Are there programs you just can't win at?

[GodHelpTheBears]

For whatever reason, I still own a copy of Athlon's 2004 I-A Football Preview. I skimmed it last night as I internalized yesterday's Missouri State game. While parts of it are amusing to read (how soon will Bill Callahan compete for national championships at Nebraska?), I was intrigued by a section where the writers posed various questions to comtemporary head coaches, such as "which coach do you try to emulate?" (the majority answer of "Joe Paterno" aged pretty poorly, too bad we can't make fun of certain people because the coaches were allowed to remain anonymous), but one question caught my eye because I find it personally relevant:

"Are there programs you just can't win at?"

This question received the most diverse answers in the column. Anyone who has read anything I have posted on here knows my answer to this. I just found it intriguing that head coaches of major programs would agree.

To expand the scope of this thread, if you were a credible booster of a Missouri State or Indiana (a program called out by name by a coach in the article as being impossible to win at), what do you think would need to be done to raise programs like this to national competitiveness? Would it be possible, or how realistic would it be?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

What would you consider a "credible booster" as you said?

Someone that would donate multiple millions of dollars for many years would be one IMO. I believe if MSU could still be a FCS power with those facilities and geographic area. I don't know what they spend on the FB team but if they had the money to up their pay, recruiting footprint and probably marketing to fans, they could turn the corner in the Valley IMO.

I thought they would give UND a game yesterday....:(

[GodHelpTheBears]

What would you consider a "credible booster" as you said?

Someone that would donate multiple millions of dollars for many years would be one IMO. I believe if MSU could still be a FCS power with those facilities and geographic area. I don't know what they spend on the FB team but if they had the money to up their pay, recruiting footprint and probably marketing to fans, they could turn the corner in the Valley IMO.

I thought they would give UND a game yesterday....:(

I'm not expecting any T. Boones or Phil Knights to respond - generally anyone who contributes enough for university leadership to notice beyond printing your name in the game programs. You are at least asked for your input...

We don't have any big money donors. The Hammons estate is tied up in court, and none of the prospective heirs care about MSU athletics. I believe Stec's hiring was "the big swing" being taken to fix football, and if it didn't work, no further investment would be made. Why pay $300k for a coach to lose when a mediocre MIAA coach can do it for a third of the price?

I also disagree with your assessment of our facilities and geographic area - we have no indoor practice facility, actually no dedicated practice area at all. Practices are conducted at the stadium. Our geographic placement hurts in an upper midwest-focused conference. If we split into divisions, we'd be with the Dakotas and UNI and it really would be impossible to gain traction.

[citdog]

Again I think it rather amusing that a civilian school that is no different than any of the other 800 just like it wants to throw in the towel when The Citadel is a Top 15 team.

[Daytripper]

If Nicholls can turn the corner and be competitive, any program can.

[GodHelpTheBears]

Again I think it rather amusing that a civilian school that is no different than any of the other 800 just like it wants to throw in the towel when The Citadel is a Top 15 team.

Well, Navy occasionally slips into the top 25 while Tulane spins its wheels for decades. I'd argue one part of it is emotional investment. The Citadel community is emotionally invested in the program, the Missouri State community has viewed it as a diversion at best.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Bob Stitt cant win at Montana.........

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[Daytripper]

Bob Stitt cant win at Montana.........

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That's becoming abundantly clear. Seems to me it's hard NOT to win at Montana considering everything that program has.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Again I think it rather amusing that a civilian school that is no different than any of the other 800 just like it wants to throw in the towel when The Citadel is a Top 15 team.


Newberry and Presbyterian are quality wins?

[citdog]

Bob Stitt cant win at Montana.........

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True but an actual DI head coach can.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

If Nicholls can turn the corner and be competitive, any program can.


Playing TAM tough is pretty dang good.

[GodHelpTheBears]

Playing TAM tough is pretty dang good.

I don't want to completely crap on it, but I suspect A&M has quit on Sumlin. For now, I consider their effort against UGA last year more impressive.

[Daytripper]

Playing TAM tough is pretty dang good.

I thought TAMU would be so pissed after that UCLA fiasco that they would blow Nicholls out of Kyle Field. Nicholls has been super impressive so far this season. They were pretty good last year and seem to be just getting better.

[centennial]

Bob Stitt cant win at Montana.........

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Bob Stitt is a joker. Gimmick offense, and bad defense. I called it 2 years ago. His schemes aren't even close to good enough to dominate the FCS. Plus what kind of coach publicly blames his players. Montana went from a top 5 team, to not even a top 30 team. Disappointing, I used to look up to Montana as a program when NDSU was becoming D1.

[GodHelpTheBears]

A little more background...

Stec is signed through 2021. He will not be bought out at any point - the cost is simply too high for us to eat.

Men's basketball coach Paul Lusk is on the hot seat right now. Any pooling of booster funds will be going toward taking care of his situation and finding a replacement first.

Our athletic director is attached at the hip to our president. Our president is generally loved and he says our AD will be here as long as he is here.

From what I can tell no meaningful change will occur for at least the next 5 years.

[Mocs123]

If the past 6-7 years are any indication, it would be JSU. Multiple one possession loses, multiple OT losses, but just can't get over the hump.

[WestCoastAggie]

It honestly starts at the top with the Chancellor/President and BoR/BoT. If those entities want to have a successful athletics program, they will make efforts to do so.

From there, they'll hire a competent AD and support him/her financially, within school and system rules. From there, it will snowball with an AD that will hire contentment fund raising staff, increasing Alumni donations and corporate sponsorship, and hiring a competent Head Coach who will bring in talented coaches and student athletes.

It's what happened at A&T and NCCU, and is happening at PV and other HBCU programs.

[GodHelpTheBears]

It honestly starts at the top with the Chancellor/President and BoR/BoT. If those entities want to have a successful athletics program, they will make efforts to do so.

From there, they'll hire a competent AD and support him financially, within school and system rules. From there, it will snowball with an AD that will hire contentment fund raising staff, increasing Alumni donations and corporate sponsorship, and hiring a competent Head Coach who will bring in talented coaches and student athletes.

It's what happened at A&T and NCCU, and is happening at PV and other HBCU programs.

Ah, there are breaks at almost every part of the process at Missouri State.



We don't have a competent AD. Our President has no interest in replacing him.
We make token efforts to fund raise, and money will not be allocated to increase that.
We have an "alumni association", but no alumni chapters. From personal experience, their fund raising efforts consist of calling me at 9 pm on a weeknight.
We've been losing for so long that we don't know what a competent head coach looks like. As time goes on, Terry Allen looks more and more like a competent coach who just hit our program's low ceiling, he didn't look all that competent at the time because I did not realize how low the ceiling really was back then.


When it's going on 30 years since even token success in the sport, to me it is time to open a frank dialogue with your community. Does football actually matter at your school? If it does, where are the disconnects? How much money to fix it? Do you have enough money to fix it? Even if you do, is it worth it?

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

If Nicholls can turn the corner and be competitive, any program can.

It helps when you have a sophomore QB who is the nephew of a former NFL quarterback playing for you. Nicholls had nothing to be ashamed of when they played Georgia last season and Texas A&M yesterday.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

It honestly starts at the top with the Chancellor/President and BoR/BoT. If those entities want to have a successful athletics program, they will make efforts to do so.

