US News Rankings For FCS Schools

[DFW HOYA]

Schools in the top 100 of the "national universities" category:

1. Princeton
2. Harvard
3. Yale
5. Columbia
8. Pennsylvania
11. Dartmouth
14. Brown
14. Cornell
20. Georgetown
32. William & Mary
46. UC-Davis
46. Lehigh
46. Villanova
61. Fordham
81. Delaware
90. San Diego
97. Stony Brook

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

[Catatonic]

All fine schools. A couple of points though:

1 Cal Davis is omitted from the list. UCD and Lehigh were tied for 46th.

2. You have only included doctoral universities, which USNWR calls "national universities" There are fine liberal arts colleges and universities that focus on undergrad and master's degrees. These schools are ranked separately by USNWR.

[SFspidur]

I'll contribute the national liberal arts college rankings:

10. Davidson
12. Colgate
23. Richmond
33. Bucknell
33. Holy Cross
36. Lafayette
53. Furman
65. VMI
71. Wofford

[crusader11]

Richmond and Villanova -- you have an open invitation to join the Patriot League!

[Go Green]

Schools in the top 100 of the "national universities" category:

1. Princeton
2. Harvard
3. Yale
5. Columbia
8. Pennsylvania
11. Dartmouth


For a couple of decades, Dartmouth and Columbia played musical chairs (often being tied) for the #4 ranked Ivy school.

That's changed in the last generation when cities stopped being total ****holes to live in. New York and Philadelphia aren't the toilets that they used to be...

Hence, Columbia and Penn moved up a bit and were able to bypass Dartmouth.

Hopefully we at least kick their butts in football. :)

[kalm]

No Harvard of the Palouse???

Clown rankings...

[DFW HOYA]

Richmond and Villanova -- you have an open invitation to join the Patriot League!

What, no Davidson? xrolleyesx

[crusader11]

What, no Davidson? xrolleyesx

I think acquiring Richmond and Villanova and giving the Hoyas the boot to the PFL would be perfect! Having a nice, round eight team league with all teams having scholarships would be perfect...

[UAalum72]

No Harvard of the Palouse???
obvious East Coast bias

or maybe private-school bias

[WestCoastAggie]

Schools in the top 100 of the "national universities" category:

1. Princeton
2. Harvard
3. Yale
5. Columbia
8. Pennsylvania
11. Dartmouth
14. Brown
14. Cornell
20. Georgetown
32. William & Mary
46. UC-Davis
46. Lehigh
46. Villanova
61. Fordham
81. Delaware
90. San Diego
97. Stony Brook

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

Just outside the top 100 is Howard at 112.

[Go...gate]

Richmond and Villanova -- you have an open invitation to join the Patriot League!

I always kinda liked the idea of VMI, too.

[Silenoz]

MSU and UM are tied? That can't be right, they let us know daily that we are sub-human retards

[Thumper 76]

MSU and UM are tied? That can't be right, they let us know daily that we are sub-human retards

To add to it, I'm told continually how much better USeD is academically than SDSU. Cause med and law school hurr hurr. Interesting rankings for all that xcoffeex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Catbooster]

MSU and UM are tied? That can't be right, they let us know daily that we are sub-human retards
Seriously? Tied? I have to agree with you - that ain't right ;)

[etiger]

Towson was ranked #10 in Top Public Schools, #41 in Regional University's North, #23 in Best Colleges for Veterans, #57 in Best Value Schools, and #290 in Business Programs.

[DFW HOYA]

Towson was ranked #10 in Top Public Schools, #41 in Regional University's North, #23 in Best Colleges for Veterans, #57 in Best Value Schools, and #290 in Business Programs.

The "Top Public Schools" is a misnomer.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-north/top-public

[Model Citizen]

You have only included doctoral universities, which USNWR calls "national universities" There are fine liberal arts colleges and universities that focus on undergrad and master's degrees. These schools are ranked separately by USNWR.

