AGS Voters have ranked 4-4 UNI, will they rank 4-4 Furman next week?

[FUGameBreaker]

First off yes I know Furman must beat 6-2 UTC for this to even matter (in a game I know can go either way), so let's just assume Furman gets the victory xthumbsupx

AGS Voters (not me) have ranked UNI this week at 4-4 with 287 points total

With that being the case, if Furman is sitting at 4-4 next week it seems they should also be ranked then

The Tale of the Tape:

UNI has wins (4-3) Hampton, (4-4) Indiana St, (3-5) South Dakota, #7 (5-2) South Dakota St
UNI has loses to (4-4) Montana, FBS Iowa, #1 (8-0) NDSU, (4-4) Western Illinois

Furman would have wins (3-5) Western Carolina, (6-2) UTC, (2-5) Citadel, #9 (6-2) Wofford
Furman has loses to #8 (5-2) Elon, FBS Clemson, #25 (7-2) ETSU, (4-4) Samford


Seems very even, so if you guys want to vote for (4-4) UNI in the top 25 giving them 287 total points, it honestly seems a (4-4) Furman team will be just as deserving next week.

[Reign of Terrier]

I think it should be considered IF Samford wins this week as well.

[FUGameBreaker]

I think it should be considered IF Samford wins this week as well.


Thanks I would agree with that and give you some rep if it would allow me to give you some more xthumbsupx

[Mayville Bison]

Furman is currently in the same group for me as Samford, Montana, Missouri State, and a few others. If I put a number by them, they would be about 35-40ish after this past week. If they beat Chatty, they will probably be in my top 30 grouping, but it all depends on what else happens. All 3 of your FCS losses could very easily lose this week which would look really bad.

I had UNI high compared to the rest of AGS mainly for their results against SDSU and NDSU despite their results against Montana and WIU. Any 2 of those 5 teams lose this week, and UNI probably drops out for me.

[FUGameBreaker]

Furman is currently in the same group for me as Samford, Montana, Missouri State, and a few others. If I put a number by them, they would be about 35-40ish after this past week. If they beat Chatty, they will probably be in my top 30 grouping, but it all depends on what else happens. All 3 of your FCS losses could very easily lose this week which would look really bad.

I had UNI high compared to the rest of AGS mainly for their results against SDSU and NDSU despite their results against Montana and WIU. Any 2 of those 5 teams lose this week, and UNI probably drops out for me.


Top 30 would make sense, but I don't see how you can distinguish much difference in those (4-4) resumes to warrant one team being ranked with that record and the other team to not be ranked at that record, the (4-4) resumes are virtually equal

[Reign of Terrier]

There's a natural anchoring bias in the polls because of the MVFC having a lot of playoff regulars. But this year, when the dust settles, it probably won't be a thing by the end of the season and probably won't going into preseason 2019.

[Cocky]

UNI is inconsistent along with a few others which make them hard to rank. They could beat most any team or lose to most any team on an AGS.
There are a few other teams fall that into this category

[FUGameBreaker]

There's a natural anchoring bias in the polls because of the MVFC having a lot of playoff regulars. But this year, when the dust settles, it probably won't be a thing by the end of the season and probably won't going into preseason 2019.

Oh yes indeed, big time!

[grizband]

I don't currently believe either team should be ranked.

[POD Knows]

Oh yes indeed, big time!Gee, maybe it is because the MVFC in the past few years has the best OOC record and is consistently rated as the top conference. And it has already been shown on here that the MVFC voters show less conference bias in the polls, I remember seeing that discussed on this site. That being said, if Furman beats Chatty, they will be close to my top 25.

[FUGameBreaker]

Gee, maybe it is because the MVFC in the past few years has the best OOC record and is consistently rated as the top conference. And it has already been shown on here that the MVFC voters show less conference bias in the polls, I remember seeing that discussed on this site. That being said, if Furman beats Chatty, they will be close to my top 25.


If you currently have 4-4 UNI in your poll, then a 4-4 Furman team should be in your poll next week

[semobison]

Gee, maybe it is because the MVFC in the past few years has the best OOC record and is consistently rated as the top conference. And it has already been shown on here that the MVFC voters show less conference bias in the polls, I remember seeing that discussed on this site. That being said, if Furman beats Chatty, they will be close to my top 25.

Or could it just be that when the Valley teams do get into the playoffs, they actually win games. UNI beats Furman comfortably.

[Milktruck74]

MOOT POINT.....3-5 Furman!!!!!! Go Mocs!!!! The SoCon really shakes out this week.

[POD Knows]

Or could it just be that when the Valley teams do get into the playoffs, they actually win games. UNI beats Furman comfortably.
I would never bet on UNI to do anything. I need to go back and see what my record is picking these guys, it seems like I never get their games right. You never know who is going to show up for them. They are sort of like SDSU, they play us tough and then sleep walk through a game or two.

[semobison]

If you currently have 4-4 UNI in your poll, then a 4-4 Furman team should be in your poll next week

Yep, and Princeton should be #2 and Dartmouth #3. (Purple)

[FUGameBreaker]

Or could it just be that when the Valley teams do get into the playoffs, they actually win games. UNI beats Furman comfortably.


That's the same asinine thinking that has UNI ranked this week at 4-4 and wont give Furman many votes next week at 4-4 should they beat UTC, its a bias of massive proportions, their resumes would be virtually the same

- - - Updated - - -


MOOT POINT.....3-5 Furman!!!!!! Go Mocs!!!! The SoCon really shakes out this week.


I agree it will shake out alot this week, should be fun xthumbsupx

[semobison]

I would never bet on UNI to do anything. I need to go back and see what my record is picking these guys, it seems like I never get their games right. You never know who is going to show up for them. They are sort of like SDSU, they play us tough and then sleep walk through a game or two.

I think after NDSU there is quite a drop off in the Valley this year but the next 7 teams are fairly even from the Jacks to ISUb and Misery State. All capable of beating teams outside the top 10-15.

[Milktruck74]

That's the same asinine thinking that has UNI ranked this week at 4-4 and wont give Furman many votes next week at 4-4 should they beat UTC, its a bias of massive proportions, their resumes would be virtually the same

- - - Updated - - -


I agree it will shake out alot this week, should be fun xthumbsupx



My Mocs are still a year or two away....but I like how this season has panned out.....being in week 9 and still talking playoffs is sooooooooooooooo far ahead of where I thought we would be!!!! way back when we were 3-0, I said that FU was the team that scared me the most.....still are!!!! BTW, I had to go to GVL last week and took the wife and daughter through the campus.....Daughter (HS JR) loved it......I don't like her anymore!!!!!

[semobison]

That's the same asinine thinking that has UNI ranked this week at 4-4 and wont give Furman many votes next week at 4-4 should they beat UTC, its a bias of massive proportions, their resumes would be virtually the same

- - - Updated - - -




I agree it will shake out alot this week, should be fun xthumbsupx

Not all 4-4 teams are equal and some 6-2 teams are better than 8-0 teams. Thinking otherwise is asinine! Do your homework. The only bad loss UNI has this year is week one at Montana. They led NDSU after 3 quarters and beat SDSU!
And, FYI, if Furman wins this week they will possibly be in my poll and if UNI loses, they won't.

[katss07]

Furman would have been absolutely killed by Colgate. They wouldn’t have scored a point. Little doubt in my mind.

[Reign of Terrier]

I don't believe the bias is massive, just that it exists. Remember when Youngstown was ranked or almost ranked at like 1-4 or whatever (something similar, don't smash me for specifics)?

But as I said, it's going to be gone by the end of this year because the MVFC OOC isn't as great this year and there's a lot of cannibalizing this year.

Also, more than half of the socon has made the playoffs in the last 4 seasons. That's impressive because 2 of the remaining 4 are start ups. 4 socon teams have won a playoff game. If ETSU makes it and wins a game, that would be 6 qualifiers and 5 wins. Socon is deep and the only team that is consistently bad is VMI. The only consistently inconsistent team is Western Carolina. Mercer and the Citadel may be condemned to the middle tier for now, but everyone else has improved or been at playoff level good in the last few years (including Western)

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[Reign of Terrier]

Also Misery State is my favorite meme

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[FUGameBreaker]

Not all 4-4 teams are equal and some 6-2 teams are better than 8-0 teams. Thinking otherwise is asinine! Do your homework. The only bad loss UNI has this year is week one at Montana. They led NDSU after 3 quarters and beat SDSU!
And, FYI, if Furman wins this week they will possibly be in my poll and if UNI loses, they won't.



I did my homework, its all in my first post, they would be virtually even resumes

[FUGameBreaker]

Furman would have been absolutely killed by Colgate. They wouldn’t have scored a point. Little doubt in my mind.


Depends which QB plays for Furman, little doubt in my mind we win with Harris Roberts, we clobbered those guys on the road last year, no reason for you to assume such a drastic difference
Now if Furman had the true freshmen QB we had from weeks 1 and 2 and the Samford game you might be right xthumbsupx

[FUBeAR]

BTW, I had to go to GVL last week and took the wife and daughter through the campus.....Daughter (HS JR) loved it......I don't like her anymore!!!!!
If you look at the current cost of tuition at Furman, you will be smart to disown her!

EDIT: Unless she’s a potential 3-5 Star QB. Then you’re good & she will look GREAT in purple!!

[thebootfitter]

I don't believe the bias is massive, just that it exists. Remember when Youngstown was ranked or almost ranked at like 1-4 or whatever (something similar, don't smash me for specifics)?

But as I said, it's going to be gone by the end of this year because the MVFC OOC isn't as great this year and there's a lot of cannibalizing this year.

Also, more than half of the socon has made the playoffs in the last 4 seasons. That's impressive because 2 of the remaining 4 are start ups. 4 socon teams have won a playoff game. If ETSU makes it and wins a game, that would be 6 qualifiers and 5 wins. Socon is deep and the only team that is consistently bad is VMI. The only consistently inconsistent team is Western Carolina. Mercer and the Citadel may be condemned to the middle tier for now, but everyone else has improved or been at playoff level good in the last few years (including Western)
Depends... If the MVFC teams demolish whoever they play in the playoffs, then it could regain some momentum for next year.

Though I tend to agree that outside of NDSU, the rest of the Valley seems to be a little more in line with the rest of the FCS this year. Most are still among the better FCS teams, but not setting themselves apart this year.

[katss07]

Not ****ing on Furman, I’ve watched them play twice this year. They looked good against Wofford. Its too bad the Colgate game wasn’t played, might have been a fun one. Maybe if the Paladins get in (not a good chance at all) then they’ll get into a pod with the Raiders. I’ll take Colgate by 2 scores in Hamilton. This is the best Patriot team we’ve seen since 2015 (Colgate made the quarterfinals) and probably longer. I’d say the best since the 2011 Lehigh team! Its been a minute.

I think people rank UNI because of the SDSU win and the “good loss” to NDSU. The Panthers are a very good football team. They’d beat most FCS teams in the UNIdome.

[Milktruck74]

If you look at the current cost of tuition at Furman, you will be smart to disown her!

EDIT: Unless she’s a potential 3-5 Star QB. Then you’re good & she will look GREAT in purple!!


FACT!!!! Not a bad Mountain Bike Racer....Furman doesn't have MTB!!!! I may Emancipate her!!!!!!

[Thumper 76]

This worked out so well the last time someone did this xcoffeex


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[FUGameBreaker]

This worked out so well the last time someone did this xcoffeex


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You're not addressing anything

[FUGameBreaker]

Not ****ing on Furman, I’ve watched them play twice this year. They looked good against Wofford. Its too bad the Colgate game wasn’t played, might have been a fun one. Maybe if the Paladins get in (not a good chance at all) then they’ll get into a pod with the Raiders. I’ll take Colgate by 2 scores in Hamilton. This is the best Patriot team we’ve seen since 2015 (Colgate made the quarterfinals) and probably longer. I’d say the best since the 2011 Lehigh team! Its been a minute.

I think people rank UNI because of the SDSU win and the “good loss” to NDSU. The Panthers are a very good football team. They’d beat most FCS teams in the UNIdome.



The same people that rank Wofford and SDSU right near each other xthumbsupx And let's not be coy, a 25 point loss at home is a 25 point loss at home, sure you could say they were in it but hell Furman lead ETSU 27-6 and Samford 19-10 before choking under various circumstances as well, but I am not after those brownie points here though, just want to show UNI and FU are pretty similar at 4-4 (IF the Dins beat UTC that is)

[KPSUL]

There are enough deserving FCS team with winning records to leave both Furman and UNI off the top 25.

[FUGameBreaker]

There are enough deserving FCS team with winning records to leave both Furman and UNI off the top 25.


Yet 4-4 UNI has 287 points in this weeks poll

[ngineer]

I don't currently believe either team should be ranked.

Agreed. Futher, why all the time spent worrying about being ranked in the bottom 20-25? Never sure why the rankings were expanded years ago from "top 20" to "top 25" other than if makes five more teams feel good about themselves and gives their SID's something to write about.

[caribbeanhen]

Gee, maybe it is because the MVFC in the past few years has the best OOC record and is consistently rated as the top conference. And it has already been shown on here that the MVFC voters show less conference bias in the polls, I remember seeing that discussed on this site. That being said, if Furman beats Chatty, they will be close to my top 25.

prove it, or maybe I'm confused by the pick em games where if you want to find the MVFC guys read the standings like an email, haha

[GoBlueHens83]

I ranked UNI 25th and not Furman because Furman still owes us a trip to Newark.

[POD Knows]

prove it, or maybe I'm confused by the pick em games where if you want to find the MVFC guys read the standings like an email, haha
You lost me dude.

[gofurman]

Using Math and logic.. if - IF IF IF IF - Furman were to beat Chatt then yes, they would deserve votes- here is why from a logical standpoint

Furman LOSS to Clemson - FBS playoff contender who is destroying the ACC .. just beat NC State like a whipping boy. I wouldn't count that against ANY FCS team !

---------------- SO IN FCS
So... LOSS to top 10 Elon
then BEAT top 10 Wofford

* the average of those is 2 games that make Furman number 10 and number 10 again

Beat Citadel, Beat Western, so those bolster the resume...

lost to Samford (30th?) and USING THE ASSUMPTION of this thread Beat number 30 Chattanooga - so that makes Furman 30 and 30

lost by 2 to ETSU (21st?)

So Furman would be the average of 10, 10, 30, 30 - which is a rank of 20 ! Then add in a win over CItadel, Western and a 2 point loss on the road to number 21 ETSU.. FURMAN Probably should be 20-25 ranked if they beat Chattanooga

That would be the TINKING MANS ranking. now we all know how the coaches and STATS do.. LOL

Seriously, I would apply that math to ANY TEAM. not just my guys. If a team plays two TOP TEN teams and wins one and loses to the other well they have shown me they are 10-15 themselves. Then that same team loses to number 30 and beats another 30.. they are top 30 themselves. All that leaves the team in question at number 20. Then they beat Citadel and Western and lose on the road by two points to number 21.. yep, I say 20-25th.

It's just math - PLUS they have been without their starting QB vs Elon (not that I think it mattered enough in that one) and v Samford (I REALLY think it mattered there)

[semobison]

prove it, or maybe I'm confused by the pick em games where if you want to find the MVFC guys read the standings like an email, haha

If we were really bias we would have ISUb and Misery State ranked too. They are both 4-4 but you don't see their fans complaining...both of them!

[gofurman]

Agreed. Futher, why all the time spent worrying about being ranked in the bottom 20-25? Never sure why the rankings were expanded years ago from "top 20" to "top 25" other than if makes five more teams feel good about themselves and gives their SID's something to write about.

There is definitely a value in being ranked. It helps with the next year for at large bids etc. number 22 has a chance at an at large in this era of 24 playoff teams. Heck, I think my Furman guys were, indeed, ranked about 23rd last year and made the playoffs .. And won a playoff game etc. As anyone who watches polls knows it's FAR HARDER for an unrated team to get ranked and Get put in the poll than it is for a highly-ranked team to get dropped from the poll. It's as if the poll voters don't believe any team could get better.. Or worse. They just leave everyone about where they started.

Take two teams - one starts top ten. The other starts without any votes. Both go 5-3 against similar comp. the top ten team will probably be number 20. The other team (began season unranked) will not be anywhere near the top 25. The team that began the season in top ten has a better chance of making playoffs ... And it is a source of pride for any team to list how they made the playoffs in X year. Furman was actually a good example this last year. We ran off SEVEN consecutive wins -including Colgate etc - and still were not ranked by STATS. to their credit, AGS guys here ranked us.

[FUGameBreaker]

Agreed. Futher, why all the time spent worrying about being ranked in the bottom 20-25? Never sure why the rankings were expanded years ago from "top 20" to "top 25" other than if makes five more teams feel good about themselves and gives their SID's something to write about.


The point being two different teams with extremely similar resumes should get the same run in the poll, but I am not expecting it to shake out like that due to several reasons already addressed

[FUGameBreaker]

I ranked UNI 25th and not Furman because Furman still owes us a trip to Newark.


Indeed, sorry we had to play auburn and missouri that year, sucks because I was planning to make the trek up to Hens country for the first time, I am guessing our athletics program was really needing money bad that year so we took the 2 big paydays

[GoBlueHens83]

Indeed, sorry we had to play auburn and missouri that year, sucks because I was planning to make the trek up to Hens country for the first time, I am guessing our athletics program was really needing money bad that year so we took the 2 big paydays

I was looking forward to that game. UD wasn't scheduling any really challenging OOC games around that time, so it was a let down when it was cancelled.

