What happened to the CAA

[Mattymc727]

2004-2010: 531-436 conference record, 12 FBS wins, 3 national champions, 3 runner ups

2004 (11 teams)- 80-56 Champion
2005 (12 teams)- 76-64
2006 (12 teams)- 78-65 Runner Up
2007 (12 teams)- 75-62 Runner Up
2008 (12 teams)- 81-68 Champion
2009 (12 teams)- 77-65 Champion
2010 (10 teams)- 64-55 Runner Up

2011-2015: 292-276, 3 FBS wins, 0 national champions, 1 runner up

2011 (11 teams)- 63-58
2012 (11 teams)- 58-59
2013 (11 teams)- 74-64 Runner Up
2014 (12 teams)- 77-73
2015 (12 teams)- 20-22

I wasnt totally sure on what statistics to pull, so I started from the top down. i thought this was enough of a visual to see the drop in play already. Im sure someone could spend time looking up OOC stats from the two periods but that was a bit of work. I realize the earlier time period is much longer

[BisonFan02]

NDSU and the MVFC

[RootinFerDukes]

I think it's worth including 2003 as well to reflect the delaware championship team.

What happened? Conference realignment took away UMass and caused overall hardships with Ga State and ODU using us as a stepping stone. It added countless FBS teams in our regions that are taking more recruits away in greater numbers than before. I think FBS teams are getting upset so much that they're making sure to be prepared.
This has also been simultaneous with the rise of EWU and NDSU bringing strength to their conferences. JMU had five mediocre years until we finally got rid of Mickey. Delaware has also had coaching issues and poor performance. UR has had many coaching changes.
We add Elon and URI stays. Both of them have been bottom of the barrel bad lately.

[bluehenbillk]

Delaware is a shadow of its former self. That helps explain the NC & runner up issues & FBS wins. The program is not healthy.

[CFBfan]

Delaware is a shadow of its former self. That helps explain the NC & runner up issues & FBS wins. The program is not healthy.

a new ad comes in and runs a successful and tenured coach out of town and then the program falls apart....what's going on at U Del??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

a new ad comes in and runs a successful and tenured coach out of town and then the program falls apart....what's going on at U Del??

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

[Mattymc727]

URI has been at the bottom during the entire span. Also noted that Northeastern was a bottom feeder in the first part before it dropped, and so was Hofstra. Also Towson seemed to have turned it around for a couple of years and then took a dive. ODU also stepped in and made the conference better in their short tenure.

While its clear the MVFC has stepped up and become the premier FCