Western Carolina

[The Cats]

Anyone think this is enough to fix the problem at Western Carolina?

--------------------------------

Cullowhee, N.C. – Western Carolina head football coach Mark Speir (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733821&DB_OEM_ID=12100) today announced changes to his assistant coaching staff that includes a pair of coordinators. Defensive coordinator and inside linebackers coach John Wiley (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211734580&DB_OEM_ID=12100), co-offensive coordinator and wide receivers coach Tyler Carlton (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733825&DB_OEM_ID=12100), and outside linebackers coach and recruiting coordinator Mark Rhea (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733823&DB_OEM_ID=12100) will not be retained. The staff changes are effective immediately.

Wiley concluded his third season on the WCU sidelines in 2019 while Carlton, who was elevated to a position to share offensive coordinator duties this year, had been on staff in Cullowhee since 2014. Rhea was the longest-tenured WCU assistant coach, coming to Cullowhee in March 2010 as a part of the previous Catamount coaching staff. He remained on board after the coaching change in 2011 and served as the interim head coach for the program in mid-November of 2011. Speir will have no further comment until new assistant coaches are hired.

[Professor]

Interesting. NC is a tough recruiting area with all the football playing schools. this is the coach trying to keep his job

[The Cats]

Interesting. NC is a tough recruiting area with all the football playing schools. this is the coach trying to keep his job

He has a five year extension, starting 1 July 2020, if you can believe it. This was the result of WCU fans raising so much hell to fire the HC and the AD.

But, do you think this will fix the problem?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Western Carolina is in a tough spot literally and figuratively. App State has basically taken over Western NC in terms of the casual fan interest. They've also established themselves as being a bit of a destination school. As the Professor said NC is also over saturated with D1 football schools. Not sure if the Catamounts have much of a ceiling without a some good luck.

[Anthony215]

As stated NC is over saturated with D1 football programs. NC State, UNC, Duke, ECU, App State are all FBS programs who get the top in state players who don't go out of state. Then NC A&T gets the next tier of in state kids with WCU/Gardner-Webb/NC Central left to get the scraps. They may have to try start finding SC/VA programs they can dig roots into for players that didn't get the FBS offer mixed in with JUCO kids to get the program on leveled grounds before in state kids start taking them serious again. With how A&T is winning if a kid has to choose between the two schools chances are he's choosing the program that has recent winning history/tradition with hopes of showcasing their skills in front of as many scouts as possible.

[The Cats]

Western Carolina is in a tough spot literally and figuratively. App State has basically taken over Western NC in terms of the casual fan interest. They've also established themselves as being a bit of a destination school. As the Professor said NC is also over saturated with D1 football schools. Not sure if the Catamounts have much of a ceiling without a some good luck.

Actually, in that respect, Western Carolina has more than kept up, in 2018 ASU had just over 16k applications for admission, while the same year, WCU had over 19k applications for admission. That is part of the problem, the administration does not need football as the front porch for the university, we already outdraw ASU for applications, and have for several years, therefor, there is no sense of urgency to spend more dollars on athletics.

[Nor Eastern]

error on my part

[ElCid]

As stated NC is over saturated with D1 football programs. NC State, UNC, Duke, ECU, App State are all FBS programs who get the top in state players who don't go out of state. Then NC A&T gets the next tier of in state kids with WCU/Gardner-Webb/NC Central left to get the scraps. They may have to try start finding SC/VA programs they can dig roots into for players that didn't get the FBS offer mixed in with JUCO kids to get the program on leveled grounds before in state kids start taking them serious again. With how A&T is winning if a kid has to choose between the two schools chances are he's choosing the program that has recent winning history/tradition with hopes of showcasing their skills in front of as many scouts as possible.


You forgot, E-loan, Campbell, Davidson, and Charlotte as well. Makes it even worse.:D

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Actually, in that respect, Western Carolina has more than kept up, in 2018 ASU had just over 16k applications for admission, while the same year, WCU had over 19k applications for admission. That is part of the problem, the administration does not need football as the front porch for the university, we already outdraw ASU for applications, and have for several years, therefor, there is no sense of urgency to spend more dollars on athletics.

