was against it?

There were a couple schools that were very against it unless concessions on the scheduling mandate limiting EW flights was lifted and the idea of divisions was gotten rid of.

To the point a large part of the reason Murray took 2 or 3 months longer than Belmont for the MVC was purely due to football related issues and as recently as two or three weeks ago it sounded like Murray to the Valley was dead completely due to football related issues and them not being able to find a home for only football.

You can do your own math on it, but let’s just say these schools were willing to take the stand they did to the point of “hurting” their home conference.


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[Hammersmith]

There were a couple schools that were very against it unless concessions on the scheduling mandate limiting EW flights was lifted and the idea of divisions was gotten rid of.

To the point a large part of the reason Murray took 2 or 3 months longer than Belmont for the MVC was purely due to football related issues and as recently as two or three weeks ago it sounded like Murray to the Valley was dead completely due to football related issues and them not being able to find a home for only football.

You can do your own math on it, but let’s just say these schools were willing to take the stand they did to the point of “hurting” their home conference.


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I'm guessing UNI was leading the pack of 'no's with good reason. Probably also WIU, Illinois St and maybe SIU. Maybe even Missouri St. Adding Murray makes going to divisions really attractive to a bunch of the conference. But the two schools that get added to the Dakota 4 would get screwed with their strength of schedule compared to the eastern side. UNI to the west would be almost a sure thing, so they would be against any divisional split. And then who would be the unlucky 6th team in the west? WIU might be the obvious choice, but then the rivalry games between UNI and ISUr & SIU might not be protected.



I also see the MVFC changing dramatically in the next decade. As you add schools, internal stresses rise until you reach a breaking point. The least destructive path might just be NDSU & SDSU getting an FBS invite from someone. That would drop the conference back down to 10 and restore some parity. But if NDSU & SDSU stick around, something else is going to give. Don't know what, but whatever it will be should become apparent in the next few years.

[Hammersmith]

Just cleaning up a couple of things:

- MVFC was receptive to SDSU and didn't want NDSU.. SDSU did NDSU a huge favor and said "both or none"! The MVFC caved.
- USD leveraged the complete destruction of the Summit League which would have screwed both NDSU and SDSU. Just to screw the Big Sky and UND. Well played USD I guess.
- The MVFC never really wanted UND, but the other Dakota schools saw the stability of adding UND to the Summit League when - ORU and UMKC left and you had Fort Wayne and WIU looking around.

I do agree with you on the formation of divisions and how long will that last - who knows.

But, I don't think the Big Sky ever had divisions. To be honest, the Big Sky put a big safety net out for all the Great West schools (Cal Poly, Davis, SUU and UND) that lost their conference. I will always have respect for the Big Sky Conference.

In summary, the Dakota schools have been playing leverage games with the MVFC since Day 1.

I don't really get that viewpoint. The Big Sky(mostly it's commish) deliberately tries to destroy two conferences(Summit & GWFC) and destabilize a third(MVFC) and you choose to respect them for giving Cal Poly and UCD a football home when they were the ones that destroyed their original home in the first place?

I'm thinking someone doesn't actually know what happened back in 2010.

[clenz]

I'm guessing UNI was leading the pack of 'no's with good reason. Probably also WIU, Illinois St and maybe SIU. Maybe even Missouri St. Adding Murray makes going to divisions really attractive to a bunch of the conference. But the two schools that get added to the Dakota 4 would get screwed with their strength of schedule compared to the eastern side. UNI to the west would be almost a sure thing, so they would be against any divisional split. And then who would be the unlucky 6th team in the west? WIU might be the obvious choice, but then the rivalry games between UNI and ISUr & SIU might not be protected.



I also see the MVFC changing dramatically in the next decade. As you add schools, internal stresses rise until you reach a breaking point. The least destructive path might just be NDSU & SDSU getting an FBS invite from someone. That would drop the conference back down to 10 and restore some parity. But if NDSU & SDSU stick around, something else is going to give. Don't know what, but whatever it will be should become apparent in the next few years.
I'm not going to say the two schools I heard as beingvery strong no votes unless some major concessions will made. All I will say is the conference has been under a scheduling method of "limiting trips east to west and west to east". So the current rotation was set with that in mind. The way the idea of 12 has been floated since the beginning is that divisions would be created with "protected cross overs" similar to the Leaders/Legends split of the original 14 team B10 that would be added to the idea of limiting E-W travel (maximizing bus trips). I'll post a map that shows the location of each school (including MUSU) along with paths showing the geo-mid point. Two schools looked at that proposal and went "**** no. I don't give a **** if it impacts Murray's ability to join the MVC, the answer is **** no". There might have been a couple that were luke warm on the idea with divisions but weren't going to fight hard against it. So yes, two schools (from what I've heard) were willing to potentially **** the MVC over in getting Murray added even if it "hurt them" because of divisions.

Look at this map and count.
You'll find 6 schools east of the E/W split and 6 schools west.
You'll find 5 schools north of the N/S split and 7 schools south.

https://i.imgur.com/UFjQ7Bj.png

Now there are 3 schools that semi toe the N/S split with WIU/ISUr and YSU. However, if the goal is to limit long travel across the Midwest you run into issues.

1. You are going to force either WIU or ISUr to give up bus trips to the other one, plus Terre Haute, Carbondale, and likely Murray as it's only 5ish hours to Murray from both cities and replace them with flights to the Dakota 4
2. Youngstown State is forced (every trip is a flight for them anyway) to fly to the Dakotas and Iowa a minimum of two, if not three, times per year on top of cross over games in Springfield, Carbondale, and/or Murray.

There isn't a good way to go N/S and maintain the "limit long trips" mandate

The far more likely situation is they go E/W because it's already 6/6 AND it is a built-in travel limiter.

You have 5 schools all bus trips on the east and YSU who is a flight for everyone.
You have all 4 Dakota schools that are bus trips to each other and UNI who is a bus trip to 2 of the Dakotas with MOSU being the only fly everywhere school.

Now look at the balance of the two sides of the E/W split. NDSU, SDSU, USD, UNI and MOSU - AKA 6 of the top 7 most every year and then the east where you have SIU or ISUr that will pop up to the top half occasionally and then 4 botom feeders (because the reality is MUSU is going to be on the same level of ISUB or WIU year to year.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions on who was for and against Murry coming in to the VFC. There is a reason the MVC could have invited Murray at the same time as Belmont (mid September) but they weren't, and it was by every account I've heard, based on football related issues. Murray needed a home for football and there was enough contention with the plan for them to join the VFC that it made them not a slam dunk/unanimous MVC invite. They may have had enough votes to get in, but the optics around an invite not being "unanimous" is bad and without a home for football Murray wouldn't have been in a position to accept anyway.

There then had to be negotiations between the VFC members on the ability to add MUSU but dropping the rules regarding divisions and E/W travel restrictions. It helped, in the end, the Dakota 4 apparently said "We must play each other every year no matter what." With that kind of statement it allowed for a scheduling rotation to be created to avoid divisions, limit travel E/W and be more balanced without having to try to do so while maintaining a division set up. It allows for a defacto "pod" set up without being an actual pod set up.

As for the comment on protecting rivalry games from UNI's perspective? We've already had that **** all over. We have had SIU dropped from our schedule already because of the rotation. They are the "#1" rival and had played each other every year since 83. We've missed YSU, who is top 3 for a rival in football. We missed ISUb who we had played every year since 83. The same will be true when ISUr and MOSU rotate off because we need to fit USD an UND on our schedule.

People can bitch about Murray being added all they want from the Dakotas. They can scream about WE NEED SUMMIT LEAGUE FOOTBALL" all they want. The reality is the MVC cashed in a portion of the good will they gave out by adding the UxDs - especially UND. If you look at the articles that came out when UND was added you'll find it was "unanimous". It wasn't. There were schools that were greatly against it, however, that's not how college athletics works so the vote was unanimous - and will always be any time a school is added.

Now if one wants to get into a SLF debate that's a little different, and now I think it's as small of a chance of happening as ever

Moreover, as of July 1, 2022 the Valley schools give even less of a ****. There are now 6 Valley football schools with YSU around for a 7th. You technically only need 6 for an auto bid. The Valley football schools are safe. If the Summit schools threaten to leave their leverage has been drastically cut now because it’s not longer 5 Valley schools and YSU.

The Summit only has 5 football schools. Their only option is to go poach schools. That made sense a few years back because they didn’t have a full membership and had “room” to grow as a conference. The Summit is now at 10 members. You really need to get to 9 for a full slate, but like the Valley schools you could try to find 6 OOC games every year if you add a 6th member (let’s just go with UNC). To limit cost for football though (traveling to OOC games or buying that many OOC games) you’re going to try to get to 8 or 9 members. That means taking the Summit to 14. Where are you getting the other 3 football schools? Southern Utah is going WAC effective July 1 of this year. The WAC will be at 6 this year, and 7 in 2 years when UTRGV starts their program.

The footprint you would have to create is going to rival that of the Big Sky, which UND left and USD/SDSU/NDSU avoided because costs are insane for it. Merge with the WAC and form a 30 team super conference with the same **** storm of too many football programs and both exrtremes of football quality/commitment that spreads over the entirety of the Canadian border to the southern most point on the Mexican border, from Illinois to the UT/NV border?

Try to convinced Northern Colorado, Montana, Montana State, and EWU to leave the Big Sky for the Summit? Go with a 14 team summit, assuming WIU isn’t literally killed off by having to fly every athletic program to ****ing Washington, Colorado and Montana twice and Montana twice a ****ing year.

I’d honestly love to hear an actual thought out idea as to how SLF actually becomes a thing. In all the years, and it’s has been 7ish years we’ve been hearing about “Summit League Football” on AGS I’ve never once read an actual plan for how one would make SLF happen. What do you do with ORU, UMKC, UNO? Do you create a 14 team league that is going ton finish in the 20s in basketball conference ranking and maybe get a 15 or 14 seed in the NCAA tournament and split that one share 14 ways? Do you force out all non-football members somehow and then find a minimum of 5 football schools to join you, and hope that WIU is able to hold on so you don’t need to find 6? Creating another conference that we need to create an autobid for? Another conference that is going to be 6 members? Why so many 6 to 7 member leagues? That would make the following leagues 6/7 members

SL
MVC
OVC
WAC
ASUN
Big South (their members over 7 are going ASUN to get them to 7)
SLC

That’s 7 conferences that would be at 7 or less members. Why? Because butt hurt feelings that Murry State was added to the MVFC?

I’m actually asking, for anyone, to lay out a realistic plan for a Summit League football conference that isn’t just a made up “We can add these random football programs and kick these programs out because we need room”. What programs are looking for a new home that would join the Summit League?

https://imgur.com/a/RDruRvJ

[SDFS]

First, I don't have any problem with MuSU joining the MVFC. My school in UND and as you said in your post and as I have noted earlier UND is along for the ride. If you are going to work with today's conference and team structure:

SL (6) - USD/SDSU/UND/NDSU/WIU/St. Thomas (goes scholarship) - no changes required to Summit League - Now, this put considerable strain WIU. They could leave for OVC.
MVC (7) - ISUx2, MSUx2, UNI, YSU, SIU

You could work out a scheduling alliance between the two conferences. But as you said, it is a much different world because you would have many conferences looking for nonconference football games. I think that could be very interesting and it could be advantageous for both conferences to play a larger nonconference slate. How many nonconference FCS games did the Valley lose this year 1 or 2. You could see many MVC/SL schools with 7 wins. The first round of playoffs could be a MVC/SL Challenge.

I think another reason you are hearing more and more about SLF is the impending NCAA changes. It is giving conferences even more ownership. Does this make running conferences more expensive? Do schools in multiple conferences like UNI, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, Denver, StT and UND want to be paying for the additional conference overhead x 3 or 4 in some cases. Or do you try and consolidate your sports within a single conference and get consistent guidance from only one source.

[clenz]

First, I don't have any problem with MuSU joining the MVFC. My school in UND and as you said in your post and as I have noted earlier UND is along for the ride. If you are going to work with today's conference and team structure:

SL (6) - USD/SDSU/UND/NDSU/WIU/St. Thomas (goes scholarship) - no changes required to Summit League - Now, this put considerable strain WIU. They could leave for OVC.
MVC (7) - ISUx2, MSUx2, UNI, YSU, SIU

You could work out a scheduling alliance between the two conferences. But as you said, it is a much different world because you would have many conferences looking for nonconference football games. I think that could be very interesting and it could be advantageous for both conferences to play a larger nonconference slate. How many nonconference FCS games did the Valley lose this year 1 or 2. You could see many MVC/SL schools with 7 wins. The first round of playoffs could be a MVC/SL Challenge.

I think another reason you are hearing more and more about SLF is the impending NCAA changes. It is giving conferences even more ownership. Does this make running conferences more expensive? Do schools in multiple conferences like UNI, NDSU, SDSU, UNO, Denver, StT and UND want to be paying for the additional conference overhead x 3 or 4 in some cases. Or do you try and consolidate your sports within a single conference and get consistent guidance from only one source.
St Thomas does potentially change the equation for the Summit, but I don't see it. Nothing about their move, their university set up, etc. screams "We want scholarship football". Look at their university profile and see who it tracks with - Drake, Valpo, Butler, San Diego, Villanova, Dayton, Davidson. What do all of those schools have in common, sans Villanova? You can maybe start to look at someone like Duquesne or Robert Morris, though they are NEC schools who are all limited to 32 (maybe it's 40). I guess you could say they have the potential profile of a Patriot League school, those they are only at 60 and that is a recent change. None of them really like being at 60 but they realized to even pretend like they have a chance to compete nationally they had to go to 60.

I honestly don't think you get St. Thomas to go full scholarship, just as the MVC will never get Drake or Valpo to sponsor football. If the Valley could, that would give them 9 and we truly would tell the Summit to kick rocks. As I mentioned before, and I think most everyone agrees, UST isn't looking to be a Dakota 4 program/school. They used football as an excuse to escape D3, but they aren't trying to be a football power at the FCS level. Football was the key to unlock the door to get to a MVC, A10 or someday Big East type conference.

Let's, just for the sake of hashing this out, pretend UST is willing to be a 63 scholarship program. Let's pretend WIU sticks around the Summit and decides to try to find, and fund, 6 OOC games per season. You mention using the MVC as a scheduling alliance? So you (DISCLAIMING - I AM USING YOU AS A ROYAL YOU, NOT A SINGULAR YOU) want to break up with the Valley schools, but you still want to have sex with them because as it turns out every one else is already in a relationship that takes up most of their time? FWB might work in some situations, but generally breaking up with someone, doing so in a way to harm them, doing it to harm them, and then going back to them and going "So I know I broke up with you and made it clear that I hate you, but you still wanna ****?" doesn't go over well. Because of geography and history between programs the MVC will have no issues sliding into the DMs of the OVC/SLC left overs and go "You up?" Would some cross overs for OOC games still happen? Sure. But the idea of breaking up and then instantly getting back together in a scheduling alliance doesn't seem like something that would happen

I think you hit the nail on the head with WIU. The reality for a potential Summit League is it HAS to go west. There's nothing east for them. I suppose if you grab enough schools from the west it doesn't impact you to lose UNC, but you can't simply add UNC to get to 6 and go "Well, jobs done, we have enough for an AQ". The OVC has added UALR, sounds like Grand Valley State and Ferris State are on the way in. Chicago State, hold your laughs, is leaving the WAC and is apparently wanting to start football (again, hold your laughs) and would be a prime OVC target. They also have a scheduling alliance set up with the SLC. GVSU, FSU, and Chicago State put the OVC at 11. WIU joining SIUE and EIU in the OVC as the 12th would make sense. That would also give the OVC 9 football members - which in all reality is the perfect number for football



Football
EIU
SEMO
TSU
TTU
UTM
GVSU
FSU
WIU
CSU

Non-football/non-scholarship
Morehead State
SIUE
UALR

Blue is OVC football and yellow is OVC non football
Brown is SL football and red is SL non football
https://i.imgur.com/2UR4ePY.png

Average distance from WIU to the "new" OVC - 290 miles
Average distance to Summit w/ UNC - 472 miles
Even without UNC "skewing it" the average is 445.
Heck, even taking Denver out to completely get rid of the far west teams it is at 403.

The longest trip in the new OVC would be 410 miles. That is closer tha nmore than half of their games in the Summit. There is only 2 trips under 300 for the Summit - UMKC @ 230 and UNO at 290

The MVFC is a fantastic set up for both the Summit and MVC.

Is there enough unrest in the Big Sky to make a play for Montna Montana, State, Weber State and EWU? Do those schools want anything to do with Omaha, Kansas City, and Tulsa?

EWU is not far off of WIU's budget concerns based on the last few years. Replacing trips to Portland and Sacramento for trips to Brookings, Omaha, Grand Forks (again)?

Remember the Big Sky and UND were so willing to be done with each other the exit fee was dropped and the Big Sky allowed them as an affiliate for 2 years to get them to leave while a new home was finished.

The Summit has a nearly ideal travel set up right now. It is all I29, sans Denver and Macomb. I assuming Tulsa is a flight but other than that I would think everything else is a bus – maybe Grand Forks to KC is a flight).

This is what makes the idea of Summit League football so hard to get an answer on from those that want it. Those that seem to be the biggest proponent of it have a high cross over with the people who were ****ting all over UND for wanting to come back to the Summit because travel costs were killing them. You then want to put your entire conference into that travel situation? It’s also assuming that Montana, Montana State, Weber State, hell even Northern Colorado all want out of the Big Sky. The school the seems to be the most unhappy with the conference right now is NAU. With SUU gone to the WAC NAU is the most isolated team in any conference it seems, and the WAC could be a potential play for the WAC. UNC might be close second in terms of being isolated, but outside of the Summit League starting their own football conference they don’t seem to have much of an option. Now that the VFC is at 12 I don’t see another member coming in. Maybe the WAC would take UNC and NAU as a package but the WAC is damn near too damn big at this point. WAC losing SHSU and Chicago State after this season, but gaining SUU puts them at 12 but only 6 football schools. In theory going to 14/8 with NAU/UNC could work and doesn't expand their already massive footprint larger than it already is. UTRGV starting football in 2 years puts them at 14/9.

