Article opining on W&M to PL

[Go Green]

Slow news day (sports wise, at least).

Missed this article from a few days ago. Don't think anyone else posted it here yet? If so, apologies.

https://richmond.com/sports/college/william-and-mary/w-m-is-charter-caa-member-but-interim-ad-hears-patriot-league-conversation-quite-a/article_04ba6e61-9214-533a-8aaf-a0afe6326302.html

[Baron Sardonicus]

Outside the Pioneer league, has any FCS team moved to a significantly weaker football conference? Having trouble seeing why W&M would switch. "Congruent" academic standards and $4.99 will get Patriot fans some beef jerky.

[The Cats]

Outside the Pioneer league, has any FCS team moved to a significantly weaker football conference? Having trouble seeing why W&M would switch. "Congruent" academic standards and $4.99 will get Patriot fans some beef jerky.

VMI moved from the SoCon to the Big South in 2003, at the time, the BS was significantly weaker (still is) conference.

[whoanellie]

Presbyterian College in SC is or has moved to the Pioneer Conference from the Big South. Campbell sort of switched with them.

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Presbyterian College in SC is or has moved to the Pioneer Conference from the Big South. Campbell sort of switched with them.

[Anthony215]

That's a steep move down, essentially for football you're moving down from the #2 conference in the country to probably the #10 conference as the only leagues rated below the Patriot League would be the Pioneer, MEAC and NEC. All other conferences would most years rank over the PL.

[Mocs123]

I don't know much about W&M but it could be the right move for them even if it's to a weaker conference. It's not like they are really in play for the CAA Championship (or a playoff spot) most years anyways. The PL might let them be more competitive and to be fair, probably an easier road to the playoffs. The real reason would be if they felt like it would give them rivalries that would get their fan base more energized, though it sounds like they already have some rivals in the CAA.

[Fordham]

Covid is making them cut programs and also reassess if they want to de-emphasize the program or at least get out of the rat race of trying to keep up with current peer/rivals like JMU. Ain't easy being an AD in this environment.

My biggest question is if this is part of a plan the followed the last time they made a run at making this move where they decided to start heavily scheduling PL schools on their OOC schedule? Or is it truly just that Covid knocked them sideways and they're doing what they can to keep fielding a football team while dealing with huge holes in their budget?

How do you feel if you're one of those major donors that funded the football facilities upgrades? Ouch. Not really what you thought you were investing in


"W&M has made major brick-and-mortar investments in football, starting with the $11 million Laycock Center, a football-support building that opened in 2008. In 2016, a $28 million renovation of Zable Stadium was completed. Those projects were funded mostly through private donations."

[Go Green]

I don't know much about W&M but it could be the right move for them even if it's to a weaker conference. .

I know that it's apples and oranges, but this has occurred in basketball. Indeed, several PL teams have arguably "stepped down" a conference to challenge for PL hoops crown.

[NY Crusader 2010]

By "several teams", you mean American?

William & Mary will join the PL when Minnesota goes Republican.

[UAalum72]

Rhode Island "almost" moved football from the CAA to the NEC, but then changed their mind. I think it put them down a few scholarships for a while

[NY Crusader 2010]

Western Kentucky moved from the Gateway to the Sun Belt. At the time, that was a step down in competition.

[Anthony215]

I don't know much about W&M but it could be the right move for them even if it's to a weaker conference. It's not like they are really in play for the CAA Championship (or a playoff spot) most years anyways. The PL might let them be more competitive and to be fair, probably an easier road to the playoffs. The real reason would be if they felt like it would give them rivalries that would get their fan base more energized, though it sounds like they already have some rivals in the CAA.

The issue would be creating a rivalry in the PL they'd be matched with Georgetown as regional rivals a 2.5 hour ride. The rest would have to be filled via being competitive as there are 3 PA schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell), 2 NY schools (Fordham & Colgate), and 1 MA school (Holy Cross).

[NY Crusader 2010]

There is zero reason for William & Mary to join the Patriot League.

[Go Green]

By "several teams", you mean American?



Navy, like American, was also in the CAA.

Other current PL basketball teams came from the MAAC and America East. I don't think many would argue that the PL was a step up for them. At best, a lateral move...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

There is zero reason for William & Mary to join the Patriot League.

I agree!

I still want to know how serious the UNH-PL overtures were 5-6 years ago. That seemed to have credible legs.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I agree!

