Another chance for AE Football?

[aceinthehole]

Breaking news is the University of Hartford has completed a study which recommends, due to fiscal issues that can't be fixed, that the school seek D-III membership. No word yet if the decision has been made and what the timeline might be.

https://www.wtnh.com/news/news-8-exclusive/exclusive-could-the-university-of-hartford-downgrade-its-athletic-program/

Playing devil's advocate here :) - that would drop America East to 9 members (4 of which have football teams in the CAA):

1. Albany (CAA Football)
2. Binghamton
3. Maine (CAA Football)
4. UMBC
5. UMass-Lowell
6. New Hampshire (CAA Football)
7. NJIT
8. Stony Brook (CAA Football)
9. Vermont

Replacing Hartford with Central Connecticut would return the league to 10 teams and a 18-game basketball schedule. It would also give the AE another football school. There are an additional 3 football schools in the region that already have affiliate football membership outside of their home conference that would be very interested in AE football:

1. Monmouth (MAAC / Big South football)
2. Rhode Island (A-10 / CAA Football)
3. Robert Morris (Horizon / Big South football)

If the AE sees any value in sponsoring football (which I'm not sure they do), I think they would be immediately eligible for the AQ since they would have had 5 members together in the CAA.

America East Football:
1. Albany
2. Central Connecticut
3. Maine
4. Monmouth
5. Rhode Island
6. Robert Morris
7. New Hampshire
8. Stony Brook

[Libertine]

My two takeaways from the linked article that have nothing to do with the America East:

1. Based on previous experience with Carr Sports Consulting, their reports and recommendations will line up perfectly with whatever conclusion the school that hired them wants. Their job isn't to evaluate and recommend, it's to rubber-stamp whatever the school is already planning.
2. Hartford's president seems shady as hell.
“Obviously it has gotten out. The document you are holding is supposed to be confidential,” said university president Gregory Woodward. It's a confidential document that "somehow leaked" but the leader of the university is perfectly willing and prepared to talk about it with a media source? Not a single "no comment, nothing is decided"? Come on.

[DFW HOYA]

Based on previous experience with Carr Sports Consulting, their reports and recommendations will line up perfectly with whatever conclusion the school that hired them wants. Their job isn't to evaluate and recommend, it's to rubber-stamp whatever the school is already planning.

Agree 110%.

[aceinthehole]

Yep, that's what makes this report so damaging. It appears to read exactly as the President wanted it to - make the case to support leadership moving Hartford down to D-III.

Hartford just doesn't have the history (D-I since 1985) nor the alumni or community support to push back much. With an enrollment of 5k, tuition near $50k, in a crowded higher education market (Quinnipiac, Sacred Heart, Fairfield, Trinity, Wesleyan, and even CCSU), I'm not sure they can (or should) survive at this level.

On a side note, this seems similar to the experience at Lafayette - any thoughts?

And back to FCS, I still think this is the best opportunity (though still a long shot) of the creation of America East football. I know UNH fans and others may not like the idea of a new affiliation and losing Delaware, JMU and W&M as conference mates, but with the budgetary impacts on athletics programs due to COVID and the economy of higher education, this might require further consideration.

[DFW HOYA]

America East Football:
1. Albany
2. Central Connecticut
3. Maine
4. Monmouth
5. Rhode Island
6. Robert Morris
7. New Hampshire
8. Stony Brook

Robert Morris is an outlier here in more ways than one. Why not LIU?

[aceinthehole]

Robert Morris is an outlier here in more ways than one. Why not LIU?

Simple - this assumes that the AE would be willing to add just 1 full member (CCSU) to replace Hartford and then sign up associate members for football. LIU is in NEC and wouldn't be able to pull their football program outside to be an affiliate. Plus, I doubt Stony Brook wants to have LIU in their league in any manner.

RMU and Monmouth are both in the same situation since leaving the NEC. Big South football is only a temporary solution and both programs would run at the chance to join a Northeast-based league.

Again, I doubt UNH and SBU would support this plan, as they would probably consider it a significant downgrade. Albany and Maine are probably on the fence, but would likely align with UNH and SBU. While URI and the new members would probably be ecstatic at this new opportunity.

[Pinnum]

My two takeaways from the linked article that have nothing to do with the America East:

1. Based on previous experience with Carr Sports Consulting, their reports and recommendations will line up perfectly with whatever conclusion the school that hired them wants. Their job isn't to evaluate and recommend, it's to rubber-stamp whatever the school is already planning.
2. Hartford's president seems shady as hell. It's a confidential document that "somehow leaked" but the leader of the university is perfectly willing and prepared to talk about it with a media source? Not a single "no comment, nothing is decided"? Come on.


100%.

The President is trying to kill D1 sports and hired someone to confirm his position to sell it to the board. Now he is getting out ahead of it by making the asinine statement that Hartford loses $13 Million a year on an athletic department that doesn't event spend $13 Million a year.

I am sure he was pretty disappointed when their basketball team made the NCAA tournament earlier this month and energized the alumni around sports.

[aceinthehole]

I know we're all sports fans, but let's be honest the numbers are accurate, we just don't want to believe it. Forget expenses, but what is Hartford's revenue sources other than student fees/institutional support?

Ticket sales - They likely collect less than $500k annually across all sports
Media fees - Zero, they spend more money for production than they get for broadcast rights
NCAA distributions - The conference takes most of tis for operations and I think the school gets less than $500k
Game guarantees - Not many of these on the schedule; again less than $500k annually
Advertising - As a smaller program with limited exposure, I doubt they make more than $1.5 million a year

I count about $3 million in revenue, but let's say it's more maybe up to $5 million. So the balance for all expenses has to comes from donations or the school's operating budget.

Honestly, the math is simple, yet depressing for small colleges like this.

[Pinnum]

I know we're all sports fans, but let's be honest the numbers are accurate, we just don't want to believe it. Forget expenses, but what is Hartford's revenue sources other than student fees/institutional support?

Ticket sales - They likely collect less than $500k annually across all sports
Media fees - Zero, they spend more money for production than they get for broadcast rights
NCAA distributions - The conference takes most of tis for operations and I think the school gets less than $500k
Game guarantees - Not many of these on the schedule; again less than $500k annually
Advertising - As a smaller program with limited exposure, I doubt they make more than $1.5 million a year

I count about $3 million in revenue, but let's say it's more maybe up to $5 million. So the balance for all expenses has to comes from donations or the school's operating budget.

Honestly, the math is simple, yet depressing for small colleges like this.

No, this is not correct.

Their most recent financial disclosures to the Depart of Education listed their total athletic spending at $10 Million. That would be the maximum they could "lose" and that is assuming $0 in revenue. As you listed, they have revenue. It may be low but it isn't $0.

It should be noted that their expenses also includes "scholarships" as being an expense but scholarships at private schools is not real money. It is a discount in tuition that is provided to a student. The sticker price for the full cost of attendance is $60k. But that is not the actual cost to the school for the scholarship. The typical student at Hartford only pays $30k a year to attend. So the replacement value is half of what they report.

It is true that D1 sports costs the school money (100% it costs the school money) it is not true that they lose $13 Million as claimed by the President. That figure is not even being close to accurate. And considering the proposal is to move to D3 sports rather than eliminating sports, you will still have a lot of the same costs like facilities, staff, medical, insurance, etc. It will just be a lower amount. Travel will be reduced but not eliminated. Fewer hotel stays, sure, but you're not saving a ton of money when the NEC's footprint isn't much larger than a D3 conference could be.

[DFW HOYA]

It should be noted that their expenses also includes "scholarships" as being an expense but scholarships at private schools is not real money. It is a discount in tuition that is provided to a student. The sticker price for the full cost of attendance is $60k. But that is not the actual cost to the school for the scholarship. The typical student at Hartford only pays $30k a year to attend. So the replacement value is half of what they report.

Depends on the school. At some private schools, the cost of a scholarship is marginal, because enrollment is variable, i.e., they are not taking a space away from a full paying customer. At schools with fixed enrollments, it is close to a zero-sum proposition.

[aceinthehole]

Since Hartford is private and we can't see their books, I will share CCSU's audited numbers for FY 2019 only as a comparison:

Ticket sales: $50,094
Other sales: $14,366
Guarantees: $789,000
NCAA Distro: $416,337
Conference Distro: $207,669
Royalties/Licensing: $21,552

That's $1.5 Million revenue and limited room for growth. I'm quite certain, Hartford isn't totaling more than $2.0 million for those same revenue categories.

