2017 PL Football Budgets – Fordham's Budget Increases Over $1 Million Year-over-Year

[ramMan]

The US Dept. of Ed published the latest athletic budget data earlier this week. Listed below are the football budgets for the PL schools.
Fordham's football budget increased a whopping $1 million year-over-year (from $6,003,614 to $7,060,178). Fordham's overall athletic budget increased by $2.5 million (from $30.6 million to $33.1 million).
When I first started tracking Fordham's athletic budget a few years before Fr. McShane was named university president, the University's overall athletic budget was a little over $3 million. There have been massive yearly budget increases under McShane's leadership, particularly the athletic scholarship budget (now at $14 million).

Fordham $7,060,178
Lafayette $6,581,062
Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate $5,899,143
Bucknell $5,672,257
Lehigh $5,301,592
Georgetown $2,117,506

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

A major reason for Fordham's robust budget is the cost of doing business in NYC. It really doesn't reflect their overall commitment to on the field performance. The men's bball program is a mess, Rose Hill Gym is a dump and by most accounts the football facilities are seriously lacking. Fordham still needs to make much needed capital improvements to their infrastructure if they want any meaningful ROI.....

Lehigh's budget does not surprise me. It's been talked about recently how the football program is run on nickels and dimes....

[RichH2]

A major reason for Fordham's robust budget is the cost of doing business in NYC. It really doesn't reflect their overall commitment to on the field performance. The men's bball program is a mess, Rose Hill Gym is a dump and by most accounts the football facilities are seriously lacking. Fordham still needs to make much needed capital improvements to their infrastructure if they want any meaningful ROI.....

Lehigh's budget does not surprise me. It's been talked about recently how the football program is run on nickels and dimes....
Caveat for comparing numbers is the varying accounting schemes used by schools in addition to the CODB. That sais I agree owl Lehigh budget is being squeezed hard. The substantial increase in merit aid to women's sport( which is fine by me) without a commensurate increase in AD budget causes tightening of the belts in a number of sports not just football. The Football partnership( which all fans should contribute to) provides some relief for Coen.

[TennBison]

A major reason for Fordham's robust budget is the cost of doing business in NYC. It really doesn't reflect their overall commitment to on the field performance. The men's bball program is a mess, Rose Hill Gym is a dump and by most accounts the football facilities are seriously lacking. Fordham still needs to make much needed capital improvements to their infrastructure if they want any meaningful ROI.....

Lehigh's budget does not surprise me. It's been talked about recently how the football program is run on nickels and dimes....
If you say Lehigh runs its football program on nickels and dimes, then what does Georgetown spend on football, grains of sand and tiny little pebbles?

[RichH2]

If you say Lehigh runs its football program on nickels and dimes, then what does Georgetown spend on football, grains of sand and tiny little pebbles?

Their cry is no longer "Hoya Saxa"
Now. "Alms for the poor"

[WestCoastAggie]

The US Dept. of Ed published the latest athletic budget data earlier this week. Listed below are the football budgets for the PL schools.
Fordham's football budget increased a whopping $1 million year-over-year (from $6,003,614 to $7,060,178). Fordham's overall athletic budget increased by $2.5 million (from $30.6 million to $33.1 million).
When I first started tracking Fordham's athletic budget a few years before Fr. McShane was named university president, the University's overall athletic budget was a little over $3 million. There have been massive yearly increases under McShane's leadership, particularly the athletic scholarship budget (now at $14 million).

Fordham $7,060,178
Lafayette $6,581,062
Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate $5,899,143
Bucknell $5,672,257
Lehigh $5,301,592
Georgetown $2,117,506

Sheesh, PL football budgets are almost double, on average than the budgets in the MEAC.

[The Boogie Down]

The US Dept. of Ed published the latest athletic budget data earlier this week. Listed below are the football budgets for the PL schools. Fordham's football budget increased a whopping $1 million year-over-year (from $6,003,614 to $7,060,178). Fordham's overall athletic budget increased by $2.5 million (from $30.6 million to $33.1 million). When I first started tracking Fordham's athletic budget a few years before Fr. McShane was named university president, the University's overall athletic budget was a little over $3 million. There have been massive yearly budget increases under McShane's leadership, particularly the athletic scholarship budget (now at $14 million).



Nice find, ramMan! Guessing it was around 1999/2000 when the overall athletic budget was just over $3M. Also guessing football was coming in at around $800,000 back then. And even that's a far cry from 1978 when the football budget was $125,000 and especially 1979, when it dipped back to $64,000, after the school decided to stay in the D-III fold.

Link: http://digital.library.fordham.edu/digital/collection/RAM/id/14609/rec/1

[Go...gate]

Colgate looks about right - and it is a bit less expensive to do business in Central New York.

[Go...gate]

I think Goodman is a great place to watch a football game - like the old Rutgers Stadium, it is set in a natural ravine with fine sight lines.

[ramMan]

A major reason for Fordham's robust budget is the cost of doing business in NYC. It really doesn't reflect their overall commitment to on the field performance. The men's bball program is a mess, Rose Hill Gym is a dump and by most accounts the football facilities are seriously lacking. Fordham still needs to make much needed capital improvements to their infrastructure if they want any meaningful ROI.....

Lehigh's budget does not surprise me. It's been talked about recently how the football program is run on nickels and dimes....

True, Fordham's football facilities are "seriously lacking," but is Lehigh's Goodman Stadium, which is located four miles (!) from Lehigh's campus and whose stands are set back far from the field, much better? Whatever happened to the plan to move the press box to the visitors' side of the stadium and convert the current press box to luxury suites? Does the stadium have a video board? Many high schools now have them. And if it's true that Lehigh's football program is run on "nickels and dimes," Goodman won't be getting a facelift anytime soon.

True, also, that Fordham's men's basketball program is a "mess," but Fordham's other varsity teams are very competitive, and some are excelling (e.g., men's soccer reached the Elite 8 last season, softball has earned NCAA berths in seven of the past eight years, women's basketball has played in postseason tournaments in four of the past five years, etc.). Getting back to men's basketball, IMO, Coach Neubauer is Fordham's best in-game coach since joining the A-10, and his recruiting has picked up significantly this year. I'm confident he'll turn the program around, maybe as soon as next year.

[RichH2]

True, Fordham's football facilities are "seriously lacking," but is Lehigh's Goodman Stadium, which is located four miles (!) from Lehigh's campus and whose stands are set back far from the field, much better? Whatever happened to the plan to move the press box to the visitors' side of the stadium and convert the current press box to luxury suites? Does the stadium have a video board? Many high schools now have them. And if it's true that Lehigh's football program is run on "nickels and dimes," Goodman won't be getting a facelift anytime soon.

True, also, that Fordham's men's basketball program is a "mess," but Fordham's other varsity teams are very competitive, and some are excelling (e.g., men's soccer reached the Elite 8 last season, softball has earned NCAA berths in seven of the past eight years, women's basketball has played in postseason tournaments in four of the past five years, etc.). Getting back to men's basketball, IMO, Coach Neubauer is Fordham's best in-game coach since joining the A-10, and his recruiting has picked up significantly this year. I'm confident he'll turn the program around, maybe as soon as next year.

Fairly accurate assessment of Goodman altho its setting is superb. The football budget has nothing to do with Goodman upgrades. All construction is done by the University in its captial budget. Given the current expansion of the student population and the addition of a new school, I fear absent a generous alum Goodman upgrades are now pretty far down the list.

[DFW HOYA]

True, Fordham's football facilities are "seriously lacking," but is Lehigh's Goodman Stadium, which is located four miles (!) from Lehigh's campus and whose stands are set back far from the field, much better?

Of course it is. Where would you rather play?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images_lehigh_500.jpghttp://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/lehigh_500.jpg

[ramMan]

Of course it is. Where would you rather play?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images_lehigh_500.jpghttp://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/lehigh_500.jpg


Thanks for posting those pics, DFW. They clearly show how spectators are on top of the action at Fordham's Jack Coffey Field and how distant fans are from the gridiron at Goodman. Also, Fordham's football stadium is located in the shadows of Rose Hill's signature building, Keating Hall. Goodman is four miles away from Lehigh's campus. For those familiar with the Bronx, it'd be like Fordham moving its home games to a field in the middle of Van Cortlandt Park. Beautiful setting, very scenic in the fall, but a friggin' 20-minute drive from campus.

[DFW HOYA]

Thanks for posting those pics, DFW. They clearly show how spectators are on top of the action at Fordham's Jack Coffey Field and how distant fans are from the gridiron at Goodman. Also, Fordham's football stadium is located in the shadows of Rose Hill's signature building, Keating Hall. Goodman is four miles away from Lehigh's campus. For those familiar with the Bronx, it'd be like Fordham moving its home games to Mount Saint Michael.

With that argument, you could also say the close-in "seating" at Cooper Field is a great place, too. When it had seating, of course.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/cooper_401.jpg

[The Boogie Down]

Sheesh, PL football budgets are almost double, on average than the budgets in the MEAC.

And that's why we're twice as good! xliarx xliarx xliarx

[The Boogie Down]

Also, Fordham's football stadium is located in the shadows of Rose Hill's signature building, Keating Hall. Goodman is four miles away from Lehigh's campus.