[caribbeanhen]

You lost me dude.

if you get a chain e-mail at work, don't you start reading it from the bottom?

[Mayville Bison]

The point being two different teams with extremely similar resumes should get the same run in the poll, but I am not expecting it to shake out like that due to several reasons already addressed

Let's look how the season has gone for both teams

UNI
Loss at Montana. At the time, this wasn't considered a bad loss. Winning on the road is never easy. Winning at Montana even more so. Trend - flat
Loss at Iowa. Loss to a P5 team - expected and shouldn't be punished. Trend - flat
Win vs Hampton. Win at home against a lesser opponent is expected. Shutout is not. Trend - slightly up
Win at Indiana St. Win against a lesser opponent is expected. On the road is not. Shutout is not. Trend - slightly up
Loss vs NDSU. Loss at home is not expected. Loss against top 2 (still debated at this point) is expected. Leading after 3 quarters is impressive. Getting destroyed in the 4th quarter loses much of that impressiveness. Trend - flat
Win at USD. Both teams comparable at this point. Win on the road is impressive. Trend - slightly up
Win vs SDSU. Win at home is nice. Win against a top 5 (at the time) team is impressive. Trend - up
Loss at WIU. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss to a lesser opponent (at the time) is unexpected. Loss by 27 (excluding garbage TD) Trend - down
Overall: One down, 3 flat, 3 slightly up, 1 up

Furman
Loss at Clemson. Loss to a P5 team - expected and shouldn't be punished. Trend - flat
Loss at Elon. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss by 38 points is unexpected. Trend - down
Loss at ETSU. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss to a traditionally bad team is unexpected. Trend - down
Win vs WCU. Win at home is expected. Win by only 6 points at home could translate into a loss on the road. A win is a win. Trend - slightly up
Win vs Wofford. Win at home is expected. Win over top 10 team is not expected. Trend - up
Loss vs Samford. Loss at home is not expected. Losing by 19 (garbage TD excluded) at home is not expected. Trend - down
Win at The Citadel. Win on the road is not expected. Nice 4th quarter to pull away. Trend - slightly up
Win vs Chattanooga (assumption based on the thread). Win at home is not unexpected. Close game Trend - slightly up. One sided victory Trend - up
Overall: 3 down, 1 flat, 2 slightly up, 2 up

If you honestly look at the games at the time they were played, one team is better than the other. Getting blown out by Elon might look ok (debatable) now, but at the time it was really bad. Losing to ETSU may look ok (debatable) now, but at the time it was really bad. Losing to Montana may look like a bad loss now, but at the time it was not bad.

Performance in losses based on Sagarin rankings
Clemson vs Iowa - Push
Elon vs NDSU - Advantage UNI
Samford vs WIU - Push
ETSU vs Montana - Advantage UNI in my mind but will call a push


Performance in wins based on Sagarin rankings
Wofford vs SDSU - Push
Chattanooga vs USD - Undetermined
The Citadel vs ISU - UNI
WCU vs Hampton - UNI

TLDR - you may think the two resumes are the same, but one is so very much not like the other.

[Reign of Terrier]

Flag on the play: referring to a start up program as traditionally bad

Especially when that program may make the playoffs this year

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[Mayville Bison]

Flag on the play: referring to a start up program as traditionally bad

Especially when that program may make the playoffs this year

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

D1 performance
2017: 3-7
2016: 3-6
2015: 0-9

I'll stick by my traditionally bad, thank you.

[smallcollegefbfan]

If you currently have 4-4 UNI in your poll, then a 4-4 Furman team should be in your poll next week

The MVFC is much stronger and deeper than the SoCon. Just like the SoCon is stronger and deeper than some other leagues. Their league is just too weak. When comparing MVFC and SoCon teams right now I feel like a 4-4 team in the MVFC is probably like a 5-3 or 6-2 team in the SoCon, depending on how many FBS teams they played. I would expect the top 3 teams in the MVFC to win the SoCon this year with only Wofford making it close or having a shot because those teams don't see the option. I feel like UTC and ETSU are 20-30 type teams right now with Samford not being a top 30 team. I feel like UTC, Samford, and ETSU are about equal or close with UNI, WIU, and USD. It is hard to pick between those teams right now. The SoCon does seem to be a little bit better so I'm thinking those would be great games and I'm not sure who would win. I have Furman just outside of that group with those teams. Furman has to win this week or I won't put them in my top 25-35 range. I try to stack a top 40 or so every week and then after week 10 I try to narrow it down to just 35 teams to consider so they need to win the next 2 games or I probably won't have them in my top 35 or so for consideration.

[FUGameBreaker]

Let's look how the season has gone for both teams

UNI
Loss at Montana. At the time, this wasn't considered a bad loss. Winning on the road is never easy. Winning at Montana even more so. Trend - flat
Loss at Iowa. Loss to a P5 team - expected and shouldn't be punished. Trend - flat
Win vs Hampton. Win at home against a lesser opponent is expected. Shutout is not. Trend - slightly up
Win at Indiana St. Win against a lesser opponent is expected. On the road is not. Shutout is not. Trend - slightly up
Loss vs NDSU. Loss at home is not expected. Loss against top 2 (still debated at this point) is expected. Leading after 3 quarters is impressive. Getting destroyed in the 4th quarter loses much of that impressiveness. Trend - flat
Win at USD. Both teams comparable at this point. Win on the road is impressive. Trend - slightly up
Win vs SDSU. Win at home is nice. Win against a top 5 (at the time) team is impressive. Trend - up
Loss at WIU. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss to a lesser opponent (at the time) is unexpected. Loss by 27 (excluding garbage TD) Trend - down
Overall: One down, 3 flat, 3 slightly up, 1 up

Furman
Loss at Clemson. Loss to a P5 team - expected and shouldn't be punished. Trend - flat
Loss at Elon. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss by 38 points is unexpected. Trend - down
Loss at ETSU. Loss on the road is not unexpected. Loss to a traditionally bad team is unexpected. Trend - down
Win vs WCU. Win at home is expected. Win by only 6 points at home could translate into a loss on the road. A win is a win. Trend - slightly up
Win vs Wofford. Win at home is expected. Win over top 10 team is not expected. Trend - up
Loss vs Samford. Loss at home is not expected. Losing by 19 (garbage TD excluded) at home is not expected. Trend - down
Win at The Citadel. Win on the road is not expected. Nice 4th quarter to pull away. Trend - slightly up
Win vs Chattanooga (assumption based on the thread). Win at home is not unexpected. Close game Trend - slightly up. One sided victory Trend - up
Overall: 3 down, 1 flat, 2 slightly up, 2 up

If you honestly look at the games at the time they were played, one team is better than the other. Getting blown out by Elon might look ok (debatable) now, but at the time it was really bad. Losing to ETSU may look ok (debatable) now, but at the time it was really bad. Losing to Montana may look like a bad loss now, but at the time it was not bad.

Performance in losses based on Sagarin rankings
Clemson vs Iowa - Push
Elon vs NDSU - Advantage UNI
Samford vs WIU - Push
ETSU vs Montana - Advantage UNI in my mind but will call a push


Performance in wins based on Sagarin rankings
Wofford vs SDSU - Push
Chattanooga vs USD - Undetermined
The Citadel vs ISU - UNI
WCU vs Hampton - UNI

TLDR - you may think the two resumes are the same, but one is so very much not like the other.



Some good points but there are some incorrect assumptions in this post for sure.
You give a trend flat for a loss UNI at Montana who is getting no votes from the very AGS poll in question but a trend down for Furman losing at ETSU by 2, a team that AGS ranks #25, that's just dumb.
You give a trend flat for a 25 point home loss to #1 NDSU for UNI, but a trend down for a 38 point road loss to #8 Elon (who won at JMU) to Furman when we were stuck with a true freshman QB for that game, that's just bending things for your advantage but not reality.

By your metric used properly it would be:

UNI:
Montana - down
Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
WIU - down
NDSU - down
SD St. - up

Furman:
ETSU - down
Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
UTC - slight up
Samford - down
Elon - down
Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume xthumbsupx

[Mayville Bison]

Some good points but there are some incorrect assumptions in this post for sure.
You give a trend flat for a loss UNI at Montana who is getting no votes from the very AGS poll in question but a trend down for Furman losing at ETSU by 2, a team that AGS ranks #25, that's just dumb.
You give a trend flat for a 25 point home loss to #1 NDSU for UNI, but a trend down for a 38 point road loss to #8 Elon (who won at JMU) to Furman when we were stuck with a true freshman QB for that game, that's just bending things for your advantage but not reality.

By your metric used properly it would be:

UNI:
Montana - down
Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
WIU - down
NDSU - down
SD St. - up

Furman:
ETSU - down
Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
UTC - slight up
Samford - down
Elon - down
Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume xthumbsupx

So you are saying beating the number one team in the nation for 3 quarters and then falling apart is the same as giving up 45 straight points to a team that beat the number two team in the nation?

Also, just so we are clear, you are saying losing at Montana the first game of the year is the same as losing at ETSU?

[FUGameBreaker]

The MVFC is much stronger and deeper than the SoCon. Just like the SoCon is stronger and deeper than some other leagues. Their league is just too weak. When comparing MVFC and SoCon teams right now I feel like a 4-4 team in the MVFC is probably like a 5-3 or 6-2 team in the SoCon, depending on how many FBS teams they played. I would expect the top 3 teams in the MVFC to win the SoCon this year with only Wofford making it close or having a shot because those teams don't see the option. I feel like UTC and ETSU are 20-30 type teams right now with Samford not being a top 30 team. I feel like UTC, Samford, and ETSU are about equal or close with UNI, WIU, and USD. It is hard to pick between those teams right now. The SoCon does seem to be a little bit better so I'm thinking those would be great games and I'm not sure who would win. I have Furman just outside of that group with those teams. Furman has to win this week or I won't put them in my top 25-35 range. I try to stack a top 40 or so every week and then after week 10 I try to narrow it down to just 35 teams to consider so they need to win the next 2 games or I probably won't have them in my top 35 or so for consideration.



Oh for sure, its all predicated on Furman continuing to win out otherwise yes indeed it is a moot point xthumbsupx

[Reign of Terrier]

D1 performance
2017: 3-7
2016: 3-6
2015: 0-9

I'll stick by my traditionally bad, thank you.2015: first year of the program. Only freshmen playing
2016: first year in the socon with no player old enough to consume alcohol
2017: was within a score of tying/beating 3 teams that made the playoffs the day before. Could easily have been 6-4.

So a senior-filled team that makes natural progression and has more depth than any year prior winning 8-9 games isn't crazy.

You can't call a team traditionally bad if they haven't had a tradition since 2003.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

So you are saying beating the number one team in the nation for 3 quarters and then falling apart is the same as giving up 45 straight points to a team that beat the number two team in the nation?

Also, just so we are clear, you are saying losing at Montana the first game of the year is the same as losing at ETSU?


We are talking about the AGS poll, so yes losing @ETSU who is ranked #25 is the same as losing @Montana who is not even getting any votes.

And yes losing at home by 25 points to a top rated team is essentially no different than losing by 38 on the road with a back-up QB to a very highly rated team for sure.

[Reign of Terrier]

ETSU isn't a perfect team, but they're better than their stats indicate. With Herink at QB they are better than the FBS transfer, and he was the guy for much of the first half of the season. ETSU has played the hardest defenses they will play this year and has the defense to match Mercer and Samford. I give them a 60% chance of making the playoffs right now (and I'm being too conservative). If they beat Mercer, they are in.

So, I understand the criticism of Furman, but losing to ETSU isn't legitimate. At a certain point you have to ask yourself, when will anyone take ETSU seriously? The end of the season if they finish 6-2 or 7-1 in socon play? 6-2 seems like a sufficient standard and if they miss that mark I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. 7-1 is kind of dumb, because that's a socon championship level expectations that few ever meet when they bust on the scene. Right now, they have more wins and probably division one than Mercer has had since they restarted their program. With one more win, they could match the number of 8 win seasons Furman and Samford have put together since 2015.

You may not like it, it may not be pretty, it may not be national championship worthy, it may not be top-tier in the MVFC worthy (sidenote: I think Wofford competes with every MVFC team this year sans NDSU), but ETSU is a playoff team if they win one more game.

[FUGameBreaker]

ETSU isn't a perfect team, but they're better than their stats indicate. With Herink at QB they are better than the FBS transfer, and he was the guy for much of the first half of the season. ETSU has played the hardest defenses they will play this year and has the defense to match Mercer and Samford. I give them a 60% chance of making the playoffs right now (and I'm being too conservative). If they beat Mercer, they are in.

So, I understand the criticism of Furman, but losing to ETSU isn't legitimate. At a certain point you have to ask yourself, when will anyone take ETSU seriously? The end of the season if they finish 6-2 or 7-1 in socon play? 6-2 seems like a sufficient standard and if they miss that mark I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. 7-1 is kind of dumb, because that's a socon championship level expectations that few ever meet when they bust on the scene. Right now, they have more wins and probably division one than Mercer has had since they restarted their program. With one more win, they could match the number of 8 win seasons Furman and Samford have put together since 2015.

You may not like it, it may not be pretty, it may not be national championship worthy, it may not be top-tier in the MVFC worthy (sidenote: I think Wofford competes with every MVFC team this year sans NDSU), but ETSU is a playoff team if they win one more game.



Yep Paladins up 27-6 and in comes Herink for ETSU, the rest is history, I wish they would have taken 1 more week to decide to switch lol

[semobison]

The MVFC is much stronger and deeper than the SoCon. Just like the SoCon is stronger and deeper than some other leagues. Their league is just too weak. When comparing MVFC and SoCon teams right now I feel like a 4-4 team in the MVFC is probably like a 5-3 or 6-2 team in the SoCon, depending on how many FBS teams they played. I would expect the top 3 teams in the MVFC to win the SoCon this year with only Wofford making it close or having a shot because those teams don't see the option. I feel like UTC and ETSU are 20-30 type teams right now with Samford not being a top 30 team. I feel like UTC, Samford, and ETSU are about equal or close with UNI, WIU, and USD. It is hard to pick between those teams right now. The SoCon does seem to be a little bit better so I'm thinking those would be great games and I'm not sure who would win. I have Furman just outside of that group with those teams. Furman has to win this week or I won't put them in my top 25-35 range. I try to stack a top 40 or so every week and then after week 10 I try to narrow it down to just 35 teams to consider so they need to win the next 2 games or I probably won't have them in my top 35 or so for consideration.

This is all spot on but if a Valley fan posts it were bias!

[Reign of Terrier]

Take away NDSU and the rest of the Valley isn't that impressive this year. I like Wofford's chances against UNI, Illinois State, SDSU, really any of them.

Wofford has sent teams of varying quality to the playoffs. Some with a great offense but so-so defense (2007, 2008), some with great defense but overall inconsistency (2011, 2017), some with a bad offense that had no business making it to the quarterfinals (2012), and some with the ability on any given Saturday to win it all (2003, 2007, 2008, 2010) and some TBD (2016).

Yet through all of that, the only time we got whipped by anyone was NDSU last year. We lost to YSU in double OT and to UNI when we probably weren't great in 2011. We also were 7 points separated by NDSU in 2012 and we were not great that year on offense. Our offense was Eric Breteinstein and a prayer.

Pro MVFC arguments amount to 1) "we play and sometimes beat NDSU every year" 2) a lot of teams get into the playoffs and 3) there was an all MVFC championship once.


We're supposed to look past the fact that MVFC teams often get blown out in the playoffs too or the fact that some of your teams have really poor performances (losing to Butler)

The fact is, we don't really have enough data to say that the non-NDSU valley teams are all that much better than the top of the socon. Eliminate NDSU, take out wins non-scholarship teams and look at common opponents and it's not that much better.

Socon plays poor OOC, but the only team that lays an egg consistently in the playoffs is Samford.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

This is all spot on but if a Valley fan posts it were bias!


Aside from NDSU propping up the valley as they always do, I see not much difference in the valley/big sky/caa/socon this year
Your second best team SDSU could easily be 4-4 with loses to canceled game at Iowa St. and lucky OT win against Indiana st., nobody outside of NDSU in the valley would scare me this year at all

[semobison]

Aside from NDSU propping up the valley as they always do, I see not much difference in the valley/big sky/caa/socon this year
Your second best team SDSU could easily be 4-4 with loses to canceled game at Iowa St. and lucky OT win against Indiana st., nobody outside of NDSU in the valley would scare me this year at all

The beauty of FCS football is we will see when the playoffs come around. The Valleys record in the playoffs is pretty good. The year NDSU didn't make the final an unseeded Valley team did. Then threre was the year when we had an all Valley final. So, the next year they put all the Valley teams in the same bracket. Last year half the teams in the semi's were Valley teams. Wofford might take 2nd in our conference but they might take 4th or fifth. Things get tough when you play SDSU followed by Illinois State, then UNI. If you get through that don't sleep on ISUb, Missouri State,Youngstown or USD who won a playoff game last year. Maybe the Valley is down this year. The playoffs will sort it out and until then you are just guessing!

[semobison]

Aside from NDSU propping up the valley as they always do, I see not much difference in the valley/big sky/caa/socon this year
Your second best team SDSU could easily be 4-4 with loses to canceled game at Iowa St. and lucky OT win against Indiana st., nobody outside of NDSU in the valley would scare me this year at all

You do know that a few years ago there was a team from the MVFC who was 4-4 in conference play that won their first two playoff games easily and lost in the quarters to the eventual national champion in overtime.
So what if SDSU could be 4-4. They would still probably win the SoCon. Playoffs aren't far off. We will find out then if the Valley is down.

[FUGameBreaker]

You do know that a few years ago there was a team from the MVFC who was 4-4 in conference play that won their first two playoff games easily and lost in the quarters to the eventual national champion in overtime.
So what if SDSU could be 4-4. They would still probably win the SoCon. Playoffs aren't far off. We will find out then if the Valley is down.


We shall indeed

[gofurman]

It's all just conjecture... but do keep in mind that Furman has only had their starting QB - who makes A TON OF DIFFERNECE (ask young terrier) for THREE of our SEVEN games. THREE.

ETSU (loss by 2).. Western (win by 6) and then Wofford (win over a top 8 team by 20).. we were improving rapidly. YOu could see it with the eyeball test. Vs Wofford all the pieces were starting to fit on offense. Look, I am not propping Furman up. We aren't title contenders by a LONG SHOT. Just saying when you are missing your key quarterback for over half the season and still are even worth talking about that's at least a little something. Had Roberts (starting QB) been healthy all year I wonder if his extra reps help us beat ETSU or I really think we beat Samford because we score TDs instead of 4 FGs to start the game 12-10 at halftime.

I am objective. With him in the game for the whole year I put money we at least split those games.. at least.

All that said, it's probably not worth debating - the ONLY thing that would frustrate me is - and some Wofford guys who are our rivals even agree ! - if Furman goes 6-4 against THE EXACT SAME teams as last year where we got in the playoffs at 7-4.. and we get left out because of the hurricane Colgate game cancellation. That would sting - one thing FCS has always done right (playoffs !) is let you decide your fate on the field. This would be the exception to FCS always letting you play the game instead of 'guessing' what would have happened

last year - Furman 7-4.. EXACT SAME schedule (except FBS NC State and this year it was #2 Clemson)

And this year actually holds up better. We got in the playoffs last year at 7-4 with the criticism we didn't have a really good win. Well, same schedule and we have a 20 point whooping of top 10 Wofford this year ! Again, I don't think we will get to 6-4 this year. Not saying we will.. But IF IF IF we do I'll be durn we have a case for the playoffs as we were denied that 7th game by weather and have a much stronger win on our resume in top ten resume. Last year our best win was top 30 Colgate.

And this is FCS - decide it on the field. We beat COlgate by THIRTY last year. In New York. They were supposed to come to Furman this year. We beat a team ranked higher than them this year in Wofford so we can't say that Furman couldn't have beaten COlgate... can't say either way really


*It would almost be easier on Furman fans if we DIDN"T get to 6-4... LOL - because then the cancelled game really is a murky issue

[Mayville Bison]

Take away NDSU and the rest of the Valley isn't that impressive this year. I like Wofford's chances against UNI, Illinois State, SDSU, really any of them.

Wofford has sent teams of varying quality to the playoffs. Some with a great offense but so-so defense (2007, 2008), some with great defense but overall inconsistency (2011, 2017), some with a bad offense that had no business making it to the quarterfinals (2012), and some with the ability on any given Saturday to win it all (2003, 2007, 2008, 2010) and some TBD (2016).

Yet through all of that, the only time we got whipped by anyone was NDSU last year. We lost to YSU in double OT and to UNI when we probably weren't great in 2011. We also were 7 points separated by NDSU in 2012 and we were not great that year on offense. Our offense was Eric Breteinstein and a prayer.

Pro MVFC arguments amount to 1) "we play and sometimes beat NDSU every year" 2) a lot of teams get into the playoffs and 3) there was an all MVFC championship once.


We're supposed to look past the fact that MVFC teams often get blown out in the playoffs too or the fact that some of your teams have really poor performances (losing to Butler)

The fact is, we don't really have enough data to say that the non-NDSU valley teams are all that much better than the top of the socon. Eliminate NDSU, take out wins non-scholarship teams and look at common opponents and it's not that much better.

Socon plays poor OOC, but the only team that lays an egg consistently in the playoffs is Samford.

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Yeah, because that happens so often in non MVFC matchups. I can think of 3 in the past 6 years and I'm probably missing one. One was in the Semi-finals (SDSU-17), one was SDSU/EWU game in 2013 and one was the 5th MVFC Indiana State losing to Chatty somewhere in between.

[FUGameBreaker]

Yeah, because that happens so often in non MVFC matchups. I can think of 3 in the past 6 years and I'm probably missing one. One was in the Semi-finals (SDSU-17), one was SDSU/EWU game in 2013 and one was the 5th MVFC Indiana State losing to Chatty somewhere in between.



The one huge advantage the MVFC teams have had over the rest of FCS in the last 8 years is that they actually get to play NDSU at home, where as the rest of FCS has to trek to Fargo in the playoffs, and they have failed miserably in these attempts at home to take down NDSU. If MVFC teams could be more balanced and protect their home field a little better then NDSU would not always be set up to run to Frisco from the comfort of Fargo every year, the last road playoff game NDSU played was a loss at EWU in 2010, I want to see the valley step up more in its competitiveness against NDSU before I actually chalk the rest of that league up to being anything different than the rest of FCS.

[Sycamore62]

Yeah, because that happens so often in non MVFC matchups. I can think of 3 in the past 6 years and I'm probably missing one. One was in the Semi-finals (SDSU-17), one was SDSU/EWU game in 2013 and one was the 5th MVFC Indiana State losing to Chatty somewhere in between.

2014 and that was after beating EKU by 20

[Reign of Terrier]

Yeah, because that happens so often in non MVFC matchups. I can think of 3 in the past 6 years and I'm probably missing one. One was in the Semi-finals (SDSU-17), one was SDSU/EWU game in 2013 and one was the 5th MVFC Indiana State losing to Chatty somewhere in between.


Let's operate under the assumption that the NEC, MEAC, Patriot, Pioneer, and OVC are not as good as the Southland, MVFC, Southern, Big Sky, CAA, and Big South (some years the Big South is good, some years it isn't)

Now, let's remove NDSU out of any conversation for obvious reasons

Going back to 2013 (I use that year because it was the first year without Georgia Southern/App State in the subdivision and the first with the 24 team playoff).

In 2013, only 2 MVFC teams made the playoffs. South Dakota State was blown out. They had a decent win against UNA. so 1-1 outside of NDSU

In 2014, 5 teams made the playoffs. They were 3-1 against non-MVFC teams, and 2-1 against "good" conferences. SDSU beat Montana State (who was 8-4) by a touchdown and they whalloped the fourth place Southland team.

In 2015, 5 teams made it again, they were 3-2 against non-MVFC teams, but 2 of those wins came against an OVC and Pioneer opponents.

In 2016, 4 teams made it. Youngstown State went on a run that year. Good for them. Most impressive run of the last few years in terms of representing the MVFC in the playoffs. They beat 3 "power" conferences, 2 of which went down to the wire. But outside of them and NDSU (obviously), the remaining teams went 1-1, one of which was a blowout. So, 5-2 overall but 4-2 against power opponents (if you want to count Jacksonville State as a power opponent), but only one quality blowout (Samford, who lays eggs in the playoffs)

In 2017, the MVFC sent 5 to the playoffs. other than MVFC losses and NDSU, they went 3-3, 2-3 against "good teams" but the wins were all against bubbles. UNI beat a not-fully-funded Monmouth team, Western Illinois lost to Weber (admittedly a good loss), and South Dakota beat last teams-in Nichols before losing to SHSU. South Dakota State only beat New Hampshire, whose admittance was controversial (though admittedly went on a run, upsetting UCA).

Executive summary:
So, if you tally up all the non-MVFC, non-NDSU playoffs in the last 5 years, the MVFC went 15-9 in those matchups. That's a good number, but when you look at the actual scores in some of these games, most of them weren't blowouts, and if you take out games against non-power teams (Monmouth, Dayton, OVC teams that aren't JSU), that number drops to 11. 11-9 isn't really dominate or a great example of being head and shoulders above the rest of the FCS.

Now, anyone can check my numbers here, so I could be off by a game or two either way. I'm not saying that the MVFC isn't tough or that they don't have a team every year that can go on a run not named NDSU. My point is, *based on playoff appearances,* there's no strong evidence that the MVFC is head and shoulders above the FCS outside NDSU.

The CAA and MVFC generally benefit from playing at least one non-scholarship team every year in the time frame I've outlined. Meanwhile, other conferences like the Socon and Southland and Big South don't usually get that option.

[semobison]

Let's operate under the assumption that the NEC, MEAC, Patriot, Pioneer, and OVC are not as good as the Southland, MVFC, Southern, Big Sky, CAA, and Big South (some years the Big South is good, some years it isn't)

Now, let's remove NDSU out of any conversation for obvious reasons

Going back to 2013 (I use that year because it was the first year without Georgia Southern/App State in the subdivision and the first with the 24 team playoff).

In 2013, only 2 MVFC teams made the playoffs. South Dakota State was blown out. They had a decent win against UNA. so 1-1 outside of NDSU

In 2014, 5 teams made the playoffs. They were 3-1 against non-MVFC teams, and 2-1 against "good" conferences. SDSU beat Montana State (who was 8-4) by a touchdown and they whalloped the fourth place Southland team.

In 2015, 5 teams made it again, they were 3-2 against non-MVFC teams, but 2 of those wins came against an OVC and Pioneer opponents.

In 2016, 4 teams made it. Youngstown State went on a run that year. Good for them. Most impressive run of the last few years in terms of representing the MVFC in the playoffs. They beat 3 "power" conferences, 2 of which went down to the wire. But outside of them and NDSU (obviously), the remaining teams went 1-1, one of which was a blowout. So, 5-2 overall but 4-2 against power opponents (if you want to count Jacksonville State as a power opponent), but only one quality blowout (Samford, who lays eggs in the playoffs)

In 2017, the MVFC sent 5 to the playoffs. other than MVFC losses and NDSU, they went 3-3, 2-3 against "good teams" but the wins were all against bubbles. UNI beat a not-fully-funded Monmouth team, Western Illinois lost to Weber (admittedly a good loss), and South Dakota beat last teams-in Nichols before losing to SHSU. South Dakota State only beat New Hampshire, whose admittance was controversial (though admittedly went on a run, upsetting UCA).

Executive summary:
So, if you tally up all the non-MVFC, non-NDSU playoffs in the last 5 years, the MVFC went 15-9 in those matchups. That's a good number, but when you look at the actual scores in some of these games, most of them weren't blowouts, and if you take out games against non-power teams (Monmouth, Dayton, OVC teams that aren't JSU), that number drops to 11. 11-9 isn't really dominate or a great example of being head and shoulders above the rest of the FCS.

Now, anyone can check my numbers here, so I could be off by a game or two either way. I'm not saying that the MVFC isn't tough or that they don't have a team every year that can go on a run not named NDSU. My point is, *based on playoff appearances,* there's no strong evidence that the MVFC is head and shoulders above the FCS outside NDSU.

The CAA and MVFC generally benefit from playing at least one non-scholarship team every year in the time frame I've outlined. Meanwhile, other conferences like the Socon and Southland and Big South don't usually get that option.

The last SoCon team to make a semifinal playoff was (cough...cough) Georgia Southern in 2012. Since 2014 three MVFC teams not named NDSU have made the semi's, and two of them made the final. No assumptions here, just facts!

[FUGameBreaker]

MVFC has the luxury of having essentially an FBS program (NDSU) to bolster it into the top spot of FCS conferences, there is no doubt NDSU is good as hell and should be FBS already. However for their own various reasons highlighted in other threads they are still FCS, if NDSU left the Valley it would instantly be 100% on par and level with the rest of the top tier conferences in the FCS world

[OhioHen]

If you currently have 4-4 UNI in your poll, then a 4-4 Furman team should be in your poll next week

Since 4-4 UNI is NOT in my top 25, does that mean next week I SHOULD omit a (theoretically) 4-4 Furman as well?

[FUGameBreaker]

Since 4-4 UNI is NOT in my top 25, does that mean next week I SHOULD omit a (theoretically) 4-4 Furman as well?


Fair enough that's your call of course, but 287 points to UNI means a good many posters are ranking them

[Reign of Terrier]

The last SoCon team to make a semifinal playoff was (cough...cough) Georgia Southern in 2012. Since 2014 three MVFC teams not named NDSU have made the semi's, and two of them made the final. No assumptions here, just facts!

Because of geography, that's not a sufficient measure for superior conference play. Because if you get a bye, you really only need to play one team outside of your conference to make it to the semis. You've

And if you get cozy with the committee and have 4 or 5 teams in every year, the probability that you can make the semis by throttling an NEC team and beating a conference opponent increases.

You can dumb down the conversation as much as you want, but 11-9 is only one outcome above .500. That's not dominant.

[Mayville Bison]

Let's operate under the assumption that the NEC, MEAC, Patriot, Pioneer, and OVC are not as good as the Southland, MVFC, Southern, Big Sky, CAA, and Big South (some years the Big South is good, some years it isn't)

Now, let's remove NDSU out of any conversation for obvious reasons

Going back to 2013 (I use that year because it was the first year without Georgia Southern/App State in the subdivision and the first with the 24 team playoff).

In 2013, only 2 MVFC teams made the playoffs. South Dakota State was blown out. They had a decent win against UNA. so 1-1 outside of NDSU

In 2014, 5 teams made the playoffs. They were 3-1 against non-MVFC teams, and 2-1 against "good" conferences. SDSU beat Montana State (who was 8-4) by a touchdown and they whalloped the fourth place Southland team.

In 2015, 5 teams made it again, they were 3-2 against non-MVFC teams, but 2 of those wins came against an OVC and Pioneer opponents.

In 2016, 4 teams made it. Youngstown State went on a run that year. Good for them. Most impressive run of the last few years in terms of representing the MVFC in the playoffs. They beat 3 "power" conferences, 2 of which went down to the wire. But outside of them and NDSU (obviously), the remaining teams went 1-1, one of which was a blowout. So, 5-2 overall but 4-2 against power opponents (if you want to count Jacksonville State as a power opponent), but only one quality blowout (Samford, who lays eggs in the playoffs)

In 2017, the MVFC sent 5 to the playoffs. other than MVFC losses and NDSU, they went 3-3, 2-3 against "good teams" but the wins were all against bubbles. UNI beat a not-fully-funded Monmouth team, Western Illinois lost to Weber (admittedly a good loss), and South Dakota beat last teams-in Nichols before losing to SHSU. South Dakota State only beat New Hampshire, whose admittance was controversial (though admittedly went on a run, upsetting UCA).

Executive summary:
So, if you tally up all the non-MVFC, non-NDSU playoffs in the last 5 years, the MVFC went 15-9 in those matchups. That's a good number, but when you look at the actual scores in some of these games, most of them weren't blowouts, and if you take out games against non-power teams (Monmouth, Dayton, OVC teams that aren't JSU), that number drops to 11. 11-9 isn't really dominate or a great example of being head and shoulders above the rest of the FCS.

Now, anyone can check my numbers here, so I could be off by a game or two either way. I'm not saying that the MVFC isn't tough or that they don't have a team every year that can go on a run not named NDSU. My point is, *based on playoff appearances,* there's no strong evidence that the MVFC is head and shoulders above the FCS outside NDSU.

The CAA and MVFC generally benefit from playing at least one non-scholarship team every year in the time frame I've outlined. Meanwhile, other conferences like the Socon and Southland and Big South don't usually get that option.

One major flaw in all of this is if you take out NDSU, that's 7-8 teams in conference that don't have an extra loss. That's often times the difference between a seed and a non-seed or a bubble team into an at-large berth.

2013 - spot on
2014 - Indiana State (1-1; 0-1 good conferences), SDSU (1-0; 0-0 good conferences), UNI (1-0; 0-0 good conferences), Illinois State (2-0; 2-0 good conferences), so 5-1 against non-MVFC teams and 2-1 against good conferences. Reminder that first non-NDSU MVFC team made the championship game.
2015 - spot on
2016 - Illinois State (last team in the playoffs at 6-5) (0-1; 0-1 good conferences), YSU (4-1; 3-1 good conferences), SDSU (1-0; 1-0 good conferences), so 5-2 against non-MVFC teams and 4-2 against good conferences without counting JSU. No blowout non-MVFC game losses. 2nd team not NDSU to make the championship game.
2017 - Spot on except for the fact that you are discounting a win against UNH because they were last team in. Beating a team that wins 2 playoff games is still a solid victory.

Show me any other conference where you take out one team and has results like that and I'll agree the MVFC has come back to the pack. I'd also argue that the 2015 UNI team could have won the championship if not for NDSU being in their way. I'd also argue that the 2014 Illinois State and/or SDSU could have won the championship if not for NDSU being in their way.

[ST_Lawson]

The one huge advantage the MVFC teams have had over the rest of FCS in the last 8 years is that they actually get to play NDSU at home, where as the rest of FCS has to trek to Fargo in the playoffs, and they have failed miserably in these attempts at home to take down NDSU. If MVFC teams could be more balanced and protect their home field a little better then NDSU would not always be set up to run to Frisco from the comfort of Fargo every year, the last road playoff game NDSU played was a loss at EWU in 2010, I want to see the valley step up more in its competitiveness against NDSU before I actually chalk the rest of that league up to being anything different than the rest of FCS.

I apologize for all the rest of us MVFC teams that apparently don't try when NDSU shows up.

One other point...NDSU actually has lost more at home than they have on the road since 2011. 5 losses in the Fargodome, 3 losses away. And the only two times my Leathernecks have beaten NDSU...2008 and 2010...in the Fargodome.

[Professor Chaos]

If you take away NDSU (and their ridiculous 28-2 all-time postseason record) the rest of the teams in the current MVFC are still 85-65 (56.7% winning percentage) all-time in the playoffs. That's better than the current makeup of any other conference all-time in the playoffs (and if you take away the most successful team from any of those conferences the numbers would contrast even more):

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/44927137794_33af4f0879.jpg

Disclaimer: what's not shown here is the 167 all-time playoff wins (with a 61.6% win percentage) that former FCS/current FBS teams have.

[FUGameBreaker]

I apologize for all the rest of us MVFC teams that apparently don't try when NDSU shows up.

One other point...NDSU actually has lost more at home than they have on the road since 2011. 5 losses in the Fargodome, 3 losses away. And the only two times my Leathernecks have beaten NDSU...2008 and 2010...in the Fargodome.


Of course they have 2 more losses in the Fargodome than on the road, they play around 75% of their total games there

[Reign of Terrier]

One major flaw in all of this is if you take out NDSU, that's 7-8 teams in conference that don't have an extra loss. That's often times the difference between a seed and a non-seed or a bubble team into an at-large berth.

2013 - spot on
2014 - Indiana State (1-1; 0-1 good conferences), SDSU (1-0; 0-0 good conferences), UNI (1-0; 0-0 good conferences), Illinois State (2-0; 2-0 good conferences), so 5-1 against non-MVFC teams and 2-1 against good conferences. Reminder that first non-NDSU MVFC team made the championship game.
2015 - spot on
2016 - Illinois State (last team in the playoffs at 6-5) (0-1; 0-1 good conferences), YSU (4-1; 3-1 good conferences), SDSU (1-0; 1-0 good conferences), so 5-2 against non-MVFC teams and 4-2 against good conferences without counting JSU. No blowout non-MVFC game losses. 2nd team not NDSU to make the championship game.
2017 - Spot on except for the fact that you are discounting a win against UNH because they were last team in. Beating a team that wins 2 playoff games is still a solid victory.

Show me any other conference where you take out one team and has results like that and I'll agree the MVFC has come back to the pack. I'd also argue that the 2015 UNI team could have won the championship if not for NDSU being in their way. I'd also argue that the 2014 Illinois State and/or SDSU could have won the championship if not for NDSU being in their way.

the entire point is that the valley is not as good without NDSU. So I will continue to take them out to make my point. The depth is kind of an illusion. It's a deep conference, yes, but top-to-bottom it's not spectacular. Sure, teams may be "in" every game, but that can be said about most conferences. At the end of the day, the only teams consistently competing for a playoff spot (and subsequently doing something with it) are UNI, NDSU, SDSU, and Illinois State and then another team (sometimes Youngstown, sometimes Western Illinois, sometimes South Dakota). Yes, there's one other team (usually) competing for a fifth spot, but those are the "only" four consistent.

Southern Illinois, Missouri State, Indiana State, South Dakota, and Western Illinois combine for 4 playoff wins since 2010. Two came from Western Illinois and one of those was against Dayton.

Meanwhile, Youngstown State had a great 2016. But they haven't made the playoffs other than that year.

We're not seeing a conference with as much high turnover as advertised.

[Reign of Terrier]

If you take away NDSU (and their ridiculous 28-2 all-time postseason record) the rest of the teams in the current MVFC are still 85-65 (56.7% winning percentage) all-time in the playoffs. That's better than the current makeup of any other conference all-time in the playoffs (and if you take away the most successful team from any of those conferences the numbers would contrast even more):

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/44927137794_33af4f0879.jpg

Disclaimer: what's not shown here is the 167 all-time playoff wins (with a 61.6% win percentage) that former FCS/current FBS teams have.

And that's kind of a big deal to leave that out. You can't say that we're "all time better" while neglecting the all-time part. But we're talking about modern conferences. I'm not going to argue that the MVFC or CAA isn't the best conference, but if you take out the non-full-D1 games they get to play +NDSU, the conference isn't as dominant in the last ~5 years or so as their advocates would say.

[FUGameBreaker]

NDSU if you go undefeated this year please just go ahead and move up to FBS somehow so that we can find out who is right lol xthumbsupx

[Professor Chaos]

Of course they have 2 more losses in the Fargodome than on the road, they play around 80% of there total games there
Since 2011 NDSU's winning percentage is 92.6% at home (63-5) and 93.2 % on the road (41-3) or 92.1% (35-3) if you want to take the Frisco games out of it. It doesn't matter.

[FUGameBreaker]

Since 2011 NDSU's winning percentage is 92.6% at home (63-5) and 93.2 % on the road (41-3) or 92.1% (35-3) if you want to take the Frisco games out of it. It doesn't matter.

That's basically my point, look you have 68 home games and 38 road games, so of course you have 2 more losses at home


Side note: I think we can all agree you guys do a good job of making Frisco a home game lol xthumbsupx

[Professor Chaos]

And that's kind of a big deal to leave that out. You can't say that we're "all time better" while neglecting the all-time part. But we're talking about modern conferences. I'm not going to argue that the MVFC or CAA isn't the best conference, but if you take out the non-full-D1 games they get to play +NDSU, the conference isn't as dominant in the last ~5 years or so as their advocates would say.
My point was the current make-up of the MVFC minus NDSU is historically better in the playoffs than the current makeup of any other FCS conference right now. Here's the numbers from just 2013-2017:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/31780053688_9c176f2854.jpg

You take away NDSU and their 18-1 playoff record in that timeframe and the MVFC is 20-16 (55.6%). Take away JMU (7-3 in that timeframe) from the CAA and they're 20-15 (57.1%). Take away SHSU (10-5) from the Southland and they're 1-6. So the CAA has been just as good as the MVFC in the last 5 years minus each conference's best team and better than the MVFC if you just take out NDSU and leave the CAA as currently constituted.

EDIT: Of course I could also argue that the CAA has been the main beneficiary of some NEC/Patriot League 1st round cupcakes in that timeframe as well while the MVFC seems to be matched up with teams from the Big Sky more than any other conference.

[FUGameBreaker]

My point was the current make-up of the MVFC minus NDSU is historically better in the playoffs than the current makeup of any other FCS conference right now. Here's the numbers from just 2013-2017:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/31780053688_9c176f2854.jpg

You take away NDSU and their 18-1 playoff record in that timeframe and the MVFC is 20-16 (55.6%). Take away JMU (7-3 in that timeframe) from the CAA and they're 20-15 (57.1%). Take away SHSU (10-5) from the Southland and they're 1-6. So the CAA has been just as good as the MVFC in the last 5 years minus each conference's best team and better than the MVFC if you just take out NDSU and leave the CAA as currently constituted.




How many NDSU titles in a row would it take for you guys to move to FBS? lol

[Reign of Terrier]

My point was the current make-up of the MVFC minus NDSU is historically better in the playoffs than the current makeup of any other FCS conference right now. Here's the numbers from just 2013-2017:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/31780053688_9c176f2854.jpg

You take away NDSU and their 18-1 playoff record in that timeframe and the MVFC is 20-16 (55.6%). Take away JMU (7-3 in that timeframe) from the CAA and they're 20-15 (57.1%). Take away SHSU (10-5) from the Southland and they're 1-6. So the CAA has been just as good as the MVFC in the last 5 years minus each conference's best team and better than the MVFC if you just take out MVFC and leave the CAA as currently constituted.


Good stuff! And that's my point. If we go a step farther and remove the W's that come from Patriot, Pioneer, NEC (+Monmouth last year, not sure how many scholarships they had) it probably gets a bit closer.

I know this seems like overfitting and really pedantic, but my general point is that the NDSU-less MVFC isn't lightyears ahead of other "power" conferences if you look at these measures and control accordingly. Both the MVFC and CAA benefit from playing the aforementioned weaker conferences frequently in the playoffs, but there's good parity between the Socon, MVFC, Big Sky, and CAA. Even though I'm pretty sure the Socon would be on the bottom of those 4 even when you control for those figures, most the games are competitive.

(sidenote: Jacksonville has most of the wins for the OVC too)

[gotts]

How many NDSU titles in a row would it take for you guys to move to FBS? lol

$40MM a year in financial contributions is the start to the correct answer.

[Reign of Terrier]

$40MM a year in financial contributions is the start to the correct answer.

psh, Wofford's fund-raised $280mm in the last ~3 years or so (maybe less). Y'all can do it!

[FUGameBreaker]

$40MM a year in financial contributions is the start to the correct answer.



Meaning so you can essentially build a new Dome? (plus other increased FBS expenditures)

[Thumper 76]

My point was the current make-up of the MVFC minus NDSU is historically better in the playoffs than the current makeup of any other FCS conference right now. Here's the numbers from just 2013-2017:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/31780053688_9c176f2854.jpg

You take away NDSU and their 18-1 playoff record in that timeframe and the MVFC is 20-16 (55.6%). Take away JMU (7-3 in that timeframe) from the CAA and they're 20-15 (57.1%). Take away SHSU (10-5) from the Southland and they're 1-6. So the CAA has been just as good as the MVFC in the last 5 years minus each conference's best team and better than the MVFC if you just take out NDSU and leave the CAA as currently constituted.

With that record of dropping out the NDSU wins and losses are you also dropping out the losses MVFC teams may have had against them as well?


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[Professor Chaos]

With that record of dropping out the NDSU wins and losses are you also dropping out the losses MVFC teams may have had against them as well?


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No I didn't and that's good point. My handy dandy Power BI workbook doesn't have the data detail to take away the losses to a particular team but, by my recollection, NDSU has 4 playoff wins vs MVFC teams in that timeframe (SDSU and ISUr in '14, UNI in '15, and SDSU in '16). So that would be 20-12 (62.5%) for the rest of the MVFC. However, the rest of the conferences would improve there as well. The CAA was 1-4 vs NDSU in that timeframe so they'd improve to 26-14 (65%) or an identical 20-12 (62.5%) without JMU.

[Thumper 76]

Good stuff! And that's my point. If we go a step farther and remove the W's that come from Patriot, Pioneer, NEC (+Monmouth last year, not sure how many scholarships they had) it probably gets a bit closer.

I know this seems like overfitting and really pedantic, but my general point is that the NDSU-less MVFC isn't lightyears ahead of other "power" conferences if you look at these measures and control accordingly. Both the MVFC and CAA benefit from playing the aforementioned weaker conferences frequently in the playoffs, but there's good parity between the Socon, MVFC, Big Sky, and CAA. Even though I'm pretty sure the Socon would be on the bottom of those 4 even when you control for those figures, most the games are competitive.

(sidenote: Jacksonville has most of the wins for the OVC too)

I think you’re trying to lie to yourself here. Two of the conferences you reference (CAA and MVFC) are well above .500 with a winning record in the playoffs even with NDSU removed, while two (Big Sky and SoCon) are firmly below .500 with a losing record in the playoffs. You can try to shout regionalization at me for the SoCon but you can wipe your tears and stiffen that lip talking to a SDSU fan about that. Also, those games end up being a zero sum for the conference playoff record anyways, so they don’t help or hurt for the for the overall record. This shows me that two conferences are head and shoulders above the other two.


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[Reign of Terrier]

I think you’re trying to lie to yourself here. Two of the conferences you reference (CAA and MVFC) are well above .500 with a winning record in the playoffs even with NDSU removed, while two (Big Sky and SoCon) are firmly below .500 with a losing record in the playoffs. You can try to shout regionalization at me for the SoCon but you can wipe your tears and stiffen that lip talking to a SDSU fan about that. Also, those games end up being a zero sum for the conference playoff record anyways, so they don’t help or hurt for the for the overall record. This shows me that two conferences are head and shoulders above the other two.


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"Firmly below?" How about right at .500 when you take out the 3 losses the Socon has to NDSU?

Point is, MVFC teams outside of NDSU are 10-9 against the CAA, Socon, Southland and Big Sky since 2013. That's not dominance.

Go back and see how often a Socon team or Southland team gets scheduled a NEC, Patriot, or Pioneer team in the playoffs. The only one that comes to mind for the socon is Chattanooga few years back (spoiler, they won) whereas the MVFC and CAA play them regularly.

the W-L of the CAA and MVFC gets pretty padded. Regionalization may equally screw every team, but some conferences (namely the CAA slightly over the MVFC) get less screwed by it

[Thumper 76]

"Firmly below?" How about right at .500 when you take out the 3 losses the Socon has to NDSU?

Point is, MVFC teams outside of NDSU are 10-9 against the CAA, Socon, Southland and Big Sky since 2013. That's not dominance.

So, the entire conference, minus it’s best team, is over .500 even after you deep dive doing your best to make it look bad. What are the other conferences record against the best conferences all combined? Why did you randomly include the Southland when they weren’t a part of the conversation? Maybe because the record wasn’t what you hoped for without adding them?


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[Mayville Bison]

the entire point is that the valley is not as good without NDSU. So I will continue to take them out to make my point. The depth is kind of an illusion. It's a deep conference, yes, but top-to-bottom it's not spectacular. Sure, teams may be "in" every game, but that can be said about most conferences. At the end of the day, the only teams consistently competing for a playoff spot (and subsequently doing something with it) are UNI, NDSU, SDSU, and Illinois State and then another team (sometimes Youngstown, sometimes Western Illinois, sometimes South Dakota). Yes, there's one other team (usually) competing for a fifth spot, but those are the "only" four consistent.

Southern Illinois, Missouri State, Indiana State, South Dakota, and Western Illinois combine for 4 playoff wins since 2010. Two came from Western Illinois and one of those was against Dayton.

Meanwhile, Youngstown State had a great 2016. But they haven't made the playoffs other than that year.

We're not seeing a conference with as much high turnover as advertised.

If the entire point is that the valley is not as good without NDSU, then how come 2 other teams made the championship game during that same 5 year span you were talking about? Take out NDSU, and it's possible that could be 4 teams as I mentioned. It's not SDSU or UNI's fault they ran into a one-in-a-lifetime dynasty.

No one is saying ISUb, SIU, USD, WIU, or MSU is a favorite to win a championship, but the other 5 could and they've shown that on the field at some point during the past 5 years.

I'll gladly evaluate the SoCon by only looking at VMI, ETSU, The Citadel, and WCU if that's what you'd like. How good is the CAA, Big Sky, or (God forbid) the Southland if you only look at the bottom half of the league. No one wants that. Every conference wants to talk about their top half and what they do for the conference. And yes, the CAA, SoCon, and Big Sky's top half are probably right on par with a NDSU-less MVFC, but they aren't a team that "often gets blown out" in the playoffs - which is what I initially questioned.

[Reign of Terrier]

So, the entire conference, minus it’s best team, is over .500 even after you deep dive doing your best to make it look bad. What are the other conferences record against the best conferences all combined? Why did you randomly include the Southland when they weren’t a part of the conversation? Maybe because the record wasn’t what you hoped for without adding them?


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I considered the Southland because they regularly win playoff games (NEC, OVC, Patriot, etc, can't say that). You can go back to do the work yourself on that one if you want, but my intuition is that it wouldn't do much. Heck, including the Southland may hurt the MVFC in this discussion as I'm pretty sure the only matchup between the two conferences that wasn't Sam Houston or NDSU was Nicholls and South Dakota which SD won.

So 9-9 against the other conferences? You can check me on that, it's fine, I legitimately haven't worked it out. But as far as I'm concerned, 10-9 or 9-9 isn't really much to chest-beat dominance. Playoff record and the round you advance equivocates the quality of each league because of regionalization and the differing quality among some conferences. Southern, Socon, and Big South usually get penalized by having to play (on average) tougher teams than the CAA/MVFC in the first round.

[Reign of Terrier]

If the entire point is that the valley is not as good without NDSU, then how come 2 other teams made the championship game during that same 5 year span you were talking about? Take out NDSU, and it's possible that could be 4 teams as I mentioned. It's not SDSU or UNI's fault they ran into a one-in-a-lifetime dynasty.

No one is saying ISUb, SIU, USD, WIU, or MSU is a favorite to win a championship, but the other 5 could and they've shown that on the field at some point during the past 5 years.

I'll gladly evaluate the SoCon by only looking at VMI, ETSU, The Citadel, and WCU if that's what you'd like. How good is the CAA, Big Sky, or (God forbid) the Southland if you only look at the bottom half of the league. No one wants that. Every conference wants to talk about their top half and what they do for the conference. And yes, the CAA, SoCon, and Big Sky's top half are probably right on par with a NDSU-less MVFC, but they aren't a team that "often gets blown out" in the playoffs - which is what I initially questioned.

1) I basically agree with this post

2) As for the teams that advanced to the championship game,see my last post; playoff positioning isn't always the best metric for conference quality. Tournaments are great at demonstrating the best team, but not the second best team. I think Illinois State and Youngstown state accomplished something pretty awesome, but was also to some extent a flash in the pan (especially for YSU)

3) It's the Valley fans that say that the MVFC is top-to-bottom the best league, with my point about ISUb, USD, etc is that the bottom half is predictably overrated compared to the hype. No one is claiming that the Socon or Southland are better conferences. The burden of proof that the MVFC is top to bottom better than other conferences is squarely on those who claim it. I don't see sufficient evidence. Is the top half certifiably awesome? Yes. But that's a different claim.