So the only other revenue sources are:
- Endowment/Investment income
- Direct/Indirect Institutional support
- Other contributions/donations

Again, looking at CCSU's FY 2019 expenses as a comparison:

Coaching salaries & benefits: $4,488,231
Support/Admin salaries & benefits: $2,666,099
Team travel: $912,389
Game expenses: $286,004
Uniforms/equipment: $297,515

That's $6.25 Million and Hartford likely spend more than that, somewhere between 7-8 million. That doesn't include other direct administrative/overhead expenses and student aid which is another 6-8 million.

Like it or not, student aid (tuition, room, and board) are real costs that have to be accounted for. The bottom line here is Hartford is looking at a annual cash deficit of at least $5 million, plus overhead and student aid costs of another 6-8 million which is how you get the total of $13 million.

[Pinnum]

Depends on the school. At some private schools, the cost of a scholarship is marginal, because enrollment is variable, i.e., they are not taking a space away from a full paying customer. At schools with fixed enrollments, it is close to a zero-sum proposition.


You're is correct. The equation is different with schools that have robust waitlists due to demand well exceeding the number they admit. Hartford is not one of these schools. But even if that were true, the number would be the replacement value which in this case is half. But for Hartford it is likely less than half because demand isn't too high and outside of basketball they utilize partial scholarships.

[Pinnum]

That's $6.25 Million and Hartford likely spend more than that, somewhere between 7-8 million.


A football public school compared to a non-football private school will actually be pretty even.





Like it or not, student aid (tuition, room, and board) are real costs that have to be accounted for. The bottom line here is Hartford is looking at a annual cash deficit of at least $5 million, plus student aid costs of another 6-8 million which is how you get the total of $13 million.

No, it is not. At a public school it is because many states have laws that prohibit giving away public resources to individuals without providing accounting. In a private school, institutional grants and scholarships are not real money. It is simply a coupon for reduced price.

The number of $5 Million is probably in the ball park. It is no where near the $13 Million that the President is using the bolster his position to kill D1 sports.

I get the feeling you're hopeful they eliminate D1 sports so you can take their AEC slot.

[aceinthehole]

I get the feeling you're hopeful they eliminate D1 sports so you can take their AEC slot.

Of course I am :), but I'm also being upfront about the fiscal struggles at CCSU and similar programs. The situation at mid-majors is nothing like what the P5 has to deal with.

I mean CCSU's $50k in ticket sales is an embarrassment, but there's limited opportunity to increase that. I'm betting Hartford's situation is actually worse without football and basketball attendance is lower than Central.

I just don't get how you ignore the "discount" and associated overhead costs just because Hartford is private. Dorms, meal plans, and academic support has a real cost that isn't being collected through tuition/fees. I guess I just don't know how you can say that isn't a real cost to a business.

I'm not an accounting major, but I've done enough work in public budgeting to understand everything has a cost and nothing is "free." I'm not suggesting the Uha President doesn't have a political agenda (clearly, he does), but I don't have much disagreement with the findings.

[Pinnum]

The situation at mid-majors is nothing like what the P5 has to deal with.


Who is claiming it is?




I just don't get how you ignore the "discount" and associated overhead costs just because Hartford is private. Dorms, meal plans, and academic support has a real cost that isn't being collected through tuition/fees. I guess I just don't know how you can say that isn't a real cost to a business.

I'm not an accounting major, but I've done enough work in public budgeting to understand everything has a cost and nothing is "free." I'm not suggesting the Uha President doesn't have a political agenda (clearly, he does), but I don't have much disagreement with the findings.


There are costs but they are not properly accounted for here.

Hartford has underutilized facilities. They have dorms that are not full. They have a very high acceptance rate and a low yield. Those slots are not going to be filled if they eliminate athletes. Which is why they aren't looking to remove sports. They want sports. They just want D3 sports. So the only loss is the scholarship portion. And Hartford uses partial scholarships (as many schools in their position) for their sports. They spread around the scholarships and their teams aren't fully funded. Kids on scholarship (outside of basketball) are still paying money. So it isn't as if they are giving away 100% free spots. Additionally, as part of the scholarship process the students still file for federal financial aid. It is a condition of being able to accept a scholarship. So the school often is still getting money for kids. Sign a basketball player from a low income family and you get any state/federal aid that would be available to that student with the remainder of the costs waived by their scholarship.

So you're right there are costs to the school. But the school is still getting revenue for each head on scholarship. And the costs often will still be there even if the athlete isn't there. The dorm has costs even if not being utilized, for instance, so you might as well put a kid in it who is a part of a marketing arm of the school and one that helps add vibrancy and diversity to the campus.


I have spent a lot of time reviewing finances at many schools to know these figures are not accurate. And while D3 would cost them less (as I have said) the truth is that if the Board saw the actual difference in the figures they might not be too motivated for change.

There is no doubt there is an agenda by the President to change the complexion of the school.

[Sader87]

My hunch is we will see more UHah's in the coming years. I think the FCS-level itself is somewhat imperiled actually. It's a costly undertaking with not a lot of bang for the buck for a fair amount of schools. It won't happen ovahnight, but down the road I could see some FCS programs being absorbed by the FBS, schools reclassifying divisions and/or eliminating football altogether.

[aceinthehole]

There are costs but they are not properly accounted for here.



Fair enough, but how would you quantify those costs at Hartford into dollars?

Anyway you look at it, Hartford built that "excess capacity" at a cost and isn't fully recouping it in revenues.

It was recently reported by state officials that UConn was "losing" $42 million a year, so I have no problem acknowledging that Hartford and CCSU are each losing about $10-14 million a year. You can call it accounting tricks or whatever, but I think those number are in the ballpark.

[Pinnum]

Fair enough, but how would you quantify those costs at Hartford into dollars?

Anyway you look at it, Hartford built that "excess capacity" at a cost and isn't fully recouping it in revenues.

It was recently reported by state officials that UConn was "losing" $42 million a year, so I have no problem acknowledging that Hartford and CCSU are each losing about $10-14 million a year. You can call it accounting tricks or whatever, but I think those number are in the ballpark.

UConn's losses are much more real dollars than Hartford.

Public schools use real dollars much more often because they have state agency audits. Also, they blow a ton of money in their athletic department. They have been in an arms race with BC, Syracuse, and Rutgers while not getting that P5 money. They also have had a large athletic department with a lot more teams than the likes of Syracuse.

UConn no doubt gets more "exposure" for their losses than Hartford. But it doesn't mean they get a return on that.

Back to the question at hand. The costs would be best amortized over a period of time based on a reduced capacity. (You always run your numbers below capacity so you can handle worse case scenarios and leave you being positive.)

Losses are a hard to quantify because you don't know what students are paying for. You could consider the science lab to be a loss if you wanted. It meets the same criteria as athletics. Ticket sales to lab hours are abysmal and corporate sponsorship is lacking. The school gives out scholarships for students that perform at a high level. Or you could say it is a large part of the season kids go there and is a part of your core mission. The same is true of your Political Economy club. It could be a loss or it could be core programing that serves the mission of your school. The same is true of athletics. Dropping to D3 won't eliminate losses. If you're going to provide sports, you will sustain "losses" for them as long as you classify any spending on athletic programs that isn't recovered by ticket sales and corporate sponsorship to be a loss. But if that is the metric then you're still going to have large losses in D3. It would still be classified as millions in losses. But of course, the goal post would change and they would say that those programs are revenue generating because they would choose to consider the tuition coming in from the teams as revenue. Interesting how they won't count that currently on the revenue side.

I have no dog in the fight. I have been to the campus on a few occasions (as well as CCSU an equal number of time). I don't know what programs the stakeholders value at Harford. A move to NEC would seem like a better fit based on my understanding of the school but I haven't done my due diligence. Maybe they would be better off in D3? But there is no way the numbers being discussed by the President are accurate and made in good faith. It is clear he doesn't value the programs and is trying to shape the narrative and sell the fact that a "expert" consultant came to the same conclusion.