Regional Universities, Midwest

#2 Butler
#3 Drake
#4 Valparaiso

[GodHelpTheBears]

Regional Universities, Midwest

#2 Butler
#3 Drake
#4 Valparaiso

#106 Missouri State

Ain't need no book learnin'

[KPSUL]

Schools in the top 100 of the "national universities" category:

1. Princeton
2. Harvard
3. Yale
5. Columbia
8. Pennsylvania
11. Dartmouth
14. Brown
14. Cornell
20. Georgetown
32. William & Mary
46. UC-Davis
46. Lehigh
46. Villanova
61. Fordham
81. Delaware
90. San Diego
97. Stony Brook

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And we are suppose to care about this list on a football message board because of what reason?

[Sitting Bull]

Schools in the top 100 of the "national universities" category:

1. Princeton
2. Harvard
3. Yale
5. Columbia
8. Pennsylvania
11. Dartmouth
14. Brown
14. Cornell
20. Georgetown
32. William & Mary
46. UC-Davis
46. Lehigh
46. Villanova
61. Fordham
81. Delaware
90. San Diego
97. Stony Brook

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities


The brand names here, with the addition of some of the top regional rankers, are what provide FCS a solid footing and level of national interest, whether these teams win or not.

[superman7515]

And we are suppose to care about this list on a football message board because of what reason?

I'll add it to the next How They Fared spreadsheet for use as a tie-breaker in your polls.

[bobcathpdevil56]

I'll add it to the next How They Fared spreadsheet for use as a tie-breaker in your polls.

Where were JMU and NDSU? then we can finally end this who should be #1 debate

[TheValleyRaider]

Back in front of Hamilton again, as it should be

[phoenix3]

Elon University is ranked #1 in Regional Universities South. Schools are ranked according to their performance across a set of widely accepted indicators of excellence.2018 Rankings

#1 in Regional Universities South (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south)
#1 in Best Undergraduate Teaching (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/undergraduate-teaching)
#1 in Most Innovative Schools (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/innovative)
#25 in Best Value Schools (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/best-value)
#128 (tie) in Business Programs (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/business)

[Sader87]

Davidson actually was in the original Colonial League (now Patriot League) for football....not sure how it worked exactly (provisional status?) as they nevah played Holy Cross during that time (mid-late 1980s).

ETA: Just found this...I'm sure I've read this before in the past but interesting reading 31 years later:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/14/sports/college-football-86-colonial-league-a-new-conference-makes-a-statement.html?pagewanted=all

[KPSUL]

I'll add it to the next How They Fared spreadsheet for use as a tie-breaker in your polls.

Will it be a positive or negative correlation ?

[ST_Lawson]

Will it be a positive or negative correlation ?

Yes.

This year we're dividing the year founded by ranking. If it's an odd number, you take the highest place digit and add it to your ranking number...if it's even, you subtract it from your rank number.


#106 Missouri State

Ain't need no book learnin'

#61 (tied)....ha, in your face Pittsburg State

[GodHelpTheBears]

Yes.

This year we're dividing the year founded by ranking. If it's an odd number, you take the highest place digit and add it to your ranking number...if it's even, you subtract it from your rank number.


Whoa, whoa, whoa, I went to the #106 school in the Midwest region.

Please slow down. I don't know this geology stuff.

[ElCid]

Elon University is ranked #1 in Regional Universities South. Schools are ranked according to their performance across a set of widely accepted indicators of excellence.2018 Rankings

#1 in Regional Universities South (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south)
#1 in Best Undergraduate Teaching (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/undergraduate-teaching)
#1 in Most Innovative Schools (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/innovative)
#25 in Best Value Schools (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/regional-universities-south/best-value)
#128(tie) in Business Programs (https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/business)

Yeah, I saw that. We had been #1 in the South region for like ... forever. Or at least a bunch of years recently. Not sure what changed this year.

[ST_Lawson]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I went to the #106 school in the Midwest region.

Please slow down. I don't know this geology stuff.

Sorry...sorry, my bad.

