2020 Patriot League Offseason Thread

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Will things get any better in 2020? After Colgate carried the national respect banner in 2018 no one was able to do it in 2019. The bottom line is PL teams have to win games. Going three straight years with just one team finishing with a winning mark (2 times with a modest 7 wins) is one of the more embarrassing lowlights I can recall for a conference in D1 athletics.

Holy Cross appears to be killing it (relatively speaking) on the recruiting trail. Not shocking kids wants to play for an energetic young coach with a proven track record of success. Everyone else seems to be hoping for a couple of difference makers to emerge and the old "coach 'em strategy" to get the most out of the rest. Still not seeing an improved depth of talent with scholarships.

Going into next year I have to think Holy Cross and Colgate are fairly close in terms of being favorites. HC has a shaky QB situation and will need a new OC to figure out an overall below average "O". If Breneman can finally stay healthy the Raiders should be right there. While Hunt can't sustain momentum his teams are never on the mat for long.

After those two it feels like a mess. Bucknell is probably the most likely to take a considerable step forward. Quality PL coaches have a history of making waves in year two. The Bison's schedule lightens up compared to 2019 which will help. Fordham continues to have quality individual talent but they can't win games. Not sure if that changes in 2020. Lehigh lacks a proven QB, OC and OL. They also lost their best defender and head into 2020 with very little positive mojo after a trainwreck finish to 2019. Lafayette hasn't had a winning record in OVER a decade and still has Garrett as head coach. Georgetown will be a scrappy team that fights and claws on their to another losing record. Sgarlata is clueless when it comes to offense.

[Son of Eli]

Looking forward to the Yale-Holy Cross game. A match-up of the Ivy League and Patriot League champions is a great way to start Yale’s season. Fitton Field is also a great place to watch a game. I’ll be there.

[Sader87]

Yale game will actually will be HC's 3rd after at BC and Lehigh at Fitton.

HC still looking for an 11th game at the moment...open dates on 9/26 and Halloween. Hopefully rectified soon.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yale game will actually will be HC's 3rd after at BC and Lehigh at Fitton.

HC still looking for an 11th game at the moment...open dates on 9/26 and Halloween. Hopefully rectified soon.

I'm interested to see who Holy Cross adds. Right now their OOC consists of Boston College, Harvard, Yale an Brown. All things considered a reasonable slate if indeed HC is able to take another step forward in 2020. If I were HC I'd try to schedule a quality FCS opponent from one of the better leagues.

I do think 8 or 9 wins is within reach depending on how good HC is and how good Harvard and Yale end up being. The BC game could be competitive.

[Sader87]

From your lips... the BC game hasn't been competitive since 1981.

CCSU dropped us due to NEC expansion last year....be interesting who we can get this late in the game.

[TheValleyRaider]

Per FBSchedules, the Patriot OOC looks like this:

Bucknell
at Army
Villanova
at Princeton
Cornell

That's pretty rough, even for an improving squad. Hard to see better than 1-3, though I guess Princeton might be plausible if they take a big enough step back. Also, no Marist?

Colgate
at Western Michigan
at William & Mary
at Syracuse
New Hampshire
Cornell

I like FBS games, I don't like two FBS games. Best case is 3-2, but right now I'm skeptical they'll beat both UNH and W&M (guessing that both will be better than in 2019). Losing both is certainly possible.

Fordham
Stony Brook
Bryant
at Hawaii
at Monmouth
at Wagner

I see two categories here: games they could win (Bryant/Wagner) and games they should lose (SB, Hawaii, Monmouth). If the Rams aren't beating Bryant or Wagner, are they really improving at all?

Georgetown
at Harvard
Columbia
Dayton

Obviously more to come for the Hoyas, but probably 1-2 with this. Dayton would be an interesting win if they pull it off.

Holy Cross
at Boston College
Yale
at Harvard
Brown

HC getting to 2-2 here would be nice. Have they closed the gap enough to beat one or both of Harvard/Yale? If they go 0-2 against the Ivies, like with Fordham, that's not really progress.

Lafayette
at Sacred Heart
at Navy
William & Mary
at Penn
Harvard

Even if Lafayette is better (amazing what a QB can do), they're underdogs in all 5 games.

Lehigh
at Villanova
Columbia
LIU
at Yale
at Saint Francis

Hard for me to think of the Hawks as bad, but other than LIU, I don't see any games here where they are clear favorites. Columbia and Saint Francis are possibilities, and beating Yale would suggest Lehigh is "back" (so to speak).

Best-case right now, I think we're looking at 14-17 (math might be off, I was a liberal arts major)

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown will be a scrappy team that fights and claws on their to another losing record. Sgarlata is clueless when it comes to offense.

Sometimes it's better to say "I don't really see enough of Georgetown to judge but they'll probably finish last."

You suggest Sgarlata is "clueless on offense"? He doesn't coach offense! That's the job of Rob Spence, the former Clemson OC who coached alongside Dabo Swinney in the 2000's. What's changed between then and now? Talent! It's not a secret among PL teams that Georgetown's non-scholarship recruiting is significantly behind everyone else with impact positions, especially the ground game. A 5-9, 180 lb. scatback might get you 100 yards in game 1 but by October he's banged up or out entirely. Georgetown hasn't had a serious option at RB in over 15 years and the other teams know it, but that's what's left when the other six PL teams get done with their recruiting.

Georgetown's leading rusher averaged 40 yards a game. Couple this with long-standing recruiting weakness at OL and Spence can do little but hope his QB has enough time to find a five or ten yard pass play against five in the box. That's not a formula for end of season success.



Georgetown
at Harvard
Columbia
Dayton

Dayton was supposed to be a return game from 2014 but it has not been confirmed. A lot of schools have passed or backed out of games at GU in recent years (St. Francis, Howard, Dartmouth) so I wouldn't be shocked if Dayton follows suit. FWIW, Davidson will not return a game from 2019.

Let's be transparent: Georgetown is not a scheduling draw.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Sometimes it's better to say "I don't really see enough of Georgetown to judge but they'll probably finish last."

You suggest Sgarlata is "clueless on offense"? He doesn't coach offense! That's the job of Rob Spence, the former Clemson OC who coached alongside Dabo Swinney in the 2000's. What's changed between then and now? Talent! It's not a secret among PL teams that Georgetown's non-scholarship recruiting is significantly behind everyone else with impact positions, especially the ground game. A 5-9, 180 lb. scatback might get you 100 yards in game 1 but by October he's banged up or out entirely. Georgetown hasn't had a serious option at RB in over 15 years and the other teams know it, but that's what's left when the other six PL teams get done with their recruiting.

Georgetown's leading rusher averaged 40 yards a game. Couple this with long-standing recruiting weakness at OL and Spence can do little but hope his QB has enough time to find a five or ten yard pass play against five in the box. That's not a formula for end of season success.

Sgarlata is the head coach! He's responsible for the OC and the positional coaches on offense! He can't put the coaches and players to succeed in even a competent manner!

Please just stop with the Georgetown can't recruit nonsense! It's their choice!!! The PL top to bottom is terrible! There's currently very little different between the PFL and PL heading into 2020. I'd argue non-scholarship San Diego is currently better than the six scholarship programs.

Georgetown is an inept program. It really should be disbanded imo and the money put towards things that will actually make a difference. It's amazing that such smart kids will sign up to play for a football program run like a low level junior college when they can get a great education and better football experience elsewhere.

[aceinthehole]

From your lips... the BC game hasn't been competitive since 1981.

CCSU dropped us due to NEC expansion last year....be interesting who we can get this late in the game.

Yep, we had to replace HC with games vs Merrimack and LIU :(

I was staring to enjoy the 6-game NEC slate that allowed us to schedule at least 5 non-conference games per year.

Now we have 8 league games, plus 1 FBS opponent, allowing just 2 FCS non-con games per year.

In 2020 CCSU will play Toledo (FBS), Valpo (PFL), and Columbia (Ivy). Wish we dropped Valpo instead of HC.

[aceinthehole]

Wouldn’t be surprised to see HC host Merrimack as the replacement for CCSU.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown is an inept program. It really should be disbanded imo and the money put towards things that will actually make a difference. It's amazing that such smart kids will sign up to play for a football program run like a low level junior college when they can get a great education and better football experience elsewhere.


For someone like you who has posted over 21,000 times in 17 years, your comment above is one of the most ill-tempered and ill-informed comments I have ever seen among the Patriot League posting community.


Georetown is not an inept program. It has never been cited by NCAA probation, has never fielded even a single ineligible player, and does not see recruits flunking out because they cannot stay in school. Its 97% graduation rate is the highest in the conference, its academic index is by far the highest in the conference. Its early admissions average SAT now exceeds 1500--try filling an offensive line with those numbers and without scholarships to do so. But because the school chooses not to spend $4.2 million in aid for just one of 29 teams, it doesn't win consistently. We all know that. From 2000-19, Georgetown was 94th of 120 I-AA schools in winning percentage, behind five PL schools but still ahead of Lafayette, Columbia, and Cornell, none of which is being compared to a junior college.


The Patriot League knew exactly what it was getting when it admitted Georgetown University as an associate member in 2000. It took 10 years to build a basketball practice facility, 20 years to finish the football facility this year (really) and the rowing team's boathouse is at 32 years and counting. There is no Jack Bourger or Murray Goodman who is going to fund the program. But it was going to compete fairly and honorably and it has done that.


If Georgetown is such anathema to your view of the clean, patrician features of the Patriot League, then tell Joe Sterrett you want them out. Georgetown (and Fordham) are guests of the league and are renewed every three years by the vote of the presidents. If the PL doesn't want Georgetown anymore, you don't have to show them the door. The irony is that if Georgetown had 60 full scholarships to offer nationally and was stomping all over the PL, we'd hear the cries for the "Dayton Rule", namely, that Georgetown has too many advantages competing at a national level for other sports and is unfairly competing in this league. At least we don't have to argue that point anytime soon!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

For someone like you who has posted over 21,000 times in 17 years, your comment above is one of the most ill-tempered and ill-informed comments I have ever seen among the Patriot League posting community.


Georetown is not an inept program. It has never been cited by NCAA probation, has never fielded even a single ineligible player, and does not see recruits flunking out because they cannot stay in school. Its 97% graduation rate is the highest in the conference, its academic index is by far the highest in the conference. Its early admissions average SAT now exceeds 1500--try filling an offensive line with those numbers and without scholarships to do so. But because the school chooses not to spend $4.2 million in aid for just one of 29 teams, it doesn't win consistently. We all know that. From 2000-19, Georgetown was 94th of 120 I-AA schools in winning percentage, behind five PL schools but still ahead of Lafayette, Columbia, and Cornell, none of which is being compared to a junior college.


The Patriot League knew exactly what it was getting when it admitted Georgetown University as an associate member in 2000. It took 10 years to build a basketball practice facility, 20 years to finish the football facility this year (really) and the rowing team's boathouse is at 32 years and counting. There is no Jack Bourger or Murray Goodman who is going to fund the program. But it was going to compete fairly and honorably and it has done that.


If Georgetown is such anathema to your view of the clean, patrician features of the Patriot League, then tell Joe Sterrett you want them out. Georgetown (and Fordham) are guests of the league and are renewed every three years by the vote of the presidents. If the PL doesn't want Georgetown anymore, you don't have to show them the door. The irony is that if Georgetown had 60 full scholarships to offer nationally and was stomping all over the PL, we'd hear the cries for the "Dayton Rule", namely, that Georgetown has too many advantages competing at a national level for other sports and is unfairly competing in this league. At least we don't have to argue that point anytime soon!

No it's not! It's reality!

Georgetown is a great academic institution but, in general, they suck at running a Division 1 athletic program. Their management of the football program is an all-time failure in leadership, vision, planning and execution. You constantly complain about Georgetown's inability to schedule, their lack of scholarships, lack of funding, their facilities, their AI etc. It's all the result of the program's failures on EVERY LEVEL! They can't compete in one of the worst (by every rating system) Division 1 football conferences in the country. They are thus one of the VERY VERY worst FCS programs in the country since joining the PL two decades ago. They are the FCS version of Temple in the Big East.

I would absolutely compare Georgetown to Columbia, Cornell and Lafayette in terms of on the field success and management. All three of those programs have been generally awful this last 10-20 years. It's no secret the Lafayette football program (athletics in general) is extremely poorly run. The only real difference is facilities and that's the result of donor support. What makes Georgetown JUCO like is the the entire scope of the failures. The game day experience for a visiting fan/team at Georgetown relative to other PL/D1 schools is mickey-mouse. It's like a small PA High school. The restrooms/porta johns, lack of seating/inability to get a ticket, concessions, the locker rooms, struggling to support live broadcast/replay iirc, press box accommodations for assistant coaches and visiting press; the whole thing has been a disaster.

Those are fantastic stats regarding the character and moral standing of Hoya football players. I'm sure there's other programs with equally fine young adults who are achieving more athletically.

IIRC, Georgetown entered the league gung-ho with what seemed like firm plans to start work on the new stadium that would be completed by 2005'ish? That was the double-decked rendition IIRC. They also came into the league as a successful MAAC program that actually beat a couple of PL teams in the late 90's. At the time most PL fans figured the culture of winning combined with the new stadium and Georgetown name recognition would make the Hoyas a great addition. If you turn the clocks back to 1999 or 2000 very few PL followers knew much, if anything about Hoya athletics except for hoops. As it turned, the PL inherited a mess. Basically what the A10 got in bball in Fordham the PL got in Georgetown when came to football.

I love your passion for Hoya football but please for the love of God just come to grips that Georgetown football's program this century is inept; having or showing no skill; clumsy.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown is a great academic institution but, in general, they suck at running a Division 1 athletic program. Their management of the football program is an all-time failure in leadership, vision, planning and execution. You constantly complain about Georgetown's inability to schedule, their lack of scholarships, lack of funding, their facilities, their AI etc. It's all the result of the program's failures on EVERY LEVEL! They can't compete in one of the worst (by every rating system) Division 1 football conferences in the country. They are thus one of the VERY VERY worst FCS programs in the country since joining the PL two decades ago. They are the FCS version of Temple in the Big East.

I would absolutely compare Georgetown to Columbia, Cornell and Lafayette in terms of on the field success and management. All three of those programs have been generally awful this last 10-20 years. It's no secret the Lafayette football program (athletics in general) is extremely poorly run. The only real difference is facilities and that's the result of donor support. What makes Georgetown JUCO like is the the entire scope of the failures. The game day experience for a visiting fan/team at Georgetown relative to other PL/D1 schools is mickey-mouse. It's like a small PA High school. The restrooms/porta johns, lack of seating/inability to get a ticket, concessions, the locker rooms, struggling to support live broadcast/replay iirc, press box accommodations for assistant coaches and visiting press; the whole thing has been a disaster.


I think we are arguing over two different things.

The facility issue has been a failure--few have criticized it more than I have over these years (N.B. I am a donor, albeit a small one, to said project.) But there was no malfeasance in this effort, it is a byproduct of a university with a linear approach to facilities that will stall unless the money is there. Put another way, Georgetown only builds one project at a time and when other projects get pushed to the top of the line (academic buildings, dorms, etc.), everyone else waits in line. Four different construction projects got ahead of the MSF owing to institutional priorities and, just as importantly, hard cash: a business school building (2009), a science building (2012), the basketball practice facility (2016), and a dorm built explicitly to meet a city ordinance (2017). There was no Jack Bourger at the Georgetown board of directors clearing the tracks for football--even the Cooper gift did not jump the project to the front of the line owing that it was likely an annuity and not an outright gift.

The MSF is now first in line and is probably 50% complete as of this past weekend. (FWIW, there are a number of projects still in line, from an aging recreational center to library renovations to a dormitory being built downtown because GU lacks any space on campus. Everyone is in line.)

MSF/Cooper Field was awful, no argument here. What was the alternative? Playing on Kehoe Field, which was essentially condemned as recreational space and had no permanent seating because it was the roof of said recreational facility? How about Greene Stadium at Howard, except that HU had zero interest in supporting such an idea? How about a barnstorming team that played all its games on the road? None of these were good solutions. It's only been in the last two years that road fans have been cut short on seats, but that will be fixed in 2020.

