NCAA lays down penalties for Florida A&M

[Nor Eastern]

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/florida-am-lacked-control-over-administration-its-athletics-program


NCAA hits Florida A&M for lack of institution control after it improperly certified 93 student-athletes over 6yrs in 12 sports and failed to enforce prev NCAA penalties; Rattlers self-impose 2019-20 post-season bans for football and other sports. FAMU receives 5 add'l yrs of probation, monetary penalty, reduction in scholarships, recruiting restrictions, will vacate any wins affected in that 6yr period

[Professor]

I keep saying compliance issues will continue to harm HBCUs. I wonder if their coach stays

[PAllen]

I keep saying compliance issues will continue to harm HBCUs. I wonder if their coach stays

I am constantly amazed that schools like Howard have absolutely no institutional control over this kind of thing.

[WestCoastAggie]

I am constantly amazed that schools like Howard have absolutely no institutional control over this kind of thing.

Howard doesn't have to hire multiple presidents in a 10-year period.

Looks like A&T's path to the Celebration Bowl got that much easier as FAMU was going to be a HUGE factor in the conference title race.

[dgtw]

I keep saying compliance issues will continue to harm HBCUs. I wonder if their coach stays

What is the problem with HBCUs in regard to compliance? Is it due to a poorly funded compliance office or is it something else?


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[clenz]

xpopcornx

[PAllen]

Howard doesn't have to hire multiple presidents in a 10-year period.

Looks like A&T's path to the Celebration Bowl got that much easier as FAMU was going to be a HUGE factor in the conference title race.

True, it did take them three tries to find someone who wasn't openly embezzling the endowment.

[PAllen]

What is the problem with HBCUs in regard to compliance? Is it due to a poorly funded compliance office or is it something else?


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I can only speak to Howard. There it is largely left up to the athletes themselves to keep themselves eligible. No one is checking on these kids and I'm honestly surprised there hasn't been a larger hit on this front.

[DFW HOYA]

What is the problem with HBCUs in regard to compliance? Is it due to a poorly funded compliance office or is it something else?


Yes and yes.

And it's been going on for years. Check out this 1936 protest when Howard University stopped feeding its football players before a game.

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/news/city-desk/blog/13062744/athletes-dont-go-to-howard-university-for-the-food

[Bisonoline]

I keep saying compliance issues will continue to harm HBCUs. I wonder if their coach stays

Why? Are they not able to follow the rules?

[WestCoastAggie]

Why? Are they not able to follow the rules?

Some of us cut budgetary corners regarding compliance in addition giving players chances that other schools wouldn't because of poor grades.

Thanks to APR, most of us had to make some tough decisions in properly funding the compliance area of Athletics and put in better lines of communication with the rest of the university. Most of these issues aren't done on purpose. It's just that when you have one compliance officer, who's underpaid, looking after hundreds of student-athletes and coaches, things get wonky.

We can't say it's all HBCUS either because NCAT's athletic department raised football's APR to 967 and an average of 980 for the entire department. Now going to 3 out of 4 Celebration Bowls, getting $1 million in donations from Alumni on an annual basis and sound financial decisions definitely help to fund compliance.

[Professor]

What is the problem with HBCUs in regard to compliance? Is it due to a poorly funded compliance office or is it something else?


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Hit the nail on the head. Turnover and instability is killing them.

Since 2010 FAMU has had 8 compliance officers , 7 Athletic Directors and 3 Permanent Presidents and a couple of interim ones. Not to mention 4/5 Football Coaches ( Head or Interim) , 4 Men's Basketball coaches , 2 women's basketball coaches, 2 golf, 2 volleyball and 3 baseball coaches.

A lot of other HBCU's with APR issues have high turnover as well

[whoanellie]

All I know is that true leaders like a Bill Hayes & Rod Broadway ran successful programs especially NC A&T.
Funding will always be an issue and that is the rich FCS programs still get richer. There is going to be another breakaway soon IMHO.
Like 72 top schools in top conferences will pull away and all those mid-majors will flood back into the FCS.

[DFW HOYA]

Like 72 top schools in top conferences will pull away and all those mid-majors will flood back into the FCS.

Other than Idaho, no one else is moving down. Does anyone really see East Carolina or UCF looking to join the SoCon in our lifetimes?