[Yote 53]

Holy War & Peace, Clenz. I guess I don't quite understand your vitriol for the Summit schools. You were pretty clear it was UNI and MOSU that were NO votes towards Murray State unless the Division and E/W ideas were dropped. Sounds like the Dakota schools were fine with it because they were repaying the favor of getting added to the conference over the last decade. The only two schools that would have problems with Divisions and E/W travel and were in a position to vote in the MVC were UNI and MOSU. Frankly, they are 100% correct in having issues with that kind of MVFC scheduling arrangement. The West would be far more difficult than the East. I'm glad they forced the issue and got those changes made.

What I don't understand is after outing the two MVC schools who were holding up Murray State to the MVC over football issues you then went after the Summit schools for talking about Summit Football. Yes, the voting power has shifted in the MVFC over to the MVC schools and you would have the numbers to go it alone if need be. Understand, the Summit school fans talking about Summit Football have nothing to do with animosity towards the MVC schools, it has to do with trying to stabilize the Summit overall. Summit Football is pretty much DOA anyways and the conference commissioner came out and stated as much. The only way I could ever see it happening is if UST went full scholarship, UNC joined the Summit for all sports, and UNO restarted their football program. All of those happening are extremely long shots.

[taper]

Clenz writes these books about the Summit because he's secretly scared to death of Summit football actually happening. Not because it will or won't, but because of what will have happened if we do get it. Summit's definitely on the upswing. The recently retired commissioner was great at keeping us together, and I'm very optimistic about the new one improving the league top to bottom. In contrast the MVC is going down. Creighton, Witchita St, and Loyola left the minute they had an offer. Think they're the only ones that will? Oral Roberts and Kansas City left the Summit in the early 2010's but came back in just a few years after finding out the grass wasn't actually greener. Think they'll make that mistake again lightly? WIU budget woes are a concern, but since the state of IL has no money the MVC SIU and ISUr are going to be facing the same problems pretty soon.
And here's what really burns Clenz: if these trends continue, within 10 years the Summit with UNI and MOST will be better than the MVC with UNI and MOST. At that point their best decision is to join the Summit for all sports and we have a great all sports conference.

[ElCid]

You can maybe start to look at someone like Duquesne or Robert Morris, though they are NEC schools who are all limited to 32 (maybe it's 40).



FYI Bob Morris is not NEC but Big South as of this past year. They may still have some limits but maybe not.

[nodak651]

Clenz writes these books about the Summit because he's secretly scared to death of Summit football actually happening. Not because it will or won't, but because of what will have happened if we do get it. Summit's definitely on the upswing. The recently retired commissioner was great at keeping us together, and I'm very optimistic about the new one improving the league top to bottom. In contrast the MVC is going down. Creighton, Witchita St, and Loyola left the minute they had an offer. Think they're the only ones that will? Oral Roberts and Kansas City left the Summit in the early 2010's but came back in just a few years after finding out the grass wasn't actually greener. Think they'll make that mistake again lightly? WIU budget woes are a concern, but since the state of IL has no money the MVC SIU and ISUr are going to be facing the same problems pretty soon.
And here's what really burns Clenz: if these trends continue, within 10 years the Summit with UNI and MOST will be better than the MVC with UNI and MOST. At that point their best decision is to join the Summit for all sports and we have a great all sports conference.

I somewhat agree.

To the hypothetical Summit football talk... What about a UCA invite to a Summit League with football? ORU travel partner.
Green Bay have a football study recently?

[Friday I'm in Love]

within 10 years the Summit with UNI and MOST will be better than the MVC with UNI and MOST. At that point their best decision is to join the Summit for all sports and we have a great all sports conference.

I have no dog in this fight, but if you take the 5-year KenPom average of every D1 school and apply to the future alignment of each conference:
MVC ranks 9th
Summit ranks 21st

The two leagues aren’t even close in MBB.

[taper]

I have no dog in this fight, but if you take the 5-year KenPom average of every D1 school and apply to the future alignment of each conference:
MVC ranks 9th
Summit ranks 21st

The two leagues aren’t even close in MBB.
That is true, but we are closing that large gap. You'd also need to run the stats with UNI/MOST on the other side and Loyola out of the picture.

[mmiller_34]

I have no dog in this fight, but if you take the 5-year KenPom average of every D1 school and apply to the future alignment of each conference:
MVC ranks 9th
Summit ranks 21st

The two leagues aren’t even close in MBB.

The two leagues are not close, true.

But...NDSU and SDSU could easily come in and compete in the MVC and fit it perfectly with the KenPom rankings. Without NDSU/SDSU, Summit would be far lower. ORU/USD/ even Omaha have competed recently, but it is consistently NDSU/SDSU at the top of the Summit each year.

With the recent trend, the MVC will likely target all the non-football playing schools in the Summit which will end up lowering their KenPom even more. UMKC?? Yikes.

[aceinthehole]

FYI Bob Morris is not NEC but Big South as of this past year. They may still have some limits but maybe not.

And for the record, the NEC allows up to 45 Scholarships + 18 Grants-in-aid for the FCS maximum 63 equivalencies.

Unlike the Ivy or Pioneer, NEC teams are all funding football to be "bowl counters" vs. FBS opponents.

[ST_Lawson]

WIU budget woes are a concern, but since the state of IL has no money the MVC SIU and ISUr are going to be facing the same problems pretty soon.

SIU has already been having issues, at least as far as enrollment is concerned. Now, they were starting a bit higher than WIU was, but over the last 10 years, SIU-C lost more students (as a %) than WIU did.

The biggest issue was the state budget impasse, which was the time from mid-2015 to mid-2017 where there was no regular funding for state institutions. What little funding came from the state was much lower than in previous years and done in "fits and spurts" (periodic emergency funding bills), so there was little ability to actually plan anything. This HEAVILY impacted the overall confidence in the sustainability of the state universities, which strongly impacted enrollment. Now, enrollment was declining anyway, but it really fell off a cliff for many state schools in 2016 and 2017. In that time, the only state schools that didn't lose a large number of students were Illinois, UIC, and Illinois State (the "flagships").

Over the last couple of years, however, the state budget has been slowly improving, university funding has gone back to a steady level and is done through the regular state budget (so the $ can be expected/planned for). Increased confidence in the state institutions has led to the decrease in enrollment essentially "flattening out" (WIU lost a total of 35 students from 2020 to 2021, even with the COVID pandemic going on).

I'm not saying there aren't budget issues with Illinois and with the state schools...but they're not as bad as many people seem to think, and they're slowly improving.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

clenz's blog posts here have to be in the running for Post of the Year, and it's only January 11th.

I kind of agree Summit FB seems unlikely due to all the reasons clenz mentioned (a much more informed take than mine). But what MIGHT make sense is my longshot thought from earlier about a second MVFC-like conference - maybe call it the OVFC, or "New Gateway". The Summit continues what it does and has done best, and that is manage all sports but football. The MVFC and OVFC become fairly powerful, more compact, regional conferences with a hodgepodge of different schools.

MVFC: UNI, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, YSU, ISUb, Mo. St., SEMO

OVFC: EIU, ISUr, WIU, SIU, Murray, Tenn Tech, UT Martin, Tennessee State

That's two eight-team conferences with a not-perfect breakdown, but not too bad. I think it would cut down on travel. You could even do a scheduling alliance. That's of course assuming the NCAA doesn't blow up these football-only style conferences, which, if they do, will fundamentally reshape FCS as we know it anyway.

To be clear, this wasn't what I thought the most likely end result would be, but there is some sense to it. In fact more and more from the OVC side it seems like some sort of OVFC, or conference merger, might be the way forward. If they can do that with the MVFC that would be a great solution for them, but it's admittedly a longshot.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not saying there aren't budget issues with Illinois and with the state schools...but they're not as bad as many people seem to think, and they're slowly improving.

In every state, it seems, to some degree these "crises" are manufactured by state legislatures. Pennsylvania has similar ones you don't hear about because it affects D-II for the most part. Louisiana's "crises" are becoming the stuff of legend at this point.

[clenz]

A couple USD/UND fans love to take my posts as "anti-Summit league, I hate all of you, and am scared"

I'm not. Genuinely. If you think you can make adding football work somehow, despite your options being more limited than any other conference in America then so be it. The Valley schools will survive. They were in a conference without the Dakota schools between 81 and 08 with them, and will continue to be out there without them if they leave. One of the two of the Summit and MVC currently has enough members for an autobid if the MVFC splits, and it isn't the Summit. YSU will pick one of the two to go with, and it isn't the Summit.

The reality is the MVFC, as it has existed since 2008, even with the additions of UND and USD is 1000 times better a solution for both the Summit and Valley schools than any other possibe outcome.

As far as the "Summit is going to catch an pass the Valley".....that's been said on these forums for at least 8 years. First it was "You'll never replace Creighton and the Dakota schools will pass everyone". Then it was "Wichita can't be replaced". Now it's Loyola. Meanwhile the Valley is brining in Belmont and Murray. The two best programs outside of the top 10-12 conferences in America. Ironically, the Valley traditionally is in the 9-12 range. The re-addition of ORU, keeping UMKC and UNO is supposed to make the Summit stronger than Belmont and Murray joining the MVC? The Summit is genuinely already closer to the last place conference in America than they are the Valley in terms of depth and quality. News flash, it won't.

ORU and UMKC, who left and came back, are already looking for an out again. Trust me. The number of phone calls both have had are more than you want to believe in your state of denial. The Summit is a better home than the SLC and WAC of the mid 10s, I'll grant you that.

WIU's budget concerns don't really translate to ISUr or SIU. ISUr is at record enrollment levels and has been growing the entire time Illinois has had their budget issues. Their endowment has gone up. Athletic budget has gone up. Donations have gone up. ISUr is actually quite healthy. SIU is just fine. They had a rough 2 or 3 years, as Lawson pointed out, but they've recovered pretty damn well since then. For a broke ass school they sure somehow had enough money to do a 100% renovation on their basketball arena, build a brand new football stadium, build a brand new baseball facility, build a brand new track and field facility, have a dedicate volleyball facility, all within the last decade.


I don't hate the Summit at all. Not even close. I'm sorry that pointed out the reality of starting football as a conference reads as me hating it. Though I'm guessing that's more a "you hate me" and it's a "I hate the Summit" issue.

There's a reason the Dakota schools joined the Gateway, and thus the new VFC, rather than rolling the GWFC into the Summit and making something happen there, an that was at a time where there were significantly more schools to be had. It's the best option for all involved.

Look at all the conferences in the south and east right now that are fighting to figure life out with all the movement. They all thought "We need to have our own football league" and "we need to stop other football leagues" and "we need to steal from other leagues" and the FCS is now full of conferences on the edge of collapse because you are spreading 1 ton of **** over 2 or 3 tons of space.

The Big South is going to be at 6, and could be in danger because I'm not convinced many/any of their members are happy. Kennesaw, UNA and Monmouth are all gone (ASUN, ASUN, and CAA)

The ASUN created some made up super conference sharing program with the Big South and now the ASUN is going to pillage the Big South, putting them in danger, just to get to the bare minimum on their own. The ASun also had to create a Frankenstein's Monster league this past year because neither them or the WAC had had enough members lined up for their first seasons sponsoring football. On top of that the WAC an ASUN both already lost members that they were counting on having for 2022.

How is the ASUN/Big South sharing of everything going to work itself out? Big South is in danger of losing an AQ. The ASUN is at 6 schools – EKU, KSU, APSU, UCA, UNA and JSU (who is gone after this year and isn't playoff eligible). That means by 2023 they are down to 5 and out of AQ status. They need a D2 or try to kill the OVC off more.

The WAC is at 7 official members this fall with SHSU having 1 more year as an affiliate member on their move to CUSA. Of their 7 programs 3 were D2 programs just a few years ago with 2 of them having just started their D1 transition. To gain members they are having satellite schools start up football to join the league in 3 or 4 years (UTRGV) and looking for more D2s to move up. I’ve heard rumblings of a couple WAC schools not being completely closed off to the idea of going back to the SLC – which would completely destroy WAC football again.

The SLC is at 6 and on the brink of collapse. The best option they have, and IIRC the action they took, is to get with the OVC to create a scheduling alliance because:

the OVC is going to be at 6 as of this fall and 5 as of 2023 with Murray joining the MVC/MVFC. They are o the phone begging about 6 D2s to move to D1 to save their league. The OVC is/has made calls to WIU. WIU has no interest, but if the Summit decides to venture west and try to grab Big Sky schools they’ll start to listen intently to the OVC.

Why would anyone in the VFC look at everything happening and go “You know, I know we have a great thing going here. Great conference. Like-minded institutions. Full schedules every year with no need to play 5 or 6 OOC games every year. No need to pay for that many OOC games. No nee to be on the road for that many OOC games. I just don’t think it’s worth it. I look around and see the complete **** show that all of the other conferences are going through and I want to put both the Summit and Valley into that same exact situation because the conference we play football in isn’t figure headed by the same person that figure heads the conference my basketball team plays in”

Again, the Valley has 6 members locked in. YSU makes 7. It’s not a good number. It’s not a safe number. However, the 6 Valley schools are locked together an in a conference that none of them are leaving and is a stable league. YSU isn’t going to affiliate in the Big South. They aren’t getting a CAA invite. The OVC is looking for all sports members, always has been, an has no interest in YSU (an I highly doubt YSU has any interest in them as they have a good set up in the Horizon and VFC). What the Summit has is 4 for sure, a hope they stick around, and “is this school isolated enough from anyone else and would be willing to join us”

All the other ideas of “Maybe the Valley schools and the OVC/SLC/****ing anyone else creating a new football only league and whatever other idea I can come up with” aren’t going to happen. The OVC/MVFC aren’t combining into a conference. The Valley schools aren’t splitting themselves for football between a Summit and OVC split. The Valley schools the schools with the most locked in security, why would they be the ones making the moves to split up from each other after 40 years to save the Summit and OVC?

[nodak651]

A couple USD/UND fans love to take my posts as "anti-Summit league, I hate all of you, and am scared"

I'm not. Genuinely. If you think you can make adding football work somehow, despite your options being more limited than any other conference in America then so be it. The Valley schools will survive. They were in a conference without the Dakota schools between 81 and 08 with them, and will continue to be out there without them if they leave. One of the two of the Summit and MVC currently has enough members for an autobid if the MVFC splits, and it isn't the Summit. YSU will pick one of the two to go with, and it isn't the Summit.

The reality is the MVFC, as it has existed since 2008, even with the additions of UND and USD is 1000 times better a solution for both the Summit and Valley schools than any other possibe outcome.


Uhhh.... Are you arguing with yourself? Is literally anyone saying the Summit SHOULD add football given current circumstances? Pretty sure the only comments were in regard to what Football Schools the league could invite and what it would actually mean for the mvc IF the Summit were at a point that starting football made sense, then what would the strategy be? Being that the Summit hasn't started football, and that there is no indication that they have plans to, and that nobody is arguing that they actually should right now, are you serious? Something like divisions would be hugely different than the current circumstances, which I think everyone seems to be happy with? It's almost like you have little man syndrome? Just because people are discussing something, it doesn't necessarily mean they think that is what should happen now. But things do change... and at that point, if events or new circumstances make it worthwhile for the Summit to start football, the way everything is now isn't the way it will be at that point - cost benefit calculations will change. For example, maybe someday the Summit decides to start football and hockey for branding purposes, so that championship success in those sports can be used to improve league image/branding/TV, to improve membership stability, and save probably 500K+ in overhead, for the good of the league as a whole? Perception is reality after all.

For the record. I AM NOT saying the Summit should do anything right now. I do not think they should add sports at this moment, but my point is that it isn't as black as white as your are trying to make it seem, because not everything is always about a single sport, as we have all seen with the MVC seriously considering UTA and UMKC of all schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Again, the Valley has 6 members locked in. YSU makes 7. It’s not a good number. It’s not a safe number. However, the 6 Valley schools are locked together an in a conference that none of them are leaving and is a stable league. YSU isn’t going to affiliate in the Big South. They aren’t getting a CAA invite. The OVC is looking for all sports members, always has been, an has no interest in YSU (an I highly doubt YSU has any interest in them as they have a good set up in the Horizon and VFC). What the Summit has is 4 for sure, a hope they stick around, and “is this school isolated enough from anyone else and would be willing to join us”

All the other ideas of “Maybe the Valley schools and the OVC/SLC/****ing anyone else creating a new football only league and whatever other idea I can come up with” aren’t going to happen. The OVC/MVFC aren’t combining into a conference. The Valley schools aren’t splitting themselves for football between a Summit and OVC split. The Valley schools the schools with the most locked in security, why would they be the ones making the moves to split up from each other after 40 years to save the Summit and OVC?

I admit the idea of a OVFC probably isn't the first choice of anybody, however you can really keep travel costs down in a league like:

WIU, EIU, SIU, ISUr, Tennessee Tech, Tennessee State, Murray, UT Martin

Every team plays each other, two cross-state trips a year. 6 hour bus ride from Macomb to Martin - maybe all bus trips? Preserve some in-state Rivalry games and some of them become conference games instead of OOC. If you're Illinois State, suddenly you can schedule 2 FBS teams and no longer waste a spot on EIU OOC every year.

It's not so much "saving the OVC" as it is improving the bottom line of MVC football schools. I didn't propose it as a way to save a conference.

[clenz]

ISUr isn’t wasting a spot on EIU. They’ve played for something like 110 years.

ISUR replacing UNI or NDSU with UTM isn’t helping them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[clenz]

Per Matt Brown. Western accepted a bid to the OVC but then backed off when the OVC wanted their entrance fee. The Summit agreed to waive the exit fee.

Still a maybe. Apparently, WIU wants them to invite Chicago State as well. Everything still on the table. CSU needs a home 7/1 and is looking at football.

Summit league football dead.

But a spot for UNC is now open in the summit and MVFC is this happens

And it could be the straw to send NAU to the WAC


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[taper]

Per Matt Brown. Western accepted a bid to the OVC but then backed off when the OVC wanted their entrance fee. The Summit agreed to waive the exit fee.

Still a maybe. Apparently, WIU wants them to invite Chicago State as well. Everything still on the table. CSU needs a home 7/1 and is looking at football.

Summit league football dead.

But a spot for UNC is now open in the summit and MVFC is this happens

And it could be the straw to send NAU to the WAC


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How can something that's never been alive be dead? You're just confirming my view that you're scared to death of it eventually happening.