And if the PL was so put off by the facilities, a simple vote would have sufficed to send Georgetown packing, and they were renewed six straight times.

Almost none of these issues reside at Rob Sgarlata's desk. His task is more challenging: compete as the only non-scholarship team in a scholarship conference in the nation, with the smallest budget in the conference by a factor of 2, and then do so without any elasticity on grades for recruiting because the PL requires it. And if you're an up and coming coach that wants a resume builder, you're probably not coming to Georgetown to begin with.

There are a lot of disappointments over these 20 years. Clearly, I don't like to see the fact that Georgetown is 23-93 in the PL since 2001. The Kevin Kelly years were lean and there was little administrative direction on what to do with him. But it's not been for a lack of effort from the coaches or players.

[Sader87]

Any PL teams bringing in impact transfers?

I don't believe HC has as of now but these things can break very late in the academic year.

[ngineer]

Without allowing graduate student transfers, it will be rare for PL schools to get "impact" transfers.

[Sader87]

Fordham got a good QB from UConn....HC got a QB last year from Wake.

Happening more and more these days.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Fordham got a good QB from UConn....HC got a QB last year from Wake.

Happening more and more these days.

Fordham has a couple key transfers too. The RB they got from Rutgers is a good player. Georgetown's senior QB Gunther Johnson came from Arizona. They also have a WR from Tennessee iirc.

I have no idea why Lehigh has been so allergic to transfers the last several years. The RB from Miami had some potential before getting hurt. I remember Josh Pastore from Kent State about 15 years ago was solid but could never stay healthy. Schwenk was a good QB from Rutgers but broke his arm his senior year and never really lived up to his potential. Lehigh likely has a better shot to beat Colgate in '03 with a healthy Schwenk over punter turned QB Kyle Keating. Colgate beat Lehigh 17-10 in come from behind fashion on their way to the title game.

[Sader87]

Justin Roper new HC OC....was Northern Iowa's QB coach.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Justin Roper new HC OC....was Northern Iowa's QB coach.

Need some Panther input on this one. Clenz should have some solid info.

Quick take is UNI's offense (especially their QBs) has been nothing spectacular but the MVFC has some really good defenses. Seems like an "interesting" "outside of the box" type of hire. If nothing else i like HC taking a bit of a chance on a position coach from one of the top programs in FCS.

[Sader87]

As somewhat expected...HC picked up Merrimack for its open (and opening) game on Sept 5. Interestingly, the game is at Merrimack for some reason. Some speculate it may be as a favor to help HC down the road to gain entry into the Hockey East.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As somewhat expected...HC picked up Merrimack for its open (and opening) game on Sept 5. Interestingly, the game is at Merrimack for some reason. Some speculate it may be as a favor to help HC down the road to gain entry into the Hockey East.

It would have been nice to pick up a quality CAA, MVFC or SoCon team but the reality was HC had very few options. This ensures 11 D1 games which is important come playoff time. All and all, the Crusaders play a very reasonable schedule for a team that expects to be better next year. I really think 9 wins are doable.

[Sader87]

BC, Yale, Brown and at Harvard is a very solid test. Brown returns Perry at QB so that's no gimme. If HC is to win 9 games in '20, we probably have to go undefeated in the PL. We shall see.

[DFW HOYA]

BC, Yale, Brown and at Harvard is a very solid test. Brown returns Perry at QB so that's no gimme. If HC is to win 9 games in '20, we probably have to go undefeated in the PL. We shall see.

If only HC would look to games west of I-95...

[PAllen]

If only HC would look to games west of I-95...

Why? Local teams that are interesting and accessable to their fanbase. Nothing wrong with HC's schedule. Playing South Dakota State might be a challenge from a quality of football standpoint, but it does absolutely nothing to excite the fanbase or enhance the mission of the school.w

[Sader87]

I can see a once a decade or so game for Patriot schools to play far outside the Northeast...it really doesn't make much sense for a variety of reasons today.

Like to see HC play at Air Force again, maybe Rice, Duke, Cal-Poly and or Montana someday...but it just doesn't make sense playing those games yearly right now imo.

[TheValleyRaider]

Quite a few PL schools, including Colgate, recruit nationally for both their student body and football teams. That doesn't mean a trip out to California every year, but there are plenty of potential eyeballs beyond our corner of the country

[DFW HOYA]

I can see a once a decade or so game for Patriot schools to play far outside the Northeast...it really doesn't make much sense for a variety of reasons today.


This speaks to a league in continued decline. The first step to recovery is admitting there is a problem.

[Sader87]

This speaks to a league in continued decline. The first step to recovery is admitting there is a problem.

It is FCS for a reason....there's really no compelling reason for FCS schools to fly all ovah the country to play games every year.

Holy Cross' OOC opponents in 2020 go back over a century Merrimack notwithstanding...no need to substitute Yale for Furman or Cal Poly.

Once in awhile is fine...maybe every 5-10 years a game in California, Colorado but not every year.

[ngineer]

I can see a once a decade or so game for Patriot schools to play far outside the Northeast...it really doesn't make much sense for a variety of reasons today.

Like to see HC play at Air Force again, maybe Rice, Duke, Cal-Poly and or Montana someday...but it just doesn't make sense playing those games yearly right now imo.

Lehigh seems to make a practice of going outside the northeast about once every 4-5 years. This year UC Davis, a few years ago Liberty, and a few years before that, Drake. I think that is a good pattern. Since we're drawing more recruits south of the Mason-Dixon, I think a foray down there every 3 years or so would be good for recruiting and having the kids play a game reasonably close to their homes so the family can see them. Basketball team does that yearly--making one or two of their OOC games in a state or nearby where one or more of the upperclass players hail from.

[Sader87]

I don't disagree in theory...but I wondah how much a game against another FCS program in California, the South, Midwest etc helps recruiting/exposure etc as would a game against Air Force, Duke, Northwestern etc.?

Just think it's not worth the time, $$$, energy etc to travel distantly just to play another FCS school.

[carney2]

Some optimism at Lafayette after 4 PL wins and a victory over the hated Lehighs. I'm not feeling it. Garrett sill smells like a bad hire and one OK QB does not a football team make.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't disagree in theory...but I wondah how much a game against another FCS program in California, the South, Midwest etc helps recruiting/exposure etc as would a game against Air Force, Duke, Northwestern etc.?

Just think it's not worth the time, $$$, energy etc to travel distantly just to play another FCS school.

I don't think it really makes a difference recruiting-wise. Most of the players we are trying to recruit probably are shooting to land slots at the Ivies for the most part. Chances are these kids are going to camps at Harvard, Dartmouth, etc. and making a visit to Holy Cross or participating in our camp is already on these guys radar. I wouldn't mind a game against Princeton, Villanova, Delaware or Richmond as a change of pace but I would give our athletic dept. an A/A- grade for our recent scheduling. We have roots with Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale, Brown and UNH so there's really no urgency to leave the Northeast for the OOC. We had a nice history with UMASS before they moved up as well.

Not to mention, we are the geographic outpost of the PL and already have fairly extensive bus travel within our own conference. So why not play non-conference games closer to home?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Everyone in the PL has their own scheduling priorities but generally speaking they don't stray too far from a certain formula. Lehigh really doesn't have much history playing FBS games as a FCS program and I don't think that will be changing any time soon. What they do have is a long history of always playing the best teams from the Yankee/A10/CAA; that trend should continue. Same with the Ivies. I'm not a "staunch" PL academic guy but I still love the games against the Ancient 8. The AGS rubes be damned, these are great games against some of the best teams in FCS. The Mountain Hawks have also traditionally been willing to hop on a plane and trek to Idaho, St. Mary's, Wofford, Liberty, Drake and UC-Davis which I think is great. It's a national university so it makes sense to have an athletic program that's willing to get adventurous. And as ngineer said, they do.

I personally like NEC games from time to time. The better teams in it are legit Top 40 quality that have established some national viability. The best of the PL is still usually one or two steps ahead of the best from the NEC. They haven't had a team come close to Colgate last year or some other recent Fordham (2 playoff wins against Sacred Heart) and Lehigh teams.

My one gripe about Lehigh's schedule at its core it's mostly a recycled slate of the same 6-8 teams.

For me 1 NEC/PFL game, 2 Ivies, 2/1 CAA, 0/1 SoCon, MVFC, Big South, Big Sky, Southland, OVC, FBS is the ideal setup.

[DFW HOYA]

I was the critic of Holy Cross' bus-trip approach so I'll elaborate.

One of the by-products of the PL's retreat from at-large playoff bids is the perception of strength of schedule; namely, Ivy opponents mean little when an athletic director from the OVC or MVFC is looking at at-large entrants to select. Scheduling "up" is a part of the case for at-large consideration--unless the PL is content with a single bid (and at this point, they may well be), it needs to broaden the base of entrants across the league.

And in this instance, HC has been at the forefront with solid non-conference opponents. Lafayette and Bucknell are lagging in their schedules and after 20 years Georgetown still can't get anyone. But getting out of New England from time to time opens some recruiting doors and gets more attention for the Crusaders. It's a good long term play.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I was the critic of Holy Cross' bus-trip approach so I'll elaborate.

One of the by-products of the PL's retreat from at-large playoff bids is the perception of strength of schedule; namely, Ivy opponents mean little when an athletic director from the OVC or MVFC is looking at at-large entrants to select. Scheduling "up" is a part of the case for at-large consideration--unless the PL is content with a single bid (and at this point, they may well be), it needs to broaden the base of entrants across the league.

And in this instance, HC has been at the forefront with solid non-conference opponents. Lafayette and Bucknell are lagging in their schedules and after 20 years Georgetown still can't get anyone. But getting out of New England from time to time opens some recruiting doors and gets more attention for the Crusaders. It's a good long term play.

I don't believe the Ivies are held against the PL, or CAA (increasing number of IL games) for that matter, come selection time. It certainly was not an issue when the field was 16 teams. IMO the only place where the IL worthiness is questioned is on message boards like this where people just don't like the elitist vibe so they refuse to give the Ancient 8 the benefit of the doubt. Administrators operate on a whole different wave length imo.

The PL simply has to win games! I don't care who they schedule just start winning games. The rest will take care of itself.

[TheValleyRaider]

I don't believe the Ivies are held against the PL, or CAA (increasing number of IL games) for that matter, come selection time. It certainly was not an issue when the field was 16 teams. IMO the only place where the IL worthiness is questioned is on message boards like this where people just don't like the elitist vibe so they refuse to give the Ancient 8 the benefit of the doubt. Administrators operate on a whole different wave length imo.

The PL simply has to win games! I don't care who they schedule just start winning games. The rest will take care of itself.

I think this is obviously the key takeaway, but DFW's point about outside perception isn't without weight. If the Ivies are the only marquee OOC victories, that isn't going to carry the same national weight as a CAA or other full-scholarship opponent. Assuming victories (for argument's sake), switching one or two Ivies (for the League's overall slate) for a CAA and SoCon team could be the difference between an at-large/one-bid league, or getting the League champ a seed.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't believe the Ivies are held against the PL, or CAA (increasing number of IL games) for that matter, come selection time. It certainly was not an issue when the field was 16 teams. IMO the only place where the IL worthiness is questioned is on message boards like this where people just don't like the elitist vibe so they refuse to give the Ancient 8 the benefit of the doubt. Administrators operate on a whole different wave length imo.

The PL simply has to win games! I don't care who they schedule just start winning games. The rest will take care of itself.

I agree. The small contingent of AGS posters who are pretty much blind to the quality of Ivy League football aren't the ones making the selections. The PL hasn't gotten multiple bids lately because OUR conference stinks. Not to mention, we aren't BEATING the top Ivy teams any more, we are losing nearly all of these match-ups. Losing to Dartmouth, Harvard and/or Princeton is not going to help a PL team secure an at-large, but beating these teams certainly would help a second-place bubble team get in.

[Bill]

Not to be a contrarian to many here, but I echo DFW's thoughts with this statement:

"One of the by-products of the PL's retreat from at-large playoff bids is the perception of strength of schedule; namely, Ivy opponents mean little when an athletic director from the OVC or MVFC is looking at at-large entrants to select. Scheduling "up" is a part of the case for at-large consideration--unless the PL is content with a single bid (and at this point, they may well be), it needs to broaden the base of entrants across the league."

I can't speak for the experience today, but in the early 2000's, we were devastated when we lost to Penn (especially 2003). We had heard from several people involved with the committee that schools like Lehigh simply can't lose to the Ivy League and be considered for an at large bid. The committee (at that time) considered - rightly or wrongly - "that losing to the IL was like losing to a JV team"

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not to be a contrarian to many here, but I echo DFW's thoughts with this statement:

"One of the by-products of the PL's retreat from at-large playoff bids is the perception of strength of schedule; namely, Ivy opponents mean little when an athletic director from the OVC or MVFC is looking at at-large entrants to select. Scheduling "up" is a part of the case for at-large consideration--unless the PL is content with a single bid (and at this point, they may well be), it needs to broaden the base of entrants across the league."

I can't speak for the experience today, but in the early 2000's, we were devastated when we lost to Penn (especially 2003). We had heard from several people involved with the committee that schools like Lehigh simply can't lose to the Ivy League and be considered for an at large bid. The committee (at that time) considered - rightly or wrongly - "that losing to the IL was like losing to a JV team"


I got my years mixed up thinking Lehigh lost to Penn in 2004 but it was indeed 2003 so I had to edit my post....

Lehigh was right on the bubble in 2003. They lost to two undefeated FCS teams iirc and 9-3 FBS UConn. However, in a 16 team field 8 wins was a tough sell. Lehigh ended up getting an at-large the following year with a home loss to a good but not great 'Nova team in Lafayette.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I got my years mixed up thinking Lehigh lost to Penn in 2004 but it was indeed 2003 so I had to edit my post....

Lehigh was right on the bubble in 2003. They lost to two undefeated FCS teams iirc and 9-3 FBS UConn. However, in a 16 team field 8 wins was a tough sell. Lehigh ended up getting an at-large the following year with a home loss to a good but not great 'Nova team in Lafayette.

Key point. The 2003 Lehigh team which finished 8-3 LOST to Penn. Quality LOSSES don't get you into the FCS playoffs as an at-large out of the Patriot League. A 9-2 record with a quality WIN over Penn probably would've gotten you in. Did ANY 8-win PL team ever qualify as an at-large when the field was 16 teams? 10-1 Lehigh was left out when the field was already 20 in 2012.

[Bill]

NY Crusader

Yes, I agree. The point I was trying to make was about the (perhaps then?) national perception of the IL. In 2003, a loss to that Penn team - which was 10-0 - was considered a "bad" loss by the committee.
What was even more frustrating was how the loss unfolded. We were cruising along - up 24-10 in the third - until a freak lightning delay...and we never got back on track. Uggh.

[NY Crusader 2010]

NY Crusader

Yes, I agree. The point I was trying to make was about the (perhaps then?) national perception of the IL. In 2003, a loss to that Penn team - which was 10-0 - was considered a "bad" loss by the committee.
What was even more frustrating was how the loss unfolded. We were cruising along - up 24-10 in the third - until a freak lightning delay...and we never got back on track. Uggh.

That Penn team, while they may have been underappreciated to an extent, still had to have been Top 25, correct? A win over Top 25 9-1 Penn definitely would have put Lehigh in the postseason at 9-2. The UCONN team they lost to had Dan Orlovsky at QB I think -- also a quality loss. Unfortunately, 8-3 out of the PL with no quality out of conference WINS = no playoffs in a field of 16.

You may be correct that the perception of the Ivy League was a little bit worse back then than now. But I still think the Ivy champ was getting their token spot in the I-AA polls somewhere in the #15 - #20 range. The following year, in 2004, the Ryan Fitzpatrick-led Harvard team finished 10-0 and somewhere in that general ballpark despite Sagarin having the Crimson at a near deadlock with national champ JMU at the end of the season.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That Penn team, while they may have been underappreciated to an extent, still had to have been Top 25, correct? A win over Top 25 9-1 Penn definitely would have put Lehigh in the postseason at 9-2. The UCONN team they lost to had Dan Orlovsky at QB I think -- also a quality loss. Unfortunately, 8-3 out of the PL with no quality out of conference WINS = no playoffs in a field of 16.

