Chicago St to Pioneer?

[Friday I'm in Love]

Non-scholarship football in 2022.
https://collegead.com/newsfeed/chicago-state-university-11/

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Chicago State can barely afford to keep the lights on. How are they going to fund football?

[Laker]

It wont let me into it but why would they start football? They just got kicked out of the WAC, are an orphan as far as a conference goes, and have money and enrollment problems. The hot mess that they had at the meeting where they dropped baseball was tragic comedy.

I'd bet the farm against it- where would the money come from?

[NDB]

Cares act?

[Friday I'm in Love]

The hot mess that they had at the meeting where they dropped baseball was tragic comedy.

Was that the Zoom meeting where it was hacked by trolls and anytime a BOT tried to speak, they were interrupted by baby noises, animal noises, or vulgarity? I’d pay to see that video again.

[Anthony215]

This makes little to no sense. Only thing I can think of is they're thinking by adding football they'll be able to get more male students to apply and enroll but that's still only 80-120 more students and the cost associated with traveling for football as well as equipment, game day expenses and no guarantee games against FBS schools due to the no scholarships means little revenue would be arriving.

[OhioHen]

Chicago State can barely afford to keep the lights on. How are they going to fund football?

When the school closes up shop permanently, the administration can say "Hey, we tried. Even a football team couldn't save us."

[ST_Lawson]

https://i.imgur.com/eBaba1Z.gif

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Apparently there was discussion in 2017 regarding starting a non-scholarship football program. That among other things, if I read things correctly, led to a lawsuit and more financial issues that ultimately caused the president to resign in the cover of darkness; paid $600k to disappear.

I honestly feel bad for Chicago State. The school should be so much more than it is. It's in a location that could have a significant impact on many levels and Division 1 athletics gives it a platform to expand its brand beyond Chicagoland.

I'm just glad the link wasn't a virus. I was skeptical given the 1 post nature but the link name did seem harmless and semi legit. So far so good...

[ST_Lawson]

Wait, I figured it out...

They add non-scholarship football...at the DIII level...as they move all their other sports to DIII.

That's the only way I can come up with to make that work.

[Friday I'm in Love]

I'm just glad the link wasn't a virus. I was skeptical given the 1 post nature but the link name did seem harmless and semi legit. So far so good...

CollegeAD is a very legit website -- many who work in college athletics subscribe to it. Though at $15/month, it's probably not worth it unless this is what you do for a living.

[Friday I'm in Love]

Wait, I figured it out...

They add non-scholarship football...at the DIII level...as they move all their other sports to DIII.

That's the only way I can come up with to make that work.

The problem with D3 is there's no public schools in IA/IL/IN. There's public schools in WI but the WIAC would never take them.

The unsaid motive behind football is likely to stay above a specific enrollment benchmark needed for funding. If they're falling within 100 of that number, football gives them a boost.

[ST_Lawson]

The problem with D3 is there's no public schools in IA/IL/IN. There's public schools in WI but the WIAC would never take them.

The unsaid motive behind football is likely to stay above a specific enrollment benchmark needed for funding. If they're falling within 100 of that number, football gives them a boost.

Well, yeah...I was just trying to make it work with the "non-scholarship football" thing. Really though, they need to just "bite the bullet", drop to NAIA and join the CCAC (Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicagoland_Collegiate_Athletic_Conference).

[TexasTerror]

WAC MB Thread (https://csnbbs.com/thread-919467.html) on Chicago State's FloSports agreement and subsequent discussion of football.

[ST_Lawson]

Ok, so if they end up doing this, they're thinking Pioneer League for football, which I kinda understand...non-scholarship, travel wouldn't actually be too bad (much better than if they were trying to do football in the new WAC). Under 5-hour trips to Butler, Dayton, Drake, and Valparaiso...maybe drive to Morehead State (under 6 1/2 hours).

I realize this is a football forum, but what about their other sports...stay independent...Horizon League...Summit League?

