Can JMU take UConn's place in the AAC?

[bonarae]

The Dukes seem to be interested in moving up; we have seen it time and again... xcoffeex

https://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/02/james-madison-has-interest-in-moving-up-to-fbs/

[Professor Chaos]

I thought I had heard at some point that the state of Virginia requires FBS schools to fund their athletic department with X% or less coming from student fees and JMU was way over that right now with their FCS/CAA budget. I suppose there's "creative accounting" ways around that but if that's the case it seems like it would make an FBS move to the highest non-P5 conference pretty tough with the likely budget increase that would come with it.

I hope they stay regardless but it's a great opportunity for a big jump all in one move if they can pull it off.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

While I would love for a Mid-Atlantic/Northeast school to replace UConn, I highly doubt JMU is truly a legit candidate to be that school.

First, their men's basketball program is simply not up to snuff. I remember a few years ago when they made the "first 4" and won with a young team. It appeared they were about ready to take off as perhaps the premier program in the CAA. Needless to say, that remains the Dukes the only tournament performance over the last 25 years. Their arena would probably be big enough, a tick over 6k, but would likely need some serious renovations. Overall, the program top to bottom would need major changes. I'm not sure the school has the resources to pull it off.

Their women's bball team is pretty good. Five tournament appearances this decade and several other trips to the WNIT. They would likely come in and immediately finish in the upper half of the league imo.

Football is the most interesting. I think they school/donors have the resources to make JMU a pretty competitive program in the AAC almost from the start. However, without another serious round of renovations for Bridgeforth facilities would be hurdle a major hurdle in rather short order imo. It's a really nice stadium by FCS standards but it was clearly done the cheap. Navy, ECU and Temple fans will not be impressed. I'm also not sure if they'd lose a bit of their niche as a dominant CAA school/elite FCS program in the region?

The Commonwealth of Virginia already seems a bit oversaturated with FBS programs as it is.

[clenz]

Is JMU not getting a massive overhaul/new arena for like next year?

[walliver]

Wouldn't taking a FCS move-up be a tremendous blow to the AAC's extreme ego?

[grayghost06]

.
Is JMU not getting a massive overhaul/new arena for like next year?
Yup, an 88 million dollar job. Will seat 8500 and they "say..." there is a little room for expansion. That last part is a bit funny though, since our average attendance has been plummeting for 20 years. https://jmusports.com/feature/AtlanticUnionBankCenter

[OhioHen]

ECU fans will not be impressed.

ECU "fans" can't be bothered to enter their own stadium, why would they even notice Bridgeforth? "Pirate Nation" doesn't exactly travel well.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

ECU "fans" can't be bothered to enter their own stadium, why would they even notice Bridgeforth? "Pirate Nation" doesn't exactly travel well.

They travel really well and show up in mass (by G5 standards) at Dowdy-Ficklen when the Pirates are doing well. Their recent downturn has really hurt the the AAC as a whole imo. When I was down there for a Thursday night game in 2015 their was still some good juice in the program/stadium. I firmly believe Houston will get that ball rolling again in rather short order. I'm old enough to remember the 1991 Jeff Blake season and the ensuing run under Steve Logan.

- - - Updated - - -


Is JMU not getting a massive overhaul/new arena for like next year?

That's awesome! Seems like the perfect venue!

[GreenGlasses]

JMU doesn't fit the AAC model and if they did their Carnegie Classification would keep them out. Every school in the AAC is either a Doctoral University (R1 or R2). James Madison is classified as a Master's Colleges & Universities (Larger Programs).

[dbackjon]

If the AAC adds a Virginia school, it will be ODU.

[clenz]

If the AAC adds a Virginia school, it will be ODU.
I've said it before on another JMU thread on this topic

If the AAC wants Virginia - it's exactly what you said - and JMU's best hope is the CUSA wants to keep that market and saw JMU as an option

[grayghost06]

JMU doesn't fit the AAC model and if they did their Carnegie Classification would keep them out. Every school in the AAC is either a Doctoral University (R1 or R2). James Madison is classified as a Master's Colleges & Universities (Larger Programs).

Ahhhh, I see "HerdZoned" has made yet another appearance on an FCS board. Saw the exact quote on our board yesterday. I guess things in C-USA and FBS land are slow right now.

[GreenGlasses]

Ahhhh, I see "HerdZoned" has made yet another appearance on an FCS board. Saw the exact quote on our board yesterday. I guess things in C-USA and FBS land are slow right now.

Same thing may have been said on your board but not by me. And what was said is true. You don't fit the model and yes conference do look at Carnegie Classifications. JMU has pigeonholed themselves into a no win situation and have no one to blame but their stale out of date president and AD. You don't jump from IAA to IA and jump to the front of the line. Why do you think the MWC has never came for NDSU. They could go 15-0 the next 10 years and MWC schools wouldn't take them in.

[Nor Eastern]

I have a feeling that if JMU had taken the Sun Belt's offer before the Belt took CCU then JMU would be high on the list for the AAC.

[grayghost06]

JMU doesn't fit the AAC model and if they did their Carnegie Classification would keep them out. Every school in the AAC is either a Doctoral University (R1 or R2). James Madison is classified as a Master's Colleges & Universities (Larger Programs).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=GreenGlasses;2778563]Same thing may have been said on your board but not by me. And what was said is true. You don't fit the model and yes conference do look at Carnegie Classifications. JMU has pigeonholed themselves into a no win situation and have no one to blame but their stale out of date president and AD. You don't jump from IAA to IA and jump to the front of the line. Why do you think the MWC has never came for NDSU. They could go 15-0 the next 10 years and MWC schools wouldn't take them in.

From our board yesterday by a Marshall poster named HerdZone…"One other thing that would keep you out is your Carnegie classification. Every school in the AAC is either a Doctoral University (R1 or R2), JMU is classified as a Master's Colleges & Universities (Larger Programs).

It's you, admit it

[walliver]

JMU doesn't fit the AAC model and if they did their Carnegie Classification would keep them out. Every school in the AAC is either a Doctoral University (R1 or R2). James Madison is classified as a Master's Colleges & Universities (Larger Programs).

They could take Mercer or ETSU instead.
Carnegie Classifications tend be much higher for any school which offers a MD degree, since, in the US, this degree can only be offered by research institutions. In many cases, the medical school is the source of much, if not most, of the institutional research.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

They could take Mercer or ETSU instead.
Carnegie Classifications tend be much higher for any school which offers a MD degree, since, in the US, this degree can only be offered by research institutions. In many cases, the medical school is the source of much, if not most, of the institutional research.

Going from the SoCon to the AAC is mighty big jump. We do have a mighty fine football coach and a mighty fine basketball coach. Who knows, if ETSU makes the move, we will encounter some serious growing pains but I believe we've got the coaches to get us to the top of the league in due time.

[Professor Chaos]

Same thing may have been said on your board but not by me. And what was said is true. You don't fit the model and yes conference do look at Carnegie Classifications. JMU has pigeonholed themselves into a no win situation and have no one to blame but their stale out of date president and AD. You don't jump from IAA to IA and jump to the front of the line. Why do you think the MWC has never came for NDSU. They could go 15-0 the next 10 years and MWC schools wouldn't take them in.
I'm guessing JMU has a similar faction of their fan base but I know for a fact that there are a good chunk of NDSU fans who will never buy the bolded statement and think that all you have to do is keep asking a conference until they say "Fine, you can join".

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Same thing may have been said on your board but not by me. And what was said is true. You don't fit the model and yes conference do look at Carnegie Classifications. JMU has pigeonholed themselves into a no win situation and have no one to blame but their stale out of date president and AD. You don't jump from IAA to IA and jump to the front of the line. Why do you think the MWC has never came for NDSU. They could go 15-0 the next 10 years and MWC schools wouldn't take them in.

Academics definitely matter. I stated that in another thread regarding Tulane's and SMU's firm place within the league despite some terrible on-the-field-performances.

Memphis and ECU's academic rankings were rather "subpar" for a number of years. Even now, neither one sets on the world on fire despite considerable improvements over the last 5-10 years. Memphis, despite a huge a enrollment, was basically a step up from a community college 15-20 years ago. I think JMU's current academic pedigree would be good enough given the schools overall potential. It's a beautiful school located in an awesome location. I've seen more and more JMU gear in Northeast PA over the last 2-3 years. It's a straight shot down 81 from where I am. As a result it's become a bit of a "hot" school around here. Delaware had similar appeal in years past.

[PAllen]

The Commonwealth of Virginia already seems a bit oversaturated with FBS programs as it is.

??? I wouldn't exactly call it oversaturated. Besides, JMU would instantly jump ODU in the hierarchy of teams in VA.

[FUBeAR]

They could take Mercer
Bite your panting tongue, anklebiter! The last thing FUBeAR would want either of the FCS Schools he supports to do is become an irrelevant wannabe like every other school in G5 is...pretending to play “Major College Football” while they sacrifice so many things - integrity, tradition, academics, good stewardship of the funds of the students and their families, etc., etc., etc., just to blow smoke up the skirts of the uninformed egos of themselves & some misguided Alums/Boosters.

No sir. FCS is THE place to be for my Bears & my Paladins!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

??? I wouldn't exactly call it oversaturated. Besides, JMU would instantly jump ODU in the hierarchy of teams in VA.

Virginia, Virginia Tech, ODU, Liberty and JMU(?.... Five FBS programs in a state like Virginia imo is too many. North Carolina also has too many. Charlotte should not be FBS. Elon and North Carolina A&T have benefited from their new found niche imo. Western Carolina has improved considerably since nearby App State went FBS.

JMU might jump ODU in football but I'm not sure they would in hoops. The new arena would help but the Monarchs have a real strong track record to build off of.

[RootinFerDukes]

I have a feeling that if JMU had taken the Sun Belt's offer before the Belt took CCU then JMU would be high on the list for the AAC.

Has there been an example in recent history to show the former Big East/AAC has taken a team as low as the Sun Belt? It’s possible CUSA has reached equal status as the sun belt now but the past pecking order has show that the Sun Belt is a layer below even CUSA.

[RootinFerDukes]

??? I wouldn't exactly call it oversaturated. Besides, JMU would instantly jump ODU in the hierarchy of teams in VA.

One could argue we’re still ahead of ODU and Liberty to this day despite their FBS labels. We’ll see how ODU’s attendance does in their barely bigger stadium they’re building. It’s only adding about 2k seats overall. Bridgeforth is still a bigger facility.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Bite your panting tongue, anklebiter! The last thing FUBeAR would want either of the FCS Schools he supports to do is become an irrelevant wannabe like every other school in G5 is...pretending to play “Major College Football” while they sacrifice so many things - integrity, tradition, academics, good stewardship of the funds of the students and their families, etc., etc., etc., just to blow smoke up the skirts of the uninformed egos of themselves & some misguided Alums/Boosters.

No sir. FCS is THE place to be for my Bears & my Paladins!

HUH?!?!

The bumbling programs in the G5 sure, absolutely. But there are nationally relevant Top 25 programs in the G5 who are not sacrificing any of those things you mention to be where they are. There's several others who are easily in the top half of college football doing things the right way.

I'm perfectly happy with Temple's arrangement in the AAC. It gives our traditionally strong bball program a platform to reach an elite level and for football it allows us to be nationally relevant if we're good enough. At worst, we make waves regionally/locally (Philly) by going 7-5/8-4 which is fine by me. Temple does it right in football, basketball, swimming, softball, track etc. We soldout to be in the Big East back in its heyday. Karma got us and it nearly killed the program. Now, all things considered, football is thriving...

[JacksFan40]

Has there been an example in recent history to show the former Big East/AAC has taken a team as low as the Sun Belt? It’s possible CUSA has reached equal status as the sun belt now but the past pecking order has show that the Sun Belt is a layer below even CUSA.
The Sun Belt has done a great job of adding App State and Georgia Southern. Made the conference much much better, probably better than the MAC and C-USA.

[NY Crusader 2010]

There is ZERO CHANCE the AAC invites JMU to replace UCONN. Absolutely none.

And I'm a believer that JMU would be a GREAT fit in either Sun Belt or CUSA.

I could see JMU getting invited to replace whoever the AAC does invite. They have a number of solid options for the one opening. You could make a case for Marshall, UAB, Charlotte, ODU, Rice or Southern Miss. In that order IMO.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The Sun Belt has done a great job of adding App State and Georgia Southern. Made the conference much much better, probably better than the MAC and C-USA.

The Sun Belt has managed to get stronger despite being the last link to get poached in every round of conference realignment. I like the fact that they are developing rivalries and geographic homogeneity rather than focusing on "markets" which doesn't matter much at the lower levels of FBS / DI.

[FUBeAR]

HUH?!?!

The bumbling programs in the G5 sure, absolutely. But there are nationally relevant Top 25 programs in the G5 who are not sacrificing any of those things you mention to be where they are. There's several others who are easily in the top half of college football doing things the right way.

I'm perfectly happy with Temple's arrangement in the AAC. It gives our traditionally strong bball program a platform to reach an elite level and for football it allows us to be nationally relevant if we're good enough. At worst, we make waves regionally/locally (Philly) by going 7-5/8-4 which is fine by me. Temple does it right in football, basketball, swimming, softball, track etc. We soldout to be in the Big East back in its heyday. Karma got us and it nearly killed the program. Now, all things considered, football is thriving...
Temple has a Football Team? Who knew?

[Gangtackle11]

Temple has a Football Team? Who knew?

They do. They lost to Villanova last year. xlolxxpeacex

[RootinFerDukes]

The Sun Belt has done a great job of adding App State and Georgia Southern. Made the conference much much better, probably better than the MAC and C-USA.

