Big South football

[Sir William]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to Big South football over the next few seasons. While they've added Kennesaw State, Campbell and North Alabama, they've lost Coastal and Liberty, and Chuck South lost the only successful coach in its history, along with several significant assistants.

Predictions:
1) Chuck South returns to its losing ways.

2) Kennesaw and UNA become the perennial conference championship contenders.

3) Monmouth leaves in few years when invited to the NEC.

4) Jacksonville follows Campbell's lead and joins conference for football in couple of years.

5) West Georgia follows UNA's lead and transitions to D1/FCS and joins conference for football in couple of years.

6) Campbell begins seeking SoCon membership within 5-6 years. (Not saying they necessarily get invited.)

What else?

[FUBeAR]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to Big South football over the next few seasons. While they've added Kennesaw State, Campbell and North Alabama, they've lost Coastal and Liberty and they've also lost the only successful coach in Chuck South history.

Predictions:
1) Chuck South returns to their losing ways.

2) Kennesaw and UNA become the perennial conference championship contenders.

3) Monmouth leaves in few years when invited to the NEC.

4) Jacksonville follows Campbell's lead and joins conference for football in couple of years.

5) West Georgia follows UNA's lead and transitions to D1/FCS and joins conference for football in couple of years.

6) Campbell begins seeking SoCon membership within 5-6 years. (Not saying they necessarily get invited.)

What else?

No idea about #1 - They obviously lost most of their Coaching Staff + the Headman. Not sure about #6 - I don't know that Campbell will be any more or less interested in joining the SoCon than any of the other Big South schools. I'm SoCon-Centric (so, therefore, biased) so I would think all of the current and future Big South Members, with the exception of Monmouth, would prefer to be in the SoCon over the Big South. Maybe not.

I think 2-5 are spot on...except I don't know that Monmouth goes NEC. Didn't they leave the NEC? Not sure...anyway, I could just as well see them in the Patriot or the CAA, but all those schools/conferences north of NC just run together for me (sorry for sounding a tad like Citdog, but I'm being honest...about my (chosen) ignorance). Hey, maybe Monmouth will join the Ivies (just kidding).

[DFW HOYA]

Watch for Jacksonville.

[UNAPride]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to Big South football over the next few seasons. While they've added Kennesaw State, Campbell and North Alabama, they've lost Coastal and Liberty, and Chuck South lost the only successful coach in its history, along with several significant assistants.

Predictions:
1) Chuck South returns to its losing ways.

2) Kennesaw and UNA become the perennial conference championship contenders.

3) Monmouth leaves in few years when invited to the NEC.

4) Jacksonville follows Campbell's lead and joins conference for football in couple of years.

5) West Georgia follows UNA's lead and transitions to D1/FCS and joins conference for football in couple of years.

6) Campbell begins seeking SoCon membership within 5-6 years. (Not saying they necessarily get invited.)

What else?


I'm not so sure on this one. They seem pretty firm in their decision not to fund football scholarships. This was the major reason Kerwin Bell quit last year and went to Valdosta State.

[SENOREIDA]

RIP Big South. It wasn't good knowing ya.

[Franks Tanks]

No idea about #1 - They obviously lost most of their Coaching Staff + the Headman. Not sure about #6 - I don't know that Campbell will be any more or less interested in joining the SoCon than any of the other Big South schools. I'm SoCon-Centric (so, therefore, biased) so I would think all of the current and future Big South Members, with the exception of Monmouth, would prefer to be in the SoCon over the Big South. Maybe not.

I think 2-5 are spot on...except I don't know that Monmouth goes NEC. Didn't they leave the NEC? Not sure...anyway, I could just as well see them in the Patriot or the CAA, but all those schools/conferences north of NC just run together for me (sorry for sounding a tad like Citdog, but I'm being honest...about my (chosen) ignorance). Hey, maybe Monmouth will join the Ivies (just kidding).

Monmouth is not joining the Patriot League, unless something happens to Georgetown and the league is forced to add another member.

[NorthChuckSouth]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to Big South football over the next few seasons. While they've added Kennesaw State, Campbell and North Alabama, they've lost Coastal and Liberty, and Chuck South lost the only successful coach in its history, along with several significant assistants.

Predictions:
1) Chuck South returns to its losing ways.

2) Kennesaw and UNA become the perennial conference championship contenders.

3) Monmouth leaves in few years when invited to the NEC.

4) Jacksonville follows Campbell's lead and joins conference for football in couple of years.

5) West Georgia follows UNA's lead and transitions to D1/FCS and joins conference for football in couple of years.

6) Campbell begins seeking SoCon membership within 5-6 years. (Not saying they necessarily get invited.)

What else?

Still got the same players. I don't expect anything less than a 3-peat.

[Catamount87]

On the Campbell idea, there's that supposed SoCon balance between public and private schools issue that would possibly come into play. Then there's the SoCon footprint. Would the SoCon want to add another NC school, especially one located in a media market that ignores them?

Of course the idea not presented would be the Big South merging with another conference like the SoCon. Given that 1) apparently the SoCon didn't want Kennesaw St because of an apparent desire to only use FCS as a stepping stone, 2) the loss of CCU and soon Liberty, 3) relative weakness in the remaining football programs at Presbyterian, G-W and Monmouth and 4) Monmouth being a footprint outlier, a SoCon/Big South merger seems a bit unlikely.

[PaladinFan]

On the Campbell idea, there's that supposed SoCon balance between public and private schools issue that would possibly come into play. Then there's the SoCon footprint. Would the SoCon want to add another NC school, especially one located in a media market that ignores them?

Of course the idea not presented would be the Big South merging with another conference like the SoCon. Given that 1) apparently the SoCon didn't want Kennesaw St because of an apparent desire to only use FCS as a stepping stone, 2) the loss of CCU and soon Liberty, 3) relative weakness in the remaining football programs at Presbyterian, G-W and Monmouth and 4) Monmouth being a footprint outlier, a SoCon/Big South merger seems a bit unlikely.

I could see the SoCon having a lot of interest in Kennesaw State. Metro Atlanta is home to a lot of SoCon member alumni. If KSU is interested in staying with FCS football, they'd be a good one to target.