WCU's 41% acceptance rate shocked the hell out of me. I wonder what the out of state app % is? I do know App State and JMU have both gained traction in PA/NJ/NY.

[Catamount87]

Western Carolina is in a tough spot literally and figuratively. App State has basically taken over Western NC in terms of the casual fan interest. They've also established themselves as being a bit of a destination school. As the Professor said NC is also over saturated with D1 football schools. Not sure if the Catamounts have much of a ceiling without a some good luck.

That's an understatement! The south has become over saturated with D1 football.

If you draw a 200 or so mile circle around Cullowhee you'd find that in circle, in Tennessee - UT, UTC, MTSU, TN Tech and ETSU, in Georgia - Georgia Tech, Georgia State, Georgia and KSU, in SC - Clemson, Furman, Wofford, USC, Presbyterian, in NC - ASU, Gardner-Webb, UNCC, Wake Forest, NC A&T, and Davidson. Then just outside that circle, a good number of ACC, SEC, and Big South schools.

Oh and has this change gone far enough? No, it doesn't address the issue we've continually had on special teams!

[Professor]

[/B]He has a five year extension, starting 1 July 2020, if you can believe it. This was the result of WCU fans raising so much hell to fire the HC and the AD.

But, do you think this will fix the problem?

All depends on who the coach hires. I would look at some of the HS coaches in the area who have state title quality teams. That can help with local and state recruiting. Might need to pull a Tenn HS coach in too with you guys being so close to the line.

[walliver]

I think the bottom line is that football is very important to App State ... and is much less important to WCU.

Is WCU fairly compensated by the state for the "We Promise" $500/semester tuition?

[Catamount87]

I think the bottom line is that football is very important to App State ... and is much less important to WCU.

Is WCU fairly compensated by the state for the "We Promise" $500/semester tuition?

Oh boy, opening that can of worms. The state's general fund is supposed to provide the funding difference. However, the current budget fight between the governor and legislative leaders has the state's budget still in limbo. So, WCU is getting screwed over right now by idiotic children masquerading as adults.

[Mocs123]

Tyrie Adams was a special talent and I'm interested to see how WCU does without him. On one hand it's hard to see how you could be better losing such an amazing player, but on the other hand I've seen teams get better when their super talented guy goes away so they can focus more on team football rather than the one super talented individual. WCU is not devoid of talent, but I'm not sure the administration cares about anything other than having a team so the band can perform at halftime.

[Derby City Duke]

You forgot, E-loan, Campbell, Davidson, and Charlotte as well. Makes it even worse.:D

Poor ol' Wake Forest mus' don't git no kids cept 'dem third stringers from the home school league xlolx

[ejjones]

[/B]He has a five year extension, starting 1 July 2020, if you can believe it. This was the result of WCU fans raising so much hell to fire the HC and the AD.

But, do you think this will fix the problem?
TBD...but the question is were you losing because of X/O's, game day management or Jimmy and Joes?

[ElCid]

Poor ol' Wake Forest mus' don't git no kids cept 'dem third stringers from the home school league xlolx

NC has waaaaay too many Div I schools. Forgot them as well. Obviously different kids going to all the various schools, but it does ultimately matter. Tenn, Alabama, and SC and to an extent Florida also have too many schools. Georgia is really an outlier if you look at its population to Div I football school ratio. Mercer and KSU really have a leg up for the long haul.

[FUBeAR]

Cullowhee is 70 miles further from Atlanta than Macon is. Everyone is talking about how Mercer has such fertile recruiting grounds. When WCU was really good in the early 80’s, if I recall correctly, they had a ton of Atlanta kids on the roster & many of their star players were from Georgia. I guess they have some in-state limiting rules/guidelines/whatever (like VMI has) that limit their recruiting. That’s the kinda stuff that I mentioned in the other SoCon thread that SoCon Teams MUST find a way to work around IF they are/the SoCon is SERIOUS about returning to being a top-tier FCS Conference.

