Patriot League and Redshirting

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I noticed the Fordham fans are starting to stir the pot regarding redshirting. I'm not too familiar with the details but it seems do to a lack of grad programs at certain schools in the league as well as cost containment issues that it might never happen. I absolutely believe it puts the league at a disadvantage to start the year (which is why I don't like "reach" FBS games for PL) but in the long run it doesn't matter. IIRC, this is the main reason the Lehigh-Delaware rival died in the 90's. Lehigh wanted the game in late September, early October while UD wanted it as the first or second game of the season.

Fordham took the lead in scholarships but both Lehigh and Colgate were vocal supporters of going that direction for several years but they didn't won't to ruffle any feathers. Would the league ever consider allowing red-shirting? Even in small numbers? I don't believe it's needed to compete for a title but I think redshirting would greatly help if you're really going to start scheduling aggressively early in the season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Without going into a deep dive about it, there are methods that Lafayette uses (at a bare minimum) to have 5th year players, so in theory it is possible. Holy Cross does as well. My semi-educated guess is that it might be possible, but whether the institutional will is there... unclear.

[RichH2]

I noticed the Fordham fans are starting to stir the pot regarding redshirting. I'm not too familiar with the details but it seems do to a lack of grad programs at certain schools in the league as well as cost containment issues that it might never happen. I absolutely believe it puts the league at a disadvantage to start the year (which is why I don't like "reach" FBS games for PL) but in the long run it doesn't matter. IIRC, this is the main reason the Lehigh-Delaware rival died in the 90's. Lehigh wanted the game in late September, early October while UD wanted it as the first or second game of the season.

Fordham took the lead in scholarships but both Lehigh and Colgate were vocal supporters of going that direction for several years but they didn't won't to ruffle any feathers. Would the league ever consider allowing red-shirting? Even in small numbers? I don't believe it's needed to compete for a title but I think redshirting would greatly help if you're really going to start scheduling aggressively early in the season.

NCAA redshirt rules not likely in PL. Biggest isdue does seem to be grad schools at some and not others. As noted most schools are aggressively using the medical exception permitted by PL.
The only short term compromise I see is for PL to allow teams to redshirt X number of players per year ie 3-5..
No clue whether that has been considered. Current rule tho is an effective bar to attacting teams to join the PL regardless of our stated priority to add a football member.

[van]

I never quite understood how scholarships are spread with red shirts, if you have 8 or 10 red shirts does that not mean smaller classes? can still only put 11 on the field at one time

I know this issue has been discussed a lot, but seems to me that it is marginally beneficial with 60 scholarship limit

[crusader11]

Without going into a deep dive about it, there are methods that Lafayette uses (at a bare minimum) to have 5th year players, so in theory it is possible. Holy Cross does as well. My semi-educated guess is that it might be possible, but whether the institutional will is there... unclear.

The "method" used by HC is that if a player is injured and that has been medically documented, he can apply for a medical redshirt and receive a fifth year. Usually, the player will leave school for a semester, and may be required to pick up a second major or minor.

[Franks Tanks]

The "method" used by HC is that if a player is injured and that has been medically documented, he can apply for a medical redshirt and receive a fifth year. Usually, the player will leave school for a semester, and may be required to pick up a second major or minor.

Same at Lafayette, and we explained a million times. I know the situation is a bit weird, but if a player wants to redshirt they deal. Colgate and Bucknell also have very small grad schools, like less then 200 students fur Colgate last I checked.

[Franks Tanks]

Same at Lafayette, and we explained a million times. I know the situation is a bit weird, but if a player wants to redshirt they deal. Colgate and Bucknell also have very small grad schools, like less then 200 students fur Colgate last I checked.

Per Wikipedia Colgate has 12 grad students and Bucknell has 59. I'm sure these numbers aren't entirely accurate, but both grad schools are very small.

[Go...gate]

I think scholarships was as far as anyone dared go.

I don't see pure red-shirting coming in.

And let's face it, there are those Fordham fans who do not care for the Patriot League and would like to be in the CAA, where the practice is allowed.

[RichH2]

I never quite understood how scholarships are spread with red shirts, if you have 8 or 10 red shirts does that not mean smaller classes? can still only put 11 on the field at one time

I know this issue has been discussed a lot, but seems to me that it is marginally beneficial with 60 scholarship limit
W&M redshirt a good part if not all of each frosh class. The start of that policy is tough as you do lose those numbers. Once policy up and running tho HC gets to have them back as 5th yr seniors. Not a problem that a PL HC will face in roster management. Hell think we are only now adjusting to not having 100+ bodies :))

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think scholarships was as far as anyone dared go.

I don't see pure red-shirting coming in.

And let's face it, there are those Fordham fans who do not care for the Patriot League and would like to be in the CAA, where the practice is allowed.

At some point what's going to stop them from leaving? Even though it's not likely imo. They would fit in with fellow A10'ers URI and Richmond. Now that we've come full circle with scholarships I think it will revert back to a Lehigh and Colgate led PL.

They're in trouble next year against EWU and that early season schedule. Edmonds is absurd but he can't do it by himself. Anderson is solid but certainly not a Nebrich/Skelton/Eakin level QB. They have some other solid players but there's definitely a talent off from the '13 and '14 teams. Breiner will certainly be tested.

Honestly, going to the CAA and adding red-shirts isn't going to make them national title contenders. I don't think they have the facilities or will ever have them. Plus, Fordham is definitely a bit of niche school due to its location (like Temple) and Jesuit tradition. They'd be an occasional contenders like they'll end up being in the PL imo.

[Franks Tanks]

At some point what's going to stop them from leaving? Now that we've come full circle I think it revert back to a Lehigh and Colgate led PL.

They're in trouble next year against EWU and that early season schedule. Edmonds is absurd but he can't do it by himself. Anderson is solid but certainly not a Nebrich/Skelton/Eakin level QB. They have some other solid players but there's definitely a talent off from the '13 and '14 teams. Breiner will certainly be tested.

Honestly, going to the CAA and adding red-shirts isn't going to make them national title contenders. I don't think they have the facilities and Fordham is definitely a bit of niche school due to its location (like Temple) and Jesuit tradition. They'd be a occasional contenders like they'll end up being the PL imo.

Agree that it is very unlikely that Fordham is going anywhere. Breiner is a good offensive coach, but he is not Moorhead, and Fordham will slip. Also the CAA doesn't need them as a FB only member, and Fordham isn't leaving the A-10.

[DFW HOYA]

"Definitely a bit of niche school due to its location (like Temple) and Jesuit tradition."

Well, it hasn't helped Georgetown...

