"I'll take teams you shouldn't vote for" for 500, Alex

[PantherRob82]

Answer: Who is losing to Sacred Heart 26-14 with less than 4 minutes left (apparently in the 3rd quarter)?

"Who is Dartmouth?"

Anyone else that needs to be given the boot this week?

[POD Knows]

Answer: Who is losing to Sacred Heart 26-14 with less than 4 minutes left?

"Who is Dartmouth?"

Anyone else that needs to be given the boot this week?Good, then there won't be any more discussions about those Ivy asshats in the poll.

[PantherRob82]

Dartmouth scored to pull it within 5 and looks like they will get the ball back.

[Professor Chaos]

The other undefeated Ivy (Columbia) is also losing to Penn at the half.

[PantherRob82]

Dartmouth up 3 with 12:19 left in the game.

[POD Knows]

Dartmouth up 3 with 12:19 left in the game.****

[PantherRob82]

****

Let's face it, they could win this game by 1 and people would vote for them because they are undefeated

[POD Knows]

Let's face it, they could win this game by 1 and people would vote for them because they are undefeatedYea, I still won't vote for them

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I will happily continue to vote for Dartmouth if they win! They haven't loss an OOC game in like 4 years. Sometimes you just have to survive....

[PantherRob82]

I will happily continue to vote for Dartmouth if they win! They haven't loss an OOC game in like 4 years. Sometimes you just have to survive....

Why not? All great teams struggle to put away Sacred Heart...

[PantherRob82]

UNI is up 17-0 on SDSU. I might not vote for the Jacks this week. WTF.

[LehighU11]

Didn't lower-tier NEC Wagner nearly beat perennial FCS contender EWU on the road in a playoff game several years ago? I'd consider Darmouth's OOC record over past years and their unblemished record this year as a good indicator of form.

I consider an undefeated Ivy or NEC to be more deserving of a vote in the 20-25 range than a MVFC or CAA squad with a losing record 5-6 games into the season.

[PantherRob82]

Didn't lower-tier NEC Wagner nearly beat perennial FCS contender EWU on the road in a playoff game several years ago? I'd consider Darmouth's OOC record over past years and their unblemished record this year as a good indicator of form.

I consider an undefeated Ivy or NEC to be more deserving of a vote in the 20-25 range than a MVFC or CAA squad with a losing record 5-6 games into the season.

But it's just an exercise of mental masturbation since we'll never know if an Ivy League team is worth voting for. An undefeated NEC team at this point has probably beaten someone of interest.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Vote for Dartmouth because Swede Oberlander.

[PantherRob82]

NCAT finished the 1st quarter tied at 7 against FAMU. Could the Aggies fall today?

[PantherRob82]

Still voting for Illinois State? Down 21-0 to Southern Illinois.

[LehighU11]

Watch Columbia on Twitter (no joke) right now for justification of a top 25 vote if they beat Penn. From what I've seen, they're a far more complete team than any PL team over the past few years (no contest for the miserable PL teams this year). If they go to 5-0, they are worth consideration of a vote.

[PantherRob82]

Watch Columbia on Twitter (no joke) right now for justification of a top 25 vote if they beat Penn. From what I've seen, they're a far more complete team than any PL team over the past few years (no contest for the miserable PL teams this year). If they go to 5-0, they are worth consideration of a vote.

With that SOS how could you not vote for them? A 3 point win over Wagner! 4pts over Princeton and POUNDING perennial powers Georgetown and Marist. xrolleyesx

[TheKingpin28]

Anyone who is voting for an IVY is failing. What have they done this season to deserve a vote?

[LehighU11]

Anyone who is voting for an IVY is failing. What have they done this season to deserve a vote?

They've all beaten the hell out of the entire PL, which has seen 3 different teams in the top 25 this season. The Ivy League is 17-6 OOC.

[Bison56]

Watch Columbia on Twitter (no joke) right now for justification of a top 25 vote if they beat Penn. From what I've seen, they're a far more complete team than any PL team over the past few years (no contest for the miserable PL teams this year). If they go to 5-0, they are worth consideration of a vote.

xlolx what else can I say?

[TheKingpin28]

They've all beaten the hell out of the entire PL, which has seen 3 different teams in the top 25 this season. The Ivy League is 17-6 OOC.

Patriot League, the same league which has their best team at 2-4 and 11-29 overall? Wow! You are right! I should be only voting for the Ivies from now on.

[LehighU11]

Patriot League, the same league which has their best team at 2-4 and 11-29 overall? Wow! You are right! I should be only voting for the Ivies from now on.

I'm realistic about the PL's strength every year, especially this miserable one. Lehigh went 9-2 last year in the regular season with 1 score losses to Villanova and Monmouth. Most voters had them in the 15-low 20s last year entering the playoffs, as did I.

From watching plenty of Ivy League games over 10 years, I can tell you that the top Ivies are every bit as good as the best PL school each year. This year's Ivy League is even better than past years, with Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Princeton, Harvard, and Yale all fielding strong squads. Yale is perhaps the #5 Ivy. They trounced Lehigh and Holy Cross 32-0 today. Holy Cross beat UNH and nearly beat UConn.

Dismissing the Ivy League entirely is being ignorant. Nothing less.

[Schism55]

They've all beaten the hell out of the entire PL, which has seen 3 different teams in the top 25 this season. The Ivy League is 17-6 OOC.
****ing LOL
Apparently you've missed the thread on this forum entitled "Entire Patriot league off to horrendous start"
GTFO here with that shyte

[PantherRob82]

I'm realistic about the PL's strength every year, especially this miserable one. Lehigh went 9-2 last year in the regular season with 1 score losses to Villanova and Monmouth. Most voters had them in the 15-low 20s last year entering the playoffs, as did I.

From watching plenty of Ivy League games over 10 years, I can tell you that the top Ivies are every bit as good as the best PL school each year. This year's Ivy League is even better than past years, with Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Princeton, Harvard, and Yale all fielding strong squads. Yale is perhaps the #5 Ivy. They trounced Lehigh and Holy Cross 32-0 today. Holy Cross beat UNH and nearly beat UConn.

Dismissing the Ivy League entirely is being ignorant. Nothing less.

Not playing anyone is ignorant. I’ve given plenty of love to PL and MEAC this year, but none of the teams the Ivy has played have done anything. Yale trounced Holy Cross who has completely fallen off since beating a UNH team that we are unsure of.

[TheKingpin28]

I'm realistic about the PL's strength every year, especially this miserable one. Lehigh went 9-2 last year in the regular season with 1 score losses to Villanova and Monmouth. Most voters had them in the 15-low 20s last year entering the playoffs, as did I.

From watching plenty of Ivy League games over 10 years, I can tell you that the top Ivies are every bit as good as the best PL school each year. This year's Ivy League is even better than past years, with Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Princeton, Harvard, and Yale all fielding strong squads. Yale is perhaps the #5 Ivy. They trounced Lehigh and Holy Cross 32-0 today. Holy Cross beat UNH and nearly beat UConn.

Dismissing the Ivy League entirely is being ignorant. Nothing less.

You mean the strict 10 game schedule where they won't play in the playoffs due to "academic interference" yet participate in the March Madness and then won't travel west to the Valley or Big Sky? Yeah, I am being ignorant towards that.

[PantherRob82]

You mean the strict 10 game schedule where they won't play in the playoffs due to "academic interference" yet participate in the March Madness and then won't travel west to the Valley or Big Sky? Yeah, I am being ignorant towards that.

Yale did play Cal Poly.

- - - Updated - - -

If an Ivy was undefeated and even beat a top 40 team I would vote for them.

[TheKingpin28]

Yale did play Cal Poly.

- - - Updated - - -

If an Ivy was undefeated and even beat a top 40 team I would vote for them.

2013? So 5 seasons ago? I give them credit for that. The problem is, the Ivies play the same rotations and those teams are not consistently good, so that is why I rag on them.

[KPSUL]

Let's face it, they could win this game by 1 and people would vote for them because they are undefeated
No. It will be because they beat Yale and Penn, and they did NOT lose to SHU.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You either respect the Ivy League or you don't. Some do, some don't. People will never agree on the topic,.....

[TheKingpin28]

You either respect the Ivy League or you don't. Some do, some don't. People will never agree on the topic,.....

They play in March Madness but won't play in the FCS playoffs due to "academic calendar issues". The hypocrisy coming from them is classic, but when are the Ivies not being hypocritical on anything?

[PantherRob82]

You either respect the Ivy League or you don't. Some do, some don't. People will never agree on the topic,.....

I disagree. The IL has some pretty good OOC games scheduled. They might all be Yale, but still.

[PantherRob82]

Sam Houston down 10-7 to NW St with the Demons on the SHSU 6. xlolx

[nevadagriz]

I thought this was about SDSU

[RowdyRabbit]

I thought this was about SDSU

Me too.

[PantherRob82]

SDSU is definitely a headscratcher.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

They play in March Madness but won't play in the FCS playoffs due to "academic calendar issues". The hypocrisy coming from them is classic, but when are the Ivies not being hypocritical on anything?

Ding ding!

You just won double Jeopardy.

[Mattymc727]

Using UNH as a barometer... hahaha. Not good for northeast football

[PantherRob82]

Using UNH as a barometer... hahaha. Not good for northeast football

UNH has a tendency to be tough to figure out.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

But it's just an exercise of mental masturbation since we'll never know if an Ivy League team is worth voting for. An undefeated NEC team at this point has probably beaten someone of interest.

This

[nevadagriz]

Me too.

No offense to the rabbits I have not seen the reason for them being ranked top ten. Wins over Drake, Duquesne and a close victory or Msu did not scream top ten

[Mattymc727]

UNH has a tendency to be tough to figure out.

UNH is classic case of just doing enough to build a good program. Coach Mac and others have built a program that works hard. However, other than a couple golden opportunities, can’t make it very far. These kids aren’t that fast, strong, or big. Due to the location we should win 7 games, but we ain’t winning anything beyond that.

Since 2014, UNH has been VERY overrated. Funny you ask, I’d compare them to UNI. Only difference is UNI can’t make it through the MVFC gauntlet, UNH can win 7-8 in the CAA.

[FUBeAR]

No offense to the rabbits I have not seen the reason for them being ranked top ten. Wins over Drake, Duquesne and a close victory or Msu did not scream top ten

DING! DING! DING!

[Professor Chaos]

No offense to the rabbits I have not seen the reason for them being ranked top ten. Wins over Drake, Duquesne and a close victory or Msu did not scream top ten
I think rabbit fans will be the first to tell you they belong nowhere near the top 10.

[Thumper 76]

SDSU is definitely a headscratcher.
Ya ****ing think?


I’m the “sandbagger”. It’s not sandbagging if you’re right and everyone else is a dumbass xcoffeex

No offense to the rabbits I have not seen the reason for them being ranked top ten. Wins over Drake, Duquesne and a close victory or Msu did not scream top ten
It’s not offensive if it’s true, the only offensive thing I’ve seen from the Jacks this year is how they play...

I think rabbit fans will be the first to tell you they belong nowhere near the top 10.

