"The Split": When and how much $$

[clenz]

We have infinite threads here it seems like about FBS/FCS moves and all of that. I thought one thread to keep it tidy would be best for generic topics, but more team specific (see Idaho) is best for it's own thread

We all know "The Split" has been rumored for years. The issue has always been the G5 and how much the P5 can squeeze them out of until enough is enough and the breaking point hits. This seems like a fitting story to kick this thread discussion off with.

Breaking as of this morning


CONFERENCE USA TO SEE BIG DROP IN MEDIA RIGHTS






Perhaps it’s a sign of the times where networks are looking to cut costs where they can, or maybe it’s the fact that Conference USA doesn’t have the marquee schools that it did when it signed it’s last media rights deal, but as Sports Business Journal reports, the league will be lower payments from CBS and ESPN when a new contract is signed. A deal hasn’t announced as of yet, but is expected soon. The conference which had seen $7 million annual from its network partners will see significantly less revenue in the new contract, an estimated $1 million per year which will be a hit for school athletic departments.


Fox which had been part of a C-USA triumvirate with CBS and ESPN will not be part of the new contract according to SBJ. As the conference lost Central Florida, Houston and Memphis and replaced them with Louisiana Tech, Middle Tennessee and Western Kentucky, the league became less attractive for television. And with Fox opting out of the new rights deal, it means the member schools with see less money.


Does this mean a sign of things to come for sports rights? Maybe not, but with C-USA seeing schools in smaller markets than in years past, it pays the price in the short-term. In addition, with the networks locked into expensive long-term deals with the major sports leagues like MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL, some of the smaller properties are seeing lower deals as ESPN and Fox which were once in an arms race, are now cutting back on spending.


But with Conference USA seeing lower rights fees and other smaller conferences perhaps seeing them as well, the big spending days by the networks may be over. And if that’s the case, the smaller conferences may have to be creative in finding new revenues to make up for the lost media rights fees.


http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/conference-usa-to-see-big-drop-in-media-rights.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=conference-usa-to-see-big-drop-in-media-rights

That means each school goes from roughly $500K to about $72k in media money each year.

How long will G5 conferences be able to keep that kind of spending up with that little cash coming in?

[RootinFerDukes]

In va, they passed legislation mandating public universities meet certain student athletic fee limits. Odu is being forced to comply with a max of 55% subsidized as a G5 fbs school. JMU only has to drop to 70% as Fcs.
That 72k is barely more than 0k when you have a budget of 30-40M and growing. Barring other revenue streams suddenly coming in by the 10s of millions, the Monarchs are in a tight spot.
You can expect more G5 trying to take on more body bag games to help pay the bills.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow, I haven't read the whole article, I will soon, but there seems to be a lot of things sort of coming together from all directions when you look at costs going up and revenues coming down.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's an excellent point, ODU's relatively hasty decision to jettison the CAA for C-USA is looking worse by the hour. They came to the decision to head to C-USA is something like 10 weeks. Since then, VA's awful legislation + C-USA's dwindling status in the FBS world has been disastrous for ODU.

[DFW HOYA]

That means each school goes from roughly $500K to about $72k in media money each year.

Choices are critical. TCU went from $1.64 million in the MWC to $12 million in the Big 12. Butler went from $100K in media money to $4.2 million in the Big East.

But realistically, C-USA gets what the market demands, which isn't much. It's the old Sun Belt and that wasn't a compelling conference either.

[unknown3]

ODU is expanding their stadium, has home and home deals signed with North Carolina, Virginia Tech, ECU, Wake Forest and Virginia. I'm pretty sure they'll get over it. The gate money they'll make from hosting 4 ACC teams in their own stadium will suffice i'm sure.

[clenz]

That's an excellent point, ODU's relatively hasty decision to jettison the CAA for C-USA is looking worse by the hour. They came to the decision to head to C-USA is something like 10 weeks. Since then, VA's awful legislation + C-USA's dwindling status in the FBS world has been disastrous for ODU.
I admit to not knowing VAs law on this, but why is limiting how much can be subsidized awful?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

People are reading way too much into this and aren't looking at the bigger picture. The MAC's television deal went up last year, and the Sun Belt's is expected to go up when it is renegotiated in a couple of years.

The real reason CUSA's TV deal is tanking is because they lost Houston, East Carolina, Tulsa, Memphis, and Central Florida (all were in CUSA when the current deal was in place) and thought it would be a good idea to replace them with North Texas, UTSA, Charlotte, FAU, and FIU.

Don't expect this to put most G5 teams in a financial crunch, either. In Georgia Southern's case the lost revenue from weekday games is probably greater than our share of the TV payouts. The G5 TV deals aren't that substantial so there isn't that far to fall. CUSA is a special case because of their idiotic decision to base their expansion off of media markets instead of acquiring teams with actual fan bases and a history of winning.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

People are reading way too much into this and aren't looking at the bigger picture. The MAC's television deal went up last year, and the Sun Belt's is expected to go up when it is renegotiated in a couple of years.

The real reason CUSA's TV deal is tanking is because they lost Houston, East Carolina, Tulsa, Memphis, and Central Florida (all were in CUSA when the current deal was in place) and thought it would be a good idea to replace them with North Texas, UTSA, Charlotte, FAU, and FIU.

Don't expect this to put most G5 teams in a financial crunch, either. In Georgia Southern's case the lost revenue from weekday games is probably greater than our share of the TV payouts. The G5 TV deals aren't that substantial so there isn't that far to fall. CUSA is a special case because of their idiotic decision to base their expansion off of media markets instead of acquiring teams with actual fan bases and a history of winning.

I think that is a pretty good analysis of this particular case for sure but when coupled with the ESPN articles showing how they are trying to retract some of the money it has to be a bit troubling. I don't know that it will be really big cuts but it does seem like it is gonna be a downward trend for a while.

[kdinva]

ODU's relatively hasty decision to jettison the CAA for C-USA is looking worse by the hour. They came to the decision to head to C-USA is something like 10 weeks..

I heard they "jumped" to be ECU's travel partner for everything........so much for that....

[IBleedYellow]

In va, they passed legislation mandating public universities meet certain student athletic fee limits. Odu is being forced to comply with a max of 55% subsidized as a G5 fbs school. JMU only has to drop to 70% as Fcs.
That 72k is barely more than 0k when you have a budget of 30-40M and growing. Barring other revenue streams suddenly coming in by the 10s of millions, the Monarchs are in a tight spot.
You can expect more G5 trying to take on more body bag games to help pay the bills.

You guys have a 70% subsidy? Holy frack.

[344Johnson]

ODU is expanding their stadium, has home and home deals signed with North Carolina, Virginia Tech, ECU, Wake Forest and Virginia. I'm pretty sure they'll get over it. The gate money they'll make from hosting 4 ACC teams in their own stadium will suffice i'm sure.

Yeah, ODU is one I would not be too worried about.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, ODU is one I would not be too worried about.

What happens when UNC, Va, Tech and the ACC stops returning ODU's phone calls? How do they make payroll?

[344Johnson]

What happens when UNC, Va, Tech and the ACC stops returning ODU's phone calls? How do they make payroll?

Why would they quit scheduling ODU? P5 schools usually have 1 or 2 of these games scheduled every year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why would they quit scheduling ODU? P5 schools usually have 1 or 2 of these games scheduled every year.

1. Cheaper FCS games (1 per year)
2. More games vs. Big 10, Pac 12 for "schedule strength" for CFP
3. VA, Tech may want to actively harm ODU's recruiting if they feel ODU is making inroads in recruiting

[344Johnson]

1. Cheaper FCS games (1 per year)
2. More games vs. Big 10, Pac 12 for "schedule strength" for CFP
3. VA, Tech may want to actively harm ODU's recruiting if they feel ODU is making inroads in recruiting

Good thing they have 3-4 OOC games. Maybe 1-2 against P5, 1 FCS if they want, 1 G5(ODU). Va Tech is one school. Plenty of other FBS teams have agreed to deals with them.

[clenz]

Interesting tweet from Dennis Dodd...


http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22396&stc=1

[Go Green]

The real reason CUSA's TV deal is tanking is because they lost Houston, East Carolina, Tulsa, Memphis, and Central Florida (all were in CUSA when the current deal was in place) and thought it would be a good idea to replace them with North Texas, UTSA, Charlotte, FAU, and FIU.



Not really sure CUSA had a lot of good alternatives that made geographic sense....

[RootinFerDukes]

You guys have a 70% subsidy? Holy frack.

It's 80ish percent last I checked. Defenders claim different states report their athletic budgets differently so they're able to "hide" athletic expenses elsewhere, while in va, if it even comes within a mile of athletics, it's put on the budget.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

That's an excellent point, ODU's relatively hasty decision to jettison the CAA for C-USA is looking worse by the hour. They came to the decision to head to C-USA is something like 10 weeks. Since then, VA's awful legislation + C-USA's dwindling status in the FBS world has been disastrous for ODU.

What makes the legislation 'awful'?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

ODU is expanding their stadium, has home and home deals signed with North Carolina, Virginia Tech, ECU, Wake Forest and Virginia. I'm pretty sure they'll get over it. The gate money they'll make from hosting 4 ACC teams in their own stadium will suffice i'm sure.

They did not proceed with the stadium expansion and these are not 'home and home' deals. They are surrendering some of their 'bodybag' payout to get a 2 for 1.

As others have mentioned, ODU athletics is headed down a very dangerous road.

[RootinFerDukes]

What happens when UNC, Va, Tech and the ACC stops returning ODU's phone calls? How do they make payroll?

They're having trouble getting funding for their stadium approved and may have to settle for just upgrading their current very old stadium.
Many of the P5 games, who are only going there to play in front of recruits in a big market, were told a bigger stadium would be in place by the time they came to town.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

It's 80ish percent last I checked. Defenders claim different states report their athletic budgets differently so they're able to "hide" athletic expenses elsewhere, while in va, if it even comes within a mile of athletics, it's put on the budget.

The income statement for the athletic department is public record, right? Can you link?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

They're having trouble getting funding for their stadium approved and may have to settle for just upgrading their current very old stadium.
Many of the P5 games, who are only going there to play in front of recruits in a big market, were told a bigger stadium would be in place by the time they came to town.

Correct on all counts. Here's a link to last week's news.

http://www.13newsnow.com/news/local/plans-to-be-submitted-for-new-odu-football-stadium/106775155

[RootinFerDukes]

The income statement for the athletic department is public record, right? Can you link?

I don't know if I'd ever seen a publicly available athletic budget, but I've never looked too hard. I would think our fans would've dissected every line item by now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What makes the legislation 'awful'?

This sums up my feelings on it.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/04/virginia-bill-to-micromanage-athletics.html

[ursus arctos horribilis]

This sums up my feelings on it.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/04/virginia-bill-to-micromanage-athletics.html

LFN, this is exactly what pisses people off man. If it is what you are intending to do then alright but another fan asked you a question HERE and you reply with a link to your blog. Seems kind of ****ty man. Give a little bit of it to let people decide if they want to go.


This article from the Virginian Pilot-Online might have escaped your attention, but it could be something that has deep-ranging effects on collegiate athletics.

While the bill only affects schools in Virginia, if other state houses take up similar legislation across the country, it could deeply impact and potentially hurt smaller public universities across the country.

The article, written by Harry Minium, says it like this:
Read more at http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/04/virginia-bill-to-micromanage-athletics.html#QJHjCGggXub1HBJe.99

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, this is exactly what pisses people off man. If it is what you are intending to do then alright but another fan asked you a question HERE and you reply with a link to your blog. Seems kind of ****ty man. Give a little bit of it to let people decide if they want to go.

I can either spend 1/2 hour crafting a reply filtering out the 1,000+ word piece I've already written, or I can take 2 seconds and link to the piece I wrote more than a year ago. It's not like I don't already spend a lot of time and energy expressing my opinion on this (and other) threads.

Fair point on adding a snippet.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

This sums up my feelings on it.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/04/virginia-bill-to-micromanage-athletics.html

I didn't read your full article but i guess i turn the question to you. How much additional tuition should i have to pay for my kid to go get an education at JMU to subsidize their athletics programs? $500? $1000? $5000? Unlimited, just because we like sports?

What if my kid doesn't like sports? Can we opt out?

[Pinnum]

The income statement for the athletic department is public record, right? Can you link?

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/ODUNCAA15.pdf

This year the tax on enrolled students only accounted for $28.5MM (65%) of ODU's athletic revenue....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I didn't read your full article but i guess i turn the question to you. How much additional tuition should i have to pay for my kid to go get an education at JMU to subsidize their athletics programs? $500? $1000? $5000? Unlimited, just because we like sports?

What if my kid doesn't like sports? Can we opt out?

When you pay your taxes to the government, can you say, "I like when you spend money on farm subsidies, but I don't like it going to the B-2 bomber, so don't put my tax money there, thanks?" Or when you go to McDonalds, can you specify that your money go to meat research rather than bun research?

If your kid doesn't like sports, the answer is you can opt to go to a school that doesn't offer them, not that the school should give students the option to pay some tuition and not pay other tuition. Less radically, if your research tells you that JMU pays too much money for sports, you can always choose to go to a cheaper school. JMU does run the risk of having their subsidy so high that they price themselves out of the market, but that should be JMU's decision, not the state of Virginia's, or tuition payers', decision.

[Bisonoline]

The "Split" has already happened when the NCAA gave the P5 autonomy. All the P5 is going to do is try to distance it self from the rest without incurring any lawsuits in regards to revenue and the playoffs. If there is any realignment it will happen in the lower ranks like the G5 and the upper ranks of the FCS.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

If your kid doesn't like sports, the answer is you can opt to go to a school that doesn't offer them, not that the school should give students the option to pay some tuition and not pay other tuition. Less radically, if your research tells you that JMU pays too much money for sports, you can always choose to go to a cheaper school. JMU does run the risk of having their subsidy so high that they price themselves out of the market, but that should be JMU's decision, not the state of Virginia's, or tuition payers', decision.

Suppose JMU is the only school in the commonwealth that has a relevant major that my kid wants? I should still have to pay an uncapped amount of money for an athletics program that i'm not interested in?

And JMU gets to make decisions but they are a State University. You better believe that that state and the taxpayers have a right to say how the University is run.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

http://www.apa.virginia.gov/reports/ODUNCAA15.pdf

This year the tax on enrolled students only accounted for $28.5MM (65%) of ODU's athletic revenue....

That's a sarcastic 'only', right? Hah!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I can either spend 1/2 hour crafting a reply filtering out the 1,000+ word piece I've already written, or I can take 2 seconds and link to the piece I wrote more than a year ago. It's not like I don't already spend a lot of time and energy expressing my opinion on this (and other) threads.

Fair point on adding a snippet.