Summit League - already kicked them out once before, and that was before their recent enrollment drops. With the addition of St. Thomas (all sports) and Northern Colorado (baseball only), I don't know that the Summit League is that desperate to add CSU back in, especially now that they don't have baseball.

Horizon League - more closely fits the general "profile" of mostly public schools (except Detroit Mercy and Robert Morris) in larger urban areas, but they recently added IUPUI and Fort Wayne and are at 12 members, plus...again...CSU's history of academic and enrollment problems. Also, if they're looking at "media markets", they've already got a foothold in Chicago with UIC.

Independent - is that even possible to make work with all the non-football sports? I don't see anyone currently listed as independent (other than football) who plays DI sports.

[Friday I'm in Love]

Ok, so if they end up doing this, they're thinking Pioneer League for football, which I kinda understand...non-scholarship, travel wouldn't actually be too bad (much better than if they were trying to do football in the new WAC). Under 5-hour trips to Butler, Dayton, Drake, and Valparaiso...maybe drive to Morehead State (under 6 1/2 hours).

I realize this is a football forum, but what about their other sports...stay independent...Horizon League...Summit League?

Summit League - already kicked them out once before, and that was before their recent enrollment drops. With the addition of St. Thomas (all sports) and Northern Colorado (baseball only), I don't know that the Summit League is that desperate to add CSU back in, especially now that they don't have baseball.

Horizon League - more closely fits the general "profile" of mostly public schools (except Detroit Mercy and Robert Morris) in larger urban areas, but they recently added IUPUI and Fort Wayne and are at 12 members, plus...again...CSU's history of academic and enrollment problems. Also, if they're looking at "media markets", they've already got a foothold in Chicago with UIC.

Independent - is that even possible to make work with all the non-football sports? I don't see anyone currently listed as independent (other than football) who plays DI sports.

Realistically, their only option might be as a liferaft for the MEAC much the same way they were for the WAC -- invited only to keep the league's numbers above the autobid minimum.

Summit would add Augustana or a D2 Minnesota school before Chicago St.

Horizon would add Bellarmine or USI before Chicago St.

Chicago St's ability to find a new D1 home is dependent on a league getting blown-up and needing a warm body for survival.

[TheKingpin28]

Realistically, their only option might be as a liferaft for the MEAC much the same way they were for the WAC -- invited only to keep the league's numbers above the autobid minimum.

Summit would add Augustana or a D2 Minnesota school before Chicago St.

Horizon would add Bellarmine or USI before Chicago St.

Chicago St's ability to find a new D1 home is dependent on a league getting blown-up and needing a warm body for survival.

Summit would add Northern Colorado before Augustana and any other D2 school, as UNC is a travel partner for Denver. St Thomas was a wise move to get the MSP market.

[ST_Lawson]

Realistically, their only option might be as a liferaft for the MEAC much the same way they were for the WAC -- invited only to keep the league's numbers above the autobid minimum.

...

Chicago St's ability to find a new D1 home is dependent on a league getting blown-up and needing a warm body for survival.

Ah, hadn't thought about the MEAC. Travel would suck, but not any worse than the WAC was for them. MEAC needs teams, although they REALLY need baseball teams (they currently have 4), and CSU doesn't have one now.

Talk about bad timing though...they just added soccer (which the MEAC doesn't sponsor) because the WAC required them to add a sport...and now they're out of the WAC. They just dropped baseball because of fallout from COVID, but now any conferences that might consider them are really wanting a school with baseball. Do they now reverse course, drop soccer (men's and women's) and add baseball and softball (both of which the MEAC sponsors).

Chicago State is not a HBCU, but is listed as a "US Department of Education Accredited Postsecondary Minority Inititution" (https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/edlite-minorityinst-list-tab.html). The MEAC has traditionally been all HBCU schools, but they might be willing to allow CSU to join for the sake of the conference's survival (plus they have a few non-HBCU schools as affiliate members).

I still think their best bet is to drop to a lower division or NAIA, but if they refuse to do that, I guess the MEAC is probably the option that makes the most sense.

[dgtw]

I saw the story on the WAC board. That guy is a big CSU fan and a regular poster there. He seems to be a good guy so I trust what he said. That being said...