From there, they'll hire a competent AD and support him financially, within school and system rules. From there, it will snowball with an AD that will hire contentment fund raising staff, increasing Alumni donations and corporate sponsorship, and hiring a competent Head Coach who will bring in talented coaches and student athletes.

It's what happened at A&T and NCCU, and is happening at PV and other HBCU programs.

I agree with that statement and then some. The "leadership team" we had at ETSU pre-Noland would not know what to do their vision for the school if they had a vision for the school. Compare that to today, our football team is playing in an on-campus outdoor stadium for the first time in decades, our men's basketball team took Florida to the limit in the NCAA tournament, our softball team made the NCAA tournament for the first time last season. I can go on and on about how ETSU is turning the corner as a university.

[GodHelpTheBears]

This may be the only time the Khmer Rouge is ever referenced in a college football context, but I would approach Missouri State with the "year zero" mindset. Essentially, Missouri State football did not exist before now - it would be treated as a newly started program. Literally everything that could be changed would, from the structure of the athletic department, to fundraising approaches, to alumni organization, to the socks the players wear. Coaches out, AD out, ideally the president and everyone on the Board of Governors would be out too, but that wouldn't happen. If another conference were willing to take our program, move there. Good thing we don't have any traditions, don't have to worry about cutting those out.

I would only support hiring a coach who agrees with this, who would change schemes and turn over the roster as quickly as possible. I'd even support what Bill Callahan did with the alumni at Nebraska, it only failed there because Nebraska's history is an asset. Here, it is a major liability, which is why I support uprooting it to the greatest extent possible.

[ASU33]

Mississippi Valley State

[WestCoastAggie]

Ah, there are breaks at almost every part of the process at Missouri State.



We don't have a competent AD. Our President has no interest in replacing him.
We make token efforts to fund raise, and money will not be allocated to increase that.
We have an "alumni association", but no alumni chapters. From personal experience, their fund raising efforts consist of calling me at 9 pm on a weeknight.
We've been losing for so long that we don't know what a competent head coach looks like. As time goes on, Terry Allen looks more and more like a competent coach who just hit our program's low ceiling, he didn't look all that competent at the time because I did not realize how low the ceiling really was back then.


When it's going on 30 years since even token success in the sport, to me it is time to open a frank dialogue with your community. Does football actually matter at your school? If it does, where are the disconnects? How much money to fix it? Do you have enough money to fix it? Even if you do, is it worth it?

I'm shocked a school as big as Missouri State doesn't have Alumni Association chapters. Those are essential to getting the message out from Administration to Alumni. I would assume you all would have alumni living in St. Louis, KC and other cities within a few hours of the school.

It just comes down to organizing everything. You all were looked at by the Sun Belt for expansion. You all have a competent budget to do things where you are currently conference-wise. It just comes down how things are at the top.

A&T let things get so bad, we had a freshman die during T&C tryouts 7 years ago. At that point, we had to make administrative changes to never let anything like that happen again.

[SU DOG]

Two coaches come to my mind, although I'm sure there are many other examples, that have won in seemingly impossible situations. One is what Jamey Chadwell was recently able to do at Chas. Southern. Talk about a place with few resources. The other is what Terry Bowden was able to do at Samford with VERY little administration support, and with a team had had been FCS for only 3 or so years. His 1991 Bulldogs Team would have been the NC, had the Penguin weather in Youngstown not been such a factor.

[GodHelpTheBears]

I'm shocked a school as big as Missouri State doesn't have Alumni Association chapters. Those are essential to getting the message out from Administration to Alumni. I would assume you all would have alumni living in St. Louis, KC and other cities within a few hours of the school.

It just comes down to organizing everything. You all were looked at by the Sun Belt for expansion. You all have a competent budget to do things where you are currently conference-wise. It just comes down how things are at the top.

A&T let things get so bad, we had a freshman die during T&C tryouts 7 years ago. At that point, we had to make administrative changes to never let anything like that happen again.

For the longest time, our grads pretty much stayed in southwest Missouri, and the Ozarks are so rural that I don't think there were any group of grads outside Springfield large enough for an alumni chapter system to take root. We do have more alumni in KC and STL now, but probably not as much as you are thinking.

Instead, something called "MarooNation" formed, which is an umbrella term for alumni events held in various places around the US. The only cities with frequent MarooNation events are Springfield, KC and STL. Cities like Dallas and Chicago only have them once a year, a sign that our presence is too small for "chapter" activity, stuff that happens monthly or more frequently and is more formally organized.

[SFA 93]

Texas State back when they were in the SLC.

Even when we were SLC Champions in 2010 and had a 24 point lead in the 4th quarter, in Nac and Texas State was in last place, we still lost to them.

We lost to them in 2009 as well when we were SLC Champions.

The three programs we struggle to beat in football

Sam Houston State 35-54-2 in the series, lost 6 straight, and 14 of the last 17.
Texas State 29-56-1 in the series, 6 straight losses, and 7 of the last 9
Central Arkansas 3-8 in the series and 1-4 in Conway and have lost 4 straight, and 5 of the last 6.

[UAalum72]

Surprised nobody mentioned Rhode Island - only two winning seasons in the last 32, and even with good stretches from 1952-57 and 1977-85, a winning percentage of .367 since World War II. But if even St. Francis can build to two straight winning seasons and at least five wins for the three years before that, anybody should be able to. The Red Flash previous to this recent success only had two winning seasons since reviving the program in 1978.

[Go Green]

Columbia is usually the Ivy's representative in these type of discussions.

[woffordgrad94]

I would have to say Presbyterian at the FCS level. Hotshot high school coach and PC alum Bobby Bentley found that out. After serving as head coach of high school alma mater Byrnes in Upstate South Carolina and building them into one of the nation's best teams, he thought he'd do the same at PC. After he spent some time at PC and saw what he was up against, he returned to Byrnes. I don't think any coach out there could turn PC into a winner, at least not any that would consider taking the job.

And of course there's Davidson...

[cx500d]

I would have to say Presbyterian at the FCS level. Hotshot high school coach and PC alum Bobby Bentley found that out. After serving as head coach of high school alma mater Byrnes in Upstate South Carolina and building them into one of the nation's best teams, he thought he'd do the same at PC. After he spent some time at PC and saw what he was up against, he returned to Byrnes. I don't think any coach out there could turn PC into a winner, at least not any that would consider taking the job.

And of course there's Davidson...

Davidson dead last in sagarin.


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[woffordgrad94]

Davidson has just ALWAYS been a bad program. They were normally a laughingstock while in the SoCon. I think they might have been forced out of the SoCon at one time due to their poor football performances. I know they returned to the conference for a while but they didn't compete in SoCon football when they did; only other sports. And now they can't even win in the Pioneer League. They are simply not a football school.

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson has just ALWAYS been a bad program. They were normally a laughingstock while in the SoCon. I think they might have been forced out of the SoCon at one time due to their poor football performances. I know they returned to the conference for a while but they didn't compete in SoCon football when they did; only other sports. And now they can't even win in the Pioneer League. They are simply not a football school.