4) there are plenty of examples of these teams getting beaten by double digits in the playoffs. I'm not trying to demonstrate that they are worse than top-tier CAA/Socon/etc teams, but that they are on par with them (a proposition you agree with).

5) This is only important because I don't think it's fair that we treat the bottom tier of the MVFC like it's that much better than other conference's bottom tier. It justifies making the FCS playoffs the MVFC invitational.

[Mayville Bison]

I considered the Southland because they regularly win playoff games (NEC, OVC, Patriot, etc, can't say that). You can go back to do the work yourself on that one if you want, but my intuition is that it wouldn't do much. Heck, including the Southland may hurt the MVFC in this discussion as I'm pretty sure the only matchup between the two conferences that wasn't Sam Houston or NDSU was Nicholls and South Dakota which SD won.

So 9-9 against the other conferences? You can check me on that, it's fine, I legitimately haven't worked it out. But as far as I'm concerned, 10-9 or 9-9 isn't really much to chest-beat dominance. Playoff record and the round you advance equivocates the quality of each league because of regionalization and the differing quality among some conferences. Southern, Socon, and Big South usually get penalized by having to play (on average) tougher teams than the CAA/MVFC in the first round.

Wait, why are you including the Big South as a "power conference" and the OVC as not? They are pretty much the same thing. One dominant team each year with maybe a second one making some noise.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wait, why are you including the Big South as a "power conference" and the OVC as not? They are pretty much the same thing. One dominant team each year with maybe a second one making some noise.

They're in a weird spot. I haven't counted them for these purposes, but also the MVFC has only played them through NDSU so it's a moot point. The difference between the OVC and the Big South is that the Big South has had multiple teams make the playoffs and win a few games (Coastal Carolina, Charleston Southern, Kennesaw State). The specific teams that the Big South has produced (sans Monmouth, who I don't think had full scholarship allotment) got to the quarterfinals regularly. OVC did that with one team, JSU.

I'm just using them as a general point about regionalization. Namely, those teams are probably better than the teams some MVFC teams have faced in the first round (Dayton, Monmouth, Eastern Kentucky, etc). Say what you want about the Big South, but with the exception of Monmouth, they don't lay eggs in the playoffs.

[PaladinFan]

If the entire point is that the valley is not as good without NDSU, then how come 2 other teams made the championship game during that same 5 year span you were talking about? Take out NDSU, and it's possible that could be 4 teams as I mentioned. It's not SDSU or UNI's fault they ran into a one-in-a-lifetime dynasty.

No one is saying ISUb, SIU, USD, WIU, or MSU is a favorite to win a championship, but the other 5 could and they've shown that on the field at some point during the past 5 years.

I'll gladly evaluate the SoCon by only looking at VMI, ETSU, The Citadel, and WCU if that's what you'd like. How good is the CAA, Big Sky, or (God forbid) the Southland if you only look at the bottom half of the league. No one wants that. Every conference wants to talk about their top half and what they do for the conference. And yes, the CAA, SoCon, and Big Sky's top half are probably right on par with a NDSU-less MVFC, but they aren't a team that "often gets blown out" in the playoffs - which is what I initially questioned.

As a fan of a team that played in a conference with two dynastic programs (at different times) I can appreciate the position of being the team that can beat everyone else in the country but the team in your own conference.

[Mayville Bison]

2) As for the teams that advanced to the championship game,see my last post; playoff positioning isn't always the best metric for conference quality. Tournaments are great at demonstrating the best team, but not the second best team. I think Illinois State and Youngstown state accomplished something pretty awesome, but was also to some extent a flash in the pan (especially for YSU)


Very ironic you say YSU was a flash in the pan when they beat 2 SoCon teams a #2 and a #3 team


3) It's the Valley fans that say that the MVFC is top-to-bottom the best league, with my point about ISUb, USD, etc is that the bottom half is predictably overrated compared to the hype. No one is claiming that the Socon or Southland are better conferences. The burden of proof that the MVFC is top to bottom better than other conferences is squarely on those who claim it. I don't see sufficient evidence. Is the top half certifiably awesome? Yes. But that's a different claim.


Somehow prove the Valley isn't the best top-to-bottom league. Pretty sure Professor Chaos just stated facts on why they were. Not the burden of proof falls on someone else to discredit that theory.



4) there are plenty of examples of these teams getting beaten by double digits in the playoffs. I'm not trying to demonstrate that they are worse than top-tier CAA/Socon/etc teams, but that they are on par with them (a proposition you agree with).


Beaten by double digits is not getting blown out. I would characterize losing by more than two scores as the closest point, but could definitely be persuaded to move that to 20+. As I stated, I could come up with 3, so definitely not plenty of examples.


5) This is only important because I don't think it's fair that we treat the bottom tier of the MVFC like it's that much better than other conference's bottom tier. It justifies making the FCS playoffs the MVFC invitational.

I would honestly love for every conference to send no more than 3 teams each year. It would finally tell Youngstown to go to the OVC so the Valley didn't have an outlier team in it.

[Reign of Terrier]

Very ironic you say YSU was a flash in the pan when they beat 2 SoCon teams a #2 and a #3 team

I am aware. Samford always chokes in the playoffs and Wofford, though playoff worthy the last 2 years, has been a tad...off.


Somehow prove the Valley isn't the best top-to-bottom league. Pretty sure Professor Chaos just stated facts on why they were. Not the burden of proof falls on someone else to discredit that theory. he showed the playoff record of teams all-time. That's a very broad claim, separate from the quality of the conference at this moment. It's like saying Youngstown is a top-tier team right now because they won a lot of games in the 90s.



Beaten by double digits is not getting blown out. I would characterize losing by more than two scores as the closest point, but could definitely be persuaded to move that to 20+. As I stated, I could come up with 3, so definitely not plenty of examples.
fair enough, but sans NDSU, you don't see any of these teams blow out anyone in those top 4 conferences, so it's not like a head and shoulders above thing. Maybe a "better than chance" thing, but even then that's pushing it.



I would honestly love for every conference to send no more than 3 teams each year. It would finally tell Youngstown to go to the OVC so the Valley didn't have an outlier team in it.

I'm a proponent of valuing of SOS, but if you think the MVFC deserves to get multiple teams in at 6 wins over quality conferences with 9 wins, it can demonstrate how the "best conference" thinking can go awry. the logic evolves to be circular. Not saying you think that, but lots of Valley fans do.

[Thumper 76]

I considered the Southland because they regularly win playoff games (NEC, OVC, Patriot, etc, can't say that). You can go back to do the work yourself on that one if you want, but my intuition is that it wouldn't do much. Heck, including the Southland may hurt the MVFC in this discussion as I'm pretty sure the only matchup between the two conferences that wasn't Sam Houston or NDSU was Nicholls and South Dakota which SD won.

So 9-9 against the other conferences? You can check me on that, it's fine, I legitimately haven't worked it out. But as far as I'm concerned, 10-9 or 9-9 isn't really much to chest-beat dominance. Playoff record and the round you advance equivocates the quality of each league because of regionalization and the differing quality among some conferences. Southern, Socon, and Big South usually get penalized by having to play (on average) tougher teams than the CAA/MVFC in the first round.

The entire idea of dropping the car and away best from the one conference but not from the others is an uneven comparison at best.

I feel the reason you’re including the Big South as a power conference is so you can say the SoCon has such tough first round games. Do you have any proof that the MVFC gets this massive amount of easy first round games?

The ones I can think of was UNI last year in the first round and maybe YSU or WIU a couple years ago? If you aren’t counting NDSU in this discussion then their lay up playoff games probably shouldn’t count either or you’re just sliding the goalposts all over the place. From a SDSU standpoint because that’s what I know best, SDSU has played EIU when they had Jimmy Garrapollo, NAU, EWU, Montana, Montana State, Villanova, JMU, NDSU, UNH, and UNI. What a bunch of NEC patsies. If you want to look at playoff cupcakes I think an eye should be turned to the CAA if anywhere.


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[Reign of Terrier]

The entire idea of dropping the car and away best from the one conference but not from the others is an uneven comparison at best.

I feel the reason you’re including the Big South as a power conference is so you can say the SoCon has such tough first round games. Do you have any proof that the MVFC gets this massive amount of easy first round games?

The ones I can think of was UNI last year in the first round and maybe YSU or WIU a couple years ago? If you aren’t counting NDSU in this discussion then their lay up playoff games probably shouldn’t count either or you’re just sliding the goalposts all over the place. From a SDSU standpoint because that’s what I know best, SDSU has played EIU when they had Jimmy Garrapollo, NAU, EWU, Montana, Montana State, Villanova, JMU, NDSU, UNH, and UNI. What a bunch of NEC patsies. If you want to look at playoff cupcakes I think an eye should be turned to the CAA if anywhere.


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I wouldn't call the Big South a power conference. The Big South is *very* weird. Their best teams have always been competitive. Coastal Carolina gave NDSU a fight in Fargo, beat Montana on the road, and collected some other accolades. Charleston Southern made the quarterfinals and also competed well in Fargo. Kennesaw made the quarterfinals last year and is still a good team.

In 2015, the Citadel had to play both of these Big South teams when arguably the conference was at its peak. In 2016 they had to play the winner of Wofford-CSU (same year CSU went to Fargo). One bull**** aspect of the FCS playoffs for SC socon teams is that there's a lot of rematching with quality opponents.

The Big South has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline. That's different from the OVC, the Patriot, the Pioneer, the NEC and Monmouth (who is a Big South team but are they reallyyyyyyy).

The Big south may not be a power conference but the aforementioned teams are better than teams like Dayton and Monmouth and others that aforementioned MVFC teams got to play in the first half. I'm not including NDSU in any of this analysis. The MVFC and CAA (CAA more than the MVFC because they're closer to Patriot and NEC schools) gets more of these because of geography. The only time that the socon has played a nonscholarship team was Fordham in 2013.

So when I'm using the Big South as an example, it's more to demonstrate the strength of the Socon opponents in the playoffs relative to those teams. heck, when the socon plays an OVC team it's Jacksonville State, which as sketchy as they may be, they're still better than EKU.

It seems like the MVFC will have 1-2 teams seeded every year and the teams that aren't seeded will geographically play the so-so OVC teams or a patriot league. The only team in the Socon that will be that fortunate is Chattanooga (which happens!).

[semobison]

Since 2012 MVFC teams not named NDSU have 10 road game wins in the playoffs and 2 home game losses. Both of the losses were at Illinois State. The only other Valley team to lose a home playoff game is NDSU...but they don't count in this discussion
Maybe the Valley is down this year...big f'n deal. Just don't give me assumption and intuition as your basis of argument. Give me the facts...or dumb it up! I could make assumptions about what could have happened when they put all the Valley teams in the same bracket to avoid another all Valley final....but I won't!

[Reign of Terrier]

Since 2012 MVFC teams not named NDSU have 10 road game wins in the playoffs and 2 home game losses. Both of the losses were at Illinois State. The only other Valley team to lose a home playoff game is NDSU...but they don't count in this discussion
Maybe the Valley is down this year...big f'n deal. Just don't give me assumption and intuition as your basis of argument. Give me the facts...or dumb it up! I could make assumptions about what could have happened when they put all the Valley teams in the same bracket to avoid another all Valley final....but I won't!

Lucky for you we have lots of facts in this thread for you to evaluatexthumbsupx

[Kemo]

Do you have any proof that the MVFC gets this massive amount of easy first round games?

The ones I can think of was UNI last year in the first round and maybe YSU or WIU a couple years ago? If you aren’t counting NDSU in this discussion then their lay up playoff games probably shouldn’t count either or you’re just sliding the goalposts all over the place. From a SDSU standpoint because that’s what I know best, SDSU has played EIU when they had Jimmy Garrapollo, NAU, EWU, Montana, Montana State, Villanova, JMU, NDSU, UNH, and UNI. What a bunch of NEC patsies. If you want to look at playoff cupcakes I think an eye should be turned to the CAA if anywhere.
A good reminder that SDSU has never got a "cupcake" in the playoffs, even when they have had to play in the first round.

EIU was least difficult out of all of them, and their team was lead by a future NFL starting (debatably All-Pro) quarterback.

Maybe we'll get some sweets this year... but I doubt it. Because regionalization.

[Mayville Bison]

I wouldn't call the Big South a power conference. The Big South is *very* weird. Their best teams have always been competitive. Coastal Carolina gave NDSU a fight in Fargo, beat Montana on the road, and collected some other accolades. Charleston Southern made the quarterfinals and also competed well in Fargo. Kennesaw made the quarterfinals last year and is still a good team.

In 2015, the Citadel had to play both of these Big South teams when arguably the conference was at its peak. In 2016 they had to play the winner of Wofford-CSU (same year CSU went to Fargo). One bull**** aspect of the FCS playoffs for SC socon teams is that there's a lot of rematching with quality opponents.

The Big South has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline. That's different from the OVC, the Patriot, the Pioneer, the NEC and Monmouth (who is a Big South team but are they reallyyyyyyy).

The Big south may not be a power conference but the aforementioned teams are better than teams like Dayton and Monmouth and others that aforementioned MVFC teams got to play in the first half. I'm not including NDSU in any of this analysis. The MVFC and CAA (CAA more than the MVFC because they're closer to Patriot and NEC schools) gets more of these because of geography. The only time that the socon has played a nonscholarship team was Fordham in 2013.

So when I'm using the Big South as an example, it's more to demonstrate the strength of the Socon opponents in the playoffs relative to those teams. heck, when the socon plays an OVC team it's Jacksonville State, which as sketchy as they may be, they're still better than EKU.

It seems like the MVFC will have 1-2 teams seeded every year and the teams that aren't seeded will geographically play the so-so OVC teams or a patriot league. The only team in the Socon that will be that fortunate is Chattanooga (which happens!).

Again, how is the Big South and the OVC any different? "The Big South has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline" could be changed to "The OVC has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline."

As for opponents, it looks like a pretty good distribution to me. I think you are just a little upset with the 2015 playoff committee.

2017 first round opponents - Big South, Southland, and Big Sky
2016 first round opponents - Southland and SoCon
2015 first round opponents - OVC, Big Sky, and Pioneer
2014 first round opponents - Big Sky, Southland, OVC
2013 first round opponent - Big Sky
2012 first round opponents - OVC and SoCon
2011 first round opponent - SoCon
2010 first round opponents - Big South, NEC (but take this away if you are excluding, and Patriot

Big Sky - 4
Big South - 2
NEC - 1
OVC - 3
Patriot - 1
Pioneer - 1
SoCon - 3
Southland - 3

[Reign of Terrier]

Again, how is the Big South and the OVC any different? "The Big South has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline" could be changed to "The OVC has a ceiling of one good team and the rest is garbage and the second place team is borderline."

As for opponents, it looks like a pretty good distribution to me. I think you are just a little upset with the 2015 playoff committee.

2017 first round opponents - Big South, Southland, and Big Sky
2016 first round opponents - Southland and SoCon
2015 first round opponents - OVC, Big Sky, and Pioneer
2014 first round opponents - Big Sky, Southland, OVC
2013 first round opponent - Big Sky
2012 first round opponents - OVC and SoCon
2011 first round opponent - SoCon
2010 first round opponents - Big South, NEC (but take this away if you are excluding, and Patriot

Big Sky - 4
Big South - 2
NEC - 1
OVC - 3
Patriot - 1
Pioneer - 1
SoCon - 3
Southland - 3

Let me rephrase it then: outside of Jacksonville State, the OVC hasn't had a playoff win against a non-OVC team with full scholarships since the late 90s. So, 2 OVC teams not named JSU have playoff wins, but they were against Butler (I think) and another OVC team.

Contrast that with Coastal Carolina, that beat Richmond and Montana at one point, Kennesaw state that's already won 2 playoff games, and Charleston Southern who played respectably in all 3 games they played (2 of which were socon teams).

Also, I wouldn't count Monmouth as a true Big South team, just because of their scholarship restrictions. Anyway, compare the distribution to the distributions you see the Big Sky, Southland and Southern play and there's a distinction. There are few NEC, OVC, patriot, or pioneer first round games

[semobison]

Lucky for you we have lots of facts in this thread for you to evaluatexthumbsupx

I remember having this same discussion with you last year at about this time. Your argument is the same, long winded with a lot of assumptions and "your intuition."
That being said, the CAA and Big Sky appear to be up at this point of the season and the Valley maybe down a little. ISUb and Missouri State are improved while SDSU has a shot at a seed if they don't have a slip up. UNI, ISUr, and WIU are in a battle for their playoff lives. We may only get 3 this year depending how the last 3 weeks shake out.

[ST_Lawson]

How many NDSU titles in a row would it take for you guys to move to FBS? lol

However many it takes for a FBS conference to offer them an invite.


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[MR. CHICKEN]

...NORFFERN IOWA @ 4-4 RANKED YES.....FURMAN @ 4-4 NO.....N. IOWA #1 SKED IN FCS.......SEVERAL UH SOGONE IN 50's..+...EVEN WHIFF DUH FBS SEC...HEAVY HITTERS.....IN YER SKEDS.....AWQ!