You may be correct that the perception of the Ivy League was a little bit worse back then than now. But I still think the Ivy champ was getting their token spot in the I-AA polls somewhere in the #15 - #20 range. The following year, in 2004, the Ryan Fitzpatrick-led Harvard team finished 10-0 and somewhere in that general ballpark despite Sagarin having the Crimson at a near deadlock with national champ JMU at the end of the season.

The 11/23/03 (pre-playoff) TSN Poll had the following

#1 McNeese State 10-1
#2 Wofford 10-1
#3 Delaware - Eventual National Champion
#4 Southern Illinois 10-1
#5 UMass - Colgate's 1st round opponent
#6 Colgate 12-0
#8 Penn 10-0
#10 Western Illinois - Colgate's quarterfinal opponent
#13 Florida Atlantic - Colgate's semifinal opponent
#25 Lehigh 8-3

A win over Penn would have easily cemented Lehigh in the playoffs. That Quaker team got plenty of respect. Penn football had garnered national attention in 2002 when Game Day showed up to witness a 44-9 beatdown of Harvard. Those Quaker teams were silly good. They and Harvard had some elite All-American level talent then too. Penn was also bringing in key transfers. Gavin Hoffman was literally and figuratively a big get from Northwestern. I'd say the IL in the early 00's and the IL now are quite comparable. Sadly, the PL is nowhere close to as good as it was in the early 2000's.

Another factor that hurt Lehigh in 2003 was Montana State coming out of nowhere and stealing the Big Sky auto-bid for a second straight season with a 7-5 record. At the time I believe 5 losses were the most ever for a playoff team and they pulled it off two years in a row

[NY Crusader 2010]

Another factor that hurt Lehigh in 2003 was Montana State coming out of nowhere and stealing the Big Sky auto-bid for a second straight season with a 7-5 record. At the time I believe 5 losses were the most ever for a playoff team and they pulled it off two years in a two.

Montana State '03 -- No team has ever qualified for the I-AA playoffs with 5 losses. We're the first.

THE PATRIOT LEAGUE -- HOLD MY BEER

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

So how has signing day gone? Gilmore and Lehigh have closed surprisingly well imo. It's all basically the luck of the draw but you still need to "steal" a few....

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

NY Crusader,

According to wiki, Harvard finished 13th in the post-playoff 2004 Top 25. Interesting nugget is the Crimson received two first place votes but were 12th in last regular season Top 25.

[NY Crusader 2010]

NY Crusader,

According to wiki, Harvard finished 13th in the post-playoff 2004 Top 25. Interesting nugget is the Crimson received two first place votes but were 12th in last regular season Top 25.

13th in the polls. Virtual tie for first with JMU in Sagarin's power set. The two first place voters likely were looking at this rating.

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaaf/sagarin/2004/team/

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Signing Day in Lewisburg

https://bucknellbison.com/news/2020/2/5/bucknell-football-adds-10-to-incoming-freshman-class.aspx

[TheValleyRaider]

Colgate signing day: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2020/2/5/football-raiders-continue-signing-day-success.aspx

Includes video of Hunt talking about the newest Raiders

[van]

signing day in Bethlehem, added 8 to the 12 from early period. a number of verbal commits yet to trickle in, need a big class (30 or more) to get numbers back up

https://lehighsports.com/news/2020/2/5/mountain-hawks-add-eight-to-football-class-of-2024.aspx

everyone thinks their class is great (except maybe DFW) but only time will tell

[TheValleyRaider]

Colgate signing day: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2020/2/5/football-raiders-continue-signing-day-success.aspx

Includes video of Hunt talking about the newest Raiders

To add to this is an interview with Coach Hunt: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2020/2/7/football-colgate-raider-report-podcast-debuts.aspx (about the last 20 minutes).

One interesting point of emphasis was the number of kids who had won state titles or had gone deep in the postseason. Make of that what you will, but it did come up in quite a few instances.

[RichH2]

signing day in Bethlehem, added 8 to the 12 from early period. a number of verbal commits yet to trickle in, need a big class (30 or more) to get numbers back up

https://lehighsports.com/news/2020/2/5/mountain-hawks-add-eight-to-football-class-of-2024.aspx

everyone thinks their class is great (except maybe DFW) but only time will tell

Hoyas got a great class. Scanning their commits , at least 9 or 10 top level kids. Herosports ranks Hoyas as the best in the PL on its metric of individual player's offer sheet. Lehigh,Cross and Colgate all with strong classes at least on paper. ;)

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Hoyas got a great class. Scanning their commits , at least 9 or 10 top level kids. Herosports ranks Hoyas as the best in the PL on its metric of individual player's offer sheet. Lehigh,Cross and Colgate all with strong classes at least on paper. ;)

The Hoyas have been getting good talent the last 3-4 years. It's time for Sgarlata and company to make it payoff in the win department. Last year was a huge disappointment.

Obviously, the fascinating take away here is the need-base school out-recruiting the scholarship programs (at least based on this metric). Especially, given Georgetown's track record of "success" the last 20 years.

[van]

Hoyas should be able to recruit competitively against Ivies, and that ain't too shabby

[DFW HOYA]

Hoyas should be able to recruit competitively against Ivies, and that ain't too shabby


Huh? Can you be specific?

[van]

Good morning Senator Murkowski, where did you matriculate? How about you Senator Durbin? Ivanka? Eric? Hunter? etc, etc

[Sader87]

Sounds like the PL did really well in the recruiting battles this year via Herosports....

[DFW HOYA]

Good morning Senator Murkowski, where did you matriculate? How about you Senator Durbin? Ivanka? Eric? Hunter? etc, etc

Last I checked, none of them played football. (Not even Sterling Archer.) But you're missing the point. Georgetown isn't able to compete directly with the Ivies because they will lose on aid nearly every time. Put aside the sales pitch that a Saturday at Cooper Field is just as good as Princeton Stadium or Franklin Field, the Ivies can offer deeply discounted tuition to families under $200K in a way Georgetown simply can't. Institutionally, Georgetown does great with 1st generation kids at the low end of household income, and can get players from families who can afford to can pay full fare, but loses consistently with middle income applicants because the aid packages aren't as good. That's why Sgarlata tends to recruit more outside the East than nearly every PL school--the middle class markets of PA/NJ/NY are not a competitive place to be anymore.

Part of the ongoing problem with recruiting isn't the results (however you define them) but that Georgetown fares poorly recruiting impact players on offense. It gets its share of DT's and LB's, but there hasn't been an impact RB or a dominant WR signed to Georgetown since joining the PL 20 years ago. Why? Those positions get scholarships. As long as GU relies on 5-10, 170 lb. RB's and second team all-county linemen, it's not going to generate the offense to compete outside of Bucknell and Lafayette, much less against better teams across the East.

[van]

what you cite is no doubt true, but it is mainly self-inflicted, Georgetown should be able to recruit better, they just choose not to

[DFW HOYA]

what you cite is no doubt true, but it is mainly self-inflicted, Georgetown should be able to recruit better, they just choose not to

Absent scholarships, they do they best they can. Most times, that's not enough.

[Fordham]

DFW, your description sounds like what Clawson was dealing with in the non-scholarship days at Fordham. It's tough but can be done. Those teams were as talented as any we've ever had. You mentioned recruiting the kids whose families will pay full fare in order to go to Gtown. The flip side is finding those who get enough need based aid that they get close to a full ride that way. You end up recruiting the really rich and the really poor. Not surprised now that I'm reminded of that model that Sgarlata is able to have the success he's having with it

[ngineer]

Yes, van is correct. Georgetown has always been the 'sleeping giant'. They have the 'cache' of their 'Ivy-like' reputation on a national basis. The key word is "should". If they committed the money to the effort, they could be perennial power.

[DFW HOYA]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/csjs-ranking-of-the-patriot-leagues-2024-football-recruiting-classes-the-patsy-ratings/

[RichH2]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/csjs-ranking-of-the-patriot-leagues-2024-football-recruiting-classes-the-patsy-ratings/

So, Georgetown no longer sleeping it seems.:) Hell of a class. Cross may have a broader base of talent in its class. Hoyas have more top end talent. Lehigh did much better in the 2nd round of recruiting. A solid class. Two of our better recruits are PGs which dont count in this system. Even so they would have only gotten us a bit closer to the top 2.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/csjs-ranking-of-the-patriot-leagues-2024-football-recruiting-classes-the-patsy-ratings/

Thanks, DFW. I thought the Hoya's No. 1 overall ranking should prompt some questions.

Did Georgetown finally cut loose and finally let their head coach do something recruiting-wise? Is this just the product of very good coaching and recruiting? Is "going through the aid office" simply... better for private schools than the tradition scholarship model? Or is there less to this than meets the eye?

[NY Crusader 2010]

DFW, your description sounds like what Clawson was dealing with in the non-scholarship days at Fordham. It's tough but can be done. Those teams were as talented as any we've ever had. You mentioned recruiting the kids whose families will pay full fare in order to go to Gtown. The flip side is finding those who get enough need based aid that they get close to a full ride that way. You end up recruiting the really rich and the really poor. Not surprised now that I'm reminded of that model that Sgarlata is able to have the success he's having with it


The Ivy League model in a nutshell. "Non-scholarship" in name only.

And recruiting rankings mean nothing on paper in my opinion, but consider me someone who hopes that Georgetown finds a way to be part of the equation that turns around the fortunes of the Patriot League in the aggregate. Call it scholarships, call it need based aid, I want to see the Hoyas competitive every year and then some. Last thing we need is a program with MAAC-level commitment in the conference heading into this next decade.

[van]

will an improved Hoya lead to more Ivy games? or are the facilities still holding them back?

[Fordham]

Thanks, DFW. I thought the Hoya's No. 1 overall ranking should prompt some questions.

Did Georgetown finally cut loose and finally let their head coach do something recruiting-wise? Is this just the product of very good coaching and recruiting? Is "going through the aid office" simply... better for private schools than the tradition scholarship model? Or is there less to this than meets the eye?
Good stuff in the article. Always nice to see some good PL info to read about in the off season. Plus, as someone who was around for carney starting them it was a nice call back to the fun that surrounded those first few Patsy rankings.

Question - where did you get the Fordham needs from?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The local ABC news affiliate (WNEP) did a nice story on Bucknell punter Alex Pechin last night. He's 1 of 12 punters who will be in Indy for the combine.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yes, van is correct. Georgetown has always been the 'sleeping giant'. They have the 'cache' of their 'Ivy-like' reputation on a national basis. The key word is "should". If they committed the money to the effort, they could be perennial power.

There's many parallels between Georgetown football and Fordham men's basketball that can be drawn. The institutional failures in both situations are epic. ESPN could make a 30 for 30 about it.....

[DFW HOYA]

There's many parallels between Georgetown football and Fordham men's basketball that can be drawn. The institutional failures in both situations are epic. ESPN could make a 30 for 30 about it.....

Actually, there are very few parallels.

Fordham basketball has been led by a group of administrators who were (and are) blind to its noncompetitive nature in the A-10. Frank McLaughlin (athletic director from 1985-2012) bears his share of responsibility for this institutional myopia, but it has continued since he turned the job over to his successor. They literally don't know what to do.

Georgetown football has struggled to grow at a school which was uncomfortable devoting resources to any sport that would otherwise go to men's basketball, who now spends over $12 million a year with diminishing returns of late. Georgetown is not blind to football's competitive deficiency but is not that concerned about it.

In some corners of Rose Hill Gym, it's still 1971 and the next Charlie Yelverton is just around the corner. (Since 1971, Fordham has a total of one NCAA post-season appearance.) By contrast, Georgetown doesn't have that "golden era" of contemporary success to even compare to, having never earned a post-season bid in Division II, III, or I-AA. Fordham basketball's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #9 ranking on March 15, 1971. Georgetown football's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #13 ranking on Nov. 22, 1940.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Actually, there are very few parallels.

Fordham basketball has been led by a group of administrators who were (and are) blind to its noncompetitive nature in the A-10. Frank McLaughlin (athletic director from 1985-2012) bears his share of responsibility for this institutional myopia, but it has continued since he turned the job over to his successor. They literally don't know what to do.

Georgetown football has struggled to grow at a school which was uncomfortable devoting resources to any sport that would otherwise go to men's basketball, who now spends over $12 million a year with diminishing returns of late. Georgetown is not blind to football's competitive deficiency but is not that concerned about it.

In some corners of Rose Hill Gym, it's still 1971 and the next Charlie Yelverton is just around the corner. (Since 1971, Fordham has a total of one NCAA post-season appearance.) By contrast, Georgetown doesn't have that "golden era" of contemporary success to even compare to, having never earned a post-season bid in Division II, III, or I-AA. Fordham basketball's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #9 ranking on March 15, 1971. Georgetown football's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #13 ranking on Nov. 22, 1940.

Both moved sports (Georgetown football/Fordham Men's Bball) to respective conferences they weren't ready to compete in. When it was clear they weren't ready to compete years of endless mishandling and failed bandages have ensued. Any way you cut it both programs have suffered from woeful facilities. Georgetown has slowly tried to fix that problem while Fordham's approach was a few games at the Meadowlands Arena years ago iirc. Both are prominent Catholic/Jesuit universities located in DC and NYC respectively. There's also the interesting nugget that the last time Fordham hoops was usually pretty good they were in the MAAC. The same could be said for Georgetown football and its ties to the MAAC in the 90's

There's no question that current Fordham President Father McShane is extremely apathetic towards athletics. I said that years ago based on what faculty and administration from the University of Scranton told me. You admit Georgetown knows football's struggles have been more or less the result of an open indifference to winning. Both places have suffered from basically from the same thing (lack of caring) which has led to 2 decades of pitiful results.

I bring this up because Fordham hoops is absolutely atrocious and something has to be done imo. I'm not sure what the worst 20-25 year record is for a men's D1 program but they have to be making a strong run at it.....

[NY Crusader 2010]

The big difference between Fordham and Georgetown is that Georgetown CAN and WILL compete in the Patriot League in football with the proper funding and support. Georgetown is the most academically prestigious institution in an ACADEMIC league, and it's not even close. Financial aid package notwithstanding, any prospective football recruit would be foolish not to at least think about committing to Georgetown over other PL schools.

Fordham is absolute toast in the Atlantic 10. With a 25-year head-start, the Rams have already been passed by VCU in all-time conference wins. They should join the CAA or Patriot League in all sports IMO. The gig is up. I have seen nothing over the course of 20 years of following Fordham basketball that indicates that the program is capable of sustained success at this level. Even if they strike gold with an up-and-coming coach, that individual will bolt as soon as another opportunity presents itself. And after Pecora couldn't win there, most would be apprehensive to accept this career-killing head coaching job. Every major recruit they've managed to bring in since Bevon Robin graduated has transferred after one or two years. There's just no end. The administration needs to make it stop and make the right decision.

[DFW HOYA]

Both places have suffered from basically from the same thing (lack of caring) which has led to 2 decades of pitiful results.

Georgetown does not lack for care but the value proposition isn't there. In 2012, the PL asked its schools to commit to roughly $4 million in scholarship aid a year. Even if you assume a random distribution of the PL title (which there isn't), a school would need to spend $40 million over 10 years to compete for one or two playoff appearances per school during that time. That didn't get any support at Georgetown for three reasons:

1. Conference affiliation. As a Big East school, Georgetown was expected to hold its own with funding for Big East sports, something it frankly did not maintain in the 1990's and 2000's. Only eight of its 29 (soon to be 30) sports even carry the expected number of full scholarship equivalents; for example, its men's sports share roughly 60 scholarships between them. The idea that a non-Big East sport was going to consume 60 scholarship FTE's on its own was not realistic. Where Georgetown has added scholarships (a national title with men's soccer being the most sucessful example), it has been well received, but it is focusing funds on supporting Big East sponsored sports first and foremost.


