Patriot League and Redshirting

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I'd like to see it potentially happen if done correctly. Lehigh head coach Andy Coen seems in favor of it. One of my major gripes about playing FBS games is the fact they have more scholarships AND redshirt. At least this would level the playing field in those games. Come playoff time I don't think it matters.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/lehigh/index.ssf/2017/07/time_for_patriot_league_to_all.html

[DFW HOYA]

I'd like to see it potentially happen if done correctly. Lehigh head coach Andy Coen seems in favor of it. One of my major gripes about playing FBS games is the fact they have more scholarships AND redshirt. At least this would level the playing field in those games. Come playoff time I don't think it matters.

If Fordham gets behind it, the league will all eventually follow like it did before. (Well, Georgetown won't, of course, but that won't stop the process.)

After that, it's time to rethink the AI.

[RichH2]

The ADs and HCs have been pushing for altering PL caps and redshirting. PL did move a bit by allowing 3 TWOs to be in roster yet not count vs the caps. The schollie and roster caps were passed to alleviate the financial issues that a few schools had. We are now in our 5th year and all are at or very near the schollie caps and all have had sufficient time to remedy their financial and Title IX issues. Other than academic inertia there is little reason not to allow the full 63.
Redshirting , while also a financial issue for some, is primarily a philosophical holdover from our Ivy Lite era. A number of Presidents wanted to keep a semblance of Ivy philosophy . Never really understood that as Ivies use grey shirting to skirt the redshirt limits. That said that likely will be the most difficult to modify. As much as ADs and HCs want an 8th football member, PL will not be a destination for any if the teams we want to join.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I would assume Lehigh would redshirt in football. Just look to the way they handle their wrestling program--
(Quoting Bison137 from elsewhere)
--"A more important difference ... is the fact that Lehigh redshirts virtually every wrestler. Of 33 non-freshmen on their roster, 31 took redshirt years".
Bucknell has historically avoided non-medical redshirts, even in non-PL sports, like wrestling and water polo.

[RichH2]

Yup. Virtually all recruits are redshirted. Some perspective Cornell does the same by greyshirting their frosh at a local Community College.
W&M is the most extreme example of CAA redshirting but most do redshirt to varying degress.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yup. Virtually all recruits are redshirted. Some perspective Cornell does the same by greyshirting their frosh at a local Community College.
W&M is the most extreme example of CAA redshirting but most do redshirt to varying degress.


I love Cornell...lol :D

[KPSUL]

Redshirting can be a very effective tool in player development. Unlike P5 schools who are bringing in loads of 3 and 4 star recruits, the bulk of the guys we get at the FCS level have the potential be solid college players but still need additional time to build size, strength or game savvy and technique against better competition than they faced in HS. It also gives the coaches ability to spread the talent among graduation dates to balance ok and great recruiting years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Brad Wilson literally took half a quote from Andy and spun it into a full-blown editorial about redshirting. I think to have the conversation is a good thing and a good idea, but to spin this as something that Andy is spearheading is pretty ridiculous IMO.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Brad Wilson literally took half a quote from Andy and spun it into a full-blown editorial about redshirting. I think to have the conversation is a good thing and a good idea, but to spin this as something that Andy is spearheading is pretty ridiculous IMO.

Did Coen say this?

"First, add an eighth team. Second, improve the non-conference schedules. Third, add more scholarships, 63 from 60, Coen suggested."

It's hard to tell without any direct quotes. But the article certainly implies he did since the write put "suggest". But that could mean Coen simply said something and the writer interpreted in the above manner and ran with it. Obviously, those are some pretty big ideas if it's true. Lehigh was arguably wanted scholarships just as bad as Fordham but didn't want to ruffle any feathers. So I get the progressive thinking.