With 9 member football schools, you could potentially push that number to 12. Just because I like making things up:

SoCon West

Samford
UTC
Jacksonville State
Kennesaw State
Mercer
ETSU

SoCon East

Furman
Wofford
the Citadel
VMI
Western Carolina
Campbell/PC/GWU

Play everyone in your division, and a few cross over games a year.

[DFW HOYA]

Monmouth is not joining the Patriot League, unless something happens to Georgetown and the league is forced to add another member.

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget and an Ivy League admissions policy, either of which are incongruous with today's high-budget PL. Maybe the NEC would be interested in bringing them on, the Ivy less so.

I really don't see Monmouth as interested in the PL. As Rev. John Brooks famously said, "We have set a course for others to follow. So far, no one has followed."

[Franks Tanks]

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget and an Ivy League admissions policy, either of which are incongruous with today's high-budget PL. Maybe the NEC would be interested in bringing them on, the Ivy less so.

I really don't see Monmouth as interested in the PL. As Rev. John Brooks famously said, "We have set a course for others to follow. So far, no one has followed."

There would need to be a bit of desperation and compromise on both sides. Monmouth wound desperately need a league (if the Big South implodes) and the Patriot League wound desperately need a new member. Similar to the situation that brought Towson in as a member years ago.

[aceinthehole]

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget and an Ivy League admissions policy, either of which are incongruous with today's high-budget PL. Maybe the NEC would be interested in bringing them on, the Ivy less so.

I really don't see Monmouth as interested in the PL. As Rev. John Brooks famously said, "We have set a course for others to follow. So far, no one has followed."

I can't speak with any authority on the matter, but I feel very comfortable saying that the NEC office would consider it a huge coup to add Georgetown to the NEC in football. I honestly can't think of any downside for the NEC members to extend a football membership invite to Georgetown, however I doubt the interest is mutual from the Hoyas perspective.

Monmouth presents a different set of issue for the NEC (mostly because of their departure from the league), but why wouldn't MU want to join the Patriot League?

[Anthony215]

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget and an Ivy League admissions policy, either of which are incongruous with today's high-budget PL. Maybe the NEC would be interested in bringing them on, the Ivy less so.

I really don't see Monmouth as interested in the PL. As Rev. John Brooks famously said, "We have set a course for others to follow. So far, no one has followed."

I agree fully that the Patriot League has to put its foot down on Georgetown with either upgrading their scholarships/competitiveness and facilities or boot them out. All of Georgetown other sports are in the Big East so the PL wouldn't be losing anything and it would help their other members SOS by not having a dead weight opponent yearly on the schedule. If they don't successfully land Monmouth why not go after Marist if they are willing to up their scholarship money. Facilities wise they could upgrade their stadium a bit. But they have a good endowment so alumni opening their pockets shouldn't be a big problem

[DFW HOYA]

I can't speak with any authority on the matter, but I feel very comfortable saying that the NEC office would consider it a huge coup to add Georgetown to the NEC in football. I honestly can't think of any downside for the NEC members to extend a football membership invite to Georgetown, however I doubt the interest is mutual from the Hoyas perspective.

Monmouth presents a different set of issue for the NEC (mostly because of their departure from the league), but why wouldn't MU want to join the Patriot League?

From 1887 to 1999, Georgetown never had more than three consecutive losing seasons. Since 2000, 15 losing seasons in 16 years with the PL and most haven't been close. (At some point, historical researchers will consider the 2011 standings to be some sort of typo.) How many consecutive losing seasons await them now--five, 10, 20?

The NEC may not be the best landing--independent status may be just as palatable--but it's worth some dialogue. The PL's use of 60 scholarships AND the Ivy Index chokes off any meaningful recruiting Georgetown can do to compete without grants. Sgarlata can attract the kids in Florida and Texas that wouldn't know Bucknell from Bushwood, but if these same recruits need a 1350 or a 1400 out of 1600 to get in per the league's Harvardian rules, they'll go elsewhere and probably get a free ride to do so.

The NEC has no such artificial firewall on SAT scores, but there's no star power among the member schools, either.


I agree fully that the Patriot League has to put its foot down on Georgetown with either upgrading their scholarships/competitiveness and facilities or boot them out. All of Georgetown other sports are in the Big East so the PL wouldn't be losing anything and it would help their other members SOS by not having a dead weight opponent yearly on the schedule.

Georgetown's membership is renewed by the PL every three years. If it's no longer welcome, someone will say so.

[Anthony215]

From 1887 to 1999, Gerogeown never had more than three consecutive losing seasons. Since 2000, 15 losing seasons in 16 years with the PL and most haven't been close. (At some point, historical researchers will consider the 2011 standings to be some sort of typo.) How many consecutive losing seasons await them now--five, 10, 20?

The NEC may not be the best landing--independent status may be just as palatable--but it's worth some dialogue. The PL's use of 60 scholarships AND the Ivy Index chokes off any meaningful recruiting Georgetown can do to compete without grants. Sgarlata can attract the kids in Florida and Texas that wouldn't know Bucknell from Bushwood, but if these same recruits need a 1350 or a 1400 out of 1600 to get in per the league's Harvardian rules, they'll go elsewhere and probably get a free ride to do so.

The NEC has no such artificial firewall on SAT scores, but there's no star power among the member schools, either.

If the administration wanted to find a way for Georgetown to be competitive in the PL or competitive period they'd find a way to get recruits into the program who could help them win and shed their dreadful history of being bottom feeders. Their basketball program I'm sure isn't full of 1400+ SAT guys. My brother was recruited by Georgetown for football along with a host of PSAC D2 schools and Georgetown told him their cut off for SAT scores was just 1000. He missed the cut off by 40 points and ended up having a pretty good career at a D2 school after turning down a walk on opportunity at local Temple

[Model Citizen]

Watch for Jacksonville. First, the new administrators will have to get comfortable with the idea of scholarship football. Then they'll have to greatly improve their playing facility.

JU attendance is miserable--and not because they're playing Davidson and Marist. Gotta solve that problem before they triple their football budget. Ultimately, they might add scholarship football for a chance at SoCon membership down the road. Or not.

[FUBeAR]

If they don't successfully land Monmouth why not go after Marist if they are willing to up their scholarship money. Facilities wise they could upgrade their stadium a bit.