Correct, we are garbage xohnox


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[woffordgrad94]

Everyone who went to an Ivy League School is smarter than me and will make more cash and have a better life than me. I accept this and you should too. They could give a rat’s betootie if you vote for them in some message board football poll or not. Or respect them. Or think they’re hypocrites. If they get enough money they will end up boinking the hottest girls, and isn’t that REALLY what life is about? :D;)

[Catatonic]

Answer: Who is losing to Sacred Heart 26-14 with less than 4 minutes left (apparently in the 3rd quarter)?

"Who is Dartmouth?"

Anyone else that needs to be given the boot this week?

I have voted for Ivy League schools in previous years. This year I have taken a different tact.

Dartmouth might be legit. Or not. The incestuous scheduling of the Ivy League and their unwillingness to participate in post season play make it impossible to judge the relative value of an undefeated season.

No vote from me even if they do keep on winning.

[WestCoastAggie]

So who had the worst win this weekend: A&T, UCA, or Sam Houston?

[UNIFanSince1983]

So who had the worst win this weekend: A&T, UCA, or Sam Houston?

SHSU for sure. NWSt. is awful.

[PantherRob82]

So who had the worst win this weekend: A&T, UCA, or Sam Houston?

You guys finished better than you started. Definitely one of the SLC teams.

[ASU33]

So who had the worst win this weekend: A&T, UCA, or Sam Houston?


I knew not to expect an impressive win by you guys this week. It is not easy to beat the Rattlers down there for homecoming. Many great teams have gone down there and struggled when its FAMUs homecoming.

[Redbird007]

Still voting for Illinois State? Down 21-0 to Southern Illinois.

Illinois State is one of the most overrated teams this season. Will be interesting to see them and SDSU play as someone has to win.

[Professor Chaos]

Who is New Hampshire?

Seriously, I tried to keep them in my top 25 but their loss to Holy Cross is by far the worst loss on the schedule of any team even considered in my top 25. On top of that their only wins that you can even attempt to classify as quality are a 1 point home squeaker over 2-3 Maine and a 10 point win over maybe the worst team in the FBS (Georgia Southern). Their loss to Stony Brook yesterday was enough for me to drop them completely out of my top 25.

[TheKingpin28]

I took them out of mine.

[PantherRob82]

Who is New Hampshire?

Seriously, I tried to keep them in my top 25 but their loss to Holy Cross is by far the worst loss on the schedule of any team even considered in my top 25. On top of that their only wins that you can even attempt to classify as quality are a 1 point home squeaker over 2-3 Maine and a 10 point win over maybe the worst team in the FBS (Georgia Southern). Their loss to Stony Brook yesterday was enough for me to drop them completely out of my top 25.

They barely made mine, but I struggled juggling teams at the end.

[POD Knows]

They barely made mine, but I struggled juggling teams at the end.I kept them in mine, but they aren't in the top 20, poll was brutal this week.

[Reign of Terrier]

It's the mid point of the season. I think it's going to be easier to rank teams after this week, because you can just look at the record and SOS. There's a lot of speculation on the fringes for the first month, but I think it's safe to say at this point if you have 4 losses you shouldn't be in, and if you have 3 losses it's speculative upon the SOS.

[PantherRob82]

It's the mid point of the season. I think it's going to be easier to rank teams after this week, because you can just look at the record and SOS. There's a lot of speculation on the fringes for the first month, but I think it's safe to say at this point if you have 4 losses you shouldn't be in, and if you have 3 losses it's speculative upon the SOS.

You seem to be the only person who thinks this way. Everyone else talks about how difficult of a time they are having. If SOS is a factor it's pretty easy to keep some of the undefeated or one loss teams out.

[TheKingpin28]

You seem to be the only person who thinks this way. Everyone else talks about how difficult of a time they are having. If SOS is a factor it's pretty easy to keep some of the undefeated or one loss teams out.

I damn near punched my computer based off of how hard it has been to do this poll. Between 6-10, I felt dirty and from 18-28 I felt disgusted. This is how I see it:

1-3: Obvious, but in what order?
4: This team just keeps winning and no one is "stepping" up.
5: IMO, slightly obvious, but will people look past a "record" and see their schedule instead?
6-10: A giant cluster**** of potential contenders and pretenders.
11-17: CAA, MVFC and SoCon teams (plus NCAT) vying for position for December football.
18-19: A Hot and Cold MVFC and CAA team.
20-22: The "2nd" rung of Big Sky teams.
23-27/28: Where fluidity occurs and I need more information.

[Reign of Terrier]

You seem to be the only person who thinks this way. Everyone else talks about how difficult of a time they are having. If SOS is a factor it's pretty easy to keep some of the undefeated or one loss teams out.

Well I'm just saying it's totally okay to have placeholders at this point in the season. There are a lot of teams that have shown promise but have had a tough schedule and a lot of teams that haven't shown promise but are still sitting at <2 losses.

We're trying to solve a puzzle where we don't have all the pieces.

Looking at the AGS top 25, the teams that I think deserve consideration from the ORV's (and I'm just looking at records, not SOS) are Kennesaw, Eastern Illinois, NC Central, and Monmouth.

Going a step deeper and looking into SOS I'd also understand considering Nichols and Furman. Furman has 4 losses, but of the other ORV their aggregate performance I think has been most impressive. I know Nichols has a bad loss, but those games happen. I wouldn't rank either of those teams yet but if they will next week they should be considered.

As for dropping people out of the top 25, I think the only team worth dropping from it all together is Illinois state, given their back-to-back poor performances. I would drop Villanova, Weber, New Hampshire and SDSU to the 20s, and Youngstown to the top 15.

I'll admit when I first made my original comment I didn't actually look at the rankings, but right now they seem pretty cut-and-dry. We can make harsher judgments about teams for bad losses and officially be skeptical of teams with 3 losses (sans Youngstown)

[PantherRob82]

Well I'm just saying it's totally okay to have placeholders at this point in the season. There are a lot of teams that have shown promise but have had a tough schedule and a lot of teams that haven't shown promise but are still sitting at <2 losses.