Davidson played in what is now the Citrus Bowl in 1969. Four years later, they dropped football scholarships and tried to compete in the SoCon for another decade. It didn't work out well. From 1974 (the first non-scholarship season to 1986 (before they left for the Patriot), Davidson was 37-80-1 (.313). Of those 37, 33 were against Div. II and Div. III teams and none were against SoCon teams.

In 1986, DC played in the Patriot League for two seasons. Cumulative record: 0-20.

Davidson's last non-conference win over a Division I opponent was in 2005.

Can they get better? Yes. But it will take a different view of the program.

[Go...gate]

For whatever reason, I still own a copy of Athlon's 2004 I-A Football Preview. I skimmed it last night as I internalized yesterday's Missouri State game. While parts of it are amusing to read (how soon will Bill Callahan compete for national championships at Nebraska?), I was intrigued by a section where the writers posed various questions to comtemporary head coaches, such as "which coach do you try to emulate?" (the majority answer of "Joe Paterno" aged pretty poorly, too bad we can't make fun of certain people because the coaches were allowed to remain anonymous), but one question caught my eye because I find it personally relevant:

"Are there programs you just can't win at?"

This question received the most diverse answers in the column. Anyone who has read anything I have posted on here knows my answer to this. I just found it intriguing that head coaches of major programs would agree.

To expand the scope of this thread, if you were a credible booster of a Missouri State or Indiana (a program called out by name by a coach in the article as being impossible to win at), what do you think would need to be done to raise programs like this to national competitiveness? Would it be possible, or how realistic would it be?

It surely did.

[citdog]

Davidson played in what is now the Citrus Bowl in 1969. Four years later, they dropped football scholarships and tried to compete in the SoCon for another decade. It didn't work out well. From 1974 (the first non-scholarship season to 1986 (before they left for the Patriot), Davidson was 37-80-1 (.313). Of those 37, 33 were against Div. II and Div. III teams and none were against SoCon teams.

In 1986, DC played in the Patriot League for two seasons. Cumulative record: 0-20.

Davidson's last non-conference win over a Division I opponent was in 2005.

Can they get better? Yes. But it will take a different view of the program.

Davidson doesn't care about football because the only reason they have a team is so that they can play DI basketball. Unlike Wofford they aren't smart enough to understand that you can be good at BOTH.

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson doesn't care about football because the only reason they have a team is so that they can play DI basketball. Unlike Wofford they aren't smart enough to understand that you can be good at BOTH.

A football team is not required to play D-I basketball.

[citdog]

A football team is not required to play D-I basketball.

But IF you sponsor football it must be DI to be DI in basketball. You filthy jesuits are the "davidson of the north."

[DFW HOYA]

But IF you sponsor football it must be DI to be DI in basketball. You filthy jesuits are the "davidson of the north."

Yes and no. If you want to play NCAA football, the "Dayton rule" does apply. However, Davidson could always play club football or sprint football but choose not to.

As for Georgetown, they were playing on-campus football when the Military College of South Carolina was still closed from the Civil War, so it's been around a while. But the strategic challenges for football between Davidson and Georgetown are about as different as VMI and West Point.

[citdog]

Yes and no. If you want to play NCAA football, the "Dayton rule" does apply. However, Davidson could always play club football or sprint football but choose not to.

As for Georgetown, they were playing on-campus football when the Military College of South Carolina was still closed from the Civil War, so it's been around a while. But the strategic challenges for football between Davidson and Georgetown are about as different as VMI and West Point.

Yep Georgetown football has QUITE the tradition! As a Charleston person I have a healthy appreciation for tradition. I just fail to see ANYTHING but the richest sect of the richest church in the world "cry poverty" and I LAUGH.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown all-time record: 509-421-32 (.529)
Citadel all-time record: 499-548-2 (.499)

[citdog]

Georgetown all-time record: 509-421-32 (.529)
Citadel all-time record: 499-548-2 (.499)

My people don't follow a "false messiah" 1
holy church of rome 0

SCOREBOARD! lol

[DFW HOYA]

My people don't follow a "false messiah" 1


http://www.citadel.edu/root/catholic

[kalm]

Hire the right young coach.

[tierre]

Right now I would have to say MVSU. Until MVSU makes a commitment to winning it will be same results different coach every 4 years. Everyone is offering 63 scholarships while MVSU might be giving 40. Their in a financial bind right now. I hope their 2 money games that they had against North Dakota St. and Southern Illinois help them add more scholarships so they can compete in the SWAC.

[Serpentor]

My people don't follow a "false messiah" 1
holy church of rome 0

SCOREBOARD! lol

Hating on Jesus. That's a 15-yard penalty.

[Model Citizen]

The obvious answer is Austin Peay...29 straight losses. We're about to find out whether they can handle a 4-7 non-scholarship outfit.

When people talk about the possibility of Morehead State returning to scholarship football, the example is Austin Peay. No wonder Morehead won't spend the money.

[skinny_uncle]

Misery State has a bad track record. When Terry Allen couldn't win there, I was amazed.
Then again, there are guys who find a way to win anywhere. There was talk of cancelling the program at SIU until Jerry Kill came along.

[grayghost06]

VMI. Hasn't had a winning season since 1981.

[Bucs2016]

Again I think it rather amusing that a civilian school that is no different than any of the other 800 just like it wants to throw in the towel when The Citadel is a Top 15 team.

The Citadel is a "civilian school" buddy. Like 70% of Citadel graduates never join the military. Its a military themed school. Not a military school that mandates service like Army or Navy.

[Bucs2016]

I dont believe in the idea of a school that you just cant win at. Seeing our team and where we started in 1991 to where we are now...with what little we have in resources and facilities....you can win anywhere. Theres a ceiling of course. We will never be an NDSU dynasty program. Not with these facilities. But especially for schools in the South, if you can recruit you can win.

Id say Savannah State for whatever reason seems to not be able to for some reason. Not sure why. Great city. Dense talent to recruit from in GA. Its not exactly Harvard either academically.

VMI is a challenging place also. Obviously a unique place to recruit to....but they dont have the bonuses like Citadel does of being located in Charleston.

But you CAN win there or anywhere. Just need to right staff and some luck in recruiting.

[Bisonator]

It takes the right coach at the right time to change the culture of a program. That and you need the administration and community to buy in as well. That's what happened at NDSU in 1963 when they hired Darrell Mudra. The rest as they say is history.

[uni88]

It takes the right coach at the right time to change the culture of a program. That and you need the administration and community to buy in as well. That's what happened at NDSU in 1963 when they hired Darrell Mudra. The rest as they say is history.Dr. Victory!

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[Bucs2016]

It takes the right coach at the right time to change the culture of a program. That and you need the administration and community to buy in as well. That's what happened at NDSU in 1963 when they hired Darrell Mudra. The rest as they say is history.

"Culture" yes KEY word. Its amazing when you see teams who have all the size and speed, and even ability, but cant seem to win. Internal culture of a program is so critical. Its determines if players play up or down to their potential. One of our biggest hurdles was exactly that. We had this awful "wait for bad things to happen" mindset. Years of critically bad turnovers, game changing penalties and injuries, etc, always got us. It was like we expected it. Our 2005 conference championship team wasnt much different athletically from the 2003 1-11 team. But mentally and culturally it was night and day.