Same team here ramMan, but c'mon, what "football stadium" are you even talking about? That one-sided, aluminum erector set behind the baseball diamond's left field wall? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate how far we've come over the years. Still, until we get an actual stadium, it's always gonna feel like things are being done w/smoke and mirrors.

[LUHawker]

Thanks for posting those pics, DFW. They clearly show how spectators are on top of the action at Fordham's Jack Coffey Field and how distant fans are from the gridiron at Goodman. Also, Fordham's football stadium is located in the shadows of Rose Hill's signature building, Keating Hall. Goodman is four miles away from Lehigh's campus. For those familiar with the Bronx, it'd be like Fordham moving its home games to a field in the middle of Van Cortlandt Park. Beautiful setting, very scenic in the fall, but a friggin' 20-minute drive from campus.


I think you make too big an issue of Goodman's proximity to the academic campus. It's six times a year for games, so hardly a big inconvenience. Plus, the massive tailgating area, beautiful setting and easy access more than compensates for it not being squeezed into a tight area. You would be in the rare minority who might choose JC Field over Goodman.

[RichH2]

I think you make too big an issue of Goodman's proximity to the academic campus. It's six times a year for games, so hardly a big inconvenience. Plus, the massive tailgating area, beautiful setting and easy access more than compensates for it not being squeezed into a tight area. You would be in the rare minority who might choose JC Field over Goodman.
+1

[van]

Thanks for posting those pics, DFW. They clearly show how spectators are on top of the action at Fordham's Jack Coffey Field and how distant fans are from the gridiron at Goodman. Also, Fordham's football stadium is located in the shadows of Rose Hill's signature building, Keating Hall. Goodman is four miles away from Lehigh's campus. For those familiar with the Bronx, it'd be like Fordham moving its home games to a field in the middle of Van Cortlandt Park. Beautiful setting, very scenic in the fall, but a friggin' 20-minute drive from campus.


just to get the facts right, Goodman is 2.2 miles from my fraternity and 3.3 miles from Packer Hall, not that anyone goes from class to the Stadium on a Saturday morning, even at my advanced age I could walk to Goodman from the Frat in less than 20 minutes, and I've been to Coffey and Goodman game day is far superior

[NY Crusader 2010]

There is very little comparison in the quality of the game day experience between Jack Coffey Field and Goodman. Goodman wins this one by a landslide. Yes, you're closer to the action at Fordham but you are looking out across the field and there is no opposite side stands, which makes it more of a high school feel. There is something about being able to hear the roar of the opposing fan base, even if it's only a few hundred on the other side. Crappy locker room situation, visitors have to do all the pre-game trainers table stuff in the Lombardi Center (at least as of 2009). Concessions at Jack Coffey -- marginally better than Holy Cross. Food selection at Lehigh far superior as is the charm of the natural turf field with the grassy overflow area behind the end zone.

That being said, Jack Coffey is a beautiful venue and a hidden secret to many in New York City and the Bronx. I have been to Goodman 4 times and Jack Coffey 5 times and had great experiences every time. Both have solid tailgating situations as well.

How I'd rank the Patriot League venues:

1) Lehigh
2) Lafayette
3) Holy Cross
4t) Fordham
4t) Colgate
6) Georgetown
7) Bucknell

[RichH2]

There is very little comparison in the quality of the game day experience between Jack Coffey Field and Goodman. Goodman wins this one by a landslide. Yes, you're closer to the action at Fordham but you are looking out across the field and there is no opposite side stands, which makes it more of a high school feel. There is something about being able to hear the roar of the opposing fan base, even if it's only a few hundred on the other side. Crappy locker room situation, visitors have to do all the pre-game trainers table stuff in the Lombardi Center (at least as of 2009). Concessions at Jack Coffey -- marginally better than Holy Cross. Food selection at Lehigh far superior as is the charm of the natural turf field with the grassy overflow area behind the end zone.

That being said, Jack Coffey is a beautiful venue and a hidden secret to many in New York City and the Bronx. I have been to Goodman 4 times and Jack Coffey 5 times and had great experiences every time. Both have solid tailgating situations as well.

How I'd rank the Patriot League venues:

1) Lehigh
2) Lafayette
3) Holy Cross
4t) Fordham
4t) Colgate
6) Georgetown
7) Bucknell
Agree.

[DFW HOYA]

How I'd rank the Patriot League venues:

1) Lehigh
2) Lafayette
3) Holy Cross
4t) Fordham
4t) Colgate
6) Georgetown
7) Bucknell

No way Bucknell is 7th.

[NY Crusader 2010]

No way Bucknell is 7th.

To tell you the truth, I don't find any of the PL stadiums to be terribly bad places to watch a game, having been to all seven. Just so happens that Bucknell plays in a run-down stadium with crappy turf (maybe they upgraded since my last visit) and the crowd energy seems to always be poor. Not overly knocking Christy Mathewson, just would be my last choice for a place to see a game.

[RichH2]

Over the last 50 years been to Christy probably 15 or more times. It wasnt bad back in the 60s. Good crowds nice atmospbhere. It has been crumbling ever since. Rather dismal place last I was there about 4-5 years ago. I like Coffey mostly because its about a r0 min drive for me :). Otherwise , its barely a HS field. Gate is nice if tiny and area is lovely in October :). Fisher is a great facility wedged into Pard campus. Fitton is fun. Havent been in a while but with upgrades could be best in PL.Only knock I have for Goodman is distance from field. A true screw up. Needs an updated scoreboard.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

FYI-The Field Turf and track were replaced in 2012 at Christy Matthewson Stadium. We're a league with some fine football venues. You're entitled to your opinions but last? Really? Have you been to Georgetown? The setting is awesome-- the Susquehanna is not the Potomac. The MSF is a bit better than a car park roof, too. Let's see what gets conjured.

[Bill]

just to get the facts right, Goodman is 2.2 miles from my fraternity and 3.3 miles from Packer Hall, not that anyone goes from class to the Stadium on a Saturday morning, even at my advanced age I could walk to Goodman from the Frat in less than 20 minutes, and I've been to Coffey and Goodman game day is far superior

Van,
I'm sure you could get DOWN to Goodman in 20 minutes...but that's a hell of a walk back UP! xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

Have you been to Georgetown? The setting is awesome-- the Susquehanna is not the Potomac.

Am I missing something?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/stadia-msf.jpg

[Go...gate]

Christy Mathewson - Memorial Stadium was heavily renovated in about 1987-88. It is a nice place to watch a ball game and I disagree that it is "crumbling".

My vote for crumbling is old Palmer Stadium at Princeton between 1993 and 1996, when it closed. Sadly, the concrete (dating to 1914) was literally disintegrating back to sand. When it was torn down at the end of 1996, the demolition people had a very easy time - it came down and far quicker than anticipated.

[PAllen]

Am I missing something?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/stadia-msf.jpg

Yeah, that picture still has the home stands in it :)

[DFW HOYA]

One doesn't need the nicest stadium to have a great atmosphere--that stadium in State College isn't exactly the Rose Bowl. What you do need is a environment that enjoys the game and the expectation of a winning result at home. Georgetown has won all of two PL games at home in four seasons. Bucknell hasn't won a PL title in 22 years. Fans can lose hope when there isn't any to go around.

Three schools have essentially rotated the PL title in 10 of the last 11 years. Locking in scholarships will make it more difficult, perhaps prohibitively so, that Georgetown and Bucknell can crack that ceiling. What message does that send a fan base that can just as soon stay home and watch the SEC game of the week instead?

But to the title of the thread--Fordham now spends more on football than nearly every school in the subdivision outside of Delaware and JMU. Are they getting their money's worth?

[van]

Van,
I'm sure you could get DOWN to Goodman in 20 minutes...but that's a hell of a walk back UP! xthumbsupx
yeah, I would definitely need a lift back

[The Boogie Down]

How I'd rank the Patriot League venues:
1) Lehigh
2) Lafayette
3) Holy Cross
4t) Fordham
4t) Colgate
6) Georgetown
7) Bucknell

Unlike you, I haven't been to any of these venues except for Fordham's of course. But I have been watching road games (via computer or TV when lucky) for years and some certainly look better than others. At least on one of my screens. I realize that I'm not factoring fan experience but just on sheer looks, here's how I'd rank 'em:


1) Lafayette: This is what an FCS stadium is all about. Close to the action, 2 sides (both painted in school colors), big scoreboard, big field house behind one of the end zones, nice press box. I guess it would be nicer if the visiting stands were a tad closer to the field but other than that, almost perfect.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27069&stc=1

2) Bucknell: Don't know why this clean looking place gets low ratings. Then again I'm only going by what I've seen on a screen so I've missed out on things like one of the concession stands catching fire back in 2014, but I like it. Most bitch about tracks around fields but in this case I think the blue and orange coloring adds pop. Clean symmetry, nice touch with the bushes spelling out "Bucknell" and (although not noticeable in this pic) nice white facade too. Minuses include a lack of adjacent field house, a HS-level score board and a truly awful, Pop Warner-level press box.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27070&stc=1

3) Lehigh: Considered by most as the class of the PL but, for some reason, doesn't exactly do it for me. Alotta seats, big field house, big scoreboard, giant hill to picnic on while catching things behind one of the end zones and yet it almost seems too perfect to me. Obviously even without a track, the stands are too far away but aside from that, there's just something missing in the charm department here. I dunno, maybe it's just that Fordham never wins here!
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27071&stc=1

4) Holy Cross: By far the best sight lines and right on top of the action. Also the only stadium in the entire league to have an enclosed section. Still, for all of HC's history, I'd expect way more in charm here as well. So much in aluminum and so little in concrete. Kinda like Hofstra with less symmetry and a much crappier press box. The covered tarps look awful but we'll see what happens in renovations.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27072&stc=1

5) Colgate: Weirdest stadium in the league. One side features concrete and looks like something you'd find in the Ivy League. The other side, the one with the press box oddly enough, looks like the aluminum bleachers you'd find at most high schools. Unlike Bucknell, here the track adds little in color although the scoreboard is nice. Still, all Fordham and Georgetown hafta do is try, even a little, and they'll have a better visitor's section.
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27073&stc=1


AGS won't let me post more than 5 photos per post which is fine since we've already seen JCF and MSF photos on this thread. Fordham needs at least a second set of stands while Georgetown, well, there's a loooooong way to go.