We're trying to solve a puzzle where we don't have all the pieces.

Looking at the AGS top 25, the teams that I think deserve consideration from the ORV's (and I'm just looking at records, not SOS) are Kennesaw, Eastern Illinois, NC Central, and Monmouth.

Going a step deeper and looking into SOS I'd also understand considering Nichols and Furman. Furman has 4 losses, but of the other ORV their aggregate performance I think has been most impressive. I know Nichols has a bad loss, but those games happen. I wouldn't rank either of those teams yet but if they will next week they should be considered.

As for dropping people out of the top 25, I think the only team worth dropping from it all together is Illinois state, given their back-to-back poor performances. I would drop Villanova, Weber, New Hampshire and SDSU to the 20s, and Youngstown to the top 15.

I'll admit when I first made my original comment I didn't actually look at the rankings, but right now they seem pretty cut-and-dry. We can make harsher judgments about teams for bad losses and officially be skeptical of teams with 3 losses (sans Youngstown)

KSU has beaten 2 SWAC teams and a D-II.
Eastern Illinois lost by 35 to that Illinois State team you talked about dropping from the poll.
NCCU lost to Duke by 53 and hasn't beaten anyone.
Monmouth lost to the Albany team you've been arguing against and their wins are against 4 PL teams and a MEAC in OT

*Furman has 3 losses.

I laugh at dropping YSU to 15ish when they lost to two Top 5 teams by a FG and an FBS opponent.

[TheKingpin28]

KSU has beaten 2 SWAC teams and a D-II.
Eastern Illinois lost by 35 to that Illinois State team you talked about dropping from the poll.
NCCU lost to Duke by 53 and hasn't beaten anyone.
Monmouth lost to the Albany team you've been arguing against and their wins are against 4 PL teams and a MEAC in OT

*Furman has 3 losses.

I laugh at dropping YSU to 15ish when they lost to two Top 5 teams by a FG and an FBS opponent.

Anyone who drops YSU out of the top 10 has some serious explaining to do. All the other ones would irk me, but dropping YSU out of the top 10 is evidence that someone is being lazy and slot voting and should have voting opportunities revoked.

[Reign of Terrier]

KSU has beaten 2 SWAC teams and a D-II.
Eastern Illinois lost by 35 to that Illinois State team you talked about dropping from the poll.
NCCU lost to Duke by 53 and hasn't beaten anyone.
Monmouth lost to the Albany team you've been arguing against and their wins are against 4 PL teams and a MEAC in OT

*Furman has 3 losses.

I laugh at dropping YSU to 15ish when they lost to two Top 5 teams by a FG and an FBS opponent.

For what it's worth, my original comments were eyeballing it. If I voted in a poll this is what it would look like:

16-22 are pretty subjective in my book. 23 and below is even more so and I won't disagree with people who disagree



1. James Madison Dukes


2. North Dakota State Bison


3. South Dakota Coyotes


4. Jacksonville State Gamecocks


5. Wofford Terriers


6. Central Arkansas Bears





7. Western Illinois Leathernecks


8. Youngstown State


9. Eastern Washington Eagles


10. Elon Phoenix


11. Sam Houston State


12. North Carolina A&T Aggies


13. Richmond Spiders


14. Western Carolina Catamounts


15. Samford Bulldogs


16. Northern Arizona Lumberjacks


17. McNeese State Cowboys


18. Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens


19. Stony Brook Seawolves


20. Montana Grizzlies


21. Weber State Wildcats


22. South Dakota State Jackrabbits


23. New Hampshire


24. Villanova Wildcats


25. Furman

[Reign of Terrier]

What's slot voting?

[TheKingpin28]

For what it's worth, my original comments were eyeballing it. If I voted in a poll this is what it would look like:

16-22 are pretty subjective in my book. 23 and below is even more so and I won't disagree with people who disagree



1. James Madison Dukes


2. North Dakota State Bison


3. South Dakota Coyotes


4. Jacksonville State Gamecocks


5. Wofford Terriers


6. Central Arkansas Bears


7. Sam Houston State Bearkats


8. Western Illinois Leathernecks


9. Eastern Washington Eagles


10. Youngstown State Penguins


11. Eastern Washington Eagles


12. Elon Phoenix


13. North Carolina A&T Aggies


14. Richmond Spiders


15. Western Carolina Catamounts


16. Samford Bulldogs


17. Northern Arizona Lumberjacks


18. McNeese State Cowboys


19. Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens


20. Stony Brook Seawolves


21. Montana Grizzlies


22. Weber State Wildcats


23. South Dakota State Jackrabbits


24. New Hampshire


25. Villanova Wildcats




The ones in red need some serious explaining. The ones in blue are a double vote. How can you have Weber at 22 and no SUU who just curbed stomped them?

[TheKingpin28]

What's slot voting?

Dropping a team who lost just cause they lost and others won. I kept YSU at the same spot where I had them last week, even though since they lost, according to some people, a 3-3 record has no business being in the top 10 when other teams have "better" records. When someone slot votes, they are just being lazy.

[Reign of Terrier]

The ones in red need some serious explaining. The ones in blue are a double vote. How can you have Weber at 22 and no SUU who just curbed stomped them?

Thanks for pointing out my typo, I just did excel. My philosophy with 20-25 on the ranking is that those are always going to be the spots that are most disputed, because they're by definition fringe. No one, by definition, between 20-40 is going to jump out on the page. I ranked New Hampshire because they seem better than the rest, but they're still suspect. If they lose, they are out.