That last line is the whole point brother. I understand that it is unnecessary to go through all that work to reply, but taking a piece to sort of give the direction as an answer to a contemporary here asking you a question should certainly be easy enough and would be a kindness to your conversation partner...as well as those of interested in your discussion.

Believe me, I am trying to help you, and the rest of us, not hurt you. Anytime someone posts just a link I automatically think to myself "this SOB has zero respect for me trying to play me like this!" It's just annoying to a lot of end users so if we take that part away it is all better all around I think.xthumbsupx

[RootinFerDukes]

I didn't read your full article but i guess i turn the question to you. How much additional tuition should i have to pay for my kid to go get an education at JMU to subsidize their athletics programs? $500? $1000? $5000? Unlimited, just because we like sports?

What if my kid doesn't like sports? Can we opt out?
College isn't a la carte. People that don't go to the gym shouldn't have their fees go to that facility. People who don't eat on campus shouldn't have fees funding dining facilities. Students whose majors don't have as high of an average starting salary shouldn't have to pay the same tuition per credit hour as another major. You could go on and on.
At a private university, they're paying a higher price tag overall. You as the education consumer can look at the bottom line and if it's too much for you, you can choose to go elsewhere, or just don't go to college.

I'm not standing up for high subsidies, but I'm also tired of hearing people moan and groan about wanting everything about college at an a la carte pricing model.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

At a private university, they're paying a higher price tag overall. You as the education consumer can look at the bottom line and if it's too much for you, you can choose to go elsewhere, or just don't go to college.

Correct. This is largely why there is a state sponsored educational system.

What is the per student athletics subsidy at JMU, roughly $1500- $2k per head per academic year?

[Pinnum]

College isn't a la carte. People that don't go to the gym shouldn't have their fees go to that facility. People who don't eat on campus shouldn't have fees funding dining facilities. You could go on and on.
At a private university, they're paying a higher price tag overall. You as the education consumer can look at the bottom line and if it's too much for you, you can choose to go elsewhere, or just don't go to college.

I'm not standing up for high subsidies, but I'm also tired of hearing people moan and groan about wanting everything about college at an a la carte pricing model.

Someone that financed their education in order to be able to attend ODU and graduated on time in four years would pay nearly $100 a month in student loan payment for ten years just to cover their portion of the athletic subsidy that came from their fees. Think about that for a moment.

No one is arguing that everything should be a la carte or that athletics should not have any funding but you can't complain about the cost of educations and say that schools need more resources from the taxpayers while you're putting such a burden on the students, many of whom have no interest in the football program.

[RootinFerDukes]

If anyone still cares, JMU is also the sixth cheapest public university in virginia out of fifteen four year public universities. (we used to be fifth, I don't know who fell below us). ODU and JMU's subsidies are high, but we're still one of the cheaper options in the state.

http://www.schev.edu/Reportstats/TuitionFees/2015-16TFreport.pdf

page 13

[RootinFerDukes]

Someone that financed their education in order to be able to attend ODU and graduated on time in four years would pay nearly $100 a month in student loan payment for ten years just to cover their portion of the athletic subsidy that came from their fees. Think about that for a moment.

No one is arguing that everything should be a la carte or that athletics should not have any funding but you can't complain about the cost of educations and say that schools need more resources from the taxpayers while you're putting such a burden on the students, many of whom have no interest in the football program.

I don't disagree. My wife and I are currently paying a suffocating amount of student loan debt that will take another six or seven years to pay off. It's almost as much as the mortgage and daycare.
The bottom line is what should matter to a tuition conscious student though and some schools may have less subsidy, but a higher overall price. They'll still be paying the high student loan whether that money went to athletics or more tutors in the library.

[RootinFerDukes]

Correct. This is largely why there is a state sponsored educational system.

What is the per student athletics subsidy at JMU, roughly $1500- $2k per head per academic year?

According to the USA Today listing for 2014-2015, our overall subsidy was just over 35M. We have just over 21k students as of 2015-2016. That's $1,688/student/year.
We all know we're very much overspending for FCS and some are hoping the VA legislation forces them to cut some of the budget and thus some of the student fees. We really can't afford to full fund all of our sports. That's a pipe dream for the P5 programs.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

According to the USA Today listing for 2014-2015, our overall subsidy was just over 35M. We have just over 21k students as of 2015-2016. That's $1,688/student/year.
We all know we're very much overspending for FCS and some are hoping the VA legislation forces them to cut some of the budget and thus some of the student fees. We really can't afford to full fund all of our sports. That's a pipe dream for the P5 programs.

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to athletic subsidies nor am I am big fan of government intrusion. I am just perplexed that another poster would call the Virginia legislation to rein in subsidies as "awful" and write a new verse of the Bible about it, in the process.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

This is what SBC schools have been looking for. When Middle Tenn and Western KY went to CUSA, they were "warned" that the new makeup wouldn't get the respect of the "old" CUSA. ULL and Ark St in the West and GS and App in the East challenges their top.

As for revenue, I can report that our revenues are up and we made a profit last year. Out of 5 games that ESPN broadcasts SBC they chose us for 3 of them...how much does a 3 hour commercial on National TV cost?

There are a lot of G5s that will have trouble. How lucky are Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Rutgers, and other also-rans in P5? P5 includes the 20 or so schools who average more than 70k in attendance followed by a huge drop down to the 40s and 30s. If you think your School can grow it's attendance to the 40s, then FBS will pay off. Otherwise, FCS is a great place to be.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I would really think CUSA would have a bigger contract than SBC when this settles so in that regard I would think the move is probably better using your points of reference in that post as good reasons and so forth.

Wouldn't you think GSU and App would abandon shp immediately if the CUSA came calling?

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I would really think CUSA would have a bigger contract than SBC when this settles so in that regard I would think the move is probably better using your points of reference in that post as good reasons and so forth.

Wouldn't you think GSU and App would abandon shp immediately if the CUSA came calling?

That's the conventional wisdom. I'm not sure I agree. The formula for New Years Bowl is 12-0 or 11-1. Being in a less competitive conference helps and we have favorable ratings which makes us an attractive G5 team for ESPN to feature. Remember that FCS teams have to prove it on the field and FBS is a popularity/beauty contest to get an opportunity to be on the field.

One thing I predicted would happen has begun. When Troy, Middle Tenn, WKU (not so much) and others moved up, they became good recruiters in Georgia. Georgia Southern puts a serious dent in that resource.

[Pinnum]

I don't disagree. My wife and I are currently paying a suffocating amount of student loan debt that will take another six or seven years to pay off. It's almost as much as the mortgage and daycare.
The bottom line is what should matter to a tuition conscious student though and some schools may have less subsidy, but a higher overall price. They'll still be paying the high student loan whether that money went to athletics or more tutors in the library.

That's the spirit! If we are going to strap students with debt anyway then it might as well be used to cover things like ensuring football players don't have to worry about any expenses while they attend the same school.

Sure FCS is better than G5 for the general student in most cases but even so FCS may still be a waste of resources. Virginia's bill was a rationale response to a legitimate issue taxpayers and families of students at the public schools have with how resources are allocated.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I would really think CUSA would have a bigger contract than SBC when this settles so in that regard I would think the move is probably better using your points of reference in that post as good reasons and so forth.

Wouldn't you think GSU and App would abandon shp immediately if the CUSA came calling?

Don't think it's an obvious decision. CUSA's bowl tie-ins are farther away from Georgia Southern and App State. Also, the Sun Belt had the second-highest G5 per-school profit from the postseason even though we finished last, and that's with lame duck members Idaho and New Mexico State in it.

CUSA might be perceived as the higher conference, but when it comes to hard, objective numbers it seems like a downward move.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UVa tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

28,484 in-state / 58,950 out-of-state

JMU tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

24,500 in-state / 39,698 out-of-state

Guess who, in the infinite wisdom of the state legislature of Virginia, needs to "rein in" their athletics program and is spending too much?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

UVa tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

28,484 in-state / 58,950 out-of-state

JMU tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

24,500 in-state / 39,698 out-of-state

Guess who, in the infinite wisdom of the state legislature of Virginia, needs to "rein in" their athletics program and is spending too much?

With all due respect to JMU, which is a really nice school, you're comparing it against one of the Top 10 schools in the country.

That Top 10 school also had to play within the bounds of the " awful" legislation on athletics subsidy, I might add.

[walliver]

There is no imminent "split" coming IMHO.
What killed Idaho (and may kill NMSU) was geography and lack of true peers. If one or both had been invited to the MWC, they would manage to struggle along in FBS.

The MAC is a geographically compact conference (other than Buffalo). Moving to FCS would have few cost savings. As long as these schools can avoid inflation of their costs, they will be OK.
The SBC when Idaho and NMSU leave will still be a spread-out conference. But, by creating divisions would have two relatively compact divisions, and eastern division resembling SoCon geography, and a western division resembling Southland geography. By limiting interdivision contests, especially in non-revenue sports, costs can be controlled, and moving to FCS would not be necessary.
The Mountain West is made up primarily of established FBS teams and also has a geographic niche.

As for the others, the sole benefit of being in C-USA is to be prepared to accept an AAC invitation.
The sole benefit of the AAC is to be prepared to accept a B-12 or ACC invitation.
These schools will continue hemorrhaging money hoping for a big payoff at the end.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With all due respect to JMU, which is a really nice school, you're comparing it against one of the Top 10 schools in the country.

That Top 10 school also had to play within the bounds of the " awful" legislation on athletics subsidy, I might add.

The point is that UVa (and Tech) got a "pass" because they are a member of a P5 conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They also subsidized athletics by $13M while JMU did by $35M last fiscal year.

I wonder how much more exposure UVA received from their Athletics Dept than JMU did during the same period. Thoughts?

So why not pass a bill forcing that the state subsidize $0 for UVa and Tech athletics? They clearly don't need the help, because their "expousre" is already so "great", and it would theoretically benefit more people and ostensibly lower more people's tuition. If lowering tuition is really what it's about.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

The point is that UVa (and Tech) got a "pass" because they are a member of a P5 conference.

UVA subsidized their AD by $13M last FY while JMU did by $35M during the same period.

If I need to tell you who got a better bang for their bucks, I'll assume you didn't study business. Or logic.

[aceinthehole]

There is no imminent "split" coming IMHO.
What killed Idaho (and may kill NMSU) was geography and lack of true peers. If one or both had been invited to the MWC, they would manage to struggle along in FBS.

The MAC is a geographically compact conference (other than Buffalo). Moving to FCS would have few cost savings. As long as these schools can avoid inflation of their costs, they will be OK.
The SBC when Idaho and NMSU leave will still be a spread-out conference. But, by creating divisions would have two relatively compact divisions, and eastern division resembling SoCon geography, and a western division resembling Southland geography. By limiting interdivision contests, especially in non-revenue sports, costs can be controlled, and moving to FCS would not be necessary.

The Mountain West is made up primarily of established FBS teams and also has a geographic niche.

As for the others, the sole benefit of being in C-USA is to be prepared to accept an AAC invitation.
The sole benefit of the AAC is to be prepared to accept a B-12 or ACC invitation.
These schools will continue hemorrhaging money hoping for a big payoff at the end.

+100%

Idaho and NMSU are hurt by geography more than anything - they are outliers for conference membership and can't get many HOME game.

UMass is in a tough spot now, but can hold out for a few more seasons waiting for the next opportunity. The Minutemen aren't having the same problem as the Vandals scheduling home games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UVA subsidized their AD by $13M last FY while JMU did by $35M during the same period.

If I need to tell you who got a better bang for their bucks, I'll assume you didn't study business. Or logic.

Yeah, that $20 MM a year coming from the ACC had nothing to do with that.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Yeah, that $20 MM a year coming from the ACC had nothing to do with that.

Straw man argument. They get $20m from the ACC. And a whole bunch of exposure in the process.

JMU has negligible tv exposure (or revenue).

I don't think I can help you here any more. I'm sorry.

[Pinnum]

UVa tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

28,484 in-state / 58,950 out-of-state

JMU tuition costs, full cost of attendance:

24,500 in-state / 39,698 out-of-state

Guess who, in the infinite wisdom of the state legislature of Virginia, needs to "rein in" their athletics program and is spending too much?

That's because people who make decisions often have actual information rather than a sticker price they googled.

For instance, UVA and JMU are nearly identical in size (both about 20k students) and while UVA's students were forced to contribute $13.5MM to their athletic program JMU's students contributed were forced to contribute $35.2M.

Since this is a football forum, we can talk about revenue. JMU's football team generated $3.8MM while UVA's generated $24.5MM. Of course you'll counter that UVA spends more. And that is fair. But they don't spend more than they take in. JMU's football program lost $4.4MM compared to UVA's surplus of $6.4MM.

It is possible that UVA students want more of their tuition to go to the football program. After all, they continue to direct money to the program even when it is no longer compulsory.

But since you seem to think the issue is the price students are being charged to attend the schools then we can examine those figures as well. UVA cost students an average of $14k in 2014-15 while JMU cost students $14.7k a year. You're caught up in the fallacy of the sticker price. Only a small percentage of students pay full freight at schools. These are the students with the most options already available to them so they can elect to attend a Richmond, Longwood, George Mason, Lehigh, Johns Hopkins or Vassar if they don't like how UVA is operated.

So, yes, there is reason to think the state legislature has an interest in how these state institutions are being operated and I think it is fair to say that there is reason to be less critical of UVA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Straw man argument. They get $20m from the ACC. And a whole bunch of exposure in the process.

JMU has negligible tv exposure (or revenue).

I don't think I can help you here any more. I'm sorry.

After the two straw man arguments of "bang for buck" and "exposure" you've floated up here, that's pretty rich.

The point is, why does the bill exist? To lower tuition? Not if the two biggest state schools are unaffected. To lower athletics spending? Exactly how is the state hurt if JMU chooses to spend a larger percentage (note: NOT a larger net number) of their institutional money on athletics? Again, if you wanted to truly rein in athletics spending, you'd go up against the two largest gross spenders on athletics in the state: UVa and Tech.

Of course, the bill doesn't go after UVa and Tech at all, and instead targets schools like JMU and Longwood, by moralizing and telling them what to do with their money - even when their tuition is less than UVa's.

[clenz]

Yeah, that $20 MM a year coming from the ACC had nothing to do with that.
Well, then JMU needs to figure out how to not have a 44 million dollar athletic department in the ****ing FCS and CAA. That's 12 million dollars more than the next highest budget.

JMU funds 8 million of their 44 million dollar budget.

Holy ****ing ****.

I'd be throwing a god damn fit about that too.

UVa found a way to subsidize their programs using less state money. JMU needs to spend less or find a new source of money

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UVa found a way to subsidize their programs using less state money. JMU needs to spend less or find a new source of money

UVa and Tech did - they found a conference decades ago that eventually was going to spew them $20 MM a year. They also lucked into North Carolina and Duke's NCAA men's basketball championships, which also pay them craploads of money.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

After the two straw man arguments of "bang for buck" and "exposure" you've floated up here, that's pretty rich.