[DFW HOYA]

Another point: with no more than 10 or 12 exceptions, a Division III school will likely have far fewer applicants than a Division I school by the sheer fact that they are less well known. No one is accusing Hartford of being Wesleyan, but moving to a conference with such schools as Castleton, Keene State, or Eastern Connecticut State isn't going to be a long term growth play.

[aceinthehole]

Another point: with no more than 10 or 12 exceptions, a Division III school will likely have far fewer applicants than a Division I school by the sheer fact that they are less well known. No one is accusing Hartford of being Wesleyan, but moving to a conference with such schools as Castleton, Keene State, or Eastern Connecticut State isn't going to be a long term growth play.

Agreed :)

Ah .. The Little East ... many of those schools were the old New England State Teachers College Conference from the 1940s and 50s that even the "New Britain Teachers" outgrew ;)

Hartford is a perfect fit for the NEC, and might do better in the MAAC than America East. At the D-III level, their best bet would be in the Liberty League with RPI, RIT, Hobart, Rochester, etc. or possibly the NEWMAC with Springfield, Clark, MIT, WPI, etc.

[WestCoastAggie]

Breaking news is the University of Hartford has completed a study which recommends, due to fiscal issues that can't be fixed, that the school seek D-III membership. No word yet if the decision has been made and what the timeline might be.

https://www.wtnh.com/news/news-8-exclusive/exclusive-could-the-university-of-hartford-downgrade-its-athletic-program/

Playing devil's advocate here :) - that would drop America East to 9 members (4 of which have football teams in the CAA):

1. Albany (CAA Football)
2. Binghamton
3. Maine (CAA Football)
4. UMBC
5. UMass-Lowell
6. New Hampshire (CAA Football)
7. NJIT
8. Stony Brook (CAA Football)
9. Vermont

Replacing Hartford with Central Connecticut would return the league to 10 teams and a 18-game basketball schedule. It would also give the AE another football school. There are an additional 3 football schools in the region that already have affiliate football membership outside of their home conference that would be very interested in AE football:

1. Monmouth (MAAC / Big South football)
2. Rhode Island (A-10 / CAA Football)
3. Robert Morris (Horizon / Big South football)

If the AE sees any value in sponsoring football (which I'm not sure they do), I think they would be immediately eligible for the AQ since they would have had 5 members together in the CAA.

America East Football:
1. Albany
2. Central Connecticut
3. Maine
4. Monmouth
5. Rhode Island
6. Robert Morris
7. New Hampshire
8. Stony Brook

Knocking Monmouth and Robert Morris away from the Big South would drop below the AQ limit for football. That puts them in a very precarious position for the sport.

[WestCoastAggie]

No, this is not correct.

Their most recent financial disclosures to the Depart of Education listed their total athletic spending at $10 Million. That would be the maximum they could "lose" and that is assuming $0 in revenue. As you listed, they have revenue. It may be low but it isn't $0.

It should be noted that their expenses also includes "scholarships" as being an expense but scholarships at private schools is not real money. It is a discount in tuition that is provided to a student. The sticker price for the full cost of attendance is $60k. But that is not the actual cost to the school for the scholarship. The typical student at Hartford only pays $30k a year to attend. So the replacement value is half of what they report.

It is true that D1 sports costs the school money (100% it costs the school money) it is not true that they lose $13 Million as claimed by the President. That figure is not even being close to accurate. And considering the proposal is to move to D3 sports rather than eliminating sports, you will still have a lot of the same costs like facilities, staff, medical, insurance, etc. It will just be a lower amount. Travel will be reduced but not eliminated. Fewer hotel stays, sure, but you're not saving a ton of money when the NEC's footprint isn't much larger than a D3 conference could be.

They would save money on scholarships in general.

[DFW HOYA]

Knocking Monmouth and Robert Morris away from the Big South would drop below the AQ limit for football. That puts them in a very precarious position for the sport.

If we're playing scenarios, the situation with the MEAC may open up opportunities for the Big South to pick up some teams.

[ccd494]

If the AE sees any value in sponsoring football (which I'm not sure they do), I think they would be immediately eligible for the AQ since they would have had 5 members together in the CAA.

America East Football:
1. Albany
2. Central Connecticut
3. Maine
4. Monmouth
5. Rhode Island
6. Robert Morris
7. New Hampshire
8. Stony Brook

HARD no. This would be the end of Maine football. Seriously, done.

It would be pretty easy for Maine's administration to look at this conference, which would likely be a one bid (maybe two) league, and say "why do we need to max out scholarships to play Central Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Monmouth?" And then if Maine isn't at the top of the conference, and the fans aren't coming out because Maine's a .500 program not playing the big name FCS schools they used to, well, what's a few more cuts? And then Maine sinks, inexorably down, just like every other successful, winning, men's program this school has ever had.

Maine baseball used to be a fixture in Omaha. And then the Northeast regional was eliminated, and the home games against Miami and Clemson went away, and then the bigger baseball schools in the conference left, and suddenly Maine didn't need to try so hard to be the best team in America East. And then Maine started losing a lot more conference games. And the fans stopped showing up. And the financial support dwindled because the fans weren't showing up to watch a losing program playing other no-name programs. And now Maine baseball struggles to come close to .500 and plays in front of friends and family.

Maine hockey won two national titles. And then Shawn Walsh, who built the program, died. And Maine made some more Frozen Four runs, but started to plateau. And the years' long wait list for season tickets turned into having tickets available at the door. And then Maine started missing the national tournament. And there were suddenly empty seats when there never were before. And then Maine started losing, a lot more than winning. And suddenly whole sections were empty, even for big games.

This is a fragile thing Maine has going, and it isn't even like this is North Dakota State winning titles and selling out every game. Maine is getting along by recruiting the mid-Atlantic, drawing fans by playing blue blood schools Maine has played for decades (UD, W&M, JMU, Richmond, Villanova, Maine, UNH, and URI have been in a conference together FOREVER), and winning the occasional playoff game. Moving to a glorified NEC is going to turn Maine football into Maine hockey or Maine baseball. And football is WAY too expensive to play in front of entirely empty stands.

[Dane96]

Simple - this assumes that the AE would be willing to add just 1 full member (CCSU) to replace Hartford and then sign up associate members for football. LIU is in NEC and wouldn't be able to pull their football program outside to be an affiliate. Plus, I doubt Stony Brook wants to have LIU in their league in any manner.

RMU and Monmouth are both in the same situation since leaving the NEC. Big South football is only a temporary solution and both programs would run at the chance to join a Northeast-based league.

Again, I doubt UNH and SBU would support this plan, as they would probably consider it a significant downgrade. Albany and Maine are probably on the fence, but would likely align with UNH and SBU. While URI and the new members would probably be ecstatic at this new opportunity.

I can tell you flat out, Albany is NOT on the fence. They are all in for football, which was one of the reasons Will Brown was not renewed for hoops. More on that at another time.

There is going to be a massive upheaval at all levels of college sports. What Woodward--shady as he is--stated is not all inaccurate: Less than 7% of DI schools break even. Covid is definitely going to move things up more quickly however, many colleges (even those with endowments) have been hit hard financially over the past few years. It makes absolutely zero sense for schools to send olympic sport teams off for away matches in some of these far flung leagues.

I think at least one, if not all three, will occur:

1. Power "Whatever" splits on football lines, similar to hockey. I also think traditional hoops leagues at the Power "whatever" level will remain, e.g. even the Big East.
2. Basketball at the mid and lower level may keep their conferences, if the schools think it is important
3. Olympic sports will become regional, much like the old ECAC (as an example). It will help cure cost issues at many schools.

I do think FCS football will have realignment shakeup however, I know without question, from those in the know, that all CAA schools are driven to remain at the highest level of play, including Albany, UNH, and Maine. In fact, Maine just received a massive influx of cash for Alfond. The only "scuttlebutt" I have heard is coming from JMU and Elon, who were unhappy with the Northern teams approach to football in Covid times. To me, JMU is an anomaly, and when they choose to make the move, nothing will get in their way. Until then, they will chirp and be happy winning CAA titles.

- - - Updated - - -


100%.

The President is trying to kill D1 sports and hired someone to confirm his position to sell it to the board. Now he is getting out ahead of it by making the asinine statement that Hartford loses $13 Million a year on an athletic department that doesn't event spend $13 Million a year.

I am sure he was pretty disappointed when their basketball team made the NCAA tournament earlier this month and energized the alumni around sports.

This post wins the thread; they 100% not lose 13 million; it's a total farce.

[Dane96]

No, this is not correct.

Their most recent financial disclosures to the Depart of Education listed their total athletic spending at $10 Million. That would be the maximum they could "lose" and that is assuming $0 in revenue. As you listed, they have revenue. It may be low but it isn't $0.

It should be noted that their expenses also includes "scholarships" as being an expense but scholarships at private schools is not real money. It is a discount in tuition that is provided to a student. The sticker price for the full cost of attendance is $60k. But that is not the actual cost to the school for the scholarship. The typical student at Hartford only pays $30k a year to attend. So the replacement value is half of what they report.

It is true that D1 sports costs the school money (100% it costs the school money) it is not true that they lose $13 Million as claimed by the President. That figure is not even being close to accurate. And considering the proposal is to move to D3 sports rather than eliminating sports, you will still have a lot of the same costs like facilities, staff, medical, insurance, etc. It will just be a lower amount. Travel will be reduced but not eliminated. Fewer hotel stays, sure, but you're not saving a ton of money when the NEC's footprint isn't much larger than a D3 conference could be.

Moreover, Woodward's statement that winning an NCAA tourney game is nice...but we don't receive funding; horse****. It may not be a lot...but they receive shares that the AE receives for each round (like every other league) the AE plays in a tourney game. These are called units, and each one awarded is a guarantee payment to the conference of a yearly payment for 6 years. For each unit a team picks up in 2021 equates to a nearly 1.7 million dollar payment to the league the team is in, over 6 years. The AE has traditionally given the schools an equal split however, it is my understanding that the team entering the tourney gets a touch more and the school left out of our conference tourney does not get a unit. In an 11 year time period spanning 2016-2027, each America East school will receive around 1.2 million dollars, or about $109k a year due to the league participating (and in one instance winning a game) in the NCAA tourney.

While not huge money, Woodward's "we don't get any money" statement is patently false. And of course, he forgets the free brand marketing, guarantee games, etc. that help fund the department.

DIII- you get zilch, nada, zero...but still have expenses. For example, Williams College spends approximately $5 million per season on its athletics programs. SUNY Cortland spends just shy of that, at 4.6 million. The revenue to offset that-- all in student fees.

So, dropping to DIII still has an expense, one that is completely borne by the student body who, in most instances, could care less about DIII sports.

This is a sham.

[Pinnum]

They would save money on scholarships in general.

That's the party line.

But that isn't how things really work.

Hartford gives merit scholarships. The majority of their institutional aid is not real money. They do have some endowed scholarships that provide real money to the school for students to use for their education but the majority of their institutional aid comes in the way of tuition discounts that do not have real money behind them.

https://www.hartford.edu/admission/scholarships/default.aspx


They have many classifications of scholarships, the talent scholarships are a small subset of their institutional aid. And the athletic portion of their talent scholarships are even smaller.

I have seen this happen many times. What is happening here is the President wants to change the makeup of the student body. They composition of the campus is not to his liking and he doesn't value the athletes on campus. The institutional aid will not be reduced if they eliminate D1 sports. This will not be a savings to the school despite what they say. What will actually happen will be that the same aid will be used but it will go to other students. The question is who the President wants that aid redirected to.

It is possible the President wants to increase the talent scholarships for the arts and taking the discounts from athletics is the way to accomplish that. It is also the President wants to increase the aid for high GPA/SAT scoring students who turn down admission to the school. The President may be looking to flood free education to higher achieving academic students in an effort to raise Hartford's ranking in US News.

This is all about changing the complexion of the school because the President doesn't value the athletes on campus. It is not true that there will be savings realized from the reduction of scholarships. Those athletic scholarship will be reallocated to other scholarship programs to attract a different type of student.

[Pinnum]

Moreover, Woodward's statement that winning an NCAA tourney game is nice...but we don't receive funding; horse****. It may not be a lot...but they receive shares that the AE receives for each round (like every other league) the AE plays in a tourney game. These are called units, and each one awarded is a guarantee payment to the conference of a yearly payment for 6 years. For each unit a team picks up in 2021 equates to a nearly 1.7 million dollar payment to the league the team is in, over 6 years. The AE has traditionally given the schools an equal split however, it is my understanding that the team entering the tourney gets a touch more and the school left out of our conference tourney does not get a unit. In an 11 year time period spanning 2016-2027, each America East school will receive around 1.2 million dollars, or about $109k a year due to the league participating (and in one instance winning a game) in the NCAA tourney.

While not huge money, Woodward's "we don't get any money" statement is patently false. And of course, he forgets the free brand marketing, guarantee games, etc. that help fund the department.

DIII- you get zilch, nada, zero...but still have expenses. For example, Williams College spends approximately $5 million per season on its athletics programs. SUNY Cortland spends just shy of that, at 4.6 million. The revenue to offset that-- all in student fees.

So, dropping to DIII still has an expense, one that is completely borne by the student body who, in most instances, could care less about DIII sports.

This is a sham.

His statement was accurate. He chose his words well.

He said "for making the NCAA tournament" they didn't see more money. And that is true. They get the same money from the NCAA unit if they make it of it Long Island makes it. The NEC shares the unit equally with the schools no matter who makes the tournament.

It is true that this money wouldn't be available if they left D1 but the President is selling the notion that D1 is so costly that this distribution is peanuts.

However, it would be an indictment of the President's leadership if that NCAA tournament did not yield any increase in alumni giving or alumni engagement. If they didn't get any benefit from the NCAA tournament bid this year it was because the President didn't want their athletic performance to show a financial gain.

[Dane96]

His statement was accurate. He chose his words well.

He said "for making the NCAA tournament" they didn't see more money. And that is true. They get the same money from the NCAA unit if they make it of it Long Island makes it. The NEC shares the unit equally with the schools no matter who makes the tournament.

It is true that this money wouldn't be available if they left D1 but the President is selling the notion that D1 is so costly that this distribution is peanuts.

However, it would be an indictment of the President's leadership if that NCAA tournament did not yield any increase in alumni giving or alumni engagement. If they didn't get any benefit from the NCAA tournament bid this year it was because the President didn't want their athletic performance to show a financial gain.

They are in the AE, not in the NEC...and that's not how the AE doles out their shares. They make more money...though it is not a huge amount more...it's definitely more.

[aceinthehole]

His statement was accurate. He chose his words well.

He said "for making the NCAA tournament" they didn't see more money. And that is true. They get the same money from the NCAA unit if they make it of it Long Island makes it. The NEC shares the unit equally with the schools no matter who makes the tournament.

It is true that this money wouldn't be available if they left D1 but the President is selling the notion that D1 is so costly that this distribution is peanuts.

However, it would be an indictment of the President's leadership if that NCAA tournament did not yield any increase in alumni giving or alumni engagement. If they didn't get any benefit from the NCAA tournament bid this year it was because the President didn't want their athletic performance to show a financial gain.

That's not 100% accurate. First, LIU is the NEC and Harford is the AE, so you're mixing 2 examples.

I can't speak for the America East revenue distribution process, but I'm quite certain in the NEC, the school that represents the league in the Tournament gets a small "bonus" amount. As an example, let's assume the NEC is distributing approx. $1M in NCAA revenue to the members. Each of the 10 NEC members schools would get $100k, but the team that that went to the NCAAs (this year it was Mount St. Mary's) would get an "extra" $10,000. Again, it is not a lot of money, but it is a financial reward for winning the league.

Also, while the NEC does distribute its NCAA revenues to its members schools like a dividend, I think that it does keep some money off the top for conference operations. Otherwise, league members are paying annual dues to the conference for operations, which is basically deducted from their NCAA revenue distribution.

[Pinnum]

That's not 100% accurate. First, LIU is the NEC and Harford is the AE, so you're mixing 2 examples.

I can't speak for the America East revenue distribution process, but I'm quite certain in the NEC, the school that represents the league in the Tournament gets a small "bonus" amount. As an example, let's assume the NEC is distributing approx. $1M in NCAA revenue to the members. Each of the 10 NEC members schools would get $100k, but the team that that went to the NCAAs (this year it was Mount St. Mary's) would get an "extra" $10,000. Again, it is not a lot of money, but it is a financial reward for winning the league.

