What Is Going On With Patriot League Football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

https://www.college-sports-journal.com/what-is-going-on-with-patriot-league-football/

In other conferences, winning the conference and autobid with a team with a losing record is something that never even crosses fans’ minds. But in the Patriot League, there is a real chance that the conference champion and FCS autobid entry will not have a winning record at all. All four teams still in the running could finish at .500 or worse, and still win the autobid.

And this isn’t the first time this has happened. In 2013, Lafayette won the Patriot League with a 5-6 record, and in 2017, their bitter rivals Lehigh did the same.

The Patriot League, over the last decade, has had some genuinely tremendous teams make it into the playoffs. In 2011, Lehigh upset Towson who two years later would make it to the FCS National Championship Game with much of the same roster. Colgate fielded a couple of all-time teams who happened to eliminate James Madison twice in the playoffs (in 2015 and 2018 – the Raiders are undefeated against the Dukes all-time). And Fordham, under then-head coach Joe Moorhead, fielded some Ram teams that nobody wanted to face.

But why does the Patriot League have this issue of feast or famine? Why does the Patriot League every couple of years have this issue of fielding teams that have losing records heading to the playoffs – a situation nobody wants – and what can the teams of the Patriot League do about it?

[DFW HOYA]

"But it’s worth asking – if Lafayette had redshirting available, if they had a full complement of 63 scholarships at their disposal, if they had a roster of 100 to 110 athletes, and if they, say, had more academic leeway to offer scholarships to athletes that the coaching staff feels could do the work at their school – what would their record be?


It's worth asking: if Georgetown had redshirting available, if they had a full complement of 63 scholarships at their disposal, if they had a roster of 100 to 110 athletes, and if they, say, had more academic leeway to offer scholarships to athletes that the coaching staff feels could do the work at their school – what would their record be?

[wapiti]

Why do we need two threads on how bad the Patriot league is??
https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?239422-The-Absolutely-Awful-Patriot-League

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's worth asking: if Georgetown had redshirting available, if they had a full complement of 63 scholarships at their disposal, if they had a roster of 100 to 110 athletes, and if they, say, had more academic leeway to offer scholarships to athletes that the coaching staff feels could do the work at their school – what would their record be?

Equally as valid for Georgetown as it is for Lafayette.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why do we need two threads on how bad the Patriot league is??
https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?239422-The-Absolutely-Awful-Patriot-League

One is just a piling-on crapfest of a thread, chest-beating and hand-wringing for no purpose. This at least attempts to identify problems and offer solutions.

[Sader87]

This has been covered in countless other threads.

Short answer:
1 PL team restrictions: roster size, no redshirting, 60 scholarships, restrictive AI etc
2 Many teams are in rebuilding mode with new (er) coaches
3 Difficult OOC scheduling...which is good, but has led to poor overall records

Give the league a couple years and then pull the alarm if no improvement is seen.

[DFW HOYA]

Give the league a couple years and then pull the alarm if no improvement is seen.

This would be a timely post...in 2016. It's been six years since scholarships came on board and the trend is anything but upward.

[DFW HOYA]

Give the league a couple years and then pull the alarm if no improvement is seen.

This would be a timely post...in 2016. It's been six years since scholarships came on board and the trend is anything but upward.


Equally as valid for Georgetown as it is for Lafayette.

Putting on the fan hat, but there would be NO comparison between Georgetown and Lafayette (and probably the rest of the PL) if the Hoyas were able to recruit nationally on 63 full grants in aid.

[RichH2]

Very good article adressing the issues that our Council of Presidents should address.
True Sader most of us are in rebuilding mode. But, this is round 2. DFW correctly notes that these issues started 6 years ago. The move that was to would make us competitive OOC. Well, it, it didnt. Now we are trying again with new coaches but with the same rules. Can we really expect a different result?

[Sader87]

I still think most schools are still learning how to recruit with schollies, roster limits etc

Chesney (supposedly, admittedly) seems to be recruiting well now at HC...he does have the advantage of having practice facilities as good as any FCS and many FBS schools that the other PL schools don't have. Hopefully some will soon.

[Bill]

31209
A little PL humor

[Sitting Bull]

They don't have enough teams in the conference.