I imagine culture is what fuels dynasties like NDSU. You arrive on campus and just fall into the championship habits...or you get sent home. A coach's dream!!

[citdog]

The Citadel is a "civilian school" buddy. Like 70% of Citadel graduates never join the military. Its a military themed school. Not a military school that mandates service like Army or Navy.

The Citadel is an "Essential Military College" according to the Dept of Defense. I'll take their word for it. Guy.

[Bucs2016]

The Citadel is an "Essential Military College" according to the Dept of Defense. I'll take their word for it. Guy.

Yet 70% of Citadel grads never spend a single day in the military.

[citdog]

Yet 70% of Citadel grads never spend a single day in the military.

That 30% ain't nothing to sneer at. The performance of those who chose not to make a career out of the military in our wars when called to the colors has been OUTSTANDING. I think the school has aeeved its purpose quite well.

[Bucs2016]

That 30% ain't nothing to sneer at. The performance of those who chose not to make a career out of the military in our wars when called to the colors has been OUTSTANDING. I think the school has aeeved its purpose quite well.

Absolutely agree. Was just saying...yall are a "civilian school" also. And we salute the 30% who go on to serve in the military...just like ROTC students at all the other civilian schools.

[citdog]

Absolutely agree. Was just saying...yall are a "civilian school" also. And we salute the 30% who go on to serve in the military...just like ROTC students at all the other civilian schools.

The Citadel is a 24hr a day 7 days a week military enviroment. That is the exact opposite of what the word civilian means. Every Cadet takes 4 years of ROTC which makes every one qualified for a commission. I understand your need to run the school down beacause you attended one that is far beneath it but those blatantly incorrect statements needed correction.

[DFW HOYA]

The Citadel is an "Essential Military College" according to the Dept of Defense. I'll take their word for it. Guy.

The Citadel is one of only six senior military colleges as defined by US law. The other five are:

Norwich University
Texas A&M University
University of North Georgia
Virginia Military Institute
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

[Bucs2016]

The Citadel is a 24hr a day 7 days a week military enviroment. That is the exact opposite of what the word civilian means. Every Cadet takes 4 years of ROTC which makes every one qualified for a commission. I understand your need to run the school down beacause you attended one that is far beneath it but those blatantly incorrect statements needed correction.

Not knocking it one bit. Yes its a military themed environment. Many police academies are intensive 24 hr a day environments similar to that...doesnt make them THE military.

A civilian is a person who is NOT an officially enlisted or commissioned member of the military or a police force. Citadel cadets are not any of those right?

Just sayin....when you call other schools "civilian school"...man...yall are too. Army isnt. Navy and USAFA arent. Coast Guard Academy isn't. Citadel, VMI, Texas A&M cadets are all civilians until they're IN the military.

[ASU33]

I dont believe in the idea of a school that you just cant win at. Seeing our team and where we started in 1991 to where we are now...with what little we have in resources and facilities....you can win anywhere. Theres a ceiling of course. We will never be an NDSU dynasty program. Not with these facilities. But especially for schools in the South, if you can recruit you can win.

Id say Savannah State for whatever reason seems to not be able to for some reason. Not sure why. Great city. Dense talent to recruit from in GA. Its not exactly Harvard either academically.

VMI is a challenging place also. Obviously a unique place to recruit to....but they dont have the bonuses like Citadel does of being located in Charleston.

But you CAN win there or anywhere. Just need to right staff and some luck in recruiting.



I agree. Savannah State even struggled as a D2 program and its baffling because the campus and city are beautiful.

[Bucs2016]

I agree. Savannah State even struggled as a D2 program and its baffling because the campus and city are beautiful.

Yep Ive never understood it. Not to mention how close they are to Jacksonville, one of the most talent dense metro areas in the South. How can they not AT LEAST have been a .500 D2 program or have an occasional 7 win FCS season??? Savannah is such a great city to be an 18-23 year old.

[citdog]

Not knocking it one bit. Yes its a military themed environment. Many police academies are intensive 24 hr a day environments similar to that...doesnt make them THE military.

A civilian is a person who is NOT an officially enlisted or commissioned member of the military or a police force. Citadel cadets are not any of those right?

Just sayin....when you call other schools "civilian school"...man...yall are too. Army isnt. Navy and USAFA arent. Coast Guard Academy isn't. Citadel, VMI, Texas A&M cadets are all civilians until they're IN the military.

So The Citadel, The MILITARY College of South Carolina means not MILITARY then. AGAIN I UNDERSTAND. I'd hate to go out into the world as a ladson southern buccaneer too.

[Bucs2016]

So The Citadel, The MILITARY College of South Carolina means not MILITARY then. AGAIN I UNDERSTAND. I'd hate to go out into the world as a ladson southern buccaneer too.

Georgia Military College.
Military Magnet High School in Charleston.
Camden Military Academy in Columbia.
New Mexico Military College.

Not military colleges.

If a Citadel junior comes back to his room...packs his stuff...and leaves all property belonging to the college....and leaves campus, says I quit...and drives to his parents house and never comes back...whats his military punishment? Or...is he free to go, with no consequences at all?

Because at West Point you couldnt do that, you are IN the Army.

[citdog]

Georgia Military College.
Military Magnet High School in Charleston.
Camden Military Academy in Columbia.

Not military colleges.

If a Citadel sophomore comes back to his room...packs his stuff...and leaves all property belonging to the college....and leaves campus, says I quit...and drives to his parents house and never comes back...whats his military punishment? Or...is he free to go, with no consequences at all?

Georgia Military College is a JUNIOR Military College
High School
High School

The Citadel and VMI "Essential MILITARY Colleges". Again I'll take the DOD's opinion on the subject before I take a religious fanatic from a second rate baptist college.

[Bucs2016]

Georgia Military College is a JUNIOR Military College
High School
High School

The Citadel and VMI "Essential MILITARY Colleges". Again I'll take the DOD's opinion on the subject before I take a religious fanatic from a second rate baptist college.

Ok. So not THE military. You cant just walk away and quit the military. But Citadel cadets are not IN the military and can walk away anytime without consequences. Military themed. But still civilians. Not knocking it, just being factual. Thats one thing us folks in Charleston find amusing about Citadel folks....when one of the 70% who never go into the military refer to us as "civilians" haha..well.... Citadel cadets are also "civilians" until they enlist, take a commission or become a cop. Fact.

[citdog]

Ok. So not THE military. You cant just walk away and quit the military. But Citadel cadets are not IN the military and can walk away anytime without consequences. Military themed. But still civilians. Not knocking it, just being factual. Thats one thing us folks in Charleston find amusing about Citadel folks....when one of the 70% who never go into the military refer to us as "civilians". Citadel cadets are also "civilians" until they enlist, take a commission or become a cop. Fact.

Are you a christian or a baptist? "us folks in Charleston" lol. You go straight to hell you ohio transplant (probably). My people are OF Charleston and if you have been there longer than a week you recognize your betters you "North Area Trash". All Cadets are enrolled in ROTC...

[Bucs2016]

Are you a christian or a baptist? "us folks in Charleston" lol. You go straight to hell you ohio transplant (probably). My people are OF Charleston and if you have been there longer than a week you recognize your betters you "North Area Trash". All Cadets are enrolled in ROTC...