2. Transfer costs. The not so secret fact was that as many as five PL schools used an accounting maneuver to support full scholarship football. The non-scholarship aid packages at Fordham, for example, were paid out of the athletic budget, so a conversion to a grant in aid was not a significant disruption of the school's budgetary structure. Georgetown's football aid money comes out of general use financial aid, so any major reallocation to the athletic department would have been a significant issue at a school where need based aid is central to its mission.

3. Downside risk. Lafayette might have stayed with a non-scholarship option but the idea of a noncompetitive series with Lehigh was politically untenable. Scholarships at Holy Cross was the gateway to make the case to return to the BC schedule and some of the other schools to which it has a regional rivalry. There is no alumni outcry that Georgetown's rivalry game with [fill in the blank] is ruined because they don't have any such game. Neither was there the quid pro quo that Georgetown could get on a rotation at Maryland, Duke, or Virginia where these schools have zero historical ties with the Georgetown program over the last 70 years versus what BC does at Mt. St. James.

If you're asking how this is tolerated at Georgetown, there is precedent. In the 1980's, baseball at Gerogetown got within two outs of the NCAA playoffs while a member of the ECAC South, but then moved to the Big East, where nearly every program was (and is) full scholarship. Since 1986, its first season in the Big East, Georgetown baseball has posted 33 consecutive losing seasons and suffered the ignominy of losing its own field on campus, as they now play in a public park in Bethesda. The decision was that the value of competing was a better choice than shutting down a program that dated to 1870, and with a couple of scholarships here and there, baseball has approached (but not surpassed) the .500 mark. Everyone at Georgetown knows that baseball isn't going to the NCAA's but it is not worth giving up entirely as a result of a lack of institutional support.

And back to Fordham: no one suggests Fordham doesn't have the money or tools to compete. Fordham basketball isn't non-scholarship and it can offer a scholarship to nearly anyone it wants. Its budget is 8th of 14 schools--not the best, but not the worst. It is within a 20 mile radius of some of the best high school talent anywhere, yet no one wants to play there. Excepting Tom Penders, its coaching decisions since 1971 are remarkably unremarkable: Hal Wissel, Dick Stewart, Bob Quinn, Nick Macarchuk, Bob Hill, Dereck Wittenburg, Tom Pecora, Jeff Neubauer.

Is it time for Fordham to take a page from SMU basketball who, after two decades of nonperforming coaches, reached out to a semi-retired Hall of Fame coach, gave him three years to set the program back on the national stage, and then hand it off to a young assistant? From a 13-19 record under Matt Doherty, this coach led SMU to a record of 94-39 before leaving the progam, albeit with the NCAA sheriffs not far behind. Notwithstanding, SMU is now a competitive program...and Fordham is not.

That coach was Larry Brown, who is frankly too old for another challenge. However, another HOF coach is sitting by the phone, a Catholic kid from NYC who remembers when Fordham basketball was something you could sell tickets for at the Garden. And if you really want to shake up Fordham basketball after a half century of slumber, start with these 12 words:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the new coach of the Fordham Rams, Rick Pitino."

[Sader87]

Rick Pitino put out feelers last year to coach at Holy Cross....it was not well received at O'Kane/Fenwick. Fact.

JT III was a finalist for the job as well.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Rick Pitino put out feelers last year to coach at Holy Cross....it was not well received at O'Kane/Fenwick. Fact.

JT III was a finalist for the job as well.

If JT3 was a finalist and Holy Cross opted for the Sloppy Joe they got now 3-26 seems like just punishment for such....hmmm...stupidity? But this is PL athletics so maybe par for the course....

[Sader87]

Brett Nelson gets a pass this year....walked into a colossal mess....we'll get a bettah feel for his coaching next year

[Fordham]

Actually, there are very few parallels.

Fordham basketball has been led by a group of administrators who were (and are) blind to its noncompetitive nature in the A-10. Frank McLaughlin (athletic director from 1985-2012) bears his share of responsibility for this institutional myopia, but it has continued since he turned the job over to his successor. They literally don't know what to do.

Georgetown football has struggled to grow at a school which was uncomfortable devoting resources to any sport that would otherwise go to men's basketball, who now spends over $12 million a year with diminishing returns of late. Georgetown is not blind to football's competitive deficiency but is not that concerned about it.

In some corners of Rose Hill Gym, it's still 1971 and the next Charlie Yelverton is just around the corner. (Since 1971, Fordham has a total of one NCAA post-season appearance.) By contrast, Georgetown doesn't have that "golden era" of contemporary success to even compare to, having never earned a post-season bid in Division II, III, or I-AA. Fordham basketball's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #9 ranking on March 15, 1971. Georgetown football's last appearance in the Associated Press ranking was a #13 ranking on Nov. 22, 1940.
TU Owl, I think DFW nailed this. The most important difference between the two programs in the comparison you made is that basketball is supposed to be our marquee sport, while football is mostly an afterthought at Gtown and closer to club level sports than their marquee one. It's really stunning ineptitude to produce those results in what is supposed to be your most important sport. We're not even blind-squirrel good

[NY Crusader 2010]

Rick Pitino put out feelers last year to coach at Holy Cross....it was not well received at O'Kane/Fenwick. Fact.

JT III was a finalist for the job as well.

I did not hear about JTIII -- there WERE rumors that the AD at William & Mary fired their Men's Basketball coach after last season because she thought she was going to bring Thomson in.

HC would never hire Pitino -- we are not in the "entertainment business". But Fordham SHOULD hire Pitino and I've been saying this for over a year. If you're playing A-10 basketball, you are at least supposed to be trying to be big time. Rick Pitino is probably the only guy who would take that job that could actually win there.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

TU Owl, I think DFW nailed this. The most important difference between the two programs in the comparison you made is that basketball is supposed to be our marquee sport, while football is mostly an afterthought at Gtown and closer to club level sports than their marquee one. It's really stunning ineptitude to produce those results in what is supposed to be your most important sport. We're not even blind-squirrel good

Basketball is "suppose to be" Fordham's marquee sport based on what? Simply because of their A10 conference affiliation? Was football suppose to Temple's marquee sport when it was in the Big East? Fordham has one less NCAA Tournament appearances than Lehigh (5 to 4) and as many tournament wins; one each. The Rams peppered the NIT when they were in the MAAC but had little to no success advancing. At best Fordham was a solid regional program for the majority of its existence. Fordham football imo has a much better track record of success dating back to the "Seven Blocks of Granite". Heck, Chase Edmonds keeps Fordham in the convo because of fantasy football. I'm not sure what their hoops is nationally known for? The place where Digger Phelps coached before Notre Dame? The Rose Hill historical fact is a bit obscure.

Georgetown football is division 1 program which a looong way away from club level. Treating a Division 1 program in such manner has clearly been a competitive failure.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I did not hear about JTIII -- there WERE rumors that the AD at William & Mary fired their Men's Basketball coach after last season because she thought she was going to bring Thomson in.

HC would never hire Pitino -- we are not in the "entertainment business". But Fordham SHOULD hire Pitino and I've been saying this for over a year. If you're playing A-10 basketball, you are at least supposed to be trying to be big time. Rick Pitino is probably the only guy who would take that job that could actually win there.

Yeah I want '87 to expand upon this one! That would have been a game changer imo. He'd be way better than Carmody. Bill road the coattails of the '97-'98 Princeton team for 20 years.

[Fordham]

Basketball is "suppose to be" Fordham's marquee sport based on what? Simply because of their A10 conference affiliation? Was football suppose to Temple's marquee sport when it was in the Big East? Fordham has one less NCAA Tournament appearances than Lehigh (5 to 4) and as many tournament wins; one each. The Rams peppered the NIT when they were in the MAAC but had little to no success advancing. At best Fordham was a solid regional program for the majority of its existence. Fordham football imo has a much better track record of success dating back to the "Seven Blocks of Granite". Heck, Chase Edmonds keeps Fordham in the convo because of fantasy football. I'm not sure what their hoops is nationally known for? The place where Digger Phelps coached before Notre Dame? The Rose Hill historical fact is a bit obscure.

Georgetown football is division 1 program which a looong way away from club level. Treating a Division 1 program in such manner has clearly been a competitive failure.
Basketball as the marquee sport is as stated from the university, believe it or not

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Basketball as the marquee sport is as stated from the university, believe it or not

Fordham saying that takes me back to the "Seinfeld" episode regarding taking and keeping rental car reservations. Anyone can take a rental car reservation it's the execution in making sure the car is present for the customer that truly makes a "reservation" a "reservation".

If Fordham's administration bases the "marquee sport" tag on conference association rather than success/exposure than I guess they're right? Personally, I would say Johns Hopkins membership in the Big 10 for lax is far more reflective of a school highlighting their "marquee sport". Given Fordham's overall hoops history and the administration's horrific handling of the program the last 25 years I certainly wouldn't call it Fordham's "marquee sport". I think most reasonable observers sadly know basketball as an epic disaster.

I'd be interested to hear what a fan/alum of a school like Northern Iowa thinks is the school's marquee sport. I would lean ever so slightly towards basketball.

[Sader87]

Yeah I want '87 to expand upon this one! That would have been a game changer imo. He'd be way better than Carmody. Bill road the coattails of the '97-'98 Princeton team for 20 years.

JT III was one of the finalists for the HC job....from impeccable sources...Pitino was a non-stahhtah

[ngineer]

I did not hear about JTIII -- there WERE rumors that the AD at William & Mary fired their Men's Basketball coach after last season because she thought she was going to bring Thomson in.

HC would never hire Pitino -- we are not in the "entertainment business". But Fordham SHOULD hire Pitino and I've been saying this for over a year. If you're playing A-10 basketball, you are at least supposed to be trying to be big time. Rick Pitino is probably the only guy who would take that job that could actually win there.

I remember when Lafayette hired Butch van Bred Kolff back in the mid-80's. Of course, that was just before the Patriot League was formed and most of us were in the old ECC. Butch put on a show at times!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

[/B]I remember when Lafayette hired Butch van Bred Kolff back in the mid-80's. Of course, that was just before the Patriot League was formed and most of us were in the old ECC. Butch put on a show at times!

He beat a ranked Notre Dame at Fisher Fieldhouse in 1988 iirc!!

[NY Crusader 2010]

Fordham basketball would actually benefit from the school moving all sports to the PL or CAA. They'd be recruiting from a completely different pool and would actually be able to keep their top players there for four years assuming coaching stability, which of course would be more likely at that level. I think a Patriot League trifecta of Bucknell, Holy Cross and Fordham at the top of the league would be great. Despite all the losing, Fordham still DOES have a very loyal fan base. IMO, these fans would not jump ship because of a conference "demotion" and students and young alum would be energized to support a team with a fighting chance to make the NCAA's every year. Most Fordham alum stay in New York after graduation -- support would be strong for a winning basketball program. Does the average Ram grad under the age of 35 really value playing Dayton, Duquesne and St. Joe's as opposed to Holy Cross, American and Colgate? I doubt it.

[carney2]

Fordham basketball would actually benefit from the school moving all sports to the PL or CAA. They'd be recruiting from a completely different pool and would actually be able to keep their top players there for four years assuming coaching stability, which of course would be more likely at that level. I think a Patriot League trifecta of Bucknell, Holy Cross and Fordham at the top of the league would be great. Despite all the losing, Fordham still DOES have a very loyal fan base. IMO, these fans would not jump ship because of a conference "demotion" and students and young alum would be energized to support a team with a fighting chance to make the NCAA's every year. Most Fordham alum stay in New York after graduation -- support would be strong for a winning basketball program. Does the average Ram grad under the age of 35 really value playing Dayton, Duquesne and St. Joe's as opposed to Holy Cross, American and Colgate? I doubt it.

Fordham took all sports except football out of the Patriot League almost 30 years ago because of basketball. It is ridiculous to think that many in Ramland would be happy to reverse that course. I'm sure that the constant failure is bothersome to all, but they are "with their peers" and that, apparently, is a big deal. (It's Fordham's version of 87's "we coulda been in the Big East.") They will continue to blame the coaches and the coaching hires and plod on down their delusional path.

[Sader87]

There is a certain institutional history with regards to most Catholic schools putting basketball before football as their primary sport.

Much of this was financial initially....hoop obviously being less expensive in a host of ways. Also it was more of the "city game" as many Catholic schools were/are in more urban areas.

At one point in the 1980s, the only Catholic colleges playing D1 football were Note Dame, Boston College and Holy Cross.

[carney2]

For what it's worth (not much), Fordham's record in men's basketball since joining the A-10 is 237-494. That's a .324 winning percentage, by far the lowest in the conference. Be careful what you wish for ...

[DFW HOYA]

There is a certain institutional history with regards to most Catholic schools putting basketball before football as their primary sport.

Much of this was financial initially....hoop obviously being less expensive in a host of ways. Also it was more of the "city game" as many Catholic schools were/are in more urban areas.

At one point in the 1980s, the only Catholic colleges playing D1 football were Note Dame, Boston College and Holy Cross.

What do these three schools have in common? On-campus stadiums. Had Boston College not moved back to Chestnut Hill, there's no guarantee they would have stuck it out, either.

[Fordham]

For what it's worth (not much), Fordham's record in men's basketball since joining the A-10 is 237-494. That's a .324 winning percentage, by far the lowest in the conference. Be careful what you wish for ...

That's our Marquee (sic) de Sade sport!!

[The Boogie Down]

That coach was Larry Brown, who is frankly too old for another challenge. However, another HOF coach is sitting by the phone, a Catholic kid from NYC who remembers when Fordham basketball was something you could sell tickets for at the Garden. And if you really want to shake up Fordham basketball after a half century of slumber, start with these 12 words:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the new coach of the Fordham Rams, Rick Pitino."

I'd prefer dropping men’s basketball entirely (hey, its almost there anyway) than bringing in a scumbag like Pitino.


Fordham basketball would actually benefit from the school moving all sports to the PL or CAA. They'd be recruiting from a completely different pool and would actually be able to keep their top players there for four years assuming coaching stability, which of course would be more likely at that level. I think a Patriot League trifecta of Bucknell, Holy Cross and Fordham at the top of the league would be great. Despite all the losing, Fordham still DOES have a very loyal fan base. IMO, these fans would not jump ship because of a conference "demotion" and students and young alum would be energized to support a team with a fighting chance to make the NCAA's every year. Most Fordham alum stay in New York after graduation -- support would be strong for a winning basketball program. Does the average Ram grad under the age of 35 really value playing Dayton, Duquesne and St. Joe's as opposed to Holy Cross, American and Colgate? I doubt it.

Aside from men’s hoops Fordham competes well in the A-10. During the last academic year, Fordham finished tied for 2nd (out of 14 schools) for most A-10 championships.

I put that in bold b/c that was a bit of an anomaly and I may never be able to say that again! :)

Still, over the past 10 years or so, the Rams have been steady throughout. In that time the women’s basketball has won the A-10 twice and has made it to the W-NIT about 4 or 5 other times. Baseball had been through a long down spell but bounced back to win the A-10 last year. They have a good shot at repeating this year, if there is a this year. Softball is currently struggling a bit but has made it to the NCAA tournament 9 out of the past 10 years. No team in the Northeast (not from any conference) can come close to saying that. Men’s soccer has had its ups and down but one of the ups was making it to the Elite 8 of the 2017 NCAA tournament. Of the bunch, women’s soccer is the only sport to have never made the NCAA’s. Still they did reach the A-10 Finals three times between 2006 and 2015 and w/everyone expected back next fall, should be one of the league favorites in 2020. We’ll see come September (alma mater will eventually reopen, right?) but either way its already been proven that Fordham can compete in any A-10 sport. Any sport but one that is.

So no need to relegate all athletic teams into the PL or CAA just b/c the men’s hoops has sucked for a quarter of century. Again, I’d prefer dropping men’s basketball entirely (hey, its almost there anyway) than bringing down all the other programs.

But to answer your question - No. No Ram grad under the age of 35 really values playing Dayton over American. But that’s only because no Ram grad under the age of 35 really values men’s hoops. Compared to football it’s shocking to see how much older & crustier the hardwood crowd is.

Seriously, when Fordham football is winning, JCF is a party. Ironically the party was at its absolute biggest when it went off campus. After a Yankee Stadium win over Cross in 2016 Jerome Avenue seriously looked like Bourbon Street. It was all shades of loco and I know b/c I was there.

But even on those rare occasions when men's basketball is kinda good, like during Bryant Dunston years, RHG is still filled w/grumpy old white guys still talking about Charile Yelverton while being drowned out by too many visiting fans. Particularly when Dayton or the Bonnies are in town. It's beyond depressing and I know b/c I've been there.



For what it's worth (not much), Fordham's record in men's basketball since joining the A-10 is 237-494. That's a .324 winning percentage, by far the lowest in the conference. Be careful what you wish for ...

Yeah that's horrific but lemme edit my post and reply to show that Fordham’s conference record in men’s in basketball has been even worse than that. Since joining the A-10 (starting w/the 1995-96 season) the conference record is 102-310. That’s a .249 winning percentage, by far the lowest in the conference. Second worst is Duquesne (whose A-10 history goes back to the 1970s) well over 100 % points better w/a current tally of 251-434. So yeah, Fordham has the lowest winning percentage by far. By very far to be more accurate!

In fact, the only team from any “major" conference in the entire country to be almost as bad as Fordham has been DePaul.

Coincidentally things started going south for the Lincoln Parkers in 1995-96 too. That’s the year they jumped up to the C-USA from the imploded Great Midwest. Oh and this was back when the C-USA looked more like today’s American. The Blue Demons were bad there and then only got much, much worse upon joining the Big East. Since the 1995-96 season they're 106-286 in (combined) conference play. Fewer games than Fordham but that’s because the old C-USA and the new Big East have fewer teams than the A-10. Either way they’ve been horrific too and it’s kinda funny that both schools can trace their respective downturns to the 1995-96 season. Also kinda funny that if the hoops season has already ended, both Fordham & DePaul went out w/wins last night!

[DFW HOYA]

There's very little to compare between Fordham and DePaul basketball outside of continued incompetence.

From 1948 to 1972, DePaul was the winningest Catholic basketball program in the nation--more than Notre Dame, San Francisco, or any of the Eastern Colleges. The Blue Demons were a top 5 team as late as the 1984-85 season, and Joey Meyer continued the run until DePaul joined Conference USA. Firing Meyer severed a line of DePaul tradition dating to 1942 and they've never recovered.

[Sader87]

Not discounting cutting the "Meyer coaching" tradition for DePaul with its subsequent decline, but it was more from not being in a Power conference for years that led to its overall decline imo.

Tying this into the PL, DePaul's hoop decline is sort of like Holy Cross's hoop decline since declining a Big East invitation in 1979. Not at the lofty heights of DePaul's Top 5 rankings in the late 1970s but Holy Cross was ranked in the Top 20 somewhat regularly as late as 1978....since then, maybe only a couple of occasions have they received "also received votes" post 1980.

[TheValleyRaider]

I realize it's not Catholic school basketball, but there is actual football news: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2020/3/13/football-raiders-announce-fb-staff-changes.aspx


HAMILTON – Colgate head coach Dan Hunt (https://gocolgateraiders.com/coaches.aspx?rc=1605) announced a number of changes and promotions to his assistant coaching staff.

Hunt this month welcomed Jason Houghtaling to the position of assistant coach for the offensive line and has promoted Brent Bassham (https://gocolgateraiders.com/coaches.aspx?rc=1611) to co-offensive coordinator and Jordan Belfiori (https://gocolgateraiders.com/coaches.aspx?rc=1620) to recruiting coordinator.

Per Hunt, there is another hire to come

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'd prefer dropping men’s basketball entirely (hey, its almost there anyway) than bringing in a scumbag like Pitino.



Aside from men’s hoops Fordham competes well in the A-10. During the last academic year, Fordham finished tied for 2nd (out of 14 schools) for most A-10 championships.

I put that in bold b/c that was a bit of an anomaly and I may never be able to say that again! :)

Still, over the past 10 years or so, the Rams have been steady throughout. In that time the women’s basketball has won the A-10 twice and has made it to the W-NIT about 4 or 5 other times. Baseball had been through a long down spell but bounced back to win the A-10 last year. They have a good shot at repeating this year, if there is a this year. Softball is currently struggling a bit but has made it to the NCAA tournament 9 out of the past 10 years. No team in the Northeast (not from any conference) can come close to saying that. Men’s soccer has had its ups and down but one of the ups was making it to the Elite 8 of the 2017 NCAA tournament. Of the bunch, women’s soccer is the only sport to have never made the NCAA’s. Still they did reach the A-10 Finals three times between 2006 and 2015 and w/everyone expected back next fall, should be one of the league favorites in 2020. We’ll see come September (alma mater will eventually reopen, right?) but either way its already been proven that Fordham can compete in any A-10 sport. Any sport but one that is.

So no need to relegate all athletic teams into the PL or CAA just b/c the men’s hoops has sucked for a quarter of century. Again, I’d prefer dropping men’s basketball entirely (hey, its almost there anyway) than bringing down all the other programs.

But to answer your question - No. No Ram grad under the age of 35 really values playing Dayton over American. But that’s only because no Ram grad under the age of 35 really values men’s hoops. Compared to football it’s shocking to see how much older & crustier the hardwood crowd is.



Fordham is a member of the Atlantic 10 BECAUSE of Men's Basketball, not because it's the conference that best fits the overall athletic portfolio of Fordham. Aside from M/W Hoops and maybe baseball because of the southern schools, the Patriot League is probably just as strong an athletic conference, if not better in some sports, as the A-10. Army, Navy, Bucknell, Loyola and BU specifically tend to be VERY GOOD at the Olympic sports. Not to mention, the PL is a terrific lacrosse conference if Fordham ever wanted to consider launching a program.

A Fordham move from full A-10 membership to full PL membership would not be a "relegation" for most of the athletic department.

[DFW HOYA]

To keep the conversation on basketball before we inevitably return to the amber that is PL Football, this (only) half-joking suggestion: trade Fordham for Holy Cross.

Fordham moves to the PL for all sports. Alumni complain, rightfully, that it is a step down for the Fordham tradition, but when the Rams actually win a conference title for once, people feel better. (The Rams have one NCAA bid since 1971, which was their PL title in 1992. And since 1992, they haven't even made the NIT.) Fordham trades far-flung series with St. Louis and Dayton for bus trips to Army and Colgate, and the rest of the league saves a trip to Worcester for other sports.

Holy Cross gets UMass and URI and a chance for its basketball program to sink or swim with a conference that gets multiple NCAA bids but is not, as the late John Brooks would call it, "the entertainment business". There are six other Catholic schools in the A-10 (three Jesuit) to whom HC could rally around and the Crusaders could assume a Davidson-like role as giant-killers if they make the tournament.

[Sader87]

Interesting but would never happen for a host of reasons obviously.

TPTB at HC want the PL model....it has pretty much transformed the school, it's enrollment anyway....roughly a 1/4 of HC students play a varsity sport today.....mostly poorly, but that is an HC attraction now: "Come to HC and play D1 athletics."

[Fordham]

The few rabid Fordham hoops fans left have a variety of opinions but I do think there's a consensus you'd hear that there's no allure of possible titles by dropping to the PL. If we're going to drop it will be because we have decided to cut our budget and de-emphasize whatever little emphasis there already is. Our athletic leadership is so inept and the commitment to success so lacking that we would drop down and immediately become a middling to awful PL program as well so NO ONE expects a PL title if we move and the same leadership is in charge. Most of those fans feel that they've waited for the last 20+ years for us to do SOMETHING in the A10 that we may as well wait out Father McShane and Dave Roach's tenures and see what the next regime brings before we drop down. Dropping down seems like it will always be an option - likely in the PL but, if not, somewhere else. Moving up, though, is not.

It's not faulty logic and it's also not one based in some idea that Fordham is better in any way than PL schools athletically or whatever other delusional arguments are assigned to Fordham fans. We do have some nuts, no doubt, but the majority of those I know follow what I wrote above.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The few rabid Fordham hoops fans left have a variety of opinions but I do think there's a consensus you'd hear that there's no allure of possible titles by dropping to the PL. If we're going to drop it will be because we have decided to cut our budget and de-emphasize whatever little emphasis there already is. Our athletic leadership is so inept and the commitment to success so lacking that we would drop down and immediately become a middling to awful PL program as well so NO ONE expects a PL title if we move and the same leadership is in charge. Most of those fans feel that they've waited for the last 20+ years for us to do SOMETHING in the A10 that we may as well wait out Father McShane and Dave Roach's tenures and see what the next regime brings before we drop down. Dropping down seems like it will always be an option - likely in the PL but, if not, somewhere else. Moving up, though, is not.

It's not faulty logic and it's also not one based in some idea that Fordham is better in any way than PL schools athletically or whatever other delusional arguments are assigned to Fordham fans. We do have some nuts, no doubt, but the majority of those I know follow what I wrote above.

No offense but Fordham already would've been a middling to awful PL program during many of the A-10 years. Moving to the Patriot League would allow the possibility of shedding the culture of year-after-year losing. With no disrespect intended towards the Men's Basketball rosters past or present, in many cases Fordham would be recruiting a different type of student-athlete. They would be matching with the player looking for the best student-athlete situation not just the best basketball situation. Many of those in this latter group, like Eric Paschall and Jio Fontan, have not stayed long in The Bronx. Like Boogie Down posted, most young Fordham alum are so numb to the losing that the allure of being in the same league as Dayton and St. Louis isn't even there. I actually bet a lot of the under-35 crowd would identify Holy Cross is the school's primary rival if asked -- the football game always is a big draw even when teams are mediocre or weather is cold. May I add that three of the top ten all-time crowds at Rose Hill Gym were Fordham-Holy Cross games. Perhaps Fordham could bring Fairfield along and allow the creation of a "core" of basketball schools alongside Holy Cross, Bucknell and maybe Colgate if they build on recent winning. Lafayette has a decent hoops following too for a small school with a so-so track record of winning. The PL, IMO, is a much more enjoyable football conference to follow. Basketball is a bit of a wasteland -- crowds in the 800's at Army, Loyola, American, BU and Lehigh (+ Colgate historically).

[NY Crusader 2010]

Interesting but would never happen for a host of reasons obviously.

TPTB at HC want the PL model....it has pretty much transformed the school, it's enrollment anyway....roughly a 1/4 of HC students play a varsity sport today.....mostly poorly, but that is an HC attraction now: "Come to HC and play D1 athletics."

Hence why DFW said he was half-joking. I actually think HC would be more likely today to accept an A-10 invite than the A-10 would be to consider HC as a member. But, it's not happening anytime soon.

Here's the scenario I would like to see:

Fordham and Fairfield join the Patriot League replacing American, who goes back to the CAA, and Boston University, who goes back to the America East alongside many of it's traditional hockey rivals.

[Fordham]

No offense but Fordham already would've been a middling to awful PL program during many of the A-10 years. Moving to the Patriot League would allow the possibility of shedding the culture of year-after-year losing. With no disrespect intended towards the Men's Basketball rosters past or present, in many cases Fordham would be recruiting a different type of student-athlete. They would be matching with the player looking for the best student-athlete situation not just the best basketball situation. Many of those in this latter group, like Eric Paschall and Jio Fontan, have not stayed long in The Bronx. Like Boogie Down posted, most young Fordham alum are so numb to the losing that the allure of being in the same league as Dayton and St. Louis isn't even there. I actually bet a lot of the under-35 crowd would identify Holy Cross is the school's primary rival if asked -- the football game always is a big draw even when teams are mediocre or weather is cold. May I add that three of the top ten all-time crowds at Rose Hill Gym were Fordham-Holy Cross games. Perhaps Fordham could bring Fairfield along and allow the creation of a "core" of basketball schools alongside Holy Cross, Bucknell and maybe Colgate if they build on recent winning. Lafayette has a decent hoops following too for a small school with a so-so track record of winning. The PL, IMO, is a much more enjoyable football conference to follow. Basketball is a bit of a wasteland -- crowds in the 800's at Army, Loyola, American, BU and Lehigh (+ Colgate historically).
note that my response was pointed strictly at DFW's line "but when the Rams actually win a conference title for once, people feel better." Please read my post again - there's nothing but harsh judgment for the administration. It's been total ineptitude and we wouldn't just be a middling PL program we would be a middling D3 program if we moved down. What few die hards remain are mostly guys who saw various levels of success from the 70's through '92. No one else cares. Can you blame for saying that they've waited for almost 30 years for some sign that we can compete at this level that they're willing to wait it out to see what the next admin does?

Otherwise, for me personally, I'd love to see us in all sports with HC someplace but I was also always very good with having all sports in the PL too so a bit of an outlier in a fanbase where the largest segment is 'who cares either way?'

[DFW HOYA]

The above post was not meant as a knock against the Fordham fan base--yes, a conference title would help, but it does not solve a problem that, to those on the outside, seems puzzling.

Reading the Fordham message boards over the years and the numerous comments regarding the administration of Frank McLauhglin and Jeff Gray is one thing, but leadership starts at the top--the Finlay, O'Hare and McShane administrations are guilty of more than benign neglect, and it's not clear why. Surely they see the relative success enjoyed by nearly every other Jesuit school over the years in basketball, but seem utterly disinterested in raising Fordham's visibility in this area. The school's selection of head coaches since Tom Penders - Bob Hill, Dereck Wittenburg, Tom Pecora, Jeff Neubauer - have all failed to move the needle.

Has there been any heat from the Wall Street donors for McShane to fix this mess? It's not enough to wait for him to retire.

[Fordham]

Not sure what's so puzzling about a leadership group that has been so remarkably consistent? It is what it is. The Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission.

The only thing I would push back on is the Fr. Finlay inclusion. In fact, any Fordham fan or student would trade off any of the last 30 years for any stretch of the 70's and 80's (through '92)!

[DFW HOYA]

The Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission.

Education and intercollegiate athletics are not mutually exclusive, particularly to those schools that have figured out to use it to their benefit. I'm sure the Jesuits at Gonzaga or Xavier or Creighton have a mission to educate and are doing it quite well, too.

Maybe the larger issue is the day when the Jesuits won't be at Fordham and at most of its other schools. What then? Georgetown Prep, which shares by its birthright the title of the oldest Catholic school in the nation, has just three Jesuits left on its staff.

Otherwise, hoping for some football talk before too long. The PL social media outfit appears to be in dry dock TFN.

[ngineer]

Lehigh announced 6 more additions to it's 2020 roster covering both sides of the ball. I am assuming most if not all of them will be walk-ons. No question that Gilmore has addressed the need for improved numbers considering the thin roster he had to deal with last year. We can only hope there will be season next fall.

[ngineer]

Education and intercollegiate athletics are not mutually exclusive, particularly to those schools that have figured out to use it to their benefit. I'm sure the Jesuits at Gonzaga or Xavier or Creighton have a mission to educate and are doing it quite well, too.

Maybe the larger issue is the day when the Jesuits won't be at Fordham and at most of its other schools. What then? Georgetown Prep, which shares by its birthright the title of the oldest Catholic school in the nation, has just three Jesuits left on its staff.

Otherwise, hoping for some football talk before too long. The PL social media outfit appears to be in dry dock TFN.

I've always been impressed with the Jesuits and their focus on education and social justice for all. I went to law school at the University of Detroit, a Jesuit institution. I saw the history of their football program that was a national power 100 years ago, had died in 1964, so basketball became king. Dick Vitale was the head coach while I was there. Watching him and Al McGuire (Marquette) go at it was fun. They have not instituted lacrosse, with a new stadium where the old football stadium once stood. There was talk a few years ago of resurrecting football all at a lower level, but I doubt, at this time, such an experiment will occur.

[The Boogie Down]

Education and intercollegiate athletics are not mutually exclusive, particularly to those schools that have figured out to use it to their benefit. I'm sure the Jesuits at Gonzaga or Xavier or Creighton have a mission to educate and are doing it quite well, too.

Gonzaga, Xavier and Creighton have all done well in the classroom & on the hardwood but it’s not like they’re going to be confused w/UNC, UCLA, or any other deep-pocketed P-5 state program anytime soon. For all the fanfare Gonzaga, Xavier and Creighton have still only combined for 1 (one!) Final Four appearance between them. That’s despite the great advantages each enjoy by being big fish in small ponds. Not quite a fair comparison for Fordham, floating around (belly up?) in the biggest of all oceans.