I still want to know how serious the UNH-PL overtures were 5-6 years ago. That seemed to have credible legs.

It was 10 years ago and they were credible, only because of what appeared to be a crumbling CAA. Remember that Northeastern and Hofstra dropped football in quick succession following the 2009 season. Rhode Island had just committed to joining the NEC. UMASS was getting ready to transition to FBS. So the entire old CAA NORTH Division pretty much collapsed. Had the CAA not quickly recovered, bringing in Albany and SBU, as well as luring back URI, it's possible this change could've taken place. The CAA would've then pivoted to becoming a more Southern league, possibly picking up schools like Coastal Carolina and Furman, in addition to Elon who did join at that time.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Navy, like American, was also in the CAA.

Other current PL basketball teams came from the MAAC and America East. I don't think many would argue that the PL was a step up for them. At best, a lateral move...

Loyola (MAAC) and BU (A-East) to the PL are lateral moves in Men's Basketball but significant upgrades in other sports. BU won the PL hoops title this past March (too bad no one will remember) and Loyola has not been competitive since joining in 2012.

Navy did join the PL out of the CAA but both service academies were founding members in 1991. Army and Holy Cross joined the newfound Patriot League out of the MAAC. Colgate came from the North Atlantic Conference which eventually became A-East. Not sure about Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette => they were all D-II in football before joining the Colonial League but I think they were D-I in basketball.

[OhioHen]

Not sure about Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette => they were all D-II in football before joining the Colonial League but I think they were D-I in basketball.

Those three schools were all in the old East Coast Conference with Delaware and Drexel (among others).

[Go Green]

Loyola (MAAC) and BU (A-East) to the PL are lateral moves in Men's Basketball but significant upgrades in other sports. BU won the PL hoops title this past March (too bad no one will remember) and Loyola has not been competitive since joining in 2012.

Loyola also reportedly made the move to increase its academic profile. I don't remember that being cited as much for BU.

I can't remember how good the MAAC was back in the 1980s and early 1990s. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that it was noticeably better than the PL's early days (if for no other reason that the PL was not giving scholarships then).

That said, Navy *was* a good team back in the mid-to-late 1980s. Of course, they had David Robinson. :)

[Sader87]

Holy Cross coulda been in the Big East y'know xdrunkyx

[DFW HOYA]

There is zero reason for William & Mary to join the Patriot League.

There is zero reason for anyone to join the Patriot League. Unless there is change.

[Go Green]

There is zero reason for anyone to join the Patriot League. Unless there is change.

Well, PL membership could lead to an easier path to the playoffs. Florida State enjoyed a Holy Roman Empire in the ACC under Bobby Bowden because he thought (correctly) it would be easier to walk through the ACC rather than the SEC.

In theory, W&M (or Villanova) could choose that route.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Well, PL membership could lead to an easier path to the playoffs.

The easiest path to the playoffs would be be to join the PFL, then offer football scholarships to recruits. Pro tip: try not to let people know you're offering scholarships.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Does the Patriot League really want to expand its football lineup? If so, they should merge with the Pioneer Football League. Following the example set by Kentucky Fried Chicken (now known as KFC), the resulting entity could be called the PL. At 18 members, it wouldn't be much bigger than today's Big Ten.

Think athletic aid would be a problem? Well...see my previous post.

No academic index for the new league.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Well, PL membership could lead to an easier path to the playoffs. Florida State enjoyed a Holy Roman Empire in the ACC under Bobby Bowden because he thought (correctly) it would be easier to walk through the ACC rather than the SEC.

In theory, W&M (or Villanova) could choose that route.

If either joined the PL in football, they'd quickly become one of us with AI and lack of non-medical red-shirting. William & Mary would also go back to being a basketball wasteland.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Loyola also reportedly made the move to increase its academic profile. I don't remember that being cited as much for BU.

I can't remember how good the MAAC was back in the 1980s and early 1990s. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that it was noticeably better than the PL's early days (if for no other reason that the PL was not giving scholarships then).

That said, Navy *was* a good team back in the mid-to-late 1980s. Of course, they had David Robinson. :)

I wasn't old enough to follow sports but I'm sure that the MAAC was a clear-cut better league than the inaugural PL. I forgot Fordham also moved from the MAAC to become a founding PL member in all sports. They left in 1995 over scholarship issue and went to the A-10 of course.