I would think they would have to upgrade their stadium A LOT. When I attended a game there in 2013, my "seat" on the visitors side was a large timber embedded into the slightly sloping ground behind the Visitors bench.

https://s18.postimg.org/4vvcxes1l/Marist_Visitor_Seating.jpg

Buildings on campus looked cool though and I certainly enjoyed tailgating on the banks of the Hudson River.

[DFW HOYA]

If the administration wanted to find a way for Georgetown to be competitive in the PL or competitive period they'd find a way to get recruits into the program who could help them win and shed their dreadful history of being bottom feeders. Their basketball program I'm sure isn't full of 1400+ SAT guys.

That's the Big East, not the PL. Funny how no one here ever complains that Georgetown's soccer team or women's track team isn't filled with 1400+ SAT players.


My brother was recruited by Georgetown for football along with a host of PSAC D2 schools and Georgetown told him their cut off for SAT scores was just 1000. He missed the cut off by 40 points and ended up having a pretty good career at a D2 school after turning down a walk on opportunity at local Temple

When was this? The Ivy, er...PL Index since 2001 would have Georgetown at somewhere between a 210-213 index and there's almost no room at that band for Georgetown, though it's more likely at Fordham because their SAT range is much lower. I don't think Georgetown recruits a lot of kids looking at the PSAC these days, but it doesn't recruit the Northeast as a whole as it used to.

[Model Citizen]

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget

Not sure how relevant a budget comparison is...but what about scholarship equivalencies? Does Georgetown come close to matching the top NEC teams?

It's time for Georgetown to accept that invitation to join Ivy League football. Three non-league games per year are clearly too many for them. They want the Hoyas NOW.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure how relevant a budget comparison is...but what about scholarship equivalencies? Does Georgetown come close to matching the top NEC teams?

It's time for Georgetown to accept that invitation to join Ivy League football. Three non-league games per year are clearly too many for them. They want the Hoyas NOW.

The Ancient Eight does not extend invitations, not even that trial balloon to Northwestern in the 1970's if Columbia had dropped football.

[Model Citizen]

No comment on GU's equivalency level?

If the over/under is 25, how would you bet?

[Anthony215]

That's the Big East, not the PL. Funny how no one here ever complains that Georgetown's soccer team or women's track team isn't filled with 1400+ SAT players.



When was this? The Ivy, er...PL Index since 2001 would have Georgetown at somewhere between a 210-213 index and there's almost no room at that band for Georgetown, though it's more likely at Fordham because their SAT range is much lower. I don't think Georgetown recruits a lot of kids looking at the PSAC these days, but it doesn't recruit the Northeast as a whole as it used to.

This was back in 2003 and I was there with a few other kids from Philly who were on that recruiting trip including 2 who picked Lafayette over the Georgetown offer due to the poor facilities and the rest choose PSAC schools who offered them scholarships. They invited about 30 players from the Southeastern PA area for a game against Towson before they renovated their stadium and renamed it the Multi-Purpose field. At that time it consisted of about 10 row metal bleachers hahahaha.

[Franks Tanks]

If the administration wanted to find a way for Georgetown to be competitive in the PL or competitive period they'd find a way to get recruits into the program who could help them win and shed their dreadful history of being bottom feeders. Their basketball program I'm sure isn't full of 1400+ SAT guys. My brother was recruited by Georgetown for football along with a host of PSAC D2 schools and Georgetown told him their cut off for SAT scores was just 1000. He missed the cut off by 40 points and ended up having a pretty good career at a D2 school after turning down a walk on opportunity at local Temple

Are we talking about a 960? In my experience Georgetown wouldn't even talk to a football player with a 960 as they would have no chance. I personally know individuals with much higher scores who were told they have no chance (and this was in the pre PL days).

[Anthony215]

Are we talking about a 960? In my experience Georgetown wouldn't even talk to a football player with a 960 as they would have no chance. I personally know individuals with much higher scores who were told they have no chance (and this was in the pre PL days).

Yup a 960 they explained they had a bar and 1000 was the minimum they could go for a top recruit, but they did acknowledge that most recruits needed to score higher than the 1000. The 2 kids who went on to Lafayette scored 1090 and 1150 respectively and one of them went on to be an FCS All American and All-Patriot League player before jumping into coaching at Lafayette and now at a local D2 school.

[Franks Tanks]

Yup a 960 they explained they had a bar and 1000 was the minimum they could go for a top recruit, but they did acknowledge that most recruits needed to score higher than the 1000. The 2 kids who went on to Lafayette scored 1090 and 1150 respectively and one of them went on to be an FCS All American and All-Patriot League player before jumping into coaching at Lafayette and now at a local D2 school.

Ok, well I know who coaches at the D2 school. Not personally but know who you're talking about. Not going to argue about things that transpired 15 plus years ago with someone on a message board, but my experience and the experience of others I know personally was different.

[Anthony215]

Ok, well I know who coaches at the D2 school. Not personally but know who you're talking about. Not going to argue about things that transpired 15 plus years ago with someone on a message board, but my experience and the experience of others I know personally was different.

I hear ya I'm sure all the players are glad they choose other schools playing for meaningful championships than having been a 1-2 win team a season in DC those 4-5 years. Honestly they could have been telling my brother that with the hopes that he'd score much higher than their "minimum requirement of 1000". Regardless I can't blame them for wanting the best academic proven student athletes but feel they need to look to the IVY League or Pioneer League where they have a much better chance at competing. The school has tons of money so the traveling cost won't be an issue if they went the Pioneer route and had to travel every other year out West to California.

[Model Citizen]

The school has tons of money so the traveling cost won't be an issue if they went the Pioneer route and had to travel every other year out West to California.

If they can send a soccer team to DePaul, they can send a football team to Valparaiso. If they can play volleyball at Creighton, they can play football at Drake. If their baseball can travel to Butler...

[DFW HOYA]

If they can send a soccer team to DePaul, they can send a football team to Valparaiso. If they can play volleyball at Creighton, they can play football at Drake. If their baseball can travel to Butler...

It bears repeating: Georgetown continues to have no interest in the Pioneer due to Georgetown's commitment to financial aid equivalencies . A soccer team goes to DePaul because it is a conference requirement and has support from the Fox TV contract to do so. That support does not extend to football and the handful of other sports not in the Big East.