In my edit, I ranked Furman because, yes, they are 4-3, but the 2 FCS losses they have were to top 11 teams (in my ranking) and top 15 ranked teams by other metrics, so I think they're worthy of the top 25.

Wofford I kept at 5 because 1) we're still undefeated and 2) if we win saturday against Samford, there's an above 50% chance we'll finish the Socon season undefeated and 3) at the time, Citadel was an ORV team in the AGS poll but ranked in others such as FCS stats.

I will move down Sam Houston though, I appreciate that criticism because it's valid. I would drop them below Elon given their performance yesterday. It was an ugly win and Sam Houston is clearly top 15 because they've beaten two ranked teams, but they haven't done anything as impressive lately.

Thanks for the criticism, that's why I post it here. It's more helpful to post rankings in totality, because then we can massage our brains and agree/disagree accordingly.xthumbsupx Very few people will have a good poll on the first try.

[PantherRob82]

For what it's worth, my original comments were eyeballing it. If I voted in a poll this is what it would look like:

16-22 are pretty subjective in my book. 23 and below is even more so and I won't disagree with people who disagree



1. James Madison Dukes


2. North Dakota State Bison


3. South Dakota Coyotes


4. Jacksonville State Gamecocks


5. Wofford Terriers


6. Central Arkansas Bears


7. Sam Houston State Bearkats


8. Western Illinois Leathernecks


9. Youngstown State


10. Eastern Washington Eagles


11. Elon Phoenix





12. North Carolina A&T Aggies


13. Richmond Spiders


14. Western Carolina Catamounts


15. Samford Bulldogs


16. Northern Arizona Lumberjacks


17. McNeese State Cowboys


18. Delaware Fightin' Blue Hens


19. Stony Brook Seawolves


20. Montana Grizzlies


21. Weber State Wildcats


22. South Dakota State Jackrabbits


23. New Hampshire


24. Villanova Wildcats


25. Furman

I'm shocked you think WIU is better than YSU.

[Reign of Terrier]

Dropping a team who lost just cause they lost and others won. I kept YSU at the same spot where I had them last week, even though since they lost, according to some people, a 3-3 record has no business being in the top 10 when other teams have "better" records. When someone slot votes, they are just being lazy.

If YSU had only one loss before, I would agree, but my logic for dropping them isn't that they aren't *on average* a really really good team, but losing close ones can be just as much a curse as a blessing. I dropped them to 8, after all consideration, which is still a seed and the opportunity to climb some more.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'm shocked you think WIU is better than YSU.

It's really close either way. Both resumes are impressive. I don't see the outrage in ranking one team 7 and the other 8

[Professor Chaos]

If YSU had only one loss before, I would agree, but my logic for dropping them isn't that they aren't *on average* a really really good team, but losing close ones can be just as much a curse as a blessing. I dropped them to 8, after all consideration, which is still a seed and the opportunity to climb some more.
You can look at it that way or you can look it as "what would SHSU's record be if they played YSU's schedule"? They might also be 3-3 but there's no way IMO that they take USD and NDSU down to the wire like YSU did.

[PantherRob82]

It's really close either way. Both resumes are impressive. I don't see the outrage in ranking one team 7 and the other 8

It's not outrage, but makes me wonder about your ability to objectively rank teams. YSU lost to two Top 5 teams by 3, one in OT. Western Illinois slipped passed a bad UNI team and struggled against Missouri State. It's about more than wins and losses. If YSU loses or struggles against UNI this weekend, maybe I change my mind.

[TheKingpin28]

Thanks for pointing out my typo, I just did excel. My philosophy with 20-25 on the ranking is that those are always going to be the spots that are most disputed, because they're by definition fringe. No one, by definition, between 20-40 is going to jump out on the page. I ranked New Hampshire because they seem better than the rest, but they're still suspect. If they lose, they are out.

In my edit, I ranked Furman because, yes, they are 4-3, but the 2 FCS losses they have were to top 11 teams (in my ranking) and top 15 ranked teams by other metrics, so I think they're worthy of the top 25.

Wofford I kept at 5 because 1) we're still undefeated and 2) if we win saturday against Samford, there's an above 50% chance we'll finish the Socon season undefeated and 3) at the time, Citadel was an ORV team in the AGS poll but ranked in others such as FCS stats.

I will move down Sam Houston though, I appreciate that criticism because it's valid. I would drop them below Elon given their performance yesterday. It was an ugly win and Sam Houston is clearly top 15 because they've beaten two ranked teams, but they haven't done anything as impressive lately.

Thanks for the criticism, that's why I post it here. It's more helpful to post rankings in totality, because then we can massage our brains and agree/disagree accordingly.xthumbsupx Very few people will have a good poll on the first try.

Wofford needed the entire game to be a mediocre at best, The Citadel team so I have them in the top 10, but barely. They win the games they need to, which is great, but anything more than just barely winning against fringe competition should raise some red flags. SHSU, well taking 59 minutes to beat 1-5 Northwestern St should drop them regardless of the outcome. I would also caution what PR82 said about WIU vs YSU ranking. YSU, IMO, should be above WIU based off of how lucky they got against UNI and how UNI pissed the game away down their leg.

[Reign of Terrier]

You can look at it that way or you can look it as "what would SHSU's record be if they played YSU's schedule"? They might also be 3-3 but there's no way IMO that they take USD and NDSU down to the wire like YSU did.

I don't disagree that they would have a similar record, it's just that that level of extrapolation is about two degrees of hypothetical outside of my comfort zone for ranking teams. Relativity and SOS is a valid metric, but teams can only play the teams in front of them. As I've discussed before, leaning too hard on SOS can lead to a sort of circular (yet not unreasonable) logic.