I wish he said "add lights at Goodman"....xdrunkyx

[RichH2]

PL football has 4 millstones.
Roster cap
Schollie cap
AI ( The Fordham Rule )
Redshirting
D8oes seem as Rams have adjusted well to the AI :). May be time to go back to our original setup.
The rest I think will slowly change with redshirting perhaps last. The only real way to hasten process is for PL to be forced to ie a chance at Nova et al

[van]

PL football has 4 millstones.
Roster cap
Schollie cap
AI ( The Fordham Rule )
Redshirting
D8oes seem as Rams have adjusted well to the AI :). May be time to go back to our original setup.
The rest I think will slowly change with redshirting perhaps last. The only real way to hasten process is for PL to be forced to ie a chance at Nova et al

personally, I don't see the AI as that big a deal, there are plenty of talented guys out there that can handle the academics, makes recruiting a little tougher for coaches I suspect

roster cap seems dumb to me, if a guy wants to play football, gets accepted at the school as a student, and pays his way, who cares if he is number 80 or 90 on the roster, just look at the size of a lacrosse team

as to schollie cap, and extra one or two quality guys in each class would certainly help, but given the divergence in budgets it would put some schools at an additional disadvantage

redshirting a tough issue, who can afford to have 20 guys on the roster who don't play, even with 63 equivalents

[RichH2]

The startup for routine redshirting does hit roster numbers. Of course not many will redshirt entire classes. I can see redshirting some kids to develop.
My thought is that the PL could compromise by allowing teams to redshirt a set number each year . Say 5 per year not including medical redshirts.

[CFBfan]

Did Coen say this?

"First, add an eighth team. Second, improve the non-conference schedules. Third, add more scholarships, 63 from 60, Coen suggested."

It's hard to tell without any direct quotes. But the article certainly implies he did since the write put "suggest". But that could mean Coen simply said something and the writer interpreted in the above manner and ran with it. Obviously, those are some pretty big ideas if it's true. Lehigh was arguably wanted scholarships just as bad as Fordham but didn't want to ruffle any feathers. So I get the progressive thinking.

I wish he said "add lights at Goodman"....xdrunkyx

improve non conf! c'mon coen ducks good ooc opponents every year!

[RichH2]

improve non conf! c'mon coen ducks good ooc opponents every year!

Not really cfb. Sterrett and Coen dont want body bag games nor to travel out West or a game. I would like more variety in our OOC with occasional FBS games vs NE teams. When we first went schollies Joe scheduled PSU and almost had Cuse. When Franklin came in.we were dropped. Not clear what future holds as AD will not reveal future schedules until the late Spring each year.

[van]

typical OOC is 2 or 3 ivies, 1 CAA, 1 or 2 NEC/Monmouth, a regional schedule, as Rich noted adverse to travel games, not ducking anyone in the northeast

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

typical OOC is 2 or 3 ivies, 1 CAA, 1 or 2 NEC/Monmouth, a regional schedule, as Rich noted adverse to travel games, not ducking anyone in the northeast

Absolutely! Lehigh doesn't schedule poorly on average. It's just extremely "boring"/repetitive. I'm not sure who has the fewest miles logged in FCS but if there is a list Lehigh has to be pretty high on it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Absolutely! Lehigh doesn't schedule poorly on average. It's just extremely "boring"/repetitive. I'm not sure who has the fewest miles logged in FCS but if there is a list Lehigh has to be pretty high on it.

I am not 100% certain about this, but I think the last time Lehigh got on a plane to play a football game was two years ago vs. JMU. And before that I think it was Liberty.

[Go...gate]

Not really cfb. Sterrett and Coen dont want body bag games nor to travel out West or a game. I would like more variety in our OOC with occasional FBS games vs NE teams. When we first went schollies Joe scheduled PSU and almost had Cuse. When Franklin came in.we were dropped. Not clear what future holds as AD will not reveal future schedules until the late Spring each year.

Is there a particular reason why future schedules are withheld like that?

[RichH2]

Is there a particular reason why future schedules are withheld like that?

Perhaps but I dont know what it is. Joe has said the difficulty of scheduling 5 OOC games is daunting particularly in his concept of keeping sched local to NE. Limited number of FBS and lots of FCS trying for one. That said it was the usual practice to print the scheds for the next 3 yrs with open slots TBD. A number of yrs ago, perhaps when we stopped publishing a media guide, Joe stopped revealing future scheds. He also tries to only schedule H and H series not one offs.

[chattownmocs]

I had no idea.... I'm not sure you can compete for a national title at this level without redshirts. Seems like a no-brainer.