[ST_Lawson]

Apparently, WIU wants them to invite Chicago State as well.

Like hell we do.

[clenz]

Like hell we do.
There are plenty of people I would question - Matt Brown isn't exactly one of them

[SDFS]

There are plenty of people I would question - Matt Brown isn't exactly one of them

I would agree with that...

[ST_Lawson]

There are plenty of people I would question - Matt Brown isn't exactly one of them

Fair enough. I guess I should have said...

Like hell we (myself and a number of other Leatherneck fans) do. They are, by more than 1,000 students, the smallest public university in Illinois (smaller than DII UI-Springfield or NAIA Governors State). They need to realize that and drop the whole trying to be a DI school thing. Save some money, go NAIA, join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference, invest in improving the quality of education for their students. Don't try to start up a football program when you already can't be successful at any other sports.

Brown has been very accurate on many realignment rumors, and my opinion has very little to do with what our AD and university president might want.

[ysubigred]

Fair enough. I guess I should have said...

Like hell we (myself and a number of other Leatherneck fans) do. They are, by more than 1,000 students, the smallest public university in Illinois (smaller than DII UI-Springfield or NAIA Governors State). They need to realize that and drop the whole trying to be a DI school thing. Save some money, go NAIA, join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference, invest in improving the quality of education for their students. Don't try to start up a football program when you already can't be successful at any other sports.

Brown has been very accurate on many realignment rumors, and my opinion has very little to do with what our AD and university president might want.Don't know much about all WIU sports but you all seem better off than the flightless birds last year [emoji848]

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[WestCoastAggie]

Fair enough. I guess I should have said...

Like hell we (myself and a number of other Leatherneck fans) do. They are, by more than 1,000 students, the smallest public university in Illinois (smaller than DII UI-Springfield or NAIA Governors State). They need to realize that and drop the whole trying to be a DI school thing. Save some money, go NAIA, join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference, invest in improving the quality of education for their students. Don't try to start up a football program when you already can't be successful at any other sports.

Brown has been very accurate on many realignment rumors, and my opinion has very little to do with what our AD and university president might want.

From my understanding, Chicago State is under the belief that starting football, at least on the non-scholarship side, will help bolster enrollment. I also heard they are starting a marching band. They're probably going to go all-in on providing a Black college experience although they aren't a federally designated HBCU.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From my understanding, Chicago State is under the belief that starting football, at least on the non-scholarship side, will help bolster enrollment. I also heard they are starting a marching band. They're probably going to go all-in on providing a Black college experience although they aren't a federally designated HBCU.

It should, because adding a non-scholarship football team adds 30+ tuition-paying* males to the school annually. Marching band may add to that number as well.

[SDFS]

Per Matt Brown. Western accepted a bid to the OVC but then backed off when the OVC wanted their entrance fee. The Summit agreed to waive the exit fee. Still a maybe. Apparently, WIU wants them to invite Chicago State as well. Everything still on the table. CSU needs a home 7/1 and is looking at football.


The one thing that seems odd with this information is that an entrance fee would be a sticking point. If you are the OVC and you trying to keep your doors open. You would think it would be "Welcome abroad can I get that bag for you - thank you very much for joining us" type of greeting. The OVC would be very flexible in working with WIU on the entrance fee. It doesn't seem like that would be an issue if two parties really wanted to work together. It feels like someone got cold feet.

[Bisonator]

The one thing that seems odd with this information is that an entrance fee would be a sticking point. If you are the OVC and you trying to keep your doors open. You would think it would be "Welcome abroad can I get that bag for you - thank you very much for joining us" type of greeting. The OVC would be very flexible in working with WIU on the entrance fee. It doesn't seem like that would be an issue if two parties really wanted to work together. It feels like someone got cold feet.
No **** for a conference desperately trying to survive demanding an entrance fee seems extremely stupid. Does the OVC lack that much self awareness? xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No **** for a conference desperately trying to survive demanding an entrance fee seems extremely stupid. Does the OVC lack that much self awareness? xlolx

Or maybe the rumor was bull**** to begin with?

[WestCoastAggie]

So who's going to be the team that joins the Dakotas in the MVFC west when the Racers join in 2023?

[WestCoastAggie]

It should, because adding a non-scholarship football team adds 30+ tuition-paying* males to the school annually. Marching band may add to that number as well.

I was thinking more so around 85+ with most as pell grant recipients and fed loans.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I was thinking more so around 85+ with most as pell grant recipients and fed loans.

Right, over a 4-5 year period. As many as 30 per incoming class, or so.

[ST_Lawson]

From my understanding, Chicago State is under the belief that starting football, at least on the non-scholarship side, will help bolster enrollment. I also heard they are starting a marching band. They're probably going to go all-in on providing a Black college experience although they aren't a federally designated HBCU.

Ok...but they could still do all that at the NAIA level if they wanted to, or they could drop to DII and see about joining the SIAC (if they'd take them...I don't think Chicago State's academics are anywhere close to the standard of some of the SAIC's members like Morehouse or Tuskegee though). They'd be much more competitive either of those places than trying to remain DI, where they have had very little success in any sport in the last decade or so.

If they want to be a HBCU-style school with a football team and marching band, that's great...but they don't need to stay DI to do it. Also, idk that the Ohio Valley is the place to do it (especially if TN State ends up heading to the SWAC, as has been occasionally rumored). They'd get bigger crowds hosting the previously-mentioned Morehouse or Tuskegee than they would hosting UT-Martin or SEMO. Travel would be a bit longer in the SAIC than the OVC, but still less than the WAC that they were in previously.

[Mike296]

Ok...but they could still do all that at the NAIA level if they wanted to, or they could drop to DII and see about joining the SIAC (if they'd take them...I don't think Chicago State's academics are anywhere close to the standard of some of the SAIC's members like Morehouse or Tuskegee though). They'd be much more competitive either of those places than trying to remain DI, where they have had very little success in any sport in the last decade or so.

If they want to be a HBCU-style school with a football team and marching band, that's great...but they don't need to stay DI to do it. Also, idk that the Ohio Valley is the place to do it (especially if TN State ends up heading to the SWAC, as has been occasionally rumored). They'd get bigger crowds hosting the previously-mentioned Morehouse or Tuskegee than they would hosting UT-Martin or SEMO. Travel would be a bit longer in the SAIC than the OVC, but still less than the WAC that they were in previously.

Realistically NAIA is their best fit in the Chicagoland but I really don’t think they would do a Hartford and drop down like that. If they wanted to go D2 the best fits geographically are the GLVC and GLIAC and if they really want to go D3 I think they would be a decent fit in the CCIW. It would give Carthage College in Wisconsin a closer school to play against as that school is sort of out on an island in the CCIW(in football).

[WestCoastAggie]

Ok...but they could still do all that at the NAIA level if they wanted to, or they could drop to DII and see about joining the SIAC (if they'd take them...I don't think Chicago State's academics are anywhere close to the standard of some of the SAIC's members like Morehouse or Tuskegee though). They'd be much more competitive either of those places than trying to remain DI, where they have had very little success in any sport in the last decade or so.

If they want to be a HBCU-style school with a football team and marching band, that's great...but they don't need to stay DI to do it. Also, idk that the Ohio Valley is the place to do it (especially if TN State ends up heading to the SWAC, as has been occasionally rumored). They'd get bigger crowds hosting the previously-mentioned Morehouse or Tuskegee than they would hosting UT-Martin or SEMO. Travel would be a bit longer in the SAIC than the OVC, but still less than the WAC that they were in previously.

Those crowds still pale in comparison to what they could get if they join the PFL. They could end up playing Jackson State in the Chicago Football Classic or something, demanding more revenue as a D1 program than they could as a D2 or NAIA program.

I wouldn't do it If I were their President but hey... They've hopefully performed the necessary studies to confirm this is the best decision for them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those crowds still pale in comparison to what they could get if they join the PFL. They could end up playing Jackson State in the Chicago Football Classic or something, demanding more revenue as a D1 program than they could as a D2 or NAIA program.

I wouldn't do it If I were their President but hey... They've hopefully performed the necessary studies to confirm this is the best decision for them.

The revenue from an annual appearance at the Chicago Football Classic could fund the entire athletic department for a year, possibly.

[clenz]

No **** for a conference desperately trying to survive demanding an entrance fee seems extremely stupid. Does the OVC lack that much self awareness? xlolx
The answer is they probably do lack that self awareness

But

They're going to find people to pay it so you might as well get the money you can, especially with JSU and EKU refusing to pay their million dollar exit fee

Again, there are a lot of people I'd go "They got bad information and/or are making it up"

Matt Brown isn't that guy.

He's mentioned it is still on going so it comes off as negotiations are still on going and depending who else comes in the fee may or may not be worth it.

[ST_Lawson]

Looks like Southern Indiana (no football) is planning on moving up to DI and joining the OVC. Chicago State to the OVC is a "no-go".

https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1486064561816051713

[SDFS]

Looks like Southern Indiana (no football) is planning on moving up to DI and joining the OVC. Chicago State to the OVC is a "no-go".

https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1486064561816051713

Any word on what OVC is going to do with football? Other conferences they could work with include: Big South (5), Southland (6) and MEAC (6). And now that LU and JSU have left A-Sun for FBS is the A-Sun still planning on going FBS?

[WestCoastAggie]

Any word on what OVC is going to do with football? Other conferences they could work with include: Big South (5), Southland (6) and MEAC (6). And now that LU and JSU have left A-Sun for FBS is the A-Sun still planning on going FBS?

The OVC could soon be at 8 football teams once Grand Valley and Ferris State make their decisions.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Looks like Southern Indiana (no football) is planning on moving up to DI and joining the OVC. Chicago State to the OVC is a "no-go".

https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1486064561816051713

Couldn't they start football?

[SDFS]

The OVC could soon be at 8 football teams once Grand Valley and Ferris State make their decisions.

interesting I hadn't heard that.. GV will be a nice move up.

[ST_Lawson]

Couldn't they start football?

They could...but from my perspective, it doesn't feel like they're actually going to go through with it. I could be wrong, but they have a lot of other issues they need to deal with that would make them not very attractive to many conferences...issues that starting a football team won't really fix.

[dbackjon]

Per Matt Brown. Western accepted a bid to the OVC but then backed off when the OVC wanted their entrance fee. The Summit agreed to waive the exit fee.

Still a maybe. Apparently, WIU wants them to invite Chicago State as well. Everything still on the table. CSU needs a home 7/1 and is looking at football.

Summit league football dead.

But a spot for UNC is now open in the summit and MVFC is this happens

And it could be the straw to send NAU to the WAC


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Why would NAU care if UNC went to the Summit?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Relevant

https://twitter.com/RoccoMiller8/status/1486032709373759492

[wapiti]

Relevant

https://twitter.com/RoccoMiller8/status/1486032709373759492

I've been told MVC is different than the MVFC. So this announcement does not mean Ill-Chicago will have football in MVFC.

[clenz]

Looks like Southern Indiana (no football) is planning on moving up to DI and joining the OVC. Chicago State to the OVC is a "no-go".

https://twitter.com/low_madness/status/1486064561816051713
Sounds like Chicago State and the MEAC have some chatter - the HBCU Classics world is their apparent target. (?)

I've heard GVSU and Ferris but those links have not had any recent updates

If the OVC was smart they would drop the entry fee bull****, which is apparently the WIU hold up

With/if GVSU and Ferris, drop the entry fee to get WIU, plus UALR coming in and now Southern Indiana you actually have a safe (well as safe as it can be right now) conference that is ideal for scheduling

You'd have 12 members in all sports and 8 in football. 7 conference games 4 OOC games - meaning extra FBS for those that want them or an extra game to save some rivalry games from the shuffling. For basketball and what not you go 20 conference games, leaving only 10-11 OOC games to find, minus the MTE and you only have to worry about 7 games each season for scheduling. That's an AD dream really.

I don't really want to lose WIU out of the MVFC. As a UNI fan we are entering our 5th decade sharing a football home with WIU. We are only 3ish hours apart. In terms of school colors they are as close to identical as you can get (exact same pantone yellow and the purple is only one or two shades different). The two are so very different, yet feel so much like siblings in a way. Sadly, I really do think it's in WIU's best long term interest to actually look at that (if that does end up being the potential set up) and put a significant amount of thought into it.

[clenz]

Relevant

https://twitter.com/RoccoMiller8/status/1486032709373759492
In terms of the MVFC this is meaningless.

UIC doesn't sponsor football. Won't sponsor football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In terms of the MVFC this is meaningless.

UIC doesn't sponsor football. Won't sponsor football.

However gives the MVC one more full member.

[SDFS]

Sounds like Chicago State and the MEAC have some chatter - the HBCU Classics world is their apparent target. (?)

I've heard GVSU and Ferris but those links have not had any recent updates

If the OVC was smart they would drop the entry fee bull****, which is apparently the WIU hold up

With/if GVSU and Ferris, drop the entry fee to get WIU, plus UALR coming in and now Southern Indiana you actually have a safe (well as safe as it can be right now) conference that is ideal for scheduling


If GVSU and Ferris do move into the Ohio Valley. It feels like a NDSU/SDSU move into the SL/MVFC when the NCC (D-II) was breaking apart. Just like the Summit League slowly moving west with - Oakland, IUPUI, Purdue-FW, Centenary and WIU in your scenario leaving the conference and UND/USD/Omaha/Denver/STU moving into the conference. Is the next step for the Ohio Valley to slowly move the southern schools (UT-Martin, Ten St, Ten Tech and SEMO) over to the A-Sun and then take on the some of the remaining larger GLIAC schools Mich Tech, N Mich and Wayne St.

Reviewed a couple of articles about the GLIAC last night and that conference appears to be in trouble and reads like the NCC in the early 2000's when UNC was leaving. GLIAC coaches openly talking about FCS and recruits talking about OVC in 2023.

[ST_Lawson]

I don't really want to lose WIU out of the MVFC. As a UNI fan we are entering our 5th decade sharing a football home with WIU. We are only 3ish hours apart. In terms of school colors they are as close to identical as you can get (exact same pantone yellow and the purple is only one or two shades different). The two are so very different, yet feel so much like siblings in a way.

I feel the same way...lots of friends who are UNI alumni (including both of my in-laws) and have been to games at the UNIDome many times. Missing out on that and the series with Illinois State would be a huge loss. I get that we'd be picking up a "local" series with EIU, but that would be our closest at 3 1/2 hours away (as opposed to ILSU at 2 and UNI at 3).

I think OVC football with the two potential Michigan teams would maybe save us a little bit on travel. OVC for the other sports is a much bigger savings for us, which is why I'm still holding out hope that the OVC could drop football as a sponsored sport and we could join a non-football OVC. I think that would be ideal for us...travel in the Summit is pretty rough and we have a bigger basketball rivalry and more of a history with OVC's EIU than with any of the schools in the Summit League.

[Laker]

I don't really want to lose WIU out of the MVFC. As a UNI fan we are entering our 5th decade sharing a football home with WIU.

I'm so old I remember watching UNI playing in Mankato's Otto Arena in D2 NCC basketball.

[Sycamore62]

I'm so old I remember watching UNI playing in Mankato's Otto Arena in D2 NCC basketball.

Im so old I barely remember anything.

#CTE

[JacksFan40]

Screw this let’s just grab UNC and bring back the NCC. St. Thomas can come with and try and get Omaha to revive their football program.

None of this will happen but it’s better than this crap.

[nodak651]

Screw this let’s just grab UNC and bring back the NCC. St. Thomas can come with and try and get Omaha to revive their football program.

None of this will happen but it’s better than this crap.

St. Thomas was a founding member. Left the conference in 1928.

[ST_Lawson]

Screw this let’s just grab UNC and bring back the NCC. St. Thomas can come with and try and get Omaha to revive their football program.

None of this will happen but it’s better than this crap.

So then you have the often-rumored "Summit League Football" with NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNC, UST, UNO...maybe try to convince MN State to move up also to get you to 8 teams.

Then the MVFC is: ILSU, INSU, MOSU, MUSU, UNI, SIU, WIU, YSU

Everyone plays everyone in their conference (7 games) plus maybe a "challenge series" with the other conference whereby you play 1 or 2 games a year as H&H agreements (but less structured than the current MVFC "rotation"...more like how the MVFC often schedules H&H games with Big Sky teams (https://bigskyconf.com/news/2021/9/1/football-big-sky-missouri-valley-challenge-returns-with-six-matchups-in-2021.aspx)). That leaves everyone with 2-3 other non-conference games that they can then schedule as FBS $$$ games, paying a Pioneer League or DII team to come and play as a 1-off, etc.

[SDFS]

But, it's not Summit League football without WIU.

[clenz]

So then you have the often-rumored "Summit League Football" with NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNC, UST, UNO...maybe try to convince MN State to move up also to get you to 8 teams.

Then the MVFC is: ILSU, INSU, MOSU, MUSU, UNI, SIU, WIU, YSU

Everyone plays everyone in their conference (7 games) plus maybe a "challenge series" with the other conference whereby you play 1 or 2 games a year as H&H agreements (but less structured than the current MVFC "rotation"...more like how the MVFC often schedules H&H games with Big Sky teams (https://bigskyconf.com/news/2021/9/1/football-big-sky-missouri-valley-challenge-returns-with-six-matchups-in-2021.aspx)). That leaves everyone with 2-3 other non-conference games that they can then schedule as FBS $$$ games, paying a Pioneer League or DII team to come and play as a 1-off, etc.

Contrary to the accusations I’m not afraid of Summit football

Your split could make sense but UNO isn’t bringing football back. The way they got to be D1 was dropping football and wrestling because UNL wasn’t letting them move with it. The only reason they were allowed to move by the UN system was they were to become a hockey school. Their football stadium has been completely renovated away from football as a use and the cost to renovate back AND for D1 football is going to be extreme prohibitive before looking at anything else.

Laker can hit this more than me but seeing one of the D2s move D1 seems VERY unlikely. I know the MSU system is separate from the UM system but I can’t imagine another public D1 being a thing in Minnesota. I'd also argue we have too many D1s the way it is, and adding another one in that area of the county in a small town isn't the way to go.

UST being a private school UMM couldn’t do anything about it. They don’t seem like they want to be a full scholarship team. They seemed to use football as the vehicle to move everything else. Maybe I’m wrong.