They may be great additions but that doesn’t really address my point. There has not been any proof that the Sun Belt is higher in the CFB pecking order than CUSA. The AAC isn’t taking sun belt teams, so saying JMU should’ve joined the sun belt is moot.

[Nor Eastern]

They may be great additions but that doesn’t really address my point. There has not been any proof that the Sun Belt is higher in the CFB pecking order than CUSA. The AAC isn’t taking sun belt teams, so saying JMU should’ve joined the sun belt is moot.


There's actually plenty of evidence that the Sun Belt has passed the CUSA in terms of strength and perception. .


1. Actual record against one another. SBC teams have embarrassed CUSA teams lately. Mid level SBC Coastal destroyed CUSA Champ UAB last year. App State wrecked CUSA Runner-up. Etc. etc.

2. Overall bowl records of the last several seasons. SBC has finished with a much higher record.

3. Much higher CFP payout. Almost $2 million more than CUSA. SBC is 3rd among the G5

4. Orlando Sentinel's rankings of all FBS teams this year perfectly reflects SBC's rise over CUSA


There's more but it's early and coffee hasn't kicked in

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Temple has a Football Team? Who knew?
https://espnpressroom.com/us/files/2015/12/Notre-Dame-Temple-780x405.png

To be fair, I care a little more about hoops because we are a basketball school. Now that One-N-Dunphy is finally gone I have hope again we can become a legit threat nationally.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

They may be great additions but that doesn’t really address my point. There has not been any proof that the Sun Belt is higher in the CFB pecking order than CUSA. The AAC isn’t taking sun belt teams, so saying JMU should’ve joined the sun belt is moot.

I think the Sun Belt has surpassed CUSA and if JMU joined us we'd put some separation from them. But that's besides the point.

The AAC has one primary concern with adding new members....that's who is going to add value to the TV contract that aren't already Power 5 . That list is small...BYU, Boise, and Army (to get the Army-Navy game under the umbrella of their TV package). BYU and Boise are geographic outliers and don't seem to have much interest in the AAC, and Army and Navy would have to give up their annual game the weekend after the conference championship games to do that. Media markets don't add TV value despite what some sports writers think, and being good at football or basketball don't do that. Having big fan bases does.

The eventual goal of the AAC IMO is to get their own conference network. That's when you really start to make big bucks off TV and that's when they might can start to claim they're "Power 6".

[Nor Eastern]

The eventual goal of the AAC IMO is to get their own conference network. That's when you really start to make big bucks off TV and that's when they might can start to claim they're "Power 6".



The ESPN deal the AAC will label all their events under the American Network branding. While not a literal network, it gets their name and brand out even more than MAC/SBC/CUSA. The Mountain West are still working on their next media deal. I'm sure it'll be something similar.

[Nor Eastern]

http://forgotten5.com/2019/07/03/stony-brook-has-everything-the-aac-wants-except-an-fbs-stadium/


Looks like Stony Brook getting a little bit of pop from Forgotten5

[RootinFerDukes]

http://forgotten5.com/2019/07/03/stony-brook-has-everything-the-aac-wants-except-an-fbs-stadium/


Looks like Stony Brook getting a little bit of pop from Forgotten5

I guess they don’t want things like butts in seats? Oh who are we kidding. Half the current AAC doesn’t have that either.

[NY Crusader 2010]

http://forgotten5.com/2019/07/03/stony-brook-has-everything-the-aac-wants-except-an-fbs-stadium/


Looks like Stony Brook getting a little bit of pop from Forgotten5

Good laugh. If the AAC was adamant about having another school from the Northeast in the conference (they needn't be), Buffalo would be a candidate (even though that's basically the midwest). And of course theres UMASS if the league wanted to keep a foothold in the Bew England sports market.

My bet, as I've repeated several times, is they add a strong football school in the South, or at least a school in a solid market with potential to grow.

[FUBeAR]

https://espnpressroom.com/us/files/2015/12/Notre-Dame-Temple-780x405.png

To be fair, I care a little more about hoops because we are a basketball school. Now that One-N-Dunphy is finally gone I have hope again we can become a legit threat nationally.
Wouldn’t it be helpful to actually ‘threaten’ an FCS Team in your own city 1st? (see post #30]

[DFW HOYA]

Good laugh. If the AAC was adamant about having another school from the Northeast in the conference (they needn't be), Buffalo would be a candidate (even though that's basically the midwest). And of course theres UMASS if the league wanted to keep a foothold in the New England sports market.

The AAC is looking west. It is moving its headquarters from Providence (a holdover from the Big East days) to Dallas, and its basketball tournament from Orlando to the Ft. Worth stockyards. It is far more interested in BYU or Colorado State than any call-up from I-AA.

Also, it's not inconceivable down the road that Temple, which has never fit the Big East model then or now, parks its football team in the MAC or as an independent and reconnects with the A-10.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The AAC is looking west. It is moving its headquarters from Providence (a holdover from the Big East days) to Dallas, and its basketball tournament from Orlando to the Ft. Worth stockyards. It is far more interested in BYU or Colorado State than any call-up from I-AA.

Also, it's not inconceivable down the road that Temple, which has never fit the Big East model then or now, parks its football team in the MAC or as an independent and reconnects with the A-10.

Absolutely no chance of that happening! Temple will drop football (and rightfully so) instead of forking of a few million dollars to rent to the Linc to play a MAC schedule again. I don't see anyway we return to the A10 in hoops either given the current state of that league. I think another bball league would be formed if something crazy happened to the AAC.

[DFW HOYA]

I think another bball league would be formed if something crazy happened to the AAC.

After 2020, the closest AAC basketball school is 422 miles to Broad Street, the next one is 570 miles. West Virginia can survive playing its games in the Big 12, but the lack of Northeastern options for Temple has to be an issue down the road.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

After 2020, the closest AAC basketball school is 422 miles to Broad Street, the next one is 570 miles. West Virginia can survive playing its games in the Big 12, but the lack of Northeastern options for Temple has to be an issue down the road.

You can get a little creative when it comes to bball scheduling. Big 5 games can be mixed into the league play to get an extra local game in Jan/Feb. We also have history with Duke, Maryland, Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Penn State and Rutgers to keep interest up. If McKie can elevate the us past Dunphy's nonsense (zero weeks ranked in AP Top 25 since 2012 and horrific tournament showings) the program will be fine. Fran Dunphy is without a doubt one of, if not THEE most overrated coach in college basketball history. Nice guy, great leader of men yes! But ultimately a mediocre basketball coach. The media's love affair with Dunphy made getting rid of him that much harder. The narrative they spewed simply was not true!

The bottom line is win! Top 25 battles against Memphis, Cincinnati and Houston will have the LC rocking. Hoops is all on us!

[WestCoastAggie]

Sidenote, Could JMU form a conference with UConn, UMass and Temple?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Sidenote, Could JMU form a conference with UConn, UMass and Temple?

UConn just re joined the Big East a week ago. UMASS isn't leaving A10 basketball unless it's for the AAC.

So if a football conference were to be formed starting with these four schools, you'd still need to find at least 6 more full time members in addition to JMU and Temple to be able to start an FBS football league.

[NY Crusader 2010]

WestCoastAggie - I know an East Coast version of the Sun Belt has been brought up before. While Liberty was able to somehow claim discrimination and break the rule, technically a school needs an invite from an existing FBS conference to transition up from FCS. This combined with needing 8 full time members, makes creating such a league almost impossible. But this could possibly fly if schools were allowed to move up to FBS first as indies and then form a league together.


1) UConn
2) UMass
3) JMU
4) Temple
5) Liberty
6) Delaware
7) Stony Brook
8) William & Mary
9) Towson
10) Stony Brook

Call it the Yankee Conference with 8 full time all-sports members plus UCONN and UMASS as affiliates. Assuming Temple wouldn't want to downgrade both in football and hoops for this league despite its friendlier geography, you could replace them with Youngstown State. DONE. Voila - new FBS conference.

[DFW HOYA]

Call it the Yankee Conference with 8 full time all-sports members plus UCONN and UMASS as affiliates. Assuming Temple wouldn't want to downgrade both in football and hoops for this league despite its friendlier geography, you could replace them with Youngstown State. DONE. Voila - new FBS conference.

Stony Brook, W&M, and Towson do not meet NCAA I-A stadium requirements and could not be expected to meet the 15,000 attendance standard.

[RootinFerDukes]

Stony Brook, W&M, and Towson do not meet NCAA I-A stadium requirements and could not be expected to meet the 15,000 attendance standard.

Get back to me when you can find evidence that “standard” is ever enforced. 1/3 of FBS would be forced to FCS if it was.

[clenz]

Get back to me when you can find evidence that “standard” is ever enforced. 1/3 of FBS would be forced to FCS if it was.
Find me an FBS team - old or new - that has a stadium that can't even meet the standard.

[DFW HOYA]

Get back to me when you can find evidence that “standard” is ever enforced. 1/3 of FBS would be forced to FCS if it was.

There are only seven I-A schools that do not meet the two year 15,000 paid attendance average:

Western Kentucky (14,968)
San Jose St. (14,230)
Louisiana-Monroe (12,069)
Charlotte (11,307)
Northern Illinois (10,847)
Massachusetts (10,546)
Ball St. (10,094)

Of these, WKU and San Jose can get those numbers over 15K without too much trouble. The bottom four, esp. UMass and Ball State, have some major problems.

[Laker]

There are only seven I-A schools that do not meet the two year 15,000 paid attendance average:

Western Kentucky (14,968)
San Jose St. (14,230)
Louisiana-Monroe (12,069)
Charlotte (11,307)
Northern Illinois (10,847)
Massachusetts (10,546)
Ball St. (10,094)

Of these, WKU and San Jose can get those numbers over 15K without too much trouble. The bottom four, esp. UMass and Ball State, have some major problems.

Remember when Northern Illinois was really pushing to get an invite to the Big 12?

[UAalum72]

WestCoastAggie - I know an East Coast version of the Sun Belt has been brought up before. While Liberty was able to somehow claim discrimination and break the rule, technically a school needs an invite from an existing FBS conference to transition up from FCS. This combined with needing 8 full time members, makes creating such a league almost impossible. But this could possibly fly if schools were allowed to move up to FBS first as indies and then form a league together.


1) UConn
2) UMass
3) JMU
4) Temple
5) Liberty
6) Delaware
7) Stony Brook
8) William & Mary
9) Towson
10) Stony Brook

Call it the Yankee Conference with 8 full time all-sports members plus UCONN and UMASS as affiliates. Assuming Temple wouldn't want to downgrade both in football and hoops for this league despite its friendlier geography, you could replace them with Youngstown State. DONE. Voila - new FBS conference.
Stony Brook has so much potential they get two teams?

[Laker]

2017 FCS stats of over 15,000

No. School Attendance Average
1. Montana 23,535
2. James Madison 21,724
3. Florida A&M 19,048
4. Yale 18,940
5. Montana St. 18,617
6. Jacksonville St. 18,388
7. North Dakota St. 18,333
8. Prairie View 17,803
9. Delaware 16,648
10. N.C. A&T 15,697

[NY Crusader 2010]

Stony Brook has so much potential they get two teams?

It was 1am. I usually am in bed by 10pm. Guess this league is going to fold unless UNH comes in to save the day.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It was 1am. I usually am in bed by 10pm. Guess this league is going to fold unless UNH comes in to save the day.

Or Army if they joined as a full time member.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Put NCAT in the league

[DFW HOYA]

Put NCAT in the league

Is NCAT code for "Next...Crusaders, About Time"?

[uni88]

Remember when Northern Illinois was really pushing to get an invite to the Big 12?Northern Illinois just needs to schedule a "home" game against Iowa or Wisconsin at Soldier Field and their numbers will shoot up.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[NY Crusader 2010]

There are only seven I-A schools that do not meet the two year 15,000 paid attendance average:

Of these, WKU and San Jose can get those numbers over 15K without too much trouble. The bottom four, esp. UMass and Ball State, have some major problems.

Describing the UMASS football situation as having major problems is a huge disrespect to major problems.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Get back to me when you can find evidence that “standard” is ever enforced. 1/3 of FBS would be forced to FCS if it was.

Last time the standard was enforced was when the Ivies were forced down in 1983.

[Nor Eastern]

Half the CUSA is unhappy with their place in the G5. Convincing 6 or 7 CUSA-East teams to leave and start a new conference would be much easier than getting the NCAA to allow so many move-ups as Indie then forming a conference from that.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Half the CUSA is unhappy with their place in the G5. Convincing 6 or 7 CUSA-East teams to leave and start a new conference would be much easier than getting the NCAA to allow so many move-ups as Indie then forming a conference from that.

You're absolutely right. CUSA has turned into a hodgepodge league made up of schools whose one common denominator is needing to be in an FBS football league. Quite a mix of upstarts on one hand (UTSA, ODU) and longtime-programs (USM, UTEP, Rice) on the other. Plus you have schools like Marshall, North Texas, MTSU and WKU who moved to the league thinking they were upgrading when they really weren't in the long run.

[Nor Eastern]

If the CUSA decided to pull a Big East/AAC an eastern based conference for JMU could be:

JMU
ODU
Marshall
WKU
MTSU
UNCC
FIU
FAU
GaSt
UAB

That's a good mix of football and basketball minded schools in states that have good recruiting and rivalries could flourish (WKU/MTSU, ODU/JMU, FAU/FIU, UNCC/GaSt/UAB, and MU/Everyone)

[WestCoastAggie]

WestCoastAggie - I know an East Coast version of the Sun Belt has been brought up before. While Liberty was able to somehow claim discrimination and break the rule, technically a school needs an invite from an existing FBS conference to transition up from FCS. This combined with needing 8 full time members, makes creating such a league almost impossible. But this could possibly fly if schools were allowed to move up to FBS first as indies and then form a league together.