A fairer comparison would be Georgetown and Marquette, two Jesuit schools that have won national chips and have gained national followings in the process. Despite both being in pro towns too. That said, what did Marquette ever do before Al McGuire got there? What did Georgetown ever do before John Thompson? Neither program was as good as Fordham’s before those arrivals. And by coincidence, Fordham also hired a young, future Hall of Fame coach during that same late '60s/early '70s era as well. Problem was, he decided to be a future Hall of Famer at Notre Dame instead.

So, Fordham never got to be as "big time" as Georgetown and Marquette. Neither has any other Jesuit school, including Gonzaga, Xavier and Creighton. In fact, most (b/c they play outside of D-I or at a low level D-I) never will. But as long as Fordham is in the A-10 there’s always the chance of catching lightning in a bottle and making a Loyola-Chicago type run. In fact, just on conference affiliation alone, Fordham probably has a better shot at getting on the main stage than even former “big time” Jesuit programs like San Francisco and Seattle.

Personally, I doubt it ever happens. Duh! But,,, look at where Loyola was just a few years ago. Worse than Fordham. In fact, from 1990-2014 the Ramblers experienced just four winning seasons and qualified into zero post-season tournaments. 11 of those 25 seasons saw them lose at least 19 games. And except for the last year of that run, all those seasons took place from within the Horizon League, which for all intent and purpose, wasn't much more than the NEC after the bigger schools all skipped town.

So Fordham did not get to be a big fish in a small pond or get a Hall of Fame program builder to stick around like some other Jesuit schools. But the potential is always there. Al McGuire even once called Fordham a “Sleeping Giant.” Not sure if comas qualify as sleep but he did say that prior to Fordham’s entry into the A-10.

To bring this back to football and the initial comparison, I doubt any National Championship winning gridiron coach, even at the FCS level, would ever call Georgetown football a sleeping giant.

-------

RIP Reverend Joseph A. O’Hare SJ, 1931-2020.

He was the 31st president of Fordham (1984-2003) and the man who finally brought Fordham football back to D-I (albeit I-AA) status. He rebuilt JCF from a set of wooden stands; brought in some key women’s sports to the fold, including soccer and softball; moved Fordham to the A-10 where, except for men’s basketball most sports have done well and he ushered in the first of many much needed renovations to HRHG. Off the field/court he helped build a world class library and finally started raising some money to build on what had previously been a piss poor endowment. On top of that he was a strong, tough, no-non sense leader that deep inside had a gentle soul. Apparently he had been sick for several months now so his loss comes as no surprise to anyone who closely knew him but he’ll still be greatly missed.

[ngineer]

RIP Fr. Joe! He did kickstart Fordham's rejuvenation.

[RichH2]

The final count for Lehigh WOs is 10 added to the roster.
2 OL
2 WR
2 K
LS
QB
RB
LB

[DFW HOYA]

To bring this back to football and the initial comparison, I doubt any National Championship winning gridiron coach, even at the FCS level, would ever call Georgetown football a sleeping giant.

Neither won a championship, but Pete Lembo definitely called Georgetown a sleeping giant and Dick Biddle may have, but I am not sure of the time and occasion.

So how is this defined? The etymology of the phrase suggests "one that has great but unrealized or newly emerging power." Sometimes it's justified, sometimes not. In 1979, Big East co-founder Dave Gavitt lobbied the Catholic schools of the Big East to admit the University of Connecticut as a "sleeping giant". Few gave the Yankee Conference school (where cows grazed alongside the campus) much of a shot, but Gavitt's vision was confirmed. Conversely, others have called Rutgers a sleeping giant and they still slumber up at Old Queens.

Excepting the Ivies, Georgetown is one of about a half-dozen schools with a name recognition that extends nationally. Rob Sgarlata could walk into any home in America and recruits would know where he's from. Were it not for the arcane recruiting rules of the Patriot League, he could actually recruit them. But a sleeping giant does little good if they do not stand up on their own two feet, and Georgetown takes some small comfort that the PL asks so little of them. While the post above notes that "the Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission", the folks at Georgetown [the Jesuits left the building 20 years ago] don't want to risk having a football team that gets out of its control or complicates its mission...with basketball.

Were that the alumni base could see what it would be like if Georgetown could actually compete outside the gilded cage of the PFL & Ivy, maybe the city of Washington might see in college football what they saw in Georgetown basketball in the 70's and 80's--namely, a local team worth rallying around.

[PAllen]

Neither won a championship, but Pete Lembo definitely called Georgetown a sleeping giant and Dick Biddle may have, but I am not sure of the time and occasion.

So how is this defined? The etymology of the phrase suggests "one that has great but unrealized or newly emerging power." Sometimes it's justified, sometimes not. In 1979, Big East co-founder Dave Gavitt lobbied the Catholic schools of the Big East to admit the University of Connecticut as a "sleeping giant". Few gave the Yankee Conference school (where cows grazed alongside the campus) much of a shot, but Gavitt's vision was confirmed. Conversely, others have called Rutgers a sleeping giant and they still slumber up at Old Queens.

Excepting the Ivies, Georgetown is one of about a half-dozen schools with a name recognition that extends nationally. Rob Sgarlata could walk into any home in America and recruits would know where he's from. Were it not for the arcane recruiting rules of the Patriot League, he could actually recruit them. But a sleeping giant does little good if they do not stand up on their own two feet, and Georgetown takes some small comfort that the PL asks so little of them. While the post above notes that "the Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission", the folks at Georgetown [the Jesuits left the building 20 years ago] don't want to risk having a football team that gets out of its control or complicates its mission...with basketball.

Were that the alumni base could see what it would be like if Georgetown could actually compete outside the gilded cage of the PFL & Ivy, maybe the city of Washington might see in college football what they saw in Georgetown basketball in the 70's and 80's--namely, a local team worth rallying around.

A 60+ scholarship Georgetown with a large on campus stadium (or near campus, maybe across the river) built with room to grow would be a near immediate force at this level and could easily grow to Stanford like prominence.

[cx500d]

Neither won a championship, but Pete Lembo definitely called Georgetown a sleeping giant and Dick Biddle may have, but I am not sure of the time and occasion.

So how is this defined? The etymology of the phrase suggests "one that has great but unrealized or newly emerging power." Sometimes it's justified, sometimes not. In 1979, Big East co-founder Dave Gavitt lobbied the Catholic schools of the Big East to admit the University of Connecticut as a "sleeping giant". Few gave the Yankee Conference school (where cows grazed alongside the campus) much of a shot, but Gavitt's vision was confirmed. Conversely, others have called Rutgers a sleeping giant and they still slumber up at Old Queens.

Excepting the Ivies, Georgetown is one of about a half-dozen schools with a name recognition that extends nationally. Rob Sgarlata could walk into any home in America and recruits would know where he's from. Were it not for the arcane recruiting rules of the Patriot League, he could actually recruit them. But a sleeping giant does little good if they do not stand up on their own two feet, and Georgetown takes some small comfort that the PL asks so little of them. While the post above notes that "the Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission", the folks at Georgetown [the Jesuits left the building 20 years ago] don't want to risk having a football team that gets out of its control or complicates its mission...with basketball.

Were that the alumni base could see what it would be like if Georgetown could actually compete outside the gilded cage of the PFL & Ivy, maybe the city of Washington might see in college football what they saw in Georgetown basketball in the 70's and 80's--namely, a local team worth rallying around.

But we have Howard!

[ngineer]

But we have Howard!

Didn't Frank play for the Senators back in the 1960's??? xsmiley_wix

[DFW HOYA]

But we have Howard!

Howard's 2019 home attendance looks weak even by PL standards: 3,829. Its Homecoming game accounted for half the total.

The Bison open with five straight on the road. Its first home game this year is Oct. 17.

[NY Crusader 2010]

A 60+ scholarship Georgetown with a large on campus stadium (or near campus, maybe across the river) built with room to grow would be a near immediate force at this level and could easily grow to Stanford like prominence.

Stop. I agree with you on the "immediate force at this level with 60 scholarships" part.

[DFW HOYA]

The Stanford analogy is certainly aspirational, but consider this:

1. Stanford will never win the national championship, but that doesn't mean that they're not fielding a solid team every year.
2. Stanford has the highest academic standards in their conference, but they still compete week in and week out..
3. Stanford's coaching staff is well respected and they develop players that can continue football after college.
4. Stanford alumni are loyal and generous to support their sport.

Nothing wrong with those four.

[The Boogie Down]

Neither won a championship, but Pete Lembo definitely called Georgetown a sleeping giant and Dick Biddle may have, but I am not sure of the time and occasion.

So how is this defined? The etymology of the phrase suggests "one that has great but unrealized or newly emerging power." Sometimes it's justified, sometimes not. In 1979, Big East co-founder Dave Gavitt lobbied the Catholic schools of the Big East to admit the University of Connecticut as a "sleeping giant". Few gave the Yankee Conference school (where cows grazed alongside the campus) much of a shot, but Gavitt's vision was confirmed. Conversely, others have called Rutgers a sleeping giant and they still slumber up at Old Queens.

Excepting the Ivies, Georgetown is one of about a half-dozen schools with a name recognition that extends nationally. Rob Sgarlata could walk into any home in America and recruits would know where he's from. Were it not for the arcane recruiting rules of the Patriot League, he could actually recruit them. But a sleeping giant does little good if they do not stand up on their own two feet, and Georgetown takes some small comfort that the PL asks so little of them. While the post above notes that "the Jesuits at Fordham view it as their mission to educate and don't want to risk having an Athletic Dept that gets out of its control or complicates that mission", the folks at Georgetown [the Jesuits left the building 20 years ago] don't want to risk having a football team that gets out of its control or complicates its mission...with basketball.

Were that the alumni base could see what it would be like if Georgetown could actually compete outside the gilded cage of the PFL & Ivy, maybe the city of Washington might see in college football what they saw in Georgetown basketball in the 70's and 80's--namely, a local team worth rallying around.

Like many of your other posts, I sincelrely think this is a good read. Especially questioning the point of any "sleeping giant" if, like the Queensmen, they never get woke. OTOH, I still respectfully disagree with most of it.

Comparing Pete Lembo to Al McGuire in any capacity is a bit (and by "bit" I mean a WHOLE lot) of a stretch. And that comes from someone who respects the hell outta Lembo. He always beat Clawson in the PL and usually beat him in the MAC too. Absolutely criminal that Dave Roach picked Sleepy Joe Conlin over Pistol Pete. Either way, Lembo did come to Rose Hill instead of his alma mater looking for a gig. Shows you how much of a "sleeping giant” he really thinks Georgetown is.

Even forgetting the slumber part, you really hafta go back to 1950 to put Georgetown in any "giant" category. Sure, the facilities are finally getting better, but still not all that great when compared to the rest of the PL, let alone FCS. Not to mention a non existent fan base, lack of administration support, or any football culture.

Hate to knock the Hoyas this much but I just don’t see it happening in football. Why would the non-Jebbies running Georgetown take their eyes off an expensive hoops program to instead build up a sport that the Big East (famously!) no longer sponsors? Especially w/other non-revenue sports (like baseball as you’ve pointed out) in need of attention.

Back to the original comparison, I’m not saying a Fordham run into the NCAA Final Four (or even the Elite Eight) will ever happen. But Loyola is proof that a previously horrific cage program, and clear second potato in their own town, can suddenly flip the script and make it happen. I don’t see a similar comparison that Georgetown football can point to.

I can’t even fully agree with the part about Georgetown’s name recognition. Yeah, smart kids know Georgetown. Hoop fans/players know Georgetown. But football fans/players? Do they even know Georgetown has a team?

To be fair, they don't know much about Fordham football either. I remember comedian (and former Washington Huskies safety) Joel McHale on College Game Day being asked to pick between Fordham and Holy Cross. His answer was “Huh? I didn’t even know those teams were actually teams.”


Stop. I agree with you on the "immediate force at this level with 60 scholarships" part.

Huh? I’m not even getting the "immediate force at this level w/60 scholarships" part. Not counting Moorhead’s years, how did 60 skollies suddenly jumpstart ANY other Patsy school? But it would all be different at Georgetown?

Oh and to go back to a previous post...

Not only is A-10 hoops (men's and women's) better than the PL but so is A-10 soccer (men's and women's) and A-10 baseball/softball too. Fordham has been decent to dominant in every one of those sports but one. No need to relegate even if yes, the PL is good at lacrosse (which, despite great attendance numbers, I don't think the A-10 sponsors anyway).

[Bill]

Boogie Down,

I hope all is well...I'm sure DFW can (and will) join in, but I have to ask - where did you see him compare Lembo to Al Mcquire? I saw the sleeping giant comment...heck, I was in the room with him while he has said that before - and I totally agree.
I disagree with you regarding the name recognition of GTown...and a big time football team (like Stanford - of course, don't ask me what league they would be in) could work there.
Anyway, they are a giant compared to the rest of the PL. They have us all beat academically, can slug it out with the Ivy's for students, and only Lehigh is remotely close to a similar size endowment. For me, that's the "Giant" part. They're asleep because they have chosen not to be competitive in many sports - but it's their choice.

[The Boogie Down]

Boogie Down,

I hope all is well...I'm sure DFW can (and will) join in, but I have to ask - where did you see him compare Lembo to Al Mcquire? I saw the sleeping giant comment...heck, I was in the room with him while he has said that before - and I totally agree.
I disagree with you regarding the name recognition of GTown...and a big time football team (like Stanford - of course, don't ask me what league they would be in) could work there.
Anyway, they are a giant compared to the rest of the PL. They have us all beat academically, can slug it out with the Ivy's for students, and only Lehigh is remotely close to a similar size endowment. For me, that's the "Giant" part. They're asleep because they have chosen not to be competitive in many sports - but it's their choice.


Bill, hope all is well for you and for EVERYONE reading this! The only positive I can think of when it comes to "the Rona” is that personally I've been fortunate enough to come back to this site months earlier than I normally would. Let’s all be safe while staying indoors and trading PL banter. Oh and uhm, how much better is that banter when not Lehigh-centric? xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

As for the comparison, I mentioned that McGuire once called Rams basketball a “Sleeping Giant” and DFW responded by stating Lembo made the same assertion towards Hoyas football. Again, I like Lembo a lot but that phrase holds way more (Atlantic) water when coming from the Rockaway’s own, Al McGuire!

To add to that, McGuire was by no means a Fordham guy. He went to St. John’s Prep and the College (it still wasn’t SJU yet) at a time when Fordham was still significant enough to be considered a rival. A full of themselves rival to be more exact. Years later McGuire even admitted that the only school he ever purposely went out of his way to run the score on was Fordham. Although in fairness, this seemed more of a knock on Hal Wissel, who apparently also came off as a bit full of himself, than Fordham itself. Either way, McGuire did show Fordham lots of love when the Rams were trying to get into the A-10 so for that he gets my props. Wish he could see all the hipsters overrunning the Irish Riviera now!

As for the “giant” part, yes, Georgetown is one when talking about academics, endowment, student population and real estate too. But so is the University of Chicago. Far more so actually. And yet I doubt Chicago is leaving D-III for a return to the B1G anytime soon. I also doubt any football recruit of significance has ever even heard of Alonzo Stagg, Jay Berwanger (whom I just looked up-lol), or even the University of Chicago itself.

Some sleeping giants, like Rutgers, are true head-scratchers. To me at least. But others are asleep because, like Chicago or NYU, there is simply no interest. Not from alumni, not from students, not from outsiders (subway alum types) and most importantly, not from administration. That’s where I see Georgetown. Even w/60 scholarships, and in a better but still small on-campus stadium, who would care? Are there thousands of fans out there ready to make autumn tailgating part of their Saturday morning routine? Are there thousands of fans wanting to beat anyone as badly as Lehigh wants to beat Lafayette? Or, on a much smaller scale, as badly as we on Rose Hill would want to beat Columbia? Where would that FCS-level “football culture" come from?