That league could work and scheduling OOC games between the Valley, Summit, and Big Sky would work just fine.

I just don’t know how it happens or is worth all of the moves needed to make it happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[clenz]

I feel the same way...lots of friends who are UNI alumni (including both of my in-laws) and have been to games at the UNIDome many times. Missing out on that and the series with Illinois State would be a huge loss. I get that we'd be picking up a "local" series with EIU, but that would be our closest at 3 1/2 hours away (as opposed to ILSU at 2 and UNI at 3).

I think OVC football with the two potential Michigan teams would maybe save us a little bit on travel. OVC for the other sports is a much bigger savings for us, which is why I'm still holding out hope that the OVC could drop football as a sponsored sport and we could join a non-football OVC. I think that would be ideal for us...travel in the Summit is pretty rough and we have a bigger basketball rivalry and more of a history with OVC's EIU than with any of the schools in the Summit League.
I'm starting to wonder if the key to WIU going OVC and Murray coming MVFC is each other.

The MVFC could be waiting to see if WIU goes OVC before giving the final approval and year of joining for Murray. If WIU goes OVC then Murray slides in easily and just takes the WIU slot in the schedule rotation. If WIU and the OVC never happens then the schedules need to be blown up for the third time in 5 years - UND coming in, COVID, and Murray coming in. I'm betting the Valley would like to avoid that if they could.

[Laker]

Laker can hit this more than me but seeing one of the D2s move D1 seems VERY unlikely. I know the MSU system is separate from the UM system but I can’t imagine another public D1 being a thing in Minnesota.

UST being a private school UMM couldn’t do anything about it. They don’t seem like they want to be a full scholarship team. They seemed to use football as the vehicle to move everything else. Maybe I’m wrong.

I was at a booster meeting about six weeks before Tarleton announced their move up from D2. The speaker was from a company that investigates if you are ready to go or should stay where you are at. He told me that TSU would move within six weeks and he was right. Since the Mavs are already in hockey for D1, it seemed like only basketball was really interested in going D1- the rest of the room seemed to prefer D2 if I read it right. Football would either be dropped or join the Pioneer (which wasn't a popular move either). Blakeslee Stadium has some of the best sight lines anywhere- you couldn't be closer to the action, which is actually a danger to the players- not from the fans but from the concrete. The old gal needs to be replaced. I was hoping that when Glen Taylor sold the T-Wolves that he would build a new one- the Taylor Center for basketball is already named for him. With Covid and the weather I haven't heard anything for awhile- and neither have the people who I depend on for information.

MSU is the only MN public school that could even think about moving up. St Cloud, where I know a number of fans, has become a joke after dropping football and track. Their enrollment has gone down by about a third.

St John's loves being the top dog in the D3 world. A male's only school with the women's school St Ben's being just a few miles away won't be following their big rival St Thomas.

[clenz]

I was at a booster meeting about six weeks before Tarleton announced their move up from D2. The speaker was from a company that investigates if you are ready to go or should stay where you are at. He told me that TSU would move within six weeks and he was right. Since the Mavs are already in hockey for D1, it seemed like only basketball was really interested in going D1- the rest of the room seemed to prefer D2 if I read it right. Football would either be dropped or join the Pioneer (which wasn't a popular move either). Blakeslee Stadium has some of the best sight lines anywhere- you couldn't be closer to the action, which is actually a danger to the players- not from the fans but from the concrete. The old gal needs to be replaced. I was hoping that when Glen Taylor sold the T-Wolves that he would build a new one- the Taylor Center for basketball is already named for him. With Covid and the weather I haven't heard anything for awhile- and neither have the people who I depend on for information.

MSU is the only MN public school that could even think about moving up. St Cloud, where I know a number of fans, has become a joke after dropping football and track. Their enrollment has gone down by about a third.

St John's loves being the top dog in the D3 world. A male's only school with the women's school St Ben's being just a few miles away won't be following their big rival St Thomas.
I don't see any of the D2s being willing to to PFL. Sure, it's D1 football but for most public schools the cost analysis comes out to be if you're going to play you need to play scholarship and try to get to X number of fans and donations and what not. There have been a number of publics schools that have done studies to move up, stay fcs, go non-scholarship, or drop to D2 and every single one has had play non-scholarship as the last or second to last option. PFLs for a small private school tends to work out math wise. Take a look at the PFL - there isn't a single public school in it, and I'm not sure there ever has been. I'm not saying it couldn't/wouldn't work but it just doesn't ever be seen as a "viable" solution for any public that has looked at it.

I guess for Mankato the willingness to fund scholarship might be worth it to be with the Dakota 4, but to do that on top of the hockey budget, at a school that size seems to be a tall order.

I haven't been to Blakeslee in a long while, but you are right about the sightlines. It's similar to the UNIDome in that regard. The seats in the UNIDome are raised above the sidelines and the benches for seating are placed under the overhang. The problem is the bottom of the concrete overhang is maybe 5' high. It's a big tighter than Blakeslee AFAIK. The fans are literally in the sideline with the players. Great for sight, but dangerous. The number of players Ive seen run into that - because it's maybe 5 or 6 feet from the sideline - is more than I can count. A couple years ago they finally padded the edges outside of "the box" to the end wall.

I don't know what level of upgrades would be needed, as I haven't been there in years and haven't followed it closely, but in 2022 and beyond it's not a small number to do it, I'm betting. Especially with the Vikings now having TCO and not using it anymore.

I'm not going to say MSU couldn't do it from a population standpoint or enrollment stand point - they crush USD, SDSU in that regard and aren't terribly aren't behind Grand Forks in population (with significantly better location, which makes up the population different IMO).

[NDSU1980]

So then you have the often-rumored "Summit League Football" with NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, UNC, UST, UNO...maybe try to convince MN State to move up also to get you to 8 teams.

Then the MVFC is: ILSU, INSU, MOSU, MUSU, UNI, SIU, WIU, YSU

Everyone plays everyone in their conference (7 games) plus maybe a "challenge series" with the other conference whereby you play 1 or 2 games a year as H&H agreements (but less structured than the current MVFC "rotation"...more like how the MVFC often schedules H&H games with Big Sky teams (https://bigskyconf.com/news/2021/9/1/football-big-sky-missouri-valley-challenge-returns-with-six-matchups-in-2021.aspx)). That leaves everyone with 2-3 other non-conference games that they can then schedule as FBS $$$ games, paying a Pioneer League or DII team to come and play as a 1-off, etc.
Summit League football fortunately is dead in the water. And I still can't figure out what the fascination with SL football is in the first place. Why would you want to abandon the MVFC for something less? Just makes zero sense.

[clenz]

Summit League football fortunately is dead in the water. And I still can't figure out what the fascination with SL football is in the first place. Why would you want to abandon the MVFC for something less? Just makes zero sense.
From the SL stand point adding it means you have another sport under the NCAA umbrella to make sure you don't risk losing AQs in all sports.

That's about it.

The MVFC (GFC before) is a perfect solution for the MVC and Summit League though in terms of being a "safe" home for all of the programs.

I really think the best route for the Big South, ASUN, OVC and maybe even the MEAC is to just form 2 football only conferences if they are able to make sure their Olympic conferences are safe.

[Professor Chaos]

Summit League football fortunately is dead in the water. And I still can't figure out what the fascination with SL football is in the first place. Why would you want to abandon the MVFC for something less? Just makes zero sense.
BF02 made a good point that it helps to recruit schools with football programs into the Summit by having a guaranteed football home for them so they don't have to go searching for a conference separately for their football team. The MVFC and the MVC/Summit are separate entities so there's no guarantee admission into the Summit means admission into the MVFC.

That said I think the Summit is a fairly stable conferences so having the MVFC as essentially an FCS super-conference is good for all existing football programs in it. There are advantages to SL football but I think the advantages of the MVFC are greater for the existing Summit/MVFC schools (as of now).

[ST_Lawson]

But, it's not Summit League football without WIU.

Unless we take our other sports to the OVC...then we're not Summit League anymore.



...
That league could work and scheduling OOC games between the Valley, Summit, and Big Sky would work just fine.

I just don’t know how it happens or is worth all of the moves needed to make it happen.

Oh, I'm well aware that it will never happen. It was more of a "hey, wouldn't this be neat..." sort of idea.



...Blakeslee Stadium has some of the best sight lines anywhere- you couldn't be closer to the action, which is actually a danger to the players- not from the fans but from the concrete

Could also be a danger to the fans...I feel like if you trip on the steps anywhere in the lower half of the stands at Blakeslee, you'd land about 10 yards out onto the field.



Take a look at the PFL - there isn't a single public school in it, and I'm not sure there ever has been. I'm not saying it couldn't/wouldn't work but it just doesn't ever be seen as a "viable" solution for any public that has looked at it.

Assuming PFL=Pioneer Football League, Morehead State is public. Also Austin Peay was a member from '01-'06. I do agree with you that non-scholarship rarely seems to work out if you're not a private school.



Summit League football fortunately is dead in the water. And I still can't figure out what the fascination with SL football is in the first place. Why would you want to abandon the MVFC for something less? Just makes zero sense.

Purely selfish reasons. If my options are for WIU to play football in whatever the OVC is turning into or for WIU to play football in a "pared down" MVFC where the Dakotas and some other schools leave to rebuild the old NCC into Summit League Football, then I'm going to pick the "pared down" MVFC every time. And it feels like the MVFC as it currently stands (plus the potential addition of Murray State) is becoming too big and unwieldy. I have nothing against the Dakota schools and am fine playing them, but we've got a lot of history with ILSU, SIU, and to a lesser extent UNI, MOSU, and INSU. If I have to pick one group to stick with, personally, it'd have to be the ones closest to us.

[DFW HOYA]

Assuming PFL=Pioneer Football League, Morehead State is public. Also Austin Peay was a member from '01-'06. I do agree with you that non-scholarship rarely seems to work out if you're not a private school.

There have been others over the years: Towson, Central Connecticut, Stony Brook.

It's not that non-scholarship doesn't work out, it's that the lower cost of tuition is a easier hurdle to overcome by offering scholarships than schools where it can be 5x or even 8x more expensive to do so, or, for those with an added constraint, an enrollment cap. Many schools can add extra enrollment to cover the cost, while schools with a cap are, in effect, subtracting revenue-paying students with athletic scholarship adds.

[Laker]

Could also be a danger to the fans...I feel like if you trip on the steps anywhere in the lower half of the stands at Blakeslee, you'd land about 10 yards out onto the field.

I sit on the end of the row in front of the press box. If it was me rolling down the steps, I'd probably get launched out to midfield. At least it is natural grass........

[clenz]

Because it's always fun to see the yearly "Valley falling apart, within a couplle years the Summit is passing them"

Latest basketball ratings

Valley sitting 9th in the nation and will be trading one top 50 program for two top 50 programs.


https://twitter.com/haslametrics/status/1488156232313626629?s=20&t=ri4xHwcdw8xVc2ldYyi7mQ

Summit sitting at 21 and being carried by SDSU at 66 and ORU at 107. Third place NDSU is 168

Valley has 6 higher than NDSU - and is being boat anchored by Evansville at 325

[nodak651]

Because it's always fun to see the yearly "Valley falling apart, within a couplle years the Summit is passing them"

Latest basketball ratings

Valley sitting 9th in the nation and will be trading one top 50 program for two top 50 programs.


https://twitter.com/haslametrics/status/1488156232313626629?s=20&t=ri4xHwcdw8xVc2ldYyi7mQ

Summit sitting at 21 and being carried by SDSU at 66 and ORU at 107. Third place NDSU is 168

Valley has 6 higher than NDSU - and is being boat anchored by Evansville at 325

I think a lot of the talk started when the MVC was looking at adding UTA and UMKC, to be fair. At that point, couldn't you see more of a reason for the MVFC Valley schools to just say screw it? Maybe not. But you would have been replacing a top 50 program with two average low major programs at best, who also wouldn't bring any fans to arch madness.

[clenz]

The talk has been coming from Summit VFC school fan bases for years

A younger me would go find all of them in AGS and link them. They littered threads for years every time SLF came up, just like they did in this thread.

The Summit should have passed the Valley 4 times by now based on the sky is falling predictions the last 12 years, going back to when USD was added and a year later Creighton went big east. Then when WSU left for the AAC in 2017. Then Loyola leaving was proof and they are replaced by teams with longer histories of being good than Loyola.

The irony of your take though, not from you really but general irony from things I’ve seen including in this thread, is that keeping UMKC, ORU, and UNO is a reason the summit is on the way up to over take the Valley.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Southern Indiana to the OVC. No football, as mentioned, but does give the all-sports conference more stability.

[clenz]

Matt Brown had a few tweets last night that indicate this is just the start of a long series of waterfall movements at the lower end of the D1 spectrum

Including mentioning at least one merger on the football side of FCS leagues resulting in sharing of one auto-bid rather than both having their own.

Southland, OVC, A-Sun, and Big South all candidates in that. I think the most likely situation is a Big South/A-Sun merger given they have had this weird "are they f-ing or are they not" situation for the last few years.

OVC/SLC already have said they will have a scheduling agreement. OVC moves to add more members could impact that moving forward.

[UNAPride]

Southern Indiana to the OVC. No football, as mentioned, but does give the all-sports conference more stability.

Will likely be competitive in men's basketball immediately. Much like Bellarmine in the ASUN. Both coming from the same D2 conference - GLVC.

https://www.courierpress.com/story/sports/college/southern-indiana/2022/02/09/usi-athletics-join-ohio-valley-conference-division-1-sports/6699711001/

[UNAPride]

From Craig Haley's Twitter:

#FCS (https://twitter.com/hashtag/FCS?src=hashtag_click): The Missouri Valley Football Conference is expected to announce tomorrow the addition of Murray State, beginning with the 2023 season, sources indicate. The Racers will be the league’s 12th member.

https://twitter.com/CraigHaley/status/1510761524259864582?s=20&t=i930LglYDJ4ChWUCCOoEkw (https://twitter.com/CraigHaley/status/1510761524259864582?s=20&t=i930LglYDJ4ChWUCCOoEkw)

[NDB]

Boo.

MVFC is now a 12-team football-only conference.

F#ckin' stupid. Time to leave.

[clenz]

Boo.

MVFC is now a 12-team football-only conference.

F#ckin' stupid. Time to leave.
Ok. Bye

[NDB]

I understand. Only way you'll sniff a conference championship...

[taper]

Hey guys, be nice to clenz. He's just salty that the men's MVC and Summit earned the same number of units in this year's March Madness, and that the Summit women went to the Sweet 16 and the Valley didn't. The fact that Summit football is becoming more likely every day isn't helping his mood.

[clenz]

Hey guys, be nice to clenz. He's just salty that the men's MVC and Summit earned the same number of units in this year's March Madness, and that the Summit women went to the Sweet 16 and the Valley didn't. The fact that Summit football is becoming more likely every day isn't helping his mood.
Right. Got it. I'll keep waiting for the Summit to make that magical jump from 22nd in conference rankings to top 10/11 with the Valley.

Mind you not a single Summit team came close to SDSU - who lost by double digits to Missouri State.

[taper]

Right. Got it. I'll keep waiting for the Summit to make that magical jump from 22nd in conference rankings to top 10/11 with the Valley.

Mind you not a single Summit team came close to SDSU - who lost by double digits to Missouri State.
Yep, the MVC is currently a better BB conference than the Summit. No question there. The fact still remains that doesn't matter and we're both 1 bid leagues.

[clenz]

Yep, the MVC is currently a better BB conference than the Summit. No question there. The fact still remains that doesn't matter and we're both 1 bid leagues.
If you ignore all the times the Valley has gotten multiple (as recently as 2021), you are absolutely right. I can't call you a liar for that one.

[taper]

If you ignore all the times the Valley has gotten multiple (as recently as 2021), you are absolutely right. I can't call you a liar for that one.
How many of those multiple bid teams have left the MVC? Simple fact is the MVC is on the decline and the Summit is on the rise. At this point we're effectively the same, 1 bid leagues. Neither of us actually matter to the upper tier leagues.

[NDB]

They may be a two bid league until Loyola or Murray State leave. Could care less.

Do care that they don't care that they're watering down a separate, football only conference.

But again, it just shows that basketball is bigger to those schools and NDSU needs to get the hell out.

[clenz]

How many of those multiple bid teams have left the MVC? Simple fact is the MVC is on the decline and the Summit is on the rise. At this point we're effectively the same, 1 bid leagues. Neither of us actually matter to the upper tier leagues.
I've been hearing this for over a decade a this point and yet the MVC is still sitting at 10/11 in the conference rankings and the Summit still sits between 22-25 every single season. When is that rise actually going to happen?

Interesting the MVC is on the decline yet added two top 50 programs starting next year and looking at this years numbers would have 6 top 100 rated programs with a 7th in the top 125.

Meanwhile the Summit has SDSU in the 60-80 range, then NDSU in the 150-170 range, then everyone else in the 220+ range.

But yes, we are 100% the same thing.

[NDB]

Right. Got it. I'll keep waiting for the Summit to make that magical jump from 22nd in conference rankings to top 10/11 with the Valley.

Mind you not a single Summit team came close to SDSU - who lost by double digits to Missouri State.

15, not 10, not 11. But who cares.

Congrats on your wins in the NIT.

[clenz]

15, not 10, not 11. But who cares.

Congrats on your wins in the NIT.
Conference Net Ratings

https://i.imgur.com/yxejKE4.jpg

[NDB]

Regardless.

UNI basketball peaked with less than a minute left in regulation during it's second round game in the 2016 tournament.

[clenz]

Regardless.

UNI basketball peaked with less than a minute left in regulation during it's second round game in the 2016 tournament.
I mean, I guess the S16 didn't happen. Or the ESPY. Or beating multiple #1 ranked teams, or two top 5 ranked teams in 4 days, or any of that.

Yep that one game was it. Neverminded we've won 2 of the last 3 conference titles in the Valley.

I assume many Summit teams has a ton of teams with a bunch of NCAA tournament success right? Right? A bunch of wins? Almost every year getting a win. Right?

No?

That's a shame.

Since 2015 the MVC has averaged more wins per bid than all but 2 conferences

https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476908939427841?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476915935625216?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476922176704516?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg


But yeah...we are the same thing as conferences go.