[CFBfan]

Not really cfb. Sterrett and Coen dont want body bag games nor to travel out West or a game. I would like more variety in our OOC with occasional FBS games vs NE teams. When we first went schollies Joe scheduled PSU and almost had Cuse. When Franklin came in.we were dropped. Not clear what future holds as AD will not reveal future schedules until the late Spring each year.

Cmon....gate has played FBS for years and never suffers injuries because they played up.....Coen is just a coward when it comes to that

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Cmon....gate has played FBS for years and never suffers injuries because they played up.....Coen is just a coward when it comes to that

Fordham suffered several injuries against Navy last year. Lehigh will get their ass kicking next season against the Midshipmen. You'll be thrilled when it happens. Colgate has simply proven to this point they can't compete with FBS teams. There's no glory in getting run off the field either....

It takes far more guts to play top level FCS teams than it does against FBS competition.....

[CFBfan]

Fordham suffered several injuries against Navy last year. Lehigh will get their ass kicking next season against the Midshipmen. You'll be thrilled when it happens. Colgate has simply proven to this point they can't compete with FBS teams. There's no glory in getting run off the field either....

It takes far more guts to play top level FCS teams than it does against FBS competition.....

And since he's been there how many of those has Coen play....playoffs not included

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

And since he's been there how many of those has Coen play....playoffs not included

Villanova was the defending national champs in 2010 and ranked #1 in the country when Lehigh played them. They played them the year before when they won the national title. 'Nova was Top 25 in 2016 and will be in the Top 15 at least this year. UNH was preseason Top 10 and finished ranked #1 in 2014 when Lehigh played them. Ranked in the Top 25 in 2010, 2011 an 2013 when they met Lehigh. Obviously the Wildcats made the playoffs each of those years. JMU was a playoff team in 2014 and spent time at #1 in 2015. Liberty was in the Top 25 in 2011 and might have been in 2012.

Those are all HIGH level OOC games. It's the fact that it's the same 3 teams that make people brush it off imo. Wofford, YSU, William & Mary, Richmond, Illinois State, Chattanooga, The Citadel etc would be other opponents that would be a nice change of pace and don't require a space shuttle to get to....

[RichH2]

And since he's been there how many of those has Coen play....playoffs not included

Nope. LU works to make the playoffs every year. In season Joe has scheduled a few but too few for my taste. Coen has said that traveling out West for a game makes little sense to him as most of our recruiting is in the NE. We recruit against most of the OOC opponents. A W vs them has more impact with the players we recruit in Pa and NJ.

[Gate83]

Cmon....gate has played FBS for years and never suffers injuries because they played up.....Coen is just a coward when it comes to that

Actually we had significant injuries in our most recent service academy games. QB McCarney tore his groin in the Air Force game his senior year and although he played through it, was never the same. Our two top defenders, Steffen & Bridgeforth, had season ending injuries vs Navy, leading to their medical redshirts. Came out pretty clean vs. 'Cuse last year. I wouldn't necessarily blame those injuries on FBS vs. FCS, but they did happen in those games.

[CFBfan]

Actually we had significant injuries in our most recent service academy games. QB McCarney tore his groin in the Air Force game his senior year and although he played through it, was never the same. Our two top defenders, Steffen & Bridgeforth, had season ending injuries vs Navy, leading to their medical redshirts. Came out pretty clean vs. 'Cuse last year. I wouldn't necessarily blame those injuries on FBS vs. FCS, but they did happen in those games.

Those injuries were not because navy was so much bigger "body bag" issues that lu fans harp on

The PL plays more OOC games than confirm games every year. LU has played quality OOC FCS opponents less than a handful of times and that's just reality
LU fans keep crying about no respect....well improve your schedule!

[RichH2]

Those injuries were not because navy was so much bigger "body bag" issues that lu fans harp on

The PL plays more OOC games than confirm games every year. LU has played quality OOC FCS opponents less than a handful of times and that's just reality
LU fans keep crying about no respect....well improve your schedule!

Cant disagree as to entire PL OOC. Also agree with owl that main issue for fans is that Lehigh OOC is too locked in at present to the same teams. We will always play at least 2 Ivy games vs the top teams there. All are long standing rivalries. Likewise 1 or 2 vs CAA as theyour main recruiting rivals. The other 2 have gone to Monmouth and an NEC squad. This is where we can add an occasional FBS game and a southern series with a Socon or Big South squad. Time will tell how Sterrett and Andy plan future scheduling.