They invited about 30 players from the Southeastern PA area for a game against Towson before they renovated their stadium and renamed it the Multi-Purpose field. At that time it consisted of about 10 row metal bleachers hahahaha.

That's not the Multi-Sport Field but Kehoe Field, which was abandoned after the 2002 season and remains a safety hazard. It's a long story but the subject of an editorial today in the student newspaper:

http://www.thehoya.com/editorial-kehoe-a-key-to-our-community/

A photo of the Kehoe turf makes this case:

http://www.thehoya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/kehoe4.png

[clenz]

I would think they would have to upgrade their stadium A LOT. When I attended a game there in 2013, my "seat" on the visitors side was a large timber embedded into the slightly sloping ground behind the Visitors bench.

https://s18.postimg.org/4vvcxes1l/Marist_Visitor_Seating.jpg

Buildings on campus looked cool though and I certainly enjoyed tailgating on the banks of the Hudson River.I can't believe programs/schools are allowed to function at a D1 athletic level with stadiums/resources like this.

I get the Dayton rule, but I hate it.

Get rid of it, allow these slap D programs that don't want to fund themselves properly for D1 football play D2 or D3. Just cap the amount they can spend on football from their athletic budget compared to everyone else. That's why the rule went in in the first place - To keep a basketball program like Dayton from funding D3 football.

Make it so the most a D1 can spend at a D2 or D3 level the average of the top 5 of that division. I'd bet most don't even meet that requirement.

[FUBeAR]

I can't believe programs/schools are allowed to function at a D1 athletic level with stadiums/resources like this.

I get the Dayton rule, but I hate it.

Get rid of it, allow these slap D programs that don't want to fund themselves properly for D1 football play D2 or D3. Just cap the amount they can spend on football from their athletic budget compared to everyone else. That's why the rule went in in the first place - To keep a basketball program like Dayton from funding D3 football.

Make it so the most a D1 can spend at a D2 or D3 level the average of the top 5 of that division. I'd bet most don't even meet that requirement.

Just remembered...it wasn't a "timber." It was an concrete column embedded in the ground. Sorry for the inaccuracy. Didn't mean to defame my Red Foxes friends.

[Model Citizen]

It bears repeating: Georgetown continues to have no interest in the Pioneer due to Georgetown's commitment to financial aid equivalencies .

Exactly how committed to equivalencies are they? With only (20?), it seems that Georgetown could drop equivalencies quickly - as San Diego did, when the Toreros got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Georgetown offering equivalencies only makes sense as a tool to be competitive in a scholarship league. Your signature line says it all.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Yup a 960 they explained they had a bar and 1000 was the minimum they could go for a top recruit, but they did acknowledge that most recruits needed to score higher than the 1000. The 2 kids who went on to Lafayette scored 1090 and 1150 respectively and one of them went on to be an FCS All American and All-Patriot League player before jumping into coaching at Lafayette and now at a local D2 school.

I would say in the late 90's, early 2000's these type of scores were "common" at Lehigh. The average SAT score of the class of 2003 or so was in the 1100-1200 range. While I believe Lehigh and the rest of the league has become more selective when it comes to admitting football players, it's not like the class of 2020 is composed of kids rocking 1350s on their SAT's and members of the NHS.

[DFW HOYA]

Exactly how committed to equivalencies are they? With only (20?), it seems that Georgetown could drop equivalencies quickly - as San Diego did, when the Toreros got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Also, as noted before, that doesn't hold water: 1) they have no interest in giving up equivalencies, and 2) 10 of the 11 Pioneer schools offer merit based aid (often called "Presidential Scholarships") that can cover most of the cost of education and are 100% accepted in PFL schools as long as athletics wasn't the determining factor. Georgetown offers no merit aid and would be at a major disadvantage. Care to guess the only PFL school without merit aid? Davidson.

This is the 25th year of the PFL. Not once in those 25 years have I heard anyone at Georgetown express an interest in this arrangement. As such, Georgetown's choices are, in diminishing order of likelihood:

1. Stay in the PL and get pounded indefinitely
2. Wait for an Ivy bid that may never come
3. Join the NEC with added equivalencies
4. Become a limited scholarship I-AA Independent
5. Go 63 scholarship and join the CAA

Big South? Well, that's the name of the thread, but it may be a little too far north for the conference. xlolx

[UNHWildcat18]

PL take over strikes again... Good for liberty football, Big South will be fine without them

[jsnow84]

RIP Big South. It wasn't good knowing ya.

Don't burn any bridges, you might want back in some day. :)

[Model Citizen]

With respect to Davidson, they don't have the worst team in D-I because they lack Presidential Scholarships. They have the most generous need-based aid in the league. There are other issues-

[Sir William]

Assuming Monmouth stays put, and neither Jacksonville nor West Georgia - nor anyone else - joins in the foreseeable future, that leaves the Big South as:

Chuck South
Gardner-Webb
Presbyterian
Monmouth
Kennesaw St
Campbell
N Alabama

Questions:
1 - Can Monmouth keep up that travel schedule for years to come, and would they want to?
2 - Is UNA a long-termer, or is the Big South merely a launch pad to the OVC for them?
3 - Where is Kennesaw in five to seven years?
4 - And the question on all our minds...why is Chuck South seemingly content after all these years to play FCS football in an aluminum-benched stadium that doesn't even measure up to D2 standards?

[citdog]

Answer to #4 is this guy.


Al Parish is....


http://news.legalexaminer.com/uploadedimages/InjuryBoardcom_Content/Blogs/News_Blog/News/Economan%20%20parish%20ecomics%20%20%20%20from%20w eb%20site%20500.jpg

[SENOREIDA]

So with Campbell entering the conference in 2018, and Liberty leaving. Is the Big South still an auto-bid conference? Thought they were one away from losing their classification

[Bucs2016]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens to Big South football over the next few seasons. While they've added Kennesaw State, Campbell and North Alabama, they've lost Coastal and Liberty, and Chuck South lost the only successful coach in its history, along with several significant assistants.

Predictions:
1) Chuck South returns to its losing ways.

2) Kennesaw and UNA become the perennial conference championship contenders.

3) Monmouth leaves in few years when invited to the NEC.

4) Jacksonville follows Campbell's lead and joins conference for football in couple of years.