[Professor Chaos]

I remember having this same discussion with you last year at about this time. Your argument is the same, long winded with a lot of assumptions and "your intuition."
That being said, the CAA and Big Sky appear to be up at this point of the season and the Valley maybe down a little. ISUb and Missouri State are improved while SDSU has a shot at a seed if they don't have a slip up. UNI, ISUr, and WIU are in a battle for their playoff lives. We may only get 3 this year depending how the last 3 weeks shake out.
The Big Sky seems very top heavy to me this year but I don't know if they're truly up top to bottom. UND is technically poaching wins as an independent but beyond them it's going to be tough for anyone outside of the top 4 to get in IMO (UC Davis, EWU, Weber St, and Idaho St). I think the CAA 1-7 or so this year is right on par if not better than the top 7 in the MVFC and I think we'll see that reflected on Selection Sunday when the CAA could get as many as 6 teams into the field.

[semobison]

...NORFFERN IOWA @ 4-4 RANKED YES.....FURMAN @ 4-4 NO.....N. IOWA #1 SKED IN FCS.......SEVERAL UH SOGONE IN 50's..+...EVEN WHIFF DUH FBS SEC...HEAVY HITTERS.....IN YER SKEDS.....AWQ!


More wise words from my fair beaked friend!

[FUGameBreaker]

...NORFFERN IOWA @ 4-4 RANKED YES.....FURMAN @ 4-4 NO.....N. IOWA #1 SKED IN FCS.......SEVERAL UH SOGONE IN 50's..+...EVEN WHIFF DUH FBS SEC...HEAVY HITTERS.....IN YER SKEDS.....AWQ!


Its already been proven that there resumes are essentially dead even, if one is ranked at 4-4 so to should the other xthumbsupx

[semobison]

Its already been proven that there resumes are essentially dead even, if one is ranked at 4-4 so to should the other

No, nothing has been proven. It's been argued. Don't you have a game to worry about this weekend instead of begging for votes in a poll? If you lose, no votes for you!
If I had a nickel for every time you posted UNI's record, I'd have a lot of nickels.

[FUGameBreaker]

No, nothing has been proven. It's been argued. Don't you have a game to worry about this weekend instead of begging for votes in a poll? If you lose, no votes for you!
If I had a nickel for every time you posted UNI's record, I'd have a lot of nickels.


Yes by using Maryville Bison's own metric in fact it has been proven

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume xthumbsupx

[Thumper 76]

Yes by using Maryville Bison's own metric in fact it has been proven

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume xthumbsupx

Except for that fact that’s just a vague random posters thoughts and what the venerable Mr Chicken posted is from Sagarin or Massey, or possibly both.

This whole thread is basically based on SoCon folks not happy that the conference isn’t viewed highly and has devolved into yet another thread of people who are tired of the MVFC being good and try to contrive a way to knock it down. Guess what, the SoCon isn’t great. It is what it is.

As to how we view the depth of the conferences then I do believe the OOC resume outside of the playoffs should be included, no? Considering that the playoffs only considers at maximum the top half of the conferences. I thought the discussion was the total depth of each conference?


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[FUGameBreaker]

Except for that fact that’s just a vague random posters thoughts and what the venerable Mr Chicken posted is from Sagarin or Massey, or possibly both.

This whole thread is basically based on SoCon folks not happy that the conference isn’t viewed highly and has devolved into yet another thread of people who are tired of the MVFC being good and try to contrive a way to knock it down. Guess what, the SoCon isn’t great. It is what it is.

As to how we view the depth of the conferences then I do believe the OOC resume outside of the playoffs should be included, no? Considering that the playoffs only considers at maximum the top half of the conferences. I thought the discussion was the total depth of each conference?


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Actually the rankings beside the teams is the AGS poll rankings which just so happens to be the very poll in question lol
I have shown that without a doubt those resumes are equal, one could even have a case for sure that Furman's 4-4 resume would be better than UNI given the AGS rankings

[Reign of Terrier]

I remember having this same discussion with you last year at about this time. Your argument is the same, long winded with a lot of assumptions and "your intuition."
That being said, the CAA and Big Sky appear to be up at this point of the season and the Valley maybe down a little. ISUb and Missouri State are improved while SDSU has a shot at a seed if they don't have a slip up. UNI, ISUr, and WIU are in a battle for their playoff lives. We may only get 3 this year depending how the last 3 weeks shake out.I'm pretty sure I haven't used the word intuition in this thread. I've presented a pretty strong case, whether or not you want to read or comprehend it is up to you

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Reign of Terrier]

Except for that fact that’s just a vague random posters thoughts and what the venerable Mr Chicken posted is from Sagarin or Massey, or possibly both.

This whole thread is basically based on SoCon folks not happy that the conference isn’t viewed highly and has devolved into yet another thread of people who are tired of the MVFC being good and try to contrive a way to knock it down. Guess what, the SoCon isn’t great. It is what it is.

As to how we view the depth of the conferences then I do believe the OOC resume outside of the playoffs should be included, no? Considering that the playoffs only considers at maximum the top half of the conferences. I thought the discussion was the total depth of each conference?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI have yet to see a new argument proposed by the MVFC fans that hasn't been debunked.

8-8 against the Big Sky, CAA, and Southern.

We're supposed to give you guys a participation trophy for playing NDSU every year.

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[semobison]

I'm pretty sure I haven't used the word intuition in this thread. I've presented a pretty strong case, whether or not you want to read or comprehend it is up to you

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Im know you have that's why I used it. You want to feel better about your conference...win playoff games like Valley teams have!

[semobison]

I'm pretty sure I haven't used the word intuition in this thread. I've presented a pretty strong case, whether or not you want to read or comprehend it is up to you

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

You havnt responded to the MVFC 10 playoff wins on the road, 2 losses at home since 2012. Not much to comprehend there!

[semobison]

Since 2012 these are MVFC teams who have gone on the road and won playoff games.

illinois State
Western Illinois
Indiania State
Youngstown State
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Northern Iowa

[Reign of Terrier]

Since 2012 these are MVFC teams who have gone on the road and won playoff games.

illinois State
Western Illinois
Indiania State
Youngstown State
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Northern IowaWho cares about the venue? Doesn't mean much. You're missing the point and moving the goal post.

One can be .500 in the playoff and still win an away game and not lost a home game.

Just look at Wofford (lol)

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[PaladinFan]

Since 2012 these are MVFC teams who have gone on the road and won playoff games.

illinois State
Western Illinois
Indiania State
Youngstown State
South Dakota State
South Dakota
Northern Iowa

I'm not sure that is indicative of much. Furman, for instance, has two playoff road wins during that time and we haven't particularly been that good.

Realistically, a conference was going to fill the void when GSU and App State moved to the FBS. You take the two dominant programs out of a conference and that conference is going to take a step back. Two of the historically best programs in the FCS left and were "replaced" by two startups and a woefully bad VMI.

You use 2012 as an arbitrary date, but it isn't coincidental that it coincides with GSU and App leaving the FCS.

[TheRevSFA]

13 pages of homerism.

[Reign of Terrier]

13 pages of homerism.Oh yeah, well how about you GO HOMErism

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[TheRevSFA]

Oh yeah, well how about you GO HOMErism

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I'll give you a 6/10 for effort. It wasn't stellar, but you tried.

[uni88]

I'm pretty sure I haven't used the word intuition in this thread. I've presented a pretty strong case, whether or not you want to read or comprehend it is up to you

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

You've presented a strong subjective case. Others have presented strong subjective cases from the opposing perspective. It's a matter of opinion, neither argument is right or wrong.

FTR, I agree that the Big South is better than the NEC, Patriot, etc. but that strength is offset by the reality that the MVFC also frequently plays Big Sky teams in the way rounds and the Sky is significantly better than the Big South.

[semobison]

I'm not sure that is indicative of much. Furman, for instance, has two playoff road wins during that time and we haven't particularly been that good.

Realistically, a conference was going to fill the void when GSU and App State moved to the FBS. You take the two dominant programs out of a conference and that conference is going to take a step back. Two of the historically best programs in the FCS left and were "replaced" by two startups and a woefully bad VMI.

You use 2012 as an arbitrary date, but it isn't coincidental that it coincides with GSU and App leaving the FCS.

In the 2012 playoffs, Illinois State beat #6 App State in Boone and NDSU beat Georgia Southern in Fargo in the semi's. It was the last time a SoCon team made the Semi's. It's recent history. Five of the Valley's road wins have been against seeded teams,
I didn't start this argument. If the Valley was over rated through the recent years they would have a bunch of home playoff losses.. Illinois State has the only 2. I'm sorry the SoCon is not what they used to be! I have said I would think about ranking Furman if they won this week. I have said the Valley may be down this year.
This MVFC bias talk is BS. A weak attempt to try to feel better about your conference!

[semobison]

Who cares about the venue? Doesn't mean much. You're missing the point and moving the goal post.

One can be .500 in the playoff and still win an away game and not lost a home game.

Just look at Wofford (lol)

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Your not a Lawyer by any chance? ...5 wins at seeded teams in 6 years!

[Bisonator]

Since one 4-4 team is ranked 24th every 4-4 team should be ranked.xrolleyesx

[Mayville Bison]

Who cares about the venue? Doesn't mean much. You're missing the point and moving the goal post.

One can be .500 in the playoff and still win an away game and not lost a home game.

Just look at Wofford (lol)

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Speaking of moving the goal post, I'm still waiting for "often get blown out" to be factually proven....

[semobison]

Since one 4-4 team is ranked 24th every 4-4 team should be ranked.xrolleyesx

Yep, Misery State and ISUb fans should be pissed!

[FUGameBreaker]

Since one 4-4 team is ranked 24th every 4-4 team should be ranked.xrolleyesx


You can be coy, but UNI and Furman would have dead on resumes, that's the point

[FUGameBreaker]

Furman expected to get starting QB Harris Roberts back this Saturday, that's huge xthumbsupx

[Sycamore62]

You can be coy, but UNI and Furman would have dead on resumes, that's the point

Id rather play Furman than UNI...again.

this should end the discussion

[FUGameBreaker]

Id rather play Furman than UNI...again.

this should end the discussion



Lol, nope


On another note, nice job by you guys being very competitive this year after last years 0-11 run, very good turnaround xthumbsupx

[Sycamore62]

Lol, nope


On another note, nice job by you guys being very competitive this year after last years 0-11 run, very good turnaround xthumbsupx

thanks. Unfortunately we are 2 receptions from being 6-2. us catching a drop and MSU dropping a catch

I always look at this as to which teams could move into another conference and where would they finish.

[Bisonator]

You can be coy, but UNI and Furman would have dead on resumes, that's the point
Whoopdy ****ing dooo so you could have been ranked 24th or 25th.

[FUGameBreaker]

thanks. Unfortunately we are 2 receptions from being 6-2. us catching a drop and MSU dropping a catch

I always look at this as to which teams could move into another conference and where would they finish.




Thats impossible to know though, ie. there are a lot of option teams in the SoCon, who knows for sure just how any other team would be prepared to handle that if just thrown into the SoCon from another league. And so on and so forth for every conference. However if the same metric is being used to rank teams across the country in the AGS poll then the rankings can be used as a barometer of schedule strength and resume strength which is what I have used to show UNI and Furman are equal, their marquee win, their regular wins and their losses match up as equals.

- - - Updated - - -


Whoopdy ****ing dooo so you could have been ranked 24th or 25th.



xthumbsupx
Well yeah, but UTC first then........

[semobison]

Furman expected to get starting QB Harris Roberts back this Saturday, that's huge xthumbsupx

Good luck this week. If you beat Ags #30 Chatty and UNI beats #15 ISUr, UNI moves up and you...maybe get some votes. I will not vote for UNI if they lose but I will also have my eye on ISUb and Misery State if they win. Not saying I will vote for either but their resume will be similar to that of Furman who I will also consider If Furman loses...well, welcome to crapsville!

[FUGameBreaker]

Good luck this week. If you beat Ags #30 Chatty and UNI beats #15 ISUr, UNI moves up and you...maybe get some votes. I will not vote for UNI if they lose but I will also have my eye on ISUb and Misery State if they win. Not saying I will vote for either but their resume will be similar to that of Furman who I will also consider If Furman loses...well, welcome to crapsville!



Sounds like sour grapes lol, Ive just been trying to make a concise case for my team. Anyways you lose all credibility when you start talking about someone like Indiana St. as having similar resume, lets see:
Indiana St. (4-4)
A lower division win vs. Quincy
2-7 EIU win
2-6 SIU win
3-5 YSU win

Thanks for playing but not close xthumbsupx

[TheRevSFA]

You can be coy, but UNI and Furman would have dead on resumes, that's the point

No...they wouldn't, and when we got to the end of the year they wouldn't, and that has to do with conference toughness. Furman lost to some weak teams and pulled a trap game on Wofford. Furman isn't a top 25 team, and UNI barely is...just barely.

If you beat Chatty then maybe you'll get some votes.

[Reign of Terrier]

No...they wouldn't, and when we got to the end of the year they wouldn't, and that has to do with conference toughness. Furman lost to some weak teams and pulled a trap game on Wofford. Furman isn't a top 25 team, and UNI barely is...just barely.

If you beat Chatty then maybe you'll get some votes.

To be fair, Furman hasn't lost to any weak teams (yet), they just only really showed up to the Wofford game. And the trap game argument seems about right (Furman had a bye, Wofford came off a good win against UTC and may have been looking ahead to ETSU the next week)

[Sycamore62]

Sounds like sour grapes lol, Ive just been trying to make a concise case for my team. Anyways you lose all credibility when you start talking about someone like Indiana St. as having similar resume, lets see:
Indiana St. (4-4)
A lower division win vs. Quincy
2-7 EIU win
2-6 SIU win
3-5 YSU win

Thanks for playing but not close xthumbsupx

wrong

vs SDSU, ISUb had the ball on the 7yd line with no timeouts and :25 left and ran 1 play because the coaches choked on clocking the ball, kicked a FG and lost in OT.

vs MSU, MSU drove and scored a td to win on 4th and goal from the 3 with :16 left on a (what I call questionable as a homer) a fade or out pattern.

Compare that to, lets be honest, I dont know anything about who you're talking about.

[FUGameBreaker]

No...they wouldn't, and when we got to the end of the year they wouldn't, and that has to do with conference toughness. Furman lost to some weak teams and pulled a trap game on Wofford. Furman isn't a top 25 team, and UNI barely is...just barely.

If you beat Chatty then maybe you'll get some votes.


Yes they are dead equal as has been laid out

That's just absurd to say Furman caught Wofford in trap game and won by 20 lol, lets just say UNI caught SDSU in a trap game and won by 15, so still even xthumbsupx

Going by the very AGS poll in question the only weak team Furman lost to was Samford, UNI has lost to 2 weak teams in Montana and WIU by 20, advantage Furman


BOOM!

[TheRevSFA]

To be fair, Furman hasn't lost to any weak teams (yet), they just only really showed up to the Wofford game. And the trap game argument seems about right (Furman had a bye, Wofford came off a good win against UTC and may have been looking ahead to ETSU the next week)

That's fair...we can change it to "middle of the road"

[FUGameBreaker]

To be fair, Furman hasn't lost to any weak teams (yet), they just only really showed up to the Wofford game. And the trap game argument seems about right (Furman had a bye, Wofford came off a good win against UTC and may have been looking ahead to ETSU the next week)



Bro, don't you want Furman to be the arch-rival? And now your telling me Wofford was looking past them at ETSU :D

[FUGameBreaker]

wrong

vs SDSU, ISUb had the ball on the 7yd line with no timeouts and :25 left and ran 1 play because the coaches choked on clocking the ball, kicked a FG and lost in OT.

vs MSU, MSU drove and scored a td to win on 4th and goal from the 3 with :16 left on a (what I call questionable as a homer) a fade or out pattern.

Compare that to, lets be honest, I dont know anything about who you're talking about.



Where was I wrong, I was pointing out your wins, if we want to say things about losses I can think of more as well, leading @ETSU who is ranked #25 right now 27-6 in the 3rd quarter and blowing it, losing starting QB to Samford and blowing 19-10 3rd quarter lead when we were about to score again, but that stuff does not mean much at the end of the day

[Reign of Terrier]

Bro, don't you want Furman to be the arch-rival? And now your telling me Wofford was looking past them at ETSU :D

I'm telling you based on what I observed from the team before the game that we weren't taking it seriously enough. The fact that we've won all of our other FCS games, sans the Citadel on opening day by double digits (when last year we only one like 2 games by double digits), while Furman won by their largest margin of the season should be a yuge indicator of that.

And I think Furman is good, just inconsistent and lacking the depth they need to consistently meet their potential. But they caught us in a trap game and were at full strength for perhaps the only game of the year.

[semobison]

Yes they are dead equal as has been laid out

That's just absurd to say Furman caught Wofford in trap game and won by 20 lol, lets just say UNI caught SDSU in a trap game and won by 15, so still even xthumbsupx

Going by the very AGS poll in question the only weak team Furman lost to was Samford, UNI has lost to 2 weak teams in Montana and WIU by 20, advantage Furman


BOOM!

You aren't too smart calling WIU a week team! They have their toughest games in the Valley behind them. If they win out, they are in the playoffs and it wouldn't surprise me.

[Sycamore62]

Where was I wrong, I was pointing out your wins, if we want to say things about losses I can think of more as well, leading @ETSU who is ranked #25 right now 27-6 in the 3rd quarter and blowing it, losing starting QB to Samford and blowing 19-10 3rd quarter lead when we were about to score again, but that stuff does not mean much at the end of the day

at the end of the day people are voting who they think is better.