[PAllen]

Other than Idaho, no one else is moving down. Does anyone really see East Carolina or UCF looking to join the SoCon in our lifetimes?

The MAC and Sunbelt maybe. If it did happen, even some of them would stick around in FBS.

[WileECoyote06]

Hit the nail on the head. Turnover and instability is killing them.

Since 2010 FAMU has had 8 compliance officers , 7 Athletic Directors and 3 Permanent Presidents and a couple of interim ones. Not to mention 4/5 Football Coaches ( Head or Interim) , 4 Men's Basketball coaches , 2 women's basketball coaches, 2 golf, 2 volleyball and 3 baseball coaches.

A lot of other HBCU's with APR issues have high turnover as well

In the case of FAMU yes that's a major factor. With us, it was a clerical error that occurred over multiple years because the staff wasn't properly trained.

[Professor]

All I know is that true leaders like a Bill Hayes & Rod Broadway ran successful programs especially NC A&T.
Funding will always be an issue and that is the rich FCS programs still get richer. There is going to be another breakaway soon IMHO.
Like 72 top schools in top conferences will pull away and all those mid-majors will flood back into the FCS.

Bill Hayes Never Had to deal with APR at A&T.

Broadway was successful because he recruited players with GPAs over 3.0 and played cupcakes for 3 years OOC to build the program to what it is now

[PAllen]

Bill Hayes Never Had to deal with APR at A&T.

Broadway was successful because he recruited players with GPAs over 3.0 and played cupcakes for 3 years OOC to build the program to what it is now

Wow, recruiting students who actually stand a good chance of graduating. What a concept.

[kdinva]

Yes and yes.

And it's been going on for years. Check out this 1936 protest when Howard University stopped feeding its football players before a game.

https://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/news/city-desk/blog/13062744/athletes-dont-go-to-howard-university-for-the-food

I like this one;


Wilbon's stories helped lead to a large-scale boycott of the Howard athletic banquet by its athletes in 1981.

did that banquet consist of Chips and Dips?

[Bisonoline]

Some of us cut budgetary corners regarding compliance in addition giving players chances that other schools wouldn't because of poor grades.

Thanks to APR, most of us had to make some tough decisions in properly funding the compliance area of Athletics and put in better lines of communication with the rest of the university. Most of these issues aren't done on purpose. It's just that when you have one compliance officer, who's underpaid, looking after hundreds of student-athletes and coaches, things get wonky.

We can't say it's all HBCUS either because NCAT's athletic department raised football's APR to 967 and an average of 980 for the entire department. Now going to 3 out of 4 Celebration Bowls, getting $1 million in donations from Alumni on an annual basis and sound financial decisions definitely help to fund compliance.


I dont get it. When I played I knew the rules. I knew what it took to stay eligible. Its not that difficult. But for this day and age the have the APR. You would think if you are going to sponsor sports it would be a priority to make sure your athletes would be eligible. Considering not all athletes need to be baby sit I dont see why this is an issue.

[FUBeAR]

I dont get it. When I played I knew the rules. I knew what it took to stay eligible. Its not that difficult. But for this day and age the have the APR. You would think if you are going to sponsor sports it would be a priority to make sure your athletes would be eligible. Considering not all athletes need to be baby sit I dont see why this is an issue.The APR 'thing' is not easy to reckon. My former Mercer Bear had all kinds of AP Credits from HS, all but 1 of his courses transferred from Air Force to Mercer, he went to Summer School, took full loads, and passed his classes....BUT....he had to change his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science in order to stay eligible in his 3rd year (of 5) because the Eng. major req'd more total hours than the other and those HS and AF Courses counted toward the CS major, but not the Eng major. He was 'off' a semester between AF and Mercer, but the NCAA Clock keeps ticking...so that's what made all of this an issue....but it is HARD for so many of them that don't have 'straight-line' routes thru school.

No way would he (or his Liberal Arts old-man) have been able to know what he needed to do be eligible if we didn't have the Academic & Compliance peeps at Mercer calculating it and watching it and advising him. Sux that he had to choose between playing and pursuing the degree he wanted....but that's the gift of the NCAA. They do 2 things great - make money for themselves and their REAL constituents AND find ways to screw kids.

[Bisonoline]

The APR 'thing' is not easy to reckon. My former Mercer Bear had all kinds of AP Credits from HS, all but 1 of his courses transferred from Air Force to Mercer, he went to Summer School, took full loads, and passed his classes....BUT....he had to change his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science in order to stay eligible in his 3rd year (of 5) because the Eng. major req'd more total hours than the other and those HS and AF Courses counted toward the CS major, but not the Eng major. He was 'off' a semester between AF and Mercer, but the NCAA Clock keeps ticking...so that's what made all of this an issue....but it is HARD for so many of them that don't have 'straight-line' routes thru school.



No way would he (or his Liberal Arts old-man) have been able to know what he needed to do be eligible if we didn't have the Academic & Compliance peeps at Mercer calculating it and watching it and advising him. Sux that he had to choose between playing and pursuing the degree he wanted....but that's the gift of the NCAA. They do 2 things great - make money for themselves and their REAL constituents AND find ways to screw kids.

I hate the NCAA.

[WestCoastAggie]

The APR 'thing' is not easy to reckon. My former Mercer Bear had all kinds of AP Credits from HS, all but 1 of his courses transferred from Air Force to Mercer, he went to Summer School, took full loads, and passed his classes....BUT....he had to change his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science in order to stay eligible in his 3rd year (of 5) because the Eng. major req'd more total hours than the other and those HS and AF Courses counted toward the CS major, but not the Eng major. He was 'off' a semester between AF and Mercer, but the NCAA Clock keeps ticking...so that's what made all of this an issue....but it is HARD for so many of them that don't have 'straight-line' routes thru school.

No way would he (or his Liberal Arts old-man) have been able to know what he needed to do be eligible if we didn't have the Academic & Compliance peeps at Mercer calculating it and watching it and advising him. Sux that he had to choose between playing and pursuing the degree he wanted....but that's the gift of the NCAA. They do 2 things great - make money for themselves and their REAL constituents AND find ways to screw kids.

Right on the money. However, FAMU's turnover in key positions was irresponsible and that starts at the top with the president.

[Pinnum]

Some of us cut budgetary corners regarding compliance in addition giving players chances that other schools wouldn't because of poor grades.

Thanks to APR, most of us had to make some tough decisions in properly funding the compliance area of Athletics and put in better lines of communication with the rest of the university. Most of these issues aren't done on purpose. It's just that when you have one compliance officer, who's underpaid, looking after hundreds of student-athletes and coaches, things get wonky.

We can't say it's all HBCUS either because NCAT's athletic department raised football's APR to 967 and an average of 980 for the entire department. Now going to 3 out of 4 Celebration Bowls, getting $1 million in donations from Alumni on an annual basis and sound financial decisions definitely help to fund compliance.

HBCUs don't have the APR enforced like other schools do.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/low-academic-rates-cause-lost-postseason-penalties

"The committee has supported HBCUs and limited-resource schools by allowing teams that meet specific criteria to avoid penalties in some circumstances. For example, HBCU and limited-resource teams historically avoided penalties by showing both improvement and a graduation rate that exceeds that of the student body at the school. That separate standard remains available, but a team cannot use it every year. The committee limited its use to spur schools to continue to work toward academic achievement."

[Pinnum]

The APR 'thing' is not easy to reckon. My former Mercer Bear had all kinds of AP Credits from HS, all but 1 of his courses transferred from Air Force to Mercer, he went to Summer School, took full loads, and passed his classes....BUT....he had to change his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science in order to stay eligible in his 3rd year (of 5) because the Eng. major req'd more total hours than the other and those HS and AF Courses counted toward the CS major, but not the Eng major. He was 'off' a semester between AF and Mercer, but the NCAA Clock keeps ticking...so that's what made all of this an issue....but it is HARD for so many of them that don't have 'straight-line' routes thru school.


That's not how the APR works. You don't have to graduate with a different major to stay eligible. You don't even have to be enrolled in classes for your declared major. You simply have to be making progress towards graduation. He was not required to change majors and start taking classes for another tract. The only time kids change majors is if they won't be able to get the required classes (often labs) that are needed for the following benchmark to meet the progress towards graduation.

You commend Mercer and their Compliance but you were given poor guidance. They gave you the lazy quick fix that required no effort from them. If I was advising, I would have has the CS declared, continued taking the CompEng classes, had the student take the required class they lacked, then complete a declaration change to CompEng after the required course was taken.