1. I find it odd the only source for this is a paywall story. I signed up for their free content but this you have to pay for. I have seen nothing on Chicago State’s end about this. Maybe part of the deal says to keep it quiet. Granted, this isn’t about P5 expansion but ESPN or someone hasn’t put up a story about a potential new college program?

2. The Pioneer League would be a good deal for them. Several members are fairly close. The Pioneer is up to eleven members so they really don’t need anyone. I also don’t know if they would take a startup at a school with a bunch of financial and academic problems. But in the current environment it might not look good for a bunch of snooty white schools to reject an inner city black college.

3. Affording the startup costs is a big hurdle. Buying the equipment and hiring a coach isn’t cheap. I don’t know where they would play. I suppose a high school field would suffice for now. Building a small stadium would be costly as well.

4. Their biggest concern is getting into a new conference. The Summit will be at ten (with six baseball) once St. Thomas joins. I doubt they’d invite CSU just to be nice as it puts them at an odd number and reduces everyones basketball payout for a program that makes dumpster fires look good. The MVC and Horizon are both at even numbers. I don’t see any of them offering CSU even if they suddenly lost a member.

5. The MEAC is a possibility. But it has the same travel issues they had in the WAC. Not sponsoring baseball doesn’t help the WAC. I guess the MEAC baseball teams will need to find affiliates but finding a home for all four won’t be easy. They are also at eight (with six football) so Chicago State doesn’t add much besides a long road trip. If anyone else leaves the MEAC could be in trouble but CSU doesn’t add much without baseball or scholarship football.

6. Swapping baseball for soccer was meant to save money. I guess they could latch on as a soccer affiliate somewhere.

I do wish them well but I am skeptical about their future.


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[Laker]

I still think their best bet is to drop to a lower division or NAIA

This makes the most sense. But isn't it odd how people who should be smart- the ones who run our universities- have the least common sense?

[DFW HOYA]

A healthy dose of skepticism should be standard for any story about Chicago State. Including...

1. If there was an agreement with FloSports, why has FloSports not issued a release? Or for that matter, why hasn't the university?

2. What is the audience for OTT coverage of the Cougars? CSU averaged 323 a game in men's basketball for 2019-20.

3. Chicago State leaves the WAC on June 30, 2022. Depending on which conference they land in (if they do), that league may have its own TV deal.

4. Chicago State has a total of 170 student athletes: 85 men, 95 women, and apparently all get scholarship support. Unless the school thinks non-scholarship athletes don't count against Title IX, how does adding another 90 men upset that apple cart?

5. Chicago State has a total of five head coaches and six assistant coaches for all its men's sports. How many coaches will they need for football?

6. The total spending on athletics at CSU (2019-20) is $7.9 million. How small a football budget can survive in the Pioneer?

7. Where are their sources of football revenue? They appear to have a field on the campus but without seating or facilities of any kind. (Photo (https://www.gocsucougars.com/images/2013/6/18/track-main-image.jpg)). Gately Park is two miles away but that comes with a cost, too.

8. Assuming 2022 is their plan, how do you even fill a schedule one year out, much less recruit?

9. Finally, CSU tuition is $11,366 a year. How many will pay their way to play non-scholarship football?

[OhioHen]

This makes the most sense. But isn't it odd how people who should be smart- the ones who run our universities- have the least common sense?

Some of the most brilliant people I know don't have the sense to come in out of the rain.

[dgtw]

I don’t see the market for online viewing for a basketball program that draws 323 people in the nation’s third largest city.


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[ST_Lawson]

I don’t see the market for online viewing for a basketball program that draws 323 people in the nation’s third largest city.


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Nobody does except maybe 5 people in charge of things at Chicago State.

[caribbeanhen]

Some of the most brilliant people I know don't have the sense to come in out of the rain.

maybe it was just a shower

[Laker]

Some of the most brilliant people I know don't have the sense to come in out of the rain.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4WT0GZjQaE81l1vxM0RVPkk2NLWFOF CTDxUhD39VwdfZHMchwTZ2FHYaF5x7t_7PE0bI&usqp=CAU

[OhioHen]

maybe it was just a shower

Some of those same people could have used a shower!