1) UConn
2) UMass
3) JMU
4) Temple
5) Liberty
6) Delaware
7) Stony Brook
8) William & Mary
9) Towson
10) Stony Brook

Call it the Yankee Conference with 8 full time all-sports members plus UCONN and UMASS as affiliates. Assuming Temple wouldn't want to downgrade both in football and hoops for this league despite its friendlier geography, you could replace them with Youngstown State. DONE. Voila - new FBS conference.

Something like this could work if UCONN, UMASS, JMU, Temple, and Liberty could pull away Buffalo from the MAC or Army. But then again, who wants to team up with Liberty?

[Nor Eastern]

Something like this could work if UCONN, UMASS, JMU, Temple, and Liberty could pull away Buffalo from the MAC or Army. But then again, who wants to team up with Liberty?


LOL, no one. Liberty tried to bribe their way into CUSA with $24,000,000 upfront payment in 2017. Tried to bribe the Sun Belt in 2014 with a "sizeable" upfront payment and was told "no."


https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/21/16339764/liberty-football-fbs-conference-jerry-falwell-sun-belt

[bluehenbillk]

Something like this could work if UCONN, UMASS, JMU, Temple, and Liberty could pull away Buffalo from the MAC or Army. But then again, who wants to team up with Liberty?

Temple gets $7M per year in TV money from the AAC - why would they go from there to a league that while is geographically Northeast/Mid-Atlantic centered but probably at best even with the Sun Belt in competition?

[DFW HOYA]

Temple gets $7M per year in TV money from the AAC - why would they go from there to a league that while is geographically Northeast/Mid-Atlantic centered but probably at best even with the Sun Belt in competition?

Not right now, closer to $2.2 million. The $7 million doesn't come in until the final years of the AAC contract circa 2032.

[Pinnum]

Absolutely no chance of that happening! Temple will drop football (and rightfully so) instead of forking of a few million dollars to rent to the Linc to play a MAC schedule again.

I thought the Linc was coming to an end. Isn't Temple building their own stadium as a result of the Eagles raising their rent the second Temple started having success and threatening the Eagles hold on Philly football?

[Pinnum]

I thought I had heard at some point that the state of Virginia requires FBS schools to fund their athletic department with X% or less coming from student fees and JMU was way over that right now with their FCS/CAA budget.


You're correct. https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?151+ful+CHAP0704

This is the whole reason JMU isn't willing to consider the Sun Belt of CUSA. They are only willing to go FBS if they can get to a conference with higher revenue and one that will get them games against bigger brands. They believe that they can make up for the revenue drop in student fees if they are in the right conference but can't do it by simply moving to any FBS conference.

[clenz]

You're correct. https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?151+ful+CHAP0704

This is the whole reason JMU isn't willing to consider the Sun Belt of CUSA. They are only willing to go FBS if they can get to a conference with higher revenue and one that will get them games against bigger brands. They believe that they can make up for the revenue drop in student fees if they are in the right conference but can't do it by simply moving to any FBS conference.Catch 22

You don't get an invite to one of those conferences without being a proven FBS athletic department that can prove it doesn't need to rape student fees to be able to make such a move work.



Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I thought the Linc was coming to an end. Isn't Temple building their own stadium as a result of the Eagles raising their rent the second Temple started having success and threatening the Eagles hold on Philly football?

Not any time soon. Too much political BS in regards to the the city of Philadelphia and the neighborhoods surrounding Temple.

[Pinnum]

Not any time soon. Too much political BS in regards to the the city of Philadelphia and the neighborhoods surrounding Temple.

It's a shame Talen Energy Stadium isn't in the city because it would be the perfect venue for Temple. It would be packed for every game and would cost a lot less money to rent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talen_Energy_Stadium

I still might consider it. Gives Temple some leverage in negotiations. And they are already bussing students to games and it is only 10 miles further. Use the Linc for Penn State, Notre Dame and Oklahoma games.

[CHIP72]

It's a shame Talen Energy Stadium isn't in the city because it would be the perfect venue for Temple. It would be packed for every game and would cost a lot less money to rent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talen_Energy_Stadium

I still might consider it. Gives Temple some leverage in negotiations. And they are already bussing students to games and it is only 10 miles further. Use the Linc for Penn State, Notre Dame and Oklahoma games.

Lincoln Financial Field is easily accessible from Temple's campus via the SEPTA Broad Street Line. Talen Energy Stadium in Chester is not easily accessible from Temple campus.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lincoln Financial Field is easily accessible from Temple's campus via the SEPTA Broad Street Line. Talen Energy Stadium in Chester is not easily accessible from Temple campus.

The Linc logistically is perfectly fine. Super easy to get to for students despite the fact it's very much "off campus". It's also easy to get to for most fans from all directions The problem is, it's simply too big to create a quality, fun atmosphere for a program of Temple's ilk. The other issue is Temple is paying way too much to play there!

Talen Energy Stadium is a non-starter. It's basically 20+ miles from Temple (think UConn playing in East Hartford) which means it could be upwards of a 90 commute in Philly traffic.

[Henny]

UD played Nova at Talen twice. Despite the outcomes, its a nice tailgating scene on the Delaware River and great place to watch a game. I don't blame Nova for not playing the game there anymore. It becomes a Delaware home game.

[grayghost06]

Catch 22

You don't get an invite to one of those conferences without being a proven FBS athletic department that can prove it doesn't need to rape student fees to be able to make such a move work.


Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


So let me ask you this. Do you find no fault whatsoever in charging more for less, as long as the students aren't being charged a fee to support the Athletic Dept? The college landscape, especially at the FCS level, is littered with lower rated schools who charge substantially more than JMU and deliver far less for the entirety of the college experience. That's the crime from where I'm sitting. That is ok with you? We are not even above the mean within our own state in terms of total cost of attendance. Different laws and accounting procedures across the country dictate how money is apportioned. If it weren't a line item the way we currently do it, it would be "factored" in by some other creative accounting manner...just like other schools do it.

[DFW HOYA]

The college landscape, especially at the FCS level, is littered with lower rated schools who charge substantially more than JMU and deliver far less for the entirety of the college experience. That's the crime from where I'm sitting.

Every school is different. How does one compare the "entirety of the college experience" at JMU to that of William & Mary or Hampton, much less comparing to Princeton or Incarnate Word or Butler or Western Carolina? For example, JMU only offers six men's sports. Is that a better experience than a school that offers twice as many? No easy answers.

For a school with as many resources as it does, JMU seems tentative on next steps. A 2016 article says as such: "Outside of student fees and conference distributions, our opportunities for generating revenue are somewhat limited."

https://jmusports.com/news/2016/9/2/bourne-money-matters.aspx?path=administration

[clenz]

So let me ask you this. Do you find no fault whatsoever in charging more for less, as long as the students aren't being charged a fee to support the Athletic Dept? The college landscape, especially at the FCS level, is littered with lower rated schools who charge substantially more than JMU and deliver far less for the entirety of the college experience. That's the crime from where I'm sitting. That is ok with you? We are not even above the mean within our own state in terms of total cost of attendance. Different laws and accounting procedures across the country dictate how money is apportioned. If it weren't a line item the way we currently do it, it would be "factored" in by some other creative accounting manner...just like other schools do it.
80% of your athletic department is funded by student fees - that's a **** of a lot more than an accounting game.

An accounting game is what UNI is forced to play. UNI needs to "borrow" 4 million from the general fund to subsidize the athletic department. That money goes to scholarships which is a check written right back to the university general fund. Meanwhile accounting, business, education, etc... scholarships don't have to follow that same rule.

40 million in student fees being routed to the athletic department isn't an accounting games.


You can point fingers and go "Look at what this school does. They do X so us doing Y doesn't matter". Doesn't change the fact that a top 6 level FBS conference isn't going to invite a school that gets 80-90% of it's budget from student fees while the school claims it will use less student fees if the conference invites it with no proof of that happening

[Seawolf97]

Dont be surprised if the University of Buffalo slips into UConns slot at some point .

AAU School one of only 62 with that academic credential.
33k Student body at last count . Not overwhelming but large enough .
Major Medical school and Law school both around for decades.
Major improvement in both football and basketball recently .
New facilities including their stadium and a new field house .
The City of Buffalo isn't Philly but it does support the Bulls especially in hoops .
Can only see what may happen

[Pinnum]

Dont be surprised if the University of Buffalo slips into UConns slot at some point .

AAU School one of only 62 with that academic credential.
33k Student body at last count . Not overwhelming but large enough .
Major Medical school and Law school both around for decades.
Major improvement in both football and basketball recently .
New facilities including their stadium and a new field house .
The City of Buffalo isn't Philly but it does support the Bulls especially in hoops .
Can only see what may happen

Buffalo isn't a good geographic fit. The American has made it clear they don't want to be in the northeast and want to consolidate their footprint.

Their basketball team had some success but who knows if it will continue. Let's see how their crowds look in the years to come. They have a small arena.

Football stadium is horrible. Lousy place to watch a game and they don't have the money to build a new one. They cut four sports just four years ago due to budget issues stemming from football.

The football team isn't supported or really followed. Everyone there followed the NFL and the Bills. It is a small market and tough to support two football teams.

Their problem is that they are located in the Great Lakes region which makes them a perfect location for the MAC but all of their students and alumni are Buffalo or to the East with most at least six hours to the east. The school is in the Great Lakes but most of the school identifies as the Northeast.

Buffalo should probably be in a conference with UMass and if Albany or Stony Brook ever made the move to FBS. They are kind of an oddball in the MAC and the American isn't going to take them. They would be a nice fit for the CAA in football if they were FCS.

[Derby City Duke]

80% of your athletic department is funded by student fees - that's a **** of a lot more than an accounting game.

An accounting game is what UNI is forced to play. UNI needs to "borrow" 4 million from the general fund to subsidize the athletic department. That money goes to scholarships which is a check written right back to the university general fund. Meanwhile accounting, business, education, etc... scholarships don't have to follow that same rule.

40 million in student fees being routed to the athletic department isn't an accounting games.


You can point fingers and go "Look at what this school does. They do X so us doing Y doesn't matter". Doesn't change the fact that a top 6 level FBS conference isn't going to invite a school that gets 80-90% of it's budget from student fees while the school claims it will use less student fees if the conference invites it with no proof of that happening

While I agree with much of your post, Virginia State Law (passed in 2016) would require JMU to substantially reduce reliance on student fees, so to say they wouldn't do it isn't completely accurate. JMU is currently in the midst of meeting the new FCS max of 70% funding from fees. FCS schools in Virginia have until June 30, 2021 to reach this cap. What I don't know at this point is whether JMU would have a 5-year window to meet the FBS cap, which for Virginia Tech and Virgina is currently 20%. Both schools are well below 15% (though given the $$ they get from the ACC, why they are charging students ANYTHING for athletics is beyond me).

I also think the fees are exhorbitant at JMU (I have NO idea what fees I paid back in the early 80s, or what they supported), but they are within the limits set out under Virginia Law -- whether we like it or not. Hopefully the growth of a larger and wealthier alumni base will allow the school to fund athletics through their fundraising / endowment arms.

xtwocentsx

[smilo]

Buffalo should probably be in a conference with UMass and if Albany or Stony Brook ever made the move to FBS. They are kind of an oddball in the MAC and the American isn't going to take them. They would be a nice fit for the CAA in football if they were FCS.

How do these teams keep getting brought up for discussion in an FBS upgrade? They are about the last teams I would consider from the CAA. UB is the de facto flagship in most ways. Albany could only conceivably be a forced made up rivalry. Stony Brook is a fine place but wouldn't have a single FBS peer institution. Not to mention, neither has much possibility of fan potential.

That's not to say anyone else (other than JMU) would move up, but at least the small state flagships have better cases for who they would attempt to draw support from. No one on Long Island can identify with Stony Brook.

Delaware feasibly could but I don't think it would fare very well. Why be fodder for UConn?

[NY Crusader 2010]

I actually think Buffalo is in the perfect spot for themselves in the MAC -- no natural rival but geography-wise remember that you can drive from the far border of Western NY to the Ohio border in about 40 minutes.

The SUNYs as a whole were very late to the Division I sports game, much like the Dakotas. Otherwise maybe UB would be in a higher league now and perhaps Stony Brook and Albany would be programs closer to the stature of JMU and Delaware than that of URI. Similarly, had NDSU been I-AA in 1984 instead of 2004 they probably would've been part of the group that went Big West => WAC = MWC.

[grayghost06]

So let me ask you this. Do you find no fault whatsoever in charging more for less, as long as the students aren't being charged a fee to support the Athletic Dept? The college landscape, especially at the FCS level, is littered with lower rated schools who charge substantially more than JMU and deliver far less for the entirety of the college experience. That's the crime from where I'm sitting. That is ok with you? We are not even above the mean within our own state in terms of total cost of attendance. Different laws and accounting procedures across the country dictate how money is apportioned. If it weren't a line item the way we currently do it, it would be "factored" in by some other creative accounting manner...just like other schools do it.


80% of your athletic department is funded by student fees - that's a **** of a lot more than an accounting game.

An accounting game is what UNI is forced to play. UNI needs to "borrow" 4 million from the general fund to subsidize the athletic department. That money goes to scholarships which is a check written right back to the university general fund. Meanwhile accounting, business, education, etc... scholarships don't have to follow that same rule.

40 million in student fees being routed to the athletic department isn't an accounting games.