[WestCoastAggie]

Oh boy, opening that can of worms. The state's general fund is supposed to provide the funding difference. However, the current budget fight between the governor and legislative leaders has the state's budget still in limbo. So, WCU is getting screwed over right now by idiotic children masquerading as adults.

That "funding" is only temporary.

[ElCid]

Cullowhee is 70 miles further from Atlanta than Macon is. Everyone is talking about how Mercer has such fertile recruiting grounds. When WCU was really good in the early 80’s, if I recall correctly, they had a ton of Atlanta kids on the roster & many of their star players were from Georgia. I guess they have some in-state limiting rules/guidelines/whatever (like VMI has) that limit their recruiting. That’s the kinda stuff that I mentioned in the other SoCon thread that SoCon Teams MUST find a way to work around IF they are/the SoCon is SERIOUS about returning to being a top-tier FCS Conference.

Ok, but you are a kid who is from Georgia. You want to go to school in the middle of nowhere? Or 90 minutes from downtown Atlanta. It is way longer from Cullowhee. Go ahead choose. Being in state from a logistic standpoint has advantages. Realizing, of course, that the type of students may not all be interchangeable between the two schools.

[FUBeAR]

Ok, but you are a kid who is from Georgia. You want to go to school in the middle of nowhere? Or 90 minutes from downtown Atlanta. It is way longer from Cullowhee. Go ahead choose. Being in state from a logistic standpoint has advantages. Realizing, of course, that the type of students may not all be interchangeable between the two schools.depends on the quality of the wi-fi...

who knows what kids want? ...many wanna hunt & fish...many wanna chase girls...many wanna lay on the beach...many wanna get out of the city....many wanna get into the city.

Point is WCU was able to recruit a ton of kids from talent rich metro ATL in the past...and they can do it again almost as easily as Mercer & Furman can...and Wofford & Samford too for that matter, from a distance perspective. The 4 privates are all about the same distance (more or less) from ATL as WCU is...and none have a tuition cost advantage over WCU’s out-of-state tuition...and heck, Chatt is almost the same distance from ATL as Mercer. VMI, CIT, and ETSU are the only 3 SoCon schools that are distance-disadvantaged compared to Mercer (and the others) when it come to recruiting ATL. The rest are essentially on equal footing.

[ElCid]

depends on the quality of the wi-fi...

who knows what kids want? ...many wanna hunt & fish...many wanna chase girls...many wanna lay on the beach...many wanna get out of the city....many wanna get into the city.

Point is WCU was able to recruit a ton of kids from talent rich metro ATL in the past...and they can do it again almost as easily as Mercer & Furman can...and Wofford & Samford too for that matter, from a distance perspective. The 4 privates are all about the same distance (more or less) from ATL as WCU is...and none have a tuition cost advantage over WCU’s out-of-state tuition...and heck, Chatt is almost the same distance from ATL as Mercer. VMI, CIT, and ETSU are the only 3 SoCon schools that are distance-disadvantaged compared to Mercer (and the others) when it come to recruiting ATL. The rest are essentially on equal footing.

And yet we have 29 from Georgia with about half coming from Atlanta metro...including that dynamic duo of Rainey and Webb who played together in HS. Georgia is #2 behind SC for our players.

[FUBeAR]

And yet we have 29 from Georgia with about half coming from Atlanta metro...including that dynamic duo of Rainey and Webb who played together in HS. Georgia is #2 behind SC for our players.
Which proves my point...If SoCon Schools want to recruit ATL & surrounds, they can do that just about as easily as Mercer can...particularly the 5 others I cited.