[LUHawker]

Cant disagree as to entire PL OOC. Also agree with owl that main issue for fans is that Lehigh OOC is too locked in at present to the same teams. We will always play at least 2 Ivy games vs the top teams there. All are long standing rivalries. Likewise 1 or 2 vs CAA as theyour main recruiting rivals. The other 2 have gone to Monmouth and an NEC squad. This is where we can add an occasional FBS game and a southern series with a Socon or Big South squad. Time will tell how Sterrett and Andy plan future scheduling.

I agree with TU Owl and RichH's take as well, but also don't entirely disagree with CFBFan. FBS games would be nice, but not necessary. I also understand not wanting to travel too far. However, I think Lehigh could solve many of the real and perceived scheduling problems by getting a healthy rotation of close-in southern schools like W&M, Richmond, Hampton, JMU, VMI and throw in the occasional YSU or deep south teams like Wofford, Furman or Citadel. Would love to play the Cit just to shut Citdog up. :D

[RichH2]

I agree with TU Owl and RichH's take as well, but also don't entirely disagree with CFBFan. FBS games would be nice, but not necessary. I also understand not wanting to travel too far. However, I think Lehigh could solve many of the real and perceived scheduling problems by getting a healthy rotation of close-in southern schools like W&M, Richmond, Hampton, JMU, VMI and throw in the occasional YSU or deep south teams like Wofford, Furman or Citadel. Would love to play the Cit just to shut Citdog up. :D

That would be ideal IMO. We've had good series withWofford, JMU,Liberty. There are option other than Monmouth and a NEC game every year. One truth for us nationally is that to regain the respect we had under Higgins we have to broaden our scheduling and not rely soley on playoff games.
I too would love a H and H vs Citadel if only to shut citdog up :) :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You know which FCS school I'd like to schedule home-and-home? Mercer. Lehigh gets a fair number of kids from Georgia and the Bears are an up-and-coming school in the world of FCS football.

Maybe flying out to North Dakota State or Montana might not help recruiting (though we do have one player from Montana), but certainly that excuse doesn't fly for the South. Lehigh and other PL schools mine Florida and Georgia just like many other FCS schools.

[LUHawker]

You know which FCS school I'd like to schedule home-and-home? Mercer. Lehigh gets a fair number of kids from Georgia and the Bears are an up-and-coming school in the world of FCS football.

Maybe flying out to North Dakota State or Montana might not help recruiting (though we do have one player from Montana), but certainly that excuse doesn't fly for the South. Lehigh and other PL schools mine Florida and Georgia just like many other FCS schools.


I'd love to see Lehigh go to Montana - I'd even be ok with it in December ;)

[RichH2]

Good point. LU recruits Fla Ga and the Carolinas. There are suitable opportunities to broaden our OOC. Mercer may not yet be a top tier program but I would like to see them and Elon occasionally rather than a constant diet of NEC games. To be clear top NEC squads are no longer cupcakes. Unlike the PL they can give both schollie and need aid up to NCAA max. So games vs top teams can be competitive. Just dont think we benefit overmuch by scheduling them every year.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Good point. LU recruits Fla Ga and the Carolinas. There are suitable opportunities to broaden our OOC. Mercer may not yet be a top tier program but I would like to see them and Elon occasionally rather than a constant diet of NEC games. To be clear top NEC squads are no longer cupcakes. Unlike the PL they can give both schollie and need aid up to NCAA max. So games vs top teams can be competitive. Just dont think we benefit overmuch by scheduling them every year.

Mercer and Kennesaw State would be worthy OOC opponents. FBS games against ECU, Duke, UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest, Indiana, Purdue, NC State, Old Dominion wouldn't be horrible either. There's a ton of great options if you're willing go out 1,000 miles. I think that's a reasonable compromise distance wise. Especially with how easy modern travel is.

There's nothing wrong with playing NEC teams most years. If you want to play "up" then allow others the chance to as well. Plus, you might run into one of them in the playoffs. I just wish they added Duquesne as a NEC opponent. St. Francis, Bryant and Sacred Heart have also had good teams recently. Wagner is "different" but they've struggled since wining the conference 5 years ago.