You can point fingers and go "Look at what this school does. They do X so us doing Y doesn't matter". Doesn't change the fact that a top 6 level FBS conference isn't going to invite a school that gets 80-90% of it's budget from student fees while the school claims it will use less student fees if the conference invites it with no proof of that happening

Still doesn't answer the question that I took issue with. Why are you bent out of shape that JMU needs to "rape students fees" as you put it? If how they approach funding at the present doesn't bother you, you certainly wouldn't have phrased it that way. It's the bottom line figure, the amount written on the tuition check that matters-nothing else. If our total tuition cost was at the high end within the state, then there might be an argument. It's not even close. It gets real old, year after year, to re-explain this.

If a prospective student thinks going to West Podunk State U for more money and no student fees is a better deal, then more power to them. Lunkheads need not apply. If some kids' parents take umbrage that more of our total mandatory fees go to athletics than other state schools, so be it. Go to George Mason, Virginia Tech, Longwood or, Mary Washington. You'll still pay more, but at least you can sleep at night knowing less of your fees were supporting sports.

*Forbes and Kiplinger both state JMU offers a Top 100 value ( hence the large proportion of Jerseyites willing to pay out of state tuition).
*The Princeton Review in 2017 listed JMU in their Top 50 schools regarding return on investment. The criteria was tuition incl fees, starting and mid career salaries.
* In 2018 The Wall Street Journal ranked JMU students #1 in the country on "How likely they would be to recommend their current college or university to friends/family considering going to college.

All said, it doesn't sound like the students feel violated because a portion of their ALREADY low total cost was being allocated to the athletic program. It's not a burden. Quite the contrary.

I harbor no illusions that JMU will get an AAC invite at this juncture. I am equally certain that they will not move to the MAC, Sun Belt or C-USA, at least not the way they are set up now. Those conferences make no sense financially for us, along with a myriad of other reasons. As far as how JMU currently funds their athletics, they are doing what needs to be done at this particular time, given the circumstances that they find themselves in for what they want to accomplish. JMU doesn't have the luxury of having played top level football for 120 years. JMU has only fielded a varsity team since 1974 and have only offered scholarships for 30 years. Additionally, the school has only a 50 year history of full time male students, so our war chest is not where we need it to be. JMU now enrolls over 20k full time undergrads and graduates 4000 new alums each year. As the total living alumni keeps increasing, so will the donations. I doubt the total current fee/subsidy will ever be reduced much should JMU reclassify; it will stay the around the same. But in theory, a reclassification should bring in more money from ticket sales, donations, advertising, guarantee games, merchandising, media rights, playoff money etc. All of that will be part of the budget which will lower the percentage that the fees account for.

And yes, JMU is around 80% student fee funding for the athletic budget now. So what. ODU was at 75 % before moving to FBS. We both are under the same mandate by the Commonwealth as of 2016. ODU as a G5 member had to gradually reduce student subsidy to 55% by 2025 . I believe they are around 62% now. JMU has to be at 70% as an FCS member, though I am unsure what the phase-in time is. C-USA publics average about a 60 % student subsidy rate and AAC publics about 45%. If there is one thing I trust our CFO Charlie King on, it's the financials. He is a master in that arena. King, is confident that money will not be a stumbling block should the right opportunity present itself. Now, what he thinks is the right opportunity remains to be seen. He is ultra conservative. However, if C-USA schools are currently being considered for AAC membership, even with their low athletic budgets and 60% reliance on subsidies, it's not out of the realm to make our case. And neither you or I really know what the driving force will be for the AAC's decision.

[BDKJMU]

Yes.
Will JMU? No.

[Professor Chaos]

Still doesn't answer the question that I took issue with. Why are you bent out of shape that JMU needs to "rape students fees" as you put it? If how they approach funding at the present doesn't bother you, you certainly wouldn't have phrased it that way. It's the bottom line figure, the amount written on the tuition check that matters-nothing else. If our total tuition cost was at the high end within the state, then there might be an argument. It's not even close. It gets real old, year after year, to re-explain this.

If a prospective student thinks going to West Podunk State U for more money and no student fees is a better deal, then more power to them. Lunkheads need not apply. If some kids' parents take umbrage that more of our total mandatory fees go to athletics than other state schools, so be it. Go to George Mason, Virginia Tech, Longwood or, Mary Washington. You'll still pay more, but at least you can sleep at night knowing less of your fees were supporting sports.

*Forbes and Kiplinger both state JMU offers a Top 100 value ( hence the large proportion of Jerseyites willing to pay out of state tuition).
*The Princeton Review in 2017 listed JMU in their Top 50 schools regarding return on investment. The criteria was tuition incl fees, starting and mid career salaries.
* In 2018 The Wall Street Journal ranked JMU students #1 in the country on "How likely they would be to recommend their current college or university to friends/family considering going to college.

All said, it doesn't sound like the students feel violated because a portion of their ALREADY low total cost was being allocated to the athletic program. It's not a burden. Quite the contrary.

I harbor no illusions that JMU will get an AAC invite at this juncture. I am equally certain that they will not move to the MAC, Sun Belt or C-USA, at least not the way they are set up now. Those conferences make no sense financially for us, along with a myriad of other reasons. As far as how JMU currently funds their athletics, they are doing what needs to be done at this particular time, given the circumstances that they find themselves in for what they want to accomplish. JMU doesn't have the luxury of having played top level football for 120 years. JMU has only fielded a varsity team since 1974 and have only offered scholarships for 30 years. Additionally, the school has only a 50 year history of full time male students, so our war chest is not where we need it to be. JMU now enrolls over 20k full time undergrads and graduates 4000 new alums each year. As the total living alumni keeps increasing, so will the donations. I doubt the total current fee/subsidy will ever be reduced much should JMU reclassify; it will stay the around the same. But in theory, a reclassification should bring in more money from ticket sales, donations, advertising, guarantee games, merchandising, media rights, playoff money etc. All of that will be part of the budget which will lower the percentage that the fees account for.

And yes, JMU is around 80% student fee funding for the athletic budget now. So what. ODU was at 75 % before moving to FBS. We both are under the same mandate by the Commonwealth as of 2016. ODU as a G5 member had to gradually reduce student subsidy to 55% by 2025 . I believe they are around 62% now. JMU has to be at 70% as an FCS member, though I am unsure what the phase-in time is. C-USA publics average about a 60 % student subsidy rate and AAC publics about 45%. If there is one thing I trust our CFO Charlie King on, it's the financials. He is a master in that arena. King, is confident that money will not be a stumbling block should the right opportunity present itself. Now, what he thinks is the right opportunity remains to be seen. He is ultra conservative. However, if C-USA schools are currently being considered for AAC membership, even with their low athletic budgets and 60% reliance on subsidies, it's not out of the realm to make our case. And neither you or I really know what the driving force will be for the AAC's decision.
This is an interesting case study on higher education in general to me. JMU charges between $1500-$2000 per year per undergrad for athletics and UVA charges $0 per year per undergrad for athletics yet tuition at UVA is more expensive (and apparently by quite a bit). Just goes to show how bloated higher education has become at some places. It's no wonder that our collective student debt in this country continues to expand exponentially.

[uni88]

This is an interesting case study on higher education in general to me. JMU charges between $1500-$2000 per year per undergrad for athletics and UVA charges $0 per year per undergrad for athletics yet tuition at UVA is more expensive (and apparently by quite a bit). Just goes to show how bloated higher education has become at some places. It's no wonder that our collective student debt in this country continues to expand exponentially.I don't why UVA is more expensive but it is one of the top ten public universities in the US so you could argue that it's worth more money. And this isn't meant as derogatory toward JMU, JMU is a very good school and a good value for the dollar.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[clenz]

This is an interesting case study on higher education in general to me. JMU charges between $1500-$2000 per year per undergrad for athletics and UVA charges $0 per year per undergrad for athletics yet tuition at UVA is more expensive (and apparently by quite a bit). Just goes to show how bloated higher education has become at some places. It's no wonder that our collective student debt in this country continues to expand exponentially.
One could also argue that student debt is an issue because schools don't know how to fund raise/generate revenue for auxiliary programs and rather than doing so they charge students an extra $8,000 to fund their football stadium, football team, women swim team, etc.

[Pinnum]

I actually think Buffalo is in the perfect spot for themselves in the MAC -- no natural rival but geography-wise remember that you can drive from the far border of Western NY to the Ohio border in about 40 minutes.

The SUNYs as a whole were very late to the Division I sports game, much like the Dakotas. Otherwise maybe UB would be in a higher league now and perhaps Stony Brook and Albany would be programs closer to the stature of JMU and Delaware than that of URI. Similarly, had NDSU been I-AA in 1984 instead of 2004 they probably would've been part of the group that went Big West => WAC = MWC.

You're correct. NYS has potential but the potential is still a ways from being realized, in part due to joining the college sports world so late.

But your point about the Geography of Buffalo... Yes, the WNY boarder is 40 minutes from Ohio. But there is also no population in that area. Buffalo itself is two hours from the PA boarder and nearly 3 hours from the Ohio boarder. Nearly all the UB
students and alumni live east of the school, meaning they are actually further away. And the largest concentration of UB students and alumni is actually in the NYC metro area which is a minimum of 6 hours away from UB. But more importantly, from the NYC metro area, the fastest route to Ohio is Yonkers to Youngstown (taking RT 80 through PA) and that is 9 hours.

Yes, Buffalo doesn't seem to be an outlier for the MAC but Buffalo is already an outlier for it's students and alumni. It makes more sense for Buffalo to be in a conference with representation to the east that is closer to their students and alumni.

[Pinnum]

One could also argue that student debt is an issue because schools don't know how to fund raise/generate revenue for auxiliary programs and rather than doing so they charge students an extra $8,000 to fund their football stadium, football team, women swim team, etc.

One could argue that student debt is an issue because schools over spend on things that students don't actually want but it is bundled with things they want and that requires them to pass the costs on to students.

Kind of like how the cable companies were able to force people to pay for things they don't want in order to get the things they want.

[Pinnum]

How do these teams keep getting brought up for discussion in an FBS upgrade? They are about the last teams I would consider from the CAA. UB is the de facto flagship in most ways. Albany could only conceivably be a forced made up rivalry. Stony Brook is a fine place but wouldn't have a single FBS peer institution. Not to mention, neither has much possibility of fan potential.

That's not to say anyone else (other than JMU) would move up, but at least the small state flagships have better cases for who they would attempt to draw support from. No one on Long Island can identify with Stony Brook.

Delaware feasibly could but I don't think it would fare very well. Why be fodder for UConn?

They are currently not ready for FBS, sure. But they have the most potential. If the Schools would have gone D1 just 10 years earlier they may very well be D1 already. Buffalo and Stony Brook are natural rivals. Especially with so many Buffalo alumni on long island. Both are state schools and some of the best research schools in the country.

Delaware could and I wouldn't be surprised if they got more support if they made the jump and played better brands. And you say they would be UConn fodder, but I don't think that's the case. At least, not any more than Boston College is for the teams in the ACC or Rutgers is for the teams in the Big 10.

[clenz]

One could argue that student debt is an issue because schools over spend on things that students don't actually want but it is bundled with things they want and that requires them to pass the costs on to students.

Kind of like how the cable companies were able to force people to pay for things they don't want in order to get the things they want.
You backed up my point - not sure if you meant too

JMU spent how many tens of millions of dollars on their stadium and used student fees to do so. They have an 8 million dollar football budget at the FCS level almost exclusively on the backs of students.

99.999% of JMU students couldn't give a **** less about 95% plus of what JMU spends money on through athletics yet they fund 36 million dollars of a 40 million dollar budget.

The same is largely true across every single athletic department across the US - UNI included. Difference is UNI's fees that go to the athletic department are like $200 per year. Actually that's not true. $200 or $250 or whatever it is is the activities fee which is split between athletic department and the department of rec. I think athletics directly actually gets less than half of that $250

[CHIP72]

I would have thought the quickest way to drive between NYC and Buffalo would be to drive from NYC to Scranton via I-80 and I-380, I-81 from Scranton to Binghamton, and either I-86/NY 17, I-390, and I-90 or I-81 (to Syracuse) and I-90 to Buffalo. Part of the drive does involve going through PA, but the I-80 portion of the drive is relatively short.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I would have thought the quickest way to drive between NYC and Buffalo would be to drive from NYC to Scranton via I-80 and I-380, I-81 from Scranton to Binghamton, and either I-86/NY 17, I-390, and I-90 or I-81 (to Syracuse) and I-90 to Buffalo. Part of the drive does involve going through PA, but the I-80 portion of the drive is relatively short.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would take 80 to 380 to 81, get off at the Clarks Summit exit then take route 6 through Northern PA to Waverly, NY. From there 86 to 390 to 90. I'll be heading to UB for the Temple game in mid-September. I travel to Western NY quite a bit (I follow the Bills). Love the area!!

[grayghost06]

One could also argue that student debt is an issue because schools don't know how to fund raise/generate revenue for auxiliary programs and rather than doing so they charge students an extra $8,000 to fund their football stadium, football team, women swim team, etc.

Once again, you have missed the point. JMU's total cost of attendance, which includes mandatory fees (at any school), is below the median for VA state schools. If a kid goes to Tech or Mason, you will be paying MORE. There is NO EXTRA DEBT heaped upon the students. You either have an agenda or are arguing for the sake of arguing.

[clenz]

Once again, you have missed the point. JMU's total cost of attendance, which includes mandatory fees (at any school), is below the median for VA state schools. If a kid goes to Tech or Mason, you will be paying MORE. There is NO EXTRA DEBT heaped upon the students. You either have an agenda or are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yes - my agenda is using students to prop up athletic departments is bull****.

I'll freely admit to a bias on this one.

Imagine how affordable JMU would be if you could figure out how to fund raise and get sponsors.

Imagine each student adding that 2000 into university/academic related fees rather than funding your dick measuring stadium expansion

[Pinnum]

You backed up my point - not sure if you meant too


Schools overspend. Overspending on athletics is one of many problems.

We are in agreement.

The problem with JMU and schools like them is that the students aren't actually paying these fees but financing them. They are acting as the school's lender.

The average student at JMU finances $6,300 a year for an average debt load of roughly $30k when they graduate (since many students don't graduate in four years).

But every year roughly $1,300 of the fees students have to pay is grouped into their overall expenses and since they can't cover the whole bill, the have to finance that amount. This has the effect of students taking out loans to fund the athletic department.

If there were no student athletic fee, students would see their debt load fall from $30k at graduation to $24k at graduation. Using the standard repayment schedule and interest rates, this would mean the average monthly student loan payment would fall from about $350 to $275 a month. And the student would save over $11k over the life of the standard repayment schedule (even more if they ever refinanced to extend the loan).

Do the students at JMU actually value their athletic department enough to pay that much? If there is really a college debt issue, shouldn't we have an honest discussion about what is causing it?

[Pinnum]

Once again, you have missed the point. JMU's total cost of attendance, which includes mandatory fees (at any school), is below the median for VA state schools. If a kid goes to Tech or Mason, you will be paying MORE. There is NO EXTRA DEBT heaped upon the students. You either have an agenda or are arguing for the sake of arguing.

You're looking at the sticker price, not the net cost of attendance. It doesn't matter what price a school advertises, it only matters who much you actually have to pay to attend the school. And this amount changes based on the financial situation on the student's family.

So let's actually look at some real data...



instnm
Average net price (income 30 001-48 000)-students awarded Title IV federal financial aid 2016-17 (SFA1617)


University of Virginia-Main Campus
9809


James Madison University
13312


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
14143


George Mason University
16093








instnm
Average net price (income 48 001-75 000)-students awarded Title IV federal financial aid 2016-17 (SFA1617)


University of Virginia-Main Campus
14335


James Madison University
17194


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
18078


George Mason University
19233







instnm
Average net price (income 75 001-110 000)-students awarded Title IV federal financial aid 2016-17 (SFA1617)


George Mason University
21825


University of Virginia-Main Campus
22099


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
22235


James Madison University
22419









instnm
Average net price (income over 110 000)-students awarded Title IV federal financial aid 2016-17 (SFA1617)


George Mason University
24223


James Madison University
24355


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
24809


University of Virginia-Main Campus
29044





But this doesn't tell us anything about the value, or utility of these products. This only tells us what the school is actually charging for these students to attend the school.

We can judge the quality of the product a few ways... like salary of graduates or ranking of the school.



Institution
Early Career Pay


University of Virginia-Main Campus
$62,300


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
$60,900


George Mason University
$57,200


James Madison University
$55,800







Institution
Mid-Career Pay


University of Virginia-Main Campus
$119,900


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
$112,800


George Mason University
$106,200


James Madison University
$103,200








Institution
Forbes College Rankings


University of Virginia-Main Campus
34


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
110


George Mason University
143


James Madison University
169






Institution
Wall Street Journal/Times Higher Education College Rankings 2019


University of Virginia-Main Campus
51


Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
106


George Mason University
231


James Madison University
328




So, it would make sense that JMU cost less. Because if they are competing on quality, there isn't an indication that they would win that competition. And if they are really seeking to compete providing the best value for the price, they likely should be charging less to further improve their value proposition...

But that's just my two cents...

[DFW HOYA]

There's a certain tiering in many state school systems and Virginia is no exception. It's roughly as follows:

The flagship (Virginia)
The land grant (VPI)
The legacy colleges (William & Mary, VMI)
The regional universities (JMU, George Mason, Old Dominion, VCU)
The smaller rural universities (Radford, Longwood)
The HBCU's (Virginia State, Norfolk State)
The smaller liberal arts colleges (Christopher Newport, Mary Washington, Wise)
Community colleges

In 2016, JMU's per-FTE funding was among the bottom half of schools in the commonwealth. If they got the state aid per FTE that VCU received, it would amount to nearly $112 million more per year, or an additional $5,421 per FTE.

See page 16 on the link below.

https://www.odu.edu/content/dam/odu/offices/budget-office/docs/opplan2018-final.pdf

[Pinnum]

I would have thought the quickest way to drive between NYC and Buffalo would be to drive from NYC to Scranton via I-80 and I-380, I-81 from Scranton to Binghamton, and either I-86/NY 17, I-390, and I-90 or I-81 (to Syracuse) and I-90 to Buffalo. Part of the drive does involve going through PA, but the I-80 portion of the drive is relatively short.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If this is in reply to my comment, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying the majority of the alumni and students homes are 9 hours from the Ohio boarder so there isn't really any connection to a conference where the nearest schools in the conference are in Ohio.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

If this is in reply to my comment, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I am saying the majority of the alumni and students homes are 9 hours from the Ohio boarder so there isn't really any connection to a conference where the nearest schools in the conference are in Ohio.

While I agree that the vast majority of New York's population is well east of Buffalo, the university still has Rochester and Syracuse to pull from. Both of those cities comprise fairly large metro areas.

Buffalo is a great school and I certainly wouldn't have an issue with them being in the AAC. As presently constructed they're a better fit than JMU imo. My only complaint with Buffalo is their campus is hideous (a SUNY trademark) and their football stadium is equally awful. The bball arena isn't anything to write home about but it does have a quirky coolness to it. Academically it's a very good school. It fits the urban/suburban AAC mold.

[Pinnum]

While I agree that the vast majority of New York's population is well east of Buffalo, the university still has Rochester and Syracuse to pull from. Both of those cities comprise fairly large metro areas.



Syracuse is still a ways away from Buffalo--three hours. But Syracuse is basically the center of the states so let's say that the division of the state is Syracuse. I will even put all of Syracuse into the West to inflate the numbers to favor Buffalo.

New York State has a population of 19 Million.

Erie County (Buffalo) has a population of 920k.
Monroe Country (Rochester) has a population of 750k.
Onondaga County (Syracuse) has a population of 475k.

That's not much of the state's population. That excludes the majority of the population that the State school serves.

So if you make a dividing line at Syracuse and include every county on the line as a Western county, you will end up with 3.5 Million people on the Buffalo side and nearly 16 million on the Eastern (NYC/Albany) side. This is why I believe UB needs to be paired with an Eastern school--UMass, UConn, Stony Brook, Albany. This puts what should be their fan base in range.

It is also the reason Syracuse has put so much of an emphasis on playing basketball and football games in NYC over the last 10 years. They need to keep their fans engaged and most of them are not in Syracuse.

[CHIP72]

FWIW, I also would have no problem with Buffalo joining the AAC. With Temple increasingly becoming a geographic outlier in that conference because Connecticut failed to put on its big boy pants in the conference and decided to go crawling back to the Big East, finding another Northeast or at least Mid-Atlantic school that could be an all sports member would be preferable. Buffalo probably fits that description the best. It is also in a relatively large, urban market, something true of all football-playing members except East Carolina (and even non-football member Wichita State plays in a decent-sized metro area).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UAalum72]

Syracuse is still a ways away from Buffalo--three hours. But Syracuse is basically the center of the states so let's say that the division of the state is Syracuse. I will even put all of Syracuse into the West to inflate the numbers to favor Buffalo.


New York State has a population of 19 Million.

Erie County (Buffalo) has a population of 920k.
Monroe Country (Rochester) has a population of 750k.
Onondaga County (Syracuse) has a population of 475k.

That's not much of the state's population. That excludes the majority of the population that the State school servesAlso over 215K in Niagara County, but your point holds.

[tierre]

This is no hating on James madison at all but $1500 a year is too much money for a student to have to be paying. Thats over $6,000 before they graduate. If what is said is true that 75% to 80% of your budget is paid for by the students then that is not good. You are robbing peter to pay paul. Your athletic budget should come from ticket sales, alumni, donations, etc.

[Sitting Bull]

There's a certain tiering in many state school systems and Virginia is no exception. It's roughly as follows:

The flagship (Virginia)
The land grant (VPI)
The legacy colleges (William & Mary, VMI)
The regional universities (JMU, George Mason, Old Dominion, VCU)
The smaller rural universities (Radford, Longwood)
The HBCU's (Virginia State, Norfolk State)
The smaller liberal arts colleges (Christopher Newport, Mary Washington, Wise)
Community colleges

In 2016, JMU's per-FTE funding was among the bottom half of schools in the commonwealth. If they got the state aid per FTE that VCU received, it would amount to nearly $112 million more per year, or an additional $5,421 per FTE.

See page 16 on the link below.

https://www.odu.edu/content/dam/odu/offices/budget-office/docs/opplan2018-final.pdf

Actually, I think Virginia is a bit more distinct than your tiering system with W&M though your overall tier is pretty spot on.

I believe Virginia and California are the only States to have two Public Ivies. In Virginia, it's UVA and W&M. I think it may also apply to the top 35 ranked by US News. So yes a legacy is ok coupled with VMI though it sells W&M a bit short in my view.

I would probably link UR and VMI as the legacy schools. W&M would be better tagged as the Public Ivy. UVA as the flagship is also correct.

The other area dismissed here are the more academic D3 schools in VA. They would include Washington & Lee, Randolph Macon, Hampden Sydney and Emory and Henry. They are considered a breed apart from Christopher Newport and Mary Washington.

Lastly, there are notable women's colleges such as Sweet Briar and Mary Baldwin.

[uni88]

Actually, I think Virginia is a bit more distinct than your tiering system with W&M though your overall tier is pretty spot on.

I believe Virginia and California are the only States to have two Public Ivies. In Virginia, it's UVA and W&M. I think it may also apply to the top 35 ranked by US News. So yes a legacy is ok coupled with VMI though it sells W&M a bit short in my view.

I would probably link UR and VMI as the legacy schools. W&M would be better tagged as the Public Ivy. UVA as the flagship is also correct.

The other area dismissed here are the more academic D3 schools in VA. They would include Washington & Lee, Randolph Macon, Hampden Sydney and Emory and Henry. They are considered a breed apart from Christopher Newport and Mary Washington.

Lastly, there are notable women's colleges such as Sweet Briar and Mary Baldwin.You forgot the cherry on top of the sundae that is Virginia ... Liberty.


:P

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Sitting Bull]

You forgot the cherry on top of the sundae that is Virginia ... Liberty.


:P

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Very true! As I grew up in Virginia, it was Liberty Baptist and I guess in my mind, I associated it more as a Seminary than a University.

I mean Liberty no disrespect, I think what they have accomplished in Lynchburg has been nothing short of amazing. I've never run across a negative association with the University, everyone I have met have been positive people.

i don't know how I would rate them in the tiering, probably a national demoniational University, like BYU. I do see them as another positive in the State, have no hate for who they are.

[lionsrking2]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Yu4InXYAUzg0C.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

Why would Memphis be associated with these schools? it's like placing Louisville in the MAC.

[FUBeAR]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Yu4InXYAUzg0C.jpg
We already have a Southern Conference in D1 College Athletics. Been around quite a while - it’s the trademarked brand that gave birth to the SEC & the ACC. That name ain’t gonna fly.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4809:t0tpq5.2.22

[lionsrking2]

Why would Memphis be associated with these schools? it's like placing Louisville in the MAC.

It's in concept stage right now (obviously), and there are several scenarios. A lot depends on what happens with the AAC. The original scenario has Western Kentucky and Georgia State. I'm sure both Memphis and Tulane would seek higher ground if there's an AAC shakeup but both could get left in the cold.

[Sitting Bull]

Why would Memphis be associated with these schools? it's like placing Louisville in the MAC.

Ditto Tulane

[clenz]

We already have a Southern Conference in D1 College Athletics. Been around quite a while - it’s the trademarked brand that gave birth to the SEC & the ACC. That name ain’t gonna fly.

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4809:t0tpq5.2.22And that's the Southern 12

Not the same thing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[FUBeAR]

And that's the Southern 12

Not the same thing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

https://www.uspto.gov/page/about-trademark-infringement

Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services.

To support a trademark infringement claim in court, a plaintiff must prove that it owns a valid mark, that it has priority (its rights in the mark(s) are "senior" to the defendant's), and that the defendant's mark is likely to cause confusion in the minds of consumers about the source or sponsorship of the goods or services offered under the parties' marks.

Generally, the court will consider evidence addressing various factors to determine whether there is a likelihood of confusion among consumers. The key factors considered in most cases are the degree of similarity between the marks at issue and whether the parties' goods and/or services are sufficiently related that consumers are likely to assume (mistakenly) that they come from a common source. Other factors that courts typically consider include how and where the parties' goods or services are advertised, marketed, and sold; the purchasing conditions; the range of prospective purchasers of the goods or services; whether there is any evidence of actual confusion caused by the allegedly infringing mark; the defendant's intent in adopting its mark; and the strength of the plaintiff's mark.

The particular factors considered in a likelihood-of-confusion determination, as well as the weighing of those factors, vary from case to case. And the amount and quality of the evidence involved can have a significant impact on the outcome of an infringement lawsuit.

In addition to claiming likelihood of confusion, a trademark owner may claim trademark "dilution," asserting that it owns a famous mark and the use of your mark diminishes the strength or value of the trademark owner's mark by "blurring" the mark's distinctiveness or "tarnishing" the mark's image by connecting it to something distasteful or objectionable-even if there is no likelihood of confusion.


———————————


“The Southern 12 Conference” or “Southern 12” or “Southern 12 Conference” operating as an entity associated with NCAA Division 1 Collegiate Athletics would most certainly infringe upon The Southern Conference’s legally registered name/trademark/service mark. This fantasy of someone, if it ever were realized, would not be able to use this as their name. I’d stake my law degree on it...if I had one.

What say you Paladin Fan (Mercer Law Graduate)???