The sky is falling everyone is leaving

Creighton leaves - replaced by Loyola who adds a final 4 and a s16 to the Valley history books
WSU leaves and...well..Valpo sucks
Loyola leaves - "you'll never replace them" while we are bringing Murray State and Belmont

Meanwhile the Summit added a Division 3 move up, UND, and UN-O.

[taper]

I mean, I guess the S16 didn't happen. Or the ESPY. Or beating multiple #1 ranked teams, or two top 5 ranked teams in 4 days, or any of that.

Yep that one game was it. Neverminded we've won 2 of the last 3 conference titles in the Valley.

I assume many Summit teams has a ton of teams with a bunch of NCAA tournament success right? Right? A bunch of wins? Almost every year getting a win. Right?

No?

That's a shame.

Since 2015 the MVC has averaged more wins per bid than all but 2 conferences

https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476908939427841?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476915935625216?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476922176704516?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg


But yeah...we are the same thing as conferences go.


The sky is falling everyone is leaving

Creighton leaves - replaced by Loyola who adds a final 4 and a s16 to the Valley history books
WSU leaves and...well..Valpo sucks
Loyola leaves - "you'll never replace them" while we are bringing Murray State and Belmont

Meanwhile the Summit added a Division 3 move up, UND, and UN-O.

And yet, that's all in the past. That's the point. The MVC is on the decline. I still think you're scared of Summit football because it means UNI's best option is to join us. There's enough happening throughout the FCS right now that something is going to break, and the Summit starting football isn't out of the question.

[clenz]

And yet, that's all in the past. That's the point. The MVC is on the decline. I still think you're scared of Summit football because it means UNI's best option is to join us. There's enough happening throughout the FCS right now that something is going to break, and the Summit starting football isn't out of the question.
So the Valley is going to have 6 programs that were top 100 this last season but it's on a decline?

What about the Summit tells you it's on the rise? One magical run on the back of a single player for ORU last year? The best team in the history of the Summit getting bounced in the first round?

The nets of the Summit programs this past season 65 155 157 199 206 225 294 310 346 347

That's on the rise?

Look, I'm not trying to **** on the Summit. That wasn't my point of any of this. You keep trying to bring up **** with ZERO backing to it.

[taper]

So the Valley is going to have 6 programs that were top 100 this last season but it's on a decline?

What about the Summit tells you it's on the rise? One magical run on the back of a single player for ORU last year? The best team in the history of the Summit getting bounced in the first round?

The nets of the Summit programs this past season 65 155 157 199 206 225 294 310 346 347

That's on the rise?

Look, I'm not trying to **** on the Summit. That wasn't my point of any of this. You keep trying to bring up **** with ZERO backing to it.
The Summit and MVC are effectively equal in BB, that's my point. It doesn't matter you're better than us, we're both irrelevant to the majors. Simple fact is we both had 1 bid in the men's tourney and lost first round. Summit women went to the Sweet 16 and the MVC didn't. Simple fact. Don't act superior and think Summit football won't happen because we need the MVC teams.

[clenz]

Simple fact. Don't act superior and think Summit football won't happen because we need the MVC teams.
Don't think it won't happen just because we need everyone we need you and don't have members without you


Interesting.

Got it.

Go for it.

At this point I hope it blows up.

[POD Knows]

The Summit and MVC are effectively equal in BB, that's my point. It doesn't matter you're better than us, we're both irrelevant to the majors. Simple fact is we both had 1 bid in the men's tourney and lost first round. Summit women went to the Sweet 16 and the MVC didn't. Simple fact. Don't act superior and think Summit football won't happen because we need the MVC teams.
And a Summit WBB team won the WNIT. The MVC has delusions of grandeur when it comes to BB. ORU made the sweet 16 in in the previous tourney as well.

[NDB]

I mean, I guess the S16 didn't happen. Or the ESPY. Or beating multiple #1 ranked teams, or two top 5 ranked teams in 4 days, or any of that.

Yep that one game was it. Neverminded we've won 2 of the last 3 conference titles in the Valley.

I assume many Summit teams has a ton of teams with a bunch of NCAA tournament success right? Right? A bunch of wins? Almost every year getting a win. Right?

No?

That's a shame.

Since 2015 the MVC has averaged more wins per bid than all but 2 conferences

https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476908939427841?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476915935625216?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg
https://twitter.com/mjhackman/status/1503476922176704516?s=20&t=FrBnL-zlO1c1Q_175KPPVg


But yeah...we are the same thing as conferences go.


The sky is falling everyone is leaving

Creighton leaves - replaced by Loyola who adds a final 4 and a s16 to the Valley history books
WSU leaves and...well..Valpo sucks
Loyola leaves - "you'll never replace them" while we are bringing Murray State and Belmont

Meanwhile the Summit added a Division 3 move up, UND, and UN-O.

Wins per bid.

The stat that all conferences strive for.

Congrats.

[NDB]

So the Valley is going to have 6 programs that were top 100 this last season but it's on a decline?

What about the Summit tells you it's on the rise? One magical run on the back of a single player for ORU last year? The best team in the history of the Summit getting bounced in the first round?

The nets of the Summit programs this past season 65 155 157 199 206 225 294 310 346 347

That's on the rise?

Look, I'm not trying to **** on the Summit. That wasn't my point of any of this. You keep trying to bring up **** with ZERO backing to it.

WTF is top 100?

Is that something people keep track of?

Do you put up banners in McCleod for your subjective ranking?

[BisonFan02]

It's time for Summit football. The MVC schools are largely a joke in the league anyway. Let's get it done....

[JacksFan40]

It's time for Summit football. The MVC schools are largely a joke in the league anyway. Let's get it done....
Won’t work with only five teams. I doubt WIU will follow the Dakotas into Summit football either and I don’t see St. Thomas pushing for scholarship football, not that they intend to stay in the Summit in the long run anyways. That leaves four schools and maybe Northern Colorado if they make the switch, still not enough for an autobid.

The time is now for a move to the FBS, I don’t care if it’s through the MWC or C-USA, or hell even as an Independent, just get it done.

[NDSU1980]

It's time for Summit football. The MVC schools are largely a joke in the league anyway. Let's get it done....

I keep asking this question and never get an answer. What's the fascination with Summit League football? I don't see any advantage over MVFC. If you want to move, let's go FBS.

[NDSU1980]

Won’t work with only five teams. I doubt WIU will follow the Dakotas into Summit football either and I don’t see St. Thomas pushing for scholarship football, not that they intend to stay in the Summit in the long run anyways. That leaves four schools and maybe Northern Colorado if they make the switch, still not enough for an autobid.

The time is now for a move to the FBS, I don’t care if it’s through the MWC or C-USA, or hell even as an Independent, just get it done.

I agree on the FBS, but I think SDSU leadership is even more stuborn about going FBS than NDSU is.

[JacksFan40]

I agree on the FBS, but I think SDSU leadership is even more stuborn about going FBS than NDSU is.
I believe that, our leadership is very content with being good enough. Nothing makes them happier than three losses per season and a semifinal exit in football.

[taper]

I keep asking this question and never get an answer. What's the fascination with Summit League football? I don't see any advantage over MVFC. If you want to move, let's go FBS.
The answer is 12 teams is too many. We're on the verge of becoming the Big Sky where the conf champ is a good but not great team with lucky scheduling. Also has the benefit of stabilizing the Summit. Remember a few years ago when we needed a NCAA waiver to keep existing when we fell below the sports sponsored requirement? We're no longer on the ragged edge but there's several teams that are at risk for leaving which puts us right back there. I'd prefer to wait until we have 7+ FB schools lined up, but I would go with 6 if it meant not having to invite Augustana just to keep the conference alive.

[Bisonator]

Won’t work with only five teams. I doubt WIU will follow the Dakotas into Summit football either and I don’t see St. Thomas pushing for scholarship football, not that they intend to stay in the Summit in the long run anyways. That leaves four schools and maybe Northern Colorado if they make the switch, still not enough for an autobid.

The time is now for a move to the FBS, I don’t care if it’s through the MWC or C-USA, or hell even as an Independent, just get it done.


I keep asking this question and never get an answer. What's the fascination with Summit League football? I don't see any advantage over MVFC. If you want to move, let's go FBS.
Couldn't agree more, both NDSU & SDSU should be looking to move to FBS together. The FCS was fun but it's clearly not where we should be it's time to move on before goes D2ish even more.

[Gil Dobie]

Murray State will be a nice addition to the MVFC. I remember UNI fans laughing at NDSU fans saying, when Bison fans said they would be good football competition in the MVFC. Not going to be the fool that laughs at Murray St.

There is nothing in FBS that is as exciting as going to the FCS championship game, for a team at the level of NDSU. Until FBS has a full playoff, with auto-bids from every conference, I'll enjoy the FCS playoffs over any FBS December Bowl game.

[Bisonator]

Murray State will be a nice addition to the MVFC. I remember UNI fans laughing at NDSU fans saying, when Bison fans said they would be good football competition in the MVFC. Not going to be the fool that laughs at Murray St.

There is nothing in FBS that is as exciting as going to the FCS championship game, for a team at the level of NDSU. Until FBS has a full playoff, with auto-bids from every conference, I'll enjoy the FCS playoffs over any FBS December Bowl game.
Murray State can't compete in the OVC and haven't for 20 years FFS. They'll be bottom 3 in the MVFC for the foreseeable future.


Really? Even after winning the title 8 out of 10 seasons? Sorry but FBS games have become harder to get then an FCS title for us. We stay here we'll slip into obscurity eventually just like Montana did.

[JacksFan40]

Murray State will be a nice addition to the MVFC. I remember UNI fans laughing at NDSU fans saying, when Bison fans said they would be good football competition in the MVFC. Not going to be the fool that laughs at Murray St.

There is nothing in FBS that is as exciting as going to the FCS championship game, for a team at the level of NDSU. Until FBS has a full playoff, with auto-bids from every conference, I'll enjoy the FCS playoffs over any FBS December Bowl game.
NDSU has hit the ceiling for what an FCS program can be, and it still pales in comparison to Boise State, UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, San Diego State, or even Appalachian State and the success those programs have had in the G5.

Just remember that when people think of 2007 App State they only think about the Michigan win, almost nobody talks about how they went on to three peat as FCS champions that year. Hell most casual fans still think NDSU is D2.

[Gil Dobie]

Murray State can't compete in the OVC and haven't for 20 years FFS. They'll be bottom 3 in the MVFC for the foreseeable future.


Really? Even after winning the title 8 out of 10 seasons? Sorry but FBS games have become harder to get then an FCS title for us. We stay here we'll slip into obscurity eventually just like Montana did.

Murray St will be up and down like other schools in the conference.

NDSU will move to FBS when the opportunity arises. Might be some kind of a multi team move from different conferences, but I don't know and don't care at this moment. NDSU was pushing a I-AA move for a long time before it happened. I would rather the Bison continue to win at this level, than move to FBS, just to move to FBS.

[Hammerhead]

The NCAA won't let teams move up to the FBS as an independent. I'm not sure C-USA would even invite NDSU for football only because they know NDSU would be one of the favorites to win the conference.


Won’t work with only five teams. I doubt WIU will follow the Dakotas into Summit football either and I don’t see St. Thomas pushing for scholarship football, not that they intend to stay in the Summit in the long run anyways. That leaves four schools and maybe Northern Colorado if they make the switch, still not enough for an autobid.

The time is now for a move to the FBS, I don’t care if it’s through the MWC or C-USA, or hell even as an Independent, just get it done.

[Gil Dobie]

NDSU has hit the ceiling for what an FCS program can be, and it still pales in comparison to Boise State, UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, San Diego State, or even Appalachian State and the success those programs have had in the G5.

Just remember that when people think of 2007 App State they only think about the Michigan win, almost nobody talks about how they went on to three peat as FCS champions that year. Hell most casual fans still think NDSU is D2.

I have no idea what success App St has had in FBS, haven't really heard of them since, except maybe someone mentioned they were ranked at one time. The other schools were gone before NDSU got to FBS. When those schools start winning championship games, let me know.

[jacksfan29!]

Actually, NET you had 4 top 100 with one (UNI) sitting at 98, Loyola at 28 will be leaving your league for greener pastures.

I do agree, Murray and Belmont were good adds for the MVC. They will immediately dominate the league, and when the chance comes, Belmont will move on, Murray will stick around.

Did SDSU lose to MSU. Yep, by 12, team was struggling at that time. Did SDSU pummel Bradley? Yep, I believe UNI split with the Braves. Is the Summit as strong as the MVC in BB? Not now, this was a bad, bad year and it had a negative effect on SDSU. Go back several years, 12 - 15 league based on SDSU, NDSU, USD all being good. The MVC is not overly scary, sorry, it just isn't. Will it be an annual two bid league again, maybe, but I doubt UNI is one of the 2 bids. All your programs seem to be going the wrong direction.

Should Murray have been added to the MVFC? You took UND and USD, both better programs, but you did. My hope is SDSU joined NDSU in voting no. My guess is 3 schools voted against Murray joining. Going to 12 (just like 11) was a bad move. I would have preferred 10. Murray competitively would have been better off staying in the OVC for FB.

Feel free to rant, telling everyone the MVC is the same league it was when Creighton and Wichita were there. Seems to make you feel better about your school.


So the Valley is going to have 6 programs that were top 100 this last season but it's on a decline?

What about the Summit tells you it's on the rise? One magical run on the back of a single player for ORU last year? The best team in the history of the Summit getting bounced in the first round?

The nets of the Summit programs this past season 65 155 157 199 206 225 294 310 346 347

That's on the rise?

Look, I'm not trying to **** on the Summit. That wasn't my point of any of this. You keep trying to bring up **** with ZERO backing to it.

[BEAR]

The NCAA won't let teams move up to the FBS as an independent. I'm not sure C-USA would even invite NDSU for football only because they know NDSU would be one of the favorites to win the conference.

I think the NCAA is becoming defunct and soon won't get any choices on decisions being made. They've already sold their souls to corporate sponsorships. Now they've provided a slip-n-slide for players to transfer easily AND get paid for their NIL.
So basically college football is finally turning into a semi-pro league with highest bidder controlling the governing body. If not, goodbye NCAA. The conferences can make a ton of money without the NCAA. Their power structure is pretty much weakened to the point of barely existing IMO.

If conference USA calls on ASUN and MVFC schools to move on up....they're gone. They'll follow the money.

[JacksFan40]

I have no idea what success App St has had in FBS, haven't really heard of them since, except maybe someone mentioned they were ranked at one time. The other schools were gone before NDSU got to FBS. When those schools start winning championship games, let me know.
Are you saying you’d take an FCS title over Cincinnati’s playoff appearance? Or the NY6 Bowls won by Boise and UCF?

App State has grown far more as a program since going to the FBS, and now they might be in the best G5 conference once the AAC teams leave for the Big 12.

[UNHWildcat18]

Not gonna lie I'm kinda enjoying this thread, feeling my pain xdrunkyx

[Cocky]

The NCAA won't let teams move up to the FBS as an independent. I'm not sure C-USA would even invite NDSU for football only because they know NDSU would be one of the favorites to win the conference.

Dont believe competition is the problem, just distance. And that it probably not football but the travel for the other sports.

No sure but believe you have to be all sports in FBS not just football only.

[Gil Dobie]

Are you saying you’d take an FCS title over Cincinnati’s playoff appearance? Or the NY6 Bowls won by Boise and UCF?

App State has grown far more as a program since going to the FBS, and now they might be in the best G5 conference once the AAC teams leave for the Big 12.

You didn't read my response to Bisonator.

[FUBeAR]

NDSU has hit the ceiling for what an FCS program can be, and it still pales in comparison to Boise State, UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, San Diego State, or even Appalachian State and the success those programs have had in the G5.

Just remember that when people think of 2007 App State they only think about the Michigan win, almost nobody talks about how they went on to three peat as FCS champions that year. Hell most casual fans still think NDSU is D2.
Most “casual fans” still think App State is D2 also.

[NDSU1980]

Dont believe competition is the problem, just distance. And that it probably not football but the travel for the other sports.

No sure but believe you have to be all sports in FBS not just football only.FBS is a football only designation. All other sports have to D1, which I think is what you were trying to say.

[mvfcfan]

MVFC schools that issued the Racers a "Welcome" on Twitter (8): ILSU, INSU, MOSU, UND, UNI, USD, WIU, and YSU.

No mention: NDSU, SDSU, and SIU.

*SIU did issue a "Welcome to the Valley" on Jan 7 when Murray was announced to the MVC. Can't imagine they'd vote no. MVC also requires a 75% yes vote, so if the MVFC rules are the same, the Racers would have needed 9 yes votes. The big question I suppose, is if SDSU voted yes.

For the whining NDSU administration and fans:
It's called the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Key words "MISSOURI VALLEY". The MVFC has the same exact logo as the MVC, with the only difference being that a football is resting on top of the word "VALLEY". The MVC and MVFC both run out of the same office on 1818 Chouteau Ave in St Louis, MO.

Just curious. What do you NDSU folks think would have happened if you were successful at blocking Murray State? The MVC has 6 for an auto bid. WIU and YSU are founding members and neither is interested in Summit League football. It's something to consider before you openly start burning bridges. Perhaps the Big Sky would have gave you a life raft, but we all know that FBS invite hasn't come yet.

[BisonFan02]

MVFC schools that issued the Racers a "Welcome" on Twitter (8): ILSU, INSU, MOSU, UND, UNI, USD, WIU, and YSU.

No mention: NDSU, SDSU, and SIU.

*SIU did issue a "Welcome to the Valley" on Jan 7 when Murray was announced to the MVC. Can't imagine they'd vote no. MVC also requires a 75% yes vote, so if the MVFC rules are the same, the Racers would have needed 9 yes votes. The big question I suppose, is if SDSU voted yes.

For the whining NDSU administration and fans:
It's called the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Key words "MISSOURI VALLEY". The MVFC has the same exact logo as the MVC, with the only difference being that a football is resting on top of the word "VALLEY". The MVC and MVFC both run out of the same office on 1818 Chouteau Ave in St Louis, MO.

Just curious. What do you NDSU folks think would have happened if you were successful at blocking Murray State? The MVC has 6 for an auto bid. WIU and YSU are founding members and neither is interested in Summit League football. It's something to consider before you openly start burning bridges. Perhaps the Big Sky would have gave you a life raft, but we all know that FBS invite hasn't come yet.