The point is, why does the bill exist? To lower tuition? Not if the two biggest state schools are unaffected. To lower athletics spending? Exactly how is the state hurt if JMU chooses to spend a larger percentage (note: NOT a larger net number) of their institutional money on athletics? Again, if you wanted to truly rein in athletics spending, you'd go up against the two largest gross spenders on athletics in the state: UVa and Tech.

Of course, the bill doesn't go after UVa and Tech at all, and instead targets schools like JMU and Longwood, by moralizing and telling them what to do with their money - even when their tuition is less than UVa's.

The point of the bill is to reduce needless, required spending by student and families on athletics departments that don't improve the school's Income Statement. End of story.

[clenz]

They did - they found a conference decades ago that was going to spew them $20 MM a year.
Yup.

Iowa State happened to be in the same conference as Texas decades ago.
Iowa with Michigan and Ohio State

Big ****ing deal.

I guess you also are okay with racking up 15,000+ in credit card debt and then setting up a go fund me to get others to to pay it because others have more income and spend like that so why shouldn't you be able too?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where's the article saying precisely how JMU's economics are in trouble because they happen to carry a large athletics subsidy, and precisely how JMU students are more victimized by excessive debt than UVa or Tech grads?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Where's the article saying precisely how JMU's economics are in trouble because they happen to carry a large athletics subsidy, and precisely how JMU students are more victimized by excessive debt than UVa or Tech grads?

My guess is that the article was considerd and then it was determined that there was no need to further embarass JMU for their bloated budget. People that care can sort the USA Today article table and those with any sense can form a pretty logical conclusion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My guess is that the article was considerd and then it was determined that there was no need to further embarass JMU for their bloated budget. People that care can sort the USA Today article table and those with any sense can form a pretty logical conclusion.

My guess is that Virginia lawmakers are too scared to go after meaningful reform, so they're arbitrarily and unfairly targeting all institutions of higher learning not named UVa and Tech and forcing them to do something they shouldn't have to do, and as a byproduct ensuring that UVa and Tech dominate the state athletically for several more generations. All the while, tuitions will continue to rise and students will continue to go into debt.

[clenz]

My guess is that the article was considerd and then it was determined that there was no need to further embarass JMU for their bloated budget. People that care can sort the USA Today article table and those with any sense can form a pretty logical conclusion.
JMU's 2015 revenue $44,825,701

Ticket Sales - 2,256,533
Licensing - 3,419,306
School funds - 549,438
Other - 474,343
Student fees - 35,287,957

JMU is literally the most subsidized department in the nation....by nearly 2 million dollars

Only two of the top 10 most subsized programs in America even use more than 11m in student fees - ODU and UD-Davis

There are as many schools using zero dollars in student fees as over 11m - Western Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Delaware

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

JMU's 2015 revenue $44,825,701

Ticket Sales - 2,256,533
Licensing - 3,419,306
School funds - 549,438
Other - 474,343
Student fees - 35,287,957

JMU is literally the most subsidized department in the nation....by nearly 2 million dollars

Only two of the top 10 most subsized programs in America even use more than 11m in student fees - ODU and UD-Davis

There are as many schools using zero dollars in student fees as over 11m - Western Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Delaware

See? He looked at the table and formed a logical conclusion. A separate article to embarass JMU is unnecessary.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

See? He looked at the table and formed a logical conclusion. A separate article to embarass JMU is unnecessary.

What problem are you trying to solve?

If spending athletic fees is the root of all athletics evil, why isn't UVa and Tech required to give up the combined $20 million they pull in fees and subsidies? There is no argument I think from anyone that of all the schools in the state, they need subsidies the least.

Is the problem that, morally, JMU is spending too much on athletic subsidies? What makes you qualified to say that's the case? If prospective students start to balk at paying for athletics, the market will correct itself accordingly and JMU will lose enrollment.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow LFN. I really don't get where you get off with some of this stuff?

I'll give you credit. Even while being eviscerated you stick to your guns. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wow LFN. I really don't get where you get off with some of this stuff?

I'll give you credit. Even while being eviscerated you stick to your guns. xlolx

People are pointing to the USA Today chart and saying "that's bad". But what is bad about it? People can't explain why JMU spending that much on athletics subsidies is somehow bad for that school, or the state of Virginia.

[Pinnum]

Is the problem that, morally, JMU is spending too much on athletic subsidies? What makes you qualified to say that's the case? If prospective students start to balk at paying for athletics, the market will correct itself accordingly and JMU will lose enrollment.

You're right. The market can correct itself when it is free of government interference but when you're talking about a quasi government agency here then we have to have a debate about the appropriate level and put mechanisms in place to manipulate the decision making due to the manipulations already applied.

You can't continue to use taxpayer funding to prop the school up from failing and at the same time cut taxpayer funding to see if it will fail so you can find out if the current allocations are sustainable or not.

Of course we wouldn't have these debates if they were privately funded or if they were merely receiving public support via student vouchers. But since this is not the Patriot League, there needs to be a debate about what is the proper use of other people's money.

Personally, I would rather just make them all private and do away with direct support so the CAA could operate like the Patriot League but we don't live in an ideal world.

[tribe_pride]

In reality, could JMU raise tuition by $1,000, reduce student fees by $1,000 and use the extra $1,000 of tuition as "School Funds" so it is not get called "Student Fees" and is this what others do?

If so, this argument is all about nothing and you should really look at full cost of attendance (which makes sense anyway). If not, carry on.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

People are pointing to the USA Today chart and saying "that's bad". But what is bad about it? People can't explain why JMU spending that much on athletics subsidies is somehow bad for that school, or the state of Virginia.

It is bad because it is way overboard and oppressive financially on it's own students. I use the comparison of their peers. I think we all know what happens when things are left to run their course in that there is normally a crash of some sort and lots of people suffer a little bit.

Trying to correct things before an inevitable crash is human nature so as we avoid that sort of thing. Just seems real wierd how you are trying to make connections and comparisons that are not there. I let you finish with the others since I am Johnny come lately to this one but damn man, it doesn't make a lot of sense where you are coming from is all I got.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You can't continue to use taxpayer funding to prop the school up from failing and at the same time cut taxpayer funding to see if it will fail so you can find out if the current allocations are sustainable or not.

Of course we wouldn't have these debates if they were privately funded or if they were merely receiving public support via student vouchers. But since this is not the Patriot League, there needs to be a debate about what is the proper use of other people's money.

Privately funded schools can do essentially what they want and don't need to disclose the amounts they spend on athletics.

But you bring up a good point, the crux of the question. The question is, "is JMU actually a failing school that is funneling money into athletics and cheating its students?" If JMU isn't a "failing school", why are they being singled out?

Show me evidence that JMU is actually a "failing school", and perhaps I'd think the legislation has some value. Your argument is that we can't really tell, because they are government-manipulated institutions in the first place. That's a valid point. However, I have to believe there are other ways to measure the relative "failure quotient" of the universities than athletics spending and subsidy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In reality, could JMU raise tuition by $1,000, reduce student fees by $1,000 and use the extra $1,000 of tuition as "School Funds" so it is not get called "Student Fees" and is this what others do?

If so, this argument is all about nothing and you should really look at full cost of attendance (which makes sense anyway). If not, carry on.

I think this is essentially what's going to be done at JMU, though a JMU person could probably chime in and verify.

[Pinnum]

People are pointing to the USA Today chart and saying "that's bad". But what is bad about it? People can't explain why JMU spending that much on athletics subsidies is somehow bad for that school, or the state of Virginia.

Virginia Rep: Hear ye, hear ye! My constituents demand they pay less in taxes.

JMU President: We need that $80MM in taxpayer funding otherwise we can't pay our bills.

Virginia Rep: Are you sure you need it?

JMU President: Yes, totally sure.

Virginia Rep: You can't just ask the students to pay more?

JMU President: Oh no, the cost of an education is very taxing on a family. We need to have this money to ensure the kids in Virginia can get a quality education. We already have to charge students more money to attend JMU than UVA charges. We really need the money.

Virginia Rep: Okay, would you mind if I review how you are spending your money?

JMU President: Oh that isn't necessary.

Virginia Rep: I just want to make sure all is being done so I can go back to my community and say that their tax dollars are being used for the greater good.

JMU President: If you insist... Here they are.

Virginia Rep: Why are you charging the students so much money to support the football program? Can't you just cut spending there and move some of the money around? I think the people in my community wouldn't support giving you money so you can keep doing this. This isn't good...

JMU President: Well... Ah... You see...

LFN: Yo, JMU President. I'm a let you finish but people keep saying this spending is bad an all but you don't say how it is bad. You think it is some moral thing but you probably just went to UVA or VT so you just don't want anyone else to have football like you. You're just out to get JMU. You can't tell me why football is bad. Just give us the $80MM. It is our $80MM. If people didn't want us to have it then there wouldn't be students at JMU and there are students at JMU who need the money. And those students, well, some of them, they like football. So get off your moral high horse and give us our annual check.


JMU President: I'll show myself out...

Virginia Rep: I think that'd be for the best.

[RootinFerDukes]

This is what SBC schools have been looking for. When Middle Tenn and Western KY went to CUSA, they were "warned" that the new makeup wouldn't get the respect of the "old" CUSA. ULL and Ark St in the West and GS and App in the East challenges their top.

As for revenue, I can report that our revenues are up and we made a profit last year. Out of 5 games that ESPN broadcasts SBC they chose us for 3 of them...how much does a 3 hour commercial on National TV cost?

There are a lot of G5s that will have trouble. How lucky are Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Rutgers, and other also-rans in P5? P5 includes the 20 or so schools who average more than 70k in attendance followed by a huge drop down to the 40s and 30s. If you think your School can grow it's attendance to the 40s, then FBS will pay off. Otherwise, FCS is a great place to be.

A few years back I read that only seven schools nationwide turned a profit without relying on student fees. All of those were P5 programs.
Somehow I don't believe your claim that you made a profit.

[DFW HOYA]

Subsidies are a hot topic in public schools because they they are public record. What's the subsidy at a private school? More than you think.

In 2015, Bucknell had a total of 16,278 home attendees last season (That's 16,278 total, not per game.) At a general admission price of $8.00 per person (mindful that some buy $10 reserved seats and lots of students are free), let's sat that Bucknell has revenue of approx. $130,224 per season. There's no TV contract, and consider radio rights, parking and concessions as marginal costs. So take that $130K against the published football budget of $3,846,012. How much of that 97% variance is a university subsidy?

[RootinFerDukes]

That's the spirit! If we are going to strap students with debt anyway then it might as well be used to cover things like ensuring football players don't have to worry about any expenses while they attend the same school.

Sure FCS is better than G5 for the general student in most cases but even so FCS may still be a waste of resources. Virginia's bill was a rationale response to a legitimate issue taxpayers and families of students at the public schools have with how resources are allocated.

Yeah you're right about the "why should we be pooling money for scholarships to athletes while a regular student still has to pay their share". That was probably the original argument when athletic scholarships were first introduced. "Why can't we use that money elsewhere?".
A similar argument could be made about almost everything on campus, especially if it isn't academically related. Nice gym? Why? Nice dining hall? Why? Nice library? All it needs are books. Nice buildings? Etc
It's just popular to attack sports because it's not deemed by some as "essential" while some of those other nice lifestyle facilities are "important to me".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Virginia Rep: Why are you charging the students so much money to support the football program? Can't you just cut spending there and move some of the money around? I think the people in my community wouldn't support giving you money so you can keep doing this. This isn't good...

JMU President: Do you do this for all schools, or just us?

FIFY

[Pinnum]

Subsidies are a hot topic in public schools because they they are public record. What's the subsidy at a private school? More than you think.

In 2015, Bucknell had a total of 16,278 home attendees last season (That's 16,278 total, not per game.) At a general admission price of $8.00 per person (mindful that some buy $10 reserved seats and lots of students are free), let's sat that Bucknell has revenue of approx. $130,224 per season. There's no TV contract, and consider radio rights, parking and concessions as marginal costs. So take that $130K against the published football budget of $3,846,012. How much of that 97% variance is a university subsidy?

Of course, Bucknell is not going to the taxpayers looking for money to keep the school from going bankrupt. That is the difference.

[RootinFerDukes]

So why not pass a bill forcing that the state subsidize $0 for UVa and Tech athletics? They clearly don't need the help, because their "expousre" is already so "great", and it would theoretically benefit more people and ostensibly lower more people's tuition. If lowering tuition is really what it's about.

The legislation is about student athletic fees, not state funding. It's money students are paying through tuition and fees each semester.
I don't believe any state provided funds are allowed to touch any part of a school's athletic budget.

[RootinFerDukes]

UVA subsidized their AD by $13M last FY while JMU did by $35M during the same period.

If I need to tell you who got a better bang for their bucks, I'll assume you didn't study business. Or logic.

If we had the revenue privileges that a P5 school has we wouldn't have a figure that high. It's actually sad UVA's is as high as 13M.

[dbackjon]

Of course, Bucknell is not going to the taxpayers looking for money to keep the school from going bankrupt. That is the difference.

And how much of their overall budget is propped up by student loans, Pell Grants, etc?

How much savings do they get by being non-profit and tax exempt?

[Pinnum]

JMU President: Do you do this for all schools, or just us?

FIFY

Virginia Rep: Actually, we do it for all schools. Of course, we hold UVA and VT to the highest standard of all. They are only permitted to have 20% of their budget come from subsidies. While you at JMU are permitted to have up to 70% come from subsidies.

We put these various bands in place as a checks and balances system. We recognize that schools, like JMU that compete in the FCS have less of an expectation to generate revenue and so we allow you to make up more of your budget from subsidies. However, at the same time, since you're at the FCS level we don't want there to be a lot of spending that would waste taxpayer spending.

We figured this was a compromise. The more money you generate, the more we will allow to come from taxpayers but if you're not able to sustain without the taxpayers then we should look into dropping to a lower athletic level because the taxpayers aren't interested in funding your whole program.

If you'd like to learn more about this you can read the whole law here: https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?151+ful+CHAP0704

[Pinnum]

And how much of their overall budget is propped up by student loans, Pell Grants, etc?

How much savings do they get by being non-profit and tax exempt?

The students have guaranteed their debt. The students made the decision to use their future earnings for those costs.

Students are free to take their funding anywhere they want and they can have a large portion of it go to football or to feminist dance therapy. It is up to them.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Subsidies are a hot topic in public schools because they they are public record. What's the subsidy at a private school? More than you think.

In 2015, Bucknell had a total of 16,278 home attendees last season (That's 16,278 total, not per game.) At a general admission price of $8.00 per person (mindful that some buy $10 reserved seats and lots of students are free), let's sat that Bucknell has revenue of approx. $130,224 per season. There's no TV contract, and consider radio rights, parking and concessions as marginal costs. So take that $130K against the published football budget of $3,846,012. How much of that 97% variance is a university subsidy?

