What's Wrong With the Patriot League

[DFW HOYA]

Entering the second week of October, the Patriot League has a lot of questions ahead of it. Colgate is 5-0 while the rest of the league is a combined 6-27. Over and above the sheer numbers, this thread will hopefully examine the root causes of the league's underperformance and suggest some concrete steps to remedy the situation.

This could take a while, of course.

[Go...gate]

Varying emphasis among the programs.

Roster limits are unrealistic.

[Bill]

Since THEY happen to be the academic and athletic benchmarks that we seem to always return home to, perhaps the title of this thread should be "What's Right With the Ivy League"....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since THEY happen to be the academic and athletic benchmarks that we seem to always return home to, perhaps the title of this thread should be "What's Right With the Ivy League"....

$$$$$$

[KPSUL]

Too much rumination and perseveration ?

[PAllen]

Coaching and to a lesser extent roster limits.

[Bill]

$$$$$$

LFN,

I just went and reviewed endowment information...and I almost threw up. Some quick math reveals that if you add up the ENTIRE football playing endowments of the PL, they fall somewhere between Cornell at $6.8 billion and Columbia at $10 billion (but much closer to Cornell). What I didn't realize is how far the big three have pulled ahead of everyone else. Those schools literally don't need to charge tuition.

[RichH2]

you have opened a Pandora's box of issues for the PL.
Chronologically.
Recruiting,
Pl took too long to learn the ins and outs of scholarship recruiting.The first 3 years some individual stars were signed but overall we recruited the same prospects as we sought pre scholarship

Carryover IvyLite restrictions
We retained Ivy redshirt rules and adopted a League wide AI. Both put us at a severe disadvantage vs the CAA and currently the NEC also.

Roster and scholarship caps
Both promulgated to ease the financial issues for some PL teams. Even with those some PL teams are not even at our 60 schollie cap.

One can argue the weight to be given to any of these issue but it is abundantly clear that the totality of these self imposed restrictions make it extremely difficult to compete at an OOC level that we want.If we dont make some neceesary changes our only option will be to become a parochial insular league like the Ivies with an OOC of PFL and lower level teams. It is up to the Council of Presidents to decide and act.

[CFBfan]

the league never figured out scholly football and have actually gone backwards either get real coaches or drop schollies

[LehighU11]

Coaching has been a significant issue across the PL for struggling programs. Coaches have either become complacent and/or outstayed their welcome at Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and arguably Bucknell. In the cases of Coen and Tavani, neither has been willing to take accountability for their failure to compete, let alone succeed, as head coach.

This quote from Andy Coen to the Morning Call following yesterday's debacle at Princeton is very telling:
“They’re just a better football team than we are, clearly,” LU coach Andy Coen said. “And there are reasons why they are. When you look out and their 3s [third-string players] are beating our 1s [starters], that pretty much says it all. Give me the scholarship money that the Ivies give that they say don’t, but they do, then it would be a whole different look.”

That statement from Coen makes it clear that he is deflecting blame to everyone but himself. Before yesterday, Lehigh was 5-1 against Princeton dating back to 2010. The last meeting, in 2016, Lehigh won 42-28. Coen suddenly wants people to believe that Princeton and the Ivies have surpassed Lehigh to that extent in 2 years? I don't think so. The primary issue is coaching. Lehigh should follow Holy Cross' lead from 2017 and make a mid-season change at the helm ASAP.

[WestCoastAggie]

Who's worse at the current moment; the MEAC or Patriot League?

[Mocs123]

Colgate should be 5-1 if they had played their game with Furman.

[ngineer]

PL needs to determine IF it wants to remain in the FCS picture. If so, then they need to fund accordingly. However, as pointed out by LFN, we are so far behind the curve in allocating such funds for football, that I seriously doubt the Presidents are of a mind to make such a drastic commitment. Hence,either go D-II or drop the sport and let each school fend for itself on what playground they want to play.

[RichH2]

Coaching has been a significant issue across the PL for struggling programs. Coaches have either become complacent and/or outstayed their welcome at Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and arguably Bucknell. In the cases of Coen and Tavani, neither has been willing to take accountability for their failure to compete, let alone succeed, as head coach.

This quote from Andy Coen to the Morning Call following yesterday's debacle at Princeton is very telling:
“They’re just a better football team than we are, clearly,” LU coach Andy Coen said. “And there are reasons why they are. When you look out and their 3s [third-string players] are beating our 1s [starters], that pretty much says it all. Give me the scholarship money that the Ivies give that they say don’t, but they do, then it would be a whole different look.”

That statement from Coen makes it clear that he is deflecting blame to everyone but himself. Before yesterday, Lehigh was 5-1 against Princeton dating back to 2010. The last meeting, in 2016, Lehigh won 42-28. Coen suddenly wants people to believe that Princeton and the Ivies have surpassed Lehigh to that extent in 2 years? I don't think so. The primary issue is coaching. Lehigh should follow Holy Cross' lead from 2017 and make a mid-season change at the helm ASAP.
For individual teams coaching is indeed a major factor. Lehigh in particular. Yes 11 over the last 2-3 years Ivies have passed the PL by, us also. While Andy was correct in noting the current distance between Ivies and PL, his defense of his staff for doing a "great" job is ridiculous. Obvious that Tigers outclassed Lehigh yesterday but that does not excuse missed tackles,dropped passes etc or giving up in the 3rd period. That is on our team and coaches. Throwing all the blame onto the players and Princeton and praising the coaches is asinine at best.

[Bill]

. Hence,either go D-II or drop the sport and let each school fend for itself on what playground they want to play.

ngineer, you know that dropping football to a lower division simply isn't possible or permissible. Of course, they could drop football altogether, but that's a long, long way off.

[Neighbor2]

PL needs to determine IF it wants to remain in the FCS picture. If so, then they need to fund accordingly. However, as pointed out by LFN, we are so far behind the curve in allocating such funds for football, that I seriously doubt the Presidents are of a mind to make such a drastic commitment. Hence,either go D-II or drop the sport and let each school fend for itself on what playground they want to play.


Your assessments are always very good, ngineer!

I'm not sure there is consensus in this league, nor the will, to accept real responsibility for competitive FCS success outside the league. I agree, it's time to drop football as a Patriot League sport and allow teams to participate at whatever level they choose.

What's in place now is 'kinda stupid, frankly.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Coaching has been a significant issue across the PL for struggling programs. Coaches have either become complacent and/or outstayed their welcome at Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and arguably Bucknell. In the cases of Coen and Tavani, neither has been willing to take accountability for their failure to compete, let alone succeed, as head coach.

This quote from Andy Coen to the Morning Call following yesterday's debacle at Princeton is very telling:
“They’re just a better football team than we are, clearly,” LU coach Andy Coen said. “And there are reasons why they are. When you look out and their 3s [third-string players] are beating our 1s [starters], that pretty much says it all. Give me the scholarship money that the Ivies give that they say don’t, but they do, then it would be a whole different look.”

That statement from Coen makes it clear that he is deflecting blame to everyone but himself. Before yesterday, Lehigh was 5-1 against Princeton dating back to 2010. The last meeting, in 2016, Lehigh won 42-28. Coen suddenly wants people to believe that Princeton and the Ivies have surpassed Lehigh to that extent in 2 years? I don't think so. The primary issue is coaching. Lehigh should follow Holy Cross' lead from 2017 and make a mid-season change at the helm ASAP.

The top Ivies have always been good! Lehigh had to deal with Top 15 Penn teams in the the early 2000's. The 2002 and 2003 Penn squads that beat Lehigh were very good! As were the Ryan Fitzpatrick/Clifton Dawson Harvard teams! Princeton is darn good but they're not 59 points better than Lehigh!! Penn nearly blew their game against NEC Sacred Heart yesterday. Lehigh is simply playing bad football. These excuses that Lehigh or the PL can no longer compete with the IL is absurd. Lehigh needs to either commit to the program or go in another direction all together.

[ST_Lawson]

LFN,

I just went and reviewed endowment information...and I almost threw up. Some quick math reveals that if you add up the ENTIRE football playing endowments of the PL, they fall somewhere between Cornell at $6.8 billion and Columbia at $10 billion (but much closer to Cornell). What I didn't realize is how far the big three have pulled ahead of everyone else. Those schools literally don't need to charge tuition.

Malcom Gladwell has a podcast called Revisionist History and did an episode on endowments in higher education and how the rich just keep getting richer. The top ones in the Ivy League could essentially never charge tuition again for any student ever and still be increasing the endowment every year from investment gains. And people keep giving them huge donations.

What does a $10M donation mean to Harvard?...not much...a drop in the bucket.

What would the same donation mean to any number of other schools across the country?...huge...they'd get a building named after them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bill]

Here is my simplistic, holistic view of this:

It’s coaching (and its byproduct, recruiting). The PL is a group of outstanding academic schools…but we’re not the Ivy League, nor will we be. Even as far back as the early 2000’s, we knew that if H/Y/P and Penn wanted one of our recruits, we had very little chance of winning that recruiting battle. Most students are NOT picking Lehigh over Princeton (for example) if they are admitted to both schools and the cost is the same.

I see that as part of the challenge today – we should not even try to compete with them for recruits. With scholarships, our best bet is to convince the higher end academic CAA/NEC/ NATIONAL kid (no academic disrespect meant to those programs) to take a PL scholarship because of the academic benefits the PL schools have. Yes, it is hard work, but it can be done. Of course, the AI may come into play here. It may need to be massaged a bit – if not, we will just be competing with the NESCAC schools for glorified D3 recruits….

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Here is my simplistic, holistic view of this:

It’s coaching (and its byproduct, recruiting). The PL is a group of outstanding academic schools…but we’re not the Ivy League, nor will we be. Even as far back as the early 2000’s, we knew that if H/Y/P and Penn wanted one of our recruits, we had very little chance of winning that recruiting battle. Most students are NOT picking Lehigh over Princeton (for example) if they are admitted to both schools and the cost is the same.

I see that as part of the challenge today – we should not even try to compete with them for recruits. With scholarships, our best bet is to convince the higher end academic CAA/NEC/ NATIONAL kid (no academic disrespect meant to those programs) to take a PL scholarship because of the academic benefits the PL schools have. Yes, it is hard work, but it can be done. Of course, the AI may come into play here. It may need to be massaged a bit – if not, we will just be competing with the NESCAC schools for glorified D3 recruits….

I completely agree! Who cares about winning head to head recruiting battles with Ivies?! The PL has been losing some, if not most, of those recruiting battles for as long as I can remember. The key is finding your niche' and win some recruiting wars against the CAA teams along with some of the lower tier G5 and P5 programs. The league has to loosen some of these restrictions.

[Pard4Life]

This topic came up on the Lafayette board, and here is my argument:

1) Ivy League offering grants at every school allowed them to access a greater pool of players. Columbia and Cornell no longer being on Georgetown's level has affected recruiting

2) As a result, Ivy has raised their competitive and national profile. Vastly different vs 5-10 years ago. Kids turn down P5 FBS offers to play at HYP.

3) Rise of the NEC: league offers a full allotment of scholarships without as competitive academic standards. Our pool of recruits has been narrowed.

4) Financial crisis: don't underestimate this reason... aid was reallocated from LC football for one.... even though it was restored, that took 5+ years. Not sure what happened at other schools but culture is impacted.

5) Rewinding here: major argument for PL scholarships was that we could grab Ivy recruits because they could offer more generous aid packages. That has been negated: Ivy's can offer as good packages as full scholarships if your family is not wealthy

6) Coaching is a more tactical issue... let's face it our collective talent is not great

7) Colgate is the outlier. Why?

8) Really surprised Lehigh is also not an outlier here.

[RichH2]

Here is my simplistic, holistic view of this:

It’s coaching (and its byproduct, recruiting). The PL is a group of outstanding academic schools…but we’re not the Ivy League, nor will we be. Even as far back as the early 2000’s, we knew that if H/Y/P and Penn wanted one of our recruits, we had very little chance of winning that recruiting battle. Most students are NOT picking Lehigh over Princeton (for example) if they are admitted to both schools and the cost is the same.

I see that as part of the challenge today – we should not even try to compete with them for recruits. With scholarships, our best bet is to convince the higher end academic CAA/NEC/ NATIONAL kid (no academic disrespect meant to those programs) to take a PL scholarship because of the academic benefits the PL schools have. Yes, it is hard work, but it can be done. Of course, the AI may come into play here. It may need to be massaged a bit – if not, we will just be competing with the NESCAC schools for glorified D3 recruits….

Overall the last 3 years the main competition for reccruits has been the Academies,CAA and G5 FBS. There is still some H2Hs with the Ivies but much less than pre scholarship.
Bill is right I think with our AI. As it stands now the PL low band is too restrictive unnecessarily so, In any event the PL needs to address its caps,redshirting and AI if it wants to stay a D1 conference and not be a laughingstock.

[Sader87]

Each school is different to an extent with regards to football but we're all collectively in this mess together.

Patriot League (nee Colonial League) football basically gutted the Holy Cross football program. We went from being a near perennial Top 10 FCS program to an FCS also-ran in very short order.

HC never really found its footing in the non-scholarship-era of PL football, aside from the window of the Dom Randolph years in the late aughts.

With the return of scholarships, improvement in facilities, scheduling marquee FBS games etc....the hope is/was that we could return to some semblance of where the program was in the 1980s.

Still very much a "work in progress" on Mt St James....early returns aren't exactly great but it is very early.

Changed FCS landscape since say 1986...Holy Cross then often beat out the Ancient VIII for recruits. I personally know a few who chose to go to HC then instead of Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth due to HC giving a full scholarship vs the Ivy financial aid package, the chance to play Army and BC, be part of a winning program etc etc As others have noted here, we really no longer have that card to play with regard to beating out the Ivies for recruits.

The inability to red-shirt, except for medical purposes, is another major problem. This wasn't as de rigueur at the FCS level back in the 80s as it is now. You could see the difference this made yesterday when we played UNH who regularly red-shirt. We (PL teams) are always going to be up against it when that is the case.

The problem moving forward though seems to be that we are 7 programs with many different agendas with regards to where football fits inside their institution.

[TheValleyRaider]

Colgate should be 5-1 if they had played their game with Furman.

Oh, okay xrolleyesx

[Peachy Carnahan]

Hey West Coast...seems like our honorable friends from the PL are avoiding your question.

[ccd494]

Patriot League and Ivy League switch to both playing 100% insular schedules like the NESCAC. Then the two champions meet in Yankee Stadium for some bowl.

[KPSUL]

Colgate should be 5-1 if they had played their game with Furman.

Too bad we'll never find out; Colgate will get into the 2nd round of the playoffs, Furman will stay home.

[WestCoastAggie]

Hey West Coast...seems like our honorable friends from the PL are avoiding your question.

Not here for the MEAC/HBCU hijack I guess.

In all seriousness, these same questions are being asked in multiple leagues. There's a widening gap of the "have's and have nots" in the FCS-World. You can see who's clearly investing into their programs and who isn't. It's not just the PL either.

- - - Updated - - -


Patriot League and Ivy League switch to both playing 100% insular schedules like the NESCAC. Then the two champions meet in Yankee Stadium for some bowl.

Hey!

[KPSUL]

Not here for the MEAC/HBCU hijack I guess.

In all seriousness, these same questions are being asked in multiple leagues. There's a widening gap of the "have's and have nots" in the FCS-World. You can see who's clearly investing into their programs and who isn't. It's not just the PL either.

Hey!

I think the PL and MEAC are fairly comparable. One dominant team and a bunch of others that are either inconsistent, or not competitive outside the conference.
- - Updated - -

[Bill]

I think the PL and MEAC are fairly comparable. One dominant team and a bunch of others that are either inconsistent, or not competitive outside the conference.

- - Updated - -


This year - perhaps...historically, no. Not yet.

[WestCoastAggie]

This year - perhaps...historically, no. Not yet.

This is the 2nd-3rd year of this. It's becoming an unwanted trend.

[Go Green]

Patriot League and Ivy League switch to both playing 100% insular schedules like the NESCAC. Then the two champions meet in Yankee Stadium for some bowl.

Yale trashed Maine.

[ElCid]

Oh, okay xrolleyesx

I'm thinking 6-0..... Furman is getting better, supposedly, but when that game was to have happened, I don't think Furman was up for it. But who knows.

[ColgateTD]

The demise of the PL doesn't seem to have happened in Hamilton, NY. Why can't the rest of you folks just emulate how we run our operation, then everything would be OK :)

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The demise of the PL doesn't seem to have happened in Hamilton, NY. Why can't the rest of you folks just emulate how we run our operation, then everything would be OK :)

The two-time defending PL Champ is 1-4. xeyebrowx xdrunkyx

[TheValleyRaider]

Not here for the MEAC/HBCU hijack I guess.

Hey now, we're the thread-hijackers around here :p

- - - Updated - - -


Patriot League and Ivy League switch to both playing 100% insular schedules like the NESCAC. Then the two champions meet in Yankee Stadium for some bowl.

Gag
:pumpuke:

[Go...gate]

Coaching has been a significant issue across the PL for struggling programs. Coaches have either become complacent and/or outstayed their welcome at Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and arguably Bucknell. In the cases of Coen and Tavani, neither has been willing to take accountability for their failure to compete, let alone succeed, as head coach.

This quote from Andy Coen to the Morning Call following yesterday's debacle at Princeton is very telling:
“They’re just a better football team than we are, clearly,” LU coach Andy Coen said. “And there are reasons why they are. When you look out and their 3s [third-string players] are beating our 1s [starters], that pretty much says it all. Give me the scholarship money that the Ivies give that they say don’t, but they do, then it would be a whole different look.”

That statement from Coen makes it clear that he is deflecting blame to everyone but himself. Before yesterday, Lehigh was 5-1 against Princeton dating back to 2010. The last meeting, in 2016, Lehigh won 42-28. Coen suddenly wants people to believe that Princeton and the Ivies have surpassed Lehigh to that extent in 2 years? I don't think so. The primary issue is coaching. Lehigh should follow Holy Cross' lead from 2017 and make a mid-season change at the helm ASAP.

Coen has to go. After what I saw yesterday, it is clear that he is not up to the job. And it is the height of complacency to leave him in there.

[Go...gate]

The top Ivies have always been good! Lehigh had to deal with Top 15 Penn teams in the the early 2000's. The 2002 and 2003 Penn squads that beat Lehigh were very good! As were the Ryan Fitzpatrick/Clifton Dawson Harvard teams! Princeton is darn good but they're not 59 points better than Lehigh!! Penn nearly blew their game against NEC Sacred Heart yesterday. Lehigh is simply playing bad football. These excuses that Lehigh or the PL can no longer compete with the IL are absurd. Lehigh needs to either commit to the program or go in another direction all together.