[Sader87]

We coulda been in the Big East ya' know...xdrunkyx

[RichH2]

We coulda been in the Big East ya' know...xdrunkyx

Took you long enuf :):):)

[RichH2]

The issue for PL is not who is leaving but who can we get.:)

[Doc QB]

What are the actual rules on academic progress? I'm 25 yrs removed, and we had plenty of kids who had a year left when I was there who graduated, or stayed another semester because they had another season of eligibility. One must obviously carry a full course load credit/class wise each semester to remain eligible. But, many kids today take five years to graduate with your undergraduate degree. Same should be allowed of athletes, regardless of whether or not they are on scholarship. These are mostly smart kids not majoring in advanced underwater basket weaving...its takes the smartest five years sometimes, its not because they don't belong, it is because it is tough, and many students have full plates beyond athletics as well. My point...do you really need a graduate school or grad programs across the league? If the athlete's progress is on pathway, if they take five or 4.5, does it matter, and...could that be an argument to allow athletes that redshirt year in PL, or something to exploit????

[RichH2]

What are the actual rules on academic progress? I'm 25 yrs removed, and we had plenty of kids who had a year left when I was there who graduated, or stayed another semester because they had another season of eligibility. One must obviously carry a full course load credit/class wise each semester to remain eligible. But, many kids today take five years to graduate with your undergraduate degree. Same should be allowed of athletes, regardless of whether or not they are on scholarship. These are mostly smart kids not majoring in advanced underwater basket weaving...its takes the smartest five years sometimes, its not because they don't belong, it is because it is tough, and many students have full plates beyond athletics as well. My point...do you really need a graduate school or grad programs across the league? If the athlete's progress is on pathway, if they take five or 4.5, does it matter, and...could that be an argument to allow athletes that redshirt year in PL, or something to exploit????

I dont have all the answers or info Current rules a scholarship athlete has r yrs of athletic eligibility period. Extending that requires that the applicant must fit within one of the enumerated execeptions. A kud on a 5 yr academuc calendar still only has 4 yrs of athletic time. Outside PL he/ she can take a redshirt . PL they cannot. I agree that PL should allow a redshirt for these athletes. Such a polucy makes sense and would IMO at least partially eliminate the current objections by some PL schools. Good idea.

[Doc QB]

I dont have all the answers or info Current rules a scholarship athlete has r yrs of athletic eligibility period. Extending that requires that the applicant must fit within one of the enumerated execeptions. A kud on a 5 yr academuc calendar still only has 4 yrs of athletic time. Outside PL he/ she can take a redshirt . PL they cannot. I agree that PL should allow a redshirt for these athletes. Such a polucy makes sense and would IMO at least partially eliminate the current objections by some PL schools. Good idea.

AND...allowing kids 4.5-5 yrs to complete the undergraduate degree, allowing coaches to redshirt a whole class, case by case, whatever...opens up a whole new can of worms expansion wise, yes?

This is my weak attempt to hijack a PL thread with PL expansion thread. We even do it to ourselves. Hope no one takes the bait. I'd rather we try to join the CAA. Now, on to Bucknell and get a Championship. Dead-horse-beaten PL threads are temporary, hardware is forever.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dead-horse-beaten PL threads are temporary, hardware is forever.

Thanks for my new sig!

[RichH2]

Well Doc open reshirting under NCAA rules would be nice but PL still has vestiges of our Ivy Lite inception. Not real likely.
Think that there are possible modifications that are possible now.
Your idea on 5 yr student athletes and permitting a limited number of NCAA redshirts each year.

[Franks Tanks]

What are the actual rules on academic progress? I'm 25 yrs removed, and we had plenty of kids who had a year left when I was there who graduated, or stayed another semester because they had another season of eligibility. One must obviously carry a full course load credit/class wise each semester to remain eligible. But, many kids today take five years to graduate with your undergraduate degree. Same should be allowed of athletes, regardless of whether or not they are on scholarship. These are mostly smart kids not majoring in advanced underwater basket weaving...its takes the smartest five years sometimes, its not because they don't belong, it is because it is tough, and many students have full plates beyond athletics as well. My point...do you really need a graduate school or grad programs across the league? If the athlete's progress is on pathway, if they take five or 4.5, does it matter, and...could that be an argument to allow athletes that redshirt year in PL, or something to exploit????
You are correct, but all PL schools still expect the vast majority of students to graduate in 4 years. If more and more athletes spend greater than 4 years in school, the eggheads will get restless. I do think this is one battle we don't want to fight anytime soon.

[DFW HOYA]

You are correct, but all PL schools still expect the vast majority of students to graduate in 4 years. If more and more athletes spend greater than 4 years in school, the eggheads will get restless. I do think this is one battle we don't want to fight anytime soon.

A December graduation plan (nine semesters) should not stir up the ivory tower. Now if you really want a discussion, let's introduce blueshirting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/recruiting/2016/01/31/college-football-recruiting-redshirt-greenshirt-grayshirt-blueshirt/79603750/

[Doc QB]

A December graduation plan (nine semesters) should not stir up the ivory tower. Now if you really want a discussion, let's introduce blueshirting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/recruiting/2016/01/31/college-football-recruiting-redshirt-greenshirt-grayshirt-blueshirt/79603750/

Wow...hadn't heard of the blueshirts. Doubt PL would swim in those waters, nor those of early enrollees either. But, change is inevitable as budgets, competition, facilities arms races trickle down to FCS. A pretty solid argument could be made to allow the 4.5 yr kid, nine semesters as DFW points out, gives that athlete maybe a chance to complete a more difficult major they would have taken a pass on or a minor; change major entirely. The extra time would probably not always be about football. But the flexibility would be nice for a number of reasons.

[Go Green]

The "method" used by HC is that if a player is injured and that has been medically documented, he can apply for a medical redshirt and receive a fifth year. .

Same as the Ivy, but the injury must have occurred in the third game or earlier.

If the kid recovers from a sprained knee from the preseason to make his first appearance in game 4, and re-injures the knee on the first play of the game, he's not eligible for a medical redshirt in the Ivy.

I assume the PL has some similar criteria.

[2ram]

And let's face it, there are those Fordham fans who do not care for the Patriot League and would like to be in the CAA, where the practice is allowed.

i think this is fallacy. fordham fans pretty much universally enjoy the PL and think it's a good fit for football, but want to take the leagues ivy lite shackles off.

i don't really see it happening, but if it does, not any time soon.

[RichH2]

Same as the Ivy, but the injury must have occurred in the third game or earlier.

If the kid recovers from a sprained knee from the preseason to make his first appearance in game 4, and re-injures the knee on the first play of the game, he's not eligible for a medical redshirt in the Ivy.

I assume the PL has some similar criteria.

PL uses NCAA criteria.

As noted on another thread the game limit is 4 now. NCAA computes time on full games not quarters.