[cx500d]

31209
A little PL humor
Very Little......

[ElCid]

Its just simple math. There are just 7 teams in the Patriot. That means 6 conf games. In a 12 game year, like this year, that means 6 OOC. If the conf is competitive, that might mean 4-2 record for the champ. Throw in at least 1 FBS for a presumed loss, a couple competitive NEC teams maybe for 1-1, a couple CAA to be 1-1 at best or maybe 0-2, and an Ivy (hoping to get a cupcake, but probably a good one) to go 0-1 and bingo, you are at 6-6 at best and more likely 5-7. Sucks, but even the bottom of the CAA and even the Ivy are not bad teams. Holy Cross sitting at 5-5, 3-1 had 2 FBS losses, 1-2 IVY, and 1 CAA win. Lafayette at 3-7, 3-1, had 0-2 CAA, 0-2 Ivy, 0-1 Big So, 0-1 NEC. Bad year OOC to be sure, but they were all pretty good opponents. The worst were Sacred Heart and Penn and they are still mid-level teams. The rest were all top 40 material. That isn't defending the Patriot, but it it is just realizing that the low conf games have an impact. In other bigger conferences, there are only 3 or 4 OOC to contend with and in some conferences sometimes only 2 OOC games in 11 game years.

Plus, when I look at the Patriot it appears to be a pretty competitive conference. Every team has won at least a game so far. The best has lost at least one game so far. You don't have a run away strong team, usually. Colgate being the exception last year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They don't have enough teams in the conference.

You are right. Will the league presidents do anything to attract new members? The current policies aren't exactly making new teams very interested.

[Sader87]

Its just simple math. There are just 7 teams in the Patriot. That means 6 conf games. In a 12 game year, like this year, that means 6 OOC. If the conf is competitive, that might mean 4-2 record for the champ. Throw in at least 1 FBS for a presumed loss, a couple competitive NEC teams maybe for 1-1, a couple CAA to be 1-1 at best or maybe 0-2, and an Ivy (hoping to get a cupcake, but probably a good one) to go 0-1 and bingo, you are at 6-6 at best and more likely 5-7. Sucks, but even the bottom of the CAA and even the Ivy are not bad teams. Holy Cross sitting at 5-5, 3-1 had 2 FBS losses, 1-2 IVY, and 1 CAA win. Lafayette at 3-7, 3-1, had 0-2 CAA, 0-2 Ivy, 0-1 Big So, 0-1 NEC. Bad year OOC to be sure, but they were all pretty good opponents. The worst were Sacred Heart and Penn and they are still mid-level teams. The rest were all top 40 material. That isn't defending the Patriot, but it it is just realizing that the low conf games have an impact. In other bigger conferences, there are only 3 or 4 OOC to contend with and in some conferences sometimes only 2 OOC games in 11 game years.

Plus, when I look at the Patriot it appears to be a pretty competitive conference. Every team has won at least a game so far. The best has lost at least one game so far. You don't have a run away strong team, usually. Colgate being the exception last year.

Thanks....basically the argument I've been making here with regards to overall records this year.

This isn't to say that there are not other issues as well.

[Baron Sardonicus]

It's worth asking: if Georgetown had redshirting available, if they had a full complement of 63 scholarships at their disposal, if they had a roster of 100 to 110 athletes, and if they, say, had more academic leeway to offer scholarships to athletes that the coaching staff feels could do the work at their school – what would their record be?

They would be at least 7-3, same as Villanova. In fact, they would actually be Villanova. That's the fantasy, right? But they're not going to be Villanova. They're going to be Georgetown.

[Go Green]

I still think most schools are still learning how to recruit with schollies, roster limits etc.

My own personal opinion is that when the PL went scholarship, they expected to win head-to-head battles with the Ivies.

Unfortunately for the PL, the Ivies enhanced their financial aid packages around the same time to (largely) negate the scholarship advantage of the PL.

And the PL just didn't have a Plan B. They still don't.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My own personal opinion is that when the PL went scholarship, they expected to win head-to-head battles with the Ivies.

Unfortunately for the PL, the Ivies enhanced their financial aid packages around the same time to (largely) negate the scholarship advantage of the PL.

And the PL just didn't have a Plan B. They still don't.

Broadly, yes, the Ivies' enhancement of financial aid put a dent in the scholarship advantage. But they have also exploited loopholes in ways that the PL cannot to expand their rosters and field superteams.

This has done two things. One, it has shown that there is no "Ivy Model" to follow anymore. At one time, it was theoretically possible to have a model of parallel football conferences that did the academic checking but otherwise could work under a broad similar framework. But with the "enhancement of financial aid", that is a tool only available to the richest of private institutions. Since the Ivy has chosen that route, the Patriot League (and anybody else in FCS) cannot follow them. They are their own subdivision, probably best suited for G5 FBS.

Second, it should make the presidents of the Patriot League really question what they are doing. If the schools of the PL are no longer looking to follow the Ivy League model, what should they do? Should they try to limit scholarships like the NEC? Shoot for FCS excellence like the CAA? Live somewhere in between like the Big South? Go to some non-scholarship model with redshirting like the PFL? Note that any of these visions for the PL include some sort of change from the way it is now, even the PFL route. That should say a lot. The PL has put itself in too many straitjackets in a time when every other conference has loosened theirs. One straitjacket might be workable, but not all of them together.