5) West Georgia follows UNA's lead and transitions to D1/FCS and joins conference for football in couple of years.

6) Campbell begins seeking SoCon membership within 5-6 years. (Not saying they necessarily get invited.)

What else?

Pretty stunning move by Liberty. We'll see what happens.

You're wrong about CSU. Their last coach Jay Mills won the Big South in 2005 and went 9-2 in 2006. So 2 of CSUs 3 HCs have been successful. That program has been on a steady (if slow) progression of improvement since joining D1 in 1993. I see no reason why that trend would reverse. Some falling off, sure. All programs go up and down. But the years of 0-12, 1-11 for consecutive years are probably gone forever.

[Bucs2016]

Assuming Monmouth stays put, and neither Jacksonville nor West Georgia - nor anyone else - joins in the foreseeable future, that leaves the Big South as:

Chuck South
Gardner-Webb
Presbyterian
Monmouth
Kennesaw St
Campbell
N Alabama

Questions:
1 - Can Monmouth keep up that travel schedule for years to come, and would they want to?
2 - Is UNA a long-termer, or is the Big South merely a launch pad to the OVC for them?
3 - Where is Kennesaw in five to seven years?
4 - And the question on all our minds...why is Chuck South seemingly content after all these years to play FCS football in an aluminum-benched stadium that doesn't even measure up to D2 standards?

#4. Its not being content. Its that we just dont have a need for more yet. Our home crowds are rarely over 4,000 unless we host Citadel, SC State, Coastal, Wofford. Our school was founded in 1964. Only had football since 1991. We just dont have the crowd size.

Now...some may say why even be D1 then? Well...our teams compete. Not just football. Id see if our sports programs were all abysmal. They arent. We are probably the most over achieving D1 athletic dept in America. We get athletes here.

Our coaches are VERY good at selling the Lowcountry as our "facility". #1 tourist city in America according to numerous travel agencies/magazines. World class beaches, food, history....and per capita the hottest young women in the South. And you get to be a college kid for 4 years here.

But we are just far enough away from downtown and beaches that our athletes can focus on sports/school during the week without distraction and then live it up on weekends.

It works. Unfortunately its also why so few students and alumni attend games. Hosting Monmouth or Campbell isnt gonna get fans to say no to Folly Beach or downtown on a warm October weekend.

[Bucs2016]

So with Campbell entering the conference in 2018, and Liberty leaving. Is the Big South still an auto-bid conference? Thought they were one away from losing their classification

Thats what matters most really. Finding new members wont be that hard. Especially now. CCU and Liberty were so far ahead of the rest in terms of facilities and resources. Now the BSC will be far more balanced. More attractive to teams who may want to join.


The SoCon lost Marshall, App State, Ga Southern....and ended up just fine. Big South will be also.

[clenz]

Thats what matters most really. Finding new members wont be that hard. Especially now. CCU and Liberty were so far ahead of the rest in terms of facilities and resources. Now the BSC will be far more balanced. More attractive to teams who kay want to join.


The SoCon lost Marshall, App State, Ga Southern....and ended up just fine. Big South will be also.

Is it just mean or is this post the epitome of lowering the standard to attract lower quality replacements?

[Bucs2016]

Is it just mean or is this post the epitome of lowering the standard to attract lower quality replacements?

Well you're partly right. The Big South has always been a 2 tier league regarding resources and facilities. Its always been Liberty and Coastal (and Stony Brook when they were in) and then the rest of the league. What CSU has done is remarkable because of this. I do however think Kennessaw will reach that level quickly because they have resources.

So it sort of balances the league a little. Also weakens it. No doubt about it...losing CCU and LU absolutely weakens it. But losing App St and GSU weakened the SoCon for a while. Now others have filled that void. I fully expect Kennessaw and CSU to now be the 2 top programs the way CCU/LU have been since 2004.

We do need to find 2 or 3 more reasonable additions.

[Sir William]

You're wrong about CSU. Their last coach Jay Mills won the Big South in 2005 and went 9-2 in 2006. So 2 of CSUs 3 HCs have been successful.

Yes, Mills won the BSC in '05 (7-4) and went 9-2 in '06. But he was 48-63 (.432) over ten seasons, which means he was 32-57 (.360) apart from the two previously mentioned years. Not exactly a winning resume.

The point is that Chadwell and his staff brought Chuck South to a playing level at which y'all had never been. Can it be sustained? I guess we'll find out.


The SoCon lost Marshall, App State, Ga Southern....and ended up just fine. Big South will be also.

The differences between the SoCon and the Big South are vast, including history, tradition and facilities. Not saying the BSC won't recover to some extent, but the conference comparison is an extraordinarily lengthy stretch on its best day.


We do need to find 2 or 3 more reasonable additions.

That's true, and the additions of Kennesaw, Campbell and UNA seem to be reasonable. If 2-3 more are needed as you say, who are they in your opinion?

[walliver]

Is it just mean or is this post the epitome of lowering the standard to attract lower quality replacements?

It's the VMI philosophy. Basically, you improve the quality of your team by playing lower quality opponents.
It didn't work for VMI.

[clenz]

It's the VMI philosophy. Basically, you improve the quality of your team by playing lower quality opponents.
It didn't work for VMI.
It's not going to work for the Big South either.

Going "The SoCon replaced GSU and ASU so we will be fine too" isn't smart.

The SoCon didn't "replace" them. Someone else had to be at the top of the league, so they are.

Adding doormats will create a new top. It doesn't mean the top is actually as good/better than it was before. It may actually mean there is more separation between the top and bottom, but doesn't mean the top is better. See Big Sky right now.

Replacing CCU, the only Big South team to actually sustain national relevance, with Campbell isn't making the conference better. It's making it worse, no matter how you spin it.

[kdinva]

It's the VMI philosophy. Basically, you improve the quality of your team by playing lower quality opponents.
It didn't work for VMI.

don't remind us..... all the folks who made that decision have been "retired" for 5+ years.....

[DFW HOYA]

It's the VMI philosophy. Basically, you improve the quality of your team by playing lower quality opponents.
It didn't work for VMI.

Formerly the "Davidson philosophy"--also unsuccessful.

[Thumper 76]

Pretty stunning move by Liberty. We'll see what happens.