We don't always agree but I stand shoulder-to-shoulder with you on this one.

[ccd494]

Yale trashed Maine.

So?

I like the NESCAC model than the playoff model. That wasn't a shot at the Ivy League.

[Sader87]

I've always preferred a bowl game vs the Ivies than the FCS playoffs.

I wouldn't want an insular schedule though....one of the few good things about the PL is that allows for 5 OOC (next year 6) games. it allows us to play a variety of schools in the Northeast: FBS, Ivies, CAA etc

[bonarae]

Here is my simplistic, holistic view of this:

It’s coaching (and its byproduct, recruiting). The PL is a group of outstanding academic schools…but we’re not the Ivy League, nor will we be. Even as far back as the early 2000’s, we knew that if H/Y/P and Penn wanted one of our recruits, we had very little chance of winning that recruiting battle. Most students are NOT picking Lehigh over Princeton (for example) if they are admitted to both schools and the cost is the same.

I see that as part of the challenge today – we should not even try to compete with them for recruits. With scholarships, our best bet is to convince the higher end academic CAA/NEC/ NATIONAL kid (no academic disrespect meant to those programs) to take a PL scholarship because of the academic benefits the PL schools have. Yes, it is hard work, but it can be done. Of course, the AI may come into play here. It may need to be massaged a bit – if not, we will just be competing with the NESCAC schools for glorified D3 recruits….

How about competing with the likes of Rochester, Husson, MIT, and other playoff Northeast D3s? Or are those in another league altogether?


Who's worse at the current moment; the MEAC or Patriot League?

Both, I believe. There is a clear contender, the rest are pretenders.... xcoffeex


One can argue the weight to be given to any of these issue but it is abundantly clear that the totality of these self imposed restrictions make it extremely difficult to compete at an OOC level that we want.If we dont make some neceesary changes our only option will be to become a parochial insular league like the Ivies with an OOC of PFL and lower level teams. It is up to the Council of Presidents to decide and act.

I think that it hurts the future of FCS in the Northeast region. The NEC may only become the region's saving grace in the FCS.


So?

I like the NESCAC model than the playoff model. That wasn't a shot at the Ivy League.

How about the RMAC over in D-II? They only play conference games, yet they compete very well in the Road to McKinney (that is now it is called for the D-II football championship game.)


I've always preferred a bowl game vs the Ivies than the FCS playoffs.

I wouldn't want an insular schedule though....one of the few good things about the PL is that allows for 5 OOC (next year 6) games. it allows us to play a variety of schools in the Northeast: FBS, Ivies, CAA etc

I agree. But you guys need to do more dirty work for the Northeast region to remain relevant in the FCS. Schedule more coast-to-coast games with scholarship conferences (read: Big Sky and MVFC along with G5 FBS) and also don't drop the Ivies. We may be the ones dropping off into obscurity but you are one of our saving graces...

[RichH2]

Coen has to go. After what I saw yesterday, it is clear that he is not up to the job. And it is the height of complacency to leave him in there.

Too often complacency is excused as loyalty. I wish things were different but they are not. 2 titles in a bad league cannot disguise the downward cycle Lehigh has been in the last few years. True enough that a good part of the slide is the inability of the PL to keep pace with the Ivies and the PL restrictions. Colgate is showing that a team can maintain itself as a quality program. Can Hunt keep his program at this level? Time will tell.
For Lehigh, changes have to be made to reinvigorate our program. Of course, as I've said far too often, the Presidents have to pitch in to help football compete at the level we all want. We left the Ivy agreement behind us. Lets not by inaction again become a little brother imitation Ivy clone.

[Sader87]

I agree. But you guys need to do more dirty work for the Northeast region to remain relevant in the FCS. Schedule more coast-to-coast games with scholarship conferences (read: Big Sky and MVFC along with G5 FBS) and also don't drop the Ivies. We may be the ones dropping off into obscurity but you are one of our saving graces...[/QUOTE]



The Ivy League is nevah going to be obscure....you guys are the ones who should really be upgrading your schedules....hell, the Ivy League could go FBS tomorrow if it really wanted to.

I think PL games outside of the Northeast are going to continue to be rare events...too much time/$$$, no real payoff etc...though I'd love to see HC play at places like Montana, NDSU every decade or so.

[KPSUL]

Yale trashed Maine.

A real head scratcher! But then again, that pretty well describes U of Maine football for the past decade or so.

[Go...gate]

I agree. But you guys need to do more dirty work for the Northeast region to remain relevant in the FCS. Schedule more coast-to-coast games with scholarship conferences (read: Big Sky and MVFC along with G5 FBS) and also don't drop the Ivies. We may be the ones dropping off into obscurity but you are one of our saving graces...


Colgate has done this by scheduling Furman, South Dakota State and Cal Poly. Hopefully, we will schedule more such games. But others have to follow.

[ngineer]

Colgate has done this by scheduling Furman, South Dakota State and Cal Poly. Hopefully, we will schedule more such games. But others have to follow.

Lehigh will be going out to UC-Davis next September and while not at the frequency 'gate has done, has gone out of the region over the years. Problem is scheduling. Due to red shirting by other conferences, LU has been reluctant to be someone's 'opener', so that has been an impediment. I don't know if NCAA would allow a school to 'downgrade' in only one sport, ie. going to D-II. So only real option is go back to need based aid and become a second Pioneer League.

[Sader87]

Colgate has done this by scheduling Furman, South Dakota State and Cal Poly. Hopefully, we will schedule more such games. But others have to follow.

Why?

Holy Cross played BC, UNH, Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth this year....how is a game against a Big Sky, MVFC or Southern Conference school bettah than those games?

[Go...gate]

Why?

Holy Cross played BC, UNH, Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth this year....how is a game against a Big Sky, MVFC or Southern Conference school bettah than those games?

Because it gets the conference more attention outside the east. No disrespect to your present schedule upgrades, which are great and which others should also follow.

[Sader87]

Most of our recruiting is national now anyway....I just don't see playing Indiana St instead of Yale helping our program...no offense Syacamores xdrunkyx

[Go...gate]

Most of our recruiting is national now anyway....I just don't see playing Indiana St instead of Yale helping our program...no offense Sycamores xdrunkyx

How about thinking about the health of the league vs. simply the benefit of Holy Cross? You guys can be awfully insular.

[Lehigh'98]

How about thinking about the health of the league vs. simply the benefit of Holy Cross? You guys can be awfully insular.

What has Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette done in the last 10-15 years that was in PL's best interest? Lehigh's problem is coaching, the bottom of the league schools have much bigger institutional issues.

[RichH2]

What has Georgetown, Bucknell or Lafayette done in the last 10-15 years that was in PL's best interest? Lehigh's problem is coaching, the bottom of the league schools have much bigger institutional issues.
Pretty accurate. Lafayette and Bucknell were dragged into scholarships. Hoyas just refused. Hopefully Pards with Garrett will rebound. Much depends on how,or if, the Presidents will address football restrictions.
For Lehigh coaching is an issue but not the only one it faces. One only has to look at the AD's budget to realize that athletic funding is being squeezed by the University. to be fair it is not the only department being targetted.

[97Torero]

I agree. But you guys need to do more dirty work for the Northeast region to remain relevant in the FCS. Schedule more coast-to-coast games with scholarship conferences (read: Big Sky and MVFC along with G5 FBS) and also don't drop the Ivies. We may be the ones dropping off into obscurity but you are one of our saving graces...



The Ivy League is nevah going to be obscure....you guys are the ones who should really be upgrading your schedules....hell, the Ivy League could go FBS tomorrow if it really wanted to.

I think PL games outside of the Northeast are going to continue to be rare events...too much time/$$$, no real payoff etc...though I'd love to see HC play at places like Montana, NDSU every decade or so.[/QUOTE]

Come out west to San Diego. We've done a series in the past and Alumni enjoy the games to.

[Sader87]

Again, i'd like to see HC play in San Diego, Montana, Florida etc but i think it will be a rarity (once a decade?) given the cost benefit when there are so many schools in the Northeast that HC can play/schedule.

The biggest problems the PL has in football mostly resolve around funding: expanding to 63 scholarships, better pay for staff, allowing red-shirting overall etc.

Loosening the AI somehow is also an issue that should be looked at.

[Sader87]

Let me flip this question, I'd be curious to hear from others: "What is right about Patriot League football?"

[bulldog10jw]

Let me flip this question, I'd be curious to hear from others: "What is right about Patriot League football?"

Tradition

[PAllen]

Why?

Holy Cross played BC, UNH, Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth this year....how is a game against a Big Sky, MVFC or Southern Conference school bettah than those games?

It's not.

[DFW HOYA]

Tradition

Outside of Lehigh and Lafayette, not as much as you'd think.

[Ivytalk]

Let me flip this question, I'd be curious to hear from others: "What is right about Patriot League football?"
Beat me to it! But I think bulldog got it right.

[The Boogie Down]

Outside of Lehigh and Lafayette, not as much as you'd think.

Not sure how Colgate, Bucknell, and Holy Cross don't have as much or maybe even (when taking the unscored upon Colgate team or the Orange Bowl Bucknell and Cross teams into consideration) more tradition than Lehigh/Lafayette.

[Bill]

I heard these guys were pretty good....

[Sitting Bull]

What could have been.

When the "Patriot League" was born (known then as the Colonial League) - the collection of 6 teams featured 3 that were at the time 3 of the top programs in all of 1AA - Holy Cross, Colgate and Wiiiam & Mary. All three of these were competitive at 1A levels at the time and had traditions unmatched among others in 1AA. Lafayette, Lehigh and Bucknell were there to fill it out, their traditions rooted in D2 football.

Had the "Colonial" been serious, they could have built and established the dominant football league in FCS. They could have added or expanded at some point - with Delaware, Richmond or Villanova as potential new members. Instead, the Ivy got their hands involved and convinced the league to eliminate scholarships and shun the playoff system. That was all it took to lose interest at W&M who decided to take leave and instead link with UR, Delaware and JMU.

In 1983, when this was brewing, someone must have decided that the link to the Ivies was the smart play vs. acting in a nationally diverse football division.

This was the decision that has led to what the Patriot is dealing with today, playing at the bottom end of the Division when they could have positioned themselves at the top.

It pains me to see the interest lagging at these schools. I still like the OOC games against the PL above anyone else, als with the Ivy.

[The Boogie Down]

I heard these guys were pretty good....



Ha, yeah they were! But as much as I bleed maroon & white (or maroon & gold as was the case back then), I gotta concede that we had either no team, a club team or a D-III team from 1955 to 1988. Hard to compare that to Lehigh/Lafayette when it comes to tradition.

[The Boogie Down]

What could have been.

When the "Patriot League" was born (known then as the Colonial League) - the collection of 6 teams featured 3 that were at the time 3 of the top programs in all of 1AA - Holy Cross, Colgate and Wiiiam & Mary. All three of these were competitive at 1A levels at the time and had traditions unmatched among others in 1AA. Lafayette, Lehigh and Bucknell were there to fill it out, their traditions rooted in D2 football.

Had the "Colonial" been serious, they could have built and established the dominant football league in FCS. They could have added or expanded at some point - with Delaware, Richmond or Villanova as potential new members. Instead, the Ivy got their hands involved and convinced the league to eliminate scholarships and shun the playoff system. That was all it took to lose interest at W&M who decided to take leave and instead link with UR, Delaware and JMU.

In 1983, when this was brewing, someone must have decided that the link to the Ivies was the smart play vs. acting in a nationally diverse football division.

This was the decision that has led to what the Patriot is dealing with today, playing at the bottom end of the Division when they could have positioned themselves at the top.

It pains me to see the interest lagging at these schools. I still like the OOC games against the PL above anyone else, als with the Ivy.

Great post but I had heard (from another thread here) that the CL/PL was practically created by the IL. If I remember correctly, the story was that the already insulated IL wanted to have a like-minded league to go up against after they were dropped to the I-AA level. So they approached the independents you've listed w/the hopes that they'd unite as a league. Which, w/Davidson later replacing W&M, they happily did.

[Go...gate]

The Ivy League is nevah going to be obscure....you guys are the ones who should really be upgrading your schedules....hell, the Ivy League could go FBS tomorrow if it really wanted to.

I think PL games outside of the Northeast are going to continue to be rare events...too much time/$$$, no real payoff etc...though I'd love to see HC play at places like Montana, NDSU every decade or so.

Come out west to San Diego. We've done a series in the past and Alumni enjoy the games too.[/QUOTE]

It would be great to have a USD-Colgate home and home.

[Kramden]

What could have been.

When the "Patriot League" was born (known then as the Colonial League) - the collection of 6 teams featured 3 that were at the time 3 of the top programs in all of 1AA - Holy Cross, Colgate and Wiiiam & Mary. All three of these were competitive at 1A levels at the time and had traditions unmatched among others in 1AA. Lafayette, Lehigh and Bucknell were there to fill it out, their traditions rooted in D2 football.

Had the "Colonial" been serious, they could have built and established the dominant football league in FCS. They could have added or expanded at some point - with Delaware, Richmond or Villanova as potential new members. Instead, the Ivy got their hands involved and convinced the league to eliminate scholarships and shun the playoff system. That was all it took to lose interest at W&M who decided to take leave and instead link with UR, Delaware and JMU.

In 1983, when this was brewing, someone must have decided that the link to the Ivies was the smart play vs. acting in a nationally diverse football division.

This was the decision that has led to what the Patriot is dealing with today, playing at the bottom end of the Division when they could have positioned themselves at the top.

It pains me to see the interest lagging at these schools. I still like the OOC games against the PL above anyone else, als with the Ivy.

You nailed it. I would hope some day PL Football goes away and Colgate joins the CAA. Not sure that will ever happen but maybe we can become relavent again.

[Sitting Bull]

Great post but I had heard (from another thread here) that the CL/PL was practically created by the IL. If I remember correctly, the story was that the already insulated IL wanted to have a like-minded league to go up against after they were dropped to the I-AA level. So they approached the independents you've listed w/the hopes that they'd unite as a league. Which, w/Davidson later replacing W&M, they happily did.

I think part if not all of of that is true. It was announced that there would be a scheduling link with the Ivy, though not exclusive. There was also discussion of a Bowl Game between the two league Champions (where did that go?).

Something shifted though from the original concept as W&M decided to exit before it got started. It may have been scholarships, it may have been the Ivy became TOO involved in the leagues development. W&M would have had a strong interest in maintaining OOC links with UR, Delaware and traditional 1A opponents such as UVA and UNC who we continue to play today. Possibly that didn't fit.

Back to the earlier point though, Colgate and Holy Cross were among the absolute cream of all the football programs in the Division (FCS/1AA) at that time. It would have been great, looking back, if they had actually become member of what is now the CAA.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think part if not all of of that is true. It was announced that there would be a scheduling link with the Ivy, though not exclusive. There was also discussion of a Bowl Game between the two league Champions (where did that go?).

Something shifted though from the original concept as W&M decided to exit before it got started. It may have been scholarships, it may have been the Ivy became TOO involved in the leagues development. W&M would have had a strong interest in maintaining OOC links with UR, Delaware and traditional 1A opponents such as UVA and UNC who we continue to play today. Possibly that didn't fit.

Back to the earlier point though, Colgate and Holy Cross were among the absolute cream of all the football programs in the Division (FCS/1AA) at that time. It would have been great, looking back, if they had actually become member of what is now the CAA.

Lehigh wasn't far off either. They were in the 1980 1-AA Finals and had some really good teams that carried into the mid 80's. I'm pretty sure they were 5-1 in the 80's against Delaware prior to the formation of the PL. Lehigh's program also took a significant step back into obscurity imo.

[Sitting Bull]

Lehigh wasn't far off either. They were in the 1980 1-AA Finals and had some really good teams that carried into the mid 80's. I'm pretty sure they were 5-1 in the 80's against Delaware prior to the formation of the PL. Lehigh's program also took a significant step back into obscurity imo.

Lehigh is another excellent, tradional program. The difference though vs. HC, W&M and Colgate at the time was these schools were competing at the 1A level until 1AA was created. They actually moved down to Lehigh's level.

Lehigh (and Delaware for that matter) were Division 2 schools. The championship you mention, I think that was actually the D2 national championship at that time. The first official year of 1AA was 1982.

Schools who were playing D1 at the time who were pushed down were HC, Colgate, W&M, UR, the entire Southern Conference, the Ivy League and the MAC. The MAC resisted and played one year of provisional football where they had to average 15,000 attendance to move back up. They managed that with some smoke and mirrors.

[bulldog10jw]

Not sure how Colgate, Bucknell, and Holy Cross don't have as much or maybe even (when taking the unscored upon Colgate team or the Orange Bowl Bucknell and Cross teams into consideration) more tradition than Lehigh/Lafayette.

Seven blocks of granite. Vince Lombardi. Isn't Fordham still in the league as well?

[Bill]

Seven blocks of granite. Vince Lombardi. Isn't Fordham still in the league as well?

bulldog!! check out the pict at the top of this page....

[bulldog10jw]

I heard these guys were pretty good....

Sorry, Bill. I missed this before I posted.

[Bill]

xdrunkyx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Lehigh is another excellent, tradional program. The difference though vs. HC, W&M and Colgate at the time was these schools were competing at the 1A level until 1AA was created. They actually moved down to Lehigh's level.

Lehigh (and Delaware for that matter) were Division 2 schools. The championship you mention, I think that was actually the D2 national championship at that time. The first official year of 1AA was 1982.

Schools who were playing D1 at the time who were pushed down were HC, Colgate, W&M, UR, the entire Southern Conference, the Ivy League and the MAC. The MAC resisted and played one year of provisional football where they had to average 15,000 attendance to move back up. They managed that with some smoke and mirrors.

1-AA was formed in 1978, 1 year after Lehigh won the D2 National Title.

Lehigh actually played in the 1979 1-AA Finals against EKU. They lost to EKU in the 1-AA Semifinals in 1980.

[Go...gate]

Great post but I had heard (from another thread here) that the CL/PL was practically created by the IL. If I remember correctly, the story was that the already insulated IL wanted to have a like-minded league to go up against after they were dropped to the I-AA level. So they approached the independents you've listed w/the hopes that they'd unite as a league. Which, w/Davidson later replacing W&M, they happily did.