You need us more than we need you. "WIU and YSU" as "founding members"....gimme a break. LOL

Take out NDSU/SDSU and the Valley is looking up at the Big Sky, CAA, et al. On the plus side, UNI could start painting conference championships back on their garage door again.

[Bisonoline]

MVFC schools that issued the Racers a "Welcome" on Twitter (8): ILSU, INSU, MOSU, UND, UNI, USD, WIU, and YSU.

No mention: NDSU, SDSU, and SIU.

*SIU did issue a "Welcome to the Valley" on Jan 7 when Murray was announced to the MVC. Can't imagine they'd vote no. MVC also requires a 75% yes vote, so if the MVFC rules are the same, the Racers would have needed 9 yes votes. The big question I suppose, is if SDSU voted yes.

For the whining NDSU administration and fans:
It's called the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Key words "MISSOURI VALLEY". The MVFC has the same exact logo as the MVC, with the only difference being that a football is resting on top of the word "VALLEY". The MVC and MVFC both run out of the same office on 1818 Chouteau Ave in St Louis, MO.

Just curious. What do you NDSU folks think would have happened if you were successful at blocking Murray State? The MVC has 6 for an auto bid. WIU and YSU are founding members and neither is interested in Summit League football. It's something to consider before you openly start burning bridges. Perhaps the Big Sky would have gave you a life raft, but we all know that FBS invite hasn't come yet.

https://i.imgur.com/dNXiAMA.gif

[Cocky]

FBS is a football only designation. All other sports have to D1, which I think is what you were trying to say.

No I was speaking of your conference. Dont believe you can have a football only FBS conference.

[Gil Dobie]

MVFC schools that issued the Racers a "Welcome" on Twitter (8): ILSU, INSU, MOSU, UND, UNI, USD, WIU, and YSU.

No mention: NDSU, SDSU, and SIU.

*SIU did issue a "Welcome to the Valley" on Jan 7 when Murray was announced to the MVC. Can't imagine they'd vote no. MVC also requires a 75% yes vote, so if the MVFC rules are the same, the Racers would have needed 9 yes votes. The big question I suppose, is if SDSU voted yes.

For the whining NDSU administration and fans:
It's called the Missouri Valley Football Conference. Key words "MISSOURI VALLEY". The MVFC has the same exact logo as the MVC, with the only difference being that a football is resting on top of the word "VALLEY". The MVC and MVFC both run out of the same office on 1818 Chouteau Ave in St Louis, MO.

Just curious. What do you NDSU folks think would have happened if you were successful at blocking Murray State? The MVC has 6 for an auto bid. WIU and YSU are founding members and neither is interested in Summit League football. It's something to consider before you openly start burning bridges. Perhaps the Big Sky would have gave you a life raft, but we all know that FBS invite hasn't come yet.

Disappointed of the NDSU stance, and the egos of some fans. Not too many years ago we were looking for a conference. Rejected by some of the Big Sky non-Montana schools, and finally the Missouri Valley, former Gateway comes along.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Disappointed of the NDSU stance, and the egos of some fans. Not too many years ago we were looking for a conference. Rejected by some of the Big Sky non-Montana schools, and finally the Missouri Valley, former Gateway comes along.

.....AH DUH MIGHTY...FO'GETTIN' DEY'RE ROOTS......AN' DUH YOTE FAN.....WHOM WISHES.....NUFFFIN'....BUT...A$$-KICKERS....ON MURRAY......GOTTAH START SOMEWHERE......LIKE YA'S DID.......AWK!

....SOMEHOW....VALPO/DRAKE ON SKED.....MO' MANLY........THEN FLATTENIN' RACER'S TIRES......IN FARGO.........BRAWK!

[Professor Chaos]

IMO the majority of the whining from Bison fans is from those who want to use this as further evidence that NDSU needs to move FBS. Pretty much anything happening in the FCS landscape these days is spun that way by some on Bisonville. Who knows... maybe that's the NDSU admin's reasoning behind this as well. NDSU President Bresciani, who voiced his no vote publicly when he didn't have to, is retiring this summer so maybe this is a political ploy by NDSU for plotting their future moves as well.

Personally, I don't have an issue with Murray St joining the conference. Yeah, they're a bad program but quite honestly the MVFC really doesn't need another program that'll be a perennial playoff contender. Adding a cupcake is fine since it'll pad some extra wins on the schedules of MVFC teams which will, in turn, get more MVFC teams into the playoffs. Also, it gives the conference an even number of teams again so they don't have to give at least one team a bye week every week leaving some teams with awkward bye weeks towards the end of the season. Now they can just have the conference schedule on the last 8 weeks of the regular season and leave teams more flexibility early in the season to schedule non-conference games.

[mvfcfan]

You need us more than we need you.

Lmao keep telling your inflated ego that if it makes you sleep better at night. The MVC schools have an auto bid no matter what the Dakota's do down the road.

[clenz]

Lmao keep telling your inflated ego that if it makes you sleep better at night. The MVC schools have an auto bid no matter what the Dakota's do down the road.
Forget everything about spending more on basketball or what league is better - this is the ultimate truth.

MVC now has enough football schools to be it's own conference without the Summit OR YSU (who would stay with the Valley schools should a split happen). The Summit does not have enough for an autobid, or even a conference within the NCAA period, or to start a conference.

Forget every other disagreement to be had, the idea that the Valley schools need the Summit schools in football more than the other way around is simply not true on that basis alone.

[AmsterBison]

Murray State will be a nice addition to the MVFC. I remember UNI fans laughing at NDSU fans saying, when Bison fans said they would be good football competition in the MVFC. Not going to be the fool that laughs at Murray St.


Ha! What I remember is that the MVFC only wanted SDSU because NDSU was going to make the conference too hard, and NDSU wanted in because the Gateway was a very good conference... although at the point NDSU would have settled for any conference, I'm guessing.

I've got no problem with adding Murray State myself, but I have no problem with NDSU voting no either

[WestCoastAggie]

The no vote had to be more of a symbolic gesture. It could also be a sign that NDSU may (finally) begin to return phone calls to the FBS conferences reaching out. However, if Boise State ever leaves the MWC, I strongly suspect Montana and Montana State to be stronger candidates than the Bison.

[Professor Chaos]

The no vote had to be more of a symbolic gesture. It could also be a sign that NDSU may (finally) begin to return phone calls to the FBS conferences reaching out. However, if Boise State ever leaves the MWC, I strongly suspect Montana and Montana State to be stronger candidates than the Bison.
What FBS conferences are calling NDSU? You could substitute MWC in your above statement with any FBS conferences and a number of teams, depending on the conference, for Montana/Montana St. NDSU isn't FCS because they're actively turning down overtures from FBS conferences, they're FCS because they're on an island and aren't attractive enough to justify any FBS conference to add that island to their footprint (yet).

[BisonFan02]

Forget everything about spending more on basketball or what league is better - this is the ultimate truth.

MVC now has enough football schools to be it's own conference without the Summit OR YSU (who would stay with the Valley schools should a split happen). The Summit does not have enough for an autobid, or even a conference within the NCAA period, or to start a conference.

Forget every other disagreement to be had, the idea that the Valley schools need the Summit schools in football more than the other way around is simply not true on that basis alone.

Bow down to the illustrious Gateway errr Missouri Valley conference....where SIU won a natty in 83 before it really existed....the Hilltoppers managed to win one during their brief stint....Youngstown did their damage as an indy before coming over and is now, allegedly, a redheaded step child in the league.

Beyond that.....how relevant is the league? Outside of the Bison....it hasn't won jack ****.

EDIT: Assuming we need to count the 97 natty for YSU as a Gateway win in their first year in the league? Yippie

[clenz]

Cool. Talk down all you want about FCS titles if it makes you feel better and like a big man.

Good luck starting a football league with less than the required number of full time members, and one of the members with no interest in leaving the existing conference.

Maybe the MVFC would be complete ****. It certainly wouldn’t be as strong as it exists now. Nor would the Summit as it would be NDSU SDSU and then WIU, the UxDs and UNC? Great, historic programs. Real strong 6 team league. Hope it works out for you.

The fact remains that the statement of “you need us more than we need you” is utter bull****.

Have fun chasing the G5 invite that isn’t coming while spending 10 million a year on a FCS a program. Eventually that 36th FCS title will get you that invite.

If you think Murray is bad, wait until you look up how bad UNC is. Our remember that SDSU had 1 post season appearance in a venture of football before being invited to the MVFC. I’m sure the decades of dominance from USD isn’t matched by anyone outside of NDSU in the history of college football



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yote 53]

Forget everything about spending more on basketball or what league is better - this is the ultimate truth.

MVC now has enough football schools to be it's own conference without the Summit OR YSU (who would stay with the Valley schools should a split happen). The Summit does not have enough for an autobid, or even a conference within the NCAA period, or to start a conference.

Forget every other disagreement to be had, the idea that the Valley schools need the Summit schools in football more than the other way around is simply not true on that basis alone.

Ever stop to think that this is the majority beef that the Dakota schools have with the Murray State add? It's not just that Murray State is a subpar program it's that now the MVC schools wield incredible power in the conference and can basically F the Summit schools if they feel like it or if we don't agree to go along with something. Great if you are on the side the wields the power. Sucks to be on the side that doesn't have it. Especially when they are the schools that value football, 3 of them were the conferences playoff teams last year and finish in the top half of the conference, and put considerable resources into football (FCOA, stadiums and facilities). In a football only conference and we can't even control our football destiny. NDSU is all about football so that's why it is chafing those fans the most.

Your response is basically "F you, we don't need you anymore and we don't care what you want." Expect pushback with that kind of attitude.

[AmsterBison]

Cool. Talk down all you want about FCS titles if it makes you feel better and like a big man.


While I don't agree with the logic, I think he was saying that the MVFC didn't really exist, not that the FCS didn't. Unless he believes that a rose by any another name is not a rose.

[Yote 53]

The no vote had to be more of a symbolic gesture. It could also be a sign that NDSU may (finally) begin to return phone calls to the FBS conferences reaching out. However, if Boise State ever leaves the MWC, I strongly suspect Montana and Montana State to be stronger candidates than the Bison.

Which FBS conferences would those be? The MAC is too far east and wants no part of adding NDSU. What benefit is it for the MAC to add NDSU? The MWC is too far west for Fargo. Plus, the MWC has many other options before they get to NDSU on the list. CUSA is instable and spread out all over the country. For football it could work but it would destroy the other sports at NDSU and end up being an expensive move that actually hurts their football funding.

Is NDSU a good enough program to be FBS? Absolutely. But they need to either find a willing conference partner or lead the formation of a new FBS football conference. As far fetched as that sounds it is probably more likely to happen than an invite to an existing conference.

[clenz]

Ever stop to think that this is the majority beef that the Dakota schools have with the Murray State add? It's not just that Murray State is a subpar program it's that now the MVC schools wield incredible power in the conference and can basically F the Summit schools if they feel like it or if we don't agree to go along with something. Great if you are on the side the wields the power. Sucks to be on the side that doesn't have it. Especially when they are the schools that value football, 3 of them were the conferences playoff teams last year and finish in the top half of the conference, and put considerable resources into football (FCOA, stadiums and facilities). In a football only conference and we can't even control our football destiny. NDSU is all about football so that's why it is chafing those fans the most.

Your response is basically "F you, we don't need you anymore and we don't care what you want." Expect pushback with that kind of attitude.
Honestly, this is an entire fair response to me.

Look, the reality is I understand there are valid reasons to not be for Murray in the Valley. I think the reasons given here, and complained about by the Fargo media in the papers and even the disrespectful and argumentative tone, they took with Patty during the press conference about it, are entirely dishonest and are talking points being fed to them by the back channels at NDSU to use to get fans pissed off.

The idea that "Murray isn't good enough" is dumb. Again, SDSU had one post season appearance in a century of D2/small college football, yet they are who NDSU chose to move up to D1 with. If it's about doing so with high quality programs, was SDSU in the early 00s really the horse to hitch too? They joined the Great West, a conference that was objectively bad. They then joined the Valley who is apparently not good enough now, but was to join with in 08. They joined a conference that had WIU, who is worse than Murray (Best case even). They joined a conference with Indiana State, who as I pointed out was the worst scholarship program in the country between about 95 and 09. They voted to add USD, and don't take this as me attacking, but it's not like USD is some great super power program at the time of their addition. They voted to add UND who isn't known to be a great program since they left D2. Now all of a sudden how good a program is actually matters? I don't buy it. Also if a program is going to be added would you want a top 15 program added to a conference that is already 6 deep in playoff bids, and 8 deep in rankings, or one that is going to not be a bitch and a half come conference season on the schedule?

The idea that the schedule being unbalanced, which has been made, went out the window with USD being added in 2012. The Valley hasn't played a true round robin since then, and schedule balance has been an issue ever since. Then UND was added and again the idea of schedule balance wasn't brought up as an issue by NDSU, or anyone else, with not having to play everyone or how it would be scheduled. Once you are past a true round robin the number of members becomes kind of irrelevant because the schedule will have to be unbalanced from the very start.

There has been complaints about how far away Murray is from the Dakota schools. The response to the eastern schools when USD and UND were added, and multiple flights to the Dakota's were then a necessity yearly, was "****ing deal with it", "big deal", "we have to fly too", "stop being cheap and just deal with it", "once you're on a plane it doesn't matter anyway", "the flights are short", but now that a member was added on the southern and eastern edge the idea of having to go to Murray, KY is a problem because travel logistics? During the press conference someone mentioned the Valley now spans 8 states and is that footprint sustainable. YSU and the Dakota 4 at the outliers. Murray is squarely in the geographic footprint of the conference. I saw some turn that into "Murray isn't easy to get too". Mildly fair, if you also ignore you can't fly into Brookings or Vermillion. You fly into Sioux Falls, stay in Sioux Falls, then bus an hour plus to the stadiums on game day. So to get to Murray you fly into Paducah and bus in the day of game? That's the same distance as SF to Brookings, and closer than SF to Vermillion.

You hit the crux of the issue, but no one else is willing to do it: "It feels like the Valley is trying to push their power on the Summit". That is potentially the most valid argument against Murray, but I have some questions about that too

The Valley had a voting majority, because YSU is going to vote with the Valley schools, the entire time the Summit schools have been in the conference. Can you name me one time the Valley schools forced any rule changes, any regulations, and stopped the Summit schools from adding members they wanted/needed added? Has there been anything where the Valley schools have gone out of their way to negatively impact the Summit schools? They certainly could have if they wanted too, and that was the agendas. Before UND came in the Valley had 6 votes (again, YSU will vote with the Valley majority) it was 6/4 (and I'm not entirely sure WIU is beholding to "Summit voting lines"). UND could easily have been blocked needing no help from any Summit school. None of the Valley schools were happy, but understand the larger picture of everything, so they all just voted yes to avoid any public pushback on it. Is that naive to do? Maybe, but you'll see every single conference has done so even if it was known that it wasn't actually a full support yes vote. The Valley could have blocked USD because that that point it was 6/3 (Valley/YSU against WIU, xDSUs), yet the vote was unanimous even though USD truly did cause scheduling imbalances, extra travel, etc. It has been made clear, multiple times, from Patty that she has a vested interesting in making sure the Dakota rivalry games are protected, as those schools have made it clear they are the most important thing. I guess I think the outrage of Murray wanting to share a football conference with all of the other schools they are conference mates with in all of the other sports is silly.

Let's pretend the 12th member was Northern Colorado and gave the Summit 6 to the Valley's 5. Do you, in all honesty, believe NDSU's admin, mouthpieces, fans, etc. would be as pissed off as they are about Murray? The answer is no because it would give them the feeling of "being in power and control" even though there is no extra power of any reality that would come with it.

Even with Murray the Valley doesn't have the 2/3 majority to force anything through. Any vote will now need 8 yes votes, and the Valley doesn't have that.

What rules, changes, requirements, etc. do you fear the Valley schools are going to attempt do ram through? What destiny do the Valley schools control in the MVFC that the summit schools don't? Valley schools aren't just doing nothing as you claim. SIU build a brand new stadium less than a decade ago, Illinois State has done/is doing renovations and practice facilities. Missouri State has the best facilities top to bottom in the conference and is making improvements to them. UNI has a dome reno project that is in the works that is going to rebuild the entire UNIDome, as well as putting the finishing touches on a brand new team room/suites as we speak. ISUb and WIU are the only schools that have done nothing/have nothing in the works, and that isn't entirely fair to ISUb either. Pre-COVID they were working on a brand new athletic facilities plan which included a brand new stadium.

NDSU is all about football, and they voluntarily joined a conference of known basketball schools directly after the schools they were joining had 4 teams in the NCAA tournament and were ni the 5th ranked basketball conference. It's not a secret what you/they were joining. Indiana State spends more on football than SDSU. Where it goes? I don't know, but they do.

The Valley schools, and YSU, can't for the Dakota's out and leave them without a home. Nor is there any want/reason too. The Valley, as it exists, is a best case scenario for all programs involved. Until now neither conference has had the ability to "be on it's own", and while the Valley schools can do it now, it isn't going to be a stable conference at just 6 full time members and YSU as an affiliate. It won't be a strong as the MVFC is now. It would be silly to go "We have the 6 required now, so the rest of you get bent". The Summit still doesn't have enough members, and anyone they add to get to 6 is going to be so far from WIU that there are doubts from those in the know that WIU would stick around, so you likely need 2 more from the start. That leaves you in the same spot as the Valley of "Sure we have enough members but it isn't exactly stable (especially with NDSU doing everything possible to leave the FCS ASAP). It isn't going to be as strong as the MVFC is. Would it be higher rated than the Valley? Sure. It's still going to be a 2, maybe 3 bid, conference - NDSU, SDSU and then one of the others if they win a ton of their 5 OOCs games and don't lose to anyone other than SDSU/NDSU. They Valley would be a 2 bid league as well with a chance at a third if the season goes well.

My response was directed to BF02, who we have a longer history than more two random posters on this forum, so it may have come across as more of a "**** you" than it otherwise may have intended to be, especially at the "You need us more than we need you" with such bravado while being as far from correct as possible.