[grayghost06]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Yu4InXYAUzg0C.jpg

An alignment like that makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons . As previously mentioned, doubt Memphis would go for it, but it couldn't hurt to put out feelers and keep them in the loop. A lot of AAC schools hope to get on that last lifeboat off the Titanic when/if the P5s expand again. While the AAC if attractive now for Memphis, not so sure how attractive it'd still be if Houston, Cincinnati and UCF left and somehow Memphis got left behind. I could only see Memphis joining if the P4 filled up to 16 teams each and they realized P5 dreams are over. But for the rest of those schools, it'd be a pretty good, relatively compact conference. Best to be one of the proactive schools should CUSA and Sun Belt try to better regionalize.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.

No it isn't.

1. It's one guy on Twitter with a few dozen followers.

2. There's zero chance Memphis and Tulane would join that conference even if the AAC did get raided by the Big 12.

3. If you go with that guy's original idea and replace Memphis and Tulane with WKU and Georgia State, Troy isn't going to join that league when they can be with Georgia Southern, Marshall, and App State, and if they don't join that league South Alabama and UAB are probably gone too and the whole concept falls apart.

[clenz]

https://www.uspto.gov/page/about-trademark-infringement

Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services.

To support a trademark infringement claim in court, a plaintiff must prove that it owns a valid mark, that it has priority (its rights in the mark(s) are "senior" to the defendant's), and that the defendant's mark is likely to cause confusion in the minds of consumers about the source or sponsorship of the goods or services offered under the parties' marks.

Generally, the court will consider evidence addressing various factors to determine whether there is a likelihood of confusion among consumers. The key factors considered in most cases are the degree of similarity between the marks at issue and whether the parties' goods and/or services are sufficiently related that consumers are likely to assume (mistakenly) that they come from a common source. Other factors that courts typically consider include how and where the parties' goods or services are advertised, marketed, and sold; the purchasing conditions; the range of prospective purchasers of the goods or services; whether there is any evidence of actual confusion caused by the allegedly infringing mark; the defendant's intent in adopting its mark; and the strength of the plaintiff's mark.

The particular factors considered in a likelihood-of-confusion determination, as well as the weighing of those factors, vary from case to case. And the amount and quality of the evidence involved can have a significant impact on the outcome of an infringement lawsuit.

In addition to claiming likelihood of confusion, a trademark owner may claim trademark "dilution," asserting that it owns a famous mark and the use of your mark diminishes the strength or value of the trademark owner's mark by "blurring" the mark's distinctiveness or "tarnishing" the mark's image by connecting it to something distasteful or objectionable-even if there is no likelihood of confusion.


———————————


“The Southern 12 Conference” or “Southern 12” or “Southern 12 Conference” operating as an entity associated with NCAA Division 1 Collegiate Athletics would most certainly infringe upon The Southern Conference’s legally registered name/trademark/service mark. This fantasy of someone, if it ever were realized, would not be able to use this as their name. I’d stake my law degree on it...if I had one.

What say you Paladin Fan (Mercer Law Graduate)???
Big 10
Big 12
Big East
Big South
Big Sky
Big West

And then

CAA
CAA Football

American East
American Athletic

And then

Mid American
Mid Eastern

And then

Missouri Valley
Missouri Valley Football

And then maybe even West Coast and Western Athletic


All should sue each other because they also all start the same and this clearly trademark and copywrite infringement


Right?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[lionsrking2]

No it isn't.

1. It's one guy on Twitter with a few dozen followers.

2. There's zero chance Memphis and Tulane would join that conference even if the AAC did get raided by the Big 12.

3. If you go with that guy's original idea and replace Memphis and Tulane with WKU and Georgia State, Troy isn't going to join that league when they can be with Georgia Southern, Marshall, and App State, and if they don't join that league South Alabama and UAB are probably gone too and the whole concept falls apart.

It's one Twitter account but it's not just one guy on twitter.

[PAllen]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Yu4InXYAUzg0C.jpg

What's the draw for Rice?

[lionsrking2]

What's the draw for Rice?

You would have to ask them. What's the draw in CUSA?

[PAllen]

You would have to ask them. What's the draw in CUSA?

It was the top tier mid major conference and a place to stay until the Big XII came calling. Plus they had Houston as a cross town rival.

[lionsrking2]

It was the top tier mid major conference and a place to stay until the Big XII came calling. Plus they had Houston as a cross town rival.

That was then, this is now. Rice doesn't have Houston as a crosstown conference rival and the Big 12 isn't going to call.

[Schism55]

In the meantime, this is gaining some quiet but serious momentum ... not sure if this alignment would have a domino effect.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_Yu4InXYAUzg0C.jpg
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that is called the poo poo platter.

[FUBeAR]

Big 10
Big 12
Big East
Big South
Big Sky
Big West

And then

CAA
CAA Football

American East
American Athletic

And then

Mid American
Mid Eastern

And then

Missouri Valley
Missouri Valley Football

And then maybe even West Coast and Western Athletic


All should sue each other because they also all start the same and this clearly trademark and copywrite infringement


Right?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalknice list. don’t care. each situation is unique.

As long as The Southern Conference (the real one, founded in 1921) is in existence as an NCAA D1 Athletic Conference, there will not be another NCAA D1 Athletic Conference using “Southern Conference” in their name without significantly more substantial modification than inserting an integer into The Southern Conference’s legally protected brand.

While we’re waiting for that to NOT happen, go start yourself up a beverage company, call your product “Coca-12-Cola”...and let FUBeAR know how fast your cease and desist demand letter arrives.

[lionsrking2]

nice list. don’t care. each situation is unique.

As long as The Southern Conference (the real one, founded in 1921) is in existence as an NCAA D1 Athletic Conference, there will not be another NCAA D1 Athletic Conference using “Southern Conference” in their name without significantly more substantial modification than inserting an integer into The Southern Conference’s legally protected brand.

While we’re waiting for that to NOT happen, go start yourself up a beverage company, call your product “Coca-12-Cola”...and let FUBeAR know how fast your cease and desist demand letter arrives.

Not a good analogy.

[Nor Eastern]

From everything that is known publicly I don't think you're going to be able to blow up the nucleus of the Sun Belt easily. The members seem happy with each member having a travel partner and their media deal works for them (500 conference matches on ESPN network each year). Troy, App, and Georgia Southern seem to be very happy to be associated with each other in division. Troy's admin wants to maintain a game with USA, GS with GaSt and App wants both Troy, GS and likes that CCU will be hosting a bowl game starting in 2020.

This Southern 12 is a pipe dream for multiple reasons.

[FUBeAR]

Not a good analogy.
Thanks for your opinion.

IMO, it’s a near-perfect analogy.

Read post #115 and delineate which elements of the US Patents & Trademarks Office’s “About Trademark Infringement / How Do I Know if I’m Infringing” advice are NOT present in both the source & the target of the analogy. The only one I find is that no evidence of actual confusion has occurred because “The Southern 12 Conference” is not a ‘thing’...and it won’t be...not with that name.

[lionsrking2]

Thanks for your opinion.

IMO, it’s a near-perfect analogy.

Read post #115 and delineate which elements of the US Patents & Trademarks Office’s “About Trademark Infringement / How Do I Know if I’m Infringing” advice are NOT present in both the source & the target of the analogy. The only one I find is that no evidence of actual confusion has occurred because “The Southern 12 Conference” is not a ‘thing’...and it won’t be...not with that name.

Well, it's not. If it were SOCON12, you'd be on much stronger ground.

[UAalum72]

Big 10
Big 12
Big East
Big South
Big Sky
Big West

And then

CAA
CAA Football

American East
American Athletic

And then

Mid American
Mid Eastern

And then

Missouri Valley
Missouri Valley Football

And then maybe even West Coast and Western Athletic


All should sue each other because they also all start the same and this clearly trademark and copywrite infringement


Right?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TapatalkLeave Albany and Stony Brook out of this. There is no “n” in America East. One’s a noun, the other’s an adjective.

But maybe we should sue Albany State (GA). And get the various Cornell’s, Loyola’s, St. Joseph’s, et al involved.

[FUBeAR]

Well, it's not. If it were SOCON12, you'd be on much stronger ground.
The ground would be equal as “Southern Conference”



Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK


Serial Number
74082565






...AND “SoCon”...



Type of Mark
SERVICE MARK. COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK


Serial Number
75907059





...are both ‘live’ & duly registered ® & owned trademarks / service marks of:



Owner
(REGISTRANT) Southern Conference, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION NORTH CAROLINA 702 North Pine Street Spartanburg SOUTH CAROLINA 293033769



....and in active use EXACTLY the same as this proposed, hypothetical entity would propose to use “Southern Conference”...with only an inserted integer as the difference from the Registrant’s protected Service Mark.

I’m not a lawyer, but I once started a business - an online career site (job board) & unwittingly used a name (bought the domain, of course) very similar to a registered name - actually, they registered it AFTER they became aware of my entity...because I stupidly didn’t - that was similar, but not exact (just as in this case) to the name of an online newsletter they had been publishing for about 6 months. They were NOT in the job board business (at the time) - they were an industry-specific content publisher - so even further afield than in this case - but both of our usages contained the name of the industry-focus of our businesses, which was in the same industry. Cease & Desist Letter arrived & my lawyer told me he’d be happy to let me pay him to represent me in a case that I was certain to lose because they registered the similar name before I registered mine & the names were similar enough trading in the same industry / market - even though in a completely different business - that they would surely prevail because of the confusion and, possibly, the dilution claim.

Life lessons are hard. I learned a good one in that experience.

AND...I also learned this proposed name of this hypothetical NCAA Division 1 Athletics organization will NOT fly.


...unless my Message Board Barrister, Paladin Fan, sez I’m wrong here. The good news for those on the opposite of this convo is that Paladin Fan sez FUBeAR is wrong 98.44% of the time about Football & a few other non-legal topics; so he’s certainly predisposed to come down on the other side of this one also.

[lionsrking2]

The ground would be equal as both are duly & live registered ® & owned trademarks / service marks of:



Owner
(REGISTRANT) Southern Conference, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION NORTH CAROLINA 702 North Pine Street Spartanburg SOUTH CAROLINA 293033769



I’m not a lawyer, but I once started a business - an online career site (job board) & unwittingly used a name (bought the domain, of course) very similar to a registered name - actually, they registered it AFTER they became aware of my entity...because I stupidly didn’t - that was similar, but not exact (just as in this case) to the name of an online newsletter they had been publishing for about 6 months. They were NOT in the job board business (at the time) - they were an industry-specific content publisher - so even further afield than in this case - but both of our usages contained the name of the industry-focus of our businesses, which was in the same industry. Cease & Desist Letter arrived & my lawyer told me he’d be happy to let me pay him to represent me in a case that I was certain to lose because they registered the similar name before I registered mine & the names were similar enough trading in the same industry / market - even though in a completely different business - that they would surely prevail because of the confusion and, possibly, the dilution claim.

Life lessons are hard. I learned a good one in that experience.

AND...I also learned this proposed name of this hypothetical NCAA Division 1 Athletics organization will NOT fly.

I can't speak to your personal situation, but we've down this road before. We have a Big 12, a Big Ten, and a Big East ... a Big West. The Pacific 12 Conference and the Pacific Coast Conference. The Atlantic Coast Conference and the South Atlantic Conference.

[FUBeAR]

I can't speak to your personal situation, but we've down this road before. We have a Big 12, a Big Ten, and a Big East.
And which ones of those organizations filed infringements suits against which others to defend their rights to their registered service marks?

If a registered mark is not defended and the infringing entity attains ‘famous’ usage of the same or similar mark without objection from the registrant, I’m fairly certain (still not a lawyer) the registrant loses rights to that specific incarnation of ‘their’ mark. They don’t, necessarily, lose the right to claim subsequent and/or similar future infringements and they don’t, necessarily, lose the right to use their own registered mark.

I believe the 1921-founded Southern Conference WOULD rapidly & vehemently defend their rights to their mark / brand against such an infringement. If they didn’t, then the proposed name of this hypothetical entity could be used and retained once it reached “famous” status...which it would, almost immediately...which is why I would expect swift action by the SoCon, perhaps even against the owner of this Twitter account, despite the boilerplate claim of non-affiliation in the Twitter Profile.

[lionsrking2]

And which ones of those organizations filed infringements suits against which others to defend their rights to their registered service marks?




I have no idea. Are you implying they're just being nice to each other?

[FUBeAR]

I have no idea. Are you implying they're just being nice to each other?Not implying anything. I have a sense that 1 of 2 things...or both, may allow those 3 to co-exist, perhaps have registered marks, and not have winnable infringement cases upon one another.
1) perhaps they all became ‘famous’ before big money was involved & didn’t register their marks until such a time that the others were too ‘famous’ to have a case.
2) none of the words in their names are descriptive of their purpose or service. Easy to get a trademark approved on “Mop’N’Glo” (for example). Not so much on 2 words combining a generic size & an integer or a direction/region. On the other hand, I know “B1G” and “Big Ten Network” are trademarked.

Do you think if this proposed hypothetical entity had selected “B1G South” as their name...that the Big Ten would let that ish stand for a New York minute? Nope. They own the rights to exclusive, uninfringed use of that mark & potentially confusing derivatives, as does the The Southern Conference own the words “Southern Conference” and any confusing derivatives (such as “Southern 12 Conference” clearly is), certainly derivatives in exactly the same sort of ‘business,’ in the same association, in the same division.

Bottom Line - I don’t know. And, I don’t care, unless they are parties to precedent-setting case law which could impact the SoCon’s defense of their marks. Even, in that event, I don’t care a whole lot, but DO find it interesting to consider/discuss.

Speaking of interesting, here’s a little case synopsis on a relevant case (relevant...not exactly the same...of course)...