Ok, how about this one...
1. Grab a handheld calculator
2. Take MSU's current Sagarin ranking (189) and multiply that by the US News Ranking for MSU in the Midwest region (106).
3. Take that number and multiply it by the major interstate that goes through Springfield, MO (44).
4. Multiply that number by the number of years left on Steckel's contract including this year (6)
5. Add the cost of attendance for non-Missouri residents for a year at MSU (24,383).
6. Take Brodie Lambert's longest run last season (46) and Breck Ruddick's total rushing yards last season (49) all as one number (4649) and add that to your previous result.
7. Turn the calculator upside down.

[cx500d]

Sorry...sorry, my bad.

Ok, how about this one...
1. Grab a handheld calculator
2. Take MSU's current Sagarin ranking (189) and multiply that by the US News Ranking for MSU in the Midwest region (106).
3. Take that number and multiply it by the major interstate that goes through Springfield, MO (44).
4. Multiply that number by the number of years left on Steckel's contract including this year (6)
5. Add the cost of attendance for non-Missouri residents for a year at MSU (24,383).
6. Take Brodie Lambert's longest run last season (46) and Breck Ruddick's total rushing yards last season (49) all as one number (4649) and add that to your previous result.
7. Turn the calculator upside down.

Who has a handheld calculator anymore?

[ST_Lawson]

Who has a handheld calculator anymore?

Fine...the calculator app on your smartphone.

[DFW HOYA]

ETA: Just found this...I'm sure I've read this before in the past but interesting reading 31 years later:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/14/sports/college-football-86-colonial-league-a-new-conference-makes-a-statement.html?pagewanted=all

"The carrot was the Ivy promise to provide at least 16 games a season, many in Colonial League stadiums."

Today, just 11 games, and three are with Georgetown, which is now 6-30-1 (.175) vs the Ancient Eight.

[lucchesicourt]

UC Davis is not correctly referred to as Cal Davis. However, they are one and the same school. Also UC-Davis in incorrect

[Redbird 4th & short]

Where were JMU and NDSU? then we can finally end this who should be #1 debate

lest we forget SHSU .. oh wait, maybe they adjusted their ranking for strength of course schedule :D .. that should finally appease their haters.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

This is definitely a "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder" kind of thing. JMU is #7 in the Regional South rankings, which is #2 for public schools behind The Citadel. Watch for Christopher Newport University, which is making strides and gaining in these rankings each year. JMU being a school that focuses on undergraduate education gets lost in the "national" picture. For example, it is nowhere to be found on the Business School rankings here, but then you have this:

https://www.jmu.edu/news/2016/04/19-businessweek-ranking.shtml

which has JMU as #41 among all undergraduate business programs and top 20 among public institutions.

So it's all relative. Not all schools are created equal, it's why we chose where we chose to go. Thank god for such a rich, diverse academic landscape in America!

[PantherRob82]

All that matters is the year that you were founded. End of story.

[Cocky]

JSU is probably in the ORV. But we are sitting better in the AGS poll

[Catatonic]

And we are suppose to care about this list on a football message board because of what reason?


which part of student athlete don't you get?

[ElCid]

All that matters is the year that you were founded. End of story.

Exactly, do we need to resurrect that thread?xlolx

[bobcathpdevil56]

All that matters is the year that you were founded. End of story.

Or if their football field has a track around it

[UNIFanSince1983]

#2 Public school in the midwest and #25 in the midwest overall not too shabby.

Maybe we aren't the University of No Intelligence after all.

[Catatonic]

ACU

#18 in the West *
#11 Best for Veterans
#9 Best Value School

*Highest ranking in the Southland Congerence

[The Boogie Down]

Davidson actually was in the original Colonial League (now Patriot League) for football....not sure how it worked exactly (provisional status?) as they nevah played Holy Cross during that time (mid-late 1980s).

ETA: Just found this...I'm sure I've read this before in the past but interesting reading 31 years later:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/14/sports/college-football-86-colonial-league-a-new-conference-makes-a-statement.html?pagewanted=all


Great link! Good foreshadowing in terms of Fordham and ironic li'l Towson State mention at the end too. I had always heard that it was the Ivies who reached out to get the Patsies formed but never knew it really was that clear cut and simple. Wow, one league telling a group of schools to form another league. To be their Ivy-Lights. Doesn't get much patsier than that!