[PantherRob82]

Wofford needed the entire game to be a mediocre at best, The Citadel team so I have them in the top 10, but barely. They win the games they need to, which is great, but anything more than just barely winning against fringe competition should raise some red flags. SHSU, well taking 59 minutes to beat 1-5 Northwestern St should drop them regardless of the outcome. I would also caution what PR82 said about WIU vs YSU ranking. YSU, IMO, should be above WIU based off of how lucky they got against UNI and how UNI pissed the game away down their leg.

Wofford is a tough one to gauge. Winners win, which is what they are doing. Tough to say where that leads them. Hard to punish them for being undefeated. Only one of their games wasn't in question. Wins of 1, 1, 3, 24, 7 (OT), and 4. They're getting it doen, but does that eventually catch up to them or are they a legit Top 5-10 team?

[ST_Lawson]

It's really close either way. Both resumes are impressive. I don't see the outrage in ranking one team 7 and the other 8

I don't disagree, but I'd switch us at this point. YSU has looked impressive against better teams than we have against worse teams so far. We'll know a lot more after YSU plays at UNI and WIU plays at NDSU this week.

[Reign of Terrier]

It's not outrage, but makes me wonder about your ability to objectively rank teams. YSU lost to two Top 5 teams by 3, one in OT. Western Illinois slipped passed a bad UNI team and struggled against Missouri State. It's about more than wins and losses. If YSU loses or struggles against UNI this weekend, maybe I change my mind.

I'm looking at the average performance. I think it's weird that you're singling me out as unreasonable, when the poll has had multiple teams ranked higher than other teams they've beaten. Having a disagreement on a single ranking doesn't make me unreasonable. The reason why we have polls in the first place is to aggregate our bias in the first place.


Wofford needed the entire game to be a mediocre at best, The Citadel team so I have them in the top 10, but barely. They win the games they need to, which is great, but anything more than just barely winning against fringe competition should raise some red flags. SHSU, well taking 59 minutes to beat 1-5 Northwestern St should drop them regardless of the outcome. I would also caution what PR82 said about WIU vs YSU ranking. YSU, IMO, should be above WIU based off of how lucky they got against UNI and how UNI pissed the game away down their leg.

I would challenge the Citadel point just because both Wofford and Citadel are option teams and most apt to play each other. Regardless of record, 5 of the last 7 games have been within a score of each other in the fourth quarter. Citadel is probably going to finish 5-6/6-5, I will admit, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

The fact is that every voter has their bias and subjectivity; Socon voters look at Wofford's close win against the Citadel differently than WIU's win against UNI (and vice versa). We're demanding a level of objectivity and bandwidth that I don't think many voters are capable of. I'm not going to pretend I'm as knowledgeable about the MVFC as you guys, but I think you demonstrate the same level of ignorance about the socon.

[TheKingpin28]

Wofford is a tough one to gauge. Winners win, which is what they are doing. Tough to say where that leads them. Hard to punish them for being undefeated. Only one of their games wasn't in question. Wins of 1, 1, 3, 24, 7 (OT), and 4. They're getting it doen, but does that eventually catch up to them or are they a legit Top 5-10 team?

Luck can only run for so long and eventually, I believe it will catch up to them. I won't punish them for winning, unlike SHSU which should have lost to 1-5 NW St, but that does not mean I am going to rank them in the 4-8 range due to the fact that they are getting extremely lucky and yet still winning.

[PantherRob82]

I'm looking at the average performance. I think it's weird that you're singling me out as unreasonable, when the poll has had multiple teams ranked higher than other teams they've beaten. Having a disagreement on a single ranking doesn't make me unreasonable. The reason why we have polls in the first place is to aggregate our bias in the first place.

I would challenge the Citadel point just because both Wofford and Citadel are option teams and most apt to play each other. Regardless of record, 5 of the last 7 games have been within a score of each other in the fourth quarter. Citadel is probably going to finish 5-6/6-5, I will admit, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

The fact is that every voter has their bias and subjectivity; Socon voters look at Wofford's close win against the Citadel differently than WIU's win against UNI (and vice versa). We're demanding a level of objectivity and bandwidth that I don't think many voters are capable of. I'm not going to pretend I'm as knowledgeable about the MVFC as you guys, but I think you demonstrate the same level of ignorance about the socon.

I'm not singling you out. You're the one in this thread having a conversation so I am replying to anyone putting stuff out there. Personally I think the poll balances everything out and you aren't even a voter.

You commentary on bias/objectivity is really off base in this day and age. Ursus has proven it statistically. I dropped WIU hard for their performance against UNI. I dropped Illinois State out of the poll for their performance against NAU. I would argue that a lot of the MVFC posters on this board watch more games on a national level than voters of any other conference. I've watched games in the CAA, Big Sky, SoCon, SLC, etc all season. I've seen Wofford, WCU, and The Citadel more than once and have seen bits and pieces of Furman, Samford, and Mercer.

[PantherRob82]

Luck can only run for so long and eventually, I believe it will catch up to them. I won't punish them for winning, unlike SHSU which should have lost to 1-5 NW St, but that does not mean I am going to rank them in the 4-8 range due to the fact that they are getting extremely lucky and yet still winning.

I definitely dropped SHSU for that ugly performance. I really think it catches up to them this season. But you can only drop them so far with the performances behind them and needing to tank SDSU. xlolx

[TheKingpin28]

I definitely dropped SHSU for that ugly performance. I really think it catches up to them this season. But you can only drop them so far with the performances behind them and needing to tank SDSU. xlolx

I know some people think I hate SHSU, and I honestly do not, but there is no way SHSU has a seed in the playoffs if they keep it up. Everyone below them kind of sucks so they get the benefit of the doubt and get the last "decent" spot in my poll.