Of course this requires some effort on their part. If they didn't want to track and monitor progress within this managed plan, they could have submitted an Academic Waiver request with the NCAA which, given the student's pedigree described would have without a doubt been granted. But again, that required effort from the Mercer staff. Much easier just to tell the kid to study something else and not have to do any work.

[WestCoastAggie]

HBCUs don't have the APR enforced like other schools do.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/low-academic-rates-cause-lost-postseason-penalties

"The committee has supported HBCUs and limited-resource schools by allowing teams that meet specific criteria to avoid penalties in some circumstances. For example, HBCU and limited-resource teams historically avoided penalties by showing both improvement and a graduation rate that exceeds that of the student body at the school. That separate standard remains available, but a team cannot use it every year. The committee limited its use to spur schools to continue to work toward academic achievement."

Schools essentially have to file a waiver and only have a certain amount of times those waivers can be used. The MEAC and SWAC will have those things go away eventually.

[Professor]

Wow, recruiting students who actually stand a good chance of graduating. What a concept.

Lol you act everyone is interested in kids graduating. See the list of the 25 worst graduation rates

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1731218-college-football-schools-with-the-best-and-worst-graduation-rates#slide53

[Pinnum]

Schools essentially have to file a waiver and only have a certain amount of times those waivers can be used. The MEAC and SWAC will have those things go away eventually.

The exception was put in specifically for the HBCUs.

The APR only applies to scholarship athletes. The schools could restructure the way they offer scholarships and never have a problem with the APR.

They choose to be in this position. The only real money problem is that anyone who is successful in these conferences gets poached for more money and thus the turn over is a real issue. But there are a lot of other low budget D1 schools that have similar compliance departments that don't have all the problems. The biggest issue is that the HBCUs put kids on scholarship that they know will struggle to succeed academically.

This, of course, is argued to be part of the purpose of the schools--taking a chance on high risk kids.

The crux of the issue is that they are trying to do everything and can't. They are trying to succeed on the field and court while keeping their scholarship count up to get FBS pay dates while also trying to give admission to high risk kids.

[FUBeAR]

That's not how the APR works. You don't have to graduate with a different major to stay eligible. You don't even have to be enrolled in classes for your declared major. You simply have to be making progress towards graduation. He was not required to change majors and start taking classes for another tract. The only time kids change majors is if they won't be able to get the required classes (often labs) that are needed for the following benchmark to meet the progress towards graduation.

You commend Mercer and their Compliance but you were given poor guidance. They gave you the lazy quick fix that required no effort from them. If I was advising, I would have has the CS declared, continued taking the CompEng classes, had the student take the required class they lacked, then complete a declaration change to CompEng after the required course was taken.

Of course this requires some effort on their part. If they didn't want to track and monitor progress within this managed plan, they could have submitted an Academic Waiver request with the NCAA which, given the student's pedigree described would have without a doubt been granted. But again, that required effort from the Mercer staff. Much easier just to tell the kid to study something else and not have to do any work.Your commentary is quite insightful and refreshes my memory on the topic a bit. There is more to the story on ‘both sides’ that I didn’t share because of not wanting to go too deep into the weeds. But to clarify, I will add that the peeps at Mercer deemed this suggestion which you (and I) made (at the time), “have the CS declared, continued taking the CompEng classes, had the student take the required class(es) they lacked, then complete a declaration change to CompEng after the required course(s) was (were) taken,” as lacking in academic integrity & would not agree to do it. They also said that the CompEng Dept (part of the Engineering School) would not let him continue taking CompEng classes if we was a ‘declared’ CompSci (part of the College of Liberal Arts) major. They also said they would not submit a request for an academic waiver in this case. Perhaps that wasn’t an NCAA ‘chip’ they wanted to ‘spend’ at that time on that student-Athlete. I don’t know.

So...I think from this little back-and-forth alone, my original point is further made...reckoning Progress toward Degree eligibility for hundreds of Student Athletes is not an easy & linear, cookie-cutter kind of thing. Student Athletes & their families cannot do it themselves. They must rely on their Academic & Compliance peeps to do this. I’m not sure my original commentary about Mercer’s peeps in this area was commending them (we actually went ‘hard’ for several ‘rounds’ about this issue), but they were on top of it and they did keep him eligible.

BTW....