[RichH2]

Both Duquesne and St.Francis would be competitive and make more sense than Wagner or New England teams. Even so we dont need them every year. IMO every 4 yr schedule arc should have room for 2 FBS and 2 H and H series with an out of NE team. Leaves ample room for the Ivies CAA and NEC. The frustrating part is we will only know if other schools have us on their future schedules.smh

[DFW HOYA]

If the Ivies ever bailed on scheduling Georgetown, Sgarlata and the Hoyas would have almost no options, because neither the NEC nor CAA are going to sign home and away deals to play the perpetually soon-to-be-constructed Cooper Field. Short of becoming a barnstorming team, it's Davidson, Marist, and two or three PSAC teams at that point.

[van]

You know which FCS school I'd like to schedule home-and-home? Mercer. Lehigh gets a fair number of kids from Georgia and the Bears are an up-and-coming school in the world of FCS football.

Maybe flying out to North Dakota State or Montana might not help recruiting (though we do have one player from Montana), but certainly that excuse doesn't fly for the South. Lehigh and other PL schools mine Florida and Georgia just like many other FCS schools.

a socon team instead of a NEC might be a good substitution to boost strength of schedule and still stay in recruiting footprint, how difficult is it to get an FBS game? I have heard that Joe has tried to get a game but so far Navy is all I have heard of

[RichH2]

a socon team instead of a NEC might be a good substitution to boost strength of schedule and still stay in recruiting footprint, how difficult is it to get an FBS game? I have heard that Joe has tried to get a game but so far Navy is all I have heard of

So far the only one. I check Future Schedules periodically to see if we show up anywhere. Nada.
A lot went on after our 1st schollie class. PSU scheduled, Franklin came in and dropped. Talks with Cuse but they went with Gate. I hope they are still trying but I've heard nothing. Slim pickins left on the NE thru 19-20.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

a socon team instead of a NEC might be a good substitution to boost strength of schedule and still stay in recruiting footprint, how difficult is it to get an FBS game? I have heard that Joe has tried to get a game but so far Navy is all I have heard of

With the Big 10 FCS game "ban" it limits options. If Joe is looking at bus games it's a pretty limited cast of characters: Army, Temple, BC, Syracuse, UConn, perhaps Pitt. Going down a rung there's UMass and Buffalo. but there are a logjam of schools already in line for those games. Lehigh was very slow in reaching out to get these games in the first place, so now it's harder. If you look at these FBS teams' schedules you get an idea on exactly how crowded. I think the earliest we could think about any opening for these schools is 2020.

When you get outside the northeast, Georgia Tech seems to have openings for FCS games in 2018 and 2020, so perhaps that's a possibility. Air Force has openings in 2019 and 2020. ODU has an opening for 2020. Ironically Liberty, now an FBS school, might be a good target because they will need home games desperately.

Other Lehigh fans will be happy to note LSU is booked through 2021 with FCS schools. :)

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I don't think you're going to shut citdog up, in any case.

[RichH2]

I don't think you're going to shut citdog up, in any case.

Naah. Nothing will get that done. But, he is fun to play with. :)

[Neighbor2]

Honestly, I'm tired of Lehigh's excuses. As far as I'm concerned, if you choose to play FCS, do it with ALL the same ammunition your opponents bring to the battlefield. When you don't do that, it's easy for fans to drift away. Can only take so many moral victories and haughty justifications. Play the da*n game on an equal footing, or find another game to play.

[TheValleyRaider]

Once again, PL fans prove we're the best threadjackers on the board by hijacking our own thread

You guys are just the best :)

Also, on the original point, I can see the concerns about having students hang around for 5 years when the school's program is designed to be finished in 4 (like Colgate). I know why it would help teams, but I wonder if that is a bridge too far when it comes to making accommodations for athletes.

For the record, I would be in favor of modifying and/or dropping the AI, which I think could still be done and still have the schools maintain their own academic standards, as a way to adjust league rules to improve national competitiveness.

[RichH2]

The problem now with dropping the AI is no longer Fordham in football. It is Loyola and Boston U. in all the other sports. A distinct imbalance exists that actually may have some issues for those sports.