I am so grateful for PlutoTV so I can watch the Big Sky and ESPN 3 for all Valley and some SoCon/Southland games. Now I just need to get more informed on the CAA, but I know they have free streams as I watched the Maine vs JMU game.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford is a tough one to gauge. Winners win, which is what they are doing. Tough to say where that leads them. Hard to punish them for being undefeated. Only one of their games wasn't in question. Wins of 1, 1, 3, 24, 7 (OT), and 4. They're getting it doen, but does that eventually catch up to them or are they a legit Top 5-10 team?

I think we're definitely a top 10 team, just because you can't punish a team for being the lead team in one of the better conferences in the FCS.

In a more nuanced way, the reason why we haven't blown out many teams is pretty straight forward; we've played pretty good teams and teams that have played a style unconducive to us scoring point. Looking at them briefly:
Furman is 4-3, losses against NC State, us and top 15 Elon (also a nail-biter);
Mercer is 4-3, losses against us, Auburn, and a bad bad loss to Mercer
PC we won easily, but part of the reason why we didn't score points is because PC plays this weird gameplan where they'll hold the ball for a 5 minute drive that only goes 20 yards.
Gardner Webb was probably the worst game we played, but we were still 2 turnovers away from a blowout. we won by 3 and fumbled the ball late.
Western Carolina is a solid team (5-2; undefeated in the FCS outside of us) and we held them 150+ below their season average for total yards and about 2 TDs below their points
Citadel; see my commentary in a prior comment

This may sound borderline cocky or confident, but it's a statistical point that needs to be said: we've also not played the worst three teams on our schedule (UTC, VMI, ETSU). There's no guarantee that we'll beat them (blah blah blah Any Given Saturday), but it's a statistical fact (yards, points, offenses, defenses, wins and losses) that those are the three worst teams in the conference. I think people would have a different perception of us, had we scheduled differently and sprinkled a couple blowouts between them.

It's obviously not a given that we'll beat them, let alone blow them out or win easily, but comparatively speaking, against the competition we've played thus far in the Socon (Mercer, Furman, Citadel, Western Carolina), last year we were 3-1, this year 4-0. Those games were all close in the fourth quarter; we were down against furman and won (this Furman team is better than them); We scored more points against Mercer this year than last (a punt block scoop and score was the difference in 2016); Western Carolina is just a better team this year; Citadel isn't as good as last year but is still good.

Average outcome for those 4 games was a 29.25-22.75 (+6.5) in 2016 (less than a touchdown). In 2017 the margin is 21.4-18.8 (+2.6). So really, we're about 4 points less impressive per game than last year. I would say that in general the competition is better.

Meanwhile, in our remaining games, last year we won them by an average of 26.75-14. And they aren't as good as they were last year.

So, if I were to summarize "where Wofford is right now" the answer is obviously that we're in a good place. We have beaten teams we hadn't beaten last year (Citadel), but also have had closer games against teams that are at least as good or better than they were last year (Mercer, Furman, Western Carolina). Our defense is about the same, even if the stats don't seem as impressive and our offense is clearly improved.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'm not singling you out. You're the one in this thread having a conversation so I am replying to anyone putting stuff out there. Personally I think the poll balances everything out and you aren't even a voter.

You commentary on bias/objectivity is really off base in this day and age. Ursus has proven it statistically. I dropped WIU hard for their performance against UNI. I dropped Illinois State out of the poll for their performance against NAU. I would argue that a lot of the MVFC posters on this board watch more games on a national level than voters of any other conference. I've watched games in the CAA, Big Sky, SoCon, SLC, etc all season. I've seen Wofford, WCU, and The Citadel more than once and have seen bits and pieces of Furman, Samford, and Mercer.

I've no doubt you guys (MVFC) watch more FCS football than I do. The MVFC is really competitive every year, so there's a reason for you to watch. Having said that, being biased isn't always a bad thing; everyone is biased. Bias helps us prioritize important information over others, given our limited attention span. I didn't say the AGS poll is biased, just that individual posters are probably on average biased. The reason why we have the poll is to average out the biases. I trust what MVFC people say about the MVFC than others (as with the Big South and their fans, CAA, etc)

[kalm]

I damn near punched my computer based off of how hard it has been to do this poll. Between 6-10, I felt dirty and from 18-28 I felt disgusted. This is how I see it:

1-3: Obvious, but in what order?
4: This team just keeps winning and no one is "stepping" up.
5: IMO, slightly obvious, but will people look past a "record" and see their schedule instead?
6-10: A giant cluster**** of potential contenders and pretenders.
11-17: CAA, MVFC and SoCon teams (plus NCAT) vying for position for December football.
18-19: A Hot and Cold MVFC and CAA team.
20-22: The "2nd" rung of Big Sky teams.
23-27/28: Where fluidity occurs and I need more information.

Relegating the rest of the BSC to 20+ behind NCAT, vying for position CAA, MVFC, and Socon teams, and hot and cold MVFC and CAA teams is lazy and deserves to have your voting rights revoked.

[PantherRob82]

Relegating the rest of the BSC to 20+ behind NCAT, vying for position CAA, MVFC, and Socon teams, and hot and cold MVFC and CAA teams is lazy and deserves to have your voting rights revoked.
Weber State was the 2nd highest ranked Big Sky team and they lost, why would having the next team after EWU between 20-22 be an issue?

The 2nd team in my poll is at 16. But I don't think 4 spots lower would be hard to see.

[kalm]

Weber State was the 2nd highest ranked Big Sky team and they lost, why would having the next team after EWU between 20-22 be an issue?

SOS compared to those he'd put above them.