[dgtw]

So it has been almost two weeks since this was announced and there are no further details or big public announcement? Nothing other than an article you have to pay to read and leaked details on a message board?

Seems really strange.


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[WestCoastAggie]

I saw the story on the WAC board. That guy is a big CSU fan and a regular poster there. He seems to be a good guy so I trust what he said. That being said...

1. I find it odd the only source for this is a paywall story. I signed up for their free content but this you have to pay for. I have seen nothing on Chicago State’s end about this. Maybe part of the deal says to keep it quiet. Granted, this isn’t about P5 expansion but ESPN or someone hasn’t put up a story about a potential new college program?

2. The Pioneer League would be a good deal for them. Several members are fairly close. The Pioneer is up to eleven members so they really don’t need anyone. I also don’t know if they would take a startup at a school with a bunch of financial and academic problems. But in the current environment it might not look good for a bunch of snooty white schools to reject an inner city black college.

3. Affording the startup costs is a big hurdle. Buying the equipment and hiring a coach isn’t cheap. I don’t know where they would play. I suppose a high school field would suffice for now. Building a small stadium would be costly as well.

4. Their biggest concern is getting into a new conference. The Summit will be at ten (with six baseball) once St. Thomas joins. I doubt they’d invite CSU just to be nice as it puts them at an odd number and reduces everyones basketball payout for a program that makes dumpster fires look good. The MVC and Horizon are both at even numbers. I don’t see any of them offering CSU even if they suddenly lost a member.

5. The MEAC is a possibility. But it has the same travel issues they had in the WAC. Not sponsoring baseball doesn’t help the WAC. I guess the MEAC baseball teams will need to find affiliates but finding a home for all four won’t be easy. They are also at eight (with six football) so Chicago State doesn’t add much besides a long road trip. If anyone else leaves the MEAC could be in trouble but CSU doesn’t add much without baseball or scholarship football.

6. Swapping baseball for soccer was meant to save money. I guess they could latch on as a soccer affiliate somewhere.

I do wish them well but I am skeptical about their future.


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They did try to apply for membership in the MEAC back in the 2000s. The MEAC turned them down due to travel. However, desperate times... Besides, I'm sure the MEAC won't care if they don't offer any scholarships in football. xlolx

[Pinnum]

A few years ago CSU's Board of Trustees minutes spoke about looking into adding football possibly in the PFL. Nothing came of it. I don't recall if it was the current administration of the previous that was looking into it.

[mvfcfan]

I read a while back on NM State's board that Chicago State is not getting kicked out of the WAC and that it was a mutual agreement. I also read there that they are planning on dropping out of D1 entirely. If they have non-scholly football it will likely be D3.

[Pinnum]

I read a while back on NM State's board that Chicago State is not getting kicked out of the WAC and that it was a mutual agreement.

This is my understanding as well. Chicago State made the decision on their own and the WAC was very supportive of their decision.



I also read there that they are planning on dropping out of D1 entirely. If they have non-scholly football it will likely be D3.

This is not my understanding (though things could change).

My understanding is the thought process was more along the lines of:

"We are spending all of our money flying out west for competitions and for what? All so we can have access to an auto bid to the NCAA in basketball? We have been no where near getting an auto-bid. Why don't we go independent, schedule some mid-west D1 mid-major teams who want to recruit Chicago, maybe play some D2 games local D2 teams, do our usual buy games? Then we won't be spending so much money on travel that does nothing to benefit the program. With all that savings we can actually put some more money into the athletic department and try to get basketball to 10 wins a season. If we can get 10 wins a season in basketball it would completely change the program and gives a path to a conference like the Horizon League."

[DFW HOYA]

I also read there that they are planning on dropping out of D1 entirely. If they have non-scholly football it will likely be D3.

Not if they want to play other sports in Div. I. (And FWIUW, there is also non-scholarship football in Div. II, though mostly in the Northeast.)