[TheRevSFA]

Yes they are dead equal as has been laid out

That's just absurd to say Furman caught Wofford in trap game and won by 20 lol, lets just say UNI caught SDSU in a trap game and won by 15, so still even xthumbsupx

Going by the very AGS poll in question the only weak team Furman lost to was Samford, UNI has lost to 2 weak teams in Montana and WIU by 20, advantage Furman


BOOM!

Alright. I'm just going to take this little homer thread of yours, and put it in my pocket, and we can address once you win or lose this weekend.

And yes, Furman was a classic trap. You came off of bye, while Wofford had just beat Chatty and were looking ahead after you (because you guys suck usually)

Sorry Champ. Good luck this weekend

[Sycamore62]

You aren't too smart calling WIU a week team! They have their toughest games in the Valley behind them. If they win out, they are in the playoffs and it wouldn't surprise me.

although I dont think we can beat ISUr at home, We could potentially play them with both of us being 6-4. our problem is that every win we get makes every win look worse.

[FUGameBreaker]

I'm telling you based on what I observed from the team before the game that we weren't taking it seriously enough. The fact that we've won all of our other FCS games, sans the Citadel on opening day by double digits (when last year we only one like 2 games by double digits), while Furman won by their largest margin of the season should be a yuge indicator of that.

And I think Furman is good, just inconsistent and lacking the depth they need to consistently meet their potential. But they caught us in a trap game and were at full strength for perhaps the only game of the year.



Yes Furman depth, ie. massively at QB for sure

[FUGameBreaker]

You aren't too smart calling WIU a week team! They have their toughest games in the Valley behind them. If they win out, they are in the playoffs and it wouldn't surprise me.

Going by the AGS poll
They are 4-4 and outside the top 25 just like Samford

[FUGameBreaker]

at the end of the day people are voting who they think is better.



That's my point, even with the virtually dead even resume the valley crowd will still swing UNI xthumbsupx

[FUGameBreaker]

Alright. I'm just going to take this little homer thread of yours, and put it in my pocket, and we can address once you win or lose this weekend.

And yes, Furman was a classic trap. You came off of bye, while Wofford had just beat Chatty and were looking ahead after you (because you guys suck usually)

Sorry Champ. Good luck this weekend


We played them in round 2 of the playoffs last year
Yeah, just like UNI got SDSU in a classic trap looking ahead to Ill. St., so still even

[Professor Chaos]

That's my point, even with the virtually dead even resume the valley crowd will still swing UNI xthumbsupx
I hope you're not superstitious because you're building an incredible amount of bad juju in this thread for Furman.

[Sycamore62]

That's my point, even with the virtually dead even resume the valley crowd will still swing UNI xthumbsupx

i guess i did miss your point

Would you be happier if there were an option that allowed for everyone to pick "cant decide" and there would be a blank at 25?

I mean, ive seen UNI and I would rank them above any other team based on what I think their potential is. I also expected them to come back the entire game last week and was surprised when they didnt.

[Sycamore62]

I also dont believe in any looking forward to a team crap. Its more likely that someone was looking forward to what they were doing when they got out of the locker room

[FUGameBreaker]

I hope you're not superstitious because you're building an incredible amount of bad juju in this thread for Furman.



You've got a point lol, but I think Id rather be talking about my team in a positive light and hoping for things to work out then just expecting us to crumble, we only get several months a year to be hyped about football, might as well milk them while I can xthumbsupx

[Reign of Terrier]

I hope you're not superstitious because you're building an incredible amount of bad juju in this thread for Furman.

I think they may win this week.

And lose to VMI.

[FUGameBreaker]

I think they may win this week.

And lose to VMI.


That's ok, I am not planning on doing a VMI thread lol

[Thumper 76]

Who cares about the venue? Doesn't mean much. You're missing the point and moving the goal post.

One can be .500 in the playoff and still win an away game and not lost a home game.

Just look at Wofford (lol)

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Wait. So home field advantage doesn’t count , road wins in the playoffs don’t mean more than wins at home, but it’s the biggest deal in the world that ndsu has all their playoff games at home, which is obviously the mediocre MVFCs fault?

https://media.giphy.com/media/BmmfETghGOPrW/giphy.gif


Yes they are dead equal as has been laid out

That's just absurd to say Furman caught Wofford in trap game and won by 20 lol, lets just say UNI caught SDSU in a trap game and won by 15, so still even xthumbsupx

Going by the very AGS poll in question the only weak team Furman lost to was Samford, UNI has lost to 2 weak teams in Montana and WIU by 20, advantage Furman


BOOM!
Just to provide some background, UNI got the “15 point” win due to a pick 6 with under a minute to play in the game. That realistically was a one score game that SDSU out gained UNI, tied TOP, and had the defense hold UNI to the least amount of points that any team not in the B1G had up to that point in the season. UNI held SDSU to field goals and that was the real difference in that game.

Also, the Buffalo Bills dump trucked the Minnesota Vikings at home. Do you honestly think that wasn’t a trap game/outlier result because they won by a bunch? A team can win the trap game going away and still have it be a trap game.


That's my point, even with the virtually dead even resume the valley crowd will still swing UNI xthumbsupx

I’m pretty sure it’s posted damn near every year by ursus but it’s proven that voters from a conference tend to be harder on teams from their own conference as well as their own conference. Just saying.


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[MR. CHICKEN]

That's my point, even with the virtually dead even resume the valley crowd will still swing UNI xthumbsupx



.....AGIN'......NOT UH DEAD EVEN RESUME.....STRENGTH UH SKED.......COLGATE NOT CHICKEN TA PLAY....WEATHER........FURMAN WAS IN LOSER SPIRAL FIRST 3 GAMES ACTUALAH PLAYED......AS HINDSIGHT IS 20/20...WE NOW KNOW RAIDER DEFENSE IS FO' REAL.....& NO REASON TA BELIEVE OTHERWISE....HAD YA'S TEED UP.........WESTERN CAROLINA 1-5 IN SOGONE.....PALADIN...6 POINT WIN....&....... W.CAROLINA'S....ONE WIN....BAH 2 POINTS.....OVERAH VMI.....NOT JES' DUH VALLEY CROWD.........BUT ANY REASONABLE FCS FAN.......MAH LAST WORD ON DIS MIS-GUIDED MATTER.........BRAWK!

[grayghost06]

It seems every year lately, we have this discussion. A .500 UNI teams' worthiness to be ranked or a 6-5 UNI's chances of making the playoffs. They have a really good program and play a brutal schedule. I know how they feel. JMU had a 6-5 team one year that could have beaten half the teams in the playoffs. At some point though, you gotta put up the wins.

[FUGameBreaker]

.....AGIN'......NOT UH DEAD EVEN RESUME.....STRENGTH UH SKED.......COLGATE NOT CHICKEN TA PLAY....WEATHER........FURMAN WAS IN LOSER SPIRAL FIRST 3 GAMES ACTUALAH PLAYED......AS HINDSIGHT IS 20/20...WE NOW KNOW RAIDER DEFENSE IS FO' REAL.....& NO REASON TA BELIEVE OTHERWISE....HAD YA'S TEED UP.........WESTERN CAROLINA 1-5 IN SOGONE.....PALADIN...6 POINT WIN....&....... W.CAROLINA'S....ONE WIN....BAH 2 POINTS.....OVERAH VMI.....NOT JES' DUH VALLEY CROWD.........BUT ANY REASONABLE FCS FAN.......MAH LAST WORD ON DIS MIS-GUIDED MATTER.........BRAWK!



Yes dead even resume mate already been proven based on the AGS poll, which is the poll in question, and Colgate was the one that backed out, game could have been played xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

Furman dodged a bullet by not having to play Colgate.

Trying to compare Furman and UNI is laughable.

[Thumper 76]

It seems every year lately, we have this discussion. A .500 UNI teams' worthiness to be ranked or a 6-5 UNI's chances of making the playoffs. They have a really good program and play a brutal schedule. I know how they feel. JMU had a 6-5 team one year that could have beaten half the teams in the playoffs. At some point though, you gotta put up the wins.

Yup. It’s a yearly thing for them now. Moral of the story is if they get to 7 wins they’re probably in especially if SDSU wins out. They don’t and they aren’t. I think people assuming that Furman wouldn’t have just won, but would have whooped Colgate is laughably homeristic. I don’t think for sure that SDSU would whoop Colgate but I’m pretty sure they would handle Furman pretty well.


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[Thumper 76]

Yes dead even resume mate already been proven based on the AGS poll, which is the poll in question, and Colgate was the one that backed out, game could have been played xthumbsupx

Well if that’s “proven” because AGS poll then I guess it’s proven that Colgate would have won going away against Furman xcoffeex


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[FUGameBreaker]

Furman dodged a bullet by not having to play Colgate.

Trying to compare Furman and UNI is laughable.


That's just inaccurate, they have an equal resume, one could even make a strong case that Furman's resume would be stronger at 4-4 than UNI based on the AGS poll

So not "Trying" to compare, its already been proven

[TheRevSFA]

That's just moronic, they have an equal resume, one could even make a strong case that Furman's resume would be stronger at 4-4 than UNI based on the AGS poll

So not "Trying" to compare, its already been proven

Yeah..that "one" is you.

[FUGameBreaker]

Again for those of you that have not read the entire thread:

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume, if anything Furman's resume at 4-4 is actually a bit better based on the AGS poll, which is the poll in question xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

Again for those of you that have not read the entire thread:

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume, if anything Furman's resume at 4-4 is actually a bit better xthumbsupx

Have you seen UNI ever play football?

[FUGameBreaker]

Have you seen UNI ever play football?


Of course xthumbsupx


Have you seen the Dins at full strength

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq9zDMOMcKs

[Reign of Terrier]

I think Furman is better than most people think but at the same time does not have the credibility of UNI.

[FUGameBreaker]

I think Furman is better than most people think but at the same time does not have the credibility of UNI.



Despite having an even 4-4 resume after this Saturday with a win

[JSUSoutherner]

Of course xthumbsupx


Have you seen the Dins at full strength

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq9zDMOMcKs

At full strength could Furman give NDSU a game?

[FUGameBreaker]

At full strength could Furman give NDSU a game?


At home in Greenville for 3 quarters before losing by 25, i would not put it past them lol

[FUGameBreaker]

Geeez 3-4 WIU was up 37-10 vs. UNI this past Saturday, I knew it was bad but dang

[JSUSoutherner]

Furman or SEMO?

[Reign of Terrier]

I'm actually impressed by the Furman enthusiasm proportional to their proven success on the field of the last decade.

[FUGameBreaker]

Furman or SEMO?


What's the question

- - - Updated - - -


I'm actually impressed by the Furman enthusiasm proportional to their proven success on the field of the last decade.


The full on comeback is going to happen one of these days, its gotta

[JSUSoutherner]

What's the question

- - - Updated - - -




The full on comeback is going to happen one of these days, its gotta

Who is better? Furman or SEMO. Its simple

[FUGameBreaker]

Who is better? Furman or SEMO. Its simple


I would take the home team, and the better question would be do I think SEMO should be ranked based on their resume and YES I would say they should be

[JSUSoutherner]

I would take the home team, and the better question would be do I think SEMO should be ranked based on their resume and YES I would say they should be

I think we're done here.

[FUGameBreaker]

I think we're done here.


Lol please

[FUGameBreaker]

So Vegas has Furman as 4 point favorite vs. UTC this Saturday, hope they are genius on this one xthumbsupx

[TheKingpin28]

This thread is still going?

[Sycamore62]

So Vegas has Furman as 4 point favorite vs. UTC this Saturday, hope they are genius on this one xthumbsupx

ISUb 7-1 vs Vegas. The only game they have been favored before friday of game week was our D2 win and we have 3 wins in games we were getting points. vegas reacts to a lot of people who dont know what they are doing.

- - - Updated - - -


This thread is still going?

no

well

maybe

[Derby City Duke]

I would take the home team, and the better question would be do I think SEMO should be ranked based on their resume and YES I would say they should be

I watched SEMO play this year -- they couldn't even beat a poor Eastern Kentucky squad. QB threw 5 INTs, 4 of which the defender merely had to catch the ball; didn't have to make any kind of dramatic play. I really thought JSU would boatrace both squads - awfully surprised that SEMO beat the Gamecocks. SEMO shouldn't be ranked at this point.

[TheRevSFA]

Again for those of you that have not read the entire thread:

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up


That's a dead tie on resume, if anything Furman's resume at 4-4 is actually a bit better based on the AGS poll, which is the poll in question xthumbsupx


Based, of course, on your opinion.

[Thumper 76]

Based, of course, on your opinion.

NO HE PROVED IT DONT YOU SEE THE SCIENCE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. ITS INARGUABLE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

Based, of course, on your opinion.



If your argument to distinguish a difference for UNI is a 25 point loss at home in conference then I feel good about where I stand without a doubt

- - - Updated - - -


I watched SEMO play this year -- they couldn't even beat a poor Eastern Kentucky squad. QB threw 5 INTs, 4 of which the defender merely had to catch the ball; didn't have to make any kind of dramatic play. I really thought JSU would boatrace both squads - awfully surprised that SEMO beat the Gamecocks. SEMO shouldn't be ranked at this point.



And yet JSU is 18th with 563 points

[JSUSoutherner]

I watched SEMO play this year -- they couldn't even beat a poor Eastern Kentucky squad. QB threw 5 INTs, 4 of which the defender merely had to catch the ball; didn't have to make any kind of dramatic play. I really thought JSU would boatrace both squads - awfully surprised that SEMO beat the Gamecocks. SEMO shouldn't be ranked at this point.
Hard to win when you turn the ball over 5 times.

But hey, if the Furman fan wants to cheer on his would-be 3rd place OVC team don't stand in the way of his dreams.

[FUGameBreaker]

Hard to win when you turn the ball over 5 times.

But hey, if the Furman fan wants to cheer on his would-be 3rd place OVC team don't stand in the way of his dreams.



You are the one that brought up SEMO xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

You are the one that brought up SEMO xthumbsupx

Well based on your "AGS poll is the word of God" logic SEMO is clearly the better team.

You said you think they're fairly level after stating you think Furman could hang with NDSU.

By extension you're also asserting you think SEMO could hang with NDSU which is total bull****.

So you're either crazy, delusional, or all three.

[FUGameBreaker]

Well based on your "AGS poll is the word of God" logic SEMO is clearly the better team.

You said you think they're fairly level after stating you think Furman could hang with NDSU.

By extension you're also asserting you think SEMO could hang with NDSU which is total bull****.

So you're either crazy, delusional, or all three.


I said I could quite possibly see Furman do as good as losing by 25 at home to NDSU with our starting QB healthy, which is what UNI did

Bottom line that point does not even matter so I don't see why we are discussing that, we will never know, all we can do is go by the resumes which are even according to the AGS poll in question, not making up some what if matchups that are not going to take place and just assuming

[JSUSoutherner]

I said I could quite possibly see Furman do as good as losing by 25 at home to NDSU with our starting QB healthy, which is what UNI did

Bottom line that point does not even matter so I don't see why we are discussing that, we will never know, all we can do is go by the resumes which are even according to the AGS poll in question, not making up some what if matchups that are not going to take place and just assuming

UNI was ranked because they're better than Furman. Bottom line.

[FUGameBreaker]

UNI was ranked because they're better than Furman. Bottom line.


That's brilliant xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

That's brilliant xthumbsupx

I mean if you understood that this thread wouldn't exist.

[FUGameBreaker]

I mean if you understood that this thread wouldn't exist.



I understand how even they are without a doubt

[semobison]

I understand how even they are without a doubt

Damn, I went out, played 18 holes of golf, then got a little work done, come home and your still regurgitating the same old **** that you were this morning. Don't you have a job or something to go to? It's all your opinion, and that's ok but there is a reason that people rank UNI. They think they are pretty good and that's the only thing that's been proven in this..... stupid thread!

[Reign of Terrier]

I understand how even they are without a doubthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181101/8fe227af7a3b69c2aeeb91667dbece3f.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[JSUSoutherner]

Damn, I went out, played 18 holes of golf, then got a little work done, come home and your still regurgitating the same old **** that you were this morning. Don't you have a job or something to go to? It's all your opinion, and that's ok but there is a reason that people rank UNI. They think they are pretty good and that's the only thing that's been proven in this..... stupid thread!

Sporting clays > Golf

[FUGameBreaker]

Damn, I went out, played 18 holes of golf, then got a little work done, come home and your still regurgitating the same old **** that you were this morning. Don't you have a job or something to go to? It's all your opinion, and that's ok but there is a reason that people rank UNI. They think they are pretty good and that's the only thing that's been proven in this..... stupid thread!



The only thing proven is that based on the AGS poll, any reasonable person would say their resumes are even with an FU win Saturday

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up



There has been no strong point made whatsoever that show's the UNI resume has any advantage over Furman, its actually very easy to see how even the resumes will be with an FU win this Saturday when both resumes are laid out

[TheKingpin28]

Sporting clays > Golf

Clearly you have never gone golfing with POD and BF02. xcoffeex

[Catbooster]

The only thing proven is that based on the AGS poll, any reasonable person would say their resumes are even with an FU win Saturday

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up



There has been no strong point made whatsoever that show's the UNI resume has any advantage over Furman, its actually very easy to see how even the resumes will be with an FU win this Saturday when both resumes are laid out
NDSU is down? Great news, I've been waiting to hear that for a few years. xthumbsupx

I've read the whole thread, but that's been over several days...what do you mean by up, down, flat, etc?