Also, while the NEC does distribute its NCAA revenues to its members schools like a dividend, I think that it does keep some money off the top for conference operations. Otherwise, league members are paying annual dues to the conference for operations, which is basically deducted from their NCAA revenue distribution.

The NCAA asks each conference to equally distribute among the conference members. The A10 (and WCC for Gonzaga's shares) are the only conferences that I am aware of that do not distribute equally.

Are you talking about the travel party fund? If so, that would not be money for the school because it is only used to cover admin expenses. Some of the lower budget conferences give a small sum of money to fund the travel for the administration to go to the championship. The NCAA covers all the team travel but that doesn't include the others that schools like to send to the championship like the President and development officers to use the event as a fundraiser. That money only covers expenses at the event and isn't additional money to the school. If that's what you're talking about.

I made a mistake with Long Island and the NEC, I saw the CCSU logo while writing and made a mistake.

- - - Updated - - -


They are in the AE, not in the NEC...and that's not how the AE doles out their shares. They make more money...though it is not a huge amount more...it's definitely more.

See comment above.

[dunbar]

America East used to divide its revenue into ten shares, one for each school, with the tenth share going to whoever actually played in the NCAA Tournament (effectively double). With NJIT joining this year, I'm not sure how that has changed.

[Pinnum]

America East used to divide its revenue into ten shares, one for each school, with the tenth share going to whoever actually played in the NCAA Tournament (effectively double). With NJIT joining this year, I'm not sure how that has changed.

The units are paid out over six years. Did they pay out the additional unit share in the year the team made it or for the six years following their bid? If the former, then it would just be like a traveling party subsidy. If the latter, it is news to me.

[ngineer]

Yep, that's what makes this report so damaging. It appears to read exactly as the President wanted it to - make the case to support leadership moving Hartford down to D-III.

Hartford just doesn't have the history (D-I since 1985) nor the alumni or community support to push back much. With an enrollment of 5k, tuition near $50k, in a crowded higher education market (Quinnipiac, Sacred Heart, Fairfield, Trinity, Wesleyan, and even CCSU), I'm not sure they can (or should) survive at this level.

On a side note, this seems similar to the experience at Lafayette - any thoughts?

And back to FCS, I still think this is the best opportunity (though still a long shot) of the creation of America East football. I know UNH fans and others may not like the idea of a new affiliation and losing Delaware, JMU and W&M as conference mates, but with the budgetary impacts on athletics programs due to COVID and the economy of higher education, this might require further consideration.

I remember that well. The only thing that saved Laughyette football was enough alumni who raised holy hell at the thought, and.....Lehigh offering to assist their 'joined at the hip' rival with organizing and assistance on how to raise money through 'athletic partnership' structure. I remember the Board meeting in NYC that year and everyone waiting with bated breath on the outcome. As an aside, some of my partners were LC grads and one taught there as an adjunct. I got some LC stationary and crafted a spoof letter from the, then, Prez to LC 'alums'. I only sent it to one of my friends who was an ardent LC alum/fan. It said that the Board had decided to break new ground and rather than drop to D-III, they were going petition the NCAA to create a D-IV, wherein LC would be the only member. That way, the Leotards could do what they do best.....play with themselves! Needless to say, got quite a prompt and strident response when that fax (yes, back then we faxed jokes to each other) arrived! (:-)

[aceinthehole]

The NCAA asks each conference to equally distribute among the conference members. The A10 (and WCC for Gonzaga's shares) are the only conferences that I am aware of that do not distribute equally.

Are you talking about the travel party fund? If so, that would not be money for the school because it is only used to cover admin expenses. Some of the lower budget conferences give a small sum of money to fund the travel for the administration to go to the championship. The NCAA covers all the team travel but that doesn't include the others that schools like to send to the championship like the President and development officers to use the event as a fundraiser. That money only covers expenses at the event and isn't additional money to the school. If that's what you're talking about.

I made a mistake with Long Island and the NEC, I saw the CCSU logo while writing and made a mistake.

- - - Updated - - -



See comment above.

The way it works in the NEC is pretty straightforward. The men's and women's team that makes the NCAA Tourney actually "earns" the shares directly from the NCAA (payed out over 6 years); however per conference bylaws, they must pay an "assessment" to the league for the full amount from the NCAA minus $15k for each game played ($5k for NIT/WINT games).

So the NEC collects and banks nearly all NCAA funds earned by members for conference operations (plus conference tourney and any league TV revenues).

Then at the end of any fiscal year, if the league has a surplus after league expenses have been paid, all or a portion this "surplus" may be distributed to the member per a vote of the league presidents.

Basically, NEC members earn NCAA revenues but a defacto "grant of rights" forfeits the entire amount to the league minus a small "bonus." The league hold this amount for operations, then based on available funds, the league presidents may annually decide to dip into the amount and distribute the equally to members.

[Dane96]

The NCAA asks each conference to equally distribute among the conference members. The A10 (and WCC for Gonzaga's shares) are the only conferences that I am aware of that do not distribute equally.

Are you talking about the travel party fund? If so, that would not be money for the school because it is only used to cover admin expenses. Some of the lower budget conferences give a small sum of money to fund the travel for the administration to go to the championship. The NCAA covers all the team travel but that doesn't include the others that schools like to send to the championship like the President and development officers to use the event as a fundraiser. That money only covers expenses at the event and isn't additional money to the school. If that's what you're talking about.

I made a mistake with Long Island and the NEC, I saw the CCSU logo while writing and made a mistake.

- - - Updated - - -



See comment above.

Key word: Urge.

I know of others, besides the AE and the NEC (as described by ACE and me, plus the WCC that DO NOT share equally. The CAA was notorious for this under Yeager, and I am not sure if that has changed...but the impact would presumably continue due to the 6 year cycle (Yeager retired in 2016, if memory serves).

[Dane96]

America East used to divide its revenue into ten shares, one for each school, with the tenth share going to whoever actually played in the NCAA Tournament (effectively double). With NJIT joining this year, I'm not sure how that has changed.

My understanding, not much. The 10th team (that does not make the Conference tourney) does not get a full share...per my understanding.

[iBOsbu]

America East Football:
1. Albany
2. Central Connecticut
3. Maine
4. Monmouth
5. Rhode Island
6. Robert Morris
7. New Hampshire
8. Stony Brook

I don’t want to see AE football. Much prefer the current CAA football setup for Stony Brook. AEHoops and CAAFB working for us.

[dunbar]

The units are paid out over six years. Did they pay out the additional unit share in the year the team made it or for the six years following their bid? If the former, then it would just be like a traveling party subsidy. If the latter, it is news to me.

It's paid out over the same amount of time. It's not a traveling party subsidy because all expenses for the travel party (75 in a usual year, both men and women) are paid by the NCAA to begin with.

Just to get back on topic, nobody in AE wants to leave the group of teams they're with right now, whether that's in AE, CAA Football, or Hockey East. I see AE taking over CAA Football in the right situation, and all of those scenarios involve James Madison moving to an FBS league.

[UNHWildcat18]

As others have mentioned the CAA football schools UA SBU UNH UMAINE will not create their own football league unless the CAA truly imploded. Even if that happens they want nothing to do with football schools outside of (current CAA members, UMASS).

Also if that happened Northeastern, Delaware, Towson are at the top of the list of schools to add to the AE before they'd consider an NEC school.

[aceinthehole]

That's the party line.

But that isn't how things really work.

Hartford gives merit scholarships. The majority of their institutional aid is not real money. They do have some endowed scholarships that provide real money to the school for students to use for their education but the majority of their institutional aid comes in the way of tuition discounts that do not have real money behind them.

https://www.hartford.edu/admission/scholarships/default.aspx


They have many classifications of scholarships, the talent scholarships are a small subset of their institutional aid. And the athletic portion of their talent scholarships are even smaller.

I have seen this happen many times. What is happening here is the President wants to change the makeup of the student body. They composition of the campus is not to his liking and he doesn't value the athletes on campus. The institutional aid will not be reduced if they eliminate D1 sports. This will not be a savings to the school despite what they say. What will actually happen will be that the same aid will be used but it will go to other students. The question is who the President wants that aid redirected to.