But it begs a difficult question--Chicago State is a commuter school for non-traditional students. Do they need an athletic program to support its mission? The same question was answered at Northeastern Illinois University.

[ST_Lawson]

Not if they want to play other sports in Div. I. (And FWIUW, there is also non-scholarship football in Div. II, though mostly in the Northeast.)

But it begs a difficult question--Chicago State is a commuter school for non-traditional students. Do they need an athletic program to support its mission? The same question was answered at Northeastern Illinois University.

If they don't end up dropping athletics or dropping to NAIA or something, then they need to see about merging with someone like Governors State University. They're about a half hour south of Chicago State in the south suburbs and currently have athletics in NAIA (CCAC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicagoland_Collegiate_Athletic_Conference)). Gov State has an enrollment of ~4,650 and Chi State is at ~2,600.

[dgtw]

Still not seeing any updates or official announcements about this. On a related note, CSU just fired their basketball coach.


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[VandalBasher]

https://www.hbcusports.com/forums/threads/chicago-state-university-athletics.141899/

Some discussion from a couple of months ago.

Personally, I think this is a great move to reinvigorate a dead student and alumni base. The school has nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

[katss07]

https://www.scribd.com/document/520677865/Chicago-State-FloSports-Contract

This has been making the rounds on the internet over the past few days. It’s in Flo’s contract with CSU that they’ll broadcast five football games annually. Chicago State fans I’ve seen discussing it seem to think that non-scholarship football has been in the plans for a while.

I don’t know too much about Chicago State, but from what I’ve heard their athletic department and school in general are in a bit of a tough spot financially, although they’re seemingly committed to making it work in D1. Football would be a great outlet to reinvigorate the alumni base and school pride. A low risk high reward type of move. Not to mention, the PFL has 5 schools within a bus trip of Chicago (Drake, UST, Valpo, Butler, Dayton).

[DFW HOYA]

For a deeper dive into Chicago State, check this report:

https://www.scribd.com/document/520677907/Chicago-State-2020-FRS-Report-1

[WestCoastAggie]

https://www.scribd.com/document/520677865/Chicago-State-FloSports-Contract

This has been making the rounds on the internet over the past few days. It’s in Flo’s contract with CSU that they’ll broadcast five football games annually. Chicago State fans I’ve seen discussing it seem to think that non-scholarship football has been in the plans for a while.

I don’t know too much about Chicago State, but from what I’ve heard their athletic department and school in general are in a bit of a tough spot financially, although they’re seemingly committed to making it work in D1. Football would be a great outlet to reinvigorate the alumni base and school pride. A low risk high reward type of move. Not to mention, the PFL has 5 schools within a bus trip of Chicago (Drake, UST, Valpo, Butler, Dayton).

My gut says they're still trying to swing for a MEAC invite.

[Laker]

For a deeper dive into Chicago State, check this report:

https://www.scribd.com/document/520677907/Chicago-State-2020-FRS-Report-1

Since then they have dropped baseball so they aren't even at the minimum level for D1 sports. I just don't know how this school stays at the D1 level.

[DFW HOYA]

I wasn't sure which was a worse number in the link above:

Men's Basketball ticket sales: $4,787
Men's Basketball third party income (media, shoe deals, etc.): $1,700
Men's Basketball donations (aka booster club): $0

[katss07]

My gut says they're still trying to swing for a MEAC invite.
Could they play non-scholly football in the MEAC? Is that a possibility? Or maybe play well below the scholarship threshold while still offering some? I just don’t know how they’d make football work aside from playing in the Pioneer. Does CSU have the travel budget for the MEAC?

Aside from the budget issues, they’d be a great fit.

[DFW HOYA]

Could they play non-scholly football in the MEAC? Is that a possibility? Or maybe play well below the scholarship threshold while still offering some? I just don’t know how they’d make football work aside from playing in the Pioneer. Does CSU have the travel budget for the MEAC?

CSU would get crushed in the MEAC, especially with a start-up program. Playing non-scholarship football in a scholarship conference is a very high mountain to climb.