So you are using the AGS poll rankings of opponents as the authority to show that the AGS poll rankings are wrong for UNI and Furman? xrotatehx Did I get that right?

[semobison]

The only thing proven is that based on the AGS poll, any reasonable person would say their resumes are even with an FU win Saturday

UNI:
Montana - down
FBS Iowa - flat
Hampton - slight up
Indiana St. - slight up
USD - slight up
#29 WIU - down
#1 NDSU - down
#7 SD St. - up

Furman:
#25 ETSU - down
FBS Clemson - flat
WCU - slight up
Citadel - slight up
#30 UTC - slight up
#34 Samford - down
#8 Elon - down
#9 Wofford - up



There has been no strong point made whatsoever that show's the UNI resume has any advantage over Furman, its actually very easy to see how even the resumes will be with an FU win this Saturday when both resumes are laid out

Who made up this ****? #1 NDSU- down?
The Total yardage in the NDSU-UNI game was 523-466, much closer than the final score indicated. The Bison got two scores in the last 3 minutes when UNI went for it on 4th down deep in their own territory twice. If they would have been playing to keep it respectable, they would have punted. They played to win the game so they lost by 25 instead of 11.
I didn't drop them in the poll that week because the last two scores had no effect on my perception of the game. It's not always wins and losses or margin of defeat. It's how you win or lose.
I don't think Furman or most any other team in the country puts up 466 yards on the Bison defense.
Thats one of the reasons UNI is ranked.

[FUGameBreaker]

NDSU is down? Great news, I've been waiting to hear that for a few years. xthumbsupx

I've read the whole thread, but that's been over several days...what do you mean by up, down, flat, etc?

So you are using the AGS poll rankings of opponents as the authority to show that the AGS poll rankings are wrong for UNI and Furman? xrotatehx Did I get that right?



Not NDSU down, this stuff is expalined in the thread, it means 25 point home loss down for UNI, same as Furman road loss at Elon is down, ect. ect.

And yes if you guys want to defend UNI saying their resume is better then I am going to use the very own AGS poll to show where the teams each of them has played stand in the eyes of the AGS voters. Makes perfect sense and with that on my side this is an argument I can not lose, as it proves how even they both are.

[FUGameBreaker]

Who made up this ****? #1 NDSU- down?
The Total yardage in the NDSU-UNI game was 523-466, much closer than the final score indicated. The Bison got two scores in the last 3 minutes when UNI went for it on 4th down deep in their own territory twice. If they would have been playing to keep it respectable, they would have punted. They played to win the game so they lost by 25 instead of 11.
I didn't drop them in the poll that week because the last two scores had no effect on my perception of the game. It's not always wins and losses or margin of defeat. It's how you win or lose.
I don't think Furman or most any other team in the country puts up 466 yards on the Bison defense.
Thats one of the reasons UNI is ranked.



And that's all you guys have been able to say, stuff like I don't think team x could do this or I just think team x is better than team y just because their better lol

You just gotta line up the resumes based on the AGS poll and its easy to see how even they are, simple, its the whole reason I felt motivated to make this thread

[semobison]

Not NDSU down, this stuff is expalined in the thread, it means 25 point home loss down for UNI, same as Furman road loss at Elon is down, ect. ect.

And yes if you guys want to defend UNI saying their resume is better then I am going to use the very own AGS poll to show where the teams each of them has played stand in the eyes of the AGS voters. Makes perfect sense and with that on my side this is an argument I can not lose, as it proves how even they both are.

You have lost already. Your credibility!

[FUGameBreaker]

You have lost already. Your credibility!



Lol not hardly

[JSUSoutherner]

I guess ignorance really is bliss.

[FUGameBreaker]

Still waiting for someone to prove to me why the UNI resume is better, guess what its not possible, they are even resumes at 4-4 based on the AGS poll

[FUGameBreaker]

To sum up:
Basically the defense of most on here is to say well I just think UNI is better lol


What exactly is it on the UNI 8 game resume that makes them better guys?

[Reign of Terrier]

Where's FUGamebreaker? All I see is this giant hole so deep I cannot see the bottom

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

Where's FUGamebreaker? All I see is this giant hole so deep I cannot see the bottom

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


It looks like your feelings are hurt now that I brought up that whooping you guys took in Gville this year, and you tried to say you were overlooking us to ETSU lol, nice try

- - - Updated - - -

Again I state: What exactly is it on the UNI 8 game resume that makes them better?

[JSUSoutherner]

Where's FUGamebreaker? All I see is this giant hole so deep I cannot see the bottom

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

He's at the bottom of the hole. Legend has it he's still digging.

[FUGameBreaker]

He's at the bottom of the hole. Legend has it he's still digging.



Obvious signs that show an argument has been lost by other party - When other party starts resorting to asinine comments like the past few pages directed at me

xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

Obvious signs that show an argument has been lost by other party - When other party starts resorting to asinine comments like the past few pages directed at me

xthumbsupx

Multiple people have presented points. You ignored them. No one is going to waste their breath repeating the same thing to you.

[FUGameBreaker]

Multiple people have presented points. You ignored them. No one is going to waste their breath repeating the same thing to you.



That's BS, nobody has presented a point as to what specifically makes UNI's 8 game resume better than what Furman's would be with a win Saturday, and you have done nothing but make belittling comments since you came on this thread

[FUGameBreaker]

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up



Where is UNI's advantage?

[TheKingpin28]

Still waiting for someone to prove to me why the UNI resume is better, guess what its not possible, they are even resumes at 4-4 based on the AGS poll

I had neither ranked to preface this, but if you put down the purple glasses for 5 seconds, I would have to believe a rational viewer would assess that UNI is better. I'm not going through 23 pages to see if this has been posted, but here you go.




Team
UNI
Furman


Record
4-4
3-4


SOS
1
13


Massey
11
33


Massey O
16
33


Massey D
7
36


Sagarin
86
146


AGS T25
2-1
1-1


Conference Record
3-2
3-2


Good Wins
#2 SDSU (SOS:5, M:4, S:68)
#6 Wofford (SOS:54, M:20, S:127)


Opponents Collective Record
38-24 (61.3%)
35-20 (63.6%)


Pts For
228
172


Pts Against
194
229


Total Net
+34
-57


Total Offense
83
16


Total Defense
51
9


Conference Rank
1
5


Final Standings
12-3-1
3-12-1




If we are being completely objective, there is no reason for UNI to NOT be ahead of Furman. Missing that Colgate will bite them in the ass. I'm not say the gap is as big as some might say, but they are clearly, at this point in the season, the better team.

[FUGameBreaker]

I had neither ranked to preface this, but if you put down the purple glasses for 5 seconds, I would have to believe a rational viewer would assess that UNI is better. I'm not going through 23 pages to see if this has been posted, but here you go.




Team
UNI
Furman


Record
4-4
3-4


SOS
1
13


Massey
11
33


Massey O
16
33


Massey D
7
36


Sagarin
86
146


AGS T25
2-1
1-1


Conference Record
3-2
3-2


Good Wins
#2 SDSU (SOS:5, M:4, S:68)
#6 Wofford (SOS:54, M:20, S:127)


Opponents Collective Record
38-24 (61.3%)
35-20 (63.6%)


Pts For
228
172


Pts Against
194
229


Total Net
+34
-57


Total Offense
83
16


Total Defense
51
9


Conference Rank
1
5


Final Standings
12-3-1
3-12-1




If we are being completely objective, there is no reason for UNI to NOT be ahead of Furman. Missing that Colgate will bite them in the ass. I'm not say the gap is as big as some might say, but they are clearly, at this point in the season, the better team.




Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up


???

[TheKingpin28]

Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up


???You are not comparing them equally week by week. No one in their right mind believes, at this point, furman at 3-4 is better. Again, I didn't vote for either team.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

You are not comparing them equally week by week. No one in their right mind believes, at this point, furman at 3-4 is better. Again, I didn't vote for either team.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk



Yes I am comparing the 'totality' of each teams first 8 games (assuming FU win vs. UTC) They are even based on the AGS rankings, to say they are not is just not being honest

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways, lets just agree to disagree and see what happens Saturday before we all waste any more hot air (typing) on it lol, cheers xthumbsupx

[JSUSoutherner]

You are not comparing them equally week by week. No one in their right mind believes, at this point, furman at 3-4 is better. Again, I didn't vote for either team.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

I think it's hilarious he uses the poll he thinks is flawed as evidence to show why his team should be in said poll.

[Reign of Terrier]

I gotta give props to FU, he's going all in here

Wouldn't blame him if Furman loses if he just peaced out until next year.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[FUGameBreaker]

I think it's hilarious he uses the poll he thinks is flawed as evidence to show why his team should be in said poll.


Using the Poll that AGS people create is the best way for me to make my point, since you guys created it you can't write off the rankings that I post for the teams xthumbsupx
I think its hilarious you think its hilarious lol

[FUGameBreaker]

I gotta give props to FU, he's going all in here

Wouldn't blame him if Furman loses if he just peaced out until next year.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk



Never guaranteed a win vs. UTC in any of these pages bro

[FUGameBreaker]

Feel free to add anymore thoughts to this thread if anyone feels so inclined, or not if you think its dumb lol, Ill be back on Saturday win or lose and own up to whatever is coming my way you have my word xthumbsupx


Cheers!

[semobison]

Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up


???

I brought this up before, you ignored it. Furman's loss to Elon is down, you are correct. UNI's loss to NDSU is flat. That's where your wrong.
UNI lost by less to a better team. UNI was in the game until late 4th qtr. Furman trailed by 38 in the 3rd qtr. Furman had almost 200 yards less total offense. UNI had less than 60 yards less total offense. Bottom line, one was a competitive game against a better team. Furman was blown out by an inferior team.
Result- advantage UNI!

Good night!

[JSUSoutherner]

I gotta give props to FU, he's going all in here

Wouldn't blame him if Furman loses if he just peaced out until next year.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I don't know what he's even whining about. We could rank Furman #1 in the AGS poll they would still watch the playoffs from a couch.

[PaladinFan]

I don't know what he's even whining about. We could rank Furman #1 in the AGS poll they would still watch the playoffs from a couch.

I’m still not convinced on that. Furman had to deal with a cancelled game, which is unfortuante. Best we can do is 6-4.

It’s a long shot, I think, for an at large bid. Still, Furman will have a three touchdown win over a current top 10 team and a win over a good UTC team. One miserable quarter against ETSU probably bites us, but I think Furman will have as strong of a resume as most other 4 loss teams (7-4 clubs).

Again, not our fault Colgate pulled the plug on the game. A 7-4 Furman team with a win over Colgate almost assuredly gets in.

[FUBeAR]

I’m still not convinced on that. Furman had to deal with a cancelled game, which is unfortuante. Best we can do is 6-4.

It’s a long shot, I think, for an at large bid. Still, Furman will have a three touchdown win over a current top 10 team and a win over a good UTC team. One miserable quarter against ETSU probably bites us, but I think Furman will have as strong of a resume as most other 4 loss teams (7-4 clubs).

Again, not our fault Colgate pulled the plug on the game. A 7-4 Furman team with a win over Colgate almost assuredly gets in.I’ve been staying out of this mostly, but the way you worded part of that helped me solidify how I think the committee will consider Furman.

IF Furman can finish 6-4, I don’t think they will think of FU as a “6 win Team.”

Instead, I think the ‘Dins will be viewed as a “4 loss Team.”

* They will be assessed against other 4 loss Teams.
* They won’t get the benefit of an “imaginary” win over highly-ranked Colgate, despite prior & recent outcomes that might point to that.
* Conversely, they won’t be ‘penalized’ for ‘only’ having 6 wins.
* The wins they do have will be credited - the GREAT one over Wofford, the (IF) good one over Chatt...and the other 4 less remarkable ones (WCU, CIT, VMI (IF), Mercer (IF))
* The Clemson loss, like the non-win over Colgate, will not be considered at all
* The losses to Elon, ETSU, and Samford will be assessed. It’s possible, at this point, that all 3 of those could be/become “good losses” to seeded and/or highly-ranked, and/or Conf. Championship Teams.

If the “GREAT & good” wins stay GREAT & good enough and the “good losses” stay or get good enough, Furman will have as good a shot at a bid as any other 4-Loss Team. In other words, I think FU will get the nod over a 7-4 Team that doesn’t have more and/or better “good wins” with the same analysis applied to the 4 losses that each have. If all things are equal, Furman’s in because of superior helmet aesthetics <F> #FUATT

Also...their AGS ranking won’t matter very much at all. If they win this week, I will probably rank them. Not sure about UNI. How is Kurt Warner playing this year?

[uni88]

That's just inaccurate, they have an equal resume, one could even make a strong case that Furman's resume would be stronger at 4-4 than UNI based on the AGS poll

So not "Trying" to compare, its already been provenThis is all subjective. You've made your case but definitively proven nothing. Plenty of fans from non-MVFC conferences have disagreed with you so it isn't just homers.

And the logic is circular. Didn't someone argue that WIU was weak because they weren't ranked? If WIU is "weak" because they aren't ranked isn't Furman also weak because they aren't ranked?

FTR, I don't think UNI should be ranked.

[MR. CHICKEN]

I’m still not convinced on that. Furman had to deal with a cancelled game, which is unfortuante. Best we can do is 6-4.

It’s a long shot, I think, for an at large bid. Still, Furman will have a three touchdown win over a current top 10 team and a win over a good UTC team. One miserable quarter against ETSU probably bites us, but I think Furman will have as strong of a resume as most other 4 loss teams (7-4 clubs).

Again, not our fault Colgate pulled the plug on the game. A 7-4 Furman team with a win over Colgate almost assuredly gets in.


......TOLD YA.....COLGATE WOODAH WON.....LOOKS LIKE...DEY DID.......xhurrayx....BRAWK!

[Sycamore62]

Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up


???

AAA
Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down Not equal losses
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up Not equal losses
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down Not equal losses
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up

[Reign of Terrier]

Someone kill this thread.

[Sycamore62]

Someone kill this thread.

Only the Mocs can

[HensRock]

Feel free to add anymore thoughts to this thread if anyone feels so inclined, or not if you think its dumb lol, Ill be back on Saturday win or lose and own up to whatever is coming my way you have my word xthumbsupx

Cheers!

1. UNI is better than Furman.
2. Life is not fair.
The sooner you realize these 2 important life lessons, the better off you will be.

You can bet we'll be counting the minutes until your return. Won't we guys?





...guys?

[Reign of Terrier]

1. UNI is better than Furman.
2. Life is not fair.
The sooner you realize these 2 important life lessons, the better off you will be.

You can bet we'll be counting the minutes until your return. Won't we guys?





...guys?

You forget
3) no matter the outcome on the field, Furman sucks.

[ElCid]

You forget
3) no matter the outcome on the field, Furman sucks.

I am pretty sure that is an axiom.

[centennial]

Why do SoCon fans feel that mid level MVFC teams are the same as mid level SoCon teams?

There is a significant difference. Watch the games. Look at the Massey/ Sagarin rankings. Look at the talent on the field. UNI could possibly win the SoCon. Sagarin thinks they would.

[FUGameBreaker]

AAA
Ok so tell me where is UNI's advantage based on the AGS poll?

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down Not equal losses You are correct, the Furman loss is better because AGS has ranked ETSU
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down Not equal losses Lol, ok a 25 point home loss to top ranked team is so much better than 38 point loss on road without starting QB to a top ranked team, not a strong case mate
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up






Face the music they are essentially even xthumbsupx

[FUGameBreaker]

Why do SoCon fans feel that mid level MVFC teams are the same as mid level SoCon teams?

There is a significant difference. Watch the games. Look at the Massey/ Sagarin rankings. Look at the talent on the field. UNI could possibly win the SoCon. Sagarin thinks they would.



It comes down to resume, not freaking NDSU and all they do to prop up the valley when comparing these two teams xthumbsupx

[centennial]

It comes down to resume, not freaking NDSU and all they do to prop up the valley when comparing these two teams xthumbsupx
That's not how any of this works. Teams are playing completely different SOS. Then they get different results based on the SOS.

NDSU is not playing OOC for all of the valley.

[FUGameBreaker]

That's not how any of this works. Teams are playing completely different SOS. Then they get different results based on the SOS.

NDSU is not playing OOC for all of the valley.

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up



Using your methodology of discussing schedule, according to my chart Furman will have played more AGS currently ranked teams than UNI in each teams first 8 game stretch, so if anything that's advantage Furman

[centennial]

UNI: ------------------------------ Furman:
Loss Montana - down --------------- Loss #25 ETSU - down
Loss FBS Iowa - flat ---------------- Loss FBS Clemson - flat
Win Hampton - slight up---------- Win WCU - slight up
Win Indiana St. - slight up ------ Win Citadel - slight up
Win USD - slight up ----------- Win #30 UTC - slight up
Loss #29 WIU - down -------- Loss #34 Samford - down
Loss #1 NDSU - down -------- Loss #8 Elon - down
Win #7 SD St. - up ---------- Win #9 Wofford - up



Using your methodology of discussing schedule, according to my chart Furman will have played more AGS currently ranked teams than UNI in each teams first 8 game stretch, so if anything that's advantage Furman

Yea I'm out. No reasoning with you.