BTW - those 2 young men played for the HC in HS who was the OC at the HS in GA where I used to Coach. He moved on to that HC gig the same year I started, so I didn’t Coach with him...but I know he was EXTREMELY well respected by ALL. Those boyz were Coached Up & Football-Ready before they lost all sense of logic & reason and decided to become bellhops

[Catamount87]

NC has waaaaay too many Div I schools. Forgot them as well. Obviously different kids going to all the various schools, but it does ultimately matter. Tenn, Alabama, and SC and to an extent Florida also have too many schools. Georgia is really an outlier if you look at its population to Div I football school ratio. Mercer and KSU really have a leg up for the long haul.

There are 36 D1 football programs in the SoCon's primary/home recruiting states (NC, SC, GA, TN). Another 15 when you add in VA and FL. So yes, there is a TON of D1 football around us all. FYI, here's a web site with a list of D1 schools by state and sport: https://www.fieldlevel.com/explore-teams/football/ga/ncaad1

The number of D1 football programs by state in the SE:

NC - 12 (web site didn't list Campbell or UNCC)
SC - 8 (web site didn't list USC and Clemson)
GA - 6
TN - 10
FL - 6
VA - 9
AL - 9
MS - 4
LA - 9
KY - 6

[ElCid]

There are 32 D1 football programs in the SoCon's primary/home recruiting states (NC, SC, GA, TN). Another 15 when you add in VA and FL. So yes, there is a TON of D1 football around us all. FYI, here's a web site with a list of D1 schools by state and sport: https://www.fieldlevel.com/explore-teams/football/ga/ncaad1

The number of D1 football programs by state in the SE:

NC - 10
SC - 6
GA - 6
TN - 10
FL - 6
VA - 9
AL - 9
MS - 4
LA - 9
KY - 6

Your numbers aren't correct. When you put in SC, it only shows 6 Div I but it didn't show Clemson, USC or CCU......9 Div I. I didn't check all the other states, but it looks out of date.

[Catamount87]

I initially didn't look at the list of schools, just the total. I notice SC didn't list USC and Clemson so I went back to check NC and SC which both had a couple missing. The rest of the states, well I'll take the site on faith.

As for NC, the UNC system has 17, yes 17 universities! That's 17 public universities I don't even know the number of private colleges and universities. Then there is the expansive community college system too! NC might have the most number of colleges and universities per capita then any other state other than CA. (EDIT: I did a quick search it looks like 54 colleges and universities in NC excluding a handful of seminaries.)

[walliver]

North Carolina has a lot of schools, but only two public schools in Western North Carolina (WCU and UNC-A). Of course the mountains are not densely populated. There are only two football schools in the mountains (WCU and ASU). The challenge for WCU is attracting players who want to live in a small college town surrounded by mountains. A bigger challenge may be attracting players to a program with a poor football history.

BTW, according to Wikipedia, SC has 62 colleges and universities, 31 of which offer 4-year undergraduate education, 12 of which are public. NC's population is twice that of SC, so the proportionally it's about the same as NC. The main difference is that NC's public schools are in one system. In SC, outside the USC system, all the public schools are independent of the others and function autonomously - some better than others.

[ST_Lawson]

North Carolina has a lot of schools, but only two public schools in Western North Carolina (WCU and UNC-A). Of course the mountains are not densely populated. There are only two football schools in the mountains (WCU and ASU). The challenge for WCU is attracting players who want to live in a small college town surrounded by mountains. A bigger challenge may be attracting players to a program with a poor football history.

I think there's a lot of parallels between Western Carolina and Western Illinois (outside the "Western" and the colors) although Illinois doesn't have anywhere near the number of DI playing football schools.
WCU has more in-state "competition" for players, but it's a similarly-sized school in a slightly smaller town in a pretty sparsely-populated area (within 20 mile radius of the towns, WCU has ~94k people, WIU has ~43k). We've had some success, but other than an occasional year here or there, it's been a while (since before most of the kids we're recruiting were born). Pretty much replace "mountains" with "cornfields" and it's pretty spot-on for WIU as well.

[ASU33]

Anyone think this is enough to fix the problem at Western Carolina?