[PAllen]

With the Big 10 FCS game "ban" it limits options. If Joe is looking at bus games it's a pretty limited cast of characters: Army, Temple, BC, Syracuse, UConn, perhaps Pitt. Going down a rung there's UMass and Buffalo. but there are a logjam of schools already in line for those games. Lehigh was very slow in reaching out to get these games in the first place, so now it's harder. If you look at these FBS teams' schedules you get an idea on exactly how crowded. I think the earliest we could think about any opening for these schools is 2020.

When you get outside the northeast, Georgia Tech seems to have openings for FCS games in 2018 and 2020, so perhaps that's a possibility. Air Force has openings in 2019 and 2020. ODU has an opening for 2020. Ironically Liberty, now an FBS school, might be a good target because they will need home games desperately.

Other Lehigh fans will be happy to note LSU is booked through 2021 with FCS schools. :)

Get it done!

[Sader87]

BU has harder admissions standards than some of the PL schools now...including Holy Cross

[Go...gate]

Perhaps but I dont know what it is. Joe has said the difficulty of scheduling 5 OOC games is daunting particularly in his concept of keeping sched local to NE. Limited number of FBS and lots of FCS trying for one. That said it was the usual practice to print the scheds for the next 3 yrs with open slots TBD. A number of yrs ago, perhaps when we stopped publishing a media guide, Joe stopped revealing future scheds. He also tries to only schedule H and H series not one offs.

Dave Roach took a hard line on this at Colgate and our football schedules went downhill during his tenure.

[Go...gate]

The problem now with dropping the AI is no longer Fordham in football. It is Loyola and Boston U. in all the other sports. A distinct imbalance exists that actually may have some issues for those sports.

Agree as to Loyola, who should never have been admitted. Disagree as to Boston University, however. Very strong school.

[Go...gate]

Actually we had significant injuries in our most recent service academy games. QB McCarney tore his groin in the Air Force game his senior year and although he played through it, was never the same. Our two top defenders, Steffen & Bridgeforth, had season ending injuries vs Navy, leading to their medical redshirts. Came out pretty clean vs. 'Cuse last year. I wouldn't necessarily blame those injuries on FBS vs. FCS, but they did happen in those games.

They could just as easily have happened against anyone else on the schedule. In nearly sixty years of watching Colgate football, I have (sadly) seen serious injuries suffered against some awfully weak clubs, too.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Say WHAT? It takes far more guts to play teams below the highest level of competition than teams at the highest level of competition?

Yes! Colgate has nothing to lose when they play FBS teams. They're expected to lose 90+% of those games because they're in a lesser subdivision. Getting run off the field by 50 against Navy does not have the same meaning as getting run off the field by 50 to Jacksonville State or NDSU.

[Go...gate]

Yes! Colgate has nothing to lose when they play FBS teams. They're expected to lose 90+% of those games because they're in a lesser subdivision. Getting run off the field by 50 against Navy does not have the same meaning as getting run off the field by 50 to Jacksonville State or NDSU.

I actually had deleted my post on this subject in the interest of keeping peace in the family. Let's just agree to disagree.

[CFBfan]

Yes! Colgate has nothing to lose when they play FBS teams. They're expected to lose 90+% of those games because they're in a lesser subdivision. Getting run off the field by 50 against Navy does not have the same meaning as getting run off the field by 50 to Jacksonville State or NDSU.

and lehigh should continue to expect no respect as they litter their ooc with cupcakes and weak programs

[Lehigh'98]

and lehigh should continue to expect no respect as they litter their ooc with cupcakes and weak programs

Unfortunately, this year there is some truth in that. Week 1 vs Nova is the only game that can get us on the radar. Even if we win, by the end of the year things will have changed dramatically by playoff time and the team might be getting a big head if they run through the league like last year (not saying they will because Colgate and Fordham are away games)

[ngineer]

I had no idea.... I'm not sure you can compete for a national title at this level without redshirts. Seems like a no-brainer.

It is more difficult. Young men can grow immensely with the extra year and not just in size. Maturity and speed as well. Too many 18-19 year olds going against 22-23 year olds. Some kids are also held back in junior high school if they those kinds of parents.