Im from the upstate not Ohio.

ROTC is cool. Wando HS has Air Force ROTC. Is that "in the military"???

[citdog]

Im from the upstate not Ohio.

ROTC is cool. Wando HS has Air Force ROTC. Is that "in the military"???

Upstate mill worker white trash baptist! You type and spell pretty good so why didn't you go to furman?

Wando has JROTC. I could explain the difference to you but I have educated a Pickens County Boy enough today.

[Bucs2016]

Upstate mill worker white trash baptist! You type and spell pretty good so why didn't you go to furman?

Wando has JROTC. I could explain the difference to you but I have educated a Pickens County Boy enough today.

Hmmm. The difference? Well....as a "Senior Military College" The Citadel gets an exception in federal law in that its cadets can do all 4 years of ROTC and NOT have any commitment after graduation to the military. Whereas normal ROTC by law means you can do 2 years but for 3 and 4 you must make a committment and join the actual military.

So....one might say a junior at CSU who is in the Air Force ROTC is far more "in the military" than 70% of Citadel cadets because that kid will actually be IN the military.

See? A SMC designation simply means you have a 24/7 military themed campus and your cadets can do ROTC all 4 years without actually having to join the real military. Whereas the ROTC kids at places you call "civilian colleges"...they actually have to join (get to join) the real military.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senior_Military_College

[Catbooster]

I believe there are programs where you just can't win (not absolutely can't, but extremely unlikely). But that's if we define program as the institution, their support, coaching staff, etc.

I don't believe there are institutions where you can't win, if you are willing to change some of those variables - particularly the culture. Just hiring a new coach won't necessarily help, if the administration, institutional support, etc. doesn't support it. Some places are harder than others and may almost require the perfect storm of administration and coaching changes.

[citdog]

Hmmm. The difference? Well....as a "Senior Military College" The Citadel gets an exception in federal law in that its cadets can do all 4 years of ROTC and NOT have any commitment after graduation to the military. Whereas normal ROTC by law means you can do 2 years but for 3 and 4 you must make a committment and join the actual military.

So....one might say a junior at CSU who is in the Air Force ROTC is far more "in the military" than 70% of Citadel cadets because that kid will actually be IN the military.

See? A SMC designation simply means you have a 24/7 military themed campus and your cadets can do ROTC all 4 years without actually having to join the real military. Whereas the ROTC kids at places you call "civilian colleges"...they actually have to join (get to join) the real military.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senior_Military_College

Do ALL the students at those civilian colleges take ROTC? You failed to mention that Cadets at the "Essential Military Colleges" can receive commissions in the REGULAR Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or Coast Guard. The best that ROTC grads from civilian colleges can receive is a RESERVE commission. Meaning that a The Citadel or VMI graduate RANKS them...

[mamberso]

Nice to see Western Carolina turning things around recently, but it's hard to imagine them being relevant on a national level. Nicholls had been brought up. They've been bad for a long time. Savannah State, Idaho State, Sacramento State are others that come to mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bucs2016]

Do ALL the students at those civilian colleges take ROTC? You failed to mention that Cadets at the "Essential Military Colleges" can receive commissions in the REGULAR Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or Coast Guard. The best that ROTC grads from civilian colleges can receive is a RESERVE commission. Meaning that a The Citadel or VMI graduate RANKS them...

No. As I said yall ARE a military themed college. Others are not...even if they offer ROTC. But thats still not IN THE real military. Yes cadets can join the military if they want. 70% dont...they REMAIN civilians. The term "civilian" is defined as anyone who is not in a real military or police force.

[Bucs2016]

Nice to see Western Carolina turning things around recently, but it's hard to imagine them being relevant on a national level. Nicholls had been brought up. They've been bad for a long time. Savannah State, Idaho State, Sacramento State are others that come to mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Probably need to define "winning" also because for some programs it would mean 6 or 7 wins. At others like NDSU or JMU it means 10+ and deep playoff runs. So somewhere like VMI or Presbyterian...never gonna win like NDSU. But with the right staff they could be consistent 7 or 8 win programs.

[citdog]

No. As I said yall ARE a military themed college. Others are not...even if they offer ROTC. But that still not IN THE real military. Yes cadets can join the military if they want. 70% dont...they REMAIN civilians. The term "civilian" is defined as anyone who is not in a real military or police force.

Nope that is how YOU choose to narrowly define it for the purpose of this "argument". The Citadel is a MILITARY COLLEGE as defined by the Dept of Defense. ladson southern isn't defined as a GOOD college by ANYONE.

[DFW HOYA]

Back to the topic at hand, are there programs you just can't win at?

Take these five factors and rate them on a scale of poor, fair, good, and great. if a school does not score good or better in three of these five, it's going to have a hard time competing.

1. Institutional Support
2. Recruiting
3. Coaching Staff
4. Budget
5. Facilities

[Bucs2016]

Nope that is how YOU choose to narrowly define it for the purpose of this "argument". The Citadel is a MILITARY COLLEGE as defined by the Dept of Defense. ladson southern isn't defined as a GOOD college by ANYONE.

Ok. So upon graduation do Citadel cadets get a DD 214? Or...must they join the real military first then leave to get one? Everyone who was in the military gets one. /thread.

[Bucs2016]

Back to the topic at hand, are there programs you just can't win at?

Take these five factors and rate them on a scale of poor, fair, good, and great. if a school does not score good or better in three of these five, it's going to have a hard time competing.

1. Institutional Support
2. Recruiting
3. Coaching Staff
4. Budget
5. Facilities

So true. #4 and #5 are very dependent on #1. In fact you basically rank their 5 by importance perfectly!

[Catbooster]

Back to the topic at hand, are there programs you just can't win at?

Take these five factors and rate them on a scale of poor, fair, good, and great. if a school does not score good or better in three of these five, it's going to have a hard time competing.

1. Institutional Support
2. Recruiting
3. Coaching Staff
4. Budget
5. Facilities
You could probably add alumni support to that list.

[citdog]

Ok. So upon graduation do Citadel cadets get a DD 214? Or...must they join the real military first then leave to get one? Everyone who was in the military gets one. /thread.

Our graduates receive a diploma and a guaranteed job as a 2nd Lt. if they want it. What do ladson southern grads receive?

[Bucs2016]

Our graduates receive a diploma and a guaranteed job as a 2nd Lt. if they want it. What do ladson southern grads receive?

Got it. So Citadel cadets ARE civilians. Thanks for clarification.

[citdog]

Got it. So Citadel cadets ARE civilians. Thanks for clarification.

Those Cadets who do not choose to take a commission in the armed forces enter the civilian workforce. You know, no uniform, no pt, no personal appearance inspections, no taps....you know the civilian world....

[Bucs2016]

Those Cadets who do not choose to take a commission in the armed forces enter the civilian workforce. You know, no uniform, no pt, no personal appearance inspections, no taps....you know the civilian world....

So...a uniform, pt, appearance standards, inspections, taps...that makes one not a civilian? Georgia Military College does all that. Many police academies do too. Hell....everything except taps happens at college football camp!!! Unis. Room and locker inspection. Appearance standards. PT.