[DFW HOYA]

Second, it should make the presidents of the Patriot League really question what they are doing. If the schools of the PL are no longer looking to follow the Ivy League model, what should they do? Should they try to limit scholarships like the NEC? Shoot for FCS excellence like the CAA? Live somewhere in between like the Big South? Go to some non-scholarship model with redshirting like the PFL? Note that any of these visions for the PL include some sort of change from the way it is now, even the PFL route. That should say a lot. The PL has put itself in too many straitjackets in a time when every other conference has loosened theirs. One straitjacket might be workable, but not all of them together.

Three thoughts.

1. Declare victory on the AI and move to a different model. There is zero evidence that the PL schools will abandon a representative model absent the artificial numbers-based approach of the Ivy Index, so it's time for a new approach--namely, to maintain the "representative of the student body" mantra, scrap all admission bands but all decisions on admission go through admissions, not the coaches--i.e, they would issue a likely letter for a scholarship.

BTW, Holy Cross is now using SAT-optional admissions and I would predict many PL schools will follow. The AI is hollowed out once that takes place.

2. Modify the scholarship equivalency rules to allow for a combination of merit and need aid up to 63. The present situation is counterproductive.

3. Establish a scheduling bureau within the PL that assists schools with games, opponents, and promotional opportunities. It does no good to over-schedule for guarantee games and get embarrassed, nor does it to any good for schools (OK, just one school) to sign long term deals to play Division III teams. But if that school can't find any opponents anymore, what then? The PL should be able to assist in that regard.

Post-script: In case anyone has not realized it yet, PL expansion is dead. No one is going to commit to this league in its current form. However, Jennifer Heppel et al. should have a "top drawer" list of 2-4 schools in case there is sudden realignment. I would suggest that the CAA isn't on this list nor even the NEC, but perhaps some out of the box thinking. If the PL continues to pine for the bucolic liberal arts colleges of the Northeast to follow the Likins-Brooks model, that isn't happening.

[Baron Sardonicus]

... Jennifer Heppel et al. should have a "top drawer" list of 2-4 schools in case there is sudden realignment. ... perhaps some out of the box thinking. If the PL continues to pine for the bucolic liberal arts colleges of the Northeast to follow the Likins-Brooks model, that isn't happening.

What "out of the box" schools would you suggest? How about "out of the Northeast?" Just as the Big East - version 2.0 - took five schools from the Midwest, the Patriot could go nationwide. Obviously, current and future Patriot League schools would need to find common ground on financial aid.

Red State people like the word "Patriot," btw.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Three thoughts.

1. Declare victory on the AI and move to a different model. There is zero evidence that the PL schools will abandon a representative model absent the artificial numbers-based approach of the Ivy Index, so it's time for a new approach--namely, to maintain the "representative of the student body" mantra, scrap all admission bands but all decisions on admission go through admissions, not the coaches--i.e, they would issue a likely letter for a scholarship.

BTW, Holy Cross is now using SAT-optional admissions and I would predict many PL schools will follow. The AI is hollowed out once that takes place.

2. Modify the scholarship equivalency rules to allow for a combination of merit and need aid up to 63. The present situation is counterproductive.

3. Establish a scheduling bureau within the PL that assists schools with games, opponents, and promotional opportunities. It does no good to over-schedule for guarantee games and get embarrassed, nor does it to any good for schools (OK, just one school) to sign long term deals to play Division III teams. But if that school can't find any opponents anymore, what then? The PL should be able to assist in that regard.

Post-script: In case anyone has not realized it yet, PL expansion is dead. No one is going to commit to this league in its current form. However, Jennifer Heppel et al. should have a "top drawer" list of 2-4 schools in case there is sudden realignment. I would suggest that the CAA isn't on this list nor even the NEC, but perhaps some out of the box thinking. If the PL continues to pine for the bucolic liberal arts colleges of the Northeast to follow the Likins-Brooks model, that isn't happening.

Great post. Two thoughts.

One, the only missing piece you don't talk about is the roster caps. I'd argue that they too are counterproductive and seem unnecessary - does excessive focus on football by the Patriot League presidents seem like an actual problem? Furthermore, those roster spots are likely to be taken by tuition-paying walk-ons, not guys from Alabama in the transfer portal.

Second, I'd argue that if the PL makes all of the reforms we are talking about, I'd think Villanova would at least return a phone call from the league. I can't speak to other CAA schools, but it seems to me that Villanova has been interested in a 63 scholarship, no-AI-band, redshirt Patriot League for quite some time.

[ngineer]

Great post. Two thoughts.

One, the only missing piece you don't talk about is the roster caps. I'd argue that they too are counterproductive and seem unnecessary - does excessive focus on football by the Patriot League presidents seem like an actual problem? Furthermore, those roster spots are likely to be taken by tuition-paying walk-ons, not guys from Alabama in the transfer portal.