Maybe some completely unpredictable outside force steps in to shatter conventional wisdom as we know it. Maybe the ACC decides it wants a DC replacement for Maryland. Maybe Georgetown is somehow magically invited back into the big-time! Okay, fine. But would even that suddenly put Georgetown on equal footing w/say, BC and its larger endowment, plus its 45,000 seat on-campus stadium? In the 70 years Georgetown has been out of the big-time, the Jebbies to the north have chugged away continuously. They’ve won way more games than they’ve lost. Regardless of era, venue, conference affiliation, whatever, they’ve always been pretty solid. And yet, for all the winning seasons, they’ve only finished in the Top-10 twice in all that time. Once, famously, w/Flutie. Once, almost anonymously, w/Matty Ice. So, for all their history, for all their commitment to gridiron success, for all the NFL talent to pass through Chestnut Hill, for all the wins, including some famous ones against Notre Dame, BC has still never morphed into a football giant. But Georgetown would be different? How?

Again, don't ever see any of that happening. Not in the small time PL; not in the big time ACC.

Even if my dream would be to bring back the loose football affiliation that 100 years ago once tied BC, Holy Cross, Fordham, Villanova and Georgetown football. Maybe throw in Duquesne as the NCAA mandated 6th team. Whole lotta history there. Like the original Big East when it came to hoops, lotta big markets there too. For me at least, that would be as cool as it gets! xcoolx

[ngineer]

Boogie Down,

I hope all is well...I'm sure DFW can (and will) join in, but I have to ask - where did you see him compare Lembo to Al Mcquire? I saw the sleeping giant comment...heck, I was in the room with him while he has said that before - and I totally agree.
I disagree with you regarding the name recognition of GTown...and a big time football team (like Stanford - of course, don't ask me what league they would be in) could work there.
Anyway, they are a giant compared to the rest of the PL. They have us all beat academically, can slug it out with the Ivy's for students, and only Lehigh is remotely close to a similar size endowment. For me, that's the "Giant" part. They're asleep because they have chosen not to be competitive in many sports - but it's their choice.

Totally agree. I heard Lembo say that, too. But it was a caveat...He said Gtown is a sleeping Giant but will only wake up with the right amount of support. From everything I've read of Gtown's "commitment" to football, the Giant will remain in a coma. They have the tools. Just not the will.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Totally agree. I heard Lembo say that, too. But it was a caveat...He said Gtown is a sleeping Giant but will only wake up with the right amount of support. From everything I've read of Gtown's "commitment" to football, the Giant will remain in a coma. They have the tools. Just not the will.

Sleeping giant on what scale? Sure, there is untapped potential there but the potential comparisons to BC and Stanford referenced in other posts are laughable. As a member of the Patriot League without self-imposed restrictions, Georgetown's ceiling is probably comparable to the upper tier of the Ivy League and they could be a regular PL contender. As a member of FCS without PL restrictions, their ceiling would be comparable to William & Mary or Villanova.

No small Catholic or private school is ever going to be the next FBS program. Pull up a list of all schools that have moved up from FCS to FBS since 2000 and you'll find that NONE have anything in common with Georgetown (Or Fordham. Or Holy Cross. Yes, the topic comes up on our delusional message boards).

If I'm not mistaken, when the ACC raided the Big East in 2012, Georgetown lobbied for membership and were rebuffed. I could be wrong, ask DFW. IF Georgetown ever DID get into that league, I think it would be without football. If the ACC thought replacing Maryland with another in-market football school was that important, they could add Navy as a football-only member. Or they could look themselves in the mirror and realize they already have metro DC covered as about half of the University of Virginia alumni base lives inside the beltway.

[The Boogie Down]

Sleeping giant on what scale? Sure, there is untapped potential there but the potential comparisons to BC and Stanford referenced in other posts are laughable. As a member of the Patriot League without self-imposed restrictions, Georgetown's ceiling is probably comparable to the upper tier of the Patriot League. As a member of FCS without PL restrictions, their ceiling would be comparable to William & Mary or Villanova.

No small Catholic or private school is ever going to be the next FBS program. Pull up a list of all schools that have moved up from FCS to FBS since 2000 and you'll find that NONE have anything in common with Georgetown (Or Fordham. Or Holy Cross. Yes, the topic comes up on our delusional message boards).

If I'm not mistaken, when the ACC raided the Big East in 2012, Georgetown lobbied for membership and were rebuffed. I could be wrong, ask DFW. IF Georgetown ever DID get into that league, I think it would be without football. If the ACC thought replacing Maryland with another in-market football school was that important, they could add Navy as a football-only member. Or they could look themselves in the mirror and realize they already have metro DC covered as about half of the University of Virginia alumni base lives inside the beltway.

Don't know the deets between the ACC/Georgetown (would love to hear 'em tho) but pretty much agree w/the rest. I'd argue that Georgetown has a much higher ceiling in the FBS than other private schools like say, Liberty, but not as high as even Villanova, let alone BC, let alone Stanford, let alone an actual FBS giant like USC/Miami/Notre Dame.

Either way, Happy Easter to everyone who follows! Even if you're holed in like I am, hope everyone is making the most of things! xdrunkyx

[NY Crusader 2010]

Don't know the deets between the ACC/Georgetown (would love to hear 'em tho) but pretty much agree w/the rest. I'd argue that Georgetown has a much higher ceiling in the FBS than other private schools like say, Liberty, but not as high as even Villanova, let alone BC, let alone Stanford, let alone an actual FBS giant like USC/Miami/Notre Dame.

Either way, Happy Easter to everyone who follows! Even if you're holed in like I am, hope everyone is making the most of things! xdrunkyx

Liberty is a much different animal than your typical private university. It is a cult-like religious institution located in a small city where the entire population worships everything having to do with the college. Not looking at the numbers but Liberty basketball probably doesn't lag too far behind Georgetown in home attendance -- and they play in the Atlantic Sun. I remember 15 years ago some high-level official at Liberty was quoted somewhere as saying that he foresaw the day where Liberty would be challenging the likes of Notre Dame, Baylor and BYU on the gridiron. I laughed at that quote. Now Liberty has forced their way into FBS without a conference invite (someone was paid off). Prediction -- Liberty makes it into the AP Top 25 within the next 5 years and has their first major NCAA scandal within the next 10.

Villanova very nearly thrust themselves into FBS football ten years ago when they announced they were joining the Big East. The plan was to play games in the Phailadelphia Union soccer stadium. Thank god for their core of current football followers that this never happened. Would've been a dumpster fire comparable to what we are seeing now at UCONN.

If Georgetown had played major college / I-A / FBS football through the 20th century up to and including Big East (and probably now ACC) membership, their program would probably most closely resemble a cross between Duke, Rice and Temple right now. But given the lack of that "base line" legacy following, I don't see them having anywhere close to a ceiling in the land of FBS. Much different than a commuter school in a medium-sized Sun Belt city with an enrollment of 30,000+ to drum up interest (see UCF, Georgia State, UTSA, etc) or a school that had a rabid following of 15K+ fans / game in FCS for decades (App State, Georgia Southern, Marshall). Put it this way -- if Wake Forest and Rice were in the SoCon and Southland now and were perennial top-10 FCS teams, they would not be candidates to go FBS.

[DFW HOYA]

I'll return to the Georgetown football ceiling later this week but wanted to respond to two claims earlier in the thread:

1. "Liberty basketball probably doesn't lag too far behind Georgetown in home attendance ." Liberty averaged 4,476 per game in 2019-20 men's basketball, for a team with a 30-4 record. Georgetown averaged 7,931 for a team below .500.

2. "If I'm not mistaken, when the ACC raided the Big East in 2012, Georgetown lobbied for membership and were rebuffed." This is not true. While an economic model for ACC football was discussed in some circles (namely, the opportunity cost of 85 scholarships and playing at FedEx Field versus the TV money it would bring as a football member), it was never pursued at the executive level and there would have been no particular ACC interest to begin with given the volume of Virginia Tech alumni which could still support coverage on cable systems in the DC area (mostly Northern Virginia).

There was also a very practical reason it was not pursued. Nearly every stumble over a 15 year period for the Big East was a result of deceptions and outright lies by university presidents. Donna Shalala (Miami), Mark Nordenberg (Pitt) and William Leahy SJ (Boston College) were each negotiating with the ACC while telling their fellow presidents they were unified. Kenneth Shaw, chancellor of Syracuse, went so far as to call Fr. Leahy "a double agent among us."

Georgetown University's role in rebuilding the Big East in 2013 is a remarkable story, but one which required the six other participating schools to maintain absolute trust (and in some cases, absolute stealth) amidst over $100 million at risk, not to mention the role of ESPN in potentially sinking the entire deal. It would have been a mortal blow to the plan if Georgetown was seen trying to negotiate an exit to the ACC while speaking for seven schools that were the odd men out in a proposed 16-18 team Big East that, by 2015, could have variously included SMU, Central Florida, Houston, Memphis, Tulsa, Tulane, San Diego State, Boise State (briefly) BYU (briefly) and TCU (even more briefly).

In the end, the Big East survived and thrives. It welcomes back an old friend in the University of Connecticut this summer. Of the original eight schools that were on board by 1980 (Villanova waited an extra year to leave the Eastern-8), six are back in the conference this July 1.

Granted, some may miss Syracuse. But no one misses BC.

http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/reclaiming_the_birthright.htm

[The Boogie Down]

In the end, the Big East survived and thrives. It welcomes back an old friend in the University of Connecticut this summer. Of the original eight schools that were on board by 1980 (Villanova waited an extra year to leave the Eastern-8), six are back in the conference this July 1.

Granted, some may miss Syracuse. But no one misses BC.

http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/reclaiming_the_birthright.htm


Great read!!! Very long but worth it if interested in a blow-by-blow account of how the Big East came about in the late 1970s, how it managed to finally break free of the football schools in the early 2010s, and everything in between. And there's a whole lot in between! Covers all the backstabbing by former members and ESPN, as well as some front stabs by the ACC too.

For all the changes tho, after the Core-6 (again including UConn), it was all like simply trading Syracuse, Pitt and BC for Marquette, DePaul and Xavier. Throw in Butler & Creighton and that covers all the many-many-many moves since 1979.

Much more detailed in the link above but still not THAT different when compared to some other conferences.

[carney2]

My tea leaves tell me that it is now above a 50% chance that there will be no college football until at least August/September of 2021. Any takers?

[cx500d]

My tea leaves tell me that it is now above a 50% chance that there will be no college football until at least August/September of 2021. Any takers?
yes

[DFW HOYA]

My tea leaves tell me that it is now above a 50% chance that there will be no college football until at least August/September of 2021. Any takers?

We don't know. And if there is no football, there are no colleges in residence either. If students stop going, they'll stop paying, too. What's the future of schools like Lafayette if 200, 400, or more kids simply don't come back?

That's a leap few would take right now.

[Sader87]

http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/reclaiming_the_birthright.htm[/QUOTE]

We coulda been in the Big East.....

[carney2]

We don't know. And if there is no football, there are no colleges in residence either. If students stop going, they'll stop paying, too. What's the future of schools like Lafayette if 200, 400, or more kids simply don't come back?

That's a leap few would take right now.

Valid points. It will be a strange new world.

[The Boogie Down]

Valid points. It will be a strange new world.


http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/reclaiming_the_birthright.htm

We coulda been in the Big East.....


It already is a strange new world. Let's hope we all make it. As for the Big East... Again, great read but if Cross ever wanted to they could easily be in something bigger than the PL. See all the things Fordham did wrong when jumping from the PL to the A-10 and do the opposite. It's not like the Big East ever stops poaching from the A-10 and it's not like the A-10 ever stops finding replacements. Even going forward I doubt this ever changes so the opportunities should still be there for HC.

[RichH2]

Valid points. It will be a strange new world.

I would not be suprised to see families bringing their kids closer to home for college. Could have lots of transfers.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Boogie Down - I'm hoping that HC doesn't make the same mistake as Fordham if the "opportunity" ever arises again -- IMO that ship has sailed. A-10 has no need to expand even if St. Louis and/or Dayton wind up in the Big East ultimately. And if they do, numerous better options exist than the College of the Holy Cross. In 1993 or even 2000 I wouldn't have called Fordham's A-10 move a mistake but after a quarter century of results, we have our answer. I'm hoping you guys make your long lost return to the PL in all sports and bring Fairfield with you.

The only conference affiliation upgrade that makes sense for Holy Cross is for us to do whatever we have to do to get out of Atlantic Hockey and into Hockey East. Other than that, I continue to support and enjoy our membership in the Patriot League.

[DFW HOYA]

Boogie Down - I'm hoping that HC doesn't make the same mistake as Fordham if the "opportunity" ever arises again -- IMO that ship has sailed. A-10 has no need to expand even if St. Louis and/or Dayton wind up in the Big East ultimately. And if they do, numerous better options exist than the College of the Holy Cross. In 1993 or even 2000 I wouldn't have called Fordham's A-10 move a mistake but after a quarter century of results, we have our answer. I'm hoping you guys make your long lost return to the PL in all sports and bring Fairfield with you. The only conference affiliation upgrade that makes sense for Holy Cross is for us to do whatever we have to do to get out of Atlantic Hockey and into Hockey East. Other than that, I continue to support and enjoy our membership in the Patriot League.

The Big East does not need St. Louis or Dayton. It was very happy with 10 but UConn was an offer they could not refuse, not only for the history, but for the fan base and the ability to lock down Madison Square Garden from the predatory tactics of the ACC and Big 10. Short of Syracuse coming back or teams leaving, neither of which is likely at this point, expansion is off the table.

More than any other school in the Northeast, even Rutgers, Holy Cross has fallen the hardest over the past 40 years. Rev. John Brooks may or may not have been powerful enough to decide HC's fate on his own, but as a leader he failed to view athletics as a front door to the academy. He grew up an an era when HC could have legitimately been the #2 Catholic school in the nation behind Notre Dame, the kind of place that would draw an Anthony Fauci to study there because the pull of comprehensive Catholic education was so strong to kids coming from Catholic high schools. There are even stories of that era where some Catholic HS counselors would not even sign off on an application to non-Catholic schools.

And here comes the 1980's, and kids see Georgetown and Boston College and Villanova on TV every week. And where is Holy Cross basketball? Out of sight, and out of mind. A new generation of kids aren't being steered to Catholic colleges, and a top student from Regis could just as easily go to Cornell as to Fordham. A basketball game on TV held no interest to Brooks, because the Catholic intellegentsia would always be coming to Worcester. So Brooks doubles-down on the Colonial/Patriot League as this bulwark against the "entertainment business", except that HC never dominated it as it could have. From 1980-2000, HC earns one NCAA bid and is rarely seen on TV. From 1980-2000, Villanova earns 13 NCAA bids and an NCAA title. Would anyone have predicted in 1980 that a commuter school from Philadelphia would be considered in the top 50 universities in the nation within a generation, with a more selective admissions rate than Holy Cross? What helped them gain the awareness to get there?

This is not to lament that HC "coulda been in the Big East", but it could be something more than where it is right now. Certainly HC would be the best academic school in the A-10 if it had pursued it, and arguably could have been a regular contender had it stayed in the Yankee/A-10/CAA football model after dropping from I-A. That didn't happen. But what is its plan for the future? College sports is due another sea change, if not because of the pandemic but perhaps as a kick-start to it. This is what colleges are slow to realize and the PL as a conference is even slower than most. What worked in 1986 may not work in 2021, anymore what worked in 1947 didn't work in 1982. Some new ideas are needed not just at HC but across this league, but there is safety in inertia.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Big East does not need St. Louis or Dayton. It was very happy with 10 but UConn was an offer they could not refuse, not only for the history, but for the fan base and the ability to lock down Madison Square Garden from the predatory tactics of the ACC and Big 10. Short of Syracuse coming back or teams leaving, neither of which is likely at this point, expansion is off the table.