Sorry man. Going to Citadel is NOT being in the military. Citadel students are civilians. Period. Until you join the real military or a police force...you are a civilian.

[cx500d]

Ok. So upon graduation do Citadel cadets get a DD 214? Or...must they join the real military first then leave to get one? Everyone who was in the military gets one. /thread.


You wouldn't know the difference between a DD214, DD250, and DD254

[kdinva]

You failed to mention that Cadets at the "Essential Military Colleges" can receive commissions in the REGULAR Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or Coast Guard. The best that ROTC grads from civilian colleges can receive is a RESERVE commission. Meaning that a The Citadel or VMI graduate RANKS them...

....and reveille six days/week, taps every nite. "Call to quarters" twice every weekday, no choice about the "wardrobe" (meaning: no "one upsmanship" with others), 3 one-hour periods of physical training (separate from the ROTC agenda), dress parade every Friday @ 4:30 PM (including all athletes not in-season)......

[citdog]

....and reveille six days/week, taps every nite. "Call to quarters" twice every weekday, no choice about the "wardrobe" (meaning: no "one upsmanship" with others), 3 one-hour periods of physical training (separate from the ROTC agenda), dress parade every Friday @ 4:30 PM (including all athletes not in-season)......

Sounds ALOT like the schedule at a civilian college....

Why do I even bother with the ignorant Upstate baptist portion of our posters??

[cx500d]

Sounds ALOT like the schedule at a civilian college....

Why do I even bother with the ignorant Upstate baptist portion of our posters??

I thought about going to the Citadel, but I wanted to have fun in college. I figured there would be plenty of time for the suck meter to be pegged later in life....and I was right.


http://milspecmonkey.com/patches/suck-meter-batch1.jpg

[citdog]

I thought about going to the Citadel, but I wanted to have fun in college. I figured there would be plenty of time for the suck meter to be pegged later in life....and I was right.


http://milspecmonkey.com/patches/suck-meter-batch1.jpg

My getting sucked meter went all the way to the right each weekend by College of Charleston and ladson southern girls. Hence ALL the tension from the buccaneer boys. They tried all week to get their little baptist girls to put out. 30 seconds around a REAL MAN on a Friday night and those baptist chicks are on their knees like JESUS HIMSELF was walking by... A VERY TRUE STORY BRO...

[cx500d]

My getting sucked meter went all the way to the right each weekend by College of Charleston and ladson southern girls. Hence ALL the tension from the buccaneer boys. They tried all week to get their little baptist girls to put out. 30 seconds around a REAL MAN on a Friday night and those baptist chicks are on their knees like JESUS HIMSELF was walking by... A VERY TRUE STORY BRO...
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to citdog again.

[Bucs2016]

My getting sucked meter went all the way to the right each weekend by College of Charleston and ladson southern girls. Hence ALL the tension from the buccaneer boys. They tried all week to get their little baptist girls to put out. 30 seconds around a REAL MAN on a Friday night and those baptist chicks are on their knees like JESUS HIMSELF was walking by... A VERY TRUE STORY BRO...

Haha...all we did was wait until you guys had curfew. Citadel cadet would wine em and dine em til curfew...then they'd be oit til 4am with the Bucs and Cougars! Sorry but true! The girls downtown knew Citadel boys would buy em dinner, take em to a movie, walk on the beach, open doors for them.....but also spend the day bragging to her about how many pushups he did and how his shoes outshined his rival company's, and how disgusted he is by "civilians" even though he is one himself. Meanwhile shes texting a CoC or CSU athlete about what club they're getting drunk at later! True!

[Bucs2016]

You wouldn't know the difference between a DD214, DD250, and DD254

Correct. I wasnt in the military. Neither are Citadel cadets. You must join the real military to be in the military. Unlike some of them however I don't go around posing like I was. A person is, and always will be, a civilian unless they join the actual real military or a police force.

[Bucs2016]

....and reveille six days/week, taps every nite. "Call to quarters" twice every weekday, no choice about the "wardrobe" (meaning: no "one upsmanship" with others), 3 one-hour periods of physical training (separate from the ROTC agenda), dress parade every Friday @ 4:30 PM (including all athletes not in-season)......

Sounds very strenuous...never said it wasnt harder than other colleges!!

[chattownmocs]

Again I think it rather amusing that a civilian school that is no different than any of the other 800 just like it wants to throw in the towel when The Citadel is a Top 15 team.

Why wouldn't bad-ass military guys who have played football their whole lives be able to beat civilians in football?

[ElCid]

I thought about going to the Citadel, but I wanted to have fun in college. I figured there would be plenty of time for the suck meter to be pegged later in life....and I was right.


I had a blast in college. Plus Charleston was a great place to go to school in.

[CID1990]

Haha...all we did was wait until you guys had curfew. Citadel cadet would wine em and dine em til curfew...then they'd be oit til 4am with the Bucs and Cougars! Sorry but true! The girls downtown knew Citadel boys would buy em dinner, take em to a movie, walk on the beach, open doors for them.....but also spend the day bragging to her about how many pushups he did and how his shoes outshined his rival company's, and how disgusted he is by "civilians" even though he is one himself. Meanwhile shes texting a CoC or CSU athlete about what club they're getting drunk at later! True!

Dude- Baptist was a complete unknown downtown at best, and a bad joke at worst

Nobody at CofC or The Citadel gave a rip about Baptist - you guys were the nuts who dwelt out past North Chuck and couldn't get in anywhere else. Hell even Trident Tech and Johnson and Wales were better options. It's no wonder they changed the name to CSU- people kept thinking it was somewhere up near Orangeburg. I know I did

If Citdog was plooking Baptist College girls then my opinion of him dropped off a bit

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/793ef05559d793f5ae247056851a4ca5.jpg

[Lehigh'98]

Dude- Baptist was a complete unknown downtown at best, and a bad joke at worst

Nobody at CofC or The Citadel gave a rip about Baptist - you guys were the nuts who dwelt out past North Chuck and couldn't get in anywhere else. Hell even Trident Tech and Johnson and Wales were better options. It's no wonder they changed the name to CSU- people kept thinking it was somewhere up near Orangeburg. I know I did

If Citdog was plooking Baptist College girls then my opinion of him dropped off a bit

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/793ef05559d793f5ae247056851a4ca5.jpg

You take what you can get when you are a kicker.

[citdog]

Those baptist college chicks were VERY religious! Oh GOD! OH GOD!!!!


Besides I was like this then...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UH2raPtbw4

[clenz]

Depends on what you mean "win".

In the MVFC I'd go
Indiana State - will never be more than a 4-6 win team with occasionally 7 win seasons
Missouri State - they don't have the financial support (or ability) to compete. Have the facilities but not the fans/support from fans/admin. Their recruiting grounds doesn't lend itself to the same style that the rest of the MVFC. They are playing chutes and ladders, the rest of the conference is playing....running of the bulls

[Bucs2016]

Dude- Baptist was a complete unknown downtown at best, and a bad joke at worst

Nobody at CofC or The Citadel gave a rip about Baptist - you guys were the nuts who dwelt out past North Chuck and couldn't get in anywhere else. Hell even Trident Tech and Johnson and Wales were better options. It's no wonder they changed the name to CSU- people kept thinking it was somewhere up near Orangeburg. I know I did

If Citdog was plooking Baptist College girls then my opinion of him dropped off a bit

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170912/793ef05559d793f5ae247056851a4ca5.jpg

What years were you there?