[DFW HOYA]

I wasn't old enough to follow sports but I'm sure that the MAAC was a clear-cut better league than the inaugural PL. I forgot Fordham also moved from the MAAC to become a founding PL member in all sports. They left in 1995 over scholarship issue and went to the A-10 of course.

The MAAC peaked in 1990 with Lionel Simmons (LaSalle) being the national player of the year. It wasn't the A-10 but the MAAC was #3 of the Eastern conferences. Now, it's not even in the top 5.

[ngineer]

William & Mary was an original charter member of the, then named, Colonial League, along with Davidson. However, when the alums found out they'd have to give up scholarships because the conference, now PL, was pure 'grant in aid', they revolted and the College pulled out. PL has been seeking an 8th member for years and years. Richmond was very close to joining a few years ago, again, before PL went scholarship. Both UR and W&M would give Georgetown a southern rival and both have good academic profiles, and that is very important to the Presidents, who make the ultimate decision. I'd like to see it. Trip to Williamsburg every other fall would be great.

[NY Crusader 2010]

William & Mary was an original charter member of the, then named, Colonial League, along with Davidson. However, when the alums found out they'd have to give up scholarships because the conference, now PL, was pure 'grant in aid', they revolted and the College pulled out. PL has been seeking an 8th member for years and years. Richmond was very close to joining a few years ago, again, before PL went scholarship. Both UR and W&M would give Georgetown a southern rival and both have good academic profiles, and that is very important to the Presidents, who make the ultimate decision. I'd like to see it. Trip to Williamsburg every other fall would be great.

Richmond considered going non-scholarship in football around 2003/2004. Spider alum unsurprisingly revolted. 4 years later they were I-AA National Champs.

[DFW HOYA]

There is zero reason for anyone to join the Patriot League. Unless there is change.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2020/11/reconsidering-patriot-league-part-1.html

[Go Green]

Looks like the PL is going forward with basketball season. Ivy--we're on the clock!

[Laker]

Looks like the PL is going forward with basketball season. Ivy--we're on the clock!

January 1 start? Back to back games at the same place like college hockey teams do? Or just dump the season?

[Sitting Bull]

W&M left for two other reasons beside scholarships: no playoffs and the strict requirements on OOC games tied to the Ivy League.

[Go Green]

W&M left for two other reasons beside scholarships: no playoffs and the strict requirements on OOC games tied to the Ivy League.


They wouldn't let you guys play Virginia? Seems odd.

(Although I wouldn't have recommended that you do so without scholarships...).

[Sitting Bull]

We could play Virginia - but not also Richmond, VMI and JMU in the same year.

It wasn’t a good fit. W&M takes more fans to Charlottesville than Dartmouth pulls in for a home game.

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[Sader87]

Holy Cross spanked W&M in '86 and '87 when we still cared about football....just sayin'

[Sitting Bull]

Only because your coach was a W&M grad and those two years were the Golden years of HC football post 1970.

Since 87, W&M and HC have moved in different directions and I think the direction W&M chose was the preferred direction. Winning seasons, playoffs, notable football alums, refurbished stadium, frequent sellouts, wins over FBS teams, etc. just sayin.

But enjoy your 40 year old memories.

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[Go Green]

We could play Virginia - but not also Richmond, VMI and JMU in the same year.

It wasn’t a good fit. W&M takes more fans to Charlottesville than Dartmouth pulls in for a home game.

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I have no reason to doubt you on the above.

But surely W&M against teams like Penn, Princeton, and Yale would have drawn better than against Dartmouth? At least in the time period we're discussing?

[Sitting Bull]

It’s obviously in jest though I still recall the time period when W&M was initially moving in the PL direction back in the early 80s. We added Ivy opponents, usually one per year, and they generated good interest, more than games against PL teams. Harvard sold out twice in Williamsburg in the 80s and we played Yale in Norfolk before 23,000 fans (the annual Oyster Bowl).

Dartmouth though was the first Ivy we signed a series in the early 80s, went 6 years. The first game in Williamsburg was also a near sellout if not fully sold out. Kemp was the Dartmouth QB. There was a lot of buzz about the game. I remember the write up mentioned near 2000 Dartmouth fans came for this first game, so many alums in the DC area and their first game south of Philly in decades. All 6 games were very close and competitive.