It is possible the President wants to increase the talent scholarships for the arts and taking the discounts from athletics is the way to accomplish that. It is also the President wants to increase the aid for high GPA/SAT scoring students who turn down admission to the school. The President may be looking to flood free education to higher achieving academic students in an effort to raise Hartford's ranking in US News.

This is all about changing the complexion of the school because the President doesn't value the athletes on campus. It is not true that there will be savings realized from the reduction of scholarships. Those athletic scholarship will be reallocated to other scholarship programs to attract a different type of student.


FYI - Here's the real problem at Hartford and it has more to do with discounting tuition for all student athletes.

Harford's total "sticker price" is about $60k per year, but no one at that school really pays that amount. The average student pays just under $30k (54% discount) and the average student-athlete pays just over $5k (94% discount).

So you have about 4,800 students paying $144M in revenues and 200 student-athletes are only paying $1M in revenues. Just by getting student-athletes to pay at the same rates as students the university would raise an addition $5M.

Hartford is nearly operating as a "full scholarship" athletics program for all 200 students. Even though they offer just over 100 athletic scholarships, the rest of the student-athletes are getting institutional aid/subsidize at a far grater rate than regulars students.

So your assumption that non-scholly athletes were actually a revenue and enrollment boost is not accurate. All of Hartford's athletes (on NCAA "scholarships" or not) are paying almost nothing to attend. IMO - it is this model of athletic subsides compared to the academic side of the house which has caused the President and some board members to bring this issue to light.

[Pinnum]

FYI - Here's the real problem at Hartford and it has more to do with discounting tuition for all student athletes.

Harford's total "sticker price" is about $60k per year, but no one at that school really pays that amount. The average student pays just under $30k (54% discount) and the average student-athlete pays just over $5k (94% discount).

So you have about 4,800 students paying $144M in revenues and 200 student-athletes are only paying $1M in revenues. Just by getting student-athletes to pay at the same rates as students the university would raise an addition $5M.

Hartford is nearly operating as a "full scholarship" athletics program for all 200 students. Even though they offer just over 100 athletic scholarships, the rest of the student-athletes are getting institutional aid/subsidize at a far grater rate than regulars students.

So your assumption that non-scholly athletes were actually a revenue and enrollment boost is not accurate. All of Hartford's athletes (on NCAA "scholarships" or not) are paying almost nothing to attend. IMO - it is this model of athletic subsides compared to the academic side of the house which has caused the President and some board members to bring this issue to light.

Discounts are the norm at private schools. The whole model is that the sticker price is high to get the wealthier kids to subsidize the education of the lower (or middle) income and each student gets offered an individual rate based on how much the school wants the kid to attend the school. There is a lot of sophisticated calculations made to try to project a student's ability to pay when offering them a rate.

The discount rate is not an issue. It doesn't mean that the school is "losing money" on each student they admit because they have a discount rate. A better way to think about it is simply that the real cost of attendance is $30k per student per year. The sticker prices are meaningless at private schools. It is psychological. Many families will tell their child to take a $30k "Presidential Scholarship" to get to attend a $60k a year sticker price school rather than attend a $30k a year school that offers no scholarship. They feel like they are getting a better value when in reality no one is paying the full sticker price. (Though some schools have flipped and have stopped discounting tuition and just setting the sticker price at the lower rate and staying firm at that price point in an effort to attract more price conscious families.)

Your figure on the student-athletes is wrong. It can't possibly be correct. Student-athletes are paying way more than $5k on average. It isn't possible for the school to be giving the average student-athlete a 94% discount rate if non-scholarship athletes have an average 54% discount rate.. If they were fully-funded (they aren't) they would be giving 153.3 full-rides. They have 287 unique student-athletes. Using round numbers, you would have the non-scholarship athletes paying about 50% (roughly $30k) which would bring the total student athlete discount rate to 75% which means the average student-athlete would be providing $15k in revenue to the school.

And, again, this doesn't include replacement value. Institutional aid is not stackable for scholarship athletes. So a volleyball player (headcount sport) would be on a full-ride and would be listed as receiving roughly $60k in discount for attending the school. But that athlete wouldn't be paying $60k if they didn't have the scholarship. If the volleyball team went non-scholarship that roster spot would be replaced with someone like the walk-ons who get packages like that of the general population. So the 100% discount athlete would be replaced by a 54% discount athlete (your figure). This means that the cost of the athletic scholarship is not 100% of the sticker price for the school but is only 46%.

Your figure on the student-athlete cost of attendance is significantly off. It is not $1 Million but rather roughly $4.3 Million.

[bonarae]

Meanwhile, this is dead as Hartford is dropping outright to D-III.

[Laker]

Meanwhile, this is dead as Hartford is dropping outright to D-III.

Ironically, they made the men's basketball tournament for the first time this year. Who will the AE replace them with?

https://www.wtnh.com/sports/university-of-hartford-board-of-regents-vote-to-transition-from-division-i-to-division-iii-athletics-model/?utm_source=t.co&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral

[aceinthehole]

Certainly, the timing is awful as they finally reach the NCAA Tournament for the first time after 36 years. But America East isn't the same league Hartford joined back in 1985. Gone are Canisius, Niagara, Siena, Colgate, Northeastern, Boston U. They have been replaced by 3 SUNYs, UMBC, UMass Lowell, and NJIT. They just don't fit and have the smallest following in the league.

What is most concerning is how stagnant the university has been when compared to Quinnipiac and even Sacred Heart. QU and SHU joined D-I about 15 years after UHa, but they have grown both academically and athletically the last 20 years. Hartford has become the least attractive D-I program in the state and have been crowded out by others.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Certainly, the timing is awful as they finally reach the NCAA Tournament for the first time after 36 years. But America East isn't the same league Hartford joined back in 1985. Gone are Canisius, Niagara, Siena, Colgate, Northeastern, Boston U. They have been replaced by 3 SUNYs, UMBC, UMass Lowell, and NJIT. They just don't fit and have the smallest following in the league.

What is most concerning is how stagnant the university has been when compared to Quinnipiac and even Sacred Heart. QU and SHU joined D-I about 15 years after UHa, but they have grown both academically and athletically the last 20 years. Hartford has become the least attractive D-I program in the state and have been crowded out by others.

Very true. IMO the America East won't miss Hartford. IMO Merrimack makes the most sense to fill that spot. They have relationships with a number of existing members through Hockey East. And it seems that they've been fairly strong across the board athletics-wise since moving up from D-II.

Edit: I actually forgot CCSU is still in the NEC in all-sports. Central would be a great fit as well and are better geographically suited as far as being conveniently more towards the middle of the footprint.

[aceinthehole]

Very true. IMO the America East won't miss Hartford. IMO Merrimack makes the most sense to fill that spot. They have relationships with a number of existing members through Hockey East. And it seems that they've been fairly strong across the board athletics-wise since moving up from D-II.

Edit: I actually forgot CCSU is still in the NEC in all-sports. Central would be a great fit as well and are better geographically suited as far as being conveniently more towards the middle of the footprint.

Central Connecticut is the obvious replacement for Hartford (a regional, public university in the footprint), but we'll see if there is any interest from the AE side. CCSU has desired to join the ECAC-North back in the 1980s, but has never made any traction. We've been denied membership twice in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The previous membership wanted nothing to do with the "commuter college" from New Britain. Maybe now, with fresh blood - SUNYs, UMBC, Lowell, and NJIT - and CCSU's more established and successful athletic program, might be an opportunity. However, we need to make nice with the NEC to keep football there because there is no chance Central is afforded CAA Football membership in the near future.

DYK? Shortly after Hartford went D-I and joined the ECAC-North (later the North Atlantic Conference), they did seek membership in the MAAC and were declined.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Central Connecticut is the obvious replacement for Hartford (a regional, public university in the footprint), but we'll see if there is any interest from the AE side. CCSU has desired to join the ECAC-North back in the 1980s, but has never made any traction. We've been denied membership twice in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The previous membership wanted nothing to do with the "commuter college" from New Britain. Maybe now, with fresh blood - SUNYs, UMBC, Lowell, and NJIT - and CCSU's more established and successful athletic program, might be an opportunity. However, we need to make nice with the NEC to keep football there because there is no chance Central is afforded CAA Football membership in the near future.