“Another trademark case involving golf courses was Champions Golf Club, Inc., (Champions) v. The Champions Golf Club, Inc. Champions Golf Club, the plaintiff, was started in Houston in 1959 by two players who had achieved championship playing status. Their course has hosted a number of top golf events. In 1985 another course was opened in Lexington, Kentucky and was named "The Champions Golf Club." The developers of the Kentucky course claimed the name was in reference to the championship caliber of Kentucky basketball and the area's thoroughbred horses. The Houston club registered its name in 1978 with Texas and the Kentucky course registered its state trademark in 1986. In 1989 the Houston club requested the Kentucky course change its name. The request was denied. In 1990 the Houston club obtained a federal trademark registration and filed suit against the Kentucky course. The trial court found no consumer confusion and ruled in favor of the Kentucky course. The court of appeal reversed and sent the matter back to the trial court. A settlement was reached which prohibited the Kentucky club from the using the name "Champions" and the singular term "Champion" unless it is combined with another term.”


...and a related FUNNY anecdote.

In the late 90’s, the Tampa Bay Bucs sent a Cease & Desist letter to D3 Beloit College regarding their 20 year usage of the Buccaneers as their mascot & a similar emblem to TB’s. Beloit’s President responded to their letter challenging them to settle the matter on the field - winner take all. The Bucs declined and slinked away from their demand. xlolx

[clenz]

And which ones of those organizations filed infringements suits against which others to defend their rights to their registered service marks?

If a registered mark is not defended and the infringing entity attains ‘famous’ usage of the same or similar mark without objection from the registrant, I’m fairly certain (still not a lawyer) the registrant loses rights to that specific incarnation of ‘their’ mark. They don’t, necessarily, lose the right to claim subsequent and/or similar future infringements and they don’t, necessarily, lose the right to use their own registered mark.

I believe the 1921-founded Southern Conference WOULD rapidly & vehemently defend their rights to their mark / brand against such an infringement. If they didn’t, then the proposed name of this hypothetical entity could be used and retained once it reached “famous” status...which it would, almost immediately...which is why I would expect swift action by the SoCon, perhaps even against the owner of this Twitter account, despite the boilerplate claim of non-affiliation in the Twitter Profile.

Shocking

The southern area of the US would once again be in the wrong side of absolutely rapidly and vehemently defend their "rights" and lose again

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[FUBeAR]

Shocking

The southern area of the US would once again be in the wrong side of absolutely rapidly and vehemently defend their "rights" and lose again

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
LOL - that’s good, especially appreciated since I just made a similarly farcical Civil War reference on another Football Message Board.

Wrong, but still funny xthumbsupx

[lionsrking2]

Not implying anything. I have a sense that 1 of 2 things...or both, may allow those 3 to co-exist, perhaps have registered marks, and not have winnable infringement cases upon one another.
1) perhaps they all became ‘famous’ before big money was involved & didn’t register their marks until such a time that the others were too ‘famous’ to have a case.
2) none of the words in their names are descriptive of their purpose or service. Easy to get a trademark approved on “Mop’N’Glo” (for example). Not so much on 2 words combining a generic size & an integer or a direction/region. On the other hand, I know “B1G” and “Big Ten Network” are trademarked.

Do you think if this proposed hypothetical entity had selected “B1G South” as their name...that the Big Ten would let that ish stand for a New York minute? Nope. They own the rights to exclusive, uninfringed use of that mark & potentially confusing derivatives, as does the The Southern Conference own the words “Southern Conference” and any confusing derivatives (such as “Southern 12 Conference” clearly is), certainly derivatives in exactly the same sort of ‘business,’ in the same association, in the same division.

Bottom Line - I donÂ’t know. And, I donÂ’t care, unless they are parties to precedent-setting case law which could impact the SoConÂ’s defense of their marks. Even, in that event, I donÂ’t care a whole lot, but DO find it interesting to consider/discuss.

Speaking of interesting, hereÂ’s a little case synopsis on a relevant case (relevant...not exactly the same...of course)...


“Another trademark case involving golf courses was Champions Golf Club, Inc., (Champions) v. The Champions Golf Club, Inc. Champions Golf Club, the plaintiff, was started in Houston in 1959 by two players who had achieved championship playing status. Their course has hosted a number of top golf events. In 1985 another course was opened in Lexington, Kentucky and was named "The Champions Golf Club." The developers of the Kentucky course claimed the name was in reference to the championship caliber of Kentucky basketball and the area's thoroughbred horses. The Houston club registered its name in 1978 with Texas and the Kentucky course registered its state trademark in 1986. In 1989 the Houston club requested the Kentucky course change its name. The request was denied. In 1990 the Houston club obtained a federal trademark registration and filed suit against the Kentucky course. The trial court found no consumer confusion and ruled in favor of the Kentucky course. The court of appeal reversed and sent the matter back to the trial court. A settlement was reached which prohibited the Kentucky club from the using the name "Champions" and the singular term "Champion" unless it is combined with another term.”


...and a related FUNNY anecdote.

In the late 90Â’s, the Tampa Bay Bucs sent a Cease & Desist letter to D3 Beloit College regarding their 20 year usage of the Buccaneers as their mascot & a similar emblem to TBÂ’s. BeloitÂ’s President responded to their letter challenging them to settle the matter on the field - winner take all. The Bucs declined and slinked away from their demand. xlolx

In your hypothetical, the B1G Ten would likely have a case because the usage of B-1-G is a unique spelling. The rest of your argument doesn't hold up in my view. The addition of the number 12 is enough of a distinction.

[FUBeAR]

In your hypothetical, the B1G Ten would likely have a case because the usage of B-1-G is a unique spelling. The rest of your argument doesn't hold up in my view. The addition of the number 12 is enough of a distinction.Let’s try some logic...

1) Is “B1G” trademark protected? Yes
2) Is “Southern Conference” trademark protected? Yes
3) Is the protection against infringement lessened for “Southern Conference” than it is for “B1G” because lionsrking’s opinion is that it is less unique? No...No, it is not. Once registered, they both enjoy the same legal protection from infringement. If the USPTO felt “Southern Conference” was not unique enough to warrant a Trademark, they would not have approved the application for protection. They are equally protected.

So, once we have established that 1-3 are TRUE (and they are...irrefutably so), then we can analyze the argument you just made...

Your contention must be...

...Altering a protected mark by inserting an 2-digit integer creates greater (>) (and sufficient) differentiation from that protected mark than does adding an entire 5-letter descriptive word to a different protected mark.

Does that really make sense to you? It just can’t.

Both cases would be ruled in favor of the plaintiffs...because...

1) both owns valid marks
2) both have priority - their rights in the mark(s) are "senior" to the defendants’
3) the defendants’ marks are likely to cause confusion in the minds of consumers about the source or sponsorship of the goods or services offered under the parties' marks

[lionsrking2]

Let’s try some logic...

1) Is “B1G” trademark protected? Yes
2) Is “Southern Conference” trademark protected? Yes
3) Is the protection against infringement lessened for “Southern Conference” than it is for “B1G” because lionsrking’s opinion is that it is less unique? No...No, it is not. Once registered, they both enjoy the same legal protection from infringement. If the USPTO felt “Southern Conference” was not unique enough to warrant a Trademark, they would not have approved the application for protection. They are equally protected.

So, once we have established that 1-3 are TRUE (and they are...irrefutably so), then we can analyze the argument you just made...

Your contention must be...

...Altering a protected mark by inserting an 2-digit integer creates greater (>) (and sufficient) differentiation from that protected mark than does adding an entire 5-letter descriptive word to a different protected mark.

Does that really make sense to you? It just can’t.

Both cases would be ruled in favor of the plaintiffs...because...

1) both owns valid marks
2) both have priority - their rights in the mark(s) are "senior" to the defendants’
3) the defendants’ marks are likely to cause confusion in the minds of consumers about the source or sponsorship of the goods or services offered under the parties' marks

Florida International University (FIU), sued Florida National University over trademark infringement. Who do you think won?

[clenz]

Hey who won the suit between Queen and Vanilla Ice?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[FUBeAR]

Florida International University (FIU), sued Florida National University over trademark infringement. Who do you think won?
As I said earlier, I don’t care, because each case of infringement is unique, but this is an interesting case ( https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1743858.html, - Court of Appeal affirming the decision) which FIU lost, for more than a few reasons in no way applicable in this case, but primarily because of...

Excluding FIU and FNU, twelve other higher education institutions in the state of Florida use both “Florida” and “University” in their names (and the letters “F” and “U” in their initials): Florida A&M University (FAMU), Florida Atlantic University (FAU), Florida Christian University (FCU), Florida Gulf Coast University (FGCU), Florida Memorial University (FMU), Florida Polytechnic University (FPU), Florida State University (FSU), University of Central Florida (UCF), University of Florida (UF), University of North Florida (UNF), University of South Florida (USF), and University of West Florida (UWF).

How many NCAA Division 1 Athletics Conferences are currently using marks similar to “Southern Conference?” I suppose we could REALLY stretch and say 3 - Southeastern Conference” & “Southland Conference” & “Southwestern Athletics Conference”...But “Florida” is “Florida” & “University” is “University” & “F” is “F” & “U” is “U.” On the the other hand, “South” ain’t “Southern” & “SoCon” ain’t even close to “SEC” or “SLC” or “SWAC.”

“Southern 12 Conference” ain’t gonna happen...not on FUBeAR’s & Paladin Fan’s watch. Where is that guy?

[Derby City Duke]

This thread hasn't drifted, it's veered over the side of the canyon and apparently hasn't hit bottom yet...:D

[FUBeAR]

Hey who won the suit between Queen and Vanilla Ice?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TapatalkFarrokh Balsura kicked a FG with David Jones holding & no time on the clock as Bobby Van Winkle’s Team melted in defeat.

[BDKJMU]

Every school is different. How does one compare the "entirety of the college experience" at JMU to that of William & Mary or Hampton, much less comparing to Princeton or Incarnate Word or Butler or Western Carolina? For example, JMU only offers six men's sports. Is that a better experience than a school that offers twice as many? No easy answers.

For a school with as many resources as it does, JMU seems tentative on next steps. A 2016 article says as such: "Outside of student fees and conference distributions, our opportunities for generating revenue are somewhat limited."

https://jmusports.com/news/2016/9/2/bourne-money-matters.aspx?path=administration
And 17 womens’ sports. Due to:
-60% women/40% men
-Title IX
-Div I football

The 6 men’s teams is the minimum for Div I. If JMU was 50/50 male/female, or there wasn’t Title IX, there would be more than 6 mens’ teams, and probably not 17 women. FWIW the only problem I have with Title IX is football is included in the equation when there’s no comparative female sport in roster size (all the other sports have either comparative mens’ & womens’ teams, or comparative roster sizes)..

Only a small % of your (full scholly) Div I football schools have 60% women. And JMU does fully fund all its sports teams. It costs more $$ (which contributes to the higher student fees) but the womens’ sports teams are overall very strong. National championships in Field Hockey, Lacrosse (last year), softball final 16 2 of the last 3 seasons, basketball has been really good in the past.

Does’t help that mens’ basketball has sucked terribly for a long time and isn’t helping things revenue wise.

[BDKJMU]

80% of your athletic department is funded by student fees - that's a **** of a lot more than an accounting game.

An accounting game is what UNI is forced to play. UNI needs to "borrow" 4 million from the general fund to subsidize the athletic department. That money goes to scholarships which is a check written right back to the university general fund. Meanwhile accounting, business, education, etc... scholarships don't have to follow that same rule.

40 million in student fees being routed to the athletic department isn't an accounting games.


You can point fingers and go "Look at what this school does. They do X so us doing Y doesn't matter". Doesn't change the fact that a top 6 level FBS conference isn't going to invite a school that gets 80-90% of it's budget from student fees while the school claims it will use less student fees if the conference invites it with no proof of that happening

2017-2018 school year about 75% of the athletic budget is student fees:
$38,932,918 student fees, $51,719,402 budget (10+ million of which alot of peer institutions don’t count in the AD budget but elswhere (facility debt services, indirect costs paid by athletics to the institution for certain university services, spirit groups)
http://www.apa.state.va.us/reports/JamesMadisonUniversityNCAA2018.pd (http://www.apa.state.va.us/reports/JamesMadisonUniversityNCAA2018.pdf)f

With close to 23k students now, that = about $1700 per student/per year.

[BDKJMU]

Yes - my agenda is using students to prop up athletic departments is bull****.

I'll freely admit to a bias on this one.

Imagine how affordable JMU would be if you could figure out how to fund raise and get sponsors.

Imagine each student adding that 2000 into university/academic related fees rather than funding your dick measuring stadium expansion

Well, its not 2k in student fees to the athletic dept. Secondly, JMU mostly fills that 25k “dick measuring stadium” regular season (playoffs drag down attendance avg some). The stadium was expanded to meet current demand and a future move up. Sure back in 2011 most JMU fans would have thought it would happened by now. It will happen in the 2020s.

Going by your # of posts on this thread on this topic, you seem awfully worked up over a school not in your conference, who rarely/never plays UNI in anything, amount of student fees going to the athletic dept.. What effect does JMU student fees have on your life?

[PAllen]

As I said earlier, I don’t care, because each case of infringement is unique, but this is an interesting case ( https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1743858.html, - Court of Appeal affirming the decision) which FIU lost, for more than a few reasons in no way applicable in this case, but primarily because of...

Excluding FIU and FNU, twelve other higher education institutions in the state of Florida use both “Florida” and “University” in their names (and the letters “F” and “U” in their initials): Florida A&M University (FAMU), Florida Atlantic University (FAU), Florida Christian University (FCU), Florida Gulf Coast University (FGCU), Florida Memorial University (FMU), Florida Polytechnic University (FPU), Florida State University (FSU), University of Central Florida (UCF), University of Florida (UF), University of North Florida (UNF), University of South Florida (USF), and University of West Florida (UWF).