--------------------------------

Cullowhee, N.C. – Western Carolina head football coach Mark Speir (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733821&DB_OEM_ID=12100) today announced changes to his assistant coaching staff that includes a pair of coordinators. Defensive coordinator and inside linebackers coach John Wiley (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211734580&DB_OEM_ID=12100), co-offensive coordinator and wide receivers coach Tyler Carlton (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733825&DB_OEM_ID=12100), and outside linebackers coach and recruiting coordinator Mark Rhea (http://www.catamountsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&ATCLID=211733823&DB_OEM_ID=12100) will not be retained. The staff changes are effective immediately.

Wiley concluded his third season on the WCU sidelines in 2019 while Carlton, who was elevated to a position to share offensive coordinator duties this year, had been on staff in Cullowhee since 2014. Rhea was the longest-tenured WCU assistant coach, coming to Cullowhee in March 2010 as a part of the previous Catamount coaching staff. He remained on board after the coaching change in 2011 and served as the interim head coach for the program in mid-November of 2011. Speir will have no further comment until new assistant coaches are hired.

This will either lead to significant improvements or this is the beginning of the end.

[ElCid]

This will either lead to significant improvements or this is the beginning of the end.

No. Don't be silly, where would their band perform? If not at football games, where?

[walliver]

When the head coach fires a bunch of assistants, it is usually a problem with the head coach. Maybe fresh blood will make a difference, but probably not.
Historically, WCU has been in the I-AA championship game, but has never won a SoCon championship.

[The Cats]

WCU NOT RENEWING CONTRACT OF DIRECTOR OF ATHLETICS RANDY EATON


CULLOWHEE – Western Carolina University Chancellor Kelli R. Brown has announced that Randy Eaton, director of athletics at WCU since 2011, will no longer serve in that role, effective immediately, and the university will not be renewing his contract, which expires in June 2020.Brown made the announcement Tuesday, Dec. 10.Eaton was named to lead WCU’s athletics program in December 2011. Before coming to WCU, he served as senior associate director of athletics at the University of Maryland and held positions in athletics administration at a number of schools across the nation including the University of Houston, Texas A&M – Corpus Christi and WCU’s fellow Southern Conference school, East Tennessee State University.“Western Carolina University’s athletics program has made numerous positive steps forward during Randy Eaton’s time on campus, and we are grateful for the leadership he brought as director of athletics,” Brown said. “Chief among those positive developments are improvements in overall support for our student-athletes and increases in student-athlete GPAs, in addition to advances in athletics fundraising. WCU’s athletics program is better today than it was when Randy Eaton arrived, and we thank him for that.”

[gofurman]

That's an understatement! The south has become over saturated with D1 football.

If you draw a 200 or so mile circle around Cullowhee you'd find that in circle, in Tennessee - UT, UTC, MTSU, TN Tech and ETSU, in Georgia - Georgia Tech, Georgia State, Georgia and KSU, in SC - Clemson, Furman, Wofford, USC, Presbyterian, in NC - ASU, Gardner-Webb, UNCC, Wake Forest, NC A&T, and Davidson. Then just outside that circle, a good number of ACC, SEC, and Big South schools.

Oh and has this change gone far enough? No, it doesn't address the issue we've continually had on special teams!

THIS. Furman in the 80s (2 National Title appearances and one win) got three key players I know of because "UGA and GTech didn't offer". So they came to Furman.. Now, i realize this has been discussed but if you do the math it is SICK:

NEW PROGRAMS or teams that moved up a division:

Mercer - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
KSU - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Charleston Southern - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Wofford - D2 now D1 so 30 more scholarship kids gone
Jacksonville State - weren't they D2 and now D1 so 30 more scholarship kids gone?
Coastal Carolina - 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Georgia State- 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
UNC Charlotte - 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
App State - now in FBS so they draw 22 more scholarships
Georgia Southern - now in FBS so they draw 22 more scholarships

That's just off the top of my head.. there are at least 5 more easily.