[Gate83]

Can't resist on the venue rankings. Mine encompass the entire experience, since most of the time the goings on around the game are as or more important than the game itself...

1. Colgate. Homer pick, of course! The stadium is overbuilt for the area, so you can get a good seat anytime. Reason the visitors side is so puny is no visitors ever attend/can't find the place. Tailgate is wildly convenient & everyone's friendly, can be in the local bars within 2 minutes of leaving the parking lot.

2. Fordham. Crappy stadium but good tailgate. Arthur Ave in walking distance is the best postgame experience in the league.

3. Lafayette. On campus stadium is great, walk to the College Hill Tavern is easy. Weird that the best tailgate is in a parking garage, but it is convenient...

4. Holy Cross. Would rank higher if the police in the parking lots weren't such a-holes. Have stopped going as why drive 2+ hours to be harassed?

5. Lehigh. Have only been a couple of times and was probably tough for the faithful to embrace the enemy when I was last there for the league-clinching game in 2012, but it's the least friendly away parking lot I've been to in the league. Bonus deduction for being off campus, doesn't have the same collegiate feel as the other venues.

6. Georgetown/Bucknell. Haven't been to either for a game, so having been to both Georgetown & Lewisburg... I'll take DC.

[ramMan]

. . . Fordham now spends more on football than nearly every school in the subdivision outside of Delaware and JMU. Are they getting their money's worth?


Considering the Rams have earned NCAA playoff berths in three of the past five years, my answer would be yes.
During that span, Fordham's football budget was in the top 10 among all FCS programs, public or private. This year, as you've correctly pointed out, only two schools, JMU and Delaware, spend more on football than Fordham.
Listed below are the football budgets for all the private schools in the FCS.

Fordham $7,060,178
Richmond $6,740,937
Furman $6,675,863
Villanova $6,650,278
Lafayette $6,581,062
Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate $5,899,143
Bucknell $5,672,257
Samford $5,478,355
Elon $5,355,620
Lehigh $5,301,592
Wofford $4,963,325
Mercer $4,931,350
Monmouth $4,919,009
Bethune-Cookman $4,844,543
Presbyterian College $4,359,553
Incarnate Word $4,232,607
Columbia $4,135,493
Houston Baptist $4,042,388
Abilene Christian $3,867,984
Howard $3,861,351
Bryant $3,727,218
Charleston Southern $3,543,321
Hampton $3,384,701
Wagner $3,303,634
Yale $3,297,614
Princeton $3,260,011
Dartmouth $3,183,044
Robert Morris $3,069,513
Duquesne $3,046,078
Gardner-Webb $2,945,128
Harvard $2,940,824
Pennsylvania $2,888,337
Sacred Heart $2,850,386
St. Francis (PA) $2,841,503
Brown $2,418,502
Cornell $2,218,038
Campbell $2,150,874
Georgetown $2,117,506
Davidson $1,849,299
Stetson $1,838,277
San Diego $1,328,169
Jacksonville $1,303,640
Marist $1,281,009
Dayton $1,232,195
Valparaiso $1,108,158
Drake $1,028,182
Butler $847,654

[The Boogie Down]

But to the title of the thread--Fordham now spends more on football than nearly every school in the subdivision outside of Delaware and JMU. Are they getting their money's worth?

As someone mentioned earlier, it's the price of doing business in NYC. Can't talk about that ever increasing price going forward, but I woulda been much happier had some green been used on Pete Lembo instead of taking a chance on another unproven commodity. Can only imagine what Fordham-Lehigh games woulda been like w/Lembo in maroon!

As for previous seasons, except for 2017, what hasn't been worth the money? A couple of playoff wins, a couple of FBS wins, a period of sheer dominance over the PL and IL alike, a bump in local coverage and, surpassingly, some love from ESPN too. This includes highlights of their Temple win on College Football Final, a pre-game prediction (against Holy Cross at Yankee Stadium) appear on College Game Day and more SportsCenter "Top-10" appearances than Fordham hoops could ever even dream of! The aforementioned Yankee Stadium contest brought in 21,000+ fans while average JCF attendance between 2013-2016 was more than double than what it had been 20 years earlier.

Facilities are still horrific but for the part we've had good schedules, good talent and until last year, good results. Not JMU good but I'd bet Fordham fans had way more fun from 2013 to 2016 than Delaware fans. More fun than most of the FCS world actually.

[van]

5. Lehigh. Have only been a couple of times and was probably tough for the faithful to embrace the enemy when I was last there for the league-clinching game in 2012, but it's the least friendly away parking lot I've been to in the league. Bonus deduction for being off campus, doesn't have the same collegiate feel as the other venues.


not sure where you tailgated, the parking area around Stabler is very fan friendly, maybe you are kinda scary looking?

[Sader87]

The cops/security at Fitton started to approach East Berlin Polizei levels for awhile...been somewhat toned down lately (from my experience anyway). Tailgates at Fitton in the 80s into the 90s were getting out of hand to some and the school/city over-reacted.

Fitton Field stadium does lack charm but probably has as good of sightlines as any D1 stadia in the country imo.

[Fordham]

Considering the Rams have earned NCAA playoff berths in three of the past five years, my answer would be yes.
During that span, Fordham's football budget was in the top 10 among all FCS programs, public or private. This year, as you've correctly pointed out, only two schools, JMU and Delaware, spend more on football than Fordham.
Listed below are the football budgets for all the private schools in the FCS.

Fordham $7,060,178
Richmond $6,740,937
Furman $6,675,863
Villanova $6,650,278
Lafayette $6,581,062
Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate $5,899,143
Bucknell $5,672,257
Samford $5,478,355
Elon $5,355,620
Lehigh $5,301,592



is tuition part of that number? If so, room and board too or no?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

As someone mentioned earlier, it's the price of doing business in NYC. Can't talk about that ever increasing price going forward, but I woulda been much happier had some green been used on Pete Lembo instead of taking a chance on another unproven commodity. Can only imagine what Fordham-Lehigh games woulda been like w/Lembo in maroon!

As for previous seasons, except for 2017, what hasn't been worth the money? A couple of playoff wins, a couple of FBS wins, a period of sheer dominance over the PL and IL alike, a bump in local coverage and, surpassingly, some love from ESPN too. This includes highlights of their Temple win on College Football Final, a pre-game prediction (against Holy Cross at Yankee Stadium) appear on College Game Day and more SportsCenter "Top-10" appearances than Fordham hoops could ever even dream of! The aforementioned Yankee Stadium contest brought in 21,000+ fans while average JCF attendance between 2013-2016 was more than double than what it had been 20 years earlier.

Facilities are still horrific but for the part we've had good schedules, good talent and until last year, good results. Not JMU good but I'd bet Fordham fans had way more fun from 2013 to 2016 than Delaware fans. More fun than most of the FCS world actually.


Huh? Fordham won 1 league title in the time frame you talk about. To be fair they would have shared it with Lafayette in 2013 if they were eligible. Still "sheer dominance" is a serious stretch. Bad defenses ultimately cost the Rams from maxing out during the Moorhead run imo. You guys had some nice wins but ultimately I think the Rams ultimately underachieved a bit. The Rams performance against power conference teams (like Lehigh's last two showings) did nothing to help improve their image or the leagues.

Fordham had a good run but it wasn't next level good.

[RichH2]

is tuition part of that number? If so, room and board too or no?

No easy answer. There is no uniform accounting method for college athletic departments. Safe to say many do include schollie grants at least to some extent.

[ramMan]

Lafayette: This is what an FCS stadium is all about. Close to the action, 2 sides (both painted in school colors), big scoreboard, big field house behind one of the end zones, nice press box. I guess it would be nicer if the visiting stands were a tad closer to the field but other than that, almost perfect.