[Go...gate]

Davidson actually was in the original Colonial League (now Patriot League) for football....not sure how it worked exactly (provisional status?) as they nevah played Holy Cross during that time (mid-late 1980s).

ETA: Just found this...I'm sure I've read this before in the past but interesting reading 31 years later:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/14/sports/college-football-86-colonial-league-a-new-conference-makes-a-statement.html?pagewanted=all

William & Mary was actually in the original Colonial League. However, W&M dropped out a year before the league began formal play due to a dispute over (what else?) scholarships. Davidson came in as a replacement and competed in the 1986, 1987 and 1988 seasons and dropped out in the Spring of 1989, to be replaced by Fordham.

[GodHelpTheBears]

Missouri State is the #1 choice among Missouri high schoolers taking the ACT: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/notes-from-campus/missouri-state-ousts-mizzou-as-top-choice-school-among-act/article_f0528e6c-9b91-5b62-b68d-58b217ca46f4.html

Too bad US News does not assign value to schools fulfilling their missions.

[cx500d]

William & Mary was actually in the original Colonial League. However, W&M dropped out a year before the league began formal play due to a dispute over (what else?) scholarships. Davidson same in as a replacement and competed in the 1986, 1987 and 1988 seasons and dropped out in the Spring of 1989, to be replaced by Fordham.


Since William and Mary is the oldest school in Virginia, and the 2nd oldest in the country, is William and Mary considered the "Flagship School" in Virginia?

[UAalum72]

Davidson actually was in the original Colonial League (now Patriot League) for football....not sure how it worked exactly (provisional status?) as they nevah played Holy Cross during that time (mid-late 1980s).

ETA: Just found this...I'm sure I've read this before in the past but interesting reading 31 years later:

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/09/14/sports/college-football-86-colonial-league-a-new-conference-makes-a-statement.html?pagewanted=all
"The carrot was the Ivy promise to provide at least 16 games a season, many in Colonial League stadiums. ''Yale Here Saturday'' would be more exciting in Lewisburg, Pa., Bucknell's home town, than Towson State."

Would have been, but in the time since this was written, Yale has played Bucknell only twice ('96 and '97), both times in New Haven.

[Go...gate]

"The carrot was the Ivy promise to provide at least 16 games a season, many in Colonial League stadiums."

Today, just 11 games, and three are with Georgetown, which is now 6-30-1 (.175) vs the Ancient Eight.

And only one against Colgate, the most-played OOC Ivy opponent.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not FCS but Temple comes in at #115 for National Universities, #53 for public national universities.

Not sure of the updated department rankings but our undergrad business program had been 57th as of 2015 iirc.

[hktribefan]

I guess we should be thankful for that, though it is worth wondering what that league would look like if they stayed on par with other 1-AA/FCS conferences through the years.


William & Mary was actually in the original Colonial League. However, W&M dropped out a year before the league began formal play due to a dispute over (what else?) scholarships. Davidson same in as a replacement and competed in the 1986, 1987 and 1988 seasons and dropped out in the Spring of 1989, to be replaced by Fordham.

[Go Green]

"The carrot was the Ivy promise to provide at least 16 games a season, many in Colonial League stadiums."

.

I'm not going to go back and look, but I'm guessing that there were a good number of years where 16 (or more) games were played between Ivy and Patriot teams.

There were years in the 1990s when Dartmouth played three PL schools.

Things change.

[Gater]

I guess we should be thankful for that, though it is worth wondering what that league would look like if they stayed on par with other 1-AA/FCS conferences through the years.

This might be a good time to talk about possible Patriot League expansion.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not going to go back and look, but I'm guessing that there were a good number of years where 16 (or more) games were played between Ivy and Patriot teams.

There were years in the 1990s when Dartmouth played three PL schools.

Things change.

The official scheduling agreement was in place until 1999. Lafayette played Princeton, Dartmouth and Brown that year. We've continued to play Princeton, Penn, Colombia and Harvard on a somewhat regular basis, and Yale a few times over the years.

[Go...gate]

I'm not going to go back and look, but I'm guessing that there were a good number of years where 16 (or more) games were played between Ivy and Patriot teams.