This is pretty much correct. Tony Maruca of Princeton was the Ivy liason duding the formation of the Colonial League in 1983. Colgate welcomed the league because it already had long-standing scheduling arrangements with most of the other teams in the league and also was (and still is) the Ivies' most-played non-conference opponent. The Colonial League also allowed Colgate the freedom to schedule one or more I-A games as well as a game in the south (W&M) every two years.

[Go...gate]

I still think the league's failure to admit Hofstra in the mid-1990's was a major loss for the league (and for Hofstra). Hofstra had a strong football program in the PL geographical footprint with a fine facility, they were spending a great deal on building up their academic facilities and profile, and they had a real interest in the Patriot "model". They were perfectly happy to go from scholarship to "equivalency aid" football. Somehow, we turned them down. I understand there were (and still are) very hard feelings.

[Sitting Bull]

1-AA was formed in 1978, 1 year after Lehigh won the D2 National Title.

Lehigh actually played in the 1979 1-AA Finals against EKU. They lost to EKU in the 1-AA Semifinals in 1980.

And Colgate, Holy Cross, W&M along with the Ivy League, Southern and MAC were all playing 1A football at that time. 1982 was when the NCAA pushed a dividing line based on stadium size and average attendance that pushed all down to 1AA.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I still think the league's failure to admit Hofstra in the mid-1990's was a major loss for the league (and for Hofstra). Hofstra had a strong football program in the PL geographical footprint with a fine facility, they were spending a great deal on building up their academic facilities and profile, and they had a real interest in the Patriot "model". They were perfectly happy to go from scholarship to "equivalency aid" football. Somehow, we turned them down. I understand there were very hard feelings.

So it came down to Towson and Hofstra? I remember seeing Wayne Chrebet and Hofstra at Goodman in '93 or there about. If nothing else, Towson was a lot easier to get to!

[Bill]

So it came down to Towson and Hofstra? I remember seeing Wayne Chrebet and Hofstra at Goodman in '93 or there about. If nothing else, Towson was a lot easier to get to!

And not to be forgotten, Fordham and Georgetown came UP to the PL and 1-AA football...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And not to be forgotten, Fordham and Georgetown came UP to the PL and 1-AA football...

Georgetown was already 1-AA (MAAC) before joining the PL. The Hoyas went D1 in 1993.

[Bill]

Sorry I didn't clarify...I meant that both schools were coming up from DIII before joining the PL. DFW can share more, but the Hoyas were one of the teams dragged up due to the Dayton rule. I think they would have been happy remaining in D3...

[Franks Tanks]

Lehigh- obviously had great success in D2 in the pre-PL era. Were likely just as good as the squads coming from the D—1 Indy ranks

Lafayette- didn’t have great success in D2 but still a quality team in that era. Played many D1 squads through the 70’s such as Rutgers, Colgate and the Ivies as well as many D2 squads that are now FCS. We’re quite good in the 80’s under Russo nearly beating Army on many occasions. First PL squad to beat the Holy Cross dynasty of the 80’s and first team not named Holy Cross to win the league in 88. Frank Bauer was on the cover of SI and Billy Russo was national coach of the year in 88.

Bucknell- Have the orange bowl in the 40’s and some food years in the 60’s, but overall a bit less relevant.

Fordham- we know about their pre-ww2 days, but largely out of site until they jumped to the PL in 89 I think. Great addition

[ccd494]

Because it gets the conference more attention outside the east. No disrespect to your present schedule upgrades, which are great and which others should also follow.

All due respect here.... what? Why does the amount of attention the conference gets matter in any way?

Outside of the posters on this board, how many people notice who is on the out of conference schedule for an FCS team? 8? Do we get to double digits with 10? And, look at this board. Every other thread is about the Patriot League!

Also, in what way does it matter whether Holy Cross plays middling out of conference opponents from the Acela corridor or if Holy Cross plays middling out of conference opponents from the Gulf South? The number of people tuning into that game can be counted on fingers and toes in either case. If Holy Cross wins the Patriot League, it goes to the playoffs. If Holy Cross comes in second in the PL with a good record, and a winning non-conference record against FCS teams (anyone with a pulse), it gets an at-large. It does not matter whether 37 random Montanans had the chance to lay eyes on them in person.

We are all here for one of three reasons:

1.) Our school can afford to be FBS, but can't find a home (James Madison, and, maybe NDSU?).
2.) Our school can afford to be FBS, but doesn't institutionally prioritize football, and at the same time doesn't want to really associate with your general FCS safety school academic riff-raff (the Ivies, maybe Georgetown).
2.) Our school can't afford to be FBS in any meaningful way (everyone else).

People can get myopic about this, but in the grand scheme of things if FCS teams win games it really doesn't matter. Rhapsodize about the one true champion-ness of the playoff system all you want, and how everyone has a chance, etc. etc. but we are here because we can't be there. Our schools see institutional value in having football for marketing, or alumni engagement, or boosting the male enrollment number (looking at you, Presbyterian). Going 4-7 without a playoff berth and going 8-3 with a trip to the middle of nowhere in the Dakotas isn't a big difference in the grand scheme of things. You get your five or six home games to bring alumni to campus. The 40 non-parent fans who would travel to South Dakota State in late November will care either way. And, heck, you don't have to worry about the logistical nightmare of flying to Brookings, South Dakota on a week's notice.

[ngineer]

I think part if not all of of that is true. It was announced that there would be a scheduling link with the Ivy, though not exclusive. There was also discussion of a Bowl Game between the two league Champions (where did that go?).

Something shifted though from the original concept as W&M decided to exit before it got started. It may have been scholarships, it may have been the Ivy became TOO involved in the leagues development. W&M would have had a strong interest in maintaining OOC links with UR, Delaware and traditional 1A opponents such as UVA and UNC who we continue to play today. Possibly that didn't fit.

Back to the earlier point though, Colgate and Holy Cross were among the absolute cream of all the football programs in the Division (FCS/1AA) at that time. It would have been great, looking back, if they had actually become member of what is now the CAA.

I was around in the mid-80's when the CL/PL was created. The word I received was that W&M was on board as an administration, but when the alumni got wind of doing away with scholarships, there was a major revolt leading to W&M's dropping out and being replaced by Davidson, who dropped after one or two years of horrible beatings. You are correct that there was a 'working relationship' established with the IL for scheduling 2-3 games a year between the two leagues. And that's the way it's been for 32 years. The concept was to create, eventually, an all-sports conference, which the PL is today (except for wrestling and ice hockey). Navy and Army are full members except for football. Fordham dropped from being all-sports to just football, by joining the Atlantic 10 for other sports.
There have been some articles over the years in Sports Illustrated and John Feinstein's best seller book "The Last Amateurs" reveals the 'utopian' philosophy of, then, Lehigh President Likins, who was a big promoter of still trying to play D-I sports but by keeping the "student" primary in athletics. It was always going to be a struggle, and perhaps, a number of people are tired of struggling.

[ngineer]

I still think the league's failure to admit Hofstra in the mid-1990's was a major loss for the league (and for Hofstra). Hofstra had a strong football program in the PL geographical footprint with a fine facility, they were spending a great deal on building up their academic facilities and profile, and they had a real interest in the Patriot "model". They were perfectly happy to go from scholarship to "equivalency aid" football. Somehow, we turned them down. I understand there were very hard feelings.

I strongly agree with that observation. PL really missed the boat on that opportunity and it would have saved The Flying Dutchman program.

[ngineer]

It always comes down to money. How much does a school want to invest in the bricks and mortar needed for a program, let alone the operational costs of equipment and salaries required of a football program; and how much "ROI" is there in that expenditure in terms of alumni engagement and being part of the "educational process?" PL may have to make a decision on which fork in the road to take.

[Sader87]

Lot of good posts lately on the formation of the league, why it continues to exist etc etc but bringing it back to what's wrong with the football league currently, here are some broad solutions of mine to improve the league:

1. Get rid of the self-imposed restrictions set by the PL on scholarship #'s and rostah size.

2. Come up with an agreement on how red-shirting could be done in the league aside from medical red-shirting.

3. Modify or get rid of the AI completely...all 7 schools were able to admit student-athletes to their respective institution without this for decades.

There are more solutions but I think those are the "Big 3" to make PL football more competitive against other FCS programs.

As I mentioned before in this thread though, I think there are widely divergent views on where the 7 schools see football in their institution's culture.

Running them down alphabetically....an outsider's view on the 6 other PL schools/football...please correct me if need be:

Bucknell: Probably sanguine with the status quo....football has rarely been seen as "important"...basketball school 1st among the major sports in a region that is sparsely populated with a Penn St above everybody else mentality.

Colgate: The gold standard of PL football schools for 30 years. I think they want to stay as competitive as they can be (nationally relevant) in the FCS.

Fordham: The school that dragged the PL into giving scholarships...like GTown, a "football only PL membah" which could complicate things in changing policies (AI, redshirting etc) within the PL. I think they want to make football a priority for many of the reasons ccd stated above.

Georgetown: Probably the league outlier in many ways. From afar, I don't see much movement to build up their football program from where it currently is.

Holy Cross: In typical HC fashion, trying to build back football but doing so in a haphazard mannah. I think TPTB at HC want to have a very good football program but are wary of alienating the PL and the Ivies in doing so.

Lafayette: Sort of, see HC above...I think their is a core of support to improve football but are ensnared in red-tape in doing so.

Lehigh: Very similar to Colgate, have had sustained success with PL football in and out of the league for 30 years....would not be averse to changes in league policy to improve football.

Very simplistic I know...but it shows a league with membahs with varying agendas overall on how to (or not to) change/impove PL football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It always comes down to money. How much does a school want to invest in the bricks and mortar needed for a program, let alone the operational costs of equipment and salaries required of a football program; and how much "ROI" is there in that expenditure in terms of alumni engagement and being part of the "educational process?" PL may have to make a decision on which fork in the road to take.

At the PL level, "how much money you want to invest" is almost always "how much money do you want to offer in scholarships". It is more than half the line-budget item in the football budget. Certainly there are facilities costs associated, but it pales in size to the scholarship budget.

Thought about in this way, a PL football program is not so much a "money drain" as much as a "we want to allow student-athletes to have a way to attend our great school". This is why John Silber was such an asshole. He knew he didn't want football athletes at his school. So over the course of decades he chinked away at football at BU, making a whole lot of arguments about "how much is spent" and "return on investment" and (my least favorite) "athletics as a money-making enterprise". Finally his vision of a football-less BU came to fruition, thanks to his starvation and dogged determination to put a pillow over the head of BU football and apply pressure.

Thinking about "ROI" in terms of football is ludicrous. The "return" you get isn't measured is dollars and cents as Silber's accounting would have you believe. The return is graduating great players that are great school ambassadors in the future. If some end up being CEOs, that's terrific. If some end up as NFL or NBA players, that's also terrific.

[Go Green]

I think TPTB at HC want to have a very good football program but are wary of alienating the PL and the Ivies in doing so.

I can't imagine the Ivy would care if HC or the PL implemented some changes to make football more competitive.

The Ivies have scheduled plenty of teams in recent years that are doing things differently than the Ivy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can't imagine the Ivy would care if HC or the PL implemented some changes to make football more competitive.

The Ivies have scheduled plenty of teams in recent years that are doing things differently than the Ivy.

They used to, but not anymore!

[RichH2]

Lot of good posts lately on the formation of the league, why it continues to exist etc etc but bringing it back to what's wrong with the football league currently, here are some broad solutions of mine to improve the league:

1. Get rid of the self-imposed restrictions set by the PL on scholarship #'s and rostah size.

2. Come up with an agreement on how red-shirting could be done in the league aside from medical red-shirting.

3. Modify or get rid of the AI completely...all 7 schools were able to admit student-athletes to their respective institution without this for decades.

There are more solutions but I think those are the "Big 3" to make PL football more competitive against other FCS programs.

As I mentioned before in this thread though, I think there are widely divergent views on where the 7 schools see football in their institution's culture.

Running them down alphabetically....an outsider's view on the 6 other PL schools/football...please correct me if need be:

Bucknell: Probably sanguine with the status quo....football has rarely been seen as "important"...basketball school 1st among the major sports in a region that is sparsely populated with a Penn St above everybody else mentality.

Colgate: The gold standard of PL football schools for 30 years. I think they want to stay as competitive as they can be (nationally relevant) in the FCS.

Fordham: The school that dragged the PL into giving scholarships...like GTown, a "football only PL membah" which could complicate things in changing policies (AI, redshirting etc) within the PL. I think they want to make football a priority for many of the reasons ccd stated above.

Georgetown: Probably the league outlier in many ways. From afar, I don't see much movement to build up their football program from where it currently is.

Holy Cross: In typical HC fashion, trying to build back football but doing so in a haphazard mannah. I think TPTB at HC want to have a very good football program but are wary of alienating the PL and the Ivies in doing so.

Lafayette: Sort of, see HC above...I think their is a core of support to improve football but are ensnared in red-tape in doing so.

Lehigh: Very similar to Colgate, have had sustained success with PL football in and out of the league for 30 years....would not be averse to changes in league policy to improve football.

Very simplistic I know...but it shows a league with membahs with varying agendas overall on how to (or not to) change/impove PL football.

A great series of posts. As ngineer noted, the PL faces the decision now, not later, to choose our future path. All in or all out. Current half measures are making us the laughing stock of FCS.
87 you have hit all the major areas that need to be modified.
1. Adopt NCAA 63 scholarship max.
2. Abolish roster cap
3. Modify redshirt rules. I believe a plan allowing each school to redshirt up to an rolling average 20 players over a 4 year period. In other words, a roster may not have more than 20 shirts in any 4 yr period. Phase it in with no more than 5 per year in the 1st 4 years.
4. AI. Council will never abolish the AI. Going back to our original of recruit classes matching the AI of their incoming class would be feasible in football. May not be in Bball or Lax given BU and Loyola with substantially lower admission standards.
Highly doubtful that the Presidents will address all of these issues in the same year.
Which one should be done first?

[Sader87]

I can't imagine the Ivy would care if HC or the PL implemented some changes to make football more competitive.

The Ivies have scheduled plenty of teams in recent years that are doing things differently than the Ivy.

I wouldn't be so sure of that...from either perspective (Ivy and HC).

The Ivies dropped a lot of PL schools from their future schedules when the PL "went scholly." Ironically, the Ivies in general have become stronger in the last 5 or so years and mostly win those PL-IL that remain rather easily...see: Princeton 66 Lehigh 7 F

From HC's perspective, a lot of this is, for lack of a bettah term, "not rocking the boat with the Ivies"....TPTB at HC highly value having Ivy League schools on their football schedule....thinking being "you are who you associate with"....i.e. if the Ivies perceive that HC is ramping up its football program to a pre-PL level again, they may very well not choose to schedule them any more or drop us from future schedules.

[Go...gate]

So it came down to Towson and Hofstra? I remember seeing Wayne Chrebet and Hofstra at Goodman in '93 or there about. If nothing else, Towson was a lot easier to get to!

Yes. And Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

[Go...gate]

At the PL level, "how much money you want to invest" is almost always "how much money do you want to offer in scholarships". It is more than half the line-budget item in the football budget. Certainly there are facilities costs associated, but it pales in size to the scholarship budget.

Thought about in this way, a PL football program is not so much a "money drain" as much as a "we want to allow student-athletes to have a way to attend our great school". This is why John Silber was such an asshole. He knew he didn't want football athletes at his school. So over the course of decades he chinked away at football at BU, making a whole lot of arguments about "how much is spent" and "return on investment" and (my least favorite) "athletics as a money-making enterprise". Finally his vision of a football-less BU came to fruition, thanks to his starvation and dogged determination to put a pillow over the head of BU football and apply pressure.

Thinking about "ROI" in terms of football is ludicrous. The "return" you get isn't measured is dollars and cents as Silber's accounting would have you believe. The return is graduating great players that are great school ambassadors in the future. If some end up being CEOs, that's terrific. If some end up as NFL or NBA players, that's also terrific.

You hit it on the head.

[bonarae]

Thought about in this way, a PL football program is not so much a "money drain" as much as a "we want to allow student-athletes to have a way to attend our great school". This is why John Silber was such an asshole. He knew he didn't want football athletes at his school. So over the course of decades he chinked away at football at BU, making a whole lot of arguments about "how much is spent" and "return on investment" and (my least favorite) "athletics as a money-making enterprise". Finally his vision of a football-less BU came to fruition, thanks to his starvation and dogged determination to put a pillow over the head of BU football and apply pressure.

Thinking about "ROI" in terms of football is ludicrous. The "return" you get isn't measured is dollars and cents as Silber's accounting would have you believe. The return is graduating great players that are great school ambassadors in the future. If some end up being CEOs, that's terrific. If some end up as NFL or NBA players, that's also terrific.

From another perspective...

Did Silber and the then-UOP (Pacific, CA) president follow the same patterns in dropping football at their respective universities? Look at the two universities now, worlds apart in athletics... xrulesx

[Go...gate]

From another perspective...

Did Silber and the then-UOP (Pacific, CA) president follow the same patterns in dropping football at their respective universities? Look at the two universities now, worlds apart in athletics... xrulesx

Good question.

[The Boogie Down]

Yes. And Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

Never made sense to me how the PL would turn away Hofstra but would then somehow accept Towson State. Especially since Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

[Go...gate]

All due respect here.... what? Why does the amount of attention the conference gets matter in any way?

Outside of the posters on this board, how many people notice who is on the out of conference schedule for an FCS team? 8? Do we get to double digits with 10? And, look at this board. Every other thread is about the Patriot League!

Also, in what way does it matter whether Holy Cross plays middling out of conference opponents from the Acela corridor or if Holy Cross plays middling out of conference opponents from the Gulf South? The number of people tuning into that game can be counted on fingers and toes in either case. If Holy Cross wins the Patriot League, it goes to the playoffs. If Holy Cross comes in second in the PL with a good record, and a winning non-conference record against FCS teams (anyone with a pulse), it gets an at-large. It does not matter whether 37 random Montanans had the chance to lay eyes on them in person.

We are all here for one of three reasons:

1.) Our school can afford to be FBS, but can't find a home (James Madison, and, maybe NDSU?).
2.) Our school can afford to be FBS, but doesn't institutionally prioritize football, and at the same time doesn't want to really associate with your general FCS safety school academic riff-raff (the Ivies, maybe Georgetown).
2.) Our school can't afford to be FBS in any meaningful way (everyone else).