Based on recent fundraising correspondence from the Bucknell football program, the program is responsible for raising 40% of its costs, though I am not sure about the base for that 40%. I am sure there are others here who can give you a better picture.

[clenz]

If we had the revenue privileges that a P5 school has we wouldn't have a figure that high. It's actually sad UVA's is as high as 13M.
If worms had machine guns, then birds would be scared of them.

If I had a 4.0 GPA and a 36 ACT I wouldn't have student debt

If I was 6'4 instead of 6' I'd have had a D1 football scholarship and no student debt

If I didn't come from a working class family with no money I wouldn't have student debt

If this and that then so and so.

That's the dumbest defense of being an FCS school and spending 45 ****ing million dollars on an athletic department

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

If we had the revenue privileges that a P5 school has we wouldn't have a figure that high. It's actually sad UVA's is as high as 13M.

And if my aunt had a d!ck, she'd be my uncle.

FWIW, UVA is winning national championships in Non-Rev sports. There is some publicity that comes along with that.

[dbackjon]

The students have guaranteed their debt. The students made the decision to use their future earnings for those costs.

Students are free to take their funding anywhere they want and they can have a large portion of it go to football or to feminist dance therapy. It is up to them.

I think you are missing the point - those are Federal Funds, mostly. So the taxpayers DO pay for the private schools as well.

[unknown3]

They did not proceed with the stadium expansion and these are not 'home and home' deals. They are surrendering some of their 'bodybag' payout to get a 2 for 1.

As others have mentioned, ODU athletics is headed down a very dangerous road.

It doesn't really matter. They have 4 ACC teams coming to their home stadium. They'll be ok.

[Pinnum]

I think you are missing the point - those are Federal Funds, mostly. So the taxpayers DO pay for the private schools as well.

No, I am not missing the point.

If we accept that the state has an interest in making credit accessible to students and we also accept that each individual has varying interest in those things which they wish to be exposed to as a part of their educational experience, then there is no reason to think that an individual should not be able to use their allotted provisions in the way that they deem appropriate.

They are not paying for private schools, they are paying for the education of students and the students are deciding where they want an education.

But even if we accept your argument on its face, your premise that the government is losing money on the program is at odds with the facts. The US government has the greatest access to capital in the world and pays some of the lowest rates for credit. It is one of MANY government programs being leveraged to generate revenue to increase spending. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/16/us-government-projected-to-make-record-50b-in-student-loan-profit/2427443/

[dbackjon]

No, I am not missing the point.

If we accept that the state has an interest in making credit accessible to students and we also accept that each individual has varying interest in those things which they wish to be exposed to as a part of their educational experience, then there is no reason to think that an individual should not be able to use their allotted provisions in the way that they deem appropriate.

They are not paying for private schools, they are paying for the education of students and the students are deciding where they want an education.

But even if we accept your argument on its face, your premise that the government is losing money on the program is at odds with the facts. The US government has the greatest access to capital in the world and pays some of the lowest rates for credit. It is one of MANY government programs being leveraged to generate revenue to increase spending. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/16/us-government-projected-to-make-record-50b-in-student-loan-profit/2427443/


Which the students pay to the college, like Bucknell. It is a simple concept. And Pell Grants are not paid back

[The Eagle's Cliff]

A few years back I read that only seven schools nationwide turned a profit without relying on student fees. All of those were P5 programs.
Somehow I don't believe your claim that you made a profit.

Revenues exceeded expenditures for 2015. I'm sure the state money and student fees are counted as revenue. I'm sure our football program at GS has more than paid for itself over the years as we've been consistently among the smallest budgets in D1.

The Academic Elite argument against money for sports is old. As long as there are degrees for Gender Studies and other completely useless PC subjects, don't talk about waste in Higher Education. In Georgia, we spend a greater percentage of the budget on education than any other state and we're consistently 48th or 49th. Billions spent on facilities, salaries, transportation, breakfast, lunch, supper, after school programs, summer school, etc. Still the JUCOS are overflowing with high school "graduates" who need non- credit math, English, and science courses just to begin undergraduate studies.

[Pinnum]

Which the students pay to the college, like Bucknell. It is a simple concept. And Pell Grants are not paid back

Are you one of the people that thinks stafford loans should not be made available to students that want to attend Notre Dame because you think it means the state is sponsoring religion?

[dbackjon]

Are you one of the people that thinks stafford loans should not be made available to students that want to attend Notre Dame because you think it means the state is sponsoring religion?


Not at all.

My whole response was to your claim that Bucknell was not looking to taxpayers to keep from going bankrupt. That is not telling the full story IF Federally guaranteed student loans/pell grants were not available to students at private schools, then many would be in serious financial trouble.

A school like Bucknell would have to dip into their sizable endowment, and use it up, if no Federal dollars were flowing to it.

[Yote 53]

That's because people who make decisions often have actual information rather than a sticker price they googled.

For instance, UVA and JMU are nearly identical in size (both about 20k students) and while UVA's students were forced to contribute $13.5MM to their athletic program JMU's students contributed were forced to contribute $35.2M.

Since this is a football forum, we can talk about revenue. JMU's football team generated $3.8MM while UVA's generated $24.5MM. Of course you'll counter that UVA spends more. And that is fair. But they don't spend more than they take in. JMU's football program lost $4.4MM compared to UVA's surplus of $6.4MM.

It is possible that UVA students want more of their tuition to go to the football program. After all, they continue to direct money to the program even when it is no longer compulsory.

But since you seem to think the issue is the price students are being charged to attend the schools then we can examine those figures as well. UVA cost students an average of $14k in 2014-15 while JMU cost students $14.7k a year. You're caught up in the fallacy of the sticker price. Only a small percentage of students pay full freight at schools. These are the students with the most options already available to them so they can elect to attend a Richmond, Longwood, George Mason, Lehigh, Johns Hopkins or Vassar if they don't like how UVA is operated.

So, yes, there is reason to think the state legislature has an interest in how these state institutions are being operated and I think it is fair to say that there is reason to be less critical of UVA.

When looking at the bolded it seems to me that football is not the culprit here. Sure, whenever somebody mentions college athletics people's minds instantly go to football or men's basketball. The problem is that those two sports are the outliers in an athletic department that loses huge money in every other sport.

In simple terms, JMU students are getting stuck with the bill for women's athletics.

What JMU athletics backers need to do is spin this issue and chastise anybody who would dare criticize the university for providing opportunities to females through the issuance of athletic scholarships and the funding of women's sports. Anytime the issue is raised the people raising the issue should be shouted down and labeled as haters of women and minority groups.

[clenz]

B12 had some meetings this week.

Big take away from them?

B12 is going to expand and plans to do so relatively quickly. The feeling is that is nothing changes the B12 will fall significantly behind other P5 leagues over the next decade. No number or time frame was set, though unlikely to happen at May meetings.

Sounds like 14 or 16 is the number they are looking to get too, and have looked at a plethora of 16 team options.

The list of likely teams to be approached - in no order
Cinci
Houston
Memphis
Boise
UCONN
SMU
Wyoming
Colorado State


That means the MWC and AAC will be looking - here comes the grabbing of CUSA and maybe Sun Belt of MAC programs.

We also know if one conference goes to 16 the others won't be far behind.


I don't watch Game of Thrones - rather famously if you're a CS reader xlolx - but I feel like the whole thing of "WINTER IS COMING" is starting to play out.

Didn't it take like 4 seasons for the dragons to finally show up? Might take a few seasons for it to all shake out but it seems like the wheels of the train might actually start moving.

[Pinnum]

Not at all.

My whole response was to your claim that Bucknell was not looking to taxpayers to keep from going bankrupt. That is not telling the full story IF Federally guaranteed student loans/pell grants were not available to students at private schools, then many would be in serious financial trouble.

A school like Bucknell would have to dip into their sizable endowment, and use it up, if no Federal dollars were flowing to it.

At expensive private schools, the dependency on federal loans is actually less because of borrowing limits. You'll see more people taking out large private loans when you look at the students carrying more debt. Some schools have elected to completely refuse federal aid programs rather than to take on the cost of employing a staff to handle the regulations that they require.

Of course, it is more common in liberal arts focused schools. When schools depend on research dollars they become more willing to do what is asked of them.

[BisonTru]

B12 had some meetings this week.

Big take away from them?

B12 is going to expand and plans to do so relatively quickly. The feeling is that is nothing changes the B12 will fall significantly behind other P5 leagues over the next decade. No number or time frame was set, though unlikely to happen at May meetings.


Do you have any links?

Also, is BYU that untouchable that even with this aggressive of a move they aren't on the radar?

[Pinnum]

When looking at the bolded it seems to me that football is not the culprit here. Sure, whenever somebody mentions college athletics people's minds instantly go to football or men's basketball. The problem is that those two sports are the outliers in an athletic department that loses huge money in every other sport.

In simple terms, JMU students are getting stuck with the bill for women's athletics.

What JMU athletics backers need to do is spin this issue and chastise anybody who would dare criticize the university for providing opportunities to females through the issuance of athletic scholarships and the funding of women's sports. Anytime the issue is raised the people raising the issue should be shouted down and labeled as haters of women and minority groups.

Sure, that is one approach. Of course, title IX has been around for over 30 years so it is not any surprise to any administration. It is something most administrators have literally had to deal with their whole career. It is something, in fact, that every Division-I program deals with so when you're comparing resource allocation across schools there isn't much reason to argue that your school requires more subsidies than your peers.

It is true that having programs like football props up some women's programs but it isn't as if there is any justification for a school to only operate a football program. If you value athletic participation as part of your educational experience than it should include a diverse offering of sports.

[clenz]

Do you have any links?

Also, is BYU that untouchable that even with this aggressive of a move they aren't on the radar?

Twitter. No articles as of now as meetings just got over this afternoon.

[RootinFerDukes]

I think this is essentially what's going to be done at JMU, though a JMU person could probably chime in and verify.

That's what some people claim, especially when comparing out of state and their varying accounting laws, it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

[RootinFerDukes]

Tax payers aren't funding athletic programs. I don't know why some of you keep saying that.

[RootinFerDukes]

When looking at the bolded it seems to me that football is not the culprit here. Sure, whenever somebody mentions college athletics people's minds instantly go to football or men's basketball. The problem is that those two sports are the outliers in an athletic department that loses huge money in every other sport.

In simple terms, JMU students are getting stuck with the bill for women's athletics.

What JMU athletics backers need to do is spin this issue and chastise anybody who would dare criticize the university for providing opportunities to females through the issuance of athletic scholarships and the funding of women's sports. Anytime the issue is raised the people raising the issue should be shouted down and labeled as haters of women and minority groups.

You have just accurately summarized the main budget problem. There is title ix compliance, NCAA D1 status mandates you have X number of sports, then our admin has chosen to full fund all scholarship minimums for all of our sports. That is the bulk of the cost, the non-revenue sports.
I don't know about other schools, but do most fully fund? They probably contribute a bare minimum to their volleyball teams or women's soccer teams. We are certainly giving more opportunities but it's on the financial backs of other students.
Most P5 programs have enough revenue from football to fund all their non-revenue sports.

[BisonTru]

So at this point Big 12 expanding to 12 seems pretty likely. The AAC is home to most candidates as well as the leading 2 IMO (Cincy and Memphis).

Who would be the top replacement candidates for the AAC?

[RootinFerDukes]

So at this point Big 12 expanding to 12 seems pretty likely. The AAC is home to most candidates as well as the leading 2 IMO (Cincy and Memphis).

Who would be the top replacement candidates for the AAC?
Someone with a market, although I personally think that method has proven useless without a fan base. What I think they should do and what they'll actually do are two very different things.

[Dane96]

UMASS has to be on that list. What they think about that for hoops...I don't know. Losing (hypothetically) Memphis and Cincy makes the league FAR less attractive in hoops, IMHO.

[Twentysix]

B12 had some meetings this week.

Big take away from them?

B12 is going to expand and plans to do so relatively quickly. The feeling is that is nothing changes the B12 will fall significantly behind other P5 leagues over the next decade. No number or time frame was set, though unlikely to happen at May meetings.

Sounds like 14 or 16 is the number they are looking to get too, and have looked at a plethora of 16 team options.

The list of likely teams to be approached - in no order
Cinci
Houston
Memphis
Boise
UCONN
SMU
Wyoming
Colorado State


That means the MWC and AAC will be looking - here comes the grabbing of CUSA and maybe Sun Belt of MAC programs.

We also know if one conference goes to 16 the others won't be far behind.


I don't watch Game of Thrones - rather famously if you're a CS reader xlolx - but I feel like the whole thing of "WINTER IS COMING" is starting to play out.

Didn't it take like 4 seasons for the dragons to finally show up? Might take a few seasons for it to all shake out but it seems like the wheels of the train might actually start moving.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjzC2DRgEo4

[dgtw]

Someone with a market, although I personally think that method has proven useless without a fan base. What I think they should do and what they'll actually do are two very different things.

I agree. I remember when CUSA added FIU and FAU and everyone on the CUSA board was having an orgasm over what a great market they tapped into. I thought they were crap gets with zero benefits other than you could take a basketball road trip and get two games out of one flight. Now they want to get rid of both.

I think their next big get will be Georgia State and the results will be the same.

[BisonTru]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/big12/2016/05/04/big-12-meetings-expansion-title-game-championship-new-teams-schools/83949584/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomcollegefootball-topstories

Although no one has officially mentioned the potential additions to the league, they are, in alphabetical order: BYU, Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Houston and Memphis.

I'm kind of shocked Boise St wouldn't be included. If you want to increase football competitiveness in the Big 12, I would strongly consider the Broncos.

Probably far from the most likely scenario, but if they pulled the trigger and went to sixteen teams and pulled 5 from the AAC that would be a huge blow. I read somewhere the AAC commissioner has stated they have contingency plans no matter what happens moving forward. I wonder what their plan is if that plays out.

[walliver]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/big12/2016/05/04/big-12-meetings-expansion-title-game-championship-new-teams-schools/83949584/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomcollegefootball-topstories


I'm kind of shocked Boise St wouldn't be included. If you want to increase football competitiveness in the Big 12, I would strongly consider the Broncos.

Probably far from the most likely scenario, but if they pulled the trigger and went to sixteen teams and pulled 5 from the AAC that would be a huge blow. I read somewhere the AAC commissioner has stated they have contingency plans no matter what happens moving forward. I wonder what their plan is if that plays out.

Adding those schools would seem to reduce (not increase) the B12's attractiveness and strength of schedule.

[344Johnson]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/big12/2016/05/04/big-12-meetings-expansion-title-game-championship-new-teams-schools/83949584/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomcollegefootball-topstories


I'm kind of shocked Boise St wouldn't be included. If you want to increase football competitiveness in the Big 12, I would strongly consider the Broncos.