The Pioneer is the only viable course if CSU wanted to pursue this given the distance to/from MEAC schools versus bus rides to St. Thomas, Drake, Valpo, Butler, Morehead, and Dayton. And, to state the obvious, the MEAC has bigger problems right now that adding Chicago State won't fix.

[dgtw]

Since then they have dropped baseball so they aren't even at the minimum level for D1 sports. I just don't know how this school stays at the D1 level.

They are supposedly starting men’s soccer.

Not sponsoring baseball doesn’t help the MEAC as they are down to four baseball programs. For that matter, the MEAC doesn’t sponsor soccer for either gender, so the CSU soccer department is screwed. And they have women’s golf, which the MEAC does not.

They do have men’s golf, but that only gives the MEAC four teams.

Sounds like a net loss for the MEAC if they add CSU. A crappy basketball program that adds a long plane flight for everyone. It also puts them at nine members, which is a scheduling headache.


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[dgtw]

Anything new on this? We are in the middle of March and they don’t have a conference for the fall.

They had their best basketball in years, including a win over NMSU. But trying to make it as an independent will kill any momentum. And I can’t find anything about this football team they are supposed to start.


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[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the Chicago State to the PFL makes sense in the sense that they've been talking about doing something like this for more than a decade. CSU and Detroit Mercy both at one time were seriously exploring it years ago. But that was a long time ago and it's a different landscape now.

I got to believe that they are looking at something like Horizon membership and doing non-scholly FB in the PFL (to boost male enrollment, like how it's done at Dayton, Butler, etc.) Though not ideal, they could form a semi-rivalry with Detriot Mercy in a bunch of sports (and maybe non-scholly football, too).

But all of that is aspirational. CSU has loads of problems as an institution that athletics alone cannot solve. And the NCAA's upcoming re architecture of the divisions is likely to do them no favors - that's the one thing everyone seems to agree on.

[WestCoastAggie]

I think the Chicago State to the PFL makes sense in the sense that they've been talking about doing something like this for more than a decade. CSU and Detroit Mercy both at one time were seriously exploring it years ago. But that was a long time ago and it's a different landscape now.

I got to believe that they are looking at something like Horizon membership and doing non-scholly FB in the PFL (to boost male enrollment, like how it's done at Dayton, Butler, etc.) Though not ideal, they could form a semi-rivalry with Detriot Mercy in a bunch of sports (and maybe non-scholly football, too).

But all of that is aspirational. CSU has loads of problems as an institution that athletics alone cannot solve. And the NCAA's upcoming re architecture of the divisions is likely to do them no favors - that's the one thing everyone seems to agree on.

Unfortunately for Chicago State, no Division 1 conference feels they're a "good fit".

[katss07]

CollegeAD now reporting that Chicago State, who is looking for a conference and apparently has the support of MEAC presidents, needs to give the league “express or written football commitment” before they join. Apparently the vote to be admitted has been delayed due to this.

If Chicago State knew they were going to start football, why didn’t they just tell the WAC? Maybe they’d have stayed! The conference is in need of members just as bad.

[DFW HOYA]

Chicago State has 1,086 full time students and an athletic budget of $6.3 million.

The least funded MEAC football program is priced at $2.5 million, and that's with its own stadium and practice facilities, neither of which CSU has.

[katss07]

Chicago State has 1,086 full time students and an athletic budget of $6.3 million.

The least funded MEAC football program is priced at $2.5 million, and that's with its own stadium and practice facilities, neither of which CSU has.


Sounds like they’re going to need to find a way to make it work or risk being turned away by every D1 conference.

[DFW HOYA]

Sounds like they’re going to need to find a way to make it work or risk being turned away by every D1 conference.

1,086 students would be a 4A high school in the UIL.

[OhioHen]

1,086 students would be a 4A high school in the UIL.
1,086 students would be significantly less than a graduating class at Carmel HS in Indiana.

[ST_Lawson]

1,086 students would be significantly less than a graduating class at Carmel HS in Indiana.

Or a number of HS's just in the Chicago suburbs.