There were years in the 1990s when Dartmouth played three PL schools.

Things change.

That is correct, but the change is not always for the better.

[Go...gate]

This might be a good time to talk about possible Patriot League expansion.

We are probably all right for now, but who knows about the future. I can see a scenario in which Fordham moves to the CAA and Georgetown moves to the Pioneer and PL Football is down to the "Iron Five" again.

[crusader11]

12 games between the PL and Ivy this year.

Unfortunately, some Ivy League teams are electing to play PFL and NEC schools over PL schools, presumably because of the PL reinstituting scholarships.

[Go Green]

12 games between the PL and Ivy this year.

Unfortunately, some Ivy League teams are electing to play PFL and NEC schools over PL schools, presumably because of the PL reinstituting scholarships.

That, and at the time the NEC games were scheduled, the Ivy expected the NEC to be a competitive league. They were getting guys who would have gone to CAA schools that dropped football.

Didn't work out the way we thought it would. While the NEC has taken some games from us, it's not as even as we expected. We will see if it continues...

As for the PFL, the Ivy football teams discovered that airplanes existed. A few made trips and decided it was fun to get out of the Northeast every now and then.

[Sader87]

Patriot League thread hijack..... check. xrotatehx

[KPSUL]

This might be a good time to talk about possible Patriot League expansion.

Is there any time, or thread, that isn't perfect for talking about Patriot League expansion?

[Gater]

Is there any time, or thread, that isn't perfect for talking about Patriot League expansion?

Is this your way of asking for a score update in the Lafayette vs. New Hampshire game?

[Go...gate]

12 games between the PL and Ivy this year.

Unfortunately, some Ivy League teams are electing to play PFL and NEC schools over PL schools, presumably because of the PL reinstituting scholarships.

Which is disingenuous because both leagues gave "equivalencies" for years; the PL just stopped the practice of calling their scholarships "equivalencies" and decided to call them what they really were.

[DFW HOYA]

We are probably all right for now, but who knows about the future. I can see a scenario in which Fordham moves to the CAA and Georgetown moves to the Pioneer and PL Football is down to the "Iron Five" again.

Repeated for this thread: Georgetown will go independent before it goes to the PFL. Ten of the 11 PFL schools offer non-athletic merit aid and Georgetown does not.

Playing the likes of Morehead State and Valpo is not a strategic priority for Georgetown. (One could argue, of course, that neither is Bucknell or Holy Cross, but that's for another day.)

[KPSUL]

Is this your way of asking for a score update in the Lafayette vs. New Hampshire game?

Please, not that! Keep up the expansion talk.

[World]

Excellent point


The brand names here, with the addition of some of the top regional rankers, are what provide FCS a solid footing and level of national interest, whether these teams win or not.

[Go...gate]

Repeated for this thread: Georgetown will go independent before it goes to the PFL. Ten of the 11 PFL schools offer non-athletic merit aid and Georgetown does not.

Playing the likes of Morehead State and Valpo is not a strategic priority for Georgetown. (One could argue, of course, that neither is Bucknell or Holy Cross, but that's for another day.)

Fair enough. Under either scenario, Georgetown would leave the Patriot League.

Is there some problem with the Hoyas playing Bucknell, Holy Cross or anyone else in the conference?

[Sader87]

Which is disingenuous because both leagues gave "equivalencies" for years; the PL just stopped the practice of calling their scholarships "equivalencies" and decided to call them what they really were.

Nitpick, but Holy Cross gave full athletic scholarships for football through the Class of 1992, not equivalences....I think that was a big part of our of problem in football during the non-scholarship PL football era of 1992-2012...as an institution, we nevah seemed to handle this correctly having been a scholarship program forevah.

[Go...gate]

Is this your way of asking for a score update in the Lafayette vs. New Hampshire game?

It's baaaaacck.....

[The Boogie Down]

Repeated for this thread: Georgetown will go independent before it goes to the PFL. Ten of the 11 PFL schools offer non-athletic merit aid and Georgetown does not.