Probably far from the most likely scenario, but if they pulled the trigger and went to sixteen teams and pulled 5 from the AAC that would be a huge blow. I read somewhere the AAC commissioner has stated they have contingency plans no matter what happens moving forward. I wonder what their plan is if that plays out.

Glorified junior college.

[JMU2004]

In reality, could JMU raise tuition by $1,000, reduce student fees by $1,000 and use the extra $1,000 of tuition as "School Funds" so it is not get called "Student Fees" and is this what others do?

If so, this argument is all about nothing and you should really look at full cost of attendance (which makes sense anyway). If not, carry on.

This is PRECISELY what happens at most state schools. In Virginia, that is not allowed.

[Go Green]

That's because people who make decisions often have actual information rather than a sticker price they googled.

For instance, UVA and JMU are nearly identical in size (both about 20k students) and while UVA's students were forced to contribute $13.5MM to their athletic program JMU's students contributed were forced to contribute $35.2M.

Since this is a football forum, we can talk about revenue. JMU's football team generated $3.8MM while UVA's generated $24.5MM. Of course you'll counter that UVA spends more. And that is fair. But they don't spend more than they take in. JMU's football program lost $4.4MM compared to UVA's surplus of $6.4MM.

It is possible that UVA students want more of their tuition to go to the football program. After all, they continue to direct money to the program even when it is no longer compulsory.

But since you seem to think the issue is the price students are being charged to attend the schools then we can examine those figures as well. UVA cost students an average of $14k in 2014-15 while JMU cost students $14.7k a year. You're caught up in the fallacy of the sticker price. Only a small percentage of students pay full freight at schools. These are the students with the most options already available to them so they can elect to attend a Richmond, Longwood, George Mason, Lehigh, Johns Hopkins or Vassar if they don't like how UVA is operated.

So, yes, there is reason to think the state legislature has an interest in how these state institutions are being operated and I think it is fair to say that there is reason to be less critical of UVA.

A lot of these issues are the reason why George Mason doesn't have a varsity team.

[Pinnum]

This is PRECISELY what happens at most state schools. In Virginia, that is not allowed.

That's not true. Which state allows athletics to be funded from tuition dollars? Almost any state school discloses their University budget publicly online. You can do the digging and find out where the allocations come from. Student fees is how public schools get their money for fringe programs like athletics.

JMU's problem is not revenue but expenses. They spend too much. They spend like an FBS school--outspending Boise State even.

I took a snapshot of some peer schools data.

While you've said that it is the spending on other sports scholarships that probably results in more spending, Rhode Island and Delaware spend more on scholarships (though JMU is third in this group for scholarship spending at probably about $2.5M more a year than the average). Salaries should all be fairly similar for this group of schools and scholarships should be about the average for this group as well.

So all of these should be fairly good comps.



School
Athletes
Total Dept Spending
Spending per Athlete


McNeese State
482
$10,295,747
$21,360


Jacksonville State
393
$12,240,307
$31,146


Sam Houston State
509
$15,284,205
$30,028


Northern Iowa
525
$17,164,416
$32,694


Montana State
418
$17,335,624
$41,473


Montana
473
$18,904,736
$39,968


Southern Illinois
568
$22,163,385
$39,020


North Dakota State
418
$22,268,430
$53,274


North Dakota
550
$23,977,642
$43,596


Rhode Island
633
$24,028,080
$37,959


Delaware
664
$29,470,968
$44,384


James Madison
465
$38,832,659
$83,511

[Lehigh Football Nation]

^ How much of that is stadium financing?

[Pinnum]

^ How much of that is stadium financing?

Come on. You're the journalist...

But if you mean Bridgeforth Stadium financing charges then it is about $3MM a year. If you mean total debt the athletic department has then they pay about $6MM a year. The football stadium is the bulk of the debt they currently have. They should pay that off football stadium in about 15 years.

As you know, debt is common with athletic departments. Even in the rare instances when the majority of funding is already committed by donors many schools will secure financing to give the donors time to free up capital to help service the debt.

[Bill]

Most P5 programs have enough revenue from football to fund all their non-revenue sports.

Rootin - can you point me to a source for that? Not trying to be a wise a$$, but I actually teach a class that covers this. The more information I can gather the better.

[clenz]

Rootin - can you point me to a source for that? Not trying to be a wise a$$, but I actually teach a class that covers this. The more information I can gather the better.A damn good read, though long. Has charts for all P5 schools and goes back a decade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/

I'll copy and past the "about this story" from the article




ABOUT THIS STORY: To examine spending trends in college sports, The Washington Post requested financial records for 2004 and 2014 from athletic departments at all 53 public schools in the "Power Five," the five wealthiest collegiate athletic conferences. Every year, each school sends a report detailing athletic expenses and revenues to the NCAA. Through open records requests, reporters collected 2004 and 2014 reports from 48 schools. Twelve Power Five schools are private, and their financial reports are not public records. Four public schools (North Carolina State, Louisville, Oregon State and Penn State) refused to provide 2004 reports, which are not public records in those states. One public school -- Pittsburgh -- refused to provide both 2004 and 2014 reports. To determine which departments are profitable, reporters used a methodology similar -- but more favorable to athletic departments -- to how the NCAA determines which are profitable. From earnings, reporters subtracted mandatory student fees and financial support a school gives athletics, leaving behind what the NCAA refers to as "generated revenue" -- the actual money a sports department makes. From expenses, reporters subtracted money athletic departments report giving back to schools, which the NCAA counts as an expense. All 2004 figures are adjusted for inflation.

[RootinFerDukes]

Rootin - can you point me to a source for that? Not trying to be a wise a$$, but I actually teach a class that covers this. The more information I can gather the better.

Well I was generalizing when I shouldn't have been. I know the big programs, Texas, Alabama etc are said to generate enough revenue to fund their other sports with football's profits.

[dgtw]

Well I was generalizing when I shouldn't have been. I know the big programs, Texas, Alabama etc are said to generate enough revenue to fund their other sports with football's profits.

About 20 or so schools turn a profit on athletics.

[Bill]

[QUOTE=clenz;2339120]A damn good read, though long. Has charts for all P5 schools and goes back a decade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/

Clenz - thanks...I have seen that one before. The article reflects the information I teach in my classes - I guess I just wanted a little confirmation :)

[JMU2004]

That's not true. Which state allows athletics to be funded from tuition dollars? Almost any state school discloses their University budget publicly online. You can do the digging and find out where the allocations come from. Student fees is how public schools get their money for fringe programs like athletics.

JMU's problem is not revenue but expenses. They spend too much. They spend like an FBS school--outspending Boise State even.

I took a snapshot of some peer schools data.

While you've said that it is the spending on other sports scholarships that probably results in more spending, Rhode Island and Delaware spend more on scholarships (though JMU is third in this group for scholarship spending at probably about $2.5M more a year than the average). Salaries should all be fairly similar for this group of schools and scholarships should be about the average for this group as well.

So all of these should be fairly good comps.



School
Athletes
Total Dept Spending
Spending per Athlete


McNeese State
482
$10,295,747
$21,360


Jacksonville State
393
$12,240,307
$31,146


Sam Houston State
509
$15,284,205
$30,028


Northern Iowa
525
$17,164,416
$32,694


Montana State
418
$17,335,624
$41,473


Montana
473
$18,904,736
$39,968


Southern Illinois
568
$22,163,385
$39,020


North Dakota State
418
$22,268,430
$53,274


North Dakota
550
$23,977,642
$43,596


Rhode Island
633
$24,028,080
$37,959


Delaware
664
$29,470,968
$44,384


James Madison
465
$38,832,659
$83,511




Your assumption that all states follow the same accounting guidelines is incorrect. I am a CPA that works in higher ed (ironically, at a PRIVATE school). Virginia is on an island (I think in a good way) with how their state system is accounted for.

I could launch into a 40 page post about this topic, but you must understand that you can't use an apples:apples or dollar:dollar approach when looking at schools in different states. The data simply isn't consistent, whether it be how costs are allocated, how scholarships are charged, what fees are directed where, etc....

If you want to look at a good comparison to JMU, look to W&M or other Virginia schools. No one is arguing that JMU isn't spending a ridiculous amount of $$$ for FCS football and mid-major basketball. I personally think there is a huge amount of bloat in our budget, primarliy in the adminstration.
http://www.wm.edu/offices/financialoperations/documents/CWM%20NCAA%202015.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-statements/JMUncaa2015.pdf

One other thing, when using the Audited Financials, the per student athletic fee @ W&M is $1,617, while @ JMU it is $1,662.

[Pinnum]

Your assumption that all states follow the same accounting guidelines is incorrect. I am a CPA that works in higher ed (ironically, at a PRIVATE school). Virginia is on an island (I think in a good way) with how their state system is accounted for.

I could launch into a 40 page post about this topic, but you must understand that you can't use an apples:apples or dollar:dollar approach when looking at schools in different states. The data simply isn't consistent, whether it be how costs are allocated, how scholarships are charged, what fees are directed where, etc....

If you want to look at a good comparison to JMU, look to W&M or other Virginia schools. No one is arguing that JMU isn't spending a ridiculous amount of $$$ for FCS football and mid-major basketball. I personally think there is a huge amount of bloat in our budget, primarliy in the adminstration.
http://www.wm.edu/offices/financialoperations/documents/CWM%20NCAA%202015.pdf

http://www.jmu.edu/financeoffice/fin-statements/JMUncaa2015.pdf

One other thing, when using the Audited Financials, the per student athletic fee @ W&M is $1,617, while @ JMU it is $1,662.

If you're a CPA in higher education then you know that the NCAA financial reporting guidelines, which are different than state guidelines, are established to best help address various reporting methods across many states and as a result many schools have to develop multiple reports to adhere the the reporting standards of the various different entities in which they report.

The NCAA's reporting guidelines are regularly reviewed by member schools with significant input by their member school's administration because they are often used by administrations, BOTs, and legislatures to review their own spending and performance in comparison to their peers. Thus, schools that feel the reporting methods put them at an unfair advantage lobby to have the reporting expanded.

The NCAA's financial reporting system is one standard that has been developed with college athletics in mind to best ensure that all schools are able to best be able to have one universally accepted reporting standard. It gets better and better each year as the landscape changes.

While some people will merely use EADA data, which is a ballpark and a good overview metric, no one takes the data on it's face due to the poor guidelines developed by government bureaucrats not working in athletics. The most notable problem with the EADA is how they allow for any institutional resource allocation to be considered as athletic revenue (since it is moved from the school's left pocket to their left right pocket.) The government's poor system is why the NCAA members wanted a quality system that they could use to have a more accurate representation.

Since you're in the industry, I am sure you know all of this already but I thought I would share it for others that may have never seen these more detailed reports with more collegiate athletic centric reporting standards since most schools do not release them to the general public, or when they do, they only include limited data for the public to see.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/finances/ncaa-membership-financial-reporting-system

[Lehigh Football Nation]

While some people will merely use EADA data, which is a ballpark and a good overview metric, no one takes the data on it's face due to the poor guidelines developed by government bureaucrats not working in athletics. The most notable problem with the EADA is how they allow for any institutional resource allocation to be considered as athletic revenue (since it is moved from the school's left pocket to their left right pocket.) The government's poor system is why the NCAA members wanted a quality system that they could use to have a more accurate representation.

As someone who's combed those EADA reports way too much, I agree and I think it's a good thing to point out these EADA reports for what they are - ballparks, but nothing else.

For example, exactly how does BU claim to be receiving $12,976,366 in revenues from women's sports? If you think that's all (or mostly) coming from the gate for women's hockey games, that's, um, not true. xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If you're a CPA in higher education then you know that the NCAA financial reporting guidelines, which are different than state guidelines, are established to best help address various reporting methods across many states and as a result many schools have to develop multiple reports to adhere the the reporting standards of the various different entities in which they report.

The NCAA's reporting guidelines are regularly reviewed by member schools with significant input by their member school's administration because they are often used by administrations, BOTs, and legislatures to review their own spending and performance in comparison to their peers. Thus, schools that feel the reporting methods put them at an unfair advantage lobby to have the reporting expanded.

The NCAA's financial reporting system is one standard that has been developed with college athletics in mind to best ensure that all schools are able to best be able to have one universally accepted reporting standard. It gets better and better each year as the landscape changes.

While some people will merely use EADA data, which is a ballpark and a good overview metric, no one takes the data on it's face due to the poor guidelines developed by government bureaucrats not working in athletics. The most notable problem with the EADA is how they allow for any institutional resource allocation to be considered as athletic revenue (since it is moved from the school's left pocket to their left right pocket.) The government's poor system is why the NCAA members wanted a quality system that they could use to have a more accurate representation.

Since you're in the industry, I am sure you know all of this already but I thought I would share it for others that may have never seen these more detailed reports with more collegiate athletic centric reporting standards since most schools do not release them to the general public, or when they do, they only include limited data for the public to see.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/finances/ncaa-membership-financial-reporting-system

xlolx

When I get asked for money they only show me the expense portion of a type of Income Statement....I do ask for the top 1/2 of it but I never get that.

[clenz]

Update on the first post


http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/old-dominion/football/harry-minium/conference-usa-espn-appear-likely-to-cut-a-deal/article_0b392eb5-9271-5dc8-a117-c49924dcad47.html

Western Kentucky officials announced Thursday that their home football game with Old Dominion on Oct. 22 will be televised nationally and begin at 7 p.m. eastern time.


Might the game be televised by ESPN?


That's a long shot. Conference USA is re-negotiating contracts with Fox Sports, the CBS Sports Network and the American Sports Network, and they are expected to carry the bulk of the league's TV coverage.


But it was also learned recently that ESPN is close to cutting a deal that would return C-USA games to the nation's most popular sports cable channel. And evidence has begun to leak that the deal is all but sealed.


Texas-San Antonio athletic director Lynn Hickey appeared to confirm that recently during an alumni outing in Dallas. According to a Tweet from @utsadfwalumni, the Twitter handle for a UTSA alumni group from Dallas-Ft. Worth, she told a group of alumni that UTSA's Sept. 16 home game against Arizona State will be televised on ESPN2.


Since that game is being played at the Alamadome, Conference USA owns the TV rights.


ESPN and Conference USA have made no official announcement yet, but some national TV schedules already indicate ESPN2 will televise the game.


Although ESPN has televised Conference USA's football championship game and most of it bowl games, regular-season C-USA contests haven't been on the network since 2011, when C-USA signed new agreements with Fox Sports and the CBS Sports Network.


Those contracts, as well as one with the American Sports Network, expires at the end of June.


Getting Conference USA back on the nation's oldest and most popular cable TV sports network was a priority for league officials.


C-USA commissioner Judy MacLeod told the Norfolk Sports Club recently that she expects her league to announce deals "with three or four TV partners" around the middle of May, but would not confirm if ESPN is one of those partners.