[Fordham]

i think this is fallacy. fordham fans pretty much universally enjoy the PL and think it's a good fit for football, but want to take the leagues ivy lite shackles off.

i don't really see it happening, but if it does, not any time soon.

agreed completely. As an institution we are very happy with football in the PL imo. I'm happy with us there too yet I still would like to see the league's self imposed restrictions lifted since I see them as a sop to the Ivy league or things that provide a veneer of the league being more academically focused than others but that don't stand up to scrutiny.

Here are my posts on the Fordham board. This is based on a previous question where we were going back and forth about whether or not redshirting would require add'l spending and the answer was that it should not. If that's wrong, feel free to correct it but the following was written with the idea that it would be cost neutral like scholarships:


So allowing redshirting really doesn't trigger an increase in costs then, right? The argument that it somehow signifies an increased commitment to the sport that will then trigger incremental costs in order to keep up with facilities, etc is the same one that was made when we moved to scholarships. That increase in spending is simply not required if the PL as a
group moves together on the issue.

I'm pessimistic that this will ever get done and I really feel that so much of it has to do with appearances rather than substance. Everyone knew that moving from need based to scholarships was not going to cause an incremental spend but rather the shifting expenses you reference above. Further, it can be argued that you can now recruit a better student as well as a better athlete since you're able to recruit the entire marketplace of athletes versus just those who fit into the need-based aid model. That didn't matter though since some schools just didn't want to have the perception with their own faculty or the marketplace that they were emphasizing the sport. I think redshirting falls into a similar category where, as ace wrote, it may actually help produce better results academically but that's not the way the story is likely to be perceived by faculty or the marketplace and no one has the stomach to fight against that perception imo. I think losing the AI is even more unlikely and, once again, only due to the perception that dropping it would carry. Frustrating. I just don't see us
taking a stand over either issue after we already did it over scholarships and I certainly don't see any other PL school leading on the issue.


Just my opinion but I think the reason the scholarship move worked is that we were truly ready to leave over the issue and the PL had no other good alternatives to replace us. I don't think either redshirting or the AI is something that the Fordham administration considers important enough to threaten leaving the league over it. Without a PL school taking a stand, I just don't see movement on the issue and I don't think any other PL school other than Fordham has shown any willingness to lead.

[Go...gate]

i think this is fallacy. fordham fans pretty much universally enjoy the PL and think it's a good fit for football, but want to take the leagues ivy lite shackles off.

i don't really see it happening, but if it does, not any time soon.

I believe that the League has gone as far as it is going to go on that so-called "Ivy Lite" issue. The roster limitations, which are an insult to common sense, may be loosened a bit, but it is hard to see any other change for a long time. The scholarship issue was a big challenge.

[RichH2]

I believe that the League has gone as far as it is going to go on that so-called "ivy Lite" issue. The roster limitations, which are an insult to common sense, may be loosened a bit, but it is hard to see any other change for a long time. The scholarship issue was a big challenge.

Possible that PL will sit still but I dont think so. Agree on roster caps. An asinine sop to a few schools. There is pressure to add a football member. Will not happen under current scheme. Supposedly a cost cutting and not only a sop to Ivy pretentiousness. As noted redshirting does not increase the number of allowed schollies,it just spreads them out.
PL not likely to go NCAA only but there are a number of modifications that can make PL more competitive OOC and more attractive as a destination
IMO a few more years at full schollie (60) PL will be ready for some changes. Hell they may even let coaches habe all 63 .

[Anthony215]

If the PL isn't going to allow Redshirting what will happen is the players will not play as freshman thus retaining an final year of eligibility to transfer elsewhere for the 5th year. Lafayette had a guy who was a DB who used his 5th year to transfer to D2 East Stroudsburg and he was a part time starter at Lafayette & ESU as a grad student.

[Thumper 76]

Why doesn't the PL allow redshirting? I have no knowledge on the topic I guess. Not sure why it would cost any more, you still offer the same amount of scholarships so whether the student is going for four or five years it doesn't matter because as a team you still have the same cost. The lack of redshirting is a huge disadvantage IMO. There is no comparison between an athlete just coming in as an 18 year old out of high school and the same athlete in a fifth year of college weight training. Thats essentially what you are trading there. Is it just an Ivy league like mindset of "purity" or whatever you want to call it?

[Franks Tanks]

Why doesn't the PL allow redshirting? I have no knowledge on the topic I guess. Not sure why it would cost any more, you still offer the same amount of scholarships so whether the student is going for four or five years it doesn't matter because as a team you still have the same cost. The lack of redshirting is a huge disadvantage IMO. There is no comparison between an athlete just coming in as an 18 year old out of high school and the same athlete in a fifth year of college weight training. Thats essentially what you are trading there. Is it just an Ivy league like mindset of "purity" or whatever you want to call it?

It is philosophy not $. The idea that theoretically a student shouldn't delay graduation, or be tempted to, to play a sport. Medical redshirting is allowed, and certain schools have been known to get a bit creative with that xsmiley_wix

[RichH2]

Agreevour rule is based on the Ivy hallowed principles. Of course Ivies grey shirt their recruits which may undercut the hallowed description :). Academic pretensions that serve only to maintain academic "integrity". How it does that escapes me.

[Thumper 76]

It is philosophy not $. The idea that theoretically a student shouldn't delay graduation, or be tempted to, to play a sport. Medical redshirting is allowed, and certain schools have been known to get a bit creative with that xsmiley_wix
So does the average student graduate in four years then at a Patriot League school? I'm pretty sure in most schools they don't, now I have to do some googling.

[Thumper 76]

I've done my googling, on 19% of students graduate on time earning a four year degree. I can't imagine that the PL schools are at 75% or more of the school graduating in four years then if thats the case, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyways, if they are at a lower rate of students graduating in four years like the rest of the country the no redshirt rule is actually wildly unfair to the athletes IMHO. Like almost criminally.

[Franks Tanks]

So does the average student graduate in four years then at a Patriot League school? I'm pretty sure in most schools they don't, now I have to do some googling.

Yes, probably well north of 80%. There are many reasons for this, and I will name a few. The students are generally fairly well off so they don't have as many family or money issues. There are few at risk students, and even when students get poor grades, most "elite" schools tend to give kids many chances to straighten up. There is not as much confusion/issues around credits and perhaps missing some random classes. The curriculum is designed to get kids out in 4 years, and most students have the capacity to do in that time.

Back to red shirting there is also the attitude that doing so places athletic success/importance over academics, as the student has only extended college to play a sport. I know its goofy, but a long standing attitude among academics at many private colleges in the Northeast. Even Notre Dame didn't like res shirting athletes for many years, and wanted a darn good academic reason to do so.

[crusader11]

90% of Holy Cross students graduate in four years: http://news.holycross.edu/blog/2013/10/15/holy-cross-graduation-rates-among-highest-in-the-nation-2/

I imagine that 75+ % of PL students graduate from their respective schools in four years.