[JSUSoutherner]

Those baptist college chicks were VERY religious! Oh GOD! OH GOD!!!!


Besides I was like this then...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UH2raPtbw4

You were a boy with an IQ of 75 and leg braces?

What's changed?

[citdog]

You were a boy with an IQ of 75 and leg braces?

What's changed?


I can read a little now.

[Sycamore62]

Depends on what you mean "win".

In the MVFC I'd go
Indiana State - will never be more than a 4-6 win team with occasionally 7 win seasons
Missouri State - they don't have the financial support (or ability) to compete. Have the facilities but not the fans/support from fans/admin. Their recruiting grounds doesn't lend itself to the same style that the rest of the MVFC. They are playing chutes and ladders, the rest of the conference is playing....running of the bulls

If we were to jump conferences we could win 7 regularly

[fmftballmgr]

Can an school win at football when most of the so called fan base is running around saying they are just a basketball school?

[clenz]

Can an school win at football when most of the so called fan base is running around saying they are just a basketball school?
UNI does.

[Bucs2016]

Can an school win at football when most of the so called fan base is running around saying they are just a basketball school?

Absolutely. Last few ACC football championship games had Duke or UNC in it.

[fmftballmgr]

Those schools probably have equal balance of recruiting and can recruit where ever they want

At Murray because of financial restraints the football the recruiting footprint is alot smaller than what the basketball can recruit.

[Sycamore62]

Can an school win at football when most of the so called fan base is running around saying they are just a basketball school?

A lot of those programs aren't basketball either. They just say they are.

[fmftballmgr]

A lot of those programs aren't basketball either. They just say they are.


very true

[Bucs2016]

Those schools probably have equal balance of recruiting and can recruit where ever they want

At Murray because of financial restraints the football the recruiting footprint is alot smaller than what the basketball can recruit.

Meh. Yalls facilities are much better than Charleston Southern. Yall are a public school with more funding. SC has more high school talent and we get GA and FL sinces its near us. But Kentucky isnt a bad state...plus you're next to Ohio and PA, both talent deep states.

You can win at Murray. If you can win at CSU with our facilities you can do it just about anywhere.

[GodHelpTheBears]

A lot of those programs aren't basketball either. They just say they are.

Guilty - although I don't say it because I am a millennial. Hard to argue we are when I was 6 the last time we made the NCAAs.

At this point, we are a baseball school and lucky to be even that. Our athletic department is in near complete shambles.

[clenz]

Guilty - although I don't say it because I am a millennial. Hard to argue we are when I was 6 the last time we made the NCAAs.

At this point, we are a baseball school and lucky to be even that. Our athletic department is in near complete shambles.
Volleyball is pretty good

[GodHelpTheBears]

Volleyball is pretty good

Any time a fan of another team tries to tell me "hey man, it's not that bad", I usually shut them down with responses like this...

...unless you get there first. Well done, thank you.

[fmftballmgr]

Meh. Yalls facilities are much better than Charleston Southern. Yall are a public school with more funding. SC has more high school talent and we get GA and FL sinces its near us. But Kentucky isnt a bad state...plus you're next to Ohio and PA, both talent deep states.

You can win at Murray. If you can win at CSU with our facilities you can do it just about anywhere.

I think we can also, but we have had some many down years and a coach who should have never been there, it is just going to take a a change in attitude and get rid of the whole here we go again when something goes wrong. I think we have the coach who can do it, just do we give him the time. A lot of recruits are from Mississippi, Alabama, KY and Tenn. But the OVC is a tougher league than when I was in school. JSU was brought in, UTM has stepped up their game, TSU is usually strong and of course we still have EIU and EKU to go through

[Bisonoline]

Any time a fan of another team tries to tell me "hey man, it's not that bad", I usually shut them down with responses like this...

...unless you get there first. Well done, thank you.

What happened to the Lady Bears?

[Schism55]

What happened to the Lady Bears?
Where is Jackie Stiles and her SMS jersey when you need her??

[GodHelpTheBears]

What happened to the Lady Bears?

Cheryl's right hand woman did okay for several years, then there was a dropoff.

While that occurred, the Drury coach went on a bit of a tear at D-II and the local yokels demanded she be hired. She was. She didn't do so well. Kellie Harper, former NC State coach replaced her. She recruited well, but on-court results haven't aligned.

During this time women's basketball fell out of being a revenue sport for us. We also built an 11,000 seat arena we didn't need and couldn't afford.

[crusader11]

Unsure if Georgetown has been mentioned in this thread yet, but they will forever being swimming upstream being the only school in the PL not to offer scholarships.

[clenz]

Any time a fan of another team tries to tell me "hey man, it's not that bad", I usually shut them down with responses like this...

...unless you get there first. Well done, thank you.
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.

I know men's basketball and football are the faces of a university athletic department and those that drive the bus from fan support and financial support. However, it is important to takes a macro view of the athletic department successes at times.

Missouri State had 4 MVC regular season titles last year as an athletic department. That is the second most in the conference, behind only WSU last year. The facilities MSU have are second to none, top to bottom, in the MVC - though UNI has plans in place to get right there with MSU.

All that said, MSU is a prime example of proof that football and MBB drive the bus and set the tone for how the AD is perceived. Football has been a disaster at MSU since 1990. They haven't been in the NCAA tournament since 1999 for mens basketball.

Hate to say it but the hayday of MSU was 1987-1992. The MBB team made the NCAA tournament in 87, 88, 89, 90, 92. They didn't win a game in that entire time, but they made it. In 89 the FB team went 10-3. In 90 it was 9-3. They've won more than 6 games twice since 1990 - 93 and 96

Other sports at MSU have been good - but that isn't acceptable in today's athletic world

[Daytripper]

Can an school win at football when most of the so called fan base is running around saying they are just a basketball school?

SFA?

[TheValleyRaider]

Unsure if Georgetown has been mentioned in this thread yet, but they will forever being swimming upstream being the only school in the PL not to offer scholarships.

It's the obvious answer, but I feel like if Georgetown actually made the institutional commitment ($$$) consistent with some of the rest of the league, they have the name recognition to get some players and eyeballs. There is a scenario where the Hoyas are successful, but it requires a little bit of active effort on the part of the administration. I've seen some numbers around here, and if I recall correctly, Georgetown lags significantly behind the other 6 schools.

If there's a school in the PL that really seems unlikely to win even with the financial commitment, Bucknell might be it. Basketball is their marquee sport, and I don't think they are really that far behind the rest of the League when it comes to money. They just don't really seems to care what football does.

[GodHelpTheBears]

I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.

I know men's basketball and football are the faces of a university athletic department and those that drive the bus from fan support and financial support. However, it is important to takes a macro view of the athletic department successes at times.

Missouri State had 4 MVC regular season titles last year as an athletic department. That is the second most in the conference, behind only WSU last year. The facilities MSU have are second to none, top to bottom, in the MVC - though UNI has plans in place to get right there with MSU.