People can get myopic about this, but in the grand scheme of things if FCS teams win games it really doesn't matter. Rhapsodize about the one true champion-ness of the playoff system all you want, and how everyone has a chance, etc. etc. but we are here because we can't be there. Our schools see institutional value in having football for marketing, or alumni engagement, or boosting the male enrollment number (looking at you, Presbyterian). Going 4-7 without a playoff berth and going 8-3 with a trip to the middle of nowhere in the Dakotas isn't a big difference in the grand scheme of things. You get your five or six home games to bring alumni to campus. The 40 non-parent fans who would travel to South Dakota State in late November will care either way. And, heck, you don't have to worry about the logistical nightmare of flying to Brookings, South Dakota on a week's notice.

All due respect in return - it is a different dynamic for a Yankee Conference/CAA school that does not recruit students and athletes nationally.

[Go...gate]

Never made sense to me how the PL would turn away Hofstra but would then somehow accept Towson State. Especially since Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

It remains a sore spot with Hofstra. They have pretty much embargoed Patriot teams since.

[RichH2]

It remains a sore spot with Hofstra. They have pretty much embargoed Patriot teams since.

Wevplay the every year in softball.

[Sader87]

Never made sense to me how the PL would turn away Hofstra but would then somehow accept Towson State. Especially since Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

I don't think Towson was ever "accepted" into the PL...just sort of a holding pattern spot for them for football and made scheduling easier for the PL...I could be wrong, this was during my mostly indifferent HC football fan phase of 1995-2005 or so I think

[Go...gate]

I don't think Towson was ever "accepted" into the PL...just sort of a holding pattern spot for them for football and made scheduling easier for the PL...I could be wrong, this was during my mostly indifferent HC football fan phase of 1995-2005 or so I think

Yes, they were formally an Associate Member of the PL.

[Go...gate]

We play them every year in softball.

I believe that is more likely the exception that proves the rule.

[ccd494]

This is why John Silber was such an asshole. He knew he didn't want football athletes at his school. So over the course of decades he chinked away at football at BU, making a whole lot of arguments about "how much is spent" and "return on investment" and (my least favorite) "athletics as a money-making enterprise". Finally his vision of a football-less BU came to fruition, thanks to his starvation and dogged determination to put a pillow over the head of BU football and apply pressure.

Thinking about "ROI" in terms of football is ludicrous. The "return" you get isn't measured is dollars and cents as Silber's accounting would have you believe. The return is graduating great players that are great school ambassadors in the future. If some end up being CEOs, that's terrific. If some end up as NFL or NBA players, that's also terrific.

Despite your decade long whinge about BU, BU is doing great without football and no one there misses it. Having Raja Bell in the NBA was not more productive for BU than continuing to offer a world class education in a major city. Yes, SEC schools, Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, etc. get kids to enroll because of the atmosphere around their college football programs. Playing Holy Cross in front of 8,000 people at Nickerson Field isn't going to make a kid say "I love sports! I was going to go to Penn State, but look at what I can see at BU!" Kids don't apply to colleges because someone is the 10th man on the Suns' bench. Continuing to sponsor football in the hopes you produce Joe Flacco (although I'd be shocked if the reason kids apply to UD is Flacco) is like spending your rent money on lottery tickets.

And be careful what you wish for with ambassadors. The three highest profile Maine alumni in pro football are nationally recognized because:

1. Shot and killed his girlfriend in front of his mother, then drove to the stadium and shot himself in front of coaches and the GM.
2. Was killed in a police chase going 90+ miles per hour in a residential district and collided with a tanker truck. He was later found to be suffering from advanced CTE.
3. Plead guilty in federal court to possession of 100+ steroid pills found in a traffic stop.

That's not to disparage the many fine alumni that Maine's football program has produced, but "Hey look at this guy on the Lions' practice squad!" gets less attention than "Murder/suicide in front of Romeo Crennell."

[Doc QB]

Despite your decade long whinge about BU, BU is doing great without football and no one there misses it. Having Raja Bell in the NBA was not more productive for BU than continuing to offer a world class education in a major city. Yes, SEC schools, Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, etc. get kids to enroll because of the atmosphere around their college football programs. Playing Holy Cross in front of 8,000 people at Nickerson Field isn't going to make a kid say "I love sports! I was going to go to Penn State, but look at what I can see at BU!" Kids don't apply to colleges because someone is the 10th man on the Suns' bench. Continuing to sponsor football in the hopes you produce Joe Flacco (although I'd be shocked if the reason kids apply to UD is Flacco) is like spending your rent money on lottery tickets.

And be careful what you wish for with ambassadors. The three highest profile Maine alumni in pro football are nationally recognized because:

1. Shot and killed his girlfriend in front of his mother, then drove to the stadium and shot himself in front of coaches and the GM.
2. Was killed in a police chase going 90+ miles per hour in a residential district and collided with a tanker truck. He was later found to be suffering from advanced CTE.
3. Plead guilty in federal court to possession of 100+ steroid pills found in a traffic stop.

That's not to disparage the many fine alumni that Maine's football program has produced, but "Hey look at this guy on the Lions' practice squad!" gets less attention than "Murder/suicide in front of Romeo Crennell."

Damn, that is some sobering $h!t. And yes, outside of the football factories, smaller college football is most assuredly not a reason non-athletes attend a particular school. I would also hazard a guess that most current Lehigh students have no idea who CJ McCollum is, and probably not aware of the Duke hoops game either. Its a different era, different students, and has been blog'd about here in regard to its affect on stadium attendance at some schools.

But, LFN has made this point in the past and I agree with it...it wasn't costing Hofstra, BU, and N'eastern huge bucks to field football. The $3-7 million spent is not a huge part of school budgets these days, and it is spent at a number of FCS schools that don't recover any of that cost. Same can be said for many academic departments. They just didn't think it is worth it. Others do. I glad Lehigh does, but as has been said here, the amount and the how we are spending it aint giving us the results we want.

[Doc QB]

Despite your decade long whinge about BU, BU is doing great without football and no one there misses it. Having Raja Bell in the NBA was not more productive for BU than continuing to offer a world class education in a major city. Yes, SEC schools, Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, etc. get kids to enroll because of the atmosphere around their college football programs. Playing Holy Cross in front of 8,000 people at Nickerson Field isn't going to make a kid say "I love sports! I was going to go to Penn State, but look at what I can see at BU!" Kids don't apply to colleges because someone is the 10th man on the Suns' bench. Continuing to sponsor football in the hopes you produce Joe Flacco (although I'd be shocked if the reason kids apply to UD is Flacco) is like spending your rent money on lottery tickets.

And be careful what you wish for with ambassadors. The three highest profile Maine alumni in pro football are nationally recognized because:

1. Shot and killed his girlfriend in front of his mother, then drove to the stadium and shot himself in front of coaches and the GM.
2. Was killed in a police chase going 90+ miles per hour in a residential district and collided with a tanker truck. He was later found to be suffering from advanced CTE.
3. Plead guilty in federal court to possession of 100+ steroid pills found in a traffic stop.

That's not to disparage the many fine alumni that Maine's football program has produced, but "Hey look at this guy on the Lions' practice squad!" gets less attention than "Murder/suicide in front of Romeo Crennell."

Damn, that is some sobering $h!t. And yes, outside of the football factories, smaller college football is most assuredly not a reason non-athletes attend a particular school. I would also hazard a guess that most current Lehigh students have no idea who CJ McCollum is, and probably not aware of the Duke hoops game either. Its a different era, different students, and has been blog'd about here in regard to its affect on stadium attendance at some schools.

But, LFN has made this point in the past and I agree with it...it wasn't costing Hofstra, BU, and N'eastern huge bucks to field football. The $3-7 million spent is not a huge part of school budgets these days, and it is spent at a number of FCS schools that don't recover any of that cost. Same can be said for many academic departments. They just didn't think it is worth it. Others do. I glad Lehigh does, but as has been said here, the amount and the how we are spending it aint giving us the results we want.

[DFW HOYA]

The $3-7 million spent is not a huge part of school budgets these days, and it is spent at a number of FCS schools that don't recover any of that cost. Same can be said for many academic departments. They just didn't think it is worth it. Others do. I glad Lehigh does, but as has been said here, the amount and the how we are spending it aint giving us the results we want.

But it is.

Football as a percentage of PL athletic budgets (net of any unassigned expenses) per EADA reports:

Lafayette: 36.0%
Holy Cross: 29.2%
Fordham: 26.8%
Colgate: 26.6%
Lehigh: 24.6%
Bucknell: 23.6%
Georgetown: 5.9%

[Ramblin' Man]

I think that Doc QB was referring to a school's TOTAL budget, not just the athletic department budget.

[Sader87]

I'm just glad we built a $90MM practice facility so we can now keep games with Bucknell close....xdrunkyx

[Ken_Z]

I don't think Towson was ever "accepted" into the PL...just sort of a holding pattern spot for them for football and made scheduling easier for the PL...I could be wrong, this was during my mostly indifferent HC football fan phase of 1995-2005 or so I think

correct, huge difference between taking on an associate member, a three year commitment that must be renewed, compared to a full member which is essentially permanent (unless the school chooses to leave). Towson was always viewed as a temporary, expedient solution for both parties. Hofstra was judged against a much higher standard in determining if they should be extended full membership.

[Ken_Z]

I'm just glad we built a $90MM practice facility so we can now keep games with Bucknell close....xdrunkyx

while at Bucknell we continue to wait for approval to raise funds for a new field house for football which was supposed to be included in the last capital campaign.

[DFW HOYA]

I think that Doc QB was referring to a school's TOTAL budget, not just the athletic department budget.

These numbers can be deceiving given the relative size of the institutions. Football at Lafayette represents 3.9% of the total operating expenses in 2017, while at Georgetown it was 0.17%.

[Go...gate]

These numbers can be deceiving given the relative size of the institutions. Football at Lafayette represents 3.9% of the total operating expenses in 2017, while at Georgetown it was 0.17%.

Lack of scholarships makes a material difference in that regard.

[Go...gate]

Correct, huge difference between taking on an Associate Member, a three year commitment that must be renewed, compared to a Full Member which is essentially permanent (unless the school chooses to leave). Towson was always viewed as a temporary, expedient solution for both parties. Hofstra was judged against a much higher standard in determining if they should be extended full membership.

It must have been quite a high standard.

[ngineer]

Never made sense to me how the PL would turn away Hofstra but would then somehow accept Towson State. Especially since Hofstra wanted in for all sports.

Couple things. First, at the time, I think the "Council" looked down no Hofstra and did not want them for all-sports. However, Towson only was looking for the place-holder league until they had their act ready to move on to the CAA. Therefore, the Council was willing to "put up" with Towson knowing it was only short-term. In retrospect, a mistake in light of current options. Of course, the ride to Hempstead is not fun, either!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Couple things. First, at the time, I think the "Council" looked down no Hofstra and did not want them for all-sports. However, Towson only was looking for the place-holder league until they had their act ready to move on to the CAA. Therefore, the Council was willing to "put up" with Towson knowing it was only short-term. In retrospect, a mistake in light of current options. Of course, the ride to Hempstead is not fun, either!

How much did Towson's ties to the old East Coast Conference have in their addition as an associate member for football? I'm pretty sure the PL didn't sponsor bball until 1990 or 1991. The familiarity with the Tigers athletic department had to be important. Who was in the ECC? Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Drexel, Rider and Towson? Was it an all-sports conference? I remember the '88 title over Towson and very little beyond that.

The PL loves to tout their academic pedigree but the fact remains that prior to the league's formation its member's really didn't discriminate who they kept company with athletically. If anything, geography seemed to matter most.

[RichH2]

How much did Towson's ties to the old East Coast Conference have in their addition as an associate member for football? I'm pretty sure the PL didn't sponsor bball until 1990 or 1991. The familiarity with the Tigers athletic department had to be important. Who was in the ECC? Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Drexel, Rider and Towson? Was it an all-sports conference? I remember the '88 title over Towson and very little beyond that.

The PL loves to tout their academic pedigree but the fact remains that prior to the league's formation its member's really didn't discriminate who they kept company with athletically. If anything, geography seemed to matter most.
The academic discrimination started with Likins and Brooks listening to the Ivies. Association withe Ivies seemed a great move up. Didnt quite work out as they anticipated at least athletically. Back in my day( said my old codger voice xlolx) we played a few Ivies but our group was Lehigh,Bucknell,Pards,UD, Gettysburg and Rutgers.

[DFW HOYA]

Lack of scholarships makes a material difference in that regard.

If Georgetown had a $6M football budget the percentage would only jump to 0.54%.

[Go...gate]

If Georgetown had a $6M football budget the percentage would only jump to 0.54%.

Interesting.

[PAllen]

If Georgetown had a $6M football budget the percentage would only jump to 0.54%.

Not too many Medical Schools in the PL.

Again, GU could dominate if they chose to. They choose not to.

[aceinthehole]

How much did Towson's ties to the old East Coast Conference have in their addition as an associate member for football? I'm pretty sure the PL didn't sponsor bball until 1990 or 1991. The familiarity with the Tigers athletic department had to be important. Who was in the ECC? Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Drexel, Rider and Towson? Was it an all-sports conference? I remember the '88 title over Towson and very little beyond that.

The PL loves to tout their academic pedigree but the fact remains that prior to the league's formation its member's really didn't discriminate who they kept company with athletically. If anything, geography seemed to matter most.

Although it has roots as the the 'University Division' of the Middle Atlantic Conference, the East Coast Conference officially began play in 1974 with 12 members:

American
Bucknell
Delaware
Drexel
Hofstra
LaSalle
Lafayette
Lehigh
Rider
St. Joseph's
Temple
West Chester

St. Joseph's, Temple, and West Chester left after the end of the 1982 season, and were replaced by Towson, dropping the league to 10 members.

Over the next 2 season, LaSalle and American left, and the league shrunk to 8 schools.

When Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh left after the 1989 season to start the Patriot League, Central Connecticut and UMBC were added as replacements.

Then Delaware and Drexel left for the North Atlantic Conference following the 1990 season and were replaced by Buffalo and Brooklyn College.

The season after that, Rider, Towson, and UMBC left for other conferences and Brooklyn dropped D-I athletics. With just 3 "members" (Buffalo, CCSU, and Hofstra) they played as Independents for the 1992-93 season.

Chicago State, Northeastern Illinois, and Troy joined the remaining 3 schools for the final season of the ECC in 1993-94.

The remaining members of the ECC (except Hofstra), were absorbed by the Mid-Continent Conference for the 1994-95 season.

[DFW HOYA]

What's wrong? Here is the Homecoming crowd at Lafayette today.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/lafayette_402.jpg
http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sprots/images/lafayette_402.jpg

[bulldog10jw]

What's wrong? Here is the Homecoming crowd at Lafayette today.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/lafayette_402.jpg
http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sprots/images/lafayette_402.jpg

Should have scheduled a Trump rally

[Sader87]

I know some are of the belief that attendance isn't down in the PL (thread on this recently)...but going strictly on the "eyeball test,"....it seems way down all ovah the league.

[PAllen]

I know some are of the belief that attendance isn't down in the PL (thread on this recently)...but going strictly on the "eyeball test,"....it seems way down all ovah the league.

Lehigh used to sellout Goodman for regular season games (non-Lafayette games). Now it's a struggle to get 2/3 full for Lehigh/Lafayette.

[Go Green]

I know some are of the belief that attendance isn't down in the PL (thread on this recently)...but going strictly on the "eyeball test,"....it seems way down all ovah the league.

The Ivy feels your pain.

[DFW HOYA]

https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1051859620745175040

[Franks Tanks]

I know some are of the belief that attendance isn't down in the PL (thread on this recently)...but going strictly on the "eyeball test,"....it seems way down all ovah the league.

That’s the truth. Attendance at Lafayette games have been terrible for 3-4 years now. We got 10k for an epic game with Colgate in 2009. Homecoming and Family weekend games routinely drew 7-9k from 2006 (when the stadium was renovated) until 2013 or so. There may have been 3k in the stands on Saturday. The last Lehigh game at home wasn’t even sold out, and 2018 will be the same. People are not interested in watching losing and extremely boring football.

I myself usd to go to 3-4 games a year. I haven’t been to fisher yet this year, and will most likely only at attend the Lehigh game. I can’t watch anymore.

[ngineer]

Lehigh used to sellout Goodman for regular season games (non-Lafayette games). Now it's a struggle to get 2/3 full for Lehigh/Lafayette.

Lehigh has sold out Goodman once since it opened for a non-Lafayette game with slightly over 16,000. It was a Parents Weekend game against Bucknell on a gorgeous October afternoon and Lehigh was having a great year. Even the first game played at Goodman was not a sellout with approximately 13,000 in attendance.

[ngineer]

I know some are of the belief that attendance isn't down in the PL (thread on this recently)...but going strictly on the "eyeball test,"....it seems way down all ovah the league.

Lehigh's announce crowd at the Fordham game was about 4,800. Given the rain up until 12 noon, probably a few decided to stay away, but likely wouldn't have hit 6,000.

[Model Citizen]

Lehigh fans,

1. On a scale of Rare-to-Well Done, how cooked is Coen's goose? Will he coach Lehigh in 2019?

2. Given Valparaiso's slow start (related to QB injury), is Dave Cecchini still on anyone's list? Valpo wasn't the Pioneer team that beat YSU, but they beat the Pioneer team that beat YSU. xrotatehx

[Go...gate]

Lehigh has sold out Goodman once since it opened for a non-Lafayette game with slightly over 16,000. It was a Parents Weekend game against Bucknell on a gorgeous October afternoon and Lehigh was having a great year. Even the first game played at Goodman was not a sellout with approximately 13,000 in attendance.

Not even that 43-42 classic with Holy Cross in '91? I was there - stands (and the seating area in the end zone) were packed. With the exception of the 1973 Sugar Bowl when ND edged Alabama 24 - 23, best College Football game I have seen in my lifetime.

[Go Green]

Lehigh has sold out Goodman once since it opened for a non-Lafayette game with slightly over 16,000. It was a Parents Weekend game against Bucknell on a gorgeous October afternoon and Lehigh was having a great year. Even the first game played at Goodman was not a sellout with approximately 13,000 in attendance.

I could have sworn the 1991 game against Dartmouth was a sellout.

But nope-- only 12,000.

Oh well. It *looked* full from the sidelines! :)

[Sader87]

I'd be curious what the highest attended HC PL game ws/is. Probably a Homecoming game against someone...but none have been close to selling out the revamped (23,500) in 1986 Fitton Field. Probably in the 15K or so range.

Colgate-HC did draw around 22K in 1983 (pre-PL) as both teams were in the Top 5 1-AA polls at the time....a 21-18 HC W btw xdrunkyx

[ngineer]

Lehigh fans,

1. On a scale of Rare-to-Well Done, how cooked is Coen's goose? Will he coach Lehigh in 2019?

2. Given Valparaiso's slow start (related to QB injury), is Dave Cecchini still on anyone's list? Valpo wasn't the Pioneer team that beat YSU, but they beat the Pioneer team that beat YSU. xrotatehx

Dave is a quality guy with great experience over his past 20 years. He has made a moribund program at Valpo have a pulse, again. Projects like that can take 5-7 years (see Lehigh 1962-69)

[ngineer]

Not even that 43-42 classic with Holy Cross in '91? I was there - stands (and the seating area in the end zone) were packed. With the exception of the 1973 Sugar Bowl when ND edged Alabama 24 - 23, best College Football game I have seen in my lifetime.

Nope. There have been a number of games with very good crowds, but not sell outs other than the Bucknell game (think it was in the late 90's). The Bucknell game was like 16,500. The largest crowd ever at Goodman was 19,100 or so against Lafayette, I think in '91. They brought in extra bleachers to fill in on the ends of the upper level on both sides and above the grass horseshoe. Crowd control issues with, what was then the "usual" post game melee put a stop to the overflow seating.

But it definitely was one of the most exciting games I ever saw, too. Hard to believe it was 7-6 at halftime.xrotatehx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The official attendance at that 1991 HC/Lehigh game was 14,055, and I think one of the major, undocumented reasons why it was so well attended was that there were huge numbers of Woostah fans that came down to watch that game. I was up in one of the student sections and it was wall to wall people.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

There have been plenty of "big crowds" at Goodman in the past. The Colgate games in '98, '00, '02 and '04 all drew over 13k iirc.

[PAllen]

Lehigh has sold out Goodman once since it opened for a non-Lafayette game with slightly over 16,000. It was a Parents Weekend game against Bucknell on a gorgeous October afternoon and Lehigh was having a great year. Even the first game played at Goodman was not a sellout with approximately 13,000 in attendance.

Goodman capacity was 14000 when it opened. There were two games against Bucknell in the early/mid 90s listed as sellouts along with one other non-Lafayette (I want to say Colgate, but could be wrong). From 94-98 there were at least three regular season games that they brought in the extra bleachers above the grass slope. There was even talk in the 99-01 timeframe of expanding Goodman.
Today, they could demolish the visitor stands an few would notice.

[TheValleyRaider]

https://twitter.com/LFN/status/1051859620745175040

Why would we be happy? The rest of you are making us look bad xreadx

[Go...gate]

I'd be curious what the highest attended HC PL game ws/is. Probably a Homecoming game against someone...but none have been close to selling out the revamped (23,500) in 1986 Fitton Field. Probably in the 15K or so range.

Colgate-HC did draw around 22K in 1983 (pre-PL) as both teams were in the Top 5 1-AA polls at the time....a 21-18 HC W btw xdrunkyx

That was a terrific game and Fitton was definitely crowded. What was the previous capacity of Fitton?

[Sader87]

Roughly 25K....had bleachers in the now open end zone

[Go...gate]

Roughly 25K....has bleachers in the now open end zone

OK and thanks - I'm not going senile - I thought it was 26,000, not much less than Archbold Stadium at Syracuse. which seated roughly 28,000 without extra seating.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

OK and thanks - I'm not going senile - I thought it was 26,000, not much less than Archbold Stadium at Syracuse. which seated roughly 28,000 without extra seating.

The PL had 3 stadiums that were 1-A worthy when it was founded. Fitton Field, Taylor Stadium and Christy Matthewson all had 20k+ in 1986. I vaguely remember CMS when it had the seats in the horseshoe. If there was a temp bleacher in the other end zone at the time there had to be 22 or 23k seats. Taylor Stadium (with Temp bleachers) could easily have sat 25k+. Are there any historical records that show that largest crowd at Taylor? Did a Lafayette, Delaware or Rutgers game ever approach 30k?

How many did Fisher Field hold prior to Kirby? That had to be 25k+?

[Go...gate]

The PL had 3 stadiums that were 1-A worthy when it was founded. Fitton Field, Taylor Stadium and Christy Matthewson all had 20k+ in 1986. I vaguely remember CMS when it had the seats in the horseshoe. If there was a temp bleacher in the other end zone at the time there had to be 22 or 23k seats. Taylor Stadium (with Temp bleachers) could easily have sat 25k+. Are there any historical records that show that largest crowd at Taylor? Did a Lafayette, Delaware or Rutgers game ever approach 30k?

Taylor had to have 20,000+ for Lafayette back in the day.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Taylor had to have 20,000+ for Lafayette back in the day.

Are there any pics of Andy Kerr prior to the Dunlap Stands? I can't imagine what it would have looked like. I recall the Dunlap Stand being pretty new when I made my first trip to Colgate in '97.

[Bill]

All,

I'm enjoying the attendance discussion from "better days" for some of our teams. I was at most of the Lehigh games mentioned so far...and I wonder: How accurate do we really think Lehigh's count was? Back when the grass hill would be packed with students, do we really think all the students were accounted for? Other than the Lafayette games, whenever I went back to campus as a young alumni, I would just show my old school ID and get right in - and I don't always remember walking through a turnstile.

[ngineer]

Goodman capacity was 14000 when it opened. There were two games against Bucknell in the early/mid 90s listed as sellouts along with one other non-Lafayette (I want to say Colgate, but could be wrong). From 94-98 there were at least three regular season games that they brought in the extra bleachers above the grass slope. There was even talk in the 99-01 timeframe of expanding Goodman.
Today, they could demolish the visitor stands an few would notice.

Goodman is listed at 16,000 and nothing has changed to either grandstand since opening in 1988. Technically, you could say the capacity is about 20,000 with the grass horseshoe.

[ngineer]

Taylor had to have 20,000+ for Lafayette back in the day.

Taylor was odd because of the baseball section for which some seats were sold on the third base side of the stadium. Large wooden bleachers were erected from the 45 yard line into the eastern end zone, as the visitor's concrete grand stand stopped there due to "center field" for the baseball field. Somewhere i saw the permanent seating for Taylor listed at 17,500 for football but with the extra stands was probably in the 20K range.

[Go...gate]

Are there any pics of Andy Kerr prior to the Dunlap Stands? I can't imagine what it would have looked like. I recall the Dunlap Stand being pretty new when I made my first trip to Colgate in '97.

Not many. Fred Dunlap's office in Huntington Gym used to have a beautiful overhead photo of Andy Kerr Stadium from the 1977 Rutgers game, which was standing room only with auxiliary stands from Starr Rink installed in the end zones. Estimates of actual attendance that day range from 14,000 to 18,000, well beyond the stated capacity of 12,500. The last time I was up there a couple of years ago, the photo was gone but it may have been moved into the nearby lounge or otherwise relocated. Let me see if I can dig one up.

[ngineer]

Okay, Okay, I finally located the "official" publication that lists the top 10 Goodman Stadium crowds. Source: Lehigh's 2007 "Media Guide"--a beautiful publication that has been discontinued.
At p.48 "Top 10 Goodman Crowds": Non-Lafayette Games bolded.
1. 19,110 Lafayette 1991
2. 18,623 Lafayette 1989
3. 16,906 Bucknell 2000
4. 16,017 Lafayette 2005
5. 16,000 Lafayette 1999
5. 16,000 Lafayette 2003
7. 15,600 Lafayette 2001
8. 15,412 Lafayette 1995
9. 15,412 Lafayette 1993
10. 15,023 Colgate 2002

There is also a chart showing average and total attendance at Lehigh home games from 1988-2006 at Goodman: 18 year average of 10,279. Even the 'even numbered years' when The Rivalry is played at Lafayette, Lehigh usually averaged a little over 10,000, the peak being 1999-2001 when crowds averaged 12,000. Worst season in that 18 year span was 1990 with an average of only 7,986, which we'd love today. Lehigh also did not lose a home game from 1998 through 2001. Goodman, then, presented a home-field advantage. Lots of noise.

Research project over. I bless my wife for not having chucked the envelope containing these 'treasures'...

[ngineer]

..Chapter two---2006 Patriot League average attendance per same media guide:

1. Lehigh 9,160
2. Lafayette 8,336
3. Holy Cross 5,742
4. Bucknell 4,568
5. Fordham 3,723
6. Colgate 3,493
7. Georgetown 2,016

Top "Northeastern I-AA Attendance":
1. Delaware 21,825
2. Yale 18,562
3. Harvard 15,548
4. Princeton 12,220
5. Penn 12,021
6. UMass 11,663
7. Lehigh 9,160
8. Villanova 8,364

[PAllen]

Okay, Okay, I finally located the "official" publication that lists the top 10 Goodman Stadium crowds. Source: Lehigh's 2007 "Media Guide"--a beautiful publication that has been discontinued.
At p.48 "Top 10 Goodman Crowds": Non-Lafayette Games bolded.
1. 19,110 Lafayette 1991
2. 18,623 Lafayette 1989
3. 16,906 Bucknell 2000
4. 16,017 Lafayette 2005
5. 16,000 Lafayette 1999
5. 16,000 Lafayette 2003
7. 15,600 Lafayette 2001
8. 15,412 Lafayette 1995
9. 15,412 Lafayette 1993
10. 15,023 Colgate 2002

There is also a chart showing average and total attendance at Lehigh home games from 1988-2006 at Goodman: 18 year average of 10,279. Even the 'even numbered years' when The Rivalry is played at Lafayette, Lehigh usually averaged a little over 10,000, the peak being 1999-2001 when crowds averaged 12,000. Worst season in that 18 year span was 1990 with an average of only 7,986, which we'd love today. Lehigh also did not lose a home game from 1998 through 2001. Goodman, then, presented a home-field advantage. Lots of noise.

Research project over. I bless my wife for not having chucked the envelope containing these 'treasures'...

I gladly defer to your research (I looked quickly, but all they've published for the last few years has nothing on attendance, I wonder why) I do remember the extra bleachers in the mid-late 90s though as a vivid memory. I'm not saying they were filled, and the grass hill may have been closed at the time as well, but they were there for a few non-lafayette games.

[PAllen]

All,

I'm enjoying the attendance discussion from "better days" for some of our teams. I was at most of the Lehigh games mentioned so far...and I wonder: How accurate do we really think Lehigh's count was? Back when the grass hill would be packed with students, do we really think all the students were accounted for? Other than the Lafayette games, whenever I went back to campus as a young alumni, I would just show my old school ID and get right in - and I don't always remember walking through a turnstile.

Good point, as a student, my ID was never scanned and I didn't walk through any turnstile. That said, we're not talking about a 10K difference, but at least a couple of thousand, unless it was estimated into the count.

[PAllen]

Goodman is listed at 16,000 and nothing has changed to either grandstand since opening in 1988. Technically, you could say the capacity is about 20,000 with the grass horseshoe.

Goodman was listed as 14K it's first year, then 16K after. I'm not sure what changed. Maybe the grass counts as 2K or maybe they renumbered the benches to squeeze in a few more seats, but those are just guesses.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Goodman was listed as 14K it's first year, then 16K after. I'm not sure what changed. Maybe the grass counts as 2K or maybe they renumbered the benches to squeeze in a few more seats, but those are just guesses.

The top levels were missing their end sections. Butz Construction didn't get it done in time for the '88 season. I'm pretty sure the top and bottom sections were originally suppose to match up.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/pennsylvania/bethlehem_goodman1.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Taylor was odd because of the baseball section for which some seats were sold on the third base side of the stadium. Large wooden bleachers were erected from the 45 yard line into the eastern end zone, as the visitor's concrete grand stand stopped there due to "center field" for the baseball field. Somewhere i saw the permanent seating for Taylor listed at 17,500 for football but with the extra stands was probably in the 20K range.

The one listed capacity I found was 20k. The place was so cool! I remember it! This pic shows some temporary bleachers along the "away" side to extend the seating to the goal line. For Lafayette they put another one up in the end zone. Before fire codes you could have gotten close to 30k in there! Based on the cars and style of goalposts this pic has to be from the early to mid 70's?

https://lehighsports.com/images/2017/8/10/Taylor_Stadium_wideshot_71.jpg

[Go...gate]

The one listed capacity I found was 20k. The place was so cool! I remember it! This pic shows some temporary bleachers along the "away" side to extend the seating to the goal line. For Lafayette they put another one up in the end zone. Before fire codes you could have gotten close to 30k in there! Based on the cars and style of goalposts this pic has to be from the early to mid 70's?

https://lehighsports.com/images/2017/8/10/Taylor_Stadium_wideshot_71.jpg

GREAT picture of Taylor!

[ngineer]

I gladly defer to your research (I looked quickly, but all they've published for the last few years has nothing on attendance, I wonder why) I do remember the extra bleachers in the mid-late 90s though as a vivid memory. I'm not saying they were filled, and the grass hill may have been closed at the time as well, but they were there for a few non-lafayette games.

Yes, I remember those bleachers too. The were put up, originally, because the U had "liability concerns" about people on the hill and only cheap construction site fencing separating the fans from the field. With the stronger cyclone fencing put in, they reopened "the hill". No question they have stopped publishing the attendance figures. Probably stopped close to 8 years ago. Wish I had kept all those media guides over the years...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not many. Fred Dunlap's office in Huntington Gym used to have a beautiful overhead photo of Andy Kerr Stadium from the 1977 Rutgers game, which was standing room only with auxiliary stands from Starr Rink installed in the end zones. Estimates of actual attendance that day range from 14,000 to 18,000, well beyond the stated capacity of 12,500. The last time I was up there a couple of years ago, the photo was gone but it may have been moved into the nearby lounge or otherwise relocated. Let me see if I can dig one up.

This says a lot

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/colgatesports/imageproxy.php?url=http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n126/nyrtfleury014/Temporary/1977ColgateRutgersPlayersCrowd_zpsyoeafxoo.jpg

[ngineer]

GREAT picture of Taylor!

Fantastic pic of Taylor. I loved that stadium. Nothing like coming out of the tunnel. Probably a late 60's to mid 70's. They got rid of the baseball field in the late 70's and put in a parking lot and some trees. Sight lines were terrific and you sat right up to the field. The team benches were smack against the concrete wall of the first row. Reason Whitehead was relegated to the press box because of his "salty" language offending a number of the alums' wives! The "upper deck" on the home side was made of steel, and that is where the band and students sat stomping on the stands like hell to create a "locomotive sound" for the Engineers. Add to the fact that Jim Thorpe played on that field in 1912 with the famed Carlisle Indian School made being on the same turf special.

[ngineer]

The top levels were missing their end sections. Butz Construction didn't get it done in time for the '88 season. I'm pretty sure the top and bottom sections were originally suppose to match up.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/north_america/united_states/pennsylvania/bethlehem_goodman1.jpg

Yes, they never did match the upper level stands with the lower. Each side still is "missing" those two sectons on the north and south ends of the grandstand. I guess the design was for possible "future expansion"!!! Hah!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What this trip down memory lane fails to properly convey is the following: Much of this "golden era" of attendance came from visiting fans. Though Lehigh packed in a lot of home fans in the heyday, the amount of Lehigh fans, even at their peak, were never over (generously estimating) 10,000 fans. Where the best attended games came about is when there were a huge swath of travelling fans from Holy Cross, Colgate, etc., willing to spend an entire day to come over and watch a game. Even better is when there are full marching bands. That's 100-150 people right there to add to a fun college football atmosphere. We tend to forget that the success of Lehigh/Lafayette is that it is possible to find 6,000-8,000 diehards in the Lehigh Valley on both sides to come to see that game and are willing to "travel". Add the Marching 97 and some students and you have a sellout.

Lehigh is still a popular Northeast draw, I think, because they travel an above-average number of fans in general. Clearly it's not the same as it was in the early 2000s, even, but there are a lot of families, connected alumni, and the like that do make trips to see away games. Again, don't underestimate the band in that equation, too. I am pretty sure Penn was very happy with the 100 or so extra people in the band that came.

Right now there is this struggle for attention in living rooms everywhere. In the past if you wanted to watch a football game you pretty much had to go - watching on a cathode ray tube didn't really convey the whole experience. Now it's pretty easy to feel like you're a part of the action even though your butt is on the couch - through broadcasts, Twitter, etc. The modern challenge is to make an environment at your home stadium that is such an event that people find it superior to the couch experience. This isn't unique about Goodman, the PL or FCS. Alabama struggles with this, too.

[ngineer]

What this trip down memory lane fails to properly convey is the following: Much of this "golden era" of attendance came from visiting fans. Though Lehigh packed in a lot of home fans in the heyday, the amount of Lehigh fans, even at their peak, were never over (generously estimating) 10,000 fans. Where the best attended games came about is when there were a huge swath of travelling fans from Holy Cross, Colgate, etc., willing to spend an entire day to come over and watch a game. Even better is when there are full marching bands. That's 100-150 people right there to add to a fun college football atmosphere. We tend to forget that the success of Lehigh/Lafayette is that it is possible to find 6,000-8,000 diehards in the Lehigh Valley on both sides to come to see that game and are willing to "travel". Add the Marching 97 and some students and you have a sellout.

Lehigh is still a popular Northeast draw, I think, because they travel an above-average number of fans in general. Clearly it's not the same as it was in the early 2000s, even, but there are a lot of families, connected alumni, and the like that do make trips to see away games. Again, don't underestimate the band in that equation, too. I am pretty sure Penn was very happy with the 100 or so extra people in the band that came.

Right now there is this struggle for attention in living rooms everywhere. In the past if you wanted to watch a football game you pretty much had to go - watching on a cathode ray tube didn't really convey the whole experience. Now it's pretty easy to feel like you're a part of the action even though your butt is on the couch - through broadcasts, Twitter, etc. The modern challenge is to make an environment at your home stadium that is such an event that people find it superior to the couch experience. This isn't unique about Goodman, the PL or FCS. Alabama struggles with this, too.

Very true, but a fair number of Lehigh fans sit on the East Stands--especially in the second half of the season--in order to sit in the sun on a cool/cold day! No question there has been a culture change that has been felt everywhere. But when you're dealing with a small 'sample size' to begin with, a reduction of a few thousand is more noticeable then at the large factories.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This says a lot

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/colgatesports/imageproxy.php?url=http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n126/nyrtfleury014/Temporary/1977ColgateRutgersPlayersCrowd_zpsyoeafxoo.jpg

Sweet pic! The now away side looks like it did back in the day! Based on the uniforms and facemasks I'd say this from the late 70's, early 80's?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What this trip down memory lane fails to properly convey is the following: Much of this "golden era" of attendance came from visiting fans. Though Lehigh packed in a lot of home fans in the heyday, the amount of Lehigh fans, even at their peak, were never over (generously estimating) 10,000 fans. Where the best attended games came about is when there were a huge swath of travelling fans from Holy Cross, Colgate, etc., willing to spend an entire day to come over and watch a game. Even better is when there are full marching bands. That's 100-150 people right there to add to a fun college football atmosphere. We tend to forget that the success of Lehigh/Lafayette is that it is possible to find 6,000-8,000 diehards in the Lehigh Valley on both sides to come to see that game and are willing to "travel". Add the Marching 97 and some students and you have a sellout.

Lehigh is still a popular Northeast draw, I think, because they travel an above-average number of fans in general. Clearly it's not the same as it was in the early 2000s, even, but there are a lot of families, connected alumni, and the like that do make trips to see away games. Again, don't underestimate the band in that equation, too. I am pretty sure Penn was very happy with the 100 or so extra people in the band that came.

Right now there is this struggle for attention in living rooms everywhere. In the past if you wanted to watch a football game you pretty much had to go - watching on a cathode ray tube didn't really convey the whole experience. Now it's pretty easy to feel like you're a part of the action even though your butt is on the couch - through broadcasts, Twitter, etc. The modern challenge is to make an environment at your home stadium that is such an event that people find it superior to the couch experience. This isn't unique about Goodman, the PL or FCS. Alabama struggles with this, too.

Honestly, I never recall any of the visiting teams bringing enough fans to make a significant difference. The PL schools have historically traveled poorly. I remember being shocked how few people Colgate would bring to those late 90's, early 00's battle royals. Princeton has usually traveled the best but even then maybe 2-3k in a good year?

[DFW HOYA]

Honestly, I never recall any of the visiting teams bringing enough fans to make a significant difference. The PL schools have historically traveled poorly. I remember being shocked how few people Colgate would bring to those late 90's, early 00's battle royals. Princeton has usually traveled the best but even then maybe 2-3k in a good year?

To be fair, Princeton is just over an hour from Lehigh. It's three hours from Hamilton, four from Washington, and five from Worcester.

But road trips are not as popular even in the big schools. There are exceptions, however.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2_gF5BAKhU

[ngineer]

Honestly, I never recall any of the visiting teams bringing enough fans to make a significant difference. The PL schools have historically traveled poorly. I remember being shocked how few people Colgate would bring to those late 90's, early 00's battle royals. Princeton has usually traveled the best but even then maybe 2-3k in a good year?

Yes, outside of Lafayette, you really can't say many visiting teams brought many fans. The most, to my recall, was when we played Delaware. They brought 2-4K. I do recall JMU brought a very nice contingent for the 2004 playoff game (though I hate the memory!). There were also a lot more games with themes to bring back parents, family and alums: parent day, freshmen parents weekend..

[ngineer]

To be fair, Princeton is just over an hour from Lehigh. It's three hours from Hamilton, four from Washington, and five from Worcester.

But road trips are not as popular even in the big schools. There are exceptions, however.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2_gF5BAKhU

True, but I think many times more of the visiting fans are alums/friends with school connections. Hence, part of the reason Lehigh consistently has as many fans in aways stands as the home team. We have a lot of alums in NYC/PHI/DC areas who turnout.

[Sader87]

Yeah...the PL is a very tough league to travel well in....especially in HC's case in the sense that HC fans from the 1960s-1980s were used to "travelling" to exotic locales like Amherst, Newton, Hanovah, Providence, Storrs etc....Hamilton, NY might as well have been San Francisco to many HC football fans back then.

I think HC probably travelled OK in the early PL days (1986-91) when we were still doing very well but after that I'm sure it's been only a smattering of alums/fans at games particularly in Pennsylvania and Hamilton....probably more in DC and NYC with alums from there or living there now.

[Go...gate]

Sweet pic! The now away side looks like it did back in the day! Based on the uniforms and facemasks I'd say this from the late 70's, early 80's?

September 10, 1977. Colgate 23, Rutgers 0. Andy Kerr was sold out - stands brought in from the hockey rink to place in the end zones - and standing room was also sold. Estimates of attendance that day were as high as 18,000. Largest crowd in Colgate Football history. I was there with my father and brother. Just a wonderful day.

[Go...gate]

True, but I think many times more of the visiting fans are alums/friends with school connections. Hence, part of the reason Lehigh consistently has as many fans in the away stands as the home team. We have a lot of alums in NYC/PHI/DC areas who turnout.

Goodman Stadium is also a really nice place to watch a football game. Reminds me of the original Rutgers Stadium, which was built in a natural ravine.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yeah...the PL is a very tough league to travel well in....especially in HC's case in the sense that HC fans from the 1960s-1980s were used to "travelling" to exotic locales like Amherst, Newton, Hanovah, Providence, Storrs etc....Hamilton, NY might as well have been San Francisco to many HC football fans back then.

I think HC probably travelled OK in the early PL days (1986-91) when we were still doing very well but after that I'm sure it's been only a smattering of alums/fans at games particularly in Pennsylvania and Hamilton....probably more in DC and NYC with alums from there or living there now.

HC brought a very strong contingent in 1991! I remember that day/game like it was yesterday!

Liberty traveled really well in 2011. They literally brought a fullsize Liberty themed bounce house for the kids and set up a huge tent (county fair style). It was the most impressive traveling tailgate setup I've seen anywhere at the FCS level.

[Sader87]

I bet we drank more than the Liberty fans xdrunkyx

[PAllen]

Yes, outside of Lafayette, you really can't say many visiting teams brought many fans. The most, to my recall, was when we played Delaware. They brought 2-4K. I do recall JMU brought a very nice contingent for the 2004 playoff game (though I hate the memory!). There were also a lot more games with themes to bring back parents, family and alums: parent day, freshmen parents weekend..

The problem is not TV or the internet, it is the product on the field. Lehigh football used to be an engaging experience. I would trek the 3+ hrs a couple of times a year to see games at Goodman, plus see the L-L game, also add in 2-3 hr trips to see games at Penn, Princeton, Delaware... This year, I won't even "travel" the 25 minutes in to see them play at Georgetown. The football is terrible and there is no experience. It's not that I can watch the game on the internet (not even sure that's an option for a Georgetown game), I'll just be taking the family to do other things. Not because the other things weren't there before, I do it because Lehigh and PL football isn't what it was before and for most people isn't worth giving up a Saturday afternoon to even sit at home and watch.

[Go Green]

The problem is not TV or the internet, it is the product on the field. .


Dartmouth has been having its most impressive season in decades, and our attendance has still noticeably dropped from even a few years ago.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dartmouth has been having its most impressive season in decades, and our attendance has still noticeably dropped from even a few years ago.

Princeton has probably their best team in several decades, has a fun, exciting offense, and the announced attendance at the Lehigh game was 1,013.

[PAllen]

Dartmouth has been having its most impressive season in decades, and our attendance has still noticeably dropped from even a few years ago.

But those fans aren't foregoing the game to tune in at home, they are off doing other things.

[Go...gate]

Princeton has probably their best team in several decades, has a fun, exciting offense, and the announced attendance at the Lehigh game was 1,013.

That was disheartening. You could hear the coaches yelling from the sidelines.

[Go Green]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

Depending how the next few weeks go, I'll be sorely tempted to be one of those 10,000.

[Go...gate]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

I believe the game will draw well. A lot of Dartmouth alums in NYC and Central NJ. Dinky is temporarily out of service, but NJ Transit is running buses between Princeton Junction and Princeton.

[DFW HOYA]

What will it take to draw crowds like this in the future?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqelZZOSWPQ

[PAllen]

What will it take to draw crowds like this in the future?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqelZZOSWPQ

There have been equivalent crowds for Lehigh/Lafayette more recently then that. That said, I'm not sure those crowds are ever coming back. Lehigh's admin successfully destroyed the tailgate culture among students and young alumni. Now you have an entire generation for which going to a game wasn't an extended party and social event, but nothing more than a pain in the butt where you'd get harassed by campus PD even if you weren't doing anything wrong. That generation is lost, and much like other PL schools, Lehigh probably will never recover the fan base because of it.

[caribbeanhen]

nothing wrong at all, everything is normal

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

nothing wrong at all, everything is normal

What exactly is "normal"?
https://marching97.org/new/history/Delaware%20Blue%20Hen%20conducts%20the%20band%20at %20a%20Lehigh-UDell%20game.jpg

[caribbeanhen]

classic! thanks for posting that one

[DFW HOYA]

I posted a column about this subject and will repost a link here, but how about this one, small way to improve the PL fans: give students better seating options.

Look at the image below for Holy Cross student seats. If you put students in the worst seats in the stadium (e.g., lower 10 yard line), why would they bother to come? PL teams should put students at or near the the 50 yard line because, well, 1) it's their team and 2) there aren't that many high paying alumni left to displace. And, if they have a good time, maybe they return the favor as alumni.

http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/0/FF/FFWVQQCCBJYZIID.20161012211014.jpg

[Sader87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibhelv6bb2Q

Just found this randomly on youtube now...it's a home movie entitled "Holy Cross October 1965" but you can get an idea of the type of crowds HC got then...particularly at the 1:30 mark...the closed end zone at Fitton is completely full....that hasn't happened since BC 1986

[Bill]

Lehigh's admin successfully destroyed the tailgate culture among students and young alumni. Now you have an entire generation for which going to a game wasn't an extended party and social event, but nothing more than a pain in the butt where you'd get harassed by campus PD even if you weren't doing anything wrong. That generation is lost, and much like other PL schools, Lehigh probably will never recover the fan base because of it.

PAllen,
I couldn't agree with you more! I graduated in 93...and my perspective is from ex player, regular student (I did not play all 4 years), and later as a coach. Not only is that generation lost - so is my era as well. We saw the crazy good times turn into the more draconian scene. Should LU be concerned? I attended my 20th reunion...there were less than 50 people there. I went to my 25th this past summer - there were less than 20 TOTAL people from the entire class!!! Not only did they lose football fans, they lost thousands of potential donors. Lehigh may eventually regret how it lost several (if not more) classes of alumni.

[Ivytalk]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

It will, indeed. Maybe World can be pried out of his gin-besotted chair at Tiger Inn to make an appearance.

[Ivytalk]

Dartmouth has been having its most impressive season in decades, and our attendance has still noticeably dropped from even a few years ago.
So will you get 10,000 for the Harvard game on 10/27? At least a few Delaware Dartmouth alums are going up for it.

[bulldog10jw]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

What's a sellout, about 27k?

Princeton fans may come out of the woodwork. The best Yale Bowl crowd this century against a team other than Harvard was Princeton in 2006, over 40k.

I hope everyone is surprised by the high attendance.

[Sader87]

I posted a column about this subject and will repost a link here, but how about this one, small way to improve the PL fans: give students better seating options.

Look at the image below for Holy Cross student seats. If you put students in the worst seats in the stadium (e.g., lower 10 yard line), why would they bother to come? PL teams should put students at or near the the 50 yard line because, well, 1) it's their team and 2) there aren't that many high paying alumni left to displace. And, if they have a good time, maybe they return the favor as alumni.

http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/0/FF/FFWVQQCCBJYZIID.20161012211014.jpg

Agreed...asinine policy....students could actually sit wherevah they want at Fitton games today....back in the day, pre-1990 or so when a student section was kinda needed....it was in the lower part of Sections 7&8 near the band,cheerleadahs etc

[PAllen]

I posted a column about this subject and will repost a link here, but how about this one, small way to improve the PL fans: give students better seating options.

Look at the image below for Holy Cross student seats. If you put students in the worst seats in the stadium (e.g., lower 10 yard line), why would they bother to come? PL teams should put students at or near the the 50 yard line because, well, 1) it's their team and 2) there aren't that many high paying alumni left to displace. And, if they have a good time, maybe they return the favor as alumni.



Not sure if it is still the case, but when I was there, Lehigh didn't enforce the reserved seating unless it was the chairback section (Lehigh-Lafayette excluded). Students were supposed to sit in or near the endzones, but I and many other students filled in the lower section, home side, near the 50 yd line (Sections WH, WC, WR, WM and the equivalent on the East side were reserved then too. I was always in a seat 4 or 5 rows up (cant remember now) right on the aisle at the 50 (WE). On one occasion, a set of parents came and complained to the usher that I was in their seat (before even approaching me about it). He told them to sit in the row behind me. Everybody else figured it out and it was never an issue. I would have moved without hesitation if asked, but where I sat was low enough to the field, that there were usually at least a few empty seats around.

http://lehighsports.com/images/2017/9/21/L_Goodman_Seating_Chart.jpg

[PAllen]

Just saw this, so they may have gone back (now officially) to full GA outside of the chairbacks.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~inspo/football/imagemap/goodmaninteractive.html

[Go...gate]

Students tend to sit in the center of the Dunlap Stands at Colgate (perhaps some closer to the side of the field near the Sanford Field House/1965 Rink), but there are reserved seats in the center area as well.

[Go Green]

So will you get 10,000 for the Harvard game on 10/27? At least a few Delaware Dartmouth alums are going up for it.

I'd take the under on that. Would be delighted to be wrong.

Would also hope that those Dartmouth alums in Delaware are going to Princeton on November 3. :)

[RichH2]

Its always amuses me when I check in on a PL thread after a few days. Its practically never on the same topic as the thread title. We seem now to have moved on to fan attendance historically and now in the PL and Ivies. Love it.
My 2 cents. While Goodman is very nice and scenic, I have always preferred Taylor. Truly an odd stadium with a scenic view of the stacks. Viewing games however was great. You could usually find seats up near the press box. Rosie's was located just outside Taylor. Best of all it was a 5-10 minute walk to Taylor, all downhill. :)

[ngineer]

Not sure if it is still the case, but when I was there, Lehigh didn't enforce the reserved seating unless it was the chairback section (Lehigh-Lafayette excluded). Students were supposed to sit in or near the endzones, but I and many other students filled in the lower section, home side, near the 50 yd line (Sections WH, WC, WR, WM and the equivalent on the East side were reserved then too. I was always in a seat 4 or 5 rows up (cant remember now) right on the aisle at the 50 (WE). On one occasion, a set of parents came and complained to the usher that I was in their seat (before even approaching me about it). He told them to sit in the row behind me. Everybody else figured it out and it was never an issue. I would have moved without hesitation if asked, but where I sat was low enough to the field, that there were usually at least a few empty seats around.

http://lehighsports.com/images/2017/9/21/L_Goodman_Seating_Chart.jpg

My seats are in section WF...which I am thinking of changing on the metal sign to "WTF"....

[Go...gate]

What's a sellout, about 27k?

Princeton fans may come out of the woodwork. The best Yale Bowl crowd this century against a team other than Harvard was Princeton in 2006, over 40k.

I hope everyone is surprised by the high attendance.

27,000 is the capacity of the new Princeton Stadium.

A big Princeton-Dartmouth game is historically a very good draw. If the weather is good, I could see 12-15,000 - a good draw for Princeton in this day and age. I remember the 1965 game which decided the Lambert Trophy (both teams were undefeated) and drew 45,725 to Palmer Stadium. Paul Savidge, Princeton's Captain, broke his neck in that game, won by Dartmouth, 28-14.

[DFW HOYA]

I remember the 1965 game which decided the Lambert Trophy (both teams were undefeated) and drew 45,725 to Palmer Stadium. Paul Savidge, Princeton's Captain, broke his neck in that game, won by Dartmouth, 28-14.

Metaphorically speaking, where are those fans today? Are they at the Rutgers game instead (not likely)? Are they watching Netflix? Did they all move south and their grandkids now sing "Dixieland Delight" in Tuscaloosa?

[bulldog10jw]

Metaphorically speaking, where are those fans today? Are they at the Rutgers game instead (not likely)? Are they watching Netflix? Did they all move south and their grandkids now sing "Dixieland Delight" in Tuscaloosa?

Dead

[Go Green]

27,000 is the capacity of the new Princeton Stadium.

A big Princeton-Dartmouth game is historically a very good draw. If the weather is good, I could see 12-15,000 - a good draw for Princeton in this day and age. I remember the 1965 game which decided the Lambert Trophy (both teams were undefeated) and drew 45,725 to Palmer Stadium. Paul Savidge, Princeton's Captain, broke his neck in that game, won by Dartmouth, 28-14.

24,120 went to Palmer in 1992, which was the last time that Dartmouth and Princeton played a de facto championship game in New Jersey (Princeton already had a share of the title assured).

Dartmouth won, 34-20, to secure a third straight Ivy title (a feat that has only been equaled once--by Harvard--since).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My father, class of 1961, still goes up to one Dartmouth home game a year to hang out with his pals and other Dartmouth folks. He and my mother still make a weekend of it (and in fact are headed up there next weekend). Hoping he'll be able to continue to make a whole lot more of them.

One of my fondest childhood memories is going to a Dartmouth/Yale game at the Yale Bowl. It wasn't a sellout but to me, it basically was. I wrote about it a couple of years ago.

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/09/lehigh-at-yale-game-preview-going-back.html

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

[Bisonoline]

My father, class of 1961, still goes up to one Dartmouth home game a year to hang out with his pals and other Dartmouth folks. He and my mother still make a weekend of it (and in fact are headed up there next weekend). Hoping he'll be able to continue to make a whole lot more of them.

One of my fondest childhood memories is going to a Dartmouth/Yale game at the Yale Bowl. It wasn't a sellout but to me, it basically was. I wrote about it a couple of years ago.

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/09/lehigh-at-yale-game-preview-going-back.html

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

Well Chuck Ive got to admit that was very well written and reminded me of when my dad took me to my first Big Ten Football game with Iowa back around 1960.

[Sader87]

Metaphorically speaking, where are those fans today? Are they at the Rutgers game instead (not likely)? Are they watching Netflix? Did they all move south and their grandkids now sing "Dixieland Delight" in Tuscaloosa?

While sadly, as bulldog noted, many at that 1965 Dartmouth-Princeton game have left this mortal coil...the many that remain in New Jersey (and the Northeast in general) just don't look at/see the 2018 Dartmouth-Princeton game in the same light.

Different world obviously....Ivy League football isn't seen as playing at the highest level of college football anymore, the student bodies and then alumni of both schools in 1965 were much more enculturated in football being an important part of the school's identity (light years more than today anyway)....and of course all the other reasons we've gone ovah here vis a vis sinking attendance: tv/internet availability, changing culture in terms of family responsibilities on Saturdays, crackdown on tailgating etc etc etc

[Go...gate]

Here is another sobering fact: That 1965 Princeton squad that lost to Dartmouth had fifty (50) captains of high-school football teams. Not only a measure of the kids recruited and enrolled by the Tigers but also a measure of the popularity of High School/Prep School Football. Every school played football, basketball and baseball, with other "schoolboy" sports having a far lower profile.

[World]

If there is decent weather in Princeton on November 3rd, and the D-P game doesn't at least draw 10,000... that will really be sad.

Yep, very sad

[World]

It will, indeed. Maybe World can be pried out of his gin-besotted chair at Tiger Inn to make an appearance.

Hey, where did the Tiger Inn name come from?

[DFW HOYA]

Different world obviously....Ivy League football isn't seen as playing at the highest level of college football anymore, the student bodies and then alumni of both schools in 1965 were much more enculturated in football being an important part of the school's identity (light years more than today anyway)....and of course all the other reasons we've gone ovah here vis a vis sinking attendance: tv/internet availability, changing culture in terms of family responsibilities on Saturdays, crackdown on tailgating etc etc etc

Why do many of these same factors not hurt football attendance south of the Mason Dixon Line (Washington DC excepted)?

[Sader87]

Why do many of these same factors not hurt football attendance south of the Mason Dixon Line (Washington DC excepted)?

I think they have...just hasn't been as precipitous as Ivy League attendance 1965 to 2018. No league in the country has lost overall attendance in that time period like the Ivy League.

Attendance in the South outside of the P5 schools is similar to most other parts of the country.

[bulldog10jw]

My father, class of 1961, still goes up to one Dartmouth home game a year to hang out with his pals and other Dartmouth folks. He and my mother still make a weekend of it (and in fact are headed up there next weekend). Hoping he'll be able to continue to make a whole lot more of them.

One of my fondest childhood memories is going to a Dartmouth/Yale game at the Yale Bowl. It wasn't a sellout but to me, it basically was. I wrote about it a couple of years ago.

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/09/lehigh-at-yale-game-preview-going-back.html

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, LFN.

I was at that game,of course. If I remember correctly, Yale had a lucky play to even get close enough so there would be a goal line stand. That's what caused Jake to make his "lucky" comment. His exact quote was (as exact as I can remember 40 years later), "we took that Yale luck and stuffed it". I think the "lucky" play was a tipped ball caught by Spagnola and run about 50 yards down inside the Dartmouth 10, but I'm not 100% sure.

It was also Yale's only Ivy loss that year.

As unusual as a 3-0 game was, even in 1977, just two years later in 1979, Yale beat Dartmouth in the Bowl. The score was 3-0

[ngineer]

Reminds me in away of what may get replicated this year in The Rivalry. In 1964, Lehigh and Lafayette met in Game #100. Both teams entered, I think with only one win each. Sure enough, each team missed it's extra point and the final score was 6-6. This year for Game #154, there is a decent possibility of both teams entering the game with one win apiece. While there cannot be tie, because the game will be at Fisher Field, which has lights, the possibility of endless futility leading to a record lenght of OT looms on the horizion! xeyebrowxxrotatehxxdrunkyx

[DFW HOYA]

Let's get this back on track.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2018/10/whats-wrong-with-patriot-league.html

[ngineer]

Let's get this back on track.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2018/10/whats-wrong-with-patriot-league.html

A very well thought out article. Wish I had the time to dive in like that. Yes, the PL has to "get off the pot" on the football issue. Who's going to supply the enema??xsmiley_wix

[Go Green]

I'm having a very hard time seeing the PL tell non-football members to add football.

I'm sure BU, AU, and Loyola will tell the PL to just call up Marist or Monmouth if they want another football member.

[RichH2]

Let's get this back on track.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2018/10/whats-wrong-with-patriot-league.html

Excellent article DFW. Cogently presents the issues that most agree the PL must address now rather than later.

[RichH2]

I'm having a very hard time seeing the PL tell non-football members to add football.

I'm sure BU, AU, and Loyola will tell the PL to just call up Marist or Monmouth if they want another football member.

Agreed. Those 3 will not add football. DFW's point is well taken. Expansion is a necessity at some point. Right now I dont see any school interested. PL, at least as to football, is not an attractive destination. Up to us to remedy our issues.

[aceinthehole]

Let's get this back on track.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2018/10/whats-wrong-with-patriot-league.html

Excellent article DFW - but I do have to take issue with one part:


The league needs to give serious thought to a conference-wide scheduling philosophy, such as the 1-2-2- model: one FBS/I-A game annually (on the road), two Ivy or CAA games (home and away) and two games against smaller opponents (home only) . A school like Lehigh, for example, could schedule at Army, home Princeton, at Villanova, and then two home games with Marist and Bryant. That assures not less than six home games every year even with a I-A guarantee game, and avoids a 0-fer in non-conference play.

The Patriot is no longer getting Home-only deals with the NEC. Sure, that was the case until about 2010 or so - but now all Patriot League teams have to sign 1-for-1 deals with NEC programs. I don't think the Pioneer is taking $$ games from Patriot League teams either. So if you want guaranteed home games without a return, you are likely looking a D-II opponents.

Bryant already gets home games with Bucknell, Fordham, and Holy Cross.

CCSU also gets home games with Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Fordham, Penn, Dartmouth, and Columbia.

Sacred Heart has received home games from Bucknell, Dartmouth, and Cornell.

Even Marist has received home games from Georgetown, Bucknell, Columbia, Sacred Heart, and Bryant

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

My father, class of 1961, still goes up to one Dartmouth home game a year to hang out with his pals and other Dartmouth folks. He and my mother still make a weekend of it (and in fact are headed up there next weekend). Hoping he'll be able to continue to make a whole lot more of them.

One of my fondest childhood memories is going to a Dartmouth/Yale game at the Yale Bowl. It wasn't a sellout but to me, it basically was. I wrote about it a couple of years ago.

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/09/lehigh-at-yale-game-preview-going-back.html

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

I'd love for Lehigh to play at Dartmouth again! The last time they venture to Hanover was in 1999 iirc. It was the week before the big win over Delaware at The Tub. An early fall trip up there for a football game and a round of golf at Hanover Country Club would be tough to beat!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's get this back on track.

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2018/10/whats-wrong-with-patriot-league.html

What a way to get it on track. Thoughts:

* I tackled some of these same issues last year in a blog posting as well: https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2017/10/an-lfn-investigation-whats-wrong-with.html. DFW's is more extensive than mine, but I think together they cover as close to the whole picture as we're going to get.

* The words that I wish I came up with, but DFW did are these: "The league as a whole, as a competitive entity, as a collective entity--needs work. It falsely assumed that 60 grants would be all it needed. Now, it's a damaged brand in football circles and a group where not everyone is on the same page." , The underlined part, I think, is the most critical takeaway I think there is from this whole episode. It really seems like the thought was scholarships would be offered - and not only would it be SO powerful that it would make powerhouses, the league had to devise other straightjackets to make sure nobody got too powerful.

* I would add to DFW's analysis my part of the equation, the smaller roster sizes. All he says is true about the Ivy League restricting supply and recruiting walk-on football players with free tuition. Add to that the NEC poaching possible Patriot League players by not limiting themselves unnecessarily with the AI. Add to that the fact that need-based aid doesn't make it into the formula - while in the NEC, it does, and in the Ivy League, it's not a consideration because they are "above the scholarship rules" because everyone is scholarshipped. But when you add to that the roster size restrictions - that's the additional lock that really is crushing.

* Once you've given out all your scholarship money, you are giving the very limited number of walk-on possibilities to completely unrecruited football players possibly paying full tuition - and then capping the number at 90, in August, with sophomores to seniors. IMO it is the final straightjacket that has wrecked the league - all of them are straightjackets, but that last one is the one that shows up on gameday the most. As everyone knows, nobody goes into the season with all 60 scholarships available on gameday - kids quit, get hurt, etc. Some of the walk-ons behind them can become good or great PL players, but there aren't enough of them and it's not easy for them to get identified and get onto the gameday roster.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but this is a good starting point.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm having a very hard time seeing the PL tell non-football members to add football.

I'm sure BU, AU, and Loyola will tell the PL to just call up Marist or Monmouth if they want another football member.

BU certainly will, but will Loyola and American?

[Go Green]

- - - Updated - - -



BU certainly will, but will Loyola and American?

I've never been to Loyola's campus. But I'm very familiar with AU.

There's nowhere for AU to physically play football unless they kick off their soccer or field hockey teams from their respective field, or tear down some existing building.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've never been to Loyola's campus. But I'm very familiar with AU.

There's nowhere for AU to physically play football unless they kick off their soccer or field hockey teams from their respective field, or tear down some existing building.

https://media.giphy.com/media/VLoN2iW8ii3wA/giphy.gifhttp://media.tumblr.com/37579093b57e769ef1a3e58c299600ad/tumblr_inline_n63xl9hlNn1qaodut.gif

[aceinthehole]

I've never been to Loyola's campus. But I'm very familiar with AU.

There's nowhere for AU to physically play football unless they kick off their soccer or field hockey teams from their respective field, or tear down some existing building.

The is no way AU can or will sponsor football with its current student profile.

However, their best for a start-up facility would probably be down the street at Woodrow Wilson High School. With a small investment in some additional bleachers, it would be better than what Georgetown has going on right now.

[Go Green]

However, their best for a start-up facility would probably be down the street at Woodrow Wilson High School. With a small investment in some additional bleachers, it would be better than what Georgetown has going on right now.

Absolutely!

Except for the fact that Wilson's football team needs that field, too.

:)

[The Boogie Down]

Before "we get back on track," and w/all due respect to DFW's great piece, let's yet AGAIN clear some things up...


The official attendance at that 1991 HC/Lehigh game was 14,055, and I think one of the major, undocumented reasons why it was so well attended was that there were huge numbers of Woostah fans that came down to watch that game. I was up in one of the student sections and it was wall to wall people.

1) Dude, it's pronounced Wissstah.



Different world obviously....Ivy League football isn't seen as playing at the highest level of college football anymore, the student bodies and then alumni of both schools in 1965 were much more enculturated in football being an important part of the school's identity (light years more than today anyway)....and of course all the other reasons we've gone ovah here vis a vis sinking attendance: tv/internet availability, changing culture in terms of family responsibilities on Saturdays, crackdown on tailgating etc etc etc

2-A) Yes, different world. But this is particularly true when talking about the Ancient VIII. Uniquely true even. Yale, Princeton and Harvard (in that order) completely and totally dominated late 19th century football for a 30 year stretch that we'll never see 3 schools again do. It wasn't until the turn of the century when they received any challenge whatsoever. Since then the Ancient VIII level of play has continued to drop like a Coney Island ride. And it did so for 9 straight decades!!!

Counting shared National Championships:
The 1900s featured 3 chips for Yale, 2 for Princeton and 2 for Penn.
The 1910s featured 4 chips for Harvard, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Cornell.
The 1920s featured 2 chips for Cornell, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Yale.
0 National Championships since but:
The 1930s featured (by my count) about 4 teams finishing in the Top-20 starting with the 1935 UPI poll. 1 Rose Bowl win before the polls.
The 1940s featured (by my count) about 11/12 teams finishing in the Top-20. 7/8 for Penn, 4 for everyone else.
The 1950s featured (by my count) 3 teams (all Princeton) finishing in the Top-20. Plus forming the league and creating their own bubble.
The 1960s featured (by my count) 2 teams finishing in the Top-20. (Coaches poll since for a few years AP only had a Top-10.)
The 1970s featured (by my count) 1 team finishing in the Top-20.
The 1980s featured I-AA football and (by my guesstimation) lots and lots of losses to what would become PL teams.

Notice a trend?

From the 1900s until the 1990s every decade was worse than the previous one. By the early '90s some Ivy schools were even losing to Fordham teams that were soooo bad, they were still winless in the PL at the time!

Think the clear and steady 90 year drop from being the best collection of I-A teams ever to being a below average I-AA league might have something to do with a drop in attendance?

2-B) No, none of the rest has to do w/sinking attendance. Not the Predicta swivel flat screen TV. Not Prodigy Internet. Not ESPN+. In fact, as I've already showed in a previous thread, most leagues are drawing what they were drawing a generation ago. Maybe memories say crowds were bigger back then. Maybe there was more local press creating more of an "event" back then. Still, official NCAA attendance numbers say things are pretty much the same now as they were back then.



Why do many of these same factors not hurt football attendance south of the Mason Dixon Line (Washington DC excepted)?

3) With all due respect to a Friday Night HS football/Saturday afternoon college football culture which exists in the South like it doesn't in the Northeast, none of the above mentioned factors have hurt attendance anywhere. Bad play hurts. Bad weather hurts. Losing "big" teams to another level of play hurts. Tailgating rules do not hurt.

Proving my point, since the Dayton Rule came into effect and shaping I-AA/FBS to what it is today the SoCon has (unlike the PL) indeed lost a lot in terms of attendance. But that's because they've lost Marshall, Georgia Southern AND Appalachian State!!! If the Ivies saw Harvard, Yale and Princeton all make the jump to FBS, I highly doubt people would be pinning an attendance drop on cultural changes.

As for the PL, again, league attendance has not really dropped since 1993. In fact, the "Core-4" hasn't seen much change since at least 1953!

Let's take a look:

Team.................1953 Attendance......1993 Attendance............2017 Attendance
Bucknell............ 5,000.......................5,890................. ..........2,886
Colgate..............3,865.......................2 ,947...........................4,788
Fordham............(16,275)..................2,792 ...........................4,681
Holy Cross.........(12,167)...................5,892.... ......................7,200
Georgetown.......(X)...........................(1, 096)........................2,169
Lafayette............6,000......................6, 188...........................5,589
Lehigh................7,023.....................10 ,067..........................7,138

Notes: While the "Core-4" were playing at a smaller level, Holy Cross and Fordham were still playing an FBS schedule in 1953. Georgetown had been playing one too up until 1950 when they dropped football. Fordham dropped football after the 1954 season. Fordham returned to D-I (as an FCS) in 1989. Georgetown was forced in by the Dayton Rule in 1993 but did not become a PL member until 2001.

Extras: Thanks to a bunch of "Official NCAA Football Records Books" I have from the '90s, and the Internet thereafter, I can probably do an entire year-by-year thread on PL attendance since the 1990 season. Maybe in the off-season if anyone is interested. The 1953 numbers come from an official NCAA book I recently purchased online b/c they had a Columbia dude (Dick Carr) on the cover. That cover aside, the Ancient VIII was already a bit player by then.

[Go...gate]

Before "we get back on track," and w/all due respect to DFW's great piece, let's yet AGAIN clear some things up...



1) Dude, it's pronounced Wissstah.



2-A) Yes, different world. But this is particularly true when talking about the Ancient VIII. Uniquely true even. Yale, Princeton and Harvard (in that order) completely and totally dominated late 19th century football for a 30 year stretch that we'll never see 3 schools again do. It wasn't until the turn of the century when they received any challenge whatsoever. Since then the Ancient VIII level of play has continued to drop like a Coney Island ride. And it did so for 9 straight decades!!!

Counting shared National Championships:
The 1900s featured 3 chips for Yale, 2 for Princeton and 2 for Penn.
The 1910s featured 4 chips for Harvard, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Cornell.
The 1920s featured 2 chips for Cornell, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Yale.
0 National Championships since but:
The 1930s featured (by my count) about 4 teams finishing in the Top-20 starting with the 1935 UPI poll. 1 Rose Bowl win before the polls.
The 1940s featured (by my count) about 11/12 teams finishing in the Top-20. 7/8 for Penn, 4 for everyone else.
The 1950s featured (by my count) 3 teams (all Princeton) finishing in the Top-20. Plus forming the league and creating their own bubble.
The 1960s featured (by my count) 2 teams finishing in the Top-20. (Coaches poll since for a few years AP only had a Top-10.)
The 1970s featured (by my count) 1 team finishing in the Top-20.
The 1980s featured I-AA football and (by my guesstimation) lots and lots of losses to what would become PL teams.

Notice a trend?

From the 1900s until the 1990s every decade was worse than the previous one. By the early '90s some Ivy schools were even losing to Fordham teams that were soooo bad, they were still winless in the PL at the time!

Think the clear and steady 90 year drop from being the best collection of I-A teams ever to being a below average I-AA league might have something to do with a drop in attendance?

2-B) No, none of the rest has to do w/sinking attendance. Not the Predicta swivel flat screen TV. Not Prodigy Internet. Not ESPN+. In fact, as I've already showed in a previous thread, most leagues are drawing what they were drawing a generation ago. Maybe memories say crowds were bigger back then. Maybe there was more local press creating more of an "event" back then. Still, official NCAA attendance numbers say things are pretty much the same now as they were back then.




3) With all due respect to a Friday Night HS football/Saturday afternoon college football culture which exists in the South like it doesn't in the Northeast, none of the above mentioned factors have hurt attendance anywhere. Bad play hurts. Bad weather hurts. Losing "big" teams to another level of play hurts. Tailgating rules do not hurt.

Proving my point, since the Dayton Rule came into effect and shaping I-AA/FBS to what it is today the SoCon has (unlike the PL) indeed lost a lot in terms of attendance. But that's because they've lost Marshall, Georgia Southern AND Appalachian State!!! If the Ivies saw Harvard, Yale and Princeton all make the jump to FBS, I highly doubt people would be pinning an attendance drop on cultural changes.

As for the PL, again, league attendance has not really dropped since 1993. In fact, the "Core-4" hasn't seen much change since at least 1953!

Let's take a look:

Team.................1953 Attendance......1993 Attendance............2017 Attendance
Bucknell............ 5,000.......................5,890................. ..........2,886
Colgate..............3,865.......................2 ,947...........................4,788
Fordham............(16,275)..................2,792 ...........................4,681
Holy Cross.........(12,167)...................5,892.... ......................7,200
Georgetown.......(X)...........................(1, 096)........................2,169
Lafayette............6,000......................6, 188...........................5,589
Lehigh................7,023.....................10 ,067..........................7,138

Notes: While Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh were playing at a smaller level, Holy Cross, Fordham and Colgate were still playing an FBS schedule in 1953. Georgetown had been playing one too up until 1950 when they dropped football. Fordham dropped football after the 1954 season. Fordham returned to D-I (as an FCS) in 1989. Georgetown was forced in by the Dayton Rule in 1993 but did not become a PL member until 2001.