[Franks Tanks]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

87% in 4 years per the attached for Lafayette. Again, everything is oriented around getting out after 4 years, so most students have no problem doing so. Understand is quite difficult to do so at many schools for various reasons.

[Thumper 76]

Ok makes sense then that they don't allow redshirts to me then.

[crusader11]

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rate

87% in 4 years per the attached for Lafayette. Again, everything is oriented around getting out after 4 years, so most students have no problem doing so. Understand is quite difficult to do so at many schools for various reasons.

Per this list, Bucknell is 85%, Colgate is 86%, Georgetown is 90%, Lehigh is 74%, Fordham is 75%.

Surprised at that Lehigh figure.

[RichH2]

So does the average student graduate in four years then at a Patriot League school? I'm pretty sure in most schools they don't, now I have to do some googling.

Actually most students do graduate in 4
Quick scan it is not much different with athletes factoring in 5th year medical extensions. Lehigh and I assume all PL schools has a miniscule academic attrition rate. Academic progress is monitored closely. A player cannot maintain eligibility if he falls behind on his degree requirements. More common, tho still rare, are situations where a kid changes majors or switches to a double major program. Either may delay graduation.

[DFW HOYA]

90% of Holy Cross students graduate in four years: http://news.holycross.edu/blog/2013/10/15/holy-cross-graduation-rates-among-highest-in-the-nation-2/

I imagine that all PL schools graduate their students in four years.

Four year rates per US News:

Georgetown: 90%
Holy Cross; 89%
Lafayette: 87%
Colgate: 86%
Bucknell: 85%
Fordham: 75%
Lehigh: 74%

[Franks Tanks]

Ok makes sense then that they don't allow redshirts to me then.

There is a reason behind it, but I don't necessarily agree with the logic. We've just all learned to live with it.

[Franks Tanks]

Per this list, Bucknell is 85%, Colgate is 86%, Georgetown is 90%, Lehigh is 74%, Fordham is 75%.

Surprised at that Lehigh figure.

I'm not. Have you ever met Lehigh students?

[crusader11]

It's tough for liberal arts colleges to justify allowing redshirts when there isn't a graduate school program -- I actually don't disagree with the PL here.

[crusader11]

I'm not. Have you ever met Lehigh students?

LOL. Actually, I really haven't met many. Most of the guys I know from PL schools went to Colgate and Bucknell.

[walliver]

I've done my googling, on 19% of students graduate on time earning a four year degree. I can't imagine that the PL schools are at 75% or more of the school graduating in four years then if thats the case, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyways, if they are at a lower rate of students graduating in four years like the rest of the country the no redshirt rule is actually wildly unfair to the athletes IMHO. Like almost criminally.

19% seems incredibly low. I suspect that number is due to several factors:
1) Part-time/night students
2) Students who were accepted but weren't really college material and drop out or flunk out
- I suspect that above 2 are the most important
3) Majors requiring more than 4 years (some Engineering schools)
4) People changing majors
5) Students who transfer out

The worse graduation rate in the SoCon (ETSU at 19%) would seem to be the national average.
Looking at these numbers ( http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/professionals/four-year-graduation-rates-for-four-year-colleges.pdf ), It is hard to see how an average of 19% could be reached (do your numbers include community colleges?), but there are some frightening numbers. What is really worrisome is that there seem to be a lot of people spending a lot of money and running up a ****load of debt with little to show for it.

[Thumper 76]

19% seems incredibly low. I suspect that number is due to several factors:
1) Part-time/night students
2) Students who were accepted but weren't really college material and drop out or flunk out
- I suspect that above 2 are the most important
3) Majors requiring more than 4 years (some Engineering schools)
4) People changing majors
5) Students who transfer out

The worse graduation rate in the SoCon (ETSU at 19%) would seem to be the national average.
Looking at these numbers ( http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/professionals/four-year-graduation-rates-for-four-year-colleges.pdf ), It is hard to see how an average of 19% could be reached (do your numbers include community colleges?), but there are some frightening numbers. What is really worrisome is that there seem to be a lot of people spending a lot of money and running up a ****load of debt with little to show for it.
That isn't graduation rate, its percent of people who finish in four years. To be honest I don't run into many people who graduated in four years, its usually five. I think a lot of it has to do with people changing majors tbh. A lot of people switch their majors and the normal is becoming five years more and more.

[LeopardBall10]

It's tough for liberal arts colleges to justify allowing redshirts when there isn't a graduate school program -- I actually don't disagree with the PL here.

I agree with this. Especially with the redshirt senior able to just up and leave a school without a graduate program and spend his 5th year elsewhere.

[Spider from the North]

I wonder if the new and trending "Gap year" concept will impact 4-year graduation rates.

[Fordham]

I agree with this. Especially with the redshirt senior able to just up and leave a school without a graduate program and spend his 5th year elsewhere.
So I guess the first step is more so getting you guys to commit to a much broader graduate program offering so we can justify redshirting. Sounds like a plan

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's say Lafayette had a reciprocal agreement with, say, UPenn's graduate program that allows Lafayette's 5th year football players to apply for graduate school there and take classes there while still competing with Lafayette in football. Maybe make it a network of graduate programs, all superb quality grad programs, that pass Lafayette's academic muster, so that if you get in, you can do this for one semester. Couldn't that work? Would the academic world cave in if this were offered?

The Ivies should have zero say on the matter of reshirting policies because there is no bigger manipulator of the "shirting" rules than Harvard. The Crimson have literally said one of their QBs was off the team "to get his grades in order", but was magically reinstated once the two starters went down in front of him. To me that's ten times worse than actually redshirting.

[PAllen]

Let's say Lafayette had a reciprocal agreement with, say, UPenn's graduate program that allows Lafayette's 5th year football players to apply for graduate school there and take classes there while still competing with Lafayette in football. Maybe make it a network of graduate programs, all superb quality grad programs, that pass Lafayette's academic muster, so that if you get in, you can do this for one semester. Couldn't that work? Would the academic world cave in if this were offered?

The Ivies should have zero say on the matter of reshirting policies because there is no bigger manipulator of the "shirting" rules than Harvard. The Crimson have literally said one of their QBs was off the team "to get his grades in order", but was magically reinstated once the two starters went down in front of him. To me that's ten times worse than actually redshirting.

Doesn't Lafayette already have such a program with Lehigh? I thought that all (or most) of the Lehigh Valley colleges were in a program that allowed students to cross enroll if the program or course was not offered at their home school?

[RichH2]

Doesn't Lafayette already have such a program with Lehigh? I thought that all (or most) of the Lehigh Valley colleges were in a program that allowed students to cross enroll if the program or course was not offered at their home school?