You're wrong about CSU. Their last coach Jay Mills won the Big South in 2005 and went 9-2 in 2006. So 2 of CSUs 3 HCs have been successful. That program has been on a steady (if slow) progression of improvement since joining D1 in 1993. I see no reason why that trend would reverse. Some falling off, sure. All programs go up and down. But the years of 0-12, 1-11 for consecutive years are probably gone forever.
Yeah, you can see the commitment from the school to be successful. It's not like it appears that the teams succeed in spite of the support or anything. Why would anyone get the impression that the program would drop back to where it was before the coach that brought them to where they have been

*he said sarcastically*


Well you're partly right. The Big South has always been a 2 tier league regarding resources and facilities. Its always been Liberty and Coastal (and Stony Brook when they were in) and then the rest of the league. What CSU has done is remarkable because of this. I do however think Kennessaw will reach that level quickly because they have resources.

So it sort of balances the league a little. Also weakens it. No doubt about it...losing CCU and LU absolutely weakens it. But losing App St and GSU weakened the SoCon for a while. Now others have filled that void. I fully expect Kennessaw and CSU to now be the 2 top programs the way CCU/LU have been since 2004.

We do need to find 2 or 3 more reasonable additions.

I mean, why would you want to have the other programs have to improve themselves when there are schools in the conference that are ahead of them in commitment? That's what happened in the MVFC, it's obviously not worked very well....it's much better to try to have them leave and let the conference wallow in mediocrity.

*more sarcasm*


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[clenz]

I mean, why would you want to have the other programs have to improve themselves when there are schools in the conference that are ahead of them in commitment? That's what happened in the MVFC, it's obviously not worked very well....it's much better to try to have them leave and let the conference wallow in mediocrity.

*more sarcasm*


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Hey...**** **** you guys. We were king **** around the midwest until you assholes in the Dakota's showed up...****ers.

[Bucs2016]

Yeah, you can see the commitment from the school to be successful. It's not like it appears that the teams succeed in spite of the support or anything. Why would anyone get the impression that the program would drop back to where it was before the coach that brought them to where they have been

*he said sarcastically*



I mean, why would you want to have the other programs have to improve themselves when there are schools in the conference that are ahead of them in commitment? That's what happened in the MVFC, it's obviously not worked very well....it's much better to try to have them leave and let the conference wallow in mediocrity.

*more sarcasm*


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I think you missed my point.

Analogy would be like if Bama and Florida were in the Sun Belt and left. Then people blamed App and GSU for not just upping their game.

CSU, GWU, PC, etc NEVER could have "upped their game" in terms of faciltiies and resources to the level of LU and CCU. Thats my point. Its about knowing who you are and being ok with it. CSU wont have 15k-20k home games....maybe ever...but at least for DECADES. Neither will GWU or PC.

Im just being realistic. We are an average league. Resources wise....LU and CCU didnt fit. Its not "good" that they left. But its not devastating either. If we tried to lure, say, Jacksonville or West Georgia or someone similar, they wont have to see Coastal and Liberty and think thats what they compete with.


What I meant by the SoCon is they attracted new teams that fit in with the SoCon. Mercer and Samford fit in vs Furman, Wofford, etc very well. In my opinion much more than App and GSU did.

Id love if CSU and the rest could step up our facilities and resources to CCU and LU levels. But we cant. And probably wont for decades.

[Thumper 76]

I think you missed my point.

Analogy would be like if Bama and Florida were in the Sun Belt and left. Then people blamed App and GSU for not just upping their game.

CSU, GWU, PC, etc NEVER could have "upped their game" in terms of faciltiies and resources to the level of LU and CCU. Thats my point. Its about knowing who you are and being ok with it. CSU wont have 15k-20k home games....maybe ever...but at least for DECADES. Neither will GWU or PC.

Im just being realistic. We are an average league. Resources wise....LU and CCU didnt fit. Its not "good" that they left. But its not devastating either. If we tried to lure, say, Jacksonville or West Georgia or someone similar, they wont have to see Coastal and Liberty and think thats what they compete with.


What I meant by the SoCon is they attracted new teams that fit in with the SoCon. Mercer and Samford fit in vs Furman, Wofford, etc very well. In my opinion much more than App and GSU did.

Id love if CSU and the rest could step up our facilities and resources to CCU and LU levels. But we cant. And probably wont for decades.

I bet you could afford to have a field that's better than my high schools. A school of 270 kids from freshman through seniors. I mean, come on. This is DI ffs. Don't complain about other schools having more resources if you aren't attempting to have any.


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[Bucs2016]

I bet you could afford to have a field that's better than my high schools. A school of 270 kids from freshman through seniors. I mean, come on. This is DI ffs. Don't complain about other schools having more resources if you aren't attempting to have any.


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It could be nicer yes. And we have plans in the works. Our story in part hinges on the jump from D3 to D1 overnight. We skilped D2. So since that...every $ of revenue we could find has been to fund scholarships. Our city is such a draw that we get some good players anyway. We played D1 from 1994-2002 with 36 scholarships. We played ok and pulled a few upsets but depth was bad. Once we got 65...its been uphill since. We finally got stable w 65 schollys and planned some big stadium stuff...then bam...Al Parish happened. Lost millions.

And the notorious zoning/approval stuff in the Lowcountry region. Even with $ its still a battle here to get approval for new stuff. Citdog said the same regarding propsed new Citadel visitor side.

And finally...sponsors. Our stadium literally sits roadside of US 52, a busy highway leading to a booming business sector. We've had 2 companies offer new stadium $ in exchance for making the roadside of it a permanent billboaed. Bud Light in rhe late 90s and Home Depot early 2000s. Both denied instantly (BL for obvious reasons).


In short...you're 100% right and we are trying...but its complicated. Winning helps. The FBS games help. And honestly the Citadel series helps because it puts a spotlight on the huge disparity in stadiums and kinda forces our administration into answering for it. Thats why playing them *and competing/winning* vs them is very important to us.

But again you're right. It can only be acceptable for so long...especially with us being a top 25 team.