To anyone else, I'm genuinely attempting to not have everything be a confrontation, but more of a "You're saying this but explain it in a way that isn't just talking points/conjecture"

[Yote 53]

Never before did the MVC schools have the ability to form their own all-sports conference with scholarship football. Now they do. Given the tumultuous landscape of FCS football lately it is something the Summit schools cannot ignore. Now, would the MVC schools do that? No, I don't think so. Then again, I'm not really sure. It would be very easy for them to do that and then ask YSU and WIU to come on as affiliates. In fact, a ton of advantages in cost savings and in "success" in being able to win the conference (let's be honest, NDSU c*ck blocks every one of us from winning the conference). Maybe WIU doesn't come along but you'd definitely have YSU, and that gives you seven and you might be able to pick up another affiliate somewhere along the way.

Would that happen? Like I said, probably not. But if it did it would would severely damage the Summit and is completely out of our control. Now, all that said. Let's say Murray parked football in the OVC or some other conference. They are still in the MVC for all other sports. Once that happened, as long as they continue to field scholarship football the threat is always there of the MVC being able to form their own all-sports conference. So honestly, it's kind of a moot point and probably better to just let them in the MVFC as currently constructed than to force you guys to push the nuclear option and form your own MVC football conference.

Keep in the back of your mind that this exact same thing recently played out in another sport when the Big Ten started their hockey conference when PSU started the 6th BIG program. UND lived through the destruction of the WCHA and the rest of us had a front row seat to witness it. We are sensitive to history repeating itself by putting our fate in the hands of the good graces of others.

[clenz]

The threat of the MVC starting it's own league is as close to a zero percent as you can get. If it wanted it it would have it. The Valley has sponsored football, and shuttered the league. The members all joined the Gateway from there - a couple were members of both at the same time. Football before 1986 was wild.

Schools like NDSU have football and then the other sports exist as part of the athletic department.

Valley schools, as much as NDSU fans/admin/media hate it, are schools that happen to have football as part of their athletic department. The MVC has zero intention of rolling football into a league sport and tempting football members to start using football as leverage in other parts of the conference. The reality is, at the MM/FCS level, the ROI on basketball dwarfs the ROI on football. A strong basketball conference will have more name recognition, and make more money for all members than a MM league that is meh at basketball but dumps everything into winning a FCS title "no one outside of that school cares about". St Peter's got 50 times the air play, coverage, articles, interview, etc. for one NCAA run than NDSU has gotten for all of their FCS titles - and spent a small fraction to do it.

As i said, I can understand where the basis of fear is coming from, but there's no foundation for it. As you pointed out, Murray State being a MVC member would always be seen as "the nuclear" option, and the feeling would go from "You're trying to impose your will on us" to "you're always just going to threaten to bring Murray in and force us out". It's all the same paranoia, just presented differently, and all completely unfounded.

Again, if anyone can provide specific, and proven, examples of times the Valley has simply "imposed their will over Summit schools" at any point in the last 15 years I'd love to see it because I apparently missed it happening.

I'll also reiterate something that you touched again in your reply "Never before did the MVC schools have the ability to form their own all-sports conference with scholarship football. Now they do."

The Summit schools never have had that either. Do you think Summit fans would be as pissy if it was to bring a 6th member of the Summit into the league and giving the Summit schools this magical "power"?

What would the reaction of Summit schools be if the Valley went "We don't trust you. We hate everything you are about. We are going to vote against a member of your conference that has football and force them to play elsewhere". I can only imagine what the NDSU mouthpieces would be screaming out.

[Hammerhead]

Three other MVFC teams have been in the championship game in the past 8 seasons and Illinois State came very close to beating NDSU in Frisco.


Bow down to the illustrious Gateway errr Missouri Valley conference....where SIU won a natty in 83 before it really existed....the Hilltoppers managed to win one during their brief stint....Youngstown did their damage as an indy before coming over and is now, allegedly, a redheaded step child in the league.

Beyond that.....how relevant is the league? Outside of the Bison....it hasn't won jack ****.

EDIT: Assuming we need to count the 97 natty for YSU as a Gateway win in their first year in the league? Yippie

[clenz]

The timing on this is too good as far as "Valley schools invest nothing"


https://twitter.com/Pantagraph/status/1512506080894636035?s=20&t=DFpDWZO1yJYijt_Hg51KBQ

[F'N Hawks]

Who are these people saying Valley schools invest nothing?

[smilo]

This thread is hilarious. I used to admire the NDSU dynasty as a force for the FCS, but I think it might be time for them to take a bruising to remind them about the rest of us.

The MVFC is by far the best conference in the FCS. This move will likely help a couple schools from those six teams in the middle (USD, UND?) get that extra win over a cellar dweller that they need to get over the hump to get the playoff bid. This allows the best conference to get more of the best teams into the playoffs. This is good for football at our level.

I was a little more skeptical about the CAA's additions even though they benefit me, mostly because those teams in the upper/middle echelon are failing to invest and may get overtaken by these supposed bottom-feeders in a couple years. But if it has the same effect as Murray State, I would be very happy for our region and peers!

It's not a national football brand but it's definitely a noteworthy name that people know. Pounding them sure means more than the typical buy game.

[Bisonoline]

Which FBS conferences would those be? The MAC is too far east and wants no part of adding NDSU. What benefit is it for the MAC to add NDSU? The MWC is too far west for Fargo. Plus, the MWC has many other options before they get to NDSU on the list. CUSA is instable and spread out all over the country. For football it could work but it would destroy the other sports at NDSU and end up being an expensive move that actually hurts their football funding.

Is NDSU a good enough program to be FBS? Absolutely. But they need to either find a willing conference partner or lead the formation of a new FBS football conference. As far fetched as that sounds it is probably more likely to happen than an invite to an existing conference.

NCAA rules do not allow for teams to form a new conference to make a move to FBS.

[taper]

NCAA rules do not allow for teams to form a new conference to make a move to FBS.
You can't go FBS without a conference invite, but Liberty did. You must average 15k attendance but several don't(even after creative accounting). The NCAA would probably lose the antitrust lawsuit if it came to that. Not saying I see the will from enough schools to do it right now, but if attempted it would likely be allowed.

[ElCid]

You can't go FBS without a conference invite, but Liberty did. You must average 15k attendance but several don't(even after creative accounting). The NCAA would probably lose the antitrust lawsuit if it came to that. Not saying I see the will from enough schools to do it right now, but if attempted it would likely be allowed.

I'm sure Libertine could shed some light, but from what I understand, Liberty had some big political guns to back them up if push came to shove. The NCAA wasn't about to fall on its sword yet in an antitrust suit. The attendance requirement has always been a joke. It's one of those technicalities that governing bodies have if all else fails. But it's been ignored for so long, it probably wouldn't stand up in court anymore.

[TennBison]

NCAA rules do not allow for teams to form a new conference to make a move to FBS.
Not that I am a fan of it, but could NDSU and other schools create a conference once they got in. So for instance. Could the MVFC all decide to move up and go independent for one year. They could all just play each other that year. Then go ahead and decide to form a MVFC at the FBS level the next year. Like I said, I am not a fan of doing/going FBS like that, but just wondering if it could be done?

[Professor Chaos]

Not that I am a fan of it, but could NDSU and other schools create a conference once they got in. So for instance. Could the MVFC all decide to move up and go independent for one year. They could all just play each other that year. Then go ahead and decide to form a MVFC at the FBS level the next year. Like I said, I am not a fan of doing/going FBS like that, but just wondering if it could be done?
If enough like minded schools wanted to move up as a conference I don't think the NCAA could do much, or at least wouldn't be all that motivated to spend resources, to stop them. IMO the bigger issue is getting bowl tie-ins and CFP money. The existing FBS conference would likely fight tooth and nail to ensure that a new conference doesn't get a slice of their "pie". They would be a lot more motivated than the NCAA at least.

[Hammerhead]

I think Liberty was able to argue that no conference would invite them based on religious grounds so they should get an exemption from the rule preventing new independent FBS teams.


I'm sure Libertine could shed some light, but from what I understand, Liberty had some big political guns to back them up if push came to shove. The NCAA wasn't about to fall on its sword yet in an antitrust suit. The attendance requirement has always been a joke. It's one of those technicalities that governing bodies have if all else fails. But it's been ignored for so long, it probably wouldn't stand up in court anymore.

[Libertine]

I think Liberty was able to argue that no conference would invite them based on religious grounds so they should get an exemption from the rule preventing new independent FBS teams.

Wow. No. Just...no. Not even close. Also, politics had nothing to do with it.

Liberty began a process in the late 2010's of preparing to move to FBS and, by 2016, LU was able to show that it had already met or exceeded requirements for an FBS program across the athletic department. When I say that, I'm not speaking only of scholarship numbers or stadium size, though an upgraded stadium was certainly part of it. I'm also referring to number of sports, infrastructure in place to manage gameday at an FBS level, infrastructure to perform fundraising at an FBS level, numbers of support personnel (player academic support, equipment management, ticket sales, media information, etc.,), and -- most importantly -- long-term institutional support for maintaining those standards at an FBS level. In short, Liberty was able to demonstrate that it was, in practice, already an FBS program forced to stay in FCS by an arbitrary NCAA rule. The various NCAA committees agreed and overwhelmingly approved a waiver for LU to go FBS without guidance or support from an FBS conference. People can and obviously have theorized that Liberty was ready to file an anti-trust suit but that was not something that was threatened -- at least, not loudly or publicly enough for anyone outside of a conference room to hear -- and, fortunately, it never came to that.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Liberty situation boils down to $$$. That university is swimming in cash.

The idea that the MVFC could "move up" as a conference is beyond wishful thinking. Barriers to entry are created for a reason.

[SUPharmacist]

Any Murray State fans lurking that would care to educate us all?

[JacksFan40]

Only real hope for an NDSU FBS bid would be the MWC, but as has been repeatedly pointed out, the Montana schools are the more likely options as it’s guaranteed you could get both in for all sports. NDSU is less likely to move out of the Summit, and I heavily doubt SDSU wants to leave either. Football only invites are unfortunately probably not coming.

If NDSU really wants to get into the MWC, they have to take the initiative.

[Professor Chaos]

The Liberty situation boils down to $$$. That university is swimming in cash.

The idea that the MVFC could "move up" as a conference is beyond wishful thinking. Barriers to entry are created for a reason.
I don't think the MVFC as a whole would/could move up but if enough like minded FCS teams, most likely a conglomerate of MVFC and Big Sky schools, wanted to step up together and form a new FBS conference I don't think the NCAA would have much motivation to stop them if they have all the infrastructure in place. But the NCAA doesn't control bowl tie-ins or the CFP distribution which to me is the bigger hurdle since a new conference could not be competitive without those.

[SDFS]

I don't think the MVFC as a whole would/could move up but if enough like minded FCS teams, most likely a conglomerate of MVFC and Big Sky schools, wanted to step up together and form a new FBS conference I don't think the NCAA would have much motivation to stop them if they have all the infrastructure in place. But the NCAA doesn't control bowl tie-ins or the CFP distribution which to me is the bigger hurdle since a new conference could not be competitive without those.

I think an interesting side note on this type of a approach is what the WAC was/is trying. And that is a move to FBS given the conference's previous FBS affiliation. I don't know if it is possible but I believe that the MVC was at one time a FBS conference. And is it wild conjecture at this point that a Big East type of split takes place with Basketball vs Football with the MVC/MVFC - hell yes.

But, going back to MVFC membership. You still have college football insiders saying the The Sun Belt is still talking to Missouri State. If MSU leaves for FBS what does that mean for similar public football schools (UNI, ISU-R, ISU-B, SUI).

[clenz]

I think an interesting side note on this type of a approach is what the WAC was/is trying. And that is a move to FBS given the conference's previous FBS affiliation. I don't know if it is possible but I believe that the MVC was at one time a FBS conference. And is it wild conjecture at this point that a Big East type of split takes place with Basketball vs Football with the MVC/MVFC - hell yes.

But, going back to MVFC membership. You still have college football insiders saying the The Sun Belt is still talking to Missouri State. If MSU leaves for FBS what does that mean for similar public football schools (UNI, ISU-R, ISU-B, SUI).
With where the Valley is now, I don't see that split happening. Murray is a football school but they are basketball first. They were also "offset" with Belmont and UIC - a basketball heavy/only school and a school to stay in Chicago.

The Valley is not going to become a football conference. There is zero interest in that happening from anyone in the conference. Remember the Valley dropped football after 85 when the true 1A/1AA split happened and they were forced to become a 1A conference if they continued. Tulsa parked football elsewhere until the rest of their programs moved in the mid 90s, West Texas AM went D2. ISUr, ISUb, SIU went Gateway. Drake went D3 until the Dayton rule force them PFL, and WSU dropped the sport.

There are 6 football schools (8 but D+ and Valpo don't count as football schools), which isn't enough to outvote anyone. The conference also realizes that adding football to become a "football conference" at the FBS level means those 6 football schools having to somehow double their football budgets, or more - which is going to impact basketball, volleyball, and baseball. That won't happen. The FBS also doesn't allow affiliates, AFAIK, so they idea of moving FBS and allowing the DSU's as an affiliate is out.

The idea of Missouri State going Sun Belt has been around for a decade, and at this point it's dead. The Sun Belt is adding schools and will be at 14 programs starting this year: App St, CCU, GASO, GAST, JMU, Marshall, ODU, Ark St, ULL, USA, USM, TxSt, Troy, ULM. Where is Missouri State fitting in there? Is someone leaving the SBC after this season? Is the SBC going to 16?

Even if MOSU leaves, it means little to nothing for the rest of the Valley schools with football. The MVFC goes back to 11 and things continue as they have for the last decade at this point.

There was a time about 4 years ago the Valley was on the edge of a Big East split, but the last 4-5 years and the additions have been focused on bringing the conference back together. Missouri State's AD and President also lead the expansion committee and proposed/steered moves they wanted that would keep them happy. Do things happen that could change that for MSU? Sure. It, as of now, isn't the Sun Belt and they told CUSA "Hell no" when they got approached about joining.

The WAC was FBS and a football conference until like 2011. Their wanting to be a football conference again makes more sense than the Valley, who shuttered football when they were forced to have to pick between FBS or no football.

[Yote 53]

NCAA rules do not allow for teams to form a new conference to make a move to FBS.

The NCAA is a shell of its former self. They have no power anymore. Liberty, etc. has called them on their bluff. The P5 has autonomy now and they could care less about what happens below their level. If there was a push to build a new FBS conference and you had state schools like the Dakotas and Montanas involved then the NCAA would also be taking on the congressional representatives from those states if they opposed. Good luck with the politicians.

[Yote 53]

St Peter's got 50 times the air play, coverage, articles, interview, etc. for one NCAA run than NDSU has gotten for all of their FCS titles - and spent a small fraction to do it.

Completely disagree with this statement. St. Peter's got a ton of run but in a few more weeks it will be "remember that one school, what's it's name..." NDSU has had Gameday TWICE and everybody in the country knows who they are. Heck, go to any website where they sell college swag like Fanatics and you won't find St. Peter's anywhere but you will see NDSU listed right up there next to all the P5 schools. How quantifiable that name brand is in terms of advertising dollars and what the ROI is on that I'll leave for others to figure out but will say pretty much every sports fan in the country knows who NDSU is. Maybe that is more to with Trey Lance and Carson Wentz in the NFL than winning FCS titles too.

[Hammersmith]

I don't think the MVFC as a whole would/could move up but if enough like minded FCS teams, most likely a conglomerate of MVFC and Big Sky schools, wanted to step up together and form a new FBS conference I don't think the NCAA would have much motivation to stop them if they have all the infrastructure in place. But the NCAA doesn't control bowl tie-ins or the CFP distribution which to me is the bigger hurdle since a new conference could not be competitive without those.

Biggest problem with a scenario like that is the FBS scheduling requirement. A transitioning school would need an absolute minimum of four home games versus established FBS programs or three home games and one neutral site game. They would also need two to three more FBS away games against non-transitioning teams. There would only be five spots in the schedule for other transitioning teams. And to be an accepted FBS conference, you need 8 full members(and FBS conferences must be all-sports).


FBS scheduling requirements:

60% must be played vs. FBS opponents (6/11 or 7/12)
5 home games vs. FBS opponents
1 FBS game can be a FCS program at 90%+ scholarships
1 home game can be at a neutral site



And I agree with the overall tone from non-NDSU fans on this thread that the NDSU fans(and a USD fan) are being whiny bitches. I got no problem with Murray State being added. The MVC schools helped out when we needed USD added to save the Summit, and again when UND needed a home. This should be nothing more than returning the favor. I do agree with the suspicion of a few on here that the NDSU vote was more of a political vote than a real dislike of Murray. I'd love to know if the other MVFC presidents were actually bothered by it. I know the NDSU pres informed the others that he was going to release how he voted, so I wonder if he asked them upfront if it was okay and explained his reasoning for doing it. Since all the other presidents share the same shoes, maybe they understood why he was doing it and gave him approval. Has anyone seen any responses from other MVFC presidents saying they're unhappy about the disclosure?


In some strange respects, this reminds me of the UND/Summit situation from around 2008. UND's president wanted to get the nickname change over with, but that decision was in the hands of the state government and they were dragging their feet to avoid the political hot potato. Almost out of nowhere, the Summit commish(Tom Douple) said the Summit would consider UND for membership but only after the nickname situation was resolved. Douple immediately became the most hated person in the world to UND fans, but it gave the politicians in Bismarck an out. Now it wasn't THEIR fault the nickname had to be changed, it was the fault of that terrible person from the Summit League. I was always suspicious about the timing of that, and it was confirmed when UND bailed on the Summit for the Big Sky. In a fit of anger immediately following UND's turnaround, Douple admitted to a reporter that the whole nickname thing had been staged for UND's benefit. I think the other presidents(probably mainly NDSU's and SDSU's) told him to shut up about it, and the story disappeared pretty quickly. But I think these both are/were situations where what's said publicly are not really the real reasons for certain actions.

[clenz]

Completely disagree with this statement. St. Peter's got a ton of run but in a few more weeks it will be "remember that one school, what's it's name..." NDSU has had Gameday TWICE and everybody in the country knows who they are. Heck, go to any website where they sell college swag like Fanatics and you won't find St. Peter's anywhere but you will see NDSU listed right up there next to all the P5 schools. How quantifiable that name brand is in terms of advertising dollars and what the ROI is on that I'll leave for others to figure out but will say pretty much every sports fan in the country knows who NDSU is. Maybe that is more to with Trey Lance and Carson Wentz in the NFL than winning FCS titles too.
I'm not trying to downplay anything NDSU has had in terms of national press. What they've had is amazing.