[TheKingpin28]

Relegating the rest of the BSC to 20+ behind NCAT, vying for position CAA, MVFC, and Socon teams, and hot and cold MVFC and CAA teams is lazy and deserves to have your voting rights revoked.

Really? When my poll gets posted on Monday, you will see why. I am one of the more consistent voters and my poll usually comes close to what the AGS poll is. So please, tell me how the BS deserves 2 teams in the top 20? I had WSU in the top 10 until they got curbed stomped by SUU.

[TheKingpin28]

SOS compared to those he'd put above them.

Outside NCAT, the teams I have above, deserve to be above. I am just hoping NCAT loses finally so I have a reason to kick them out of my poll. Hard to kick them out when they keep dominating the competition.

[malibudude]

Yale did play Cal Poly.

- - - Updated - - -

If an Ivy was undefeated and even beat a top 40 team I would vote for them.


And beat Cal Poly

[kalm]

Really? When my poll gets posted on Monday, you will see why. I am one of the more consistent voters and my poll usually comes close to what the AGS poll is. So please, tell me how the BS deserves 2 teams in the top 20? I had WSU in the top 10 until they got curbed stomped by SUU.

Your top 10 analysis is good and I agree. Outside of that is where the mess lies. The 2-loss or worse CAA, MVFC, and SoCon teams that reside there in many polls all have question marks just like the 2-loss BSC teams. But three of those BSC teams are ranked 3rd, 7th, and 8th in SoS. The next two go 17 and 25.

The SoCon's SOS go 41, 25, 34, 59, 47.

The CAA's SOS go 32, 9, 19, 20, 40, 35, and 63.

I think the MVFC is still clearly out front with at least 4 really good teams and a few more that could rise up into that category, plus their SoS (for the most part) is solid so they fit your bill of "hot and cold", "vying for December football" teams. But with the CAA, they're ain't exactly a ton of high quality wins (with few exceptions other than the two front runners) to offset the lower SoS compared to the BSC. Much of this has to do with a down Patriot and playing MEAC and NEC teams as is their norm.

The SoCon 2-loss teams may be even less compelling.

And I'm sure your poll is just fine but it's not the only one that closely resembles the AGS poll.

[Cocky]

Outside NCAT, the teams I have above, deserve to be above. I am just hoping NCAT loses finally so I have a reason to kick them out of my poll. Hard to kick them out when they keep dominating the competition.

Why do you hope NC AT loses? I hope the MEAC has a new measuring stick and its top 10 quality football.

[LehighU11]

Outside NCAT, the teams I have above, deserve to be above. I am just hoping NCAT loses finally so I have a reason to kick them out of my poll. Hard to kick them out when they keep dominating the competition.

Having NC A&T in your poll is hypocritical when you say the Ivies have no place in the top 25. The MEAC is essentially just as insulated as the Ivy League. NC A&T appears to be a fine MEAC squad, but their Sagarin SOS is 243 of 254. Who have they beaten that is any more impressive than Dartmouth or Columbia? 1-5 Gardner-Webb? 2-5 D2 Mars Hill? 0-7 FBS, though new program Charlotte? 1-5 Morgan State? 2-4 SC St? 0-6 Delaware St? 2-5 Florida A&M?

Dartmouth beat Yale, who is above NC A&T in the Sagarin. Both Dartmouth and Columbia have 5-0 records with stronger SOS (albeit weak). Are you just going by margin of victory for NC A&T? Honestly, I'd like to find out why folks dismiss the Ivy League so quickly, yet give the MEAC (and occasionally the SWAC) the benefit of the doubt.

[PantherRob82]

Having NC A&T in your poll is hypocritical when you say the Ivies have no place in the top 25. The MEAC is essentially just as insulated as the Ivy League. NC A&T appears to be a fine MEAC squad, but their Sagarin SOS is 243 of 254. Who have they beaten that is any more impressive than Dartmouth or Columbia? 1-5 Gardner-Webb? 2-5 D2 Mars Hill? 0-7 FBS, though new program Charlotte? 1-5 Morgan State? 2-4 SC St? 0-6 Delaware St? 2-5 Florida A&M?

Dartmouth beat Yale, who is above NC A&T in the Sagarin. Both Dartmouth and Columbia have 5-0 records with stronger SOS (albeit weak). Are you just going by margin of victory for NC A&T? Honestly, I'd like to find out why folks dismiss the Ivy League so quickly, yet give the MEAC (and occasionally the SWAC) the benefit of the doubt.

i think it is because NCAT played in the playoffs last year. Although they didn’t exactly prove themselves.

[WestCoastAggie]

I am just happy A&T is to the point where conversations like this happen constantly.

[TheKingpin28]

Why do you hope NC AT loses? I hope the MEAC has a new measuring stick and its top 10 quality football.

They took their football and left but at least when the rest of the FCS is down, they throw them a bone since they will play and not remain smug about the playoffs..


Having NC A&T in your poll is hypocritical when you say the Ivies have no place in the top 25. The MEAC is essentially just as insulated as the Ivy League. NC A&T appears to be a fine MEAC squad, but their Sagarin SOS is 243 of 254. Who have they beaten that is any more impressive than Dartmouth or Columbia? 1-5 Gardner-Webb? 2-5 D2 Mars Hill? 0-7 FBS, though new program Charlotte? 1-5 Morgan State? 2-4 SC St? 0-6 Delaware St? 2-5 Florida A&M?

Dartmouth beat Yale, who is above NC A&T in the Sagarin. Both Dartmouth and Columbia have 5-0 records with stronger SOS (albeit weak). Are you just going by margin of victory for NC A&T? Honestly, I'd like to find out why folks dismiss the Ivy League so quickly, yet give the MEAC (and occasionally the SWAC) the benefit of the doubt.

Read above.