In terms of the thread question and to our Sader friend, I think there is no better example of W&Ms correct decision back in the 80s to back off the Patriot than comparing the state today of W&M and HC programs. Both schools were among the cream of 1AA as it was created, two of the most prestigious football programs relegated downward at the time. W&M opted to pursue a high profile conference alignment, eventually CAA, while HC stayed parked in the PL. Looking at the last 35+ years, there is no rationale for W&M to go back unless the ultimate decision came down to a choice of PL or no football at all.

I like the PL myself and if that became W&Ms home, it would be ok in my book. I just don’t think the logic to move is there.

[Go Green]

In the A-Sun expansion thread, a poster suggested that the MEAC may not survive a round of re-alignment. He opined that Howard could land in the PL.

Howard never seemed like a potential target for PL expansion. Is that because everyone assumed that Howard would never voluntarily leave the MEAC? I'm sure Georgetown would appreciate the company....

[ngineer]

Howard would be a nice addition to the PL and give G'town a close rival. They have a good academic footprint, which the Presidents' Council of the PL takes seriously.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'd have no issue with Howard in the PL. Cross-city rival for Georgetown in football (they can take Catholic of the schedule!!!!) as well as for American in basketball.

Some have opined that the AI may be an issue. Howard is obviously a very reputable academic school and attracts many top students. However, relative to the Patriot League, someone previously pointed out that their football and basketball recruits in aggregate are considerably below the rest of the student body as far as average test scores are concerned.

Maybe this is an issue, maybe it's not. I don't like the AI anyway. But I'd be a fan of Howard coming on board.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Hey, it's been a while. Good to be back.

I saw this article when it was published-it read like a Richmond sportswriter trolling W&M in the midst of the AD/Olympic sport debacle. It still does.

Nonetheless, if W&M wants to eliminate costs, dumping the non-medical red-shirt load it now carries would have to be attractive. Of course they could do that and stay in the CAA.

Howard would be a great addition. Their SAT range appears to be nearly identical to Loyola, if the AI survives the move away from testing. Of course, they would have to change their mascot...

[UAalum72]

Of course, they would have to change their mascot...As far as that goes, do Boston and Bucknell fans dispute who's the "real" BU?(not that there are many non-hockey Boston U fans)

[Pards Rule]

William & Mary was an original charter member of the, then named, Colonial League, along with Davidson. However, when the alums found out they'd have to give up scholarships because the conference, now PL, was pure 'grant in aid', they revolted and the College pulled out. PL has been seeking an 8th member for years and years. Richmond was very close to joining a few years ago, again, before PL went scholarship. Both UR and W&M would give Georgetown a southern rival and both have good academic profiles, and that is very important to the Presidents, who make the ultimate decision. I'd like to see it. Trip to Williamsburg every other fall would be great.
I forgot about Tribe being charter member. They pulled out before a game played! Anyways Im adamantly opposed to increasing PL for ANY more teams. I think we are fine the way we are and I like the 5 OOC games! And I dont want it to be a stepping stone to the playoffs for a frustrated CAA member. No reason to expand it!

[Sader87]

I forgot about Tribe being charter member. They pulled out before a game played! Anyways Im adamantly opposed to increasing PL for ANY more teams. I think we are fine the way we are and I like the 5 OOC games! And I dont want it to be a stepping stone to the playoffs for a frustrated CAA member. No reason to expand it!

Agreed....I think the only school for PL expansion in football that really makes any sense (institutionally, geographically etc) is Villanova...both Richmond and W&M are too far south above and beyond other factors.

[Go Green]

I'd have no issue with Howard in the PL. Cross-city rival for Georgetown in football (they can take Catholic of the schedule!!!!) as well as for American in basketball.



AU can't be impressed with this.

Division II-member Queens University (NC) beats Howard 85-71 (therepublic.com) (http://www.therepublic.com/2020/11/27/bkc-queens-university-howard/)

[NY Crusader 2010]

AU can't be impressed with this.

Division II-member Queens University (NC) beats Howard 85-71 (therepublic.com) (http://www.therepublic.com/2020/11/27/bkc-queens-university-howard/)

To be fair, it looks like Queens lost to A-10 member George Mason by only a point. So they obviously are pretty good. And most MEAC teams wouldn't sniff the jockstrap of the D-II Top 25 most years.

Looks like the 5-star recruit Howard brought in this season played and they still got worked by a D-II.