Lafayette has the best football facility in the PL, IMO. Would love for something similar to be built on the Jack "Coffee Can" Field footprint.

[ramMan]

just to get the facts right, Goodman is 2.2 miles from my fraternity and 3.3 miles from Packer Hall, not that anyone goes from class to the Stadium on a Saturday morning, even at my advanced age I could walk to Goodman from the Frat in less than 20 minutes, and I've been to Coffey and Goodman game day is far superior

Not sure what route you took, but our drive from the heart of Lehigh's campus (University Center/Lamberton Hall) to Goodman was a little over 4 miles. And we took what we were told was the shortest, quickest route (Mountain Drive). It could be that Goodman is only a couple of miles from the southernmost end of Lehigh's campus, where some of the frat houses are located, but if the distance of an FCS school's stadium from its campus is measured in miles, then, IMO, that's not ideal since game attendance at this level relies heavily on students and alums wanting to take a stroll around campus pre- and/or post-game.

Re gameday atmosphere, here's what LFN wrote in a blog post last fall after attending the Lehigh vs. Fordham game at Rose Hill:

Somehow, Fordham is getting this football thing right. They are creating a great gameday atmosphere, whether they're 6-2 or 2-6, and coming up with a product that people are excited to watch.
The Rams have a neat, old-school stadium that isn't the biggest in the world, but it was a fun place to watch a football game. The tailgates were open late. The lot was packed. The students were all over campus, well after the game had concluded. Fordham's campus was a neat place to be. Even the halftime show, featuring "Drums of Thunder", the 4th and 5th grade drumline from Montclair, NJ, had all 8,000 fans or so in attendance on their feet.
And then I think of Lehigh's home game vs. Penn - a similar day in a lot of respects, a hot, beautiful day and a packed campus.
Yet Murray Goodman Stadium saw fewer fans, less charm, and an uneven performance on the field by the home team on that day. In all three aspects, Fordham's performance outdid Lehigh's on Family Day easily.

[PAllen]

Not sure what route you took, but our drive from the heart of Lehigh's campus (University Center/Lamberton Hall) to Goodman was a little over 4 miles. And we took what we were told was the shortest, quickest route (Mountain Drive). It could be that Goodman is only a couple of miles from the southernmost end of Lehigh's campus, where some of the frat houses are located, but if the distance of an FCS school's stadium from its campus is measured in miles, then, IMO, that's not ideal since game attendance at this level relies heavily on students and alums wanting to take a stroll around campus pre- and/or post-game.

Re gameday atmosphere, here's what LFN wrote in a blog post last fall after attending the Lehigh vs. Fordham game at Rose Hill:

Somehow, Fordham is getting this football thing right. They are creating a great gameday atmosphere, whether they're 6-2 or 2-6, and coming up with a product that people are excited to watch.
The Rams have a neat, old-school stadium that isn't the biggest in the world, but it was a fun place to watch a football game. The tailgates were open late. The lot was packed. The students were all over campus, well after the game had concluded. Fordham's campus was a neat place to be. Even the halftime show, featuring "Drums of Thunder", the 4th and 5th grade drumline from Montclair, NJ, had all 8,000 fans or so in attendance on their feet.
And then I think of Lehigh's home game vs. Penn - a similar day in a lot of respects, a hot, beautiful day and a packed campus.
Yet Murray Goodman Stadium saw fewer fans, less charm, and an uneven performance on the field by the home team on that day. In all three aspects, Fordham's performance outdid Lehigh's on Family Day easily.

I don't know, your stadium is pretty far from your Westchester or Manhattan portions of campus. You do realize that Lehigh's campus covers most of the eastern portion of south mountain right?

[NY Crusader 2010]

Huh? Fordham won 1 league title in the time frame you talk about. To be fair they would have shared it with Lafayette in 2013 if they were eligible. Still "sheer dominance" is a serious stretch. Bad defenses ultimately cost the Rams from maxing out during the Moorhead run imo. You guys had some nice wins but ultimately I think the Rams ultimately underachieved a bit. The Rams performance against power conference teams (like Lehigh's last two showings) did nothing to help improve their image or the leagues.

Fordham had a good run but it wasn't next level good.

Fordham's loss that year was against Lafayette. Even if Fordham had been eligible, the Leopards still would have won the auto-bid that year and started the longest thread in AGS history. Fordham would have been co-champs, gotten rings and gone to the postseason as the well-deserved at-large that they already were that season. I was at the Fordham-SHU game Thanksgiving weekend that year.

[Gate83]

not sure where you tailgated, the parking area around Stabler is very fan friendly, maybe you are kinda scary looking?

As scary as a middle aged office worker can be. Though since the LU fans were such dicks we may have turned it up a notch at the end...

[Bill]

is tuition part of that number? If so, room and board too or no?

Fordham,

The expense numbers that ramMan posted appear to match the numbers listed on the EADA site (I only looked at the PL though). Yes, tuition/aid is part of that number. If room and board is awarded, it's part of that figure also...
Hope this helps!

[ramMan]

I don't know, your stadium is pretty far from your Westchester or Manhattan portions of campus.

. . . and Fordham's London Centre. :D



You do realize that Lehigh's campus covers most of the eastern portion of south mountain right?

Yep, I'm aware of that. Note, I said "heart of Lehigh's campus", meaning the part of campus where most of the academic, administrative, student services and residential buildings are located.

[van]

I don't know, your stadium is pretty far from your West chester or Manhattan portions of campus. You do realize that Lehigh's campus covers most of the eastern portion of south mountain right?

I believe we now have a satellite in silicon valley, Goodman is really far from there

[Fordham]

No easy answer. There is no uniform accounting method for college athletic departments. Safe to say many do include schollie grants at least to some extent.

Yeah, tough to read much into these numbers without knowing that. Assuming our number includes tuition, room & board, that takes $4.05MM out of our number compared to Yale, Princeton, et al whose numbers I assume DO NOT include tuition, room & board as a 'merit-aid only' school. Still leaves a good sized budget for us, though, of around $3MM. Coaching/staff salaries, recruiting, equipment would take up the bulk of that, I assume. Anything else? Seems to me that the high tuition number and likely the coaches salaries would be the things that would skew our numbers up a bit as the cost of doing business in NYC.

That said, that's alot of scratch any way you look at it

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The vast majority of Fordham's athletic budget goes to scholarships, of which $2.8 million is dedicated to football scholarships alone.

[Fordham]

The vast majority of Fordham's athletic budget goes to scholarships, of which $2.8 million is dedicated to football scholarships alone.
It's more like $4MM if you include room & board. The $2.8MMish is just tuition alone.

[The Boogie Down]

Huh? Fordham won 1 league title in the time frame you talk about. To be fair they would have shared it with Lafayette in 2013 if they were eligible. Still "sheer dominance" is a serious stretch. Bad defenses ultimately cost the Rams from maxing out during the Moorhead run imo. You guys had some nice wins but ultimately I think the Rams ultimately underachieved a bit. The Rams performance against power conference teams (like Lehigh's last two showings) did nothing to help improve their image or the leagues.

Fordham had a good run but it wasn't next level good.

The complete part of my phrase was "a period of sheer dominance over the PL and IL alike” and yeah, with a combined 29-3 record against the Patsies and Ivies, that is accurate. How else would you describe 29-3? A period of Ehhh, Not-So-Badness? xdontknowx


Since the HC glory days, which other PL/IL team has ever been as consistently good as Fordham was from 2013-2016? Which other went 29-3 against their PL/IL brethren? Even Harvard and their carefully manicured schedules hasn’t had four straight years like the Nebrich/Edmonds ones. So, again, if it is indeed a "serious stretch” to call 29-3 sheer dominance, then what's not? Would 30-2 or 31-1 have done the trick or would Fordham have had to go a perfect 32-0? xcrazyx


All that said, considering the scholarship advantage, I agree that ultimately Fordham did underachieve. And yeah, thanks to an inconsistent D, it wasn’t “next level good” but that's exactly why I also said we were “Not JMU good.” So, aside from whatever your definition of sheer dominance is, I’m not sure where the disagreement is. xconfusedx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The complete part of my phrase was "a period of sheer dominance over the PL and IL alike” and yeah, with a combined 29-3 record against the Patsies and Ivies, that is accurate. How else would you describe 29-3? A period of Ehhh, Not-So-Badness? xdontknowx


Since the HC glory days, which other PL/IL team has ever been as consistently good as Fordham was from 2013-2016? Which other went 29-3 against their PL/IL brethren? Even Harvard and their carefully manicured schedules hasn’t had four straight years like the Nebrich/Edmonds ones. So, again, if it is indeed a "serious stretch” to call 29-3 sheer dominance, then what's not? Would 30-2 or 31-1 have done the trick or would Fordham have had to go a perfect 32-0? xcrazyx


All that said, considering the scholarship advantage, I agree that ultimately Fordham did underachieve. And yeah, thanks to an inconsistent D, it wasn’t “next level good” but that's exactly why I also said we were “Not JMU good.” So, aside from whatever your definition of sheer dominance is, I’m not sure where the disagreement is. xconfusedx

IMO, there have been 2 periods of "sheer dominance" in the PL. Holy Cross from 1986-1991 and Lehigh from 1998-2001. You could could extend it out to 2005 with 8,8 and a 9 win Co-Champ/At-Large bid team in '04 and a 8-3 Top 25 team in '05. Colgate had a great stretch from 1996-2005 but there were some so-so records during that span. Fordham's stretch that you're referring to does not compare to the runs Holy Cross and Lehigh had.

Both HC and Fordham had the scholarship advantage which obviously helped. The difference is HC was historically good during that time frame. Having a Heisman Finalist and all-time great team in 1987 can't be ignored. They also went 11-0 in 1991 and finished #3. Ironically, the only league game the Crusaders lost during their run was to Lafayette in '88. The Crusaders were also blowing teams out of the water. Fordham had several close calls during their run and few ugly losses.

Lehigh went 11-0 (6-0) in '98, '99 10-1 (5-1), '00 11-0 (6-0), '01 10-0 (7-0) and like HC were killing teams. 3 undefeated regular seasons in 4 years will likely never be duplicated. If you extend it out to 2005 Lehigh had a ridiculous run of being ranked in the TSN Top 25. From the final 3 weeks of the '98 season until the end of the '05 season they spent all but 3-5 weeks in the Top 25 iirc. They also had playoff success against elite teams in 1-AA. Hell Lehigh went 9-2 (6-0) playoff win top 15 ranking in '10 10-1 (6-0) playoff win, 10 Payton Runner-up Top 10 ranking in '11, 10-1 (5-1) Top 20 ranking in '12, and 8-3 (4-2) in '13 while spending most of the year in the Top 20.

Fordham was really good no doubt about it but they didn't raise the bar imo. They proved that basically scholarships are not the magic cure. I'm NOT hating but I think your comment deserves a little be of context based on the history of the league. I still can't get the Fordham-'Nova game out of head even a few years later. But they did keep the league relevant because of those FBS wins and Edmonds greatness.

[The Boogie Down]

^^^

Not wanting to be blasphemous, I never compared the recent Fordham squads to the HC ones of the '80s and early '90s. In fact, I made sure to say "Since the HC glory years" b/c I know this stuff eventually gets back to Sader 87! That said, yeah, I gotta give it up to your Hawkineers. Until reading your post and looking it up, I didn't realize Lehigh was that great in the late '90s and early '00s. I remember them being on par w/some good 'Gate teams of that same era but results show Lehigh was better. With 3 separate trips into the QF's, better than 2013-2016 Fordham too. So yeah, I gotta give it up there as well! Still, going back to my question,,, how is 29-3 not sheer dominance?

As for the non-PL/IL stuff, yup, that Nova loss was bad. So were those playoff games against power conference teams. So was the 2016 debacle against you guys. But we also beat you guys three straight years before that. Beat Villanova the year before that too. And although there were no other contests against power conference teams, there were 4 FBS games during that run where we went 2-2. Not too shabby.

Still, I was just talking about PL/IL competition and there, I'm still not getting how you'd describe a 29-3 record?

[Lehigh'98]

^^^

Not wanting to be blasphemous, I never compared the recent Fordham squads to the HC ones of the '80s and early '90s. In fact, I made sure to say "Since the HC glory years" b/c I know this stuff eventually gets back to Sader 87! That said, yeah, I gotta give it up to your Hawkineers. Until reading your post and looking it up, I didn't realize Lehigh was that great in the late '90s and early '00s. I remember them being on par w/some good 'Gate teams of that same era but results show Lehigh was better. With 3 separate trips into the QF's, better than 2013-2016 Fordham too. So yeah, I gotta give it up there as well! Still, going back to my question,,, how is 29-3 not sheer dominance?

As for the non-PL/IL stuff, yup, that Nova loss was bad. So were those playoff games against power conference teams. So was the 2016 debacle against you guys. But we also beat you guys three straight years before that. Beat Villanova the year before that too. And although there were no other contests against power conference teams, there were 4 FBS games during that run where we went 2-2. Not too shabby.

Still, I was just talking about PL/IL competition and there, I'm still not getting how you'd describe a 29-3 record?

I had no idea you guys had that good of record through 2016. I always think of 13-14 as your best years. Kudos, that is a great stretch. Hopefully the good years continue, except against us.

[The Boogie Down]

Hopefully the good years continue, except against us.
By chance, this is exactly what I always say to Lehigh fans! xbeerchugx

[Twentysix]

The US Dept. of Ed published the latest athletic budget data earlier this week. Listed below are the football budgets for the PL schools.
Fordham's football budget increased a whopping $1 million year-over-year (from $6,003,614 to $7,060,178). Fordham's overall athletic budget increased by $2.5 million (from $30.6 million to $33.1 million).
When I first started tracking Fordham's athletic budget a few years before Fr. McShane was named university president, the University's overall athletic budget was a little over $3 million. There have been massive yearly budget increases under McShane's leadership, particularly the athletic scholarship budget (now at $14 million).

Fordham $7,060,178
Lafayette $6,581,062
Holy Cross $6,162,749
Colgate $5,899,143
Bucknell $5,672,257
Lehigh $5,301,592
Georgetown $2,117,506

Don't these seem really high? NDSU would be at the bottom of this conference and is the best program in fcs history. Ndsu is 4.7 million with only 200k covered by funding.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Don't these seem really high? NDSU would be at the bottom of this conference and is the best program in fcs history. Ndsu is 4.7 million with only 200k covered by funding.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

As others have said, the ridiculous cost of tuition at the PL schools accounts for a large chunk of the "budget". I also think the location of Fordham (NYC) and Holy Cross (Mass) simply makes doing business more expensive. Even so, huge budgets but no home playoff games against teams not named Sacred Heart?

There's no doubt these schools are not getting a very good ROI. That's why I think there could be some issues that bubble up if the results don't improve and the dangers of CTE increase. I believe the next 2-3 years will determine where the PL fits into the FCS landscape.

[Bill]

As others have said, the ridiculous cost of tuition at the PL schools accounts for a large chunk of the "budget". .

Yep.

NDSU – base tuition resident 7200/year. Out of state 19000/year

Lehigh - $50,740/ year. That’s just the tuition. Obviously, the other PL have these extortion level prices as well. An in-state ND kid could go to school for 7 years for the price of 1 year at Lehigh. To paraphrase the classic comedy “Tommy Boy”, we call them doctors.

And FYI - Counting room and board - BUCKNELL is actually the most expensive PL school...Fordham #2...but Holy Cross is actually the least expensive!!!

[DFW HOYA]

It's more like $4MM if you include room & board. The $2.8MMish is just tuition alone.

Even at $4M, Fordham spends more on its operational costs than Gerogetown spends on its entire budget (including equivalencies). Therein lies a problem.

[DFW HOYA]

IMO, there have been 2 periods of "sheer dominance" in the PL. Holy Cross from 1986-1991 and Lehigh from 1998-2001. You could could extend it out to 2005 with 8,8 and a 9 win Co-Champ/At-Large bid team in '04 and a 8-3 Top 25 team in '05. Colgate had a great stretch from 1996-2005 but there were some so-so records during that span. Fordham's stretch that you're referring to does not compare to the runs Holy Cross and Lehigh had.


And IMO, there have been 4 periods of "sheer struggle" in the PL:


1. Davidson (1987-88: 1-20, 0-7 CL): On paper,, a perfect liberal arts fit for the Last Amateurs, but both sides misunderstood how miscast Vic Gatto's teams were. The Wildcats entered the Colonial having lost 22 straight games in the SoCon and were unprepared for the Ivy/PL opponnets they picked up. In its first five games of 1987, DC was outscored 185-23 and lost 20 of 21 games over two seasons, with its only win against Division II Wofford, and one wonders how they would have fared against Holy Cross during their heyday, but the two schools never played. The Cats bailed on the Colonial after two seasons, and have never recovered since. In need of a quick replacement, the league turned to....


2. Fordham (1990-95: 9-53-1, 2-28 PL): Another team unprepared for the move. Fordham was cresting as a Div. III team in the late 1980's but the Larry Glueck era was grim. The Rams were somewhat competitive but lost 13 straight PL games from 1990-92, a result of under-spending on aid relative to other schools (not a problem now). Once Fordham figured out its floor for admission was lower than the other schools, Dave Clawson began the turnaround.


3. Georgetown (2006-09, 5-38, 1-23 PL): Georgetown got off to a rough start in 2001 but signs were promising Bob Benson was turning the corner in 2005. Benson was let go in favor of former Marshall DC and Navy assistant coach Kevin Kelly, and the Hoyas lost traction. Georgetown lost 23 of 24 PL games from 2006-09 and were routinely run off the field versus both PL and Ivy opponents (this recalls a three week run in 2007, losing 55-0 to Holy Cross, 45-7 to Cornell, and trailing Penn 28-0 after the first quarter at Franklin Field.) The 2009 season was Georgetown's first winless record in its 122 year varsity history. Georgetown began a brief turnaround when Dave Patenaude was OC but he left for Coastal Carolina and is now OC at Temple.


4. Georgetown (2016-present, 4-18, 0-12 PL): What's the old joke, "what would it take for a non-scholarship league to add scholarships? Seeing its last place team compete for the title." Such was the case after Georgetown's 8-3 run in 2011, whereupon the schools voted 6-1 (Georgetown the lone dissenting vote) to go to 60 scholarships. Since the other six moved to full strength, Georgetown has lost 18 of 19 games. Bad luck? Yes, a little--losing 7-0 to Lafayette was an opportunity lost, and most games are not routs. Nonetheless, Georgetown is not admitting the talent other schools are able to.


And therein lies a larger problem heading into what could well become an 0-11 season--Davidson notwithstanding, each of the other teams above were not that far away from competing on a somewhat level playing field. Now, the field is so uneven, Georgetown could double its budget and still be so far behind the other schools it couldn't get past last place under any good scenario. So then, what's the point of spending $4 million to finish in last place when $2 million will do just fine?

[Fordham]

That's a good question, DFW, and one we've been coming back to repeatedly for years. I agree with your last line that reminds me of that old MLB pre-free agency story from Branch Rickey to Ralph Kiner of "we can finish in last place without you."

I don't think Gtown would need to spend as much as the rest of us to be in the title hunt mix due to it's Ivy-like academic standing. It's still tough but offering 30 rides that could be divided up would allow you to at least get some amazing players on both sides of the ball imo. The other thing would be having the league eliminate the goofy AI rule. I don't expect either to happen anytime soon so let's pick this back up again in 2020.

[RichH2]

That's a good question, DFW, and one we've been coming back to repeatedly for years. I agree with your last line that reminds me of that old MLB pre-free agency story from Branch Rickey to Ralph Kiner of "we can finish in last place without you."

I don't think Gtown would need to spend as much as the rest of us to be in the title hunt mix due to it's Ivy-like academic standing. It's still tough but offering 30 rides that could be divided up would allow you to at least get some amazing players on both sides of the ball imo. The other thing would be having the league eliminate the goofy AI rule. I don't expect either to happen anytime soon so let's pick this back up again in 2020.

Proctive steps are not in our Presidents' wheelhouse at least as to football. Agree if Hoyas had 30 equivalencies they would be tough. Up to them.
For PL. Two actions come to mind that might help somewhat. First, AI rule was instituted to regulate the admission of low band players. Given GU's admission requirements, I would waive banding on their recruits. Second, I would except GU from the roster cap.

[Neighbor2]

Patriot League Presidents appear quite comfortable playing "lukewarm" football. It's every OTHER league that's making bad choices. I'm not sure how this situation improves, therefore my preference to fully embrace the chosen path and consider a year-ending Ivy/Patriot Cup as the big prize. Open up a regular FCS Playoff spot for another school.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And IMO, there have been 4 periods of "sheer struggle" in the PL:


1. Davidson (1987-88: 1-20, 0-7 CL): On paper,, a perfect liberal arts fit for the Last Amateurs, but both sides misunderstood how miscast Vic Gatto's teams were. The Wildcats entered the Colonial having lost 22 straight games in the SoCon and were unprepared for the Ivy/PL opponnets they picked up. In its first five games of 1987, DC was outscored 185-23 and lost 20 of 21 games over two seasons, with its only win against Division II Wofford, and one wonders how they would have fared against Holy Cross during their heyday, but the two schools never played. The Cats bailed on the Colonial after two seasons, and have never recovered since. In need of a quick replacement, the league turned to....


2. Fordham (1990-95: 9-53-1, 2-28 PL): Another team unprepared for the move. Fordham was cresting as a Div. III team in the late 1980's but the Larry Glueck era was grim. The Rams were somewhat competitive but lost 13 straight PL games from 1990-92, a result of under-spending on aid relative to other schools (not a problem now). Once Fordham figured out its floor for admission was lower than the other schools, Dave Clawson began the turnaround.


3. Georgetown (2006-09, 5-38, 1-23 PL): Georgetown got off to a rough start in 2001 but signs were promising Bob Benson was turning the corner in 2005. Benson was let go in favor of former Marshall DC and Navy assistant coach Kevin Kelly, and the Hoyas lost traction. Georgetown lost 23 of 24 PL games from 2006-09 and were routinely run off the field versus both PL and Ivy opponents (this recalls a three week run in 2007, losing 55-0 to Holy Cross, 45-7 to Cornell, and trailing Penn 28-0 after the first quarter at Franklin Field.) The 2009 season was Georgetown's first winless record in its 122 year varsity history. Georgetown began a brief turnaround when Dave Patenaude was OC but he left for Coastal Carolina and is now OC at Temple.


4. Georgetown (2016-present, 4-18, 0-12 PL): What's the old joke, "what would it take for a non-scholarship league to add scholarships? Seeing its last place team compete for the title." Such was the case after Georgetown's 8-3 run in 2011, whereupon the schools voted 6-1 (Georgetown the lone dissenting vote) to go to 60 scholarships. Since the other six moved to full strength, Georgetown has lost 18 of 19 games. Bad luck? Yes, a little--losing 7-0 to Lafayette was an opportunity lost, and most games are not routs. Nonetheless, Georgetown is not admitting the talent other schools are able to.


And therein lies a larger problem heading into what could well become an 0-11 season--Davidson notwithstanding, each of the other teams above were not that far away from competing on a somewhat level playing field. Now, the field is so uneven, Georgetown could double its budget and still be so far behind the other schools it couldn't get past last place under any good scenario. So then, what's the point of spending $4 million to finish in last place when $2 million will do just fine?

The stretch (2010-present) Lafayette is on has to be on a Top 5 list. I know there's 1 PL Champ in there but 8 straight losing seasons is epically bad imo.

[Fordham]

The stretch (2010-present) Lafayette is on has to be on a Top 5 list. I know there's 1 PL Champ in there but 8 straight losing seasons is epically bad imo.
it's not top 5/historically bad when you look at the others, though, unless you're a Lehigh fan wanting to rub it in. xnodx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

it's not top 5/historically bad when you look at the others, though, unless you're a Lehigh fan wanting to rub it in. xnodx

Well he did stop at 4 xlolx. There's not too many Top 4 lists so I figured I'd fill it out. Bucknell has some stretches that would make a strong case for 5th since they have but 1 PL Title in 32 years and several ugly records along the way.

DFW's post was great. An easy offseason talking point.....

[PAllen]

Proctive steps are not in our Presidents' wheelhouse at least as to football. Agree if Hoyas had 30 equivalencies they would be tough. Up to them.
For PL. Two actions come to mind that might help somewhat. First, AI rule was instituted to regulate the admission of low band players. Given GU's admission requirements, I would waive banding on their recruits. Second, I would except GU from the roster cap.


Instead of individual school banding, how about a league minimum for an AI?

[PAllen]

Patriot League Presidents appear quite comfortable playing "lukewarm" football. It's every OTHER league that's making bad choices. I'm not sure how this situation improves, therefore my preference to fully embrace the chosen path and consider a year-ending Ivy/Patriot Cup as the big prize. Open up a regular FCS Playoff spot for another school.

I hear you, but I also think that an Ivy/Pioneer Cup happens before the PL decides they want to move on an Ivy/PL cup.

[Go...gate]

And IMO, there have been 4 periods of "sheer struggle" in the PL:


1. Davidson (1987-88: 1-20, 0-7 CL): On paper,, a perfect liberal arts fit for the Last Amateurs, but both sides misunderstood how miscast Vic Gatto's teams were. The Wildcats entered the Colonial having lost 22 straight games in the SoCon and were unprepared for the Ivy/PL opponnets they picked up. In its first five games of 1987, DC was outscored 185-23 and lost 20 of 21 games over two seasons, with its only win against Division II Wofford, and one wonders how they would have fared against Holy Cross during their heyday, but the two schools never played. The Cats bailed on the Colonial after two seasons, and have never recovered since. In need of a quick replacement, the league turned to....


2. Fordham (1990-95: 9-53-1, 2-28 PL): Another team unprepared for the move. Fordham was cresting as a Div. III team in the late 1980's but the Larry Glueck era was grim. The Rams were somewhat competitive but lost 13 straight PL games from 1990-92, a result of under-spending on aid relative to other schools (not a problem now). Once Fordham figured out its floor for admission was lower than the other schools, Dave Clawson began the turnaround.


3. Georgetown (2006-09, 5-38, 1-23 PL): Georgetown got off to a rough start in 2001 but signs were promising Bob Benson was turning the corner in 2005. Benson was let go in favor of former Marshall DC and Navy assistant coach Kevin Kelly, and the Hoyas lost traction. Georgetown lost 23 of 24 PL games from 2006-09 and were routinely run off the field versus both PL and Ivy opponents (this recalls a three week run in 2007, losing 55-0 to Holy Cross, 45-7 to Cornell, and trailing Penn 28-0 after the first quarter at Franklin Field.) The 2009 season was Georgetown's first winless record in its 122 year varsity history. Georgetown began a brief turnaround when Dave Patenaude was OC but he left for Coastal Carolina and is now OC at Temple.


4. Georgetown (2016-present, 4-18, 0-12 PL): What's the old joke, "what would it take for a non-scholarship league to add scholarships? Seeing its last place team compete for the title." Such was the case after Georgetown's 8-3 run in 2011, whereupon the schools voted 6-1 (Georgetown the lone dissenting vote) to go to 60 scholarships. Since the other six moved to full strength, Georgetown has lost 18 of 19 games. Bad luck? Yes, a little--losing 7-0 to Lafayette was an opportunity lost, and most games are not routs. Nonetheless, Georgetown is not admitting the talent other schools are able to.


And therein lies a larger problem heading into what could well become an 0-11 season--Davidson notwithstanding, each of the other teams above were not that far away from competing on a somewhat level playing field. Now, the field is so uneven, Georgetown could double its budget and still be so far behind the other schools it couldn't get past last place under any good scenario. So then, what's the point of spending $4 million to finish in last place when $2 million will do just fine?

Colgate, 1991 - 95.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Colgate, 1991 - 95.

Wasn't Colgate 6-5 in 1991? Even if they were I still have no idea how they beat Lehigh that year. The then Engineers were 2 points away from being undefeated in 1991. That was easily Lehigh's best team during the "obscurity era". The '91 team ultimately had 5-6 guys that made it into NFL camps iirc.

[Go...gate]

Wasn't Colgate 6-5 in 1991? Even if they were I still have no idea how they beat Lehigh that year. The then Engineers were 2 points away from being undefeated in 1991. That was easily Lehigh's best team during the "obscurity era". The '91 team ultimately had 5-6 guys that made it into NFL camps iirc.

4-7 and it went further downhill from there.

Colgate's program actually went into a steep decline between 1988 and 1995 (with one exception, a 7-4 record in 1990).

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

4-7 and it went further downhill from there.

Colgate's program actually went into a steep decline between 1988 and 1995 (with one exception, a 7-4 record in 1990).

And that's the year Lehigh hung half-a-hundred on Colgate! I was at the game in 1990. Didn't venture up to Hamilton to see the loss. Makes the win in '91 an even bigger upset. Lehigh was loaded that year and backed it up with some impressive wins. The Colgate game came after a brutal stretch against Holy Cross and W&M. Those were two insanely emotional games. Mark Lookenbill but forth an epic performance against the Tribe in that win. And look! A Hank Small team that could play reasonable defense!

1991 (9-2)
at Fordham W, 32-7
at Connecticut W, 35-19
at Columbia W, 22-9
Dartmouth W, 30-28 - Top 25 Jay Fiedler Dartmouth
Northeastern W, 35-22
Penn W, 28-17
Holy Cross L, 42-43
Wm.&Mary W, 41-37
at Colgate L, 21-22
at Bucknell W, 41-13
Lafayette W, 36-18

[The Boogie Down]

And IMO, there have been 4 periods of "sheer struggle" in the PL:


1. Davidson (1987-88: 1-20, 0-7 CL): On paper,, a perfect liberal arts fit for the Last Amateurs, but both sides misunderstood how miscast Vic Gatto's teams were. The Wildcats entered the Colonial having lost 22 straight games in the SoCon and were unprepared for the Ivy/PL opponnets they picked up. In its first five games of 1987, DC was outscored 185-23 and lost 20 of 21 games over two seasons, with its only win against Division II Wofford, and one wonders how they would have fared against Holy Cross during their heyday, but the two schools never played. The Cats bailed on the Colonial after two seasons, and have never recovered since. In need of a quick replacement, the league turned to....


2. Fordham (1990-95: 9-53-1, 2-28 PL): Another team unprepared for the move. Fordham was cresting as a Div. III team in the late 1980's but the Larry Glueck era was grim. The Rams were somewhat competitive but lost 13 straight PL games from 1990-92, a result of under-spending on aid relative to other schools (not a problem now). Once Fordham figured out its floor for admission was lower than the other schools, Dave Clawson began the turnaround.


3. Georgetown (2006-09, 5-38, 1-23 PL): Georgetown got off to a rough start in 2001 but signs were promising Bob Benson was turning the corner in 2005. Benson was let go in favor of former Marshall DC and Navy assistant coach Kevin Kelly, and the Hoyas lost traction. Georgetown lost 23 of 24 PL games from 2006-09 and were routinely run off the field versus both PL and Ivy opponents (this recalls a three week run in 2007, losing 55-0 to Holy Cross, 45-7 to Cornell, and trailing Penn 28-0 after the first quarter at Franklin Field.) The 2009 season was Georgetown's first winless record in its 122 year varsity history. Georgetown began a brief turnaround when Dave Patenaude was OC but he left for Coastal Carolina and is now OC at Temple.


4. Georgetown (2016-present, 4-18, 0-12 PL): What's the old joke, "what would it take for a non-scholarship league to add scholarships? Seeing its last place team compete for the title." Such was the case after Georgetown's 8-3 run in 2011, whereupon the schools voted 6-1 (Georgetown the lone dissenting vote) to go to 60 scholarships. Since the other six moved to full strength, Georgetown has lost 18 of 19 games. Bad luck? Yes, a little--losing 7-0 to Lafayette was an opportunity lost, and most games are not routs. Nonetheless, Georgetown is not admitting the talent other schools are able to.


And therein lies a larger problem heading into what could well become an 0-11 season--Davidson notwithstanding, each of the other teams above were not that far away from competing on a somewhat level playing field. Now, the field is so uneven, Georgetown could double its budget and still be so far behind the other schools it couldn't get past last place under any good scenario. So then, what's the point of spending $4 million to finish in last place when $2 million will do just fine?



Always cool reading a DFW post but I think there was a major difference between Fordham’s "sheer struggle” era and the ones coming outta Davidson and Georgetown. All things being equal in terms of losses, subpar talent and suspect administrative support, there was still the matter of the gate. That's what ultimately gages fan interest and lets an administration know a program is worth supporting. Of course it’s hard building fan interest without wins and it’s hard winning without a helpful administration but ultimately fan commitment must come first. That’s what both Davidson and Georgetown have lacked since,,, jeez, who knows when? Without that as a foundation, even schools that did win a lot and did have great facilities, like Hofstra, eventually closed shop.


To me, a major reason Fordham did turn things around was in part b/c alums demanded more. Unfortunately, things seem much more apathetic w/Hoya alums. Not only are the stands (well, wherever stands still exist) empty but I’d bet there are a few grads who aren’t even aware Georgetown has a football team! A better question than “What's the point of spending $4 million to finish in last place when $2 million will do just fine?” is “Why spend anything at all when no one shows up to any of these games?” Not that Fordham was ever a league leader in attendance but this was never really a long-term problem at Rose Hill. Even during Fordham’s worst of times they were still outdrawing Georgetown. Davidson too. Even then I’d bet the least knowledgeable football follower on campus (the Rose Hill one at least) was still aware of the fact that Vince Lombardi once wore maroon. And for those like me who actually went to games, you’d learn a lot more than just Lombardi.


I was a student during that era of sheer struggle and remember when attendance hovered at around the 2,500 mark. But within that small bubble were proud alums. Just anecdotally now, but once I was sitting next to a guy who had played on Fordham’s 1942 team (the one after the Sugar Bowl winning team, something he was still sore about) and got to hear tons of “back-in-the-day” stories. Much more recently I sat near a guy who played on the 1950 team and whose daughter drove him all the way up from Maryland to sit in the cold for a Fordham playoffs game. During the many years in-between I’ve met others who played on clubs that still had followings comparable to the Football Giants. To this day I share an email correspondence with a member of the 1954 freshman team. All these decades later and there are still “old-timers” following Rams football. Even the late, great Al Barbartsky, one of the last of the Seven Blocks of Granite was excited enough to return to Rose Hill and check out a practice when Fordham finally got good again in 2002.


Lots of anecdotes I know but generally speaking I’d say alumni support has always been strong. As for the students, well, I was there during an apathetic blip in time but apparently Fordham did draw an average of over 4,000 per game during their introductory I-AA seasons. By 2000 they had returned to that average and for the most part stayed there until Moorhead came along. The excitement he brought saw home numbers climb to over 6,000 per game as for the first time ever Fordham had a need to open the baseball bleachers for football contests. Attendance dipped a bit in 2016 but that didn't include the 21,000+ who came out to see the Rams/Crusaders scrum at Yankee Stadium. Not quite the nearly 50,000 who came out to see Lafayette-Lehigh 150, but still a far cry from the smattering of 3,000 or so at RFK for Georgetown/Harvard.


Anyway, I get that the hoops-loving administration down in DC does its best to restrict football. They have no problems handicapping their own program against most of the FCS world. Guessing the same is true at Davidson. After all that administration apparently searches the internet for online schools to collect their football victories. So yeah, both football programs are stuck in the dumpster. But, especially in the case of Georgetown, where’s the alumni? Where’s their money? Where’s the students? When will there ever be enough pressure to get the administration to change course? No matter how long the school drags its feet, Georgetown's new stadium will eventually get built. It won’t look as nice as once promised, or re-promised, but I guess one day it will be a reality. So on the one hand that’s something to look forward to. On the other hand, without fans, what’s the point?

[DFW HOYA]

Great post. Some responses.

1. "Of course it’s hard building fan interest without wins and it’s hard winning without a helpful administration but ultimately fan commitment must come first." Agreed. But contrary to prevailing wisdom, Georgetown's administration has been very supportive in terms of providing them a pre-scholarship base of financial aid support, but can't justify the financial boost given competing requirements in the Big East. Georgetown was seriously deficient in the Big East for years over team funding and those issues took precedent over football.

2. "Not only are the stands (well, wherever stands still exist) empty but I’d bet there are a few grads who aren’t even aware Georgetown has a football team!" Unless you're over the age of 76, or are a grad/law student who never sees the campus to begin with, you were at Georgetown when football was played. While 2,000 a game is resolutely poor, it represents 80 percent of the capacity, and also reflects an inconvenient truth that Harbin/MSF/Cooper Field lacks no basic comforts to watch a modern college game, and many grads simply find better things to do on a Saturday. Video board? Forget it. Restrooms? Get in line at the porta-johns. Local radio coverage? Nothing. Not even the campus station covers the Hoyas anymore.

By comparison, the much larger crowd that attended the Harvard game at RFK (never mind the sandbagged attendance numbers) suggest that if you give people a product, they will respond, but the ceaseless drumbeat of losing seasons don't help, nor do the relatively low wattage of competition. That's not a slight on the PL, but Georgetown alumni have grown up with a steady diet of Syracuse, Villanova and UConn for 40 years and have little or no awareness to names like Bucknell and Lafayette. Most wouldn't know Lewisburg from Easton because most Georgetown students are from outside the Northeast.

3. "Even during Fordham’s worst of times they were still outdrawing Georgetown. Davidson too." Again, it's a matter of capacity. Could Georgetown have drawn better with a 10,000 seat stadium and more than a few hundred surface parking spots? I think so. And Davidson, for all its flaws, draws remarkably well. In 2017, with generations of bad football, Davidson still drew 3,529 a game...more than Bucknell did.

4. "That didn't include the 21,000+ who came out to see the Rams/Crusaders scrum at Yankee Stadium. Not quite the nearly 50,000 who came out to see Lafayette-Lehigh 150, but still a far cry from the smattering of 3,000 or so at RFK for Georgetown/Harvard." Again, don't buy the number published for that game. I was there and would conservatively say there were 8-9,000 at a facility which is one step away from code demolition--they don't even paint the rust visible from the freeway leading into the facility. A game at RFK in 2017 is like going to the Polo Grounds in 1962--there is no commitment to making it any better or worse than it was. (And for FWIW, the last incarnation of the Polo Grounds was 52 years old when it was condemned in 1963. By comparison, RFK Stadium is 57 years old, built in 1961.)

See this 2014 story for effect, and remember, this was four years ago.

"After 53 years, you can expect a little wear and tear, but El Tiempo Latino Sports Editor Miguel Guillarte didn’t expect the stadium to literally fall apart while he was there Wednesday night covering the Guatemala vs. El Salvador soccer match...Then, suddenly, a big chunk of concrete dislodged from a stadium overhang and fell with a thud onto a ledge, just in front of Guillarte and other reporters in the press box."

http://wjla.com/sports/washington-nationals/rfk-stadium-is-crumbling-residents-want-new-structure-106781

Thumbs up for Fordham fans interested in going to a great facility at Yankee Stadium to see Holy Cross. But Holy Cross is never going to draw 21,000 in DC, it just isn't. Georgetown needs an opponent to sell tickets and frankly, it isn't Harvard, either. Maybe Villanova, maybe JMU, maybe one of the academies, who knows, but they aren't calling. Who's the big home game this year? Campbell? Columbia?

5. "But, especially in the case of Georgetown, where’s the alumni? Where’s their money? Where’s the students?" In no particular order: 1) Alumni have lost interest as the fortunes of men's basketball have declined. Average attendance at men's basketball games has fallen 42 percent since 2011 and 17 percent in the last two seasons alone. 2) Football alumni support the team well but due to an internecine rule in Georgetown fundraising, once someone gives to a program they cannot be cross-solicited by another. If you give to the law school, for example, football can't send you another solicitation. 3) Where are the students? They sit at home, because they know no better. In their lifetimes, Georgetown has one winning season and that's when they were in 4th grade.

Facilities will help, but I will be disappointed in the half-loaf that Cooper Field will become, because I saw what it could have been. But in the end, it comes down to product--a truth not unlike what Fordham basketball faces. An 18 year old sitting in McKeon or Martyrs' Court has no interest in hearing about the glory days of Digger Phelps or Charlie Yelverton or even Damon Lopez and Smush Parker for that matter. They just know basketball isn't very good, the opponents aren't very good, and they'll find other things to follow.

[PAllen]

DFW, if it's really going to take home games against AAC opponents to turn GU football around, then those who want to keep the program going need to look into forming a conference with schools like Davidson, St.FU, Duquesne, and Dayton.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, if it's really going to take home games against AAC opponents to turn GU football around, then those who want to keep the program going need to look into forming a conference with schools like Davidson, St.FU, Duquesne, and Dayton.

I didn't mention AAC opponents, but I do know that Lehigh (and sometimes Lafayette) are about the only PL teams that consistently bring crowds to Washington anymore. It's an eight hour drive from Hamilton and Worcester, and that isn't practical with a 1 pm start. Maybe that's why, in part, the visitor stands have been removed from Cooper Field plans.

[PAllen]

I didn't mention AAC opponents, but I do know that Lehigh (and sometimes Lafayette) are about the only PL teams that consistently bring crowds to Washington anymore. It's an eight hour drive from Hamilton and Worcester, and that isn't practical with a 1 pm start. Maybe that's why, in part, the visitor stands have been removed from Cooper Field plans.

"Syracuse, Villanova and UConn". You are correct, 'cuse is now in the ACC. Honestly, if you don't build a decent stadium, nobody with any fan following will come and play you. I've been to your place three times for games since you've been in the PL, once on the rooftop, once in the now demolished home stands, and once on the visitor side. It's the worst fan experience I've ever been a part of. The decrepit visitor stands surrounded by Lehigh fans was the best of the experience, but even that was just sad. It seems that the best you can hope for is something akin to Rooney Field. If that's your goal, then clamoring for even middle name teams to come and play you is a waste of effort. Lehigh's practice field has had better stands than Cooper Field now has. There's no way JMU is coming to town more than once.

[DFW HOYA]

"Syracuse, Villanova and UConn". You are correct, 'cuse is now in the ACC. Honestly, if you don't build a decent stadium, nobody with any fan following will come and play you. I've been to your place three times for games since you've been in the PL, once on the rooftop, once in the now demolished home stands, and once on the visitor side. It's the worst fan experience I've ever been a part of. The decrepit visitor stands surrounded by Lehigh fans was the best of the experience, but even that was just sad. It seems that the best you can hope for is something akin to Rooney Field. If that's your goal, then clamoring for even middle name teams to come and play you is a waste of effort. Lehigh's practice field has had better stands than Cooper Field now has. There's no way JMU is coming to town more than once.

If better schools were to appear on the schedule, I'd prefer they be played here.

https://www.audifielddc.com/

[The Boogie Down]

Not sure how one makes a Damon Lopez reference and (in another thread) a Leo McLaughlin one too without being a Fordham guy, but either way, pretty awesome to read on an FCS site! Less so for the dump known as Martyrs’ Court although point well taken on the post-Lopez/Herzog/Prioleau disaster that has been Fordham hoops and its current lack of popularity.

Speaking of dumps/disasters, I had no idea that RFK is older now than the Polo Grounds during the NY Titans era so I’ll cut Georgetown some slack on attendance there (although not sure why’d they’d purposely under report) but I’m still wondering what needs to happen to get Georgetown truly interested in Georgetown football…


Some Q's:


1) If keeping up with other Big East members at olympic sports is currently taking priority over football, when do you see football’s needs getting addressed?


2) Any realistic chance that would one day include going to 60 scholarships?


3) Any realistic chance that something better than another Rooney Field gets built?

4) Any realistic chance of Georgetown getting some/all home games at DC United's new digs?

5) If-if-if the football playing schools of the A-10 and Big East ever got together to form a new league (not sure how PFL members, Butler, Dayton and especially Davidson, would fit in), would that get Georgetown interested in football?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me just state for the record that DFW was right about how bad Fordham football was when they first joined the PL. When I was an undergrad they were some of the least interesting games on the schedule because they were the home opener and they were still making the transition from D-II (I think, or maybe D-III). It took them some years to awaken the giant.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Let me just state for the record that DFW was right about how bad Fordham football was when they first joined the PL. When I was an undergrad they were some of the least interesting games on the schedule because they were the home opener and they were still making the transition from D-II (I think, or maybe D-III). It took them some years to awaken the giant.

Outside of the 1992 season opener against the Rams you're right! Fordham was horrific until Clawson came onboard.

[Fordham]

Easy fellas

[PAllen]

If better schools were to appear on the schedule, I'd prefer they be played here.

https://www.audifielddc.com/

Do you really think that Hoya fans are going to make the trek across town for a JMU or Villanova game? Might as well offer to play the game at JMU and split the gate.