[Bucs2016]

Sorry for the long response. Its a sore subject haha. But its also truly the ONLY thing keeping CSU from being a permanent top 25 program. We have enough other factors that keep us competitive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Big South won't only be fine in the future; they're fine now. They've been preparing for Liberty's departure for at least half a decade. They have been increasing their membership (Monmouth, UNA, Kennesaw) and have a farm system ready in the ASun (Jacksonville, Stetson) in case anyone else decides to move, and could also accept other D-II call-ups as well.

Matter of fact, I'd say they are in better shape than the Patriot League. If, say, Bucknell decided to pull the plug on football to focus on hoops, the Patriot League would be in dire straits. It's the Patriot League that needs to take a more proactive stance on permanent and associate football membership.

[Bucs2016]

The Big South won't only be fine in the future; they're fine now. They've been preparing for Liberty's departure for at least half a decade. They have been increasing their membership (Monmouth, UNA, Kennesaw) and have a farm system ready in the ASun (Jacksonville, Stetson) in case anyone else decides to move, and could also accept other D-II call-ups as well.

Matter of fact, I'd say they are in better shape than the Patriot League. If, say, Bucknell decided to pull the plug on football to focus on hoops, the Patriot League would be in dire straits. It's the Patriot League that needs to take a more proactive stance on permanent and associate football membership.

I agree. Its not "good" that LU or CCU left. But it may balance the league and make it more competitive in the long run.

[Go...gate]

The Big South won't only be fine in the future; they're fine now. They've been preparing for Liberty's departure for at least half a decade. They have been increasing their membership (Monmouth, UNA, Kennesaw) and have a farm system ready in the ASun (Jacksonville, Stetson) in case anyone else decides to move, and could also accept other D-II call-ups as well.

Matter of fact, I'd say they are in better shape than the Patriot League. If, say, Bucknell decided to pull the plug on football to focus on hoops, the Patriot League would be in dire straits. It's the Patriot League that needs to take a more proactive stance on permanent and associate football membership.

Sooner or later, PL football is going to have to make some kind of a move for an additional member.

[DFW HOYA]

If, say, Bucknell decided to pull the plug on football to focus on hoops, the Patriot League would be in dire straits. It's the Patriot League that needs to take a more proactive stance on permanent and associate football membership.

If Bucknell did that, PL football would be defunct. The league's bylaws require five member schools to sponsor a sport, and PL football is at the minimum.

[citdog]

If Bucknell did that, PL football would be defunct. The league's bylaws require five member schools to sponsor a sport, and PL football is at the minimum.

If I was the patsy league I would admit two schools and then kick the jesuit, papist, cultist, pedo priest, scum at georgetown out on their vatican ratline for nazi's ass...

[Go...gate]

If Bucknell did that, PL football would be defunct. The league's bylaws require five member schools to sponsor a sport, and PL football is at the minimum.

Doubtful that this will happen, though.

[ngineer]

At some point the Patriot (and Georgetown) has to come to the reality that Georgetown is increasingly non-competitive with an NEC budget and an Ivy League admissions policy, either of which are incongruous with today's high-budget PL. Maybe the NEC would be interested in bringing them on, the Ivy less so.

I really don't see Monmouth as interested in the PL. As Rev. John Brooks famously said, "We have set a course for others to follow. So far, no one has followed."

Yes, no way the Presidents of the PL admit Monmouth. At most, in the event of a departure by G'town, a temporary place holder could occur. But I doubt very much. I don't see Hoyas leaving. they haven't been winning much in the PL, but they have been "competitive" to the extent that they win a couple games and cause a few scares and that seems to be okay with Hoya administration.

[ngineer]

If I was the patsy league I would admit two schools and then kick the jesuit, papist, cultist, pedo priest, scum at georgetown out on their vatican ratline for nazi's ass...

What about Holy Cross? (;-)

[DoWe]

WTF, can you yankees not get any interest in threads about your own interests? Perhaps you should join the Big South.

[Thumper 76]

I agree. Its not "good" that LU or CCU left. But it may balance the league and make it more competitive in the long run.
Competitive nationally or internally?

WTF, can you yankees not get any interest in threads about your own interests? Perhaps you should join the Big South.
Well Liberty leaving is the biggest news of the offseason since it was announced UND was going to the MCVFC, so people are going to talk about it.



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[citdog]

WTF, can you yankees not get any interest in threads about your own interests? Perhaps you should join the Big South.

that would lead to more yankees...

[Bucs2016]

Competitive nationally or internally?

Well Liberty leaving is the biggest news of the offseason since it was announced UND was going to the MCVFC, so people are going to talk about it.



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Internally. Its not good when out of 7 or 8 teams, only 2 typically ever have a real shot at winning the conference. Its gonna be a more balanced league and I truly think that will energize the bottom half of it to improve.

[Thumper 76]

Internally. Its not good when out of 7 or 8 teams, only 2 typically ever have a real shot at winning the conference. Its gonna be a more balanced league and I truly think that will energize the bottom half of it to improve.

Gotta love fans of balanced mediocrity...


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[clenz]

Internally. Its not good when out of 7 or 8 teams, only 2 typically ever have a real shot at winning the conference. Its gonna be a more balanced league and I truly think that will energize the bottom half of it to improve.
The other teams could get better rather than waiting for good teams to leave....

Just a thought

[Bucs2016]

Gotta love fans of balanced mediocrity...


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Hey man Im just being realistic. Would the Sun Belt want Alabama in it? Sure...if they want to be a 1 team league.

Im realistic about what the Big South is and has been. We've ranged from a very average FCS league to, some years, being a pretty good one. But most of our programs are smallish schools. Most have been private or unique missions (Religious or even military when we had VMI).

IF we were a league full of teams like App State, NDSU, James Madison...then sure...id want Liberty and Coastal to stay. But we arent.

It was fun chasing Liberty and Coastal. And in the past decade...my team is the only current member who has won the Big South other than them. But now....EVERY team can realistically have a shot. Gardner Webb. Presbyterian. Monmouth. Definitely Kennessaw St. And soon North Alabama.

Whats good for the leagues home office isnt always whats good for the entire leagues participants.

[Bucs2016]

The other teams could get better rather than waiting for good teams to leave....

Just a thought

True in theory. But have you visitied all the Big South campuses? The gap in resources between LU/Coastal vs the rest of the league is massive. In relative terms it would be like Alabama being in the Sun Belt. CSU, PC, GWU, etc are nowhere close to them and that wouldn't change for decades. The bottom half would never compete with them.