Extras: Thanks to a bunch of "Official NCAA Football Records Books" I have from the '90s, and the Internet thereafter, I can probably do an entire year-by-year thread on PL attendance since the 1990 season. Maybe in the off-season if anyone is interested. The 1953 numbers come from an official NCAA book I recently purchased online b/c they had a Columbia dude (Dick Carr) on the cover. That cover aside, the Ancient VIII was already a bit player by then.

Made one correction.

[PAllen]

Before "we get back on track," and w/all due respect to DFW's great piece, let's yet AGAIN clear some things up...



1) Dude, it's pronounced Wissstah.



2-A) Yes, different world. But this is particularly true when talking about the Ancient VIII. Uniquely true even. Yale, Princeton and Harvard (in that order) completely and totally dominated late 19th century football for a 30 year stretch that we'll never see 3 schools again do. It wasn't until the turn of the century when they received any challenge whatsoever. Since then the Ancient VIII level of play has continued to drop like a Coney Island ride. And it did so for 9 straight decades!!!

Counting shared National Championships:
The 1900s featured 3 chips for Yale, 2 for Princeton and 2 for Penn.
The 1910s featured 4 chips for Harvard, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Cornell.
The 1920s featured 2 chips for Cornell, 1 for Princeton and 1 for Yale.
0 National Championships since but:
The 1930s featured (by my count) about 4 teams finishing in the Top-20 starting with the 1935 UPI poll. 1 Rose Bowl win before the polls.
The 1940s featured (by my count) about 11/12 teams finishing in the Top-20. 7/8 for Penn, 4 for everyone else.
The 1950s featured (by my count) 3 teams (all Princeton) finishing in the Top-20. Plus forming the league and creating their own bubble.
The 1960s featured (by my count) 2 teams finishing in the Top-20. (Coaches poll since for a few years AP only had a Top-10.)
The 1970s featured (by my count) 1 team finishing in the Top-20.
The 1980s featured I-AA football and (by my guesstimation) lots and lots of losses to what would become PL teams.

Notice a trend?

From the 1900s until the 1990s every decade was worse than the previous one. By the early '90s some Ivy schools were even losing to Fordham teams that were soooo bad, they were still winless in the PL at the time!

Think the clear and steady 90 year drop from being the best collection of I-A teams ever to being a below average I-AA league might have something to do with a drop in attendance?

2-B) No, none of the rest has to do w/sinking attendance. Not the Predicta swivel flat screen TV. Not Prodigy Internet. Not ESPN+. In fact, as I've already showed in a previous thread, most leagues are drawing what they were drawing a generation ago. Maybe memories say crowds were bigger back then. Maybe there was more local press creating more of an "event" back then. Still, official NCAA attendance numbers say things are pretty much the same now as they were back then.




3) With all due respect to a Friday Night HS football/Saturday afternoon college football culture which exists in the South like it doesn't in the Northeast, none of the above mentioned factors have hurt attendance anywhere. Bad play hurts. Bad weather hurts. Losing "big" teams to another level of play hurts. Tailgating rules do not hurt.

Proving my point, since the Dayton Rule came into effect and shaping I-AA/FBS to what it is today the SoCon has (unlike the PL) indeed lost a lot in terms of attendance. But that's because they've lost Marshall, Georgia Southern AND Appalachian State!!! If the Ivies saw Harvard, Yale and Princeton all make the jump to FBS, I highly doubt people would be pinning an attendance drop on cultural changes.

As for the PL, again, league attendance has not really dropped since 1993. In fact, the "Core-4" hasn't seen much change since at least 1953!

Let's take a look:

Team.................1953 Attendance......1993 Attendance............2017 Attendance
Bucknell............ 5,000.......................5,890................. ..........2,886
Colgate..............3,865.......................2 ,947...........................4,788
Fordham............(16,275)..................2,792 ...........................4,681
Holy Cross.........(12,167)...................5,892.... ......................7,200
Georgetown.......(X)...........................(1, 096)........................2,169
Lafayette............6,000......................6, 188...........................5,589
Lehigh................7,023.....................10 ,067..........................7,138

Notes: While the "Core-4" were playing at a smaller level, Holy Cross and Fordham were still playing an FBS schedule in 1953. Georgetown had been playing one too up until 1950 when they dropped football. Fordham dropped football after the 1954 season. Fordham returned to D-I (as an FCS) in 1989. Georgetown was forced in by the Dayton Rule in 1993 but did not become a PL member until 2001.

Extras: Thanks to a bunch of "Official NCAA Football Records Books" I have from the '90s, and the Internet thereafter, I can probably do an entire year-by-year thread on PL attendance since the 1990 season. Maybe in the off-season if anyone is interested. The 1953 numbers come from an official NCAA book I recently purchased online b/c they had a Columbia dude (Dick Carr) on the cover. That cover aside, the Ancient VIII was already a bit player by then.

So at the previous bottom of the PL, Bucknell and Lehigh were drawing on average 50-100% more than today. I'd call that a difference.

[Sader87]

Maybe it's me but I just don't see the existential crisis for the PL to expand in football. There are really no schools out there that fit the profile athletically/academically.... and really, no big whoop.

Lose a playoff bid? Clutching my pearls....hardly anyone in the Northeast cares about the FCS playoffs.

7 teams is a good size...allows for varied OOC scheduling. Should Holy Cross want to play say Marist and Monmouth annually instead of Yale and UNH? I don't think so.

I highly doubt any of the PL membahs that don't have football will add/bring it back for a lot of reasons... each different for each institution.

[RichH2]

Pithy, terse, concise...... These are words that could never be used to describe a PL thread. xdrunkyx xnodx

[Go Green]

Should Holy Cross want to play say Marist and Monmouth annually instead of Yale and UNH? I don't think so.


Unless the PL implements some of the changes discussed in this thread, it is likely that HC can expect to lose most of the Yale/UNH contests for the foreseeable future.

[Sader87]

Maybe the Irish Catholic masochist in me...but I'd rather lose to teams of that ilk than play Marist and Monmouth annually in the PL

[Go Green]

Maybe the Irish Catholic masochist in me...but I'd rather lose to teams of that ilk than play Marist and Monmouth annually in the PL

Keep up the BC/UConn games as well, and your Irish Catholic Masochist self is in for a treat!!!

:)

[Sader87]

We lost 62-14 to BC this year....it was the best weekend for HC football in a long, long time.....we're an odd bunch, don't try and understand us xdrunkyx

[Bisonoline]

We lost 62-14 to BC this year....it was the best weekend for HC football in a long, long time.....we're an odd bunch, don't try and understand us xdrunkyx

I was just about to ask if after 24 pages why you guys havent figured out whats the matter with the PL????

[RichH2]

I was just about to ask if after 24 pages why you guys havent figured out whats the matter with the PL????

Oh, hell we knew the issues for the last few years. We do have a slight tendency to beat issues to death . x406x A bit more intense this year with the increasing level of ineptness so evident. The truly sad part is our Presidents are not known to move at any other speed than the standard academic's crawl.

[LehighU11]

To further evidence the incompetence on College Hill, Lafayette has issued Lehigh-Lafayette tickets with a start time of 3:00 PM. After receiving my tickets today, I double-checked both Lehigh's and Lafayette's sites to confirm that the start remains 12:30. Pretty bad mistake for the Pards' biggest event of the year.

[The Boogie Down]

Made one correction.

Ha, I knew a Colgate fan would point that out-lol

And yeah, of course Colgate officially was in the "University Division" (what we would today call FBS) at the time but, compared to Holy Cross and Fordham, it was a "smaller" level of FBS. Not that Holy Cross and Fordham were killing it in the early '50s but their schedules seemed more P5-ish, while by then the Colgate one (like many of the Ancient VIII members) was more G5-ish.



So at the previous bottom of the PL, Bucknell and Lehigh were drawing on average 50-100% more than today. I'd call that a difference.

Welp... If I ever decide to only document Bucknell/Lehigh attendance numbers and completely forget that there are 5 other schools playing PL football, I'll definitely take that into account.

[The Boogie Down]

Maybe it's me but I just don't see the existential crisis for the PL to expand in football. There are really no schools out there that fit the profile athletically/academically.... and really, no big whoop.

Lose a playoff bid? Clutching my pearls....hardly anyone in the Northeast cares about the FCS playoffs.

7 teams is a good size...allows for varied OOC scheduling. Should Holy Cross want to play say Marist and Monmouth annually instead of Yale and UNH? I don't think so.

I highly doubt any of the PL membahs that don't have football will add/bring it back for a lot of reasons... each different for each institution.


It's easy to say you don't care about the playoffs when you never make the playoffs. Guessing you woulda been caring a whole lot (w/a true, on-the-field championship on the line) during the Gordie years. That said, I do agree with the rest. Like LFN, I'd L-U-V to see BU bring back their program. Hofstra too. But no one else brings much in terms of facilities, history or rivalries. Adding a Marist and/or Monmouth (despite Monmouth's stadium upgrade) does little in that regard and also takes away from a wide potential of OOC games.

[PAllen]

Ha, I knew a Colgate fan would point that out-lol

And yeah, of course Colgate officially was in the "University Division" (what we would today call FBS) at the time but, compared to Holy Cross and Fordham, it was a "smaller" level of FBS. Not that Holy Cross and Fordham were killing it in the early '50s but their schedules seemed more P5-ish, while by then the Colgate one (like many of the Ancient VIII members) was more G5-ish.




Welp... If I ever decide to only document Bucknell/Lehigh attendance numbers and completely forget that there are 5 other schools playing PL football, I'll definitely take that into account.

You cherry picked the worst year you could find for PL attendance in the 90s, so I cherry picked who the leaders were. You include Fordham who was crawling out of nothing in 93 and Georgetown who wasn't even close to part of the league. Even then, excluding GU, attendance still dropped by 1500. So you cherry pick as best as you can and you still show a decline in attendance including some very dramatic drops amoung what had been the league leaders.

[Go...gate]

Ha, I knew a Colgate fan would point that out-lol

And yeah, of course Colgate officially was in the "University Division" (what we would today call FBS) at the time but, compared to Holy Cross and Fordham, it was a "smaller" level of FBS. Not that Holy Cross and Fordham were killing it in the early '50s but their schedules seemed more P5-ish, while by then the Colgate one (like many of the Ancient VIII members) was more G5-ish.




Welp... If I ever decide to only document Bucknell/Lehigh attendance numbers and completely forget that there are 5 other schools playing PL football, I'll definitely take that into account.

"Smaller" level of FBS than Fordham and Holy Cross? You mean during the 1950's? Let's not forget that Fordham did not have a program after 1954, so they could not have been any "smaller".

Holy Cross' program was more successful than Colgate in the 1950s while playing some of the same programs as Colgate (Syracuse, Penn State, Army, Brown) and both schools played strong competition among their own annual opponents. Holy Cross played teams such as Miami, Pittsburgh, Dartmouth, Boston University, Marquette, NYU and Boston College and Temple, while Colgate played Ivy teams such as Princeton, Yale (annually very strong in the 50's), Cornell, Columbia (less strong) and Middle Atlantic Conference teams such as Rutgers, Bucknell and Lafayette (who were conference mates with Temple in the MAC).

It is also fair to say that both HC and Colgate considered each other a "major" or comparable opponent.

[The Boogie Down]

You cherry picked the worst year you could find for PL attendance in the 90s

No, I stated on this thread and another one that also featured, ya know facts, that I was using 1993 as the starting point b/c that's the year a whole lotta D-III's were thrown into our subdivision.


so I cherry picked who the leaders were.
Yes, you cherrypicked, but hey, that's you.


You include Fordham who was crawling out of nothing in 93
Oh wait, didn't know I wasn't supposed to include bad teams to the official attendance numbers. NCAA kinda includes them all but next time, I'll make sure to only post the teams you think are good.


and Georgetown who wasn't even close to part of the league.
Never said they were part of the league. In fact, their number was in a parenthetical and I then pointed out that they didn't join the league until 2001. Reading comprehension much? But they are in the league now. And my post followed a small back-&-forth between an HC poster and a Georgetown poster about "sinking" attendance. The official numbers however show that since the end of HC's Glory Years (coincidentally, also around 1992/1993) and since Georgetown's entry into I-AA, the league numbers haven't sunk much at all.


Even then, excluding GU, attendance still dropped by 1500. So you cherry pick as best as you can and you still show a decline in attendance including some very dramatic drops amoung what had been the league leaders.
You admitted to cherrypicking, not me. In fact, for the off-season, I had even volunteered to post ALL the PL attendance numbers since 1990 (again, assuming anyone is interested). How was that for cherrypicking?!? But hey, if you don't wanna compare 1993 to 2017, that's cool. How does 1995 vs. 2015 strike you?

Team................1995 attendance.............2015 attendance
Bucknell.............7,067........................ ....3,526
Colgate..............1,805........................ ....5,002
Fordham............2,369.......................... ...6,499
Georgetown.......(1,549).......................... 2,482
Holy Cross..........6,108............................6, 523
Lafayette............5,958........................ ....6,328
Lehigh..............10,350........................ ....8,409


PS: Apologies if not being able to be mad that attendance hasn't really changed all that much over the decades upsets you so.

[The Boogie Down]

You mean during the 1950's?

Yes. Back in the '20s and '30s Colgate's schedule was very ambitious. Ohio State, Iowa, Duke (back when they were one of the best teams around), Tulane, Penn State and Michigan State when both were still upstarts, but pretty respectable ones at that. And then of course there was Syracuse too. But then in the '40s things switched to teams (aside from 'Cuse) that would later be the Ivies plus what at the time was Ivy-lights like Bucknell and Rutgers. Still "University Division" of course but on a bit of a smaller scale.

[Go...gate]

Yes. Back in the '20s and '30s Colgate's schedule was very ambitious. Ohio State, Iowa, Duke (back when they were one of the best teams around), Tulane, Penn State and Michigan State when both were still upstarts, but pretty respectable ones at that. And then of course there was Syracuse too. But then in the '40s things switched to teams (aside from 'Cuse) that would later be the Ivies plus what at the time was Ivy-lights like Bucknell and Rutgers. Still "University Division" of course but on a bit of a smaller scale.

But I believe you would agree that the 1950's Ivy teams were still full-fledged programs, and Princeton, Yale and Dartmouth were particularly strong in this period.

[Go...gate]

As an aside, Rutgers should have stayed put with the "Ivies" and "Ivy Lights". IMO, those were Rutgers' true historical and academic peers. Imagine a Patriot League with the "Core Four", Fordham, Rutgers, William & Mary, Villanova and Richmond.

[Bisonoline]

You guys are better that the Ivy league arent you???? Im trying to watch the Yale game and its painful.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

"Smaller" level of FBS than Fordham and Holy Cross? You mean during the 1950's? Let's not forget that Fordham did not have a program after 1954, so they could not have been any "smaller".

Holy Cross' program was more successful than Colgate in the 1950s while playing some of the same programs as Colgate (Syracuse, Penn State, Army, Brown) and both schools played strong competition among their own annual opponents. Holy Cross played teams such as Miami, Pittsburgh, Dartmouth, Boston University, Marquette, NYU and Boston College and Temple, while Colgate played Ivy teams such as Princeton, Yale (annually very strong in the 50's), Cornell, Columbia (less strong) and Middle Atlantic Conference teams such as Rutgers, Bucknell and Lafayette (who were conference mates with Temple in the MAC).

It is also fair to say that both HC and Colgate considered each other a "major" or comparable opponent.

Despite what the classifications said, very little separated Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate, Delaware, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Temple, Boston College and Syracuse until the early 80's. All those schools played in modest sized stadiums and drew their crowds from a local to perhaps very small regional base. Of all those MAYBE Syracuse was able flex their muscle a little more nationally. Even so, their schedules almost exclusively consisted of schools within a days drive.

Temple's history consists of Villanova, Bucknell (4th most played opponent iirc), Rutgers, Delaware, Boston College, Boston U., and Holy Cross far more than it does with any true big time FBS programs. We want to believe PSU is a rival/peer but we've been nothing more than a homecoming cupcake for the better part of 75 years to them. Temple was playing Gettysburg, Susquehanna, Ithaca and Muhlenburg until the mid to late 60's.

The one thing that's been consistent with the PL schools is a bit of an identity crisis. Throughout their history, especially the last 50 or so year, it doesn't seem they know what they want out of football. They dip their toes in different waters but never truly commit.

[Sader87]

BC was a national program in the early 80s....they had beaten Texas, Texas A &M, Stanford et al in the 70s...they were at a much higher level than Lehigh. Lafayette Bucknell in 1980

[Go...gate]

Despite what the classifications said, very little separated Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate, Delaware, Holy Cross, Rutgers, Temple, Boston College and Syracuse until the early 80's. All those schools played in modest sized stadiums and drew their crowds from a local to perhaps very small regional base. Of all those MAYBE Syracuse was able flex their muscle a little more nationally. Even so, their schedules almost exclusively consisted of schools within a days drive.

Temple's history consists of Villanova, Bucknell (4th most played opponent iirc), Rutgers, Delaware, Boston College, Boston U., and Holy Cross far more than it does with any true big time FBS programs. We want to believe PSU is a rival/peer but we've been nothing more than a homecoming cupcake for the better part of 75 years to them. Temple was playing Gettysburg, Susquehanna, Ithaca and Muhlenburg until the mid to late 60's.

The one thing that's been consistent with the PL schools is a bit of an identity crisis. Throughout their history, especially the last 50 or so year, it doesn't seem they know what they want out of football. They dip their toes in different waters but never truly commit.

Not correct. Colgate, Syracuse, Holy Cross and Boston College (and, to a lesser degree, Lafayette) were considered - and considered themselves - "major" independent University Division college football schools into the 1970's and played a far stronger set of opponents than the other schools you named, including Ivy League schools, as the Ivy was, in general, far stronger than the MAC "College Division" schools well into the 1960's. Bucknell began to appear on Colgate schedules in the 1950's. Lehigh specifically replaced Syracuse on Colgate's schedule after 1961. Colgate and Rutgers began play in 1933. Lafayette is a long-time Colgate opponent.

Another factor needs to be considered. Rutgers, Bucknell and Lehigh began to appear on Colgate schedules because they would come to Hamilton. That was very important, because for many years, Cornell, Holy Cross and Lafayette were the only schools that would consistently travel to Hamilton. That is not criticism, just a statement of fact.