Playing the likes of Morehead State and Valpo is not a strategic priority for Georgetown. (One could argue, of course, that neither is Bucknell or Holy Cross, but that's for another day.)

I'm guessing not giving non-athletic merit aid would put Georgetown at a disadvantage in the PFL b/c, as it is now, 10 /11 of those schools can "sneak" in tuition breaks to rich kids who otherwise wouldn't get any financial breaks. But as it stands now, every Patsy can give out 60 full scholarships except for Georgetown. So doesn't that put the Hoyas in an even bigger disadvantage than they would be in the PFL? Also, isn't it safe to assume that Georgetown would be an immediate contender to win the PFL if they joined tomorrow where as (2012 aside) who knows if that could ever happen again in the Patsies?

[Go Green]

Which is disingenuous because both leagues gave "equivalencies" for years; the PL just stopped the practice of calling their scholarships "equivalencies" and decided to call them what they really were.

Be that as it may, at the time of the decision, the Ivy collectively believed that the entire PL would look like Holy Cross circa late 1980s/early 1990s.

Again, it didn't work out that way....

[Model Citizen]

Also, isn't it safe to assume that Georgetown would be an immediate contender to win the PFL if they joined tomorrow...


Draw your own conclusions about whether Georgetown can hang with USD and Dayton. But Georgetown would have to drop athletic aid to join the PFL. That would degrade the Hoyas' talent.

[Model Citizen]

I can see a scenario in which Fordham moves to the CAA and Georgetown moves to the Pioneer and PL Football is down to the "Iron Five" again.

They'd want to avoid that at all costs. Need six for an auto playoff bid.

[JayMYou]

Yeah, I saw that. We had been #1 in the South region for like ... forever. Or at least a bunch of years recently. Not sure what changed this year.

Yeah well JMU used to be #1 before that, after Richmond left for the Liberal Arts category. Then we doubled in size and took a big slide- an issue The Citadel, Elon, and all the other small privates won't have.

[ElCid]

Yeah well JMU used to be #1 before that, after Richmond left for the Liberal Arts category. Then we doubled in size and took a big slide- an issue The Citadel, Elon, and all the other small privates won't have.

Yeah, our costs have been ridiculous. For a public school, it is pretty high. Out of state is even more ridiculous. I think it is like 33K now. Wow. I know it has been a while, but I think my freshman year was 5.5K, and that was higher than the other years due to uniform costs as a knob. We have actually grown in the last 15 years but not doubled for sure.

[Go...gate]

They'd want to avoid that at all costs. Need six for an auto playoff bid.

Exactly. One of the reasons this topic pops up so often.

[WestCoastAggie]

Exactly. One of the reasons this topic pops up so often.
Howard?

[GodHelpTheBears]

Yeah well JMU used to be #1 before that, after Richmond left for the Liberal Arts category. Then we doubled in size and took a big slide- an issue The Citadel, Elon, and all the other small privates won't have.

I want to say our healthy enrollment growth is the reason for our slide (we were in the low 50's when I started at Missouri State), but I imagine slashes in state funds and large groups of tenured professors reaching retirement also played roles.

We're never going to be particularly selective, and I don't think we should be. Our primary student group is from the Ozarks - one of the poorest areas of the country. Our aim is similar to schools like West Virginia, Oklahoma State and Eastern Kentucky - just raise your base up. It isn't glamorous, and it doesn't look great in the statistics, but some schools shouldn't be elitist.

[SU DOG]

One thing you can say is that those Bears have a heck of a Women's Volleyball Program,

[tomq04]

No Harvard of the Palouse???

Clown rankings...

LOL I was trying to come up with a similar response.

[GodHelpTheBears]

One thing you can say is that those Bears have a heck of a Women's Volleyball Program,

The two sports we have consistent success in have coaches that have been here over 20 years. They've been able to basically establish their own power structures away from the larger athletic department. University leadership doesn't have space to meddle, like they do in the revenue sports (women's basketball has been a revenue sport for us in the past) and football. Our current AD is terrible at hiring the right coach, and even worse about giving out extensions, but I get the sense he does not make the final call on those.