All that said, MSU is a prime example of proof that football and MBB drive the bus and set the tone for how the AD is perceived. Football has been a disaster at MSU since 1990. They haven't been in the NCAA tournament since 1999 for mens basketball.

Hate to say it but the hayday of MSU was 1987-1992. The MBB team made the NCAA tournament in 87, 88, 89, 90, 92. They didn't win a game in that entire time, but they made it. In 89 the FB team went 10-3. In 90 it was 9-3. They've won more than 6 games twice since 1990 - 93 and 96

Other sports at MSU have been good - but that isn't acceptable in today's athletic world

Until my relatives in other states start noticing our volleyball team, I have to put up with the "you lost to Washburn?" and "what happened, Hammons Center used to be full every night!"

The annoying part, to me, is detailed in my sig. The only untenable situation is the one you are in right now. Things clearly are not working for what matters - so what does our leadership do? Double down, every single time. I've even tried to work a gender discrimination angle into it - Lusk, Allen and Stec accomplish nothing and get contract extensions the university cannot afford to buy out. Nyla Milleson wins a regular season conference championship, then has one down year with a young team and gets canned. The party line was that ticket sales went down, but we were selling out JQH when Cuonzo Martin was here and now we're lucky to get 5,000 in the building, paid and unpaid.

I was shocked when our President said he wanted MSU to be Missouri's choice for undergraduate education. My God, he articulated ambition! I can't remember the last time anyone did that here.

[tierre]

I hope Mississippi Valley can get more money for scholarships. MVSU hasn't had a winning season since 2006 and is the only team to never win the SWAC.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

My getting sucked meter went all the way to the right each weekend by College of Charleston and ladson southern girls. Hence ALL the tension from the buccaneer boys. They tried all week to get their little baptist girls to put out. 30 seconds around a REAL MAN on a Friday night and those baptist chicks are on their knees like JESUS HIMSELF was walking by... A VERY TRUE STORY BRO...

So who was the real man? A friend of yours?

[Sader87]

Bucknell doesn't care about football and GTown seemingly doesn't have the resources or the where with all to care about football....the PL in football moving forward will be between Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, Colgate and Holy Cross.

[fmftballmgr]

Meh. Yalls facilities are much better than Charleston Southern. Yall are a public school with more funding. SC has more high school talent and we get GA and FL sinces its near us. But Kentucky isnt a bad state...plus you're next to Ohio and PA, both talent deep states.

You can win at Murray. If you can win at CSU with our facilities you can do it just about anywhere.


With our facilities we should be winning more. We went though a couple coaches one should have never been there and the other try to alienate the former players. The coach we have now is a good young coach we just have to get out of the mindset of oh crap here we go again and think We are going to pull this out. I thought last year we were over that after beating 2 top 25 teams in a row but then we turn around and get blow out at TTU

[Bucs2016]

With our facilities we should be winning more. We went though a couple coaches one should have never been there and the other try to alienate the former players. The coach we have now is a good young coach we just have to get out of the mindset of oh crap here we go again and think We are going to pull this out. I thought last year we were over that after beating 2 top 25 teams in a row but then we turn around and get blow out at TTU

That "here we go again" mindset was probably the biggest hurdle we had. Our rosters size, strength, speed etc hasnt changed much. The mentality is night vs day different though. CSUs late 90s early 00s teams had that hump to get over. Where we'd be toe to toe with a great team, then 1 turnover would cripple us into playing tight and waiting for things to inevitably fall apart. Once the program worked past that culture...things kept improving. Its so cliche but its that old coach line "learning to win". How to have a bad moment and instantly forget it and BELIEVE you're still gonna win that game.

[kdinva]

That "here we go again" mindset was probably the biggest hurdle we had. Our rosters size, strength, speed etc hasnt changed much. The mentality is night vs day different though. ....Its so cliche but its that old coach line "learning to win". How to have a bad moment and instantly forget it and BELIEVE you're still gonna win that game.

Coach Wach is trying that same approach in Lexington.....but the Catawba disaster proves still a ways to go.....VMI should have won by 17.....

[Go Green]

Bucknell doesn't care about football and GTown seemingly doesn't have the resources or the where with all to care about football....the PL in football moving forward will be between Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham, Colgate and Holy Cross.

Lafayette sure hasn't been playing like they want to be part of the PL moving forward in recent years...

[Bucs2016]

Coach Wach is trying that same approach in Lexington.....but the Catawba disaster proves still a ways to go.....VMI should have won by 17.....

Hang in there. We went 1-11 in 2003 w a new coach trying to change culture. 2005 we won the conference. In 2011 we went 0-11 and lost to a D3 team bc that 2003 coach had just lost his edge. New coach in 2013 instantly changed things. In 24 months we went from being embarrassed at home by a D3 team to winning @ App State and Coastal.

Ive always thought VMI can have the same SoCon success Citadel is having. Just need to get the right coach in there. Need some sort of option offense though. Military schools all succeed with that due to the problem of not having 340 pound offensive linemen for obvious reasons.

How national is VMIs recruiting base? VA is a great state for HS talent but unfortunately for VMI there are some strong FCS programs in VA to compete with.

[kdinva]

Ive always thought VMI can have the same SoCon success Citadel is having. Just need to get the right coach in there. Need some sort of option offense though. Military schools all succeed ......How national is VMIs recruiting base? VA is a great state for HS talent but unfortunately for VMI there are some strong FCS programs in VA to compete with.

VMI has some players from Penn, Florida, Georgia, Tenn., a couple from Texas, NY, NC, Md.........but about 65% from Va.......VMI's out of state tuition costs are very high ($40K), so the K-Club has to watch the spending.....

[Bucs2016]

VMI has some players from Penn, Florida, Georgia, Tenn., a couple from Texas, NY, NC, Md.........but about 65% from Va.......VMI's out of state tuition costs are very high ($40K), so the K-Club has to watch the spending.....

Ive always thought if VMI landed a great triple option coach, maybe a Paul Johnson tree guy, they'd break through. We played VMI, Wofford, Citadel and Coastal obviously and the athletes werent much different except for the couple of future NFL guys here and there. Especially Wofford. VMI, Presbyterian and Wofford had almost identical athlete types. Big difference is Wofford is just a machine. Their option attack and program's culture and consistency just fuels winning. VMI doesnt have anything preventing them from being that other than just hitting the coach jackpot. But that said...there arent many Mike Ayers or Mike Houston types out there.

I wont be shocked if some year VMI becomes a program that is in the top 5 of the SoCon.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I really would like to see VMI become great again. Jimmy Leech deserves it.

[Model Citizen]

Unsure if Georgetown has been mentioned in this thread yet, but they will forever being swimming upstream being the only school in the PL not to offer scholarships.

They offer scholarships. Just not very many of them...

[Model Citizen]

For the longest time, our grads pretty much stayed in southwest Missouri, and the Ozarks are so rural that I don't think there were any group of grads outside Springfield large enough for an alumni chapter system to take root.

You've probably seen the story suggesting that MSU is getting more in-state students than MU Columbia (based on a segment of ACT takers). Are there enough pissed off white people to eventually make MSU a larger school than Mizzou? I think MSU's current enrollment is about 6,000 less...

Maybe improving, not dropping, the football team is the answer.