Someone (not me) took the time to compare this to the increase in the population in the SouthEast and - because the population increase does count... you basically had what was once 50 great players going to 5 schools - meaning each FCS school got 10 of those 'quality players'.. now with the increase of scholarships it is the best 50 players looking at 17 schools and each school gets TWO or so of those good players from NC / SC / GA - just way too many DAM programs.

ITS. JUST. MATH

ANd then the ones that have military requirements - Citadel / VMI are extremely hamstrung.. and the ones with academic requirements are hamstrung pretty well too - Furman, Wofford, etc. When Furman played APSU APSU had a kid from "Last Chance U" .. maybe that should be "no more chances U???" And they had several SEC transfers. Furman / WOfford etc can't take those kids. Randy Moss ..after Notre Dame kicked him out.. AND FSU kicked him out.. Randy and Marshall say "hi" xsmhx

Not to focus on Moss, he grew up LATER, but Marshall showed their true colors when they said "come on down" after his second school had to kick him out.
-----------------------------


BACK ON SUBJECT, I hope things work out for Western - would like another good SoCon program. It's a pretty area where your campus is but I could see how some recruits might not want to be in the 'hills of NC - some want a city environment etc. Some programs just have 'built-in' disadvantages. the thing WCU always has to fight is would a kid want to be in the mountains or in, say, Charlotte?

[bonarae]

That's an understatement! The south has become over saturated with D1 football.

Meanwhile, not to take it off of you all, but the Northeast and California are thin on CFB, particularly D-I, these days.

[Catamount87]

THIS. Furman in the 80s (2 National Title appearances and one win) got three key players I know of because "UGA and GTech didn't offer". So they came to Furman.. Now, i realize this has been discussed but if you do the math it is SICK:

NEW PROGRAMS or teams that moved up a division:

Mercer - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
KSU - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Charleston Southern - 63 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Wofford - D2 now D1 so 30 more scholarship kids gone
Jacksonville State - weren't they D2 and now D1 so 30 more scholarship kids gone?
Coastal Carolina - 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
Georgia State- 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
UNC Charlotte - 85 more scholarship kids gone (NEW PROGRAM)
App State - now in FBS so they draw 22 more scholarships
Georgia Southern - now in FBS so they draw 22 more scholarships

That's just off the top of my head.. there are at least 5 more easily.

Someone (not me) took the time to compare this to the increase in the population in the SouthEast and - because the population increase does count... you basically had what was once 50 great players going to 5 schools - meaning each FCS school got 10 of those 'quality players'.. now with the increase of scholarships it is the best 50 players looking at 17 schools and each school gets TWO or so of those good players from NC / SC / GA - just way too many DAM programs.

ITS. JUST. MATH

ANd then the ones that have military requirements - Citadel / VMI are extremely hamstrung.. and the ones with academic requirements are hamstrung pretty well too - Furman, Wofford, etc. When Furman played APSU APSU had a kid from "Last Chance U" .. maybe that should be "no more chances U???" And they had several SEC transfers. Furman / WOfford etc can't take those kids. Randy Moss ..after Notre Dame kicked him out.. AND FSU kicked him out.. Randy and Marshall say "hi" xsmhx

Not to focus on Moss, he grew up LATER, but Marshall showed their true colors when they said "come on down" after his second school had to kick him out.
-----------------------------


BACK ON SUBJECT, I hope things work out for Western - would like another good SoCon program. It's a pretty area where your campus is but I could see how some recruits might not want to be in the 'hills of NC - some want a city environment etc. Some programs just have 'built-in' disadvantages. the thing WCU always has to fight is would a kid want to be in the mountains or in, say, Charlotte?

485 additional scholarships right there. (I'm counting Coastal as only 22 b/c they moved up like GSU and App.) Two others to add are Campbell and UNC-Pembroke, that's another 126 then there's Liberty moving up so another 22. That brings our total up to 633 additional scholarships.

Simple supply and demand happening here. Why has the SoCon fallen to a mid-level FCS conference? It's not just because App and GSU moved up and adding 44 more scholarships, it's really the other 589 reasons why.