Not sure if all participate but many do. Am aware that Pard engineer majors take courses at Lehigh.

[bostonspider]

Four year rates per US News:

Georgetown: 90%
Holy Cross; 89%
Lafayette: 87%
Colgate: 86%
Bucknell: 85%
Fordham: 75%
Lehigh: 74%

But Villanova is at 87%
Richmond 83%
W&M 82%
and they all offer redshirts..

[clenz]

How the **** do you get 80%+ done in four years? Those schools must not take many part time students, or count part time students, or anything along those lines.

I can't fathom how us "lesser schools" have 4 year graduation rates where we do and those that are "vastly superior" are where they are.

It has to be how schedules are set up. I started at a liberal arts private school. The way the block/mini mester/j term work is completely different than a semester set up. It's why when I transferred nothing transferred worth ****. From 7 classes I got to take 4 credit hours.

Where I'm getting my masters is a smaller private school. Was a college until about a decade ago when grad programs were added. They use the block set up as well. I started classes in august and I've already completed two classes. I'll be done with my third in a month. By Christmas I'll have taken 6 or 7 classes. 7 classes is damn near 2 semesters at UNI as a full time student as 4 classes is the "full time" thing. Most UNI students will take 9 classes between August and May. I'll have 6 or 7 (I don't remember exactly) in one semester.

That probably has a lot to do with it.

[Franks Tanks]

Not sure if all participate but many do. Am aware that Pard engineer majors take courses at Lehigh.

Yes, we send bottom 10% to Lehigh so those kids feel more comfortable.

[Franks Tanks]

Not sure Clenz, but pretty sure all PL schools use regular semester scheduling. They are very good students who typically come from families that can support their education. This goes a long way. Also schools are setup to get kids out in 4 years. Grad requirements aren't as confusing as those I've seen at other schools. You take x number of classes within your major, take y number of required courses and have z number of electives. It just works out that most graduate within 4 years u less that have a late change of major, or flunked a bunch of classes.

[RichH2]

Yes, we send bottom 10% to Lehigh so those kids feel more comfortable.

:) :) A bit surprised at the 4 yr rates cited at 19%. Not sure how important this stat is overall. LU and LC do participate in the LV Cooperative program. Never realized how interwoven LV colleges actually are. From what I've been reading a number of LC engineering students are taking courses not offered by LC.

[TheValleyRaider]

How the **** do you get 80%+ done in four years? Those schools must not take many part time students, or count part time students, or anything along those lines.

I can't fathom how us "lesser schools" have 4 year graduation rates where we do and those that are "vastly superior" are where they are.

It has to be how schedules are set up. I started at a liberal arts private school. The way the block/mini mester/j term work is completely different than a semester set up. It's why when I transferred nothing transferred worth ****. From 7 classes I got to take 4 credit hours.

Where I'm getting my masters is a smaller private school. Was a college until about a decade ago when grad programs were added. They use the block set up as well. I started classes in august and I've already completed two classes. I'll be done with my third in a month. By Christmas I'll have taken 6 or 7 classes. 7 classes is damn near 2 semesters at UNI as a full time student as 4 classes is the "full time" thing. Most UNI students will take 9 classes between August and May. I'll have 6 or 7 (I don't remember exactly) in one semester.

That probably has a lot to do with it.

I can only really speak to Colgate, but I suspect some of the same reasons apply for other PL members.

We don't really have part-time students. A Colgate BA is designed to finish as a full-time student in 4 years.

We have semesters, Fall and Spring, for each academic year, with every course worth 1 credit (there was talk about that changing slightly, with science labs getting an additional .5 credits, but I don't remember if that actually happened, or is currently the case). Graduation is 32 credits, so 4 classes per semester (again, lab sciences may vary). There are a handful of core requirements, plus your major requirements, all of which are easy to fulfill in 4 years. I know other schools do J-terms, mini-mesters, or even a quarter/trimester system, but Colgate doesn't.

As someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread, a key part of what makes these schools "elite" isn't just the work you do there, but the kind of person who attends them. We're small schools that attract over-achievers that want to finish in 4 years. The institutional culture there reinforces it; people don't want to stay for longer. Anecdotally, I had a friend who switched majors from Pre-Med to English in the spring of his junior year (which is relatively late, I would say). He chose English because it was the only thing he had enough credits in that he could switch and still graduate in 4 years.

Plus, our schools are really expensive. You don't really want to be paying for more than 4 years.

This isn't exactly a comprehensive answer, but definitely some of the factors at play.

[RichH2]

Not sure Clenz, but pretty sure all PL schools use regular semester scheduling. They are very good students who typically come from families that can support their education. This goes a long way. Also schools are setup to get kids out in 4 years. Grad requirements aren't as confusing as those I've seen at other schools. You take x number of classes within your major, take y number of required courses and have z number of electives. It just works out that most graduate within 4 years u less that have a late change of major, or flunked a bunch of classes.

+1

[clenz]

I can only really speak to Colgate, but I suspect some of the same reasons apply for other PL members.

We don't really have part-time students. A Colgate BA is designed to finish as a full-time student in 4 years.

We have semesters, Fall and Spring, for each academic year, with every course worth 1 credit (there was talk about that changing slightly, with science labs getting an additional .5 credits, but I don't remember if that actually happened, or is currently the case). Graduation is 32 credits, so 4 classes per semester (again, lab sciences may vary). There are a handful of core requirements, plus your major requirements, all of which are easy to fulfill in 4 years. I know other schools do J-terms, mini-mesters, or even a quarter/trimester system, but Colgate doesn't.

As someone mentioned elsewhere in this thread, a key part of what makes these schools "elite" isn't just the work you do there, but the kind of person who attends them. We're small schools that attract over-achievers that want to finish in 4 years. The institutional culture there reinforces it; people don't want to stay for longer. Anecdotally, I had a friend who switched majors from Pre-Med to English in the spring of his junior year (which is relatively late, I would say). He chose English because it was the only thing he had enough credits in that he could switch and still graduate in 4 years.

Plus, our schools are really expensive. You don't really want to be paying for more than 4 years.

This isn't exactly a comprehensive answer, but definitely some of the factors at play.

4 classes a year won't get you through UNIs shortest program in 4 years you're taking 2 summer classes and don't have an internship/can work your internship into a full semester of classes.

To graduate UNI in four years in the program I was in meant averaging 5 classes a semester because of how the internship worked out. That's also assuming you had no minor, no double major, no study abroad, none of that. Oh and

120 credits classes worth 3 credits. Except the handful of 1 or 2 credit classes sprinkled in. Realistically to finish in 4 years with a minor at UNI it would be and average of 5 classes every semester and 2 over each summer. Maybe a quick 4 week J term transfer class from the local CC worth 3 taken over Christmas break.