Second, I'd argue that if the PL makes all of the reforms we are talking about, I'd think Villanova would at least return a phone call from the league. I can't speak to other CAA schools, but it seems to me that Villanova has been interested in a 63 scholarship, no-AI-band, redshirt Patriot League for quite some time.

Richmond as well.

[Go Green]

Richmond as well.

So what's stopping them? Seems we've been hearing Nova/Richmond to the PL for quite some years now...

[DFW HOYA]

So what's stopping them? Seems we've been hearing Nova/Richmond to the PL for quite some years now...

Are we still tilting at these windmills again?

I'll offer two different names that are 1) private, 2) good football programs, 3) are already playing outside their native conference, and 4) expands the PL footprint:

1. Monmouth
2. Hampton

Are they Harvard and Yale? No, but the PL footprint to these schools is preferable to North Alabama and Kennesaw State.

Because unless the PL wants to settle for Pioneer schools like Marist and Davidson (which they don't) , the Big South may be all that's left.

[UNHWildcat18]

Thanks....basically the argument I've been making here with regards to overall records this year.

This isn't to say that there are not other issues as well.

It's all good sader, HC will just join the AE/CAAFB when JMU bounces to FBS xdrunkyx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So what's stopping them? Seems we've been hearing Nova/Richmond to the PL for quite some years now...

What's stopping them is the three different straitjackets the league has put themselves in. Without getting rid of all three straitjackets, any team movement is truly a non-starter. It would be laughable for Villanova to call about membership to the PL without redshirting and 63 scholarships.

[Sader87]

It's all good sader, HC will just join the AE/CAAFB when JMU bounces to FBS xdrunkyx

I'm afraid the Holy Cross leaving the PL train left the station....probably a good 10-20 years ago.

The school (and the NCAA landscape) has changed when it comes to focusing on the "major sports" i.e. principally basketball and football from when I was first a fan and then a student at Holy Cross in the 1970s and 1980s.

Holy Cross, rightly or wrongly, has morphed into more of an athletic school along the lines of Bucknell, Lafayette etc instead of say BC and Villanova. The school pretty much needs to stay in the PL to keep its academic reputation from continuing to fall from where it once was.

[DFW HOYA]

The school pretty much needs to stay in the PL to keep its academic reputation from continuing to fall from where it once was.

Going test-optional was a red flag as far as Holy Cross's reputation goes. Fair or unfair, test-optional schools are seen as those with withering admissions standards and that they'll let more under the curve in than the test scores might suggest.

[Sader87]

Going test-optional was a red flag as far as Holy Cross's reputation goes. Fair or unfair, test-optional schools are seen as those with withering admissions standards and that they'll let more under the curve in than the test scores might suggest.

Yup...it's pretty discouraging as an alumnus. Many today won't or can't believe that both BC and Villanova were once "safety schools" for people applying to Holy Cross well into the 1980s...now the situation has basically flip-flopped.

[Lion1983]

Are we still tilting at these windmills again?

I'll offer two different names that are 1) private, 2) good football programs, 3) are already playing outside their native conference, and 4) expands the PL footprint:

1. Monmouth
2. Hampton

Are they Harvard and Yale? No, but the PL footprint to these schools is preferable to North Alabama and Kennesaw State.

Because unless the PL wants to settle for Pioneer schools like Marist and Davidson (which they don't) , the Big South may be all that's left.

Agree on Monmouth, not Hampton. Hampton is a full member of the Big South and is kinda outside the PL.

[aceinthehole]

Are we still tilting at these windmills again?

I'll offer two different names that are 1) private, 2) good football programs, 3) are already playing outside their native conference, and 4) expands the PL footprint:

1. Monmouth
2. Hampton

Are they Harvard and Yale? No, but the PL footprint to these schools is preferable to North Alabama and Kennesaw State.

Because unless the PL wants to settle for Pioneer schools like Marist and Davidson (which they don't) , the Big South may be all that's left.

Putting academic scores and reputation aside (which is a long thread itself), is the PL willing to concede it's AQ to an affiliate member?

I think Monmouth has been very successful vs. PL teams the last few years. Outside of Colgate's run last year, MU would have probably won the PL in 4 of the last 5 years.

[Sader87]

I really hope we don't add another PL-affiliate membah for football...and it doesn't look like any are coming too soon. I like the flexibility the 6 game PL schedule allows for OOC scheduling, which if I'm being brutally honest, are much more interesting games for HC than games against some of the PL teams....and many PL schools may feel likewise with games against HC and that's fine.

The only school out there that really makes any sense for PL expansion in football, for a host of reasons, is Villanova.

[Baron Sardonicus]

On a scale of 1-10, how does Marist rate as an all-sports candidate?

[DFW HOYA]

On a scale of 1-10, how does Marist rate as an all-sports candidate?

With 10 being the best, probably a 3.