DYK? Shortly after Hartford went D-I and joined the ECAC-North (later the North Atlantic Conference), they did seek membership in the MAAC and were declined.

So this is actually pretty interesting. I didn't even think of the NEC football thing being an issue simply because of the fact that there has been a precedent of several America East members in the past who have played NEC football. Albany and Stony Brook both had that arrangement. However, an all-sports NEC member LEAVING for the A-East might be viewed a little differently. And there are no current A-East members still playing NEC football. Monmouth was shown the door in football once they left for the MAAC.

I'd be all for Central Connecticut playing as a Patriot League football affiliate, just sayin'.

[ccd494]

I'd bet the replacement is nobody.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'd bet the replacement is nobody.

In a ten-team league there's no major sense of urgency in finding a replacement. But the general trend in low-major conferences is skewing towards double-digit membership. Reason being it's easier to fill a D-I basketball schedule with more conference games.

Come to think of it, it would make a lot of sense at this point for Northeastern to go back to the America East. In the CAA, their shortest road trip is Hofstra.

[UNHWildcat18]

Very true. IMO the America East won't miss Hartford. IMO Merrimack makes the most sense to fill that spot. They have relationships with a number of existing members through Hockey East. And it seems that they've been fairly strong across the board athletics-wise since moving up from D-II.

Edit: I actually forgot CCSU is still in the NEC in all-sports. Central would be a great fit as well and are better geographically suited as far as being conveniently more towards the middle of the footprint.

AE doesn't want either of them.

[iBOsbu]

I just posted this at SBU board and might as well just copy paste here:

With Hartford gone, AEC is now a conference of public universities.. all with high research activity (R1 or R2 classification). It would be great if they add another public to make it even. But unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable candidate meeting the requirements of 1) high-research, 2) state university, and 3) in AEC footprint.

Some candidates:

--Northeastern and Drexel: R1; but private. location wise either would be a good addition. Makes sense for them too.. reducing travel cost. But they would probably not take a u-turn back to AEC.
--Delaware: R1, public... but has FBS aspiration. similar to above, they would probably not take a u-turn back to AEC
--Towson and CCSU: lack research activity which I think current AEC presidents value (Last two additions, UMLowell-R2 and NJIT-R1, are both research oriented State Uni).
--Hofstra: blah.. no

AEC was content with 9 members for a long time. I think its best to wait. There is no rush. CAA will implode soon as JMU is itching to go FBS (and may be even Delaware).

[The Boogie Down]

I'd be all for Central Connecticut playing as a Patriot League football affiliate, just sayin'.

I'm thinking the results would be in the neighborhood of 99% to 1 if put to a vote of Patsy alums.

[Pinnum]

Some of you might be interesting in this...

Analysis and Suggested Revisions to the University of Hartford Athletics Feasibility Study

https://www.scribd.com/document/507291106/Analysis-and-Suggested-Revisions-to-Hartford-Feasibility-Study-Andy-Schwarz-1

[NY Crusader 2010]

I just posted this at SBU board and might as well just copy paste here:

With Hartford gone, AEC is now a conference of public universities.. all with high research activity (R1 or R2 classification). It would be great if they add another public to make it even. But unfortunately, I can't think of a suitable candidate meeting the requirements of 1) high-research, 2) state university, and 3) in AEC footprint.

Some candidates:

--Northeastern and Drexel: R1; but private. location wise either would be a good addition. Makes sense for them too.. reducing travel cost. But they would probably not take a u-turn back to AEC.
--Delaware: R1, public... but has FBS aspiration. similar to above, they would probably not take a u-turn back to AEC
--Towson and CCSU: lack research activity which I think current AEC presidents value (Last two additions, UMLowell-R2 and NJIT-R1, are both research oriented State Uni).
--Hofstra: blah.. no

AEC was content with 9 members for a long time. I think its best to wait. There is no rush. CAA will implode soon as JMU is itching to go FBS (and may be even Delaware).

The only CAA school on that list that MIGHT consider going back to the America East is Northeastern.

CAA is not going to implode if/when JMU leaves. That move has been about 10 years coming, and it still might not even happen. Delaware isn't going anywhere.

[aceinthehole]

I'm thinking the results would be in the neighborhood of 99% to 1 if put to a vote of Patsy alums.

That high? :)

[Anthony215]

The only CAA school on that list that MIGHT consider going back to the America East is Northeastern.

CAA is not going to implode if/when JMU leaves. That move has been about 10 years coming, and it still might not even happen. Delaware isn't going anywhere.

If Rocco brings the Hens back to the top of FCS rankings in football and BB continues to improve I think the administration will explore finally looking at a FBS conference. If the AAC came calling the Hens would run to sign the contract. Now for CUSA they'd have to sweeten the pot as the only schools in that conference within driving distance is ODU and that's still a 4 hour bus ride.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If Rocco brings the Hens back to the top of FCS rankings in football and BB continues to improve I think the administration will explore finally looking at a FBS conference. If the AAC came calling the Hens would run to sign the contract. Now for CUSA they'd have to sweeten the pot as the only schools in that conference within driving distance is ODU and that's still a 4 hour bus ride.

There are about 30 teams that would get invited to the AAC ahead of Delaware. C-USA has turned into a hodgepodge conference of a bunch of schools from El Paso to Norfolk that have nothing in common other than the fact that they cling to the illusion of playing big-time football.

Actually, if they were to move up, the MAC would make the most sense. Very stable league over time -- I think a school like Delaware would value that.

[WestCoastAggie]

What if the AEast actually plucks away Delaware State, Howard, or Morgan State from the MEAC, and invite CCSU from the NEC? Could they bring back AEast football then?


With re-alignment a reality across the college athletics landscape, things can and are changing quickly. The source tells us that there could be mutual interest between a few current MEAC programs and the American East, which just lost Hartford as it moved to DIII.

https://hbcugameday.com/2021/05/11/inside-attempt-to-rebuild-the-meac/

[NY Crusader 2010]

What if the AEast actually plucks away Delaware State, Howard, or Morgan State from the MEAC, and invite CCSU from the NEC? Could they bring back AEast football then?



https://hbcugameday.com/2021/05/11/inside-attempt-to-rebuild-the-meac/

The issue is that there's no appetite from the football-playing A East schools to form an America East football conference. I don't think anyone at UNH, Maine, Albany or Stony Brook is thinking, "man the CAA is an awful place to be stuck for FCS football. Let's add a couple of bottom-of-the-barrel MEAC teams and form our own weaker conference with just as much travel."

[aceinthehole]

The issue is that there's no appetite from the football-playing A East schools to form an America East football conference. I don't think anyone at UNH, Maine, Albany or Stony Brook is thinking, "man the CAA is an awful place to be stuck for FCS football. Let's add a couple of bottom-of-the-barrel MEAC teams and form our own weaker conference with just as much travel."

Agreed. The AE schools are very comfortable and prefer the arraignment they have with CAA Football. There is no impetus or need for the AE to sponsor football, although it could be done if, for example, the NCAA governance structure put the AE at a disadvantage in other sports, or if the CAA Football was to break up (both are very unlikely).

Also, I know that CCSU is very happy with all sports in the NEC and is not actively seeking any membership changes despite my own interest in doing so. I don't think any NEC members are seeking other options either.

But the uncertainty of the MEAC along some former NEC programs looking for stability and cost/travel savings, does keep football realignment in the region something to watch. Not likely to happen, but if CCSU was offered an invite to America East and CAA Football was off the table, another option would be for the 3 former NEC schools to join the MEAC as football-only members; however, this would only be possible if the MEAC maintained AQ status and didn't send their champion to play the SWAC in a bowl game.

MEAC Football?
Central Connecticut (AE)
Delaware State (MEAC)
Howard (MEAC)
Monmouth (MAAC)
Morgan State (MEAC)
Norfolk State (MEAC)
N.C. Central (MEAC)
Robert Morris (Horizon)
S.C. State (MEAC)

[NY Crusader 2010]

I actually think a break-up of the Patriot League could catalyze A-East football faster than a CAA break-up (which isn't happening no matter how much a couple posters opine for it).

In such a scenario you could have A-East Football with the following:

UNH
Maine
URI**
Albany
Stony Brook
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham**
Monmouth** (maybe they'd leave the MAAC in all sports but idk)

** - denotes affiliate members

CCSU and/or Merrimack would be in there if they left NEC for A-E as all-sports members

In that scenario, I'd have Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh going to the CAA and Georgetown to the NEC as a football affiliate.