[Redbird007]

How the **** do you get 80%+ done in four years? Those schools must not take many part time students, or count part time students, or anything along those lines.

I can't fathom how us "lesser schools" have 4 year graduation rates where we do and those that are "vastly superior" are where they are.

It has to be how schedules are set up. I started at a liberal arts private school. The way the block/mini mester/j term work is completely different than a semester set up. It's why when I transferred nothing transferred worth ****. From 7 classes I got to take 4 credit hours.

Where I'm getting my masters is a smaller private school. Was a college until about a decade ago when grad programs were added. They use the block set up as well. I started classes in august and I've already completed two classes. I'll be done with my third in a month. By Christmas I'll have taken 6 or 7 classes. 7 classes is damn near 2 semesters at UNI as a full time student as 4 classes is the "full time" thing. Most UNI students will take 9 classes between August and May. I'll have 6 or 7 (I don't remember exactly) in one semester.

That probably has a lot to do with it.

There is a huge difference in the quality of the PL students (from an aptitude basis and focus/committment, available resources..etc) vs state schools. You get into Ivies/Northwestern/U of Chicago/Standford and their rates are in the low to mid 90's. Opposite end of the spectrum are schools like Chicago State and Southern University with gradulation rates around 15% or lower. Obviously everything in between.

Not that uncommon for some state schools to have 25% of their freshman class transfer/leave within a year of starting college.

[TheValleyRaider]

4 classes a year won't get you through UNIs shortest program in 4 years you're taking 2 summer classes and don't have an internship/can work your internship into a full semester of classes.

To graduate UNI in four years in the program I was in meant averaging 5 classes a semester because of how the internship worked out. That's also assuming you had no minor, no double major, no study abroad, none of that. Oh and

120 credits classes worth 3 credits. Except the handful of 1 or 2 credit classes sprinkled in. Realistically to finish in 4 years with a minor at UNI it would be and average of 5 classes every semester and 2 over each summer. Maybe a quick 4 week J term transfer class from the local CC worth 3 taken over Christmas break.

That's definitely a philosophical difference between institutions. Colgate basically considers all of its classes to be effectively the same. For comparison there are no different "programs" at Colgate. Everyone is on the same track, and everyone gets the same degree (BA)

This also doesn't include extras like internships or work-study. Study abroad is pretty common at Colgate (about 1/3 go abroad), but those are almost all run through the school, and your classes abroad count exactly the same.

For majors, you could double major, or have a major and up to 2 minors. It was also possible to take a 5th class, though that was discouraged. I had a major and minor, and no problem finishing in 4 years.

[RichH2]

Lehigh a bit different than Colgate in structure. University vs College. At undergrad level a myriad of majors across 4 schools plus interdiscinary majors. LU has 2 regular semesters and 2 summer sessions. Thesimilarity across the PL .other than expense:), is the nature of the student body. The University is geared to a 4 yr calendar for most students . Some majors and double majors are geared to a 5 yr calendar. There are as always exceptions as FT pointed out. A late major switch or a few too many Fs. My roommate had to go for an extra semester to make up for courses he had to drop due to illness. More recently a friend had to withdraw part way thru a semester when his Mom died.
Absent individual cases, the vast majority graduate on time.

[PAllen]

Lehigh a bit different than Colgate in structure. University vs College. At undergrad level a myriad of majors across 4 schools plus interdiscinary majors. LU has 2 regular semesters and 2 summer sessions. Thesimilarity across the PL .other than expense:), is the nature of the student body. The University is geared to a 4 yr calendar for most students . Some majors and double majors are geared to a 5 yr calendar. There are as always exceptions as FT pointed out. A late major switch or a few too many Fs. My roommate had to go for an extra semester to make up for courses he had to drop due to illness. More recently a friend had to withdraw part way thru a semester when his Mom died.
Absent individual cases, the vast majority graduate on time.

Lehigh also has those wonderful zero credit required courses for some of it's engineering majors. Three hours a week of class time, homework, projects, exams = zero credits, hey, whatever it takes to keep the standard course load for junior year MEs at or below the 18 credit cap.

[ngineer]

Major cost factor. Now paying for five years instead of four. I don't see it happening.

[ngineer]

Let's say Lafayette had a reciprocal agreement with, say, UPenn's graduate program that allows Lafayette's 5th year football players to apply for graduate school there and take classes there while still competing with Lafayette in football. Maybe make it a network of graduate programs, all superb quality grad programs, that pass Lafayette's academic muster, so that if you get in, you can do this for one semester. Couldn't that work? Would the academic world cave in if this were offered?

The Ivies should have zero say on the matter of reshirting policies because there is no bigger manipulator of the "shirting" rules than Harvard. The Crimson have literally said one of their QBs was off the team "to get his grades in order", but was magically reinstated once the two starters went down in front of him. To me that's ten times worse than actually redshirting.

The Ivies also have a 'system' called "Grey Shirting". At least it is done excessively at Cornell in wrestling, and I suspect it is employed at other schools in various sports "that matter." The "grey shirt" actually "withdraws" from school for a year and spends the time on some kind of "sabbatical". Army and Navy use certain prep schools to "park" freshmen prior to formal entry to the Academy.

[ngineer]

Lehigh has a lot of majors that cross between colleges that are by design five-year programs.

[clenz]

Major cost factor. Now paying for five years instead of four. I don't see it happening.
That....

That.....

Is.....

That.....


Someone else want to point out the issue here in a nicer way than I want too?

Please?

[ngineer]

That....

That.....

Is.....

That.....


Someone else want to point out the issue here in a nicer way than I want too?

Please?

And keep in mind we're talking about room, board, tuition and fees totally roughly $63,000/year.

[crusader11]

Simply a different kind of school and academic curriculum in the PL vs. MVC and most other FCS conferences.

[clenz]

And keep in mind we're talking about room, board, tuition and fees totally roughly $63,000/year.
Are you talking the school paying for it because they are on scholarship?

Also, feed me your bull**** all you want about "WE'RE BETTER STUDENTS THAN YOU". There isn't a school worth $63,000 a year at this point

[crusader11]

I don't think anyone has said that but you, clenz. No need to get defensive here.

[ngineer]

Are you talking the school paying for it because they are on scholarship?

Also, feed me your bull**** all you want about "WE'RE BETTER STUDENTS THAN YOU". There isn't a school worth $63,000 a year at this point

What are you so pissed at? I am merely pointing out the cost of a scholarship. It is simply a lot more expensive to red shirt. I said nothing about the quality of students. The value of the school is in the eye of the beholder. I never raised that point. You did.

[clenz]

What are you so pissed at? I am merely pointing out the cost of a scholarship. It is simply a lot more expensive to red shirt. I said nothing about the quality of students. The value of the school is in the eye of the beholder. I never raised that point. You did.