Progress-Toward-Degree Requirements


Academic Requirements
Prior to the Second Year of Enrollment
Prior to the Third Year of Enrollment
Prior to the Fourth Year of Enrollment
Prior to the Fifth Year of Enrollment


Regular Academic Term
6 semester/6 quarter hours of credit
6 semester/6 quarter hours of credit
6 semester/6 quarter hours of credit
6 semester/6 quarter hours of credit


Regular Academic Year
18 semester/27 quarter hours of credit
18 semester/27 quarter hours of credit
18 semester/27 quarter hours of credit
18 semester/27 quarter hours of credit


Degree Credit
Credits accepted toward any degree offered at the institution
Credits used must go toward the designated degree
Credits used must go toward the designated degree
Credits used must go toward the designated degree


Annual/Percentage-of-Degree
24 semester/36 quarter hours of credit
40-percent of the designated degree must be completed
60-percent of the designated degree must be completed
80-percent of the designated degree must be completed


Grade-Point Average
90-percent of the minimum GPA required for graduation (1.8 if a 2.0 is the minimum)
95-percent of the minimum GPA required for graduation (1.9 if a 2.0 is the minimum)
100-percent of the minimum GPA required for graduation (2.0 if 2.0 is the minimum)
100-percent of the minimum GPA required for graduation (2.0 i

[Pinnum]

So...I think from this little back-and-forth alone, my original point is further made...

No. It wasn't a problem with the NCAA.

The fact that the majors were in different schools was a reasonable objection but students cross enroll in different colleges all the time and deviate from their major track with the approval of their advisor. We are talking non-athletes. But it is possible Mercer has stricter controls in place for all students and their majors or it is possible that they feared it would be thought of as a special benefit for an athlete. Those are reasonable concerns.

But that is the whole reason for the academic waiver process.

What you described isn't a big deal. I can tell you that it would have been resolved for even a walk-on to the rowing team for any Power Conference school without anyone batting an eye. It's a routine process.

I know the rules. I know them well.

Mercer didn't want to work for you. Which is kind of the whole theme of this thread... Athletic departments not putting in a lot of work on compliance or student assistance.

[FUBeAR]

No. It wasn't a problem with the NCAA.

The fact that the majors were in different schools was a reasonable objection but students cross enroll in different colleges all the time and deviate from their major track with the approval of their advisor. We are talking non-athletes. But it is possible Mercer has stricter controls in place for all students and their majors or it is possible that they feared it would be thought of as a special benefit for an athlete. Those are reasonable concerns.

But that is the whole reason for the academic waiver process.

What you described isn't a big deal. I can tell you that it would have been resolved for even a walk-on to the rowing team for any Power Conference school without anyone batting an eye. It's a routine process.

I know the rules. I know them well.

Mercer didn't want to work for you. Which is kind of the whole theme of this thread... Athletic departments not putting in a lot of work on compliance or student assistance.There is more to the story. I’ll just say that Mercer went from no Football Athletes in 2011-2012 to 100+ non-Athletic-Scholarship Football Athletes in 2012-2013 to, roughly 50 Scholarship & 50 non-Athletic Scholarship Football Athletes in 2014-2015. There was a learning curve for all involved and multiple flies in multiple ointment pots which caused this to be problematic and much more complex than your oversimplified assessment. You aren’t wrong. That was, IMO, some part of the issue, but it wasn’t all of it and I really don’t think it was even most of it. I have too many other data points, from 2012-present (former Bear is in latter stages of Grad School @ Mercer & is a Software Engineer for Mercer Engineering & Research Center (MERC)) which indicate otherwise.

But....again...my original point is (and remains)...THIS STUFF IS NOT SIMPLE. Just look at the variables we have already covered in our exchange. These may be everyday terms and processes for you, but they are not for the average student, nor their families.

...and it IS an NCAA problem. If a kid needs to take 1 term off for various legitimate reasons, their “NCAA Academic Clock” should be stopped. Put that simple, common sense rule in place and we aren’t having this discussion.

[PAllen]

Lol you act everyone is interested in kids graduating. See the list of the 25 worst graduation rates

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1731218-college-football-schools-with-the-best-and-worst-graduation-rates#slide53


I'm actually surprised at how high U of Miami was on that list. Honestly though, if you're not recruiting kids who can hack the academics, then you aren't doing them any favors and are just running a minor league program with no intention of benefiting the players.