[Pinnum]

I actually think a break-up of the Patriot League could catalyze A-East football faster than a CAA break-up (which isn't happening no matter how much a couple posters opine for it).

In such a scenario you could have A-East Football with the following:

UNH
Maine
URI**
Albany
Stony Brook
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham**
Monmouth** (maybe they'd leave the MAAC in all sports but idk)

** - denotes affiliate members

CCSU and/or Merrimack would be in there if they left NEC for A-E as all-sports members

In that scenario, I'd have Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh going to the CAA and Georgetown to the NEC as a football affiliate.


Why would the Patriot League ever break up?

[DFW HOYA]

Why would the Patriot League ever break up?

The scenario is that one or more members grows frustrated with the budget to playoff ratio (six PL teams are among the 20 highest budgets in FCS and the PL is now firmly a one bid league) and takes an offer elsewhere.

The PL requires a minimum of five full membership schools to sponsor a sport. The number of full membership schools sponsoring FCS football? Five. Put another way, Fordham leaving doesn't change the calculus, but if Holy Cross or Colgate left, PL football ceases operations, short of an all-sports expansion or a moment of epiphany from Boston U.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The scenario is that one or more members grows frustrated with the budget to playoff ratio (six PL teams are among the 20 highest budgets in FCS and the PL is now firmly a one bid league) and takes an offer elsewhere.

The PL requires a minimum of five full membership schools to sponsor a sport. The number of full membership schools sponsoring FCS football? Five. Put another way, Fordham leaving doesn't change the calculus, but if Holy Cross or Colgate left, PL football ceases operations, short of an all-sports expansion or a moment of epiphany from Boston U.

Or Army and Navy decide to drop football down to FCS :)

[Dane96]

Leave it to the PL guys to make a thread about one topic into...you guessed it...a PL topic.

I can say without question, the only school even on the radar of the AE right now is...NO ONE. That said, the proposed football conference with the AE teams / PL / Monmouth scenario does not move the needle for SBU, UNH, Albany, or Maine. Again, unless those four teams are kicked out of the CAA, the only thing changing their collective minds to seek leaving the CAA is an actual CAA implosion that sees all of the following schools leaving the CAA football conference (in addition to JMU): Villanova, Delaware, and Towson. There are schools that can backstop a JMU, ELON, or W&M/Richmond departure. It's only if this league goes very "Southern" with replacing teams north of Baltimore that this changes.

As a pure football replacement, Monmouth is WELL ahead of every single PL school in the eyes of the four AE football teams. And that comes from credible folks at Albany, Stony Brook, and UNH. I am sure Maine feels the same. If Monmouth can somehow weasel 4000 temporary seats for Kessler (football season only) then it's a no-brainer. They have been flat out told by the CAA (just like Albany was told the same) that they need an 8000 seat stadium.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Dane -- good points on Monmouth. Not just football, I think Monmouth could end up being a great all-sports candidate for the CAA when the time comes. Slap some bleachers on the away side of Kessler and they'll be closer to that 8K. Maybe some grassy-knoll type seating in the EZ that "seats 2000".

[Dane96]

Dane -- good points on Monmouth. Not just football, I think Monmouth could end up being a great all-sports candidate for the CAA when the time comes. Slap some bleachers on the away side of Kessler and they'll be closer to that 8K. Maybe some grassy-knoll type seating in the EZ that "seats 2000".

I tend to agree. They tick a lot of boxes, including a beautiful arena.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I tend to agree. They tick a lot of boxes, including a beautiful arena.

And a presence in the state of New Jersey. For the Northeast, NJ is relatively talent-rich when it comes to recruiting. Villanova has feasted off of the Garden State for years.

[DFW HOYA]

And a presence in the state of New Jersey. For the Northeast, NJ is relatively talent-rich when it comes to recruiting. Villanova has feasted off of the Garden State for years.

Maybe, but next to impossible without scholarships.

[BigBlueMU]

Monmouth would be a great addition to the CAA for all sports. IMO the largest hurdle for MU is not funding, but the town of West Long Branch. The OFBC was originally designed to be aprox 8000 seats but WLB forced them down to 4200ish. Notice there are no lights over Kessler? Yup, West Long Branch. MU would find the funds for an additional 4000 seat stadium in no time, but expect a 10 year fight with the city if they tried.


Leave it to the PL guys to make a thread about one topic into...you guessed it...a PL topic.

I can say without question, the only school even on the radar of the AE right now is...NO ONE. That said, the proposed football conference with the AE teams / PL / Monmouth scenario does not move the needle for SBU, UNH, Albany, or Maine. Again, unless those four teams are kicked out of the CAA, the only thing changing their collective minds to seek leaving the CAA is an actual CAA implosion that sees all of the following schools leaving the CAA football conference (in addition to JMU): Villanova, Delaware, and Towson. There are schools that can backstop a JMU, ELON, or W&M/Richmond departure. It's only if this league goes very "Southern" with replacing teams north of Baltimore that this changes.

As a pure football replacement, Monmouth is WELL ahead of every single PL school in the eyes of the four AE football teams. And that comes from credible folks at Albany, Stony Brook, and UNH. I am sure Maine feels the same. If Monmouth can somehow weasel 4000 temporary seats for Kessler (football season only) then it's a no-brainer. They have been flat out told by the CAA (just like Albany was told the same) that they need an 8000 seat stadium.

[Dane96]

Monmouth would be a great addition to the CAA for all sports. IMO the largest hurdle for MU is not funding, but the town of West Long Branch. The OFBC was originally designed to be aprox 8000 seats but WLB forced them down to 4200ish. Notice there are no lights over Kessler? Yup, West Long Branch. MU would find the funds for an additional 4000 seat stadium in no time, but expect a 10 year fight with the city if they tried.

Yep...100% agree. That's why the deal I would cut with WLB would be temporary bleachers and no events can surpass the 4200 fixed seats other than the 5-6 football games per year. The cost would probably be about a million a year for the temp bleachers but it would be worth it in an all sport CAA. Personally, I loved our NEC Football rivalry with Monmouth.

[WestCoastAggie]

Leave it to the PL guys to make a thread about one topic into...you guessed it...a PL topic.

I can say without question, the only school even on the radar of the AE right now is...NO ONE. That said, the proposed football conference with the AE teams / PL / Monmouth scenario does not move the needle for SBU, UNH, Albany, or Maine. Again, unless those four teams are kicked out of the CAA, the only thing changing their collective minds to seek leaving the CAA is an actual CAA implosion that sees all of the following schools leaving the CAA football conference (in addition to JMU): Villanova, Delaware, and Towson. There are schools that can backstop a JMU, ELON, or W&M/Richmond departure. It's only if this league goes very "Southern" with replacing teams north of Baltimore that this changes.

As a pure football replacement, Monmouth is WELL ahead of every single PL school in the eyes of the four AE football teams. And that comes from credible folks at Albany, Stony Brook, and UNH. I am sure Maine feels the same. If Monmouth can somehow weasel 4000 temporary seats for Kessler (football season only) then it's a no-brainer. They have been flat out told by the CAA (just like Albany was told the same) that they need an 8000 seat stadium.

There's going to be some shuffling going on soon, resulting in multiple east coast conferences with 6-8 football playing teams by 2026 relatively close in distance.

[ccd494]

What if the AEast actually plucks away Delaware State, Howard, or Morgan State from the MEAC, and invite CCSU from the NEC? Could they bring back AEast football then?



https://hbcugameday.com/2021/05/11/inside-attempt-to-rebuild-the-meac/

No one in the AE would want that to happen.

Also, if the source can't get the name of the conference right, you can disregard them as illegitimate.

[dgtw]

I was looking up something else and saw that Hartford was a men’s golf affiliate in the Big Sky. With them dropping to D3 and Southern Utah moving to the WAC, that leaves them with five in men’s golf.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UNHWildcat18]

No one in the AE would want that to happen.

Also, if the source can't get the name of the conference right, you can disregard them as illegitimate.

Yeah I don't see how people are failing to see that the AE and AE football schools only want to be with the "biggest" fish in the small pond.