Again, I ask, are you saying it's too costly for the school to redshirt a student?

[DFW HOYA]

Major cost factor. Now paying for five years instead of four. I don't see it happening.

It's not five years, it's a extra semester.

[clenz]

It's not five years, it's a extra semester.
It's also worth noting that room and board is over $15,000 at Lehigh. Why is room and board $15,000? Live off campus. Get a house with 3 or 4 other people. Pay ~$300 a month in rent rather than the nearly $800 a month it costs for room through tuition.


Also, still haven't heard, are you worried about the cost of a "5th year" for the school because they are paying for a kid to go for 4.5 years?

[walliver]

Wofford and Furman are in the same price range, with 4 year graduation rates of 77 and 81% and both routinely redshirt football players. Wofford has no graduate programs and Furman has minimal graduate programs. It can be done. And both have high graduation rates for athletes. On the other hand, both have had issues with 5th year seniors choosing to go to grad school instead of returning for their 5th year (mostly linemen).

And Wofford is so small that redshirting athletes probably affects the 4 year graduation rate.

It can be done, it's just that the Patriots choose not to do so.

[RichH2]

Again, I ask, are you saying it's too costly for the school to redshirt a student?

More expensive? Over the long run no it really isn't but it does presrnt additional cost as well as roster issues at the onset. PL has a schollie cap of 60 and a roster cap of 90. In any given year most of us bring in 15 to 20 frosh. Realistically most would benfit from a redshirt year. Practically shirting more than 5 or 6 kids would be difficult. As it is depth at most positions is an ongoing issue for PL teams.True WOs are rare and provide little more than practice bodies. Recruited WOs do help but under PL rules any aid they receive counts against the schollie cap. At Lehigh staff usually has around 60 players available. Suffer a surge of injuries as Bucknell and Lafayette the last few years and staff.only has 45 to 50 healthy players.
It is the mix of PL restriction not just redshirting that impacts modifying current rules.

[LeopardBall10]

The main difference, in my experience, between finishing my degree in 4 years and friends of mine at other schools who took 5 was the ability to take the required classes on time. At Lafayette there is never a required class that I couldn't take. Because it is a small school that prides itself on the 4 year graduation, if the class is full, but it is required the prof will let you in. Or they will open another section, etc. Friends of mine at bigger state schools had to stay another full year because required classes for their majors were closed.

It is just the mentality of the liberals arts school. They want to be small enough to help the student.

[ngineer]

It's also worth noting that room and board is over $15,000 at Lehigh. Why is room and board $15,000? Live off campus. Get a house with 3 or 4 other people. Pay ~$300 a month in rent rather than the nearly $800 a month it costs for room through tuition.


Also, still haven't heard, are you worried about the cost of a "5th year" for the school because they are paying for a kid to go for 4.5 years?

Just got a break from work to check the Board. I think the cost of the 5th year or 4.5 years, not sure how that is calculated, is a stated concern I've heard in the past about just one of the arguments against red-shirting. Even reducing room and board by living off campus, still puts the price tag around $50K. There is a strong element among the faculty at most PL schools that abhor athletics and the money spent on them (some schools have this problem more than others, i.e.Lafayette). So making this a reality is a very long stretch.

[ngineer]

More expensive? Over the long run no it really isn't but it does presrnt additional cost as well as roster issues at the onset. PL has a schollie cap of 60 and a roster cap of 90. In any given year most of us bring in 15 to 20 frosh. Realistically most would benfit from a redshirt year. Practically shirting more than 5 or 6 kids would be difficult. As it is depth at most positions is an ongoing issue for PL teams.True WOs are rare and provide little more than practice bodies. Recruited WOs do help but under PL rules any aid they receive counts against the schollie cap. At Lehigh staff usually has around 60 players available. Suffer a surge of injuries as Bucknell and Lafayette the last few years and staff.only has 45 to 50 healthy players.
It is the mix of PL restriction not just redshirting that impacts modifying current rules.

Good points on the caps. I forgot about that impact as well.

[clenz]

Just got a break from work to check the Board. I think the cost of the 5th year or 4.5 years, not sure how that is calculated, is a stated concern I've heard in the past about just one of the arguments against red-shirting. Even reducing room and board by living off campus, still puts the price tag around $50K. There is a strong element among the faculty at most PL schools that abhor athletics and the money spent on them (some schools have this problem more than others, i.e.Lafayette). So making this a reality is a very long stretch.
You aren't answering my question.

Is the cost concern about paying for a kids scholarship for 5 years vs 4 or the concern about a walk on paying 4 years vs 5

[ngineer]

You aren't answering my question.

Is the cost concern about paying for a kids scholarship for 5 years vs 4 or the concern about a walk on paying 4 years vs 5

From my perception, it is the former. I just know our AD has expressed additional budgetary concerns as one of the elements that work against adding red shirting to the PL schools.

[clenz]

From my perception, it is the former. I just know our AD has expressed additional budgetary concerns as one of the elements that work against adding red shirting to the PL schools.
Then that doesn't make sense.

If you're giving 60 scholarships per year whats the financial difference if it's a 5th year senior or freshman? Does a senior have to pay extra versus a freshman? That's a logical fallacy that so many people fall into.

If 60 are given every year it, from a book keeping stand point, doesn't matter to whom those scholarships go to.

60 is 60 no matter how you split those 60

[RichH2]

Dont see a cost diffetential in 5th year. It does not alter # of schollies. The issue for our AD may be how that added time is budgeted by the University.
One other point, I am fairly sure that a player living off campus still receives the same amount of aid to pay their living expenses.

[DFW HOYA]

It is just the mentality of the liberals arts school. They want to be small enough to help the student.

Maybe that's the issue here.

Three PL schools are liberal arts (HC, Laf, Colgate). One is a smaller sized university with a liberal arts tradition (Bucknell). Three are larger universities where professional schools are in the mix (Georgetown, Fordham, Lehigh).

[CFBfan]

Then that doesn't make sense.

If you're giving 60 scholarships per year whats the financial difference if it's a 5th year senior or freshman? Does a senior have to pay extra versus a freshman? That's a logical fallacy that so many people fall into.

If 60 are given every year it, from a book keeping stand point, doesn't matter to whom those scholarships go to.

60 is 60 no matter how you split those 60

sure it dies, it would be one less player in the incoming freshman class!!

[clenz]

sure it dies, it would be one less player in the incoming freshman class!!
For one year and that's it. Here's the thing with red shirting it doesn't hurt depth, it actually creates a better/more experienced/older depth. It's a loop, just as all recruiting is. You create a 5 season loop rather than a 4. You build recruiting classes around roster make up in a 4 year loop. It's no different in a 5 year loop.