ESPN and ESPN2 both reach about 94 million American homes and largely draw the best ratings for cable television sports.


Fox Sports 1, the largest outlet for Fox Sports, reaches about 84 million homes, but most Conference USA games are broadcast on regional networks that reach far smaller audiences.


The CBS Sports Network reaches about 56 millions homes and isn't on the basic package for Cox Communications, the dominant cable TV provider in Hampton Roads.


The American Sports Network potentially reaches 94 million TV homes, including all in Hampton Roads on WTVZ-TV. But most games are seen in only a fraction of those homes.


The network is owned by the Sinclair Broadcast Group, a Baltimore-based company that owns more than 150 broadcast stations in 80 markets. Each station has the option of choosing whether to carry games. In addition, ASN has agreements with several regional cable TV carriers to carry games.


ASN was ODU's primary TV outlet last season in both football and basketball, and that isn't expected to change in 2016-2017.


Rights fees for C-USA television are expected to fall from about $1 million per school to between $300,000 to $400,000.


Although TV revenue will decrease, MacLeod said the number of C-USA games that will be televised will increase.


ODU appears certain to have at least three games on TV even before the C-USA contracts are announced. ODU's Sept. 10 game at Appalachian State will be televised by an ESPN outlet and the Sept. 17 game at North Carolina State will be televised by ESPN or another ACC outlet.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I seriously doubt CUSA will get any Saturday games on ESPN. There are not many G5 versus G5 games on any of the main 3 ESPN channels on Saturdays, and that includes the AAC and Mountain West.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That 7PM WKU/ODU game will almost certainly be on the America Sports Network, alongside a bunch of FCS games. There's a lesson there somewhere.

[clenz]

That 7PM WKU/ODU game will almost certainly be on the America Sports Network, alongside a bunch of FCS games. There's a lesson there somewhere.
Hey, to ASN's credit I get it and I don't have cable/satellite.

It's the substation of the local CBS station that normally plays movies from the 30s and 40s that are black and white. I'm almost sure I've never seen a color movie on that substation.

[RootinFerDukes]

I seriously doubt CUSA will get any Saturday games on ESPN. There are not many G5 versus G5 games on any of the main 3 ESPN channels on Saturdays, and that includes the AAC and Mountain West.


That 7PM WKU/ODU game will almost certainly be on the America Sports Network, alongside a bunch of FCS games. There's a lesson there somewhere.

hush you two. let the G5 fans puff their chests out at fcs fans. they're so much more relevant than us and damnit we better recognize that.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

hush you two. let the G5 fans puff their chests out at fcs fans. they're so much more relevant than us and damnit we better recognize that.


Guilty as charged. Well, sort of. At least I can admit the Sun Belt's TV deal is a pittance in what it pays and comes with the drawback of having games on weekdays. But it's better than paying to be on TV.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

hush you two. let the G5 fans puff their chests out at fcs fans. they're so much more relevant than us and damnit we better recognize that.

Temple faired pretty well last year as a G5. As long as the AAC remains intact I'll be a happy camper.

The league had great visibility last year. The season culminated in Houston's win over FSU in the Peach Bowl. Hopefully this year is more of the same....

[Twentysix]

Guilty as charged. Well, sort of. At least I can admit the Sun Belt's TV deal is a pittance in what it pays and comes with the drawback of having games on weekdays. But it's better than paying to be on TV.

Pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

[Sitting Bull]

Temple faired pretty well last year as a G5. As long as the AAC remains intact I'll be a happy camper.

The league had great visibility last year. The season culminated in Houston's win over FSU in the Peach Bowl. Hopefully this year is more of the same....

Temple probably had their best year since the Wayne Hardin days 30 years ago.

It will probably never get better than the unfolding last year of hosting Notre Dame, actually filling the stadium in Philly and getting some students to the game - all on national TV.

The shame and reality of all this, which again shows if you aren't P5, you don't really count, was the reward being a slot in a new, low rate bowl game against a MAC team. Temple deserved better, the system though doesn't provide it and never will.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Temple probably had their best year since the Wayne Hardin days 30 years ago.

It will probably never get better than the unfolding last year of hosting Notre Dame, actually filling the stadium in Philly and getting some students to the game - all on national TV.

The shame and reality of all this, which again shows if you aren't P5, you don't really count, was the reward being a slot in a new, low rate bowl game against a MAC team. Temple deserved better, the system though doesn't provide it and never will.

I was completely happy with Temple's bowl slot. Toledo was a very good opponent. I much rather have played them than some 6-6 slept from a power conference.

Hosting Notre Dame (Game Day) and Penn State, playing in the conference title game on ABC made for an excellent season. Beat Houston and we play FSU in New Years 6 game.

[Gangtackle11]

The AAC is a good FBS conference not like some G5 conferences that really more FCS+

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

The SoCon did for a little while then when they didn't have to some bitched about the commish getting them PBS because PBS was so below them. Not talking about pwns there.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The AAC is a good FBS conference not like some G5 conferences that really more FCS+

It's a better in football than in basketball which is something I never thought I'd say 2-3 years ago. The coaching is much better on the football side....

[Twentysix]

The SoCon did for a little while then when they didn't have to some bitched about the commish getting them PBS because PBS was so below them. Not talking about pwns there.

I do remember them being on PBS. But I'm talking about NDSU, the only team I really care about in the FCS. I'm pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I do remember them being on PBS. But I'm talking about NDSU, the only team I really care about in the FCS. I'm pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

I get that. I was trying to help you see where the comment was coming from since I knew the background.

[Thumper 76]

I do remember them being on PBS. But I'm talking about NDSU, the only team I really care about in the FCS. I'm pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/3b9a8318461f0c692e0bd33c2a74e53a.jpg

[BisonFan02]

I do remember them being on PBS. But I'm talking about NDSU, the only team I really care about in the FCS. I'm pretty sure we don't pay to be on TV.

...and I think you are wrong. NDSU buys the TV time for statewide NBC, but gets to keep all of the ad revenue (nets above the cost I imagine). Someone will have to confirm. (yeah...a technicality...but TECHNICALLY, NDSU "pays" for TV time).

EDIT: Oh, and for the bold.... www.bisonville.com enjoy.

[TheKingpin28]

...and I think you are wrong. NDSU buys the TV time for statewide NBC, but gets to keep all of the ad revenue (nets above the cost I imagine). Someone will have to confirm. (yeah...a technicality...but TECHNICALLY, NDSU "pays" for TV time).

EDIT: Oh, and for the bold.... www.bisonville.com (http://www.bisonville.com) enjoy.

That is for some fun time reading. BEWARE: Forgetting to bring your Green and Gold glasses can cause for some tough reading.

I do enjoy going over there to see what is being said for recruiting and other Bison football related material that might not be discussed here, but man some of the stuff that is said, is beyond homerism

[catamount man]

The SoCon digital network is light years better than PBS plus you get to hear your radio announcers than the guys PBS paid to call the game. GO CATS!!!

[BisonFan02]

That is for some fun time reading. BEWARE: Forgetting to bring your Green and Gold glasses can cause for some tough reading.

I do enjoy going over there to see what is being said for recruiting and other Bison football related material that might not be discussed here, but man some of the stuff that is said, is beyond homerism

Don't get me wrong...there is definitely a place for both and I post at both....its just my post count is MUCH higher here than over there...and that isn't an accident. I'm with you there...

[Twentysix]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/3b9a8318461f0c692e0bd33c2a74e53a.jpg

http://cdn.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/shutterstock_158512502-e1405977565370.jpg

[TheKingpin28]

Don't get me wrong...there is definitely a place for both and I post at both....its just my post count is MUCH higher here than over there...and that isn't an accident. I'm with you there...

I haven't signed up over there since I just enjoy browsing and reading the forums, but there is a reason why I enjoy posting and staying over here. Nothing against BVille at all, I just enjoy a wide variety of discussion that allows for non mainstream views about one's own team. I know my views do not always reflect what BisoNation might agree with, but they are my own. I just hope I get to meet some of you guys this coming summer/season. I only know IBY and it is since he is 1 year older than me and we have mutual friends.

[POD Knows]

Don't get me wrong...there is definitely a place for both and I post at both....its just my post count is MUCH higher here than over there...and that isn't an accident. I'm with you there...

Does Bville have a political board so I could spread the love over there as well? Actually, I probably need to stay off of that board, I know too many of those people and some of them know where I live. Nevermind.

[Twentysix]

Does Bville have a political board so I could spew the love over there as well? Actually, I probably need to stay off of that board, I know too many of those people and some of them know where I live. Nevermind.

I don't think they allow politics.

[BisonFan02]

Does Bville have a political board so I could spread the love over there as well? Actually, I probably need to stay off of that board, I know too many of those people and some of them know where I live. Nevermind.

Politics are only allowed over there if you toe the line of hating Rob Port and pat each others on the back about certain things....but no, I wouldn't even attempt it.

[Twentysix]

Politics are only allowed over there if you toe the line of hating Rob Port and pat each others on the back about certain things....but no, I wouldn't even attempt it.

Hmm, I do hate that guy too.

[BisonFan02]

Hmm, I do hate that guy too.

It was just one example....there are others of a certain persuasion. xthumbsupx

[TheKingpin28]

Whose Rob Port? I only heard that Tony shut the boards down before, but not sure why? Did this guy cause it?

[POD Knows]

I don't think they allow politics.

I have no intention of going on Bville, I want people to hate me across America. The audience is too limited at BVille.

[POD Knows]

Politics are only allowed over there if you toe the line of hating Rob Port and pat each others on the back about certain things....but no, I wouldn't even attempt it.

Not going to join Bville, too boring.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Going back to where this thread began, I was speaking with my neighbor this weekend. His father was a high level ODU administrator, very recently retired. He said that there is some serious buyer's remorse on FBS football among administration at ODU because their costs are spiraling out of control and revenues just aren't there.

[RootinFerDukes]

Going back to where this thread began, I was speaking with my neighbor this weekend. His father was a high level ODU administrator, very recently retired. He said that there is some serious buyer's remorse on FBS football among administration at ODU because their costs are spiraling out of control and revenues just aren't there.

This is the main reason why JMU has been extremely hesitant to go. That and our president is too afraid to make the big boy decisions.
It's okay though. Odu gets to host five some odd P5 programs without stadium plans advancing as quickly as was originally planned. Let's hope those games don't fall through.

[dgtw]

Going back to where this thread began, I was speaking with my neighbor this weekend. His father was a high level ODU administrator, very recently retired. He said that there is some serious buyer's remorse on FBS football among administration at ODU because their costs are spiraling out of control and revenues just aren't there.

Really? I lurk on the C-USA board on cnbbs (or whatever it's called) and they claim ODU is the strongest program in the league and worry what will happen if they go to the AAC.

[clenz]

Really? I lurk on the C-USA board on cnbbs (or whatever it's called) and they claim ODU is the strongest program in the league and worry what will happen if they go to the AAC.
It's amazing the face that gets put on by a school, person, business, etc... when they realize they made a terrible move but can't admit it for many reasons.

I'm not saying that happened here, though it's believable. I've worked for places that have made major shifts in business strategy that failed but when talked about publicly it was all "things are awesome"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Going back to where this thread began, I was speaking with my neighbor this weekend. His father was a high level ODU administrator, very recently retired. He said that there is some serious buyer's remorse on FBS football among administration at ODU because their costs are spiraling out of control and revenues just aren't there.

Man, who could have predicted this?

ODU had a battle over about a 10 week period when ODU dangled the C-USA invite in front of them, and the ones who wanted a slower approach lost. At the time it seemed like a decent idea - ODU was selling out at the FCS level (even playoff games) and they were certainly well poised to be the 3rd best public school in Virginia. Since then it's been a massive struggle. The % of athletics spending cap on athletics for VA schools, even with modifications to the law, seems to be a major long-term issue for them.

[RootinFerDukes]

Really? I lurk on the C-USA board on cnbbs (or whatever it's called) and they claim ODU is the strongest program in the league and worry what will happen if they go to the AAC.

You do realize you have to take biased, homer comments on message boards with a huge grain of salt? Their fans will claim they're the biggest deal in college athletics up until the day their program is dropped.
Their heads are the size of watermelons right now and they don't even have the success on the field to back up their talk.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Really? I lurk on the C-USA board on cnbbs (or whatever it's called) and they claim ODU is the strongest program in the league and worry what will happen if they go to the AAC.

The reality of the CUSA's present state is that ODU may be in the strongest position among conference members. That doesn't make their situation any more sustainable.

[Go Green]

It's amazing the face that gets put on by a school, person, business, etc... when they realize they made a terrible move but can't admit it for many reasons.

I'm not saying that happened here, though it's believable. I've worked for places that have made major shifts in business strategy that failed but when talked about publicly it was all "things are awesome"

Gavin Belson from Silicon Valley (Season 2) says "hey!" :)

[clenz]

CUSA announced their new deal...

They will be showing games beIN tv....owned by the same company as Al Jezera.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/dwindling-c-usa-tv-deal-reportedly-includes-bein-sports-212636675.html


Conference USA’s new television deal reportedly spans four networks, but its value is expected to significantly decline.Chuck Landon of the Huntington Herald-Dispatch (http://www.herald-dispatch.com/sports/marshall_sports/chuck-landon-c-usa-tv-revenue-in-decline-even-with/article_7a9d2f78-6746-5ded-acdb-0eae5ec8867f.html)broke down the situation in a weekend column, becoming the latest to report that ESPN has re-entered the picture – for a mere five games. The league parted ways with ESPN back in 2011, opting for a five-year deal with Fox Sports instead. But now, Landon reports, Fox “has pulled completely out.” That does not leave many appealing options, and the league, Landon wrote, is “desperate.”

So where will C-USA turn? From the Herald-Dispatch:

ESPN will get its pick of the first five C-USA games. Marshall University is expected to appear in one of those games. Then, CBS Sports Network will receive the second five choices.

The league's third television partner is the American Sports Network, which is expected to televise 15 to 20 games. There is also a fourth television partner, according to sources, that hasn't been announced. What also hasn't been announced is some games will be played on Thursday and Friday nights.

It was revealed Monday that the fourth network involved is beIN Sports, a cable network that normally focuses on soccer (Spain’s La Liga and Italy’s Serie A, specifically). The network reportedly revealed the news in a presentation with advertisers on Monday and later confirmed via press release.

In its release, the network, which reportedly averaged “just 15,000 total-day viewers” during this year’s first quarter, says college basketball is also involved. The release does not specifically mention Conference USA.

Additional first-time-ever properties of U.S. College Football and Basketball were also announced helping to amplify beIN SPORTS’ domestic offerings. Both will be available on the English Channel and streamed live on beIN SPORTS CONNECT starting this Fall. Moreover, to align with our college sports programming, the network will be launching a Radio/TV show that will embrace the social nature of sports and engage fans thru Social TV.