More than any other school in the Northeast, even Rutgers, Holy Cross has fallen the hardest over the past 40 years. Rev. John Brooks may or may not have been powerful enough to decide HC's fate on his own, but as a leader he failed to view athletics as a front door to the academy. He grew up an an era when HC could have legitimately been the #2 Catholic school in the nation behind Notre Dame, the kind of place that would draw an Anthony Fauci to study there because the pull of comprehensive Catholic education was so strong to kids coming from Catholic high schools. There are even stories of that era where some Catholic HS counselors would not even sign off on an application to non-Catholic schools.

And here comes the 1980's, and kids see Georgetown and Boston College and Villanova on TV every week. And where is Holy Cross basketball? Out of sight, and out of mind. A new generation of kids aren't being steered to Catholic colleges, and a top student from Regis could just as easily go to Cornell as to Fordham. A basketball game on TV held no interest to Brooks, because the Catholic intellegentsia would always be coming to Worcester. So Brooks doubles-down on the Colonial/Patriot League as this bulwark against the "entertainment business", except that HC never dominated it as it could have. From 1980-2000, HC earns one NCAA bid and is rarely seen on TV. From 1980-2000, Villanova earns 13 NCAA bids and an NCAA title. Would anyone have predicted in 1980 that a commuter school from Philadelphia would be considered in the top 50 universities in the nation within a generation, with a more selective admissions rate than Holy Cross? What helped them gain the awareness to get there?

This is not to lament that HC "coulda been in the Big East", but it could be something more than where it is right now. Certainly HC would be the best academic school in the A-10 if it had pursued it, and arguably could have been a regular contender had it stayed in the Yankee/A-10/CAA football model after dropping from I-A. That didn't happen. But what is its plan for the future? College sports is due another sea change, if not because of the pandemic but perhaps as a kick-start to it. This is what colleges are slow to realize and the PL as a conference is even slower than most. What worked in 1986 may not work in 2021, anymore what worked in 1947 didn't work in 1982. Some new ideas are needed not just at HC but across this league, but there is safety in inertia.

Completely agree. No financial incentive right now for the league to expand. If the Big East WERE to add a 12th member, my guess is that St. Louis University would be the most obvious option given its presence in a "major league" non-NBA market.

My HS would not allow students to apply to non-Catholic colleges until at least the 1970's. Times were different then as far as college tuition was concerned.

Holy Cross' ceiling as far as football and basketball is concerned would be the CAA. That being said, if we approached the CAA today regarding all-sports membership, I'm not convinced we would be considered a top candidate for entry. America East membership and CAA football affiliation would be a possibility IMO, if we were interested. From what I've been told by athletic admin at HC, we essentially have an "open invite" to the MAAC (no thanks).

[Fordham]

The Big East does not need St. Louis or Dayton. It was very happy with 10 but UConn was an offer they could not refuse, not only for the history, but for the fan base and the ability to lock down Madison Square Garden from the predatory tactics of the ACC and Big 10. Short of Syracuse coming back or teams leaving, neither of which is likely at this point, expansion is off the table.

More than any other school in the Northeast, even Rutgers, Holy Cross has fallen the hardest over the past 40 years. Rev. John Brooks may or may not have been powerful enough to decide HC's fate on his own, but as a leader he failed to view athletics as a front door to the academy. He grew up an an era when HC could have legitimately been the #2 Catholic school in the nation behind Notre Dame, the kind of place that would draw an Anthony Fauci to study there because the pull of comprehensive Catholic education was so strong to kids coming from Catholic high schools. There are even stories of that era where some Catholic HS counselors would not even sign off on an application to non-Catholic schools.

And here comes the 1980's, and kids see Georgetown and Boston College and Villanova on TV every week. And where is Holy Cross basketball? Out of sight, and out of mind. A new generation of kids aren't being steered to Catholic colleges, and a top student from Regis could just as easily go to Cornell as to Fordham. A basketball game on TV held no interest to Brooks, because the Catholic intellegentsia would always be coming to Worcester. So Brooks doubles-down on the Colonial/Patriot League as this bulwark against the "entertainment business", except that HC never dominated it as it could have. From 1980-2000, HC earns one NCAA bid and is rarely seen on TV. From 1980-2000, Villanova earns 13 NCAA bids and an NCAA title. Would anyone have predicted in 1980 that a commuter school from Philadelphia would be considered in the top 50 universities in the nation within a generation, with a more selective admissions rate than Holy Cross? What helped them gain the awareness to get there?

This is not to lament that HC "coulda been in the Big East", but it could be something more than where it is right now. Certainly HC would be the best academic school in the A-10 if it had pursued it, and arguably could have been a regular contender had it stayed in the Yankee/A-10/CAA football model after dropping from I-A. That didn't happen. But what is its plan for the future? College sports is due another sea change, if not because of the pandemic but perhaps as a kick-start to it. This is what colleges are slow to realize and the PL as a conference is even slower than most. What worked in 1986 may not work in 2021, anymore what worked in 1947 didn't work in 1982. Some new ideas are needed not just at HC but across this league, but there is safety in inertia.
well put overall imo ... particularly the rise of Nova paragraph although I do think they would take Dayton in a heartbeat. Great program and back to a natural conference rivalry with Xavier.

So where does all this lead now, though? I agree that college sports is due for another sea change but to what? And is it possible in the short term that the PL's inertia may be a plus for the first time in 30+ years?

[RichH2]

Excellent take Fordham. PL inertia.it may well be ,if not a big plus, no longer a policy defect. :)
What the future will hold is mostly speculation now.It will not be the same.Money will be a major issue for most PL football programs as well as other sports. Perhaps by June we may see some decisions on next year. Testing tracing and serological testing will be key for any football.

[Go Green]

http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/reclaiming_the_birthright.htm

We coulda been in the Big East.....[/QUOTE]

If you want the academic scholarship assessing the decision, someone wrote a whole paper on the topic.

file:///C:/Users/jfsta/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/7583-Article%20Text-24032-1-10-20190920%20(1).pdf

If the link doesn't work, just google "Declining the Big East: A Case Study of the College of the Holy Cross"

[Sader87]

Thanks....but sadly have already read a couple of times ovah the years....

[The Boogie Down]

The Big East does not need St. Louis or Dayton. It was very happy with 10 but UConn was an offer they could not refuse, not only for the history, but for the fan base and the ability to lock down Madison Square Garden from the predatory tactics of the ACC and Big 10. Short of Syracuse coming back or teams leaving, neither of which is likely at this point, expansion is off the table.

More than any other school in the Northeast, even Rutgers, Holy Cross has fallen the hardest over the past 40 years. Rev. John Brooks may or may not have been powerful enough to decide HC's fate on his own, but as a leader he failed to view athletics as a front door to the academy. He grew up an an era when HC could have legitimately been the #2 Catholic school in the nation behind Notre Dame, the kind of place that would draw an Anthony Fauci to study there because the pull of comprehensive Catholic education was so strong to kids coming from Catholic high schools. There are even stories of that era where some Catholic HS counselors would not even sign off on an application to non-Catholic schools.

And here comes the 1980's, and kids see Georgetown and Boston College and Villanova on TV every week. And where is Holy Cross basketball? Out of sight, and out of mind. A new generation of kids aren't being steered to Catholic colleges, and a top student from Regis could just as easily go to Cornell as to Fordham. A basketball game on TV held no interest to Brooks, because the Catholic intellegentsia would always be coming to Worcester. So Brooks doubles-down on the Colonial/Patriot League as this bulwark against the "entertainment business", except that HC never dominated it as it could have. From 1980-2000, HC earns one NCAA bid and is rarely seen on TV. From 1980-2000, Villanova earns 13 NCAA bids and an NCAA title. Would anyone have predicted in 1980 that a commuter school from Philadelphia would be considered in the top 50 universities in the nation within a generation, with a more selective admissions rate than Holy Cross? What helped them gain the awareness to get there?

This is not to lament that HC "coulda been in the Big East", but it could be something more than where it is right now. Certainly HC would be the best academic school in the A-10 if it had pursued it, and arguably could have been a regular contender had it stayed in the Yankee/A-10/CAA football model after dropping from I-A. That didn't happen. But what is its plan for the future? College sports is due another sea change, if not because of the pandemic but perhaps as a kick-start to it. This is what colleges are slow to realize and the PL as a conference is even slower than most. What worked in 1986 may not work in 2021, anymore what worked in 1947 didn't work in 1982. Some new ideas are needed not just at HC but across this league, but there is safety in inertia.

As much as I sincerely respect your Big East history knowledge, I don't agree w/your take going forward.

Expansion is always on the table. If, five years from now when it’s time for a new contract, Fox says they want a 12th member AND have the money to make it happen, it will happen. That’s the financial incentive. That’s it. So, yes, I unquestionably predict a 12th team will be on its way within the next 5 years.

Saint Louis and Dayton (which is hurt and not helped by being in Xavier's backyard) look like the best candidates right now. Unfortunately for them, things can change at a moments notice. Especially with regards to the Big East which has been known to chase the hot hand.

Look at Butler. That program was asleep for 35 years! Zero NCAA appearances and only three NIT appearances (all first round exits) between 1962 and 1997. Less upside than even Valpo let alone Dayton. But eventually Barry Collier turned them into a scrappy li'l bunch. Not legit A-10 candidates, let alone a Big East ones, but enough to get a rep as a tough out in March. Then Brad Stevens came along and took the next step.

Just like that, after back-to-back runs into the NCAA Finals, the A-10 and Big East both came calling. Suddenly, the 35 years of nothing was completely erased. Suddenly, they jumped ahead of Dayton. This despite the fact that (aside from when the Flyers flopped in the old Great Midwest Conference) Dayton has been a solid program since the early 1950s.

So teams can go through decades of crap. But if they happen to be hot at the right time, even a power conference like the Big East can come calling and forget the past. The same can be true for Holy Cross. HC has way more upside than Butler. Much better geography, much better academics, much better list of alumni, better hoops history (pre-Brad Stevens), much bigger endowment, just much bigger and better across the board. But they need a Collier-type to get the ball rolling. If Butler, which as late as the early 1990s was playing at a level lower than Holy Cross and Fordham upon their respective entries into the PL, can make it to the Big East, others can too.

It’s just a matter of being hot at the right time.

Couple of other random points for DFW:
1) Holy Cross was def up there but even during the Fauci (nice reference to his HS too!) years, I still think Notre Dame and Georgetown were always the top two when it came to Catholic universities.

2) For every Holy Cross there is also an NYU. Over the past 40 years the Violets have blossomed like never before. Sports had nothing to do w/the epic rise of a school that, as late as the mid 1960s, had hoops first on their agenda.

3) Rutgers has NOT fallen on hard times. Yeah, they suck in basketball. Yeah, they really suck in football. Yeah, they’ve had their share of coaching/AD fiascos. But they were playing a PL schedule up until the mid 1970s. Now they're in the "B1Ggest" and best conference of 'em all. They've come a long-assed way since shutout losses in Hamilton.

And for NY Crusader:
1) Seems like we both want Fordham and HC in a league together. But (unforeseen corona changes aside) Fordham is not dropping down to the PL for all sports. The only way to get the two back in the same league would be for HC to move up. For all of Fordham’s men's basketball misadventures, the A-10 has made most programs stronger. Even LaSalle was a Sweet 16 team about 6/7 years ago. HC has a much higher ceiling than the 5th member of Philly's Big 5 and a much higher ceiling than other A-10 teams too. They should be in a bigger league.

2) Once out of the inertia anything can happen. A big city's second team, like Loyola, gives another big city's second team, like Fordham, hope that even decades of suck can be forgotten w/a Final Four run. Butler gives all high mid-majors hope that back-to-back trips to the Finals can lead to a call from the Big East. Things can turn quickly in college sports. 4/5 good years can easily erase 30/40 bad ones. Gotta get outta the inertia first.

[DFW HOYA]

If the Big East goes to 12, Fox will call that shot. Given that the contract comes up in 2023, their input will be taken very, very closely. I don't see that Fox sees the Dayton-Kettering-Springfield market as a driver for their ratings. The unintended consequence of the 10 is that the teams in the three largest markets are the three teams at the bottom of the standings; UConn may be seen a ratings driver given the current standings are very Villanova-dependent.

To the other thoughts:

1. The HC reference is anecdotal, but there are those who ahve sugested that HC was more highly regarded than Georgetown into the early 1970s; some also suggest Fordham was very close. Georgetown took its upward turn thanks to its 46th president, the former EVP at Fordham, Timothy Healy S.J., who was passed over for Fordham's presidency when they opted for James Finlay S.J. instead.

2. NYU is a hard comparison for any of these conversations. It's a hodge-podge of very good but not great programs with a student body that is 28% international and just over half the class graduates in four years. Athletics hasn't been part of that equation in almost 50 years.

3. Rutgers is not the same program it was in the 1970's (few are) but as a flagship state university it consistently underperforms in athletics with regularity given what it is capable of. Outside of the Schiano years, RU football was, along with Temple, the worst major college program in the east--it jumped aboard the Big 10 gravy train not to compete, but to get a check. In basketball, its last NCAA bid was 29 years ago.

[Go Green]

1. The HC reference is anecdotal, but there are those who ahve sugested that HC was more highly regarded than Georgetown into the early 1970s; some also suggest Fordham was very close. Georgetown took its upward turn thanks to its 46th president, the former EVP at Fordham, Timothy Healy S.J., who was passed over for Fordham's presidency when they opted for James Finlay S.J. instead.



I'd also mention that Georgetown is in Washington, DC. DC has become a much more desirable place to be than Worcester over the past 40-50 years for a lot of reasons.

[Bill]

I admit I am too young to remember the late 60's and early 70's...so I asked my dad and uncles. All three were New York City (Bronx) catholics, educated at Iona Prep and/or Fordham Prep. To sum it up, they stated they confirm DFW's position - Holy Cross was a close second to only Notre Dame in terms of prestige at that time. Fordham was the choice if you didn't get into either ND or HC....with Fordham the back up. Georgetown was not really on the radar screen in terms of academic prestige for any of their circle of friends...a bunch of high academic achieving baby boomers.

How did it all turn out? My dad went to Colgate (football); 1 uncle went to Holy Cross (football), 1 went to TCU (yes, far from home. But he was a big time player...). Other close friends chose Dartmouth and Harvard over - you guessed it Holy Cross!

All anecdotal for sure, but his narrative fits the stories I've been told growing up....

[Fordham]

I admit I am too young to remember the late 60's and early 70's...so I asked my dad and uncles. All three were New York City (Bronx) catholics, educated at Iona Prep and/or Fordham Prep. To sum it up, they stated they confirm DFW's position - Holy Cross was a close second to only Notre Dame in terms of prestige at that time. Fordham was the choice if you didn't get into either ND or HC....with Fordham the back up. Georgetown was not really on the radar screen in terms of academic prestige for any of their circle of friends...a bunch of high academic achieving baby boomers.

How did it all turn out? My dad went to Colgate (football); 1 uncle went to Holy Cross (football), 1 went to TCU (yes, far from home. But he was a big time player...). Other close friends chose Dartmouth and Harvard over - you guessed it Holy Cross!

All anecdotal for sure, but his narrative fits the stories I've been told growing up....
very telling that there was no mention of Nova back then either!

[Bill]

excellent point!

[Sader87]

Massachusetts just closed all K-12 schools for the year.....I think it's getting dicey for a Fall football season...not that that is our biggest concern right now obviously

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Just saw that Bucknell recruit Luke DelGaudio decommited and is headed to Pitt as a preferred walk-on. I got to watch him a bunch last year as Dallas made it to the state title game; he's legit.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=Go Lehigh TU owl;2879054]Just saw that Bucknell recruit Luke DelGaudio decommited and is headed to Pitt as a preferred walk-on. I got to watch him a bunch last year as Dallas made it to the state title game; he's legit.[/Q

PL usually loses some recruits to PWO offers but timing is surprising. I would not be shocked given current situation that PL teams may lose some out of our area recruits . Some families might want to keep kids closer to home.

One other item for '24 recruit classes. Lehigh prepped WR recruit Logan Jones at Suffield Academy. A very athletic rail thin WR. A PG year will help him develop and mature.

[NY Crusader 2010]

PL with 2 UDFA as of yesterday:

Michael Dereus WR Georgetown (Ravens)
Jackson Dennis OT Holy Cross (Cardinals)