Looking at UNI, for example, who red-shirts nearly everyone - there is maybe 2 or 3 true freshman that play most years but seem to have more this year - the break down is

31 true freshman - these are currently being split between redshirt and playing. The split is maybe about 40-60 play-RS this year
13 redshirt freshman
20 sophomores (UNI no longer breaks out RS or not after freshman year)
14 juniors
19 seionrs

That means, not including the incoming class next years roster would be

14 redshirt freshman
17 sophomores
20 juniors
14 seniors

That split isn't that difficult when redshirting. Sure, it's a different puzzle but it's actually easier to have depth with being able to redshirt than not redshirting.

[RichH2]

For one year and that's it. Here's the thing with red shirting it doesn't hurt depth, it actually creates a better/more experienced/older depth. It's a loop, just as all recruiting is. You create a 5 season loop rather than a 4. You build recruiting classes around roster make up in a 4 year loop. It's no different in a 5 year loop.

Looking at UNI, for example, who red-shirts nearly everyone - there is maybe 2 or 3 true freshman that play most years but seem to have more this year - the break down is

31 true freshman - these are currently being split between redshirt and playing. The split is maybe about 40-60 play-RS this year
13 redshirt freshman
20 sophomores (UNI no longer breaks out RS or not after freshman year)
14 juniors
19 seionrs

That means, not including the incoming class next years roster would be

14 redshirt freshman
17 sophomores
20 juniors
14 seniors

That split isn't that difficult when redshirting. Sure, it's a different puzzle but it's actually easier to have depth with being able to redshirt than not redshirting.

Makes a lot of sense. Oce transitioned into redshirting coahes will have older more experienced depth. A dream for us. PL caps pretty much preclude bringing in 31 frosh in most any year. While budgeting may present some short term issues, we still face academia's opposition to any more arrempts to sever our Ivy Lite heritage. That will be a long term struggle. If we win it will be in small gradual increments.

[Doc QB]

For one year and that's it. Here's the thing with red shirting it doesn't hurt depth, it actually creates a better/more experienced/older depth. It's a loop, just as all recruiting is. You create a 5 season loop rather than a 4. You build recruiting classes around roster make up in a 4 year loop. It's no different in a 5 year loop.

Looking at UNI, for example, who red-shirts nearly everyone - there is maybe 2 or 3 true freshman that play most years but seem to have more this year - the break down is

31 true freshman - these are currently being split between redshirt and playing. The split is maybe about 40-60 play-RS this year
13 redshirt freshman
20 sophomores (UNI no longer breaks out RS or not after freshman year)
14 juniors
19 seionrs

That means, not including the incoming class next years roster would be

14 redshirt freshman
17 sophomores
20 juniors
14 seniors

That split isn't that difficult when redshirting. Sure, it's a different puzzle but it's actually easier to have depth with being able to redshirt than not redshirting.

Clenz, that is 65 without incoming frosh...my assumption is there are a number of WO's and half scholarship guys, correct?

and I as with you on the question u posed but knew the answer already a few posts back...it does not cost more to have fifth yr players, 60 is 60. If u can redshirt, your classes are smaller, cycle changes to five years, and not all kids will stay five or have a fifth to burn. You are correct, it ain't hard to manage, tons of schools do it.

[clenz]

Clenz, that is 65 without incoming frosh...my assumption is there are a number of WO's and half scholarship guys, correct?

and I as with you on the question u posed but knew the answer already a few posts back...it does not cost more to have fifth yr players, 60 is 60. If u can redshirt, your classes are smaller, cycle changes to five years, and not all kids will stay five or have a fifth to burn. You are correct, it ain't hard to manage, tons of schools do it.

Of those 65 I'm sure there is a number of walk inside and partials. 63 scholarships can be spread over 85 players. I'm sure it's mostly partials with select full rides (mostly out of state kids).

So even if your roster is limited to 90, or UNIs on this case, that still allows for a 25 person signing class. Plus there are likely walk ons that won't be back. Realistically there is still room for roughly 30 incoming freshman or transfers.

I'm just trying to understand the money excuse. I get people pay a billion dollars a year to go to your schools. It's not costing your school extra money to have a 5th year player on scholarship if that scholarship was going to be given to a freshman anyway. 60 is 60 is 60 no matter how you split it or apply it. I would have assumed those vastly superior students paying that much for that superior education wouldnt have trouble understanding that. If that's the line your AD is selling you as well then he's not that good at running athletic budgets is my guess.

I guess, yes, the very first year or two might cause smaller freshman classes as extra players are redshirted based on a roster structure not
built on redshirting. As was said though, it's not hard to redshirt 15 or more players per year and recruit for that system. It's done at every level. There are D3 schools that redshirt, and 99% of those are private liberal arts colleges.

[van]

wonder how many walk ons a school like UNI gets, seems like only a few walk on at Lehigh

[RichH2]

wonder how many walk ons a school like UNI gets, seems like only a few walk on at Lehigh

We get 1 or 2 each year. PL allows 3 true WOs above the roster cap whose aid ,if any, does not count against the schollie cap. They cannot be recruited. LU has a few recruited WOs who do count vs the 90 cap.

[clenz]

We get 1 or 2 each year. PL allows 3 true WOs above the roster cap whose aid ,if any, does not count against the schollie cap. They cannot be recruited. LU has a few recruited WOs who do count vs the 90 cap.

Well you can offer 60 equivalencies to 85 players. If you are capped at 90 players it depends on how you face your scholarships out. Technically you could have 30.

If oh are taking try walk on, not recruited out of high school and just showing up going "I wanna play" the answer is very, very, low.

If you are taking kids that were recruited but get no scholarship money we are probably at about 15. 85 players can get money. There's 97 players in this year's roster. Scholarship amounts have changed a bit, in state vs out of state, FCOA, etc... but if there is more than 15 or 20 players getting zero money I'd be slightly shocked.

[RichH2]

Well you can offer 60 equivalencies to 85 players. If you are capped at 90 players it depends on how you face your scholarships out. Technically you could have 30.

If oh are taking try walk on, not recruited out of high school and just showing up going "I wanna play" the answer is very, very, low.

If you are taking kids that were recruited but get no scholarship money we are probably at about 15. 85 players can get money. There's 97 players in this year's roster. Scholarship amounts have changed a bit, in state vs out of state, FCOA, etc... but if there is more than 15 or 20 players getting zero money I'd be slightly shocked.

Technically we could once in a great while. 1/2 rides dont usually get you difference makers. Still need those full rides.
To me redshirting makes competitive sense without extra cost. If PL Presidents can be convinced for a gradual modification of current rules, I expect schollie cap to go to 63 first. Reshirting will remain as is for the immediate future. Of course if Nova comes around rule could change rather quickly :)