As for C-USA’s contract as a whole, Landon reported it’s slated to be $7 million “at the most,” a significant reduction in allocated money from previous years.

From the Herald-Dispatch

At the most, C-USA's new television contract could be worth $7 million. That would lead to revenue distribution of $538,400 per school. At the worst, C-USA's new pact could be in the neighborhood of $5.5 million. Divide that 13 ways and it calculates to $423,000 per school.

Either way, it's a far cry from the $1.1 million Marshall and each of the other C-USA schools had been receiving annually.


That creates a real financial crunch for everyone. Yet, C-USA commissioner Judy MacLeod says although television revenue will decrease, the number of televised league games will increase. I think she meant that as a positive, but I hope MacLeod realizes this means the value of a C-USA football game has plummeted.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Honestly, that beIN sports isn't all that bad a landing place for C-USA football. beIN is becoming the go-to place for USMNT soccer and a lot of different international sports. It's kind of like NBC Sports Network. I think it's better than ESPN3gatory.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

POD, dback, the post are in the junk pile over in the smack section. Have fun over there if you want.xthumbsupx

[dbackjon]

POD, dback, the post are in the junk pile over in the smack section. Have fun over there if you want.xthumbsupx


Hey POD - you are working on Montana! :)


Gotta it Ursus. Don't go ralph on us!

[POD Knows]

POD, dback, the post are in the junk pile over in the smack section. Have fun over there if you want.xthumbsupx

Hey Ursus, what is the record for getting "migrated" to the junk pile in one day. I got to be close, this is twice in the last couple days. BTW, that Smack thread is GOLD. It contains the best conversation I have seen on this site.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Hey Ursus, what is the record for getting "migrated" to the junk pile in one day. I got to be close, this is twice in the last couple days. BTW, that Smack thread is GOLD. It contains the best conversation I have seen on this site.

Yes, there is a ton of gold to be mined out of that one for sure. If people wanted to make use of the smack thread there could be more fun like that but most of what goes on here in the last 5 years is very low brow dumb **** when it could be crafted much better than the playground crap we normally get on the regular FCS board. Anyway, you ha ve a couple days in a row but you'll know if you are getting close enough to topping an annoying list if this board get shuts off for a while. You ain't there yet. xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Hey POD - you are working on Montana! :)


Gotta it Ursus. Don't go ralph on us!

If you don't go Travis on me then we got a deal.:D

Alright, let's allow the thread to drift back to it's natural path now.

[BisonFan02]

Yes, there is a ton of gold to be mined out of that one for sure. If people wanted to make use of the smack thread there could be more fun like that but most of what goes on here in the last 5 years is very low brow dumb **** when it could be crafted much better than the playground crap we normally get on the regular FCS board. Anyway, you ha ve a couple days in a row but you'll know if you are getting close enough to topping an annoying list if this board get shuts off for a while. You ain't there yet. xlolx

Its definitely a dark era if Bike boy and I are co-smack champs. xlolx

[Twentysix]

...and I think you are wrong. NDSU buys the TV time for statewide NBC, but gets to keep all of the ad revenue (nets above the cost I imagine). Someone will have to confirm. (yeah...a technicality...but TECHNICALLY, NDSU "pays" for TV time).

I think you are wrong. Otherwise we have the worst media deal ever.


The football television agreement with KVLY-TV and all other NBC affiliates in North Dakota is for three years and $1.2 million


http://www.gobison.com/news/2016/3/29/general-north-dakota-state-announces-media-rights-agreements.aspx

NDSU football TV rights on NBC ND alone is worth $400,000/yr

[Twentysix]

Yeah confirmed via an interview "In terms of professional sports in the media area they are second to only the Vikings. They are worth every penny we are paying them."

I think that means NDSU would lose money by joining CUSA (Of course there is no such desire, just making a point)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think you are wrong. Otherwise we have the worst media deal ever.




http://www.gobison.com/news/2016/3/29/general-north-dakota-state-announces-media-rights-agreements.aspx

NDSU football TV rights on NBC ND alone is worth $400,000/yr

That honestly seems low to me. Do you by chance know if there is a split via conference that needs to be divided up? I know UM has to give over 80% when we go on the road and have someone we are contracted with provide the convereage is what I'm asking.

That was from years ago though so it may have even changed by now.

[Twentysix]

That honestly seems low to me. Do you by chance know if there is a split via conference that needs to be divided up? I know UM has to give over 80% when we go on the road and have someone we are contracted with provide the convereage is what I'm asking.

That was from years ago though so it may have even changed by now.

ND nbc travels and provides all the coverage for tge games they produce. They will not do iowa or csu this coming season. One is espn the other big ten network.

[Twentysix]

No idea if the other teams get money from ndsu. But it's a lot more than "ndsu buys tv time."

[ursus arctos horribilis]

No idea if the other teams get money from ndsu. But it's a lot more than "ndsu buys tv time."

I'm not sure but I'm getting a feeling the way you are posting that you think I was tearing down NDSU's deal? I didn't make that statement and am just inquiring if the MVFC deal is similar to what the BSC does.

[Twentysix]

No it doesn't seem that way at all. I do not know the financials involved in the mvfc espn3 deal.

[Twentysix]

It was a bison fan proclaiming ndsu has to pay to be on tv, which suggest a really low evaluation of the value of his own teams product imo.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It was a bison fan proclaiming ndsu has to pay to be on tv, which suggest a really low evaluation of the value of his own teams product imo.

Well actually, I think it could show that a school was willing to buy time because they know their product will bring in good, or very good ad buys. I see why it would be looked at like that but I wouldn't see it that way.

[BisonFan02]

It was a bison fan proclaiming ndsu has to pay to be on tv, which suggest a really low evaluation of the value of his own teams product imo.

Not if they received 100% of the ad revenue....I will have to go digging it appears to find it.

[Twentysix]

Not if they received 100% of the ad revenue....I will have to go digging it appears to find it.

I already posted the TV deal its $1.2 million over 3 years for NDSU football on NBC ND.

[BisonFan02]

I already posted the TV deal its $1.2 million over 3 years for NDSU football on NBC ND.

Yes....I see that. What was it before this new contract?

[Twentysix]

Yes....I see that. What was it before this new contract?

Great question, post it when you find it.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/old-dominion/football/conference-usa-tv-revenue-to-plummet-to-million-per-year/article_1dd435cb-800e-574d-be6d-0afa42d957e7.html

CUSA gets $2.8 Million dollars a year, coming to about $200k a year per team. That means between TV money and CFP payouts CUSA will most likely get less money per school than the Sun Belt.

Yay Media Markets! xlolx

[BisonFan02]

http://pilotonline.com/sports/college/old-dominion/football/conference-usa-tv-revenue-to-plummet-to-million-per-year/article_1dd435cb-800e-574d-be6d-0afa42d957e7.html

CUSA gets $2.8 Million dollars a year, coming to about $200k a year per team. That means between TV money and CFP payouts CUSA will most likely get less money per school than the Sun Belt.

Yay Media Markets! xlolx

YAY! The Sun Belt sucks less than someone else!!! YAY! xlolx

[Anthony215]

After doing some research I think App State might be able to finagle their way into the AAC if they do indeed lose 2 teams to the Big 12 and the ACC raids them of 2 more teams. Initially I had ODU, Marshall & Rice all being swept by the AAC but App State has a strong fan base in Boone and a great on field product as well averaging over 21k in attendance at home.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Things will certainly get more interesting if the Big 12 does become the 5th Super Conference out of the P5. If they add 2-4 more from the top of the G5 then will some FCS teams think to move up? I mean if there are some openings in some of the upper tier G5 conferences that they think they can fill I would think so. Would a conference like the AAC invite NDSU?

Things are just now getting interesting for sure.

[smilo]

Things will certainly get more interesting if the Big 12 does become the 5th Super Conference out of the P5. If they add 2-4 more from the top of the G5 then will some FCS teams think to move up? I mean if there are some openings in some of the upper tier G5 conferences that they think they can fill I would think so. Would a conference like the AAC invite NDSU?

Things are just now getting interesting for sure.

Nah, NDSU is MAC or bust.

If C-USA ends with 10, 11, or 13 teams, they may get EKU and/or JMU. That's probably it for this round unfortunately. Now, if Buffalo left the MAC, that would be another story...but I still don't think so in that longshot scenario. NDSU may not even be the first choice. Those other two might still be angling for that. Even better geography.

[RootinFerDukes]

Nah, NDSU is MAC or bust.

If C-USA ends with 10, 11, or 13 teams, they may get EKU and/or JMU. That's probably it for this round unfortunately. Now, if Buffalo left the MAC, that would be another story...but I still don't think so in that longshot scenario. NDSU may not even be the first choice. Those other two might still be angling for that. Even better geography.

If CUSA and/or the MAC lose enough members and are willing to consider an FCS program, JMU is the top choice for both conferences. The question is would they go FCS with teams in the sun belt. Either way, I doubt any teams leave the MAC, so we're really talking CUSA here.

[Laker]

Map of the Big 8 and potential new members. I think the Florida State emblem should be replaced by a UCF one- I can't see the Noles leaving the ACC for this mess.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn8PT-cUMAAJItT.jpg:large

[NDSUKurt]

Map of the Big 8 and potential new members. I think the Florida State emblem should be replaced by a UCF one- I can't see the Noles leaving the ACC for this mess.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cn8PT-cUMAAJItT.jpg:large

The Big 12 Conference has "good" options, but no "home run" options like when the Big Ten snagged Nebraska.

I personally think it will begin as 2 teams, but eventually end up with 4 teams.

The top order I see is:

1. Cincinnati - a solid program in a decent state for recruiting, was in the BCS before, could make West Virginia a "travel partner"
2. Memphis - very little football history, but lots of basketball history, in Tennessee makes "inroads" on SEC territory, and has lots of money from Fed Ex

Then it is a mess
1. BYU - solid program with lots of money and followers, but has religious "baggage" for no Sunday games, Mountain time zone hurts
2. Houston - solid program with a new stadium, but is already in Texas where there are 4 teams in the Big 12
3. Colorado State - middle level program with recent success, a new stadium, and would return Big 12 to Colorado for television and recruiting
4. Central Florida/South Florida - middle level programs (at best) in a great recruiting state and television markets, but has no "travel partner
5. UConn - middle level program, has history of BCS, but is major outlier for travel
6. Northern Illinois - upper level mid major program, has had BCS experience, would be new state for recruiting and television, but has the stigma of being a MAC program
7. ECU and SMU - really? you cannot be serious

[BisonFan02]

The Big 12 Conference has "good" options, but no "home run" options like when the Big Ten snagged Nebraska.

I personally think it will begin as 2 teams, but eventually end up with 4 teams.

The top order I see is:

1. Cincinnati - a solid program in a decent state for recruiting, was in the BCS before, could make West Virginia a "travel partner"
2. Memphis - very little football history, but lots of basketball history, in Tennessee makes "inroads" on SEC territory, and has lots of money from Fed Ex

Then it is a mess
1. BYU - solid program with lots of money and followers, but has religious "baggage" for no Sunday games, Mountain time zone hurts
2. Houston - solid program with a new stadium, but is already in Texas where there are 4 teams in the Big 12
3. Colorado State - middle level program with recent success, a new stadium, and would return Big 12 to Colorado for television and recruiting
4. Central Florida/South Florida - middle level programs (at best) in a great recruiting state and television markets, but has no "travel partner
5. UConn - middle level program, has history of BCS, but is major outlier for travel
6. Northern Illinois - upper level mid major program, has had BCS experience, would be new state for recruiting and television, but has the stigma of being a MAC program
7. ECU and SMU - really? you cannot be serious

That's a throwback to the SW conference days and the city of Dallas.

[clenz]

Cinci, Memphis, BYU and Colorado....not CSU

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The Big XII expansion could solidify Conference USA's place as the worst FBS conference. No one in the Sun Belt except for maybe Texas State is going to join them if they lose teams like Southern Miss, Marshall, and La Tech, and none of the MAC teams are going to want to join that dumpster fire.


After doing some research I think App State might be able to finagle their way into the AAC if they do indeed lose 2 teams to the Big 12 and the ACC raids them of 2 more teams. Initially I had ODU, Marshall & Rice all being swept by the AAC but App State has a strong fan base in Boone and a great on field product as well averaging over 21k in attendance at home.

Georgia Southern is right on their tail in attendance in spite of having to play more weekday home games and not having home opponents that are as attractive. We have pretty much closed the gap with them in terms of facilities and budget as well and are arguably located in a more valuable state.

Truthfully though, both teams would have the lowest athletic budgets in the AAC by a wide margin and both are woefully inadequate in basketball to get invited.


Cinci, Memphis, BYU and Colorado....not CSU

You think Colorado would leave the Pac-12 to go the Big 12?

[tigonian02]

Nah, NDSU is MAC or bust.

If C-USA ends with 10, 11, or 13 teams, they may get EKU and/or JMU. That's probably it for this round unfortunately. Now, if Buffalo left the MAC, that would be another story...but I still don't think so in that longshot scenario. NDSU may not even be the first choice. Those other two might still be angling for that. Even better geography.

If cusa ends with 10 teams, they're not expanding further. The money gets divided if any other teams are added. But if at 11 or 13, it's possible they will. In all of these scenarios, they may be in an even worse predicament. Cusa just took in 2 new FCS start up and another fairly new football program in ODU. As far as teams in the Sunbelt are concerned, Texas State is the only team that would easily decide to make that move (to be with their Texas brethren), with GaState being a close second. Now that the money and prestige are gone, everyone else in the Belt will have to be seriously coerced to come off of that 4 million in entry and exit fees, especially if cusa lose any of USM, Marshall, or Rice, or newcomer ODU.

[Twentysix]

I think they will take Colorado State. I would be very surprised if this finishes and they don't take CSU.

Memphis, Cincinati, Colorado State, Uconn.

BYU should be a home run choice, but they aren't for obvious reasons, and no matter how good Boise gets at football they are just a flaming trashcan of a school and that will always hold them back. Wyoming will be in the BigXII before BSU.

[tigonian02]

Cinci, Memphis, BYU and Colorado....not CSU

No chance Colorado leaves stability in the PAC-12.

[RootinFerDukes]

One thing no one seems to be mentioning online is that if CSU is taken, that's a mwc opening. UTEP has been begging to get in that conference and that would create a western cusa opening. They could decide to shift focus more eastern to try and somewhat regionalize.

[Twentysix]

FSU seems really unlikely, I could see the texas schools...

[tigonian02]

One thing no one seems to be mentioning online is that if CSU is taken, that's a mwc opening. UTEP has been begging to get in that conference and that would create a western cusa opening. They could decide to shift focus more eastern to try and somewhat regionalize.

Yeah that's a possibility. But Texas State from what I heard would do whatever it takes to grab that spot should it open.