How many NCAA Division 1 Athletics Conferences are currently using marks similar to “Southern Conference?” I suppose we could REALLY stretch and say 3 - Southeastern Conference” & “Southland Conference” & “Southwestern Athletics Conference”...But “Florida” is “Florida” & “University” is “University” & “F” is “F” & “U” is “U.” On the the other hand, “South” ain’t “Southern” & “SoCon” ain’t even close to “SEC” or “SLC” or “SWAC.”

“Southern 12 Conference” ain’t gonna happen...not on FUBeAR’s & Paladin Fan’s watch. Where is that guy?

So, the "South 12" it is for this conference that will never happen.

[FUBeAR]

So, the "South 12" it is for this conference that will never happen.
I was thinking “Sunny 12 Conference” - trademarked Sundial Logo with each of the 12 Teams’ Logos representing a number on the “clockface”

[clenz]

I was thinking “Sunny 12 Conference” - trademarked Sundial Logo with each of the 12 Teams’ Logos representing a number on the “clockface”
Huurrr duuurrr

SUNbelt CONFERENCE


TRADEMARKZSESZ

[FUBeAR]

Huurrr duuurrr

SUNbelt CONFERENCE


TRADEMARKZSESZAlso “Atlantic Sun” or “A-Sun” but “Sunny 12” flies anyway...”Southern 12 Conference” sinks

[Reign of Terrier]

It's been a while since I brushed up on my copyright law (I'm not a lawyer but I had to take a media law class for my masters) but it's my understanding, that as long as a name doesn't become generic, it can be protected by copyright.

So, there are multiple brands that have lost copyright claims because they became generic (escalators being one of them). In fact, I believe it's kleenex that occasionally markets something along the lines of "don't call it a kleenex" because they don't want to lose the copyright.

So, in the case of the Socon vs a hypothetical new southern conference with a derivative name, considering the south is a generic region and a conference is what it is, I don't see why the similarity in the name would be a problem in court (and I could be wrong about all of this! Haven't taken media law in over 2 years, focused more on the slander/libel/incitement case law, and of course I'm not a lawyer)

As for the topic of the thread, JMU is actually optimally positioned for a hypothetical American invite, geographically that is.

[FUBeAR]

It's been a while since I brushed up on my copyright law (I'm not a lawyer but I had to take a media law class for my masters) but it's my understanding, that as long as a name doesn't become generic, it can be protected by copyright.

So, there are multiple brands that have lost copyright claims because they became generic (escalators being one of them). In fact, I believe it's kleenex that occasionally markets something along the lines of "don't call it a kleenex" because they don't want to lose the copyright.

So, in the case of the Socon vs a hypothetical new southern conference with a derivative name, considering the south is a generic region and a conference is what it is, I don't see why the similarity in the name would be a problem in court (and I could be wrong about all of this! Haven't taken media law in over 2 years, focused more on the slander/libel/incitement case law, and of course I'm not a lawyer)

As for the topic of the thread, JMU is actually optimally positioned for a hypothetical American invite, geographically that is.
Hard to come up with 2 more generic word than “Big” and “Ten,” right?

Google up “Big Ten” AND “infringement” to see the slew of cases the Big Ten Conference has filed against any organization that uses anything that even comes close to infringing upon their brand - from Burrito restaurants to self-help websites, using vaguely similar words, numbers, etc.

In today’s world of Learfield - IMG Properties, etc., I’m really shocked that y’all don’t think The Southern Conference, an organization that legally registered & has owned the word mark “Southern Conference,” since 12/29/92, a famous brand, which has been in continuous use since 1921, would aggressively defend their rights to their mark to remain free from this type of infringement.

[clenz]

Hard to come up with 2 more generic word than “Big” and “Ten,” right?

Google up “Big Ten” AND “infringement” to see the slew of cases the Big Ten Conference has filed against any organization that uses anything that even comes close to infringing upon their brand - from Burrito restaurants to self-help websites, using vaguely similar words, numbers, etc.

In today’s world of Learfield - IMG Properties, etc., I’m really shocked that y’all don’t think The Southern Conference, an organization that legally registered & has owned the word mark “Southern Conference,” since 12/29/92, a famous brand, which has been in continuous use since 1921, would aggressively defend their rights to their mark to remain free from this type of infringement.
And yet Iowa City - just blocks from Iowa's campus The Big 10 Inn motel


The SoCon wouldn't have **** on a Southern 12 conference.

[Reign of Terrier]

Hard to come up with 2 more generic word than “Big” and “Ten,” right?

Google up “Big Ten” AND “infringement” to see the slew of cases the Big Ten Conference has filed against any organization that uses anything that even comes close to infringing upon their brand - from Burrito restaurants to self-help websites, using vaguely similar words, numbers, etc.

In today’s world of Learfield - IMG Properties, etc., I’m really shocked that y’all don’t think The Southern Conference, an organization that legally registered & has owned the word mark “Southern Conference,” since 12/29/92, a famous brand, which has been in continuous use since 1921, would aggressively defend their rights to their mark to remain free from this type of infringement.
This is a very bad argument because the organization you're referring to is called B10xB...which has a lot to do with logo, which marketable, not the name of the actual brand. Per the first article:

The Big Ten "claims that the B10xB trademark, used as a domain name and in connection with merchandise," is infringing on its trademarks and diluting the conference's brand.

emphasis mine. It's relevant that the actual logo of the Big 10 is B10, which will sell merchandise that has the B10 logo.

The other thing I found when googling that (it seems to be the only one) is a burrito place called Big Ten Burrito, which also has a similar problem in that merch (which these things inevitable have) can also have the logo which can be confusing. The merch logo is key.


And yet Iowa City - just blocks from Iowa's campus The Big 10 Inn motel


The SoCon wouldn't have **** on a Southern 12 conference.

And this is another dimension of copyright. It's relevant whether or not something easily confuse-able. The Big 10 Inn stays in Iowa (for all I know) and may predate the Big 10. It probably doesn't sell merch, so there's no danger of brand confusion.

There's a Wattaburger here in Columbia, SC and it's not the same as the Wattaburgers (I misspelled bc Idc) and the same principle applies.

Now, do you really, honestly think that just because something has the word "Southern" in it that it would be easily confused? So long as it's not branded as SoCon12 or have similar branding (think the circular logo) where it will almost certainly be confusion, it should be fine.

The other ultimate counter-argument to your "Big" point is that, if it were so true that such a claim were valid and would uphold itself in court, why didn't the Big 10 ever sue the Big 12 or vice versa? Why didn't the Big 12 sue the Pac 12?

All of this stuff is relevant and your argument is dumb

[clenz]

I decided to look at D2 conferences and found a few things that were intesting

D2
Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
Great Lakes Valley Conference
Great Midwest Athletic Conference

They all start Great and end in Conference...two of them are both Great Lakes....Conference. That certainly can't be allowed to exist. They aren't different enough...right?

Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletics Association - the MAC should have major issue with this by FUBARS logic



Mountain East Conference - awful close to Mountain West...I know it's not the same but the first and third words are the same. That would be confusing even though something was added/changed in the middle of it

And then I came across the ultimate check ****ing mate...not once...but ****ing twice
Northeast Ten Conference
Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

Well...well....well.

We have the Northeast Conference and Northeast 10 Conference. That sure sounds a **** of a lot like Southern Conference and Southern 12 Conference. What is interesting is the were formed less than a year a part - and the trademarks and copyrights were both allowed to exist and be created at the same time.



We also have a Southern *insert something here* Conference....and it's actually older than the Southern Conference since the age of the SoCon keeps coming up. If the SoCon hasn't gone after this conference there is a reason - because they won't win. Just like the Southern 12

[clenz]

A few D3 conferences that could/should also have issues based on logic presented

American Collegiate Athletic Association.....American Conference
Atlantic East Conference - America East Conference
Northeast Athletic Conference - NEC and NE10
North Eastern Athletic Conference...I mean holy ****

New England Collegiate Conference
New England Small College Athletic Conference
New England Women's and Men's Athletic Conference

Ohio Athletic Conference - Ohio Valley Conference



Southern Athletic Association

Upper Midwest Athletic Conference
Midwest Conference



I mean it's amazing how many situations like this exist that don't result in lawsuits or have and come out with "They can do that" and they are in areas that cover the exact same situation.

I mean look at the variations of North East Conference...almost all of them are identical in age and cover the exact same small geo foot print.

It won't be an issue - at all.

[lionsrking2]

This is a very bad argument because the organization you're referring to is called B10xB...which has a lot to do with logo, which marketable, not the name of the actual brand. Per the first article:

The Big Ten "claims that the B10xB trademark, used as a domain name and in connection with merchandise," is infringing on its trademarks and diluting the conference's brand.

emphasis mine. It's relevant that the actual logo of the Big 10 is B10, which will sell merchandise that has the B10 logo.

The other thing I found when googling that (it seems to be the only one) is a burrito place called Big Ten Burrito, which also has a similar problem in that merch (which these things inevitable have) can also have the logo which can be confusing. The merch logo is key.



And this is another dimension of copyright. It's relevant whether or not something easily confuse-able. The Big 10 Inn stays in Iowa (for all I know) and may predate the Big 10. It probably doesn't sell merch, so there's no danger of brand confusion.

There's a Wattaburger here in Columbia, SC and it's not the same as the Wattaburgers (I misspelled bc Idc) and the same principle applies.

Now, do you really, honestly think that just because something has the word "Southern" in it that it would be easily confused? So long as it's not branded as SoCon12 or have similar branding (think the circular logo) where it will almost certainly be confusion, it should be fine.

The other ultimate counter-argument to your "Big" point is that, if it were so true that such a claim were valid and would uphold itself in court, why didn't the Big 10 ever sue the Big 12 or vice versa? Why didn't the Big 12 sue the Pac 12?

All of this stuff is relevant and your argument is dumb


This

[FUBeAR]

This is a very bad argument because the organization you're referring to is called B10xB...which has a lot to do with logo, which marketable, not the name of the actual brand. Per the first article:

The Big Ten "claims that the B10xB trademark, used as a domain name and in connection with merchandise," is infringing on its trademarks and diluting the conference's brand.

emphasis mine. It's relevant that the actual logo of the Big 10 is B10, which will sell merchandise that has the B10 logo.

The other thing I found when googling that (it seems to be the only one) is a burrito place called Big Ten Burrito, which also has a similar problem in that merch (which these things inevitable have) can also have the logo which can be confusing. The merch logo is key.
Funny thing...or I guess we could say the dumb thing is...The Big Ten Conference DOES NOT own the “B10” trademark. Here’s the owner of that mark...



Word Mark
B10


Goods and Services
IC 031. US 001 046. G & S: Living plants. FIRST USE: 20100300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20100300


Mark Drawing Code
(4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK


Serial Number
85370349


Filing Date
July 13, 2011


Current Basis
1A


Original Filing Basis
1B


Published for Opposition
December 6, 2011


Registration Number
4226989


Registration Date
October 16, 2012


Owner
(REGISTRANT) Varieties International, LLC LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANY OREGON P.O. Box 549 Dundee OREGON 97115


Attorney of Record
Patricia A. Olosky, Registration No. 53,411


Type of Mark
TRADEMARK


Register
PRINCIPAL


Affidavit Text
SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).


Live/Dead Indicator
LIVE



...and it’s for Live Plants...and they didn’t use it until 2010, nor trademark it until 2011/12.

And another funny, or dumb thing is “B10” is NOT “the actual logo of the Big 10,” as stated by one far more knowledgeable than dumb old FUBeAR. Their logo is “B1G”...and they do own that.

BUT...they still went after “B10xB”

Y’all can point to 999,999,999 examples of similar names of ‘stuff’ in use or of entities not pursuing their trademark rights, but those are what are completely, um, irrelevant at this point. Some of them could, possibly, become relevant as a defense if case law (not just samples of usage) precedents have been established around such usages, which are deemed relevant & applicable.

The only relevant questions are around...
1) ownership of the mark “Southern Conference”
2) priority of the mark (usage & registration)
3) likelihood (or examples) of confusion in the marketplace for the consumers of the owner of the mark.

The 1st 2 answers are clear cut. The 3rd would be what would need to be adjudicated...IF...

...and that “IF” is the final (or maybe the 1st) question...Would the SoCon pursue protecting their brand against this possible infringement?

All this other foolishness is just noise.

FUBeAR’s opinions on the (only) 2 relevant questions are:
1) a reasonable, legitimate case could be made for “likelihood of confusion” AND
2) the SoCon would pursue protection of their rights of freedom from such confusing infringement.

You can disagree with either or both of those opinions and you won’t be wrong. You won’t be right either. That’s why we have courts...and message boards, I guess.

So...Please check (only) one box in each row to clearly state your opinion on the only relevant questions in this discussion ...

1) Likelihood of Confusion, in this instance (only), is a sustainable assertion?
[_] Yes [_] No, dumba$$

2) SoCon would pursue protection?
[_] Yes [_] No, you forkin’ idiot

[FUBeAR]

Update... no Tweets from this imaginary proposed conference since 7/18 ... 5 days after The Southern Conference Office was advised of this possible infringement upon their registered protected marks.

Coincidence?

maybe...dunno.

[frozennorth]

NDSU would make a better football only affilliate for the AAC than JMU.

Both are ppe dreams, WSU adding football, or adding Army, or App State are all far more likely.

what really needs to happen is for the top teams from the MVFC and CAA to move up and then completely redraw the sub-AAC conference map, which also isn't going to happen.