The reason I mentioned it is the number of studies/universities release numbers that show that a MM making a run in the tournament is worth so much in marketing, advertising, and ROI that it's almost impossible to calculate and it goes far beyond just athletics selling things and people knowing the mascot. I would have to go find the various numbers but schools with that kind of run see a significant bump in applications from students who have higher test scores, high GPAs, more extra curriculars, etc. It's not a small bump either, IIRC there are some that showed a 40-50% increase in that kind of applicant after such a run. Now, if it isn't carried forward it does come back down after 3 or 4 years but the baseline quality of applicant still stays higher than it was before. The numbers from the TV/marketing people say that having your school play in the S16/E8 is worth multiples of millions in free advertising that your school otherwise wouldn't have had the ability to spend

Not only that St. Peter's got all of that with an operating budget less than about half of what NDSU pays Matt Entz each year. It's why I keep saying the ROI is so skewed to basketball programs being strong and focusing on getting your basketball programs up. The G5 level of the FBS has become a bit of a no mans land. You need to spend so much damn money on it to even try to be average that you're ROI from tickets, donors, sponsorships, etc. is going to be in the red still for 98% of the G5 - just like the FCS but at double the cost.

JMU spent 10 million on football. Did they make 11 million dollars back? NDSU is something like 8 or 9 million. I guess they might make it back, but I would guess whatever in the black they are isn't a higher % of ROI.

Is USD running in the black in football every year? I honestly don't know. I know at schools like UNI, ISUR, ISUB, and 99% of the FCS the goal is to get close to breaking even, and with that there is no playoff money from the NCAA to reward success. The playoffs actually lose money for everyone outside of NDSU, Montana, Montana State and JMU with how the revenue split works.

What type of ROI is someone like UNI truly going to get going from 3.5-4m on football to 9 or 10m on football? Ticket sales aren't making up for it. Sponsorships aren't going to increase at the same rate. FBS pay dates are going to get any higher.

All the talk of "one bid league...if you ignore all the multiple bids" is why the MVC focuses on basketball. More people care about college basketball than the FCS. You can run basketball at the same funding of football (3-3.5m in UNI's case) and make significantly more in return, and you have the conference sending money out because of basketball payouts. You work on getting your teams to the levels of getting multiple bids and winning games in the NCAA tournament and all of a sudden even more money is coming in.

I get it's why NDSU is going "FBS makes sense" because they are spending at that level and believe they have the ROI on it. Unless you have that kind of fan base, corporate sponsors, etc. it is a losing financial battle.

And even at that, using NDSU as proof of "spend on football" is using the 1% of the 1% of the 1% to show the exception to the rule. It's working for NDSU, it worked for JMU (though they did so on the backs of saddling generations of students with more debt). If you start to look at even the next level of the FCS and the ROI on football, and does basketball or football bring more national awareness, you're going to find a losing battle pretty quickly as you work down the pole. Even for UNI we have a very long history of football. We have an NFL HOFer. We have multiple guys in the NFL every year. About to have a top 10-15 picks. Have had dozens and dozens of guys in the NFL and more than a few long time starters/all pros. The things people will stop and talk to UNI fans about when they see us wearing a UNI shirt is basketball. Eventually a guy like Warner or Paup will come up, but the basketball program is what carries it.

For SDSU they were one tournament win this year away from being the same thing. No one nationally will give a **** about their runner up in Spring 21. A relatively fair, but probably still niche, amount of the more hardcore NFL fans will go "Vinatieri!". If SDSU was able to actually capitalize on any of their basketball seasons all of a sudden the Jack Rabbit name becomes known for that and that lingers. People remember those. You then turn that one season into two and it builds.

Hell, even with NDSU they are a real solid basketball program away from a MWC invite. The MWC wants nothing to do with sending programs to Fargo, in general. Doing so with that program compared to the rest the MWC is a MASSIVE roadblock. It's going to sting to hear but maybe spending more than 1.3m on a basketball program and getting to a point where you have the matched commitment of a MWC program and can show value to the BB portion of the league has that added ROI.

[Hammersmith]

Hell, even with NDSU they are a real solid basketball program away from a MWC invite. The MWC wants nothing to do with sending programs to Fargo, in general. Doing so with that program compared to the rest the MWC is a MASSIVE roadblock. It's going to sting to hear but maybe spending more than 1.3m on a basketball program and getting to a point where you have the matched commitment of a MWC program and can show value to the BB portion of the league has that added ROI.

Just want to say that there are at least a few NDSU fans that agree with this. I really wish we would/could pump at least an extra $2M/year into MBB. Even if you're still in a one-bid league, there's a world of difference between a regular 11-13 seed versus a perpetual 15-16 seed. (Though I'm far more interested in the MAC over the MWC as "foot in the door" conference. I think MWC would be a long-term disaster due to travel, time zone differences, and recruiting territory mismatch.)

[clenz]

FWIW an extra 2 million gets to the Valley level budget. To get to MWC you need another 4-5 to get to average. I don't remember the MAC average of the top of my head.

Granted, budget doesn't equal quality. I realize. However, it certainly makes a massive difference when you are an outlier one way or the other on that spectrum. It also makes a difference in terms of conference quality. It's not a coincidence the Valley ranks in the top 9-12 every year in conference NET and is in the same region for budget average. You won't see many conferences in the 20s of the net with a high average budget.

[Hammersmith]

FWIW an extra 2 million gets to the Valley level budget

To get to MWC you need another 4-5 to get to average.

Truth, but that's why I added the 'at least' qualifier. Extra $2M to get to solid MM and regular 11-13 seeds. Enough to get noticed. Then start bumping it up from there. But we're not even at the "get noticed" stage right now in MBB. A few appearances and a single first round win(plus a play-in win) is just not going to cut it.

Unless NDSU admins have solid data that says something else, I would do something like this:
1. Hold FB budget in place for a bit.
2. Bump MBB budget to MVC level.
3. Make enough combined FCS/MBB noise to get an FBS invite.
4. Boost FB budget to be very competitive in new conference and boost MBB enough to not be a bottom feeder.
5. Boost MBB budget to do the same as FB.

Of course there would be upgrades for the non-revenue sports as well, but that's not the purpose of this reply.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't think the MVFC as a whole would/could move up but if enough like minded FCS teams, most likely a conglomerate of MVFC and Big Sky schools, wanted to step up together and form a new FBS conference I don't think the NCAA would have much motivation to stop them if they have all the infrastructure in place. But the NCAA doesn't control bowl tie-ins or the CFP distribution which to me is the bigger hurdle since a new conference could not be competitive without those.

The best opportunity for this to take place was a few months ago when CUSA went from like 14 teams to 5 in the blink of an eye. NDSU, SDSU, Idaho, Montana and Montana State could've collectively approached Conference USA and pitched a Mountain West Division, where they'd be alongside New Mexico St and UTEP. Would've made CUSA a lot stronger IMO. And all 5 schools would've had the FBS conference invite required to move up.

[clenz]

NDSU and MOSU both told cusa no from what has been reported.

Also imagine wanting fbs so badly you think a conference stretching from Missoula to Fargo to Springfield to Las Crusas to University Park Florida would be a good idea

Idaho tried that. There’s a reason they are back in the big sky


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NDSU1980]

The best opportunity for this to take place was a few months ago when CUSA went from like 14 teams to 5 in the blink of an eye. NDSU, SDSU, Idaho, Montana and Montana State could've collectively approached Conference USA and pitched a Mountain West Division, where they'd be alongside New Mexico St and UTEP. Would've made CUSA a lot stronger IMO. And all 5 schools would've had the FBS conference invite required to move up.For that to happen NDSU would have had to have an AD with some desire and ambition. Ours had neither. Couldn't even pick up the phone and call.

[Bisonoline]

For that to happen NDSU would have had to have an AD with some desire and ambition. Ours had neither. Couldn't even pick up the phone and call.

That is uninformed opinion. You have no knowledge of those scenarios.

[WestCoastAggie]

NDSU and MOSU both told cusa no from what has been reported.

Also imagine wanting fbs so badly you think a conference stretching from Missoula to Fargo to Springfield to Las Crusas to University Park Florida would be a good idea

Idaho tried that. There’s a reason they are back in the big sky


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm... What's the difference between Idaho and Boise State besides football? Why did Idaho never stick in the MWC and why did they never look Montana or MSU's way?

[clenz]

Hmm... What's the difference between Idaho and Boise State besides football? Why did Idaho never stick in the MWC and why did they never look Montana or MSU's way?
Well to start -
Boise vs Moscow
Size of alumni/fan base
Boise State's enrollment double that of Idaho
Boise State's stadium has held over 30k since the 90s - Idaho plays in a really ****ty dome maxed at 16k

Idaho Joined the Big West in 1996, which folded in 2000. They then went Sun Belt for a few years, then the WAC which also folded, then back to the Sun Belt and then dropped FCS. Boise State followed the same timeline but went WAC to MWC beacuse they clearly had the commitment, money, fans, and success. Idaho, meanwhile, the money, fan base, success, etc. to make the jump from the WAC to MWC. Remember the MWC was adding programs like Boise and TCU. Not bottom of the barrel, smallest FBS programs, like Idaho. Idaho was a truly **** FBS program. Hell, they aren't even a good FCS program anymore. They bought a bill of goods that they would never be able to actually collect.

Montana and Montana State, famously, wanted nothing to do with the FBS. Actively spoke out against the FBS. That is why the MWC never approached them, even if they otherwise would have. They saw Idaho failing every where they went, and wanted no part in bankrupting their athletics and university chasing the "FBS dream".

Montana and Montana State are exponentially more healthy to handle an FBS move now than Idaho ever was.

[Laker]

Hmm... What's the difference between Idaho and Boise State besides football? Why did Idaho never stick in the MWC and why did they never look Montana or MSU's way?

I have teacher friends in Boise. The place has boomed population wise. Moscow has not. What is it, 12 miles to Pullman and Washington State? Not a big area to draw from.

[SDFS]

Well to start -
Boise vs Moscow
Size of alumni/fan base
Boise State's enrollment double that of Idaho
Boise State's stadium has held over 30k since the 90s - Idaho plays in a really ****ty dome maxed at 16k

Idaho Joined the Big West in 1996, which folded in 2000. They then went Sun Belt for a few years, then the WAC which also folded, then back to the Sun Belt and then dropped FCS. Boise State followed the same timeline but went WAC to MWC beacuse they clearly had the commitment, money, fans, and success. Idaho, meanwhile, the money, fan base, success, etc. to make the jump from the WAC to MWC. Remember the MWC was adding programs like Boise and TCU. Not bottom of the barrel, smallest FBS programs, like Idaho. Idaho was a truly **** FBS program. Hell, they aren't even a good FCS program anymore. They bought a bill of goods that they would never be able to actually collect.

Montana and Montana State, famously, wanted nothing to do with the FBS. Actively spoke out against the FBS. That is why the MWC never approached them, even if they otherwise would have. They saw Idaho failing every where they went, and wanted no part in bankrupting their athletics and university chasing the "FBS dream".

Montana and Montana State are exponentially more healthy to handle an FBS move now than Idaho ever was.

I have family in Boise, and I think you are missing a key component - Boise St. had strong local political connections to help spur their growth. Boise St. academically has made great strides, but they have a long way to go. It is currently holding them back. And the enrollment numbers can be misleading. As my nephew says, BSU has one of the best truck driving schools around.

Total R&D Expenditures ($000)
Idaho - $113,107
Boise State - $39,824

[F'N Hawks]

I have family in Boise, and I think you are missing a key component - Boise St. had strong local political connections to help spur their growth. Boise St. academically has made great strides, but they have a long way to go. It is currently holding them back. And the enrollment numbers can be misleading. As my nephew says, BSU has one of the best truck driving schools around.

Total R&D Expenditures ($000)
Idaho - $113,107
Boise State - $39,824

Their academics are part of what helps the athletic programs, they can get anybody in school. It also makes them less than appealing to the P5 Presidents at the same time.

[ElCid]

I have family in Boise, and I think you are missing a key component - Boise St. had strong local political connections to help spur their growth. Boise St. academically has made great strides, but they have a long way to go. It is currently holding them back. And the enrollment numbers can be misleading. As my nephew says, BSU has one of the best truck driving schools around.

Total R&D Expenditures ($000)
Idaho - $113,107
Boise State - $39,824

I always thought that Idaho was grasping at Boise's coattails when they moved to FBS. Made little sense. I think there was Boise envy going on by all the key characters and fans and Idaho hoped to not be left behind. A keeping up with the Jones kind of thing.

[clenz]

I have family in Boise, and I think you are missing a key component - Boise St. had strong local political connections to help spur their growth. Boise St. academically has made great strides, but they have a long way to go. It is currently holding them back. And the enrollment numbers can be misleading. As my nephew says, BSU has one of the best truck driving schools around.

Total R&D Expenditures ($000)
Idaho - $113,107
Boise State - $39,824
People paying money to the school, regardless the program, is people paying money to the school.

Boise State has about 20k of them a year. Idaho has about 10k of them a year.

Political movement is with every university in the country. This thread has covered, in great detail, the issues around UND/Big Sky/Summit/MVFC from a political issue. It gets into politics when talking UNI funding compared to Iowa or Iowa State. It gets into the political pull in SD with Augie wanting to move up, USD and SDSU fighting it, having to balance USD/SDSU politically, and why USD was the first school to be allowed multiple year coaching contracts when it became the make or break deal between them hiring Bob Nielson or not.

Liberty may only have 15k on campus, but they have 125k paying tuition every year. No wonder they have more money than god to threaten the NCAA to get what they want. It's why Liberty finally got into a conference with CUSA - the conference was desperate and Liberty went "Here's all the money you want if you let us in". It's all political.

Everyone talks about Boise's academics, but I think the value/how much it holds them back, is slightly overstated, especially as we move forward. It's an open secret they are going to be a B12 school by 2026. They just announced an "athletics village" that is going to cost hundreds of millions. They aren't doing that to stay in the MWC. Boise State was "chosen" as the political push in Idaho because Boise vs Moscow. The Boise metro is something like 800k with no one to share it with. Moscow is in the Pullman "metro" and shares it with Washington State. Pullman and Moscow combine for about 55-60k. Imagine hitching your wagon to growing Idaho to the level that you can with Boise in that population area where you are 10 miles from a PAC 12 school that is proof that the area isn't large enough to sustain one major school, let alone two. You are an hour and a half south of Spokane where you are then fighting wit Gonzaga (good luck), EWU, and then the left over Washington and Washington State base (and to a decent extent Montana).

Trying to push Idaho would have been a losing battle from the start. The old WAC was the ceiling for Idaho given their size and ability to grow regionally.

[SDFS]

People paying money to the school, regardless the program, is people paying money to the school.

Boise State has about 20k of them a year. Idaho has about 10k of them a year.

Political movement is with every university in the country. This thread has covered, in great detail, the issues around UND/Big Sky/Summit/MVFC from a political issue. It gets into politics when talking UNI funding compared to Iowa or Iowa State. It gets into the political pull in SD with Augie wanting to move up, USD and SDSU fighting it, having to balance USD/SDSU politically, and why USD was the first school to be allowed multiple year coaching contracts when it became the make or break deal between them hiring Bob Nielson or not.

Liberty may only have 15k on campus, but they have 125k paying tuition every year. No wonder they have more money than god to threaten the NCAA to get what they want. It's why Liberty finally got into a conference with CUSA - the conference was desperate and Liberty went "Here's all the money you want if you let us in". It's all political.

Everyone talks about Boise's academics, but I think the value/how much it holds them back, is slightly overstated, especially as we move forward. It's an open secret they are going to be a B12 school by 2026. They just announced an "athletics village" that is going to cost hundreds of millions. They aren't doing that to stay in the MWC. Boise State was "chosen" as the political push in Idaho because Boise vs Moscow. The Boise metro is something like 800k with no one to share it with. Moscow is in the Pullman "metro" and shares it with Washington State. Pullman and Moscow combine for about 55-60k. Imagine hitching your wagon to growing Idaho to the level that you can with Boise in that population area where you are 10 miles from a PAC 12 school that is proof that the area isn't large enough to sustain one major school, let alone two. You are an hour and a half south of Spokane where you are then fighting wit Gonzaga (good luck), EWU, and then the left over Washington and Washington State base (and to a decent extent Montana).

Trying to push Idaho would have been a losing battle from the start. The old WAC was the ceiling for Idaho given their size and ability to grow regionally.

13K full time undergrad and 1.2K full time grad - I understand they are going to Big 12. But, they have a long way to go on the academics and when you really compare school profiles for all Big 12 Schools with BSU. They standout and not in a good way. But, they bring a brand which is what drives college sports.

[clenz]

13K full time undergrad and 1.2K full time grad - I understand they are going to Big 12. But, they have a long way to go on the academics and when you really compare school profiles for all Big 12 Schools with BSU. They standout and not in a good way. But, they bring a brand which is what drives college sports.
Fall 2021 Boise had 3068 graduate students and 20,145 degree seeking undergrads though they had 25,829 total undergrads paying tutiont (I'm assuming certificate/continuing ed programs)

Idaho, in fall 2021, reported 11,303 students with 1,947 of those being grad students.

As I said, Boise is literally double the size of Idaho. From the start that is why Boise was the horse they all picked to ride with.

You're (royal) are over valuing the B12 importance on Academics. This isn't the B10 or P12 where that clearly is a vital part of it. The B12 has the lowest "school rankings" of any major conference, especially on the public side. The publics in the B12 average in the 180s in the US News rankings - talk about politics being why things happen why they do, these rankings are near the top of that list. Would boise be the lowest ranked? Sure. Let's not pretend like Boise is a JUCO trying to join the Ivy's here. Iowa State, Texas Tech, Okie State, WVU, and Kansas State, Cinci, Houston, and UCF would all REALLY struggle to pass the "academic muster" test of the B10 or P12. And to be honest if it wasn't for Kansas's basketball program there would be cases made that their overall university academic profile isn't great in terms of fitting with the B10. However, as you realized, warts are able to be overlooked when money and athletic profile can be added and made.

Other than being higher ranked by US News there is literally nothing that Idaho could offer any conference that Boise can't do, and do so at double to quadruple the level.