[tigonian02]

FSU seems really unlikely, I could see the texas schools...

Lol the ACC just got their own network. FSU is pretty much locked in for the ride and barring something crazy happening, isn't going anywhere that's not named SEC.

[Laker]

You think Colorado would leave the Pac-12 to go the Big 12?

Colorado State, yes. Colorado- no way.

Same with Arkansas coming back. Won't happen.

[RootinFerDukes]

Yeah that's a possibility. But Texas State from what I heard would do whatever it takes to grab that spot should it open.

Yes but rice is also likely gone to the AAC. What remains in Texas? Unt and utsa? I hear utsa hates Texas state and doesn't support adding them. They'd have to convince more eastern schools to let them in and with little history with Texas state, what they want and what they get may be two very different things.
They just took a massive tv deal hit and networks are dropping cusa. They just signed a deal with BeIN sports lol.
They SHOULD put less focus on markets this time around.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The Big 12 Conference has "good" options, but no "home run" options like when the Big Ten snagged Nebraska.

I personally think it will begin as 2 teams, but eventually end up with 4 teams.

The top order I see is:

1. Cincinnati - a solid program in a decent state for recruiting, was in the BCS before, could make West Virginia a "travel partner"
2. Memphis - very little football history, but lots of basketball history, in Tennessee makes "inroads" on SEC territory, and has lots of money from Fed Ex

Then it is a mess
1. BYU - solid program with lots of money and followers, but has religious "baggage" for no Sunday games, Mountain time zone hurts
2. Houston - solid program with a new stadium, but is already in Texas where there are 4 teams in the Big 12
3. Colorado State - middle level program with recent success, a new stadium, and would return Big 12 to Colorado for television and recruiting
4. Central Florida/South Florida - middle level programs (at best) in a great recruiting state and television markets, but has no "travel partner
5. UConn - middle level program, has history of BCS, but is major outlier for travel
6. Northern Illinois - upper level mid major program, has had BCS experience, would be new state for recruiting and television, but has the stigma of being a MAC program
7. ECU and SMU - really? you cannot be serious

The fact that Temple can't even get their name mentioned by ANYONE is an epic failure by our administration. Granted, we just went through a semi-ugly scandal involving our outgoing president. Even before this our name wasn't being tossed around. Thankfully the nonsense with President Theobold was handled swiftly and correctly. In the grand scheme of things it could have been worse relative what a lot of other schools face.

Our basketball team is regular tournament participants with a long history of success and integrity, the football program has been nationally relevant since Golden got things going and our academics are P5 worthy. Plus, we're located in one of the largest media markets in the country. Our biggest hurdle continues to be alumni apathy towards to athletics.

If the AAC loses two I want Marshall and (??). The Thundering Herd would give the league a name brand football program and help bridge the geography of the AAC should Cincinnati be one of the schools that bolts. I can't see the AAC going the FCS call-up route.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think they will take Colorado State. I would be very surprised if this finishes and they don't take CSU.

Memphis, Cincinati, Colorado State, Uconn.

BYU should be a home run choice, but they aren't for obvious reasons, and no matter how good Boise gets at football they are just a flaming trashcan of a school and that will always hold them back. Wyoming will be in the BigXII before BSU.

Boise State's academics at this point are probably better than Memphis. Memphis is still considered a tier 3 school iirc. Honestly I don't know what is holding Boise State back at this point? 10-15 years ago it was nothing more than a glorified 4 years junior college. However, they experienced the "Flutie Effect" thus their applicant pool's quality has increased ten-fold over the years. Still, they certainly have room to grow. The location excuse doesn't fly either. Boise is a legit metro area with a perfectly fine infrastructure. It's easily capable of supporting a P5 school. Hell, they've been hosting NCAA tournament games for decades.

Is it the fact their football program has a history of admitting super sketchy characters from California? Apparently they would take all the kids the PAC12 schools wouldn't even touch. Peterson's ethics were certainly questioned when he was there.

[Twentysix]

Boise State's academics at this point are probably better than Memphis. Memphis is still considered a tier 3 school iirc. Honestly I don't know what is holding Boise State back at this point? 10-15 years ago it was nothing more than a glorified 4 years junior college. However, they experienced the "Flutie Effect" thus their applicant pool's quality has increased ten-fold over the years. Still, they certainly have room to grow. The location excuse doesn't fly either. Boise is a legit metro area with a perfectly fine infrastructure. It's easily capable of supporting a P5 school. Hell, they've been hosting NCAA tournament games for decades.

Is it the fact their football program has a history of admitting super sketchy characters from California? Apparently they would take all the kids the PAC12 schools wouldn't even touch. Peterson's ethics were certainly questioned when he was there.

I don't know what academic metric you are using but you should share it. Boise needs to offer something like 15 more types of PhDs before it is even a doctoral institution... I would be interested which current P5 school you would say is academically ranked similar to Boise. Mississippi State seems like it is the worst P5 school academically, Boise isn't even remotely in their league. (if memphis is admitted to the BigXII they would become the worst ranked P5 academically, but they are still WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than Boise).

Edit: Mississippi State is the worst ranked P5 schools.

As far as the P5s go the BigXII and the SEC are the really ****ty academics leagues, but even their weakest members are quite a bit above Boise.

[RootinFerDukes]

Wvu, tx tech and louisville are other academic dregs of the P5. Anyone that applies gets in kind of schools.
If Houston joins, they'll be right there at the bottom too.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I don't know what academic metric you are using but you should share it. Boise needs to offer something like 15 more types of PhDs before it is even a doctoral institution... I would be interested which current P5 school you would say is academically ranked similar to Boise. Mississippi State seems like it is the worst P5 school academically, Boise isn't even remotely in their league. (if memphis is admitted to the BigXII they would become the worst ranked P5 academically, but they are still WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better than Boise).

Edit: Mississippi State is the worst ranked P5 schools.

As far as the P5s go the BigXII and the SEC are the really ****ty academics leagues, but even their weakest members are quite a bit above Boise.

I was comparing Memphis's candidacy to Boise State's based on academics. If either one of them gets a P5 invite they would instantly become the lowest ranked school academically.

[Twentysix]

I was comparing Memphis's candidacy to Boise State's based on academics. If either one of them gets a P5 invite they would instantly become the lowest ranked school academically.

While true, Memphis is at least a proper research institute that holds a ranking. Boise isn't even close. They really do have a great football team, but the school is a flaming trashcan when spoken about in academic terms.

If Boise State can get into the BigXII there is honestly no reason why NDSU couldn't. The academic side will always be NDSU's achilles heel for potential P5 membership. You can grow the stadium, grow the fanbase etc, but the academics won't be top 300 world wide without the state closing UND and giving NDSU UND's entire budget.

[Go Green]

Edit: Mississippi State is the worst ranked P5 schools.
.

But its football coaching staff has worked with some pretty bright kids. :)

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2016/07/dartmouth-south.html

[wolfman61]

The Big 12 Conference has "good" options, but no "home run" options like when the Big Ten snagged Nebraska.

I personally think it will begin as 2 teams, but eventually end up with 4 teams.

The top order I see is:

1. Cincinnati - a solid program in a decent state for recruiting, was in the BCS before, could make West Virginia a "travel partner"
2. Memphis - very little football history, but lots of basketball history, in Tennessee makes "inroads" on SEC territory, and has lots of money from Fed Ex

Then it is a mess
1. BYU - solid program with lots of money and followers, but has religious "baggage" for no Sunday games, Mountain time zone hurts
2. Houston - solid program with a new stadium, but is already in Texas where there are 4 teams in the Big 12
3. Colorado State - middle level program with recent success, a new stadium, and would return Big 12 to Colorado for television and recruiting
4. Central Florida/South Florida - middle level programs (at best) in a great recruiting state and television markets, but has no "travel partner
5. UConn - middle level program, has history of BCS, but is major outlier for travel
6. Northern Illinois - upper level mid major program, has had BCS experience, would be new state for recruiting and television, but has the stigma of being a MAC program
7. ECU and SMU - really? you cannot be serious
So UConn is a mid level school? Really? That's a new one to me, a top twenty university, a tier one research university 15 basketball national championships in 20 years. Numerous players in NFL, NBA, WNBA, Major League Baseball, NHL, and Pro Soccer.

[wolfman61]

So UConn is a mid level school? Really? That's a new one to me, a top twenty university, a tier one research university 15 basketball national championships in 20 years. Numerous players in NFL, NBA, WNBA, Major League Baseball, NHL, and Pro Soccer.
That's top twenty public university, sorry new to board.

[mmiller_34]

So UConn is a mid level school? Really? That's a new one to me, a top twenty university, a tier one research university 15 basketball national championships in 20 years. Numerous players in NFL, NBA, WNBA, Major League Baseball, NHL, and Pro Soccer.

Mid level football program.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Mid level football program.

Of all the schools being listed, UConn deserves P5 status more than anyone imo. While football is obviously important, big time hoops matters. In some places far more than football. UConn has a top shelf men's program and a historically dominant women's program. They also have an excellent academic reputation in the Northeast. Their rep now blows UMass out of the water. Plus, the Nutmeg state is one of the most wealthiest in the country.

Football is "just good enough". Given what UConn brings to the table as a whole a so-so team should be enough to satisfy those that value the whole package. Besides, Diaco has them headed in the right direction. They'll compete for the AAC title this year which means they'll be fringe Top 25 worthy imo.

[DFW HOYA]

That's top twenty public university, sorry new to board.

A top public university starts with AAU membership--it is the imprimatur for the highest-level research universities. There are 36 public universities in the AAU and UConn is not one of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Universities#Membership

[Twentysix]

A top public university starts with AAU membership--it is the imprimatur for the highest-level research universities. There are 36 public universities in the AAU and UConn is not one of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Universities#Membership

UConn is the 91st best university in the US and in the 200s world wide. I'm not going to take the time to separate out the privates, but I have a hunch they aren't in the top 20, though they may be kind of close. Even still, UConn is a very good university and of the academic caliber for any of the P5 conferences.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

A top public university starts with AAU membership--it is the imprimatur for the highest-level research universities. There are 36 public universities in the AAU and UConn is not one of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Universities#Membership

And neither is William & Mary which I would consider one of the Top 3 or 4 public schools in the country....

[wolfman61]

And neither is William & Mary which I would consider one of the Top 3 or 4 public schools in the country....
And neither is Notre Dame,and Nebraska lost their AAU status before they joined the Big Ten. OK Uconn's football has really struggled for the last 5 years,that was due to a AD who just mailed it in and hired a well past his prime coach. That's were we suffered.

[clenz]

Welp

Announcement at 5:30 today and schools are to know by 4:30 (all central times)....and this has leaked



https://twitter.com/kagavi/status/788064911473598464

[RootinFerDukes]

Welp, they printed that for nothing.

Dennis Dodd ‏@dennisdoddcbs (https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs) 20s20 seconds ago (https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status/788115773902327812)
Source: No Big 12 expansion. No explanation from B12 per source at expansion hopeful who had talked to Bowlsby. First reported by SI.

[PantherRob82]

Weird.

[BisonFan02]

Trololololo

[Daytripper]

Big 12 is a giant cluster****!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wow, a new Big XII app!

[Twentysix]

And neither is William & Mary which I would consider one of the Top 3 or 4 public schools in the country....

lol, ok.

There are 9 public schools in the University of California that are ranked higher than William and Mary, lol. It is a good school though, no doubt.

The only place that W&M really shines in the rankings is alumni employment. They've got those east coast hookups on lock.

[Go Green]

The only place that W&M really shines in the rankings is alumni employment. They've got those east coast hookups on lock.

Pretty good thing in which to shine.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

lol, ok.

There are 9 public schools in the University of California that are ranked higher than William and Mary, lol. It is a good school though, no doubt.

The only place that W&M really shines in the rankings is alumni employment. They've got those east coast hookups on lock.

I don't buy for a second that California has 9 public schools better than W&M. It's a phenomenal school and brutally difficult to get into.

I was fringe PL material (Lehigh and Fordham) coming out of high school. Yet, I would have had no shot getting into W&M out of state. Likewise with UVA and Michigan. I might have had a better shot at Cornell.

[Twentysix]

Pretty good thing in which to shine.

No doubt. In most people's cases it's probably the only thing that matters.

[Twentysix]

I don't buy for a second that California has 9 public schools better than W&M. It's a phenomenal school and brutally difficult to get into.

I was fringe PL material (Lehigh and Fordham) coming out of high school. Yet, I would have had no shot getting into W&M out of state. Likewise with UVA and Michigan. I might have had a better shot at Cornell.

The tenth campus (merced) is the only one ranked lower than W&M and that school is only 11 years old. California has 12 schools better than William and Mary but only 9 of those 12 are public, the others Cal Tech, USC, and Stanford are private.




Institution Name
College of William and Mary


Native Name
College of William and Mary


Location
USA


World Rank
375


National Rank
128


Quality of Education Rank
378+


Alumni Employment Rank
87


Quality of Faculty Rank
235+


Publications Rank
615


Influence Rank
461


Citations Rank
324


Broad Impact Rank
536


Patents Rank
821


Overall Score
45.47


URL
www.wm.edu


If you had dreams of W&M and but could have gotten into Cornell, you should have gone to Cornell...



Institution Name
Cornell University


Native Name
Cornell University


Location
USA


World Rank
12


National Rank
10


Quality of Education Rank
12


Alumni Employment Rank
19


Quality of Faculty Rank
19


Publications Rank
24


Influence Rank
15


Citations Rank
27


Broad Impact Rank
23


Patents Rank
13


Overall Score
81.74


URL
www.cornell.edu




Only 1 UC is academically ranked better than Cornell.

[Go Green]

No doubt. In most people's cases it's probably the only thing that matters.

Personally, I think the only UC campuses that are even remotely comparably aesthetically pleasing as William and Mary are UCLA, UCSD, and UCSB.

But your mileage may vary.

[Twentysix]

Personally, I think the only UC campuses that are even remotely comparably aesthetically pleasing as William and Mary are UCLA, UCSD, and UCSB.

But your mileage may vary.

Oh god,UCSD has butt ugly 1960s architecture, the immersive nature is definetly its upside.

I've only been to two other campuses, UCLA and UCB.

The ocean basically being on campus at UCSD helps though. Both La Jolla Shores and Torrey Pines.

[Go Green]

The ocean basically being on campus at UCSD helps though. Both La Jolla Shores and Torrey Pines.

That counts.

And let's be honest. Remember "The Sure Thing"? That scene where John Cusack (at Cornell) gets a letter from his buddy (at UCLA) that enclosed picture of a babe who was a legit 8? And the buddy writes on the back of the photo "This is the ugliest girl on campus."

There's some of that with the W&M (and any highly regarded east coast school) vs. UCLA/UCSD/UCSB. If that matters to you, fine. You only live once. :)