I prefer balance. Like the Southern Conference. Would it shock anyone if almost any team other than VMI won that league? Not me. WC, FU, Mercer, Cid, ETSU, WCU, Samford...they could all win it and thats FUN to watch. Could you say the same if App State and GSU were still there?

The ONLY reason my team can hang with them is the city we are in and proximity to the beach. Its a recruiting jackpot once you get the kids downtown for a night and we have been able to land some Coastal/LU caliber players as a result. If we were in the middle of nowhere like Presbyterian or Gardner Webb....we'd be a 2 or 3 win program every single year.

[Bucs2016]

This league has some hsitory of D2 teams moving up. GWU and PC were long time SAC8 power. North Alabama obviously coming in will get good very quick. CSU skipped D2 all together (a mistake) but was a D3. This league in my opinion should stick to that pattern. Id like to see them target some great D2 programs rather than lure existing D1 ones. North Alabama was a tremendous get. Id love to see Carson-Newman or Wingate move up but they wont. The most obvious one the Big South wants is for Winthrop to start football. Also not happening despite strong support for it and all the ingredients being in place (even have a large city stadium already in place).

My personal favorite would be Newberry. Their D2 rivalry with PC was intense and they play very competitive football. They're making a huge investment in facilities in the coming years. I think PC would love to renwe that huge rivalry.

[Libertine]

CSU skipped D2 all together (a mistake) but was a D3.

CSU didn't have a choice on D2; their jump from D3 was a direct result of the NCAA's "Dayton Rule" in 1993 that also essentially birthed the Pioneer and NEC conferences entire.

CSU was facing disastrous enrollment numbers in the late 1980's and started the football program in 1991 at the D3 level to get their student rolls up while keeping scholarship costs down. However, the NCAA ruled months later that all major sports had to be on the same level of competition and, rather than drop the program and go back to square one, CSU elected to move the program up to I-AA but at drastically reduced aid levels that persisted well into the 2000's.

[Bucs2016]

CSU didn't have a choice on D2; their jump from D3 was a direct result of the NCAA's "Dayton Rule" in 1993 that also essentially birthed the Pioneer and NEC conferences entire.

CSU was facing disastrous enrollment numbers in the late 1980's and started the football program in 1991 at the D3 level to get their student rolls up while keeping scholarship costs down. However, the NCAA ruled months later that all major sports had to be on the same level of competition and, rather than drop the program and go back to square one, CSU elected to move the program up to I-AA but at drastically reduced aid levels that persisted well into the 2000's.

Yes you are 100% right. The "mistake" part im referring to is them immediately making the jump rather than shut it down for a couple years, pool resources and field a 1-AA team in 1995/1996 rather than 1993.

Those atrocious 1993-1997 seasons really hurt. Once they caught up they began being more competitive in the late 90s. Finally beat Liberty in 2000 (25-0 @ Liberty, also took Samford to OT, very competitive with Wofford, went 6-6 i think) and then in 2002 FINALLY got full 65 scholarship total and the program has established some nice success now.

Those 1999-2002 teams were real trailblazers haha. I remember seeing some of their film. They had some players. But half of their 2nd string was walk ons so they fell apart with a few injuries. Ive met some of those guys at games. They all talk about how that 2000 team was set for an 8 or 9 win season but the QB went down, it was John Sills I think, a transfer who started at Oklahoma before Bob Stoops arrived. When he went down their offense obviously would've suffered.

Anyway...now they have 65 instead of 35 schollys so now depth is a talent issue not a financial one, just like all 65 sch teams.

[Model Citizen]

Finishing touches on this psychedelic realignment, after WSU goes to the AAC, the MVC brings in the remainder of the MVFC, and the Hot Garbage Conference gets its mega TV contract...


Summit League
IUPUI
Oakland
IPFW
UMKC
Omaha
Chicago State
Texas A&M CC
UTRGV
- possible merger with Horizon, to form "Summit on the Horizon League" :-)

Western Athletic
UC Bakersfield
New Mexico St.
Grand Canyon
Seattle
Utah Valley
Cal Lutheran (2018)
UC San Diego (2020)
TBA

[kdinva]

Finishing touches on this psychedelic realignment, after WSU goes to the AAC, the MVC brings in the remainder of the MVFC, and the Hot Garbage Conference gets its mega TV contract...


Summit League
IUPUI
Oakland
IPFW
UMKC
Omaha
Chicago State
Texas A&M CC
UTRGV

Western Athletic
UC Bakersfield
New Mexico St.
Grand Canyon
Seattle
Utah Valley
Cal Lutheran (2018)
UC San Diego (2020)
TBA

Big South fits in where?

[Model Citizen]

Big South fits in where?

Searching for an appropriate punch line...

[Libertine]

Yes you are 100% right. The "mistake" part im referring to is them immediately making the jump rather than shut it down for a couple years, pool resources and field a 1-AA team in 1995/1996 rather than 1993.

I don't think they had the time for that. CSU needed warm butts in the classrooms ASAP. When I say the enrollment numbers were disastrous, I mean the school was in danger of shutting down completely. The 1980's were a very bad period for Charleston Southern. The construction of Lightsey Chapel had already nearly bankrupted the school early in the decade and add to that the 1987 market crash and the Jim Bakker scandal that damaged donor giving to all faith-based institutions everywhere. My point is that CSU was in crisis mode during that time frame and shutting down the program for a couple of years would have cost them tuition dollars and publicity that they desperately needed.

[Bucs2016]

I don't think they had the time for that. CSU needed warm butts in the classrooms ASAP. When I say the enrollment numbers were disastrous, I mean the school was in danger of shutting down completely. The 1980's were a very bad period for Charleston Southern. The construction of Lightsey Chapel had already nearly bankrupted the school early in the decade and add to that the 1987 market crash and the Jim Bakker scandal that damaged donor giving to all faith-based institutions everywhere. My point is that CSU was in crisis mode during that time frame and shutting down the program for a couple of years would have cost them tuition dollars and publicity that they desperately needed.

Yeah thats a great point. They were more interested in bodies than scoreboards.

Im so proud of what that program has accomplished against some big odds. God help our opponents if CSU ever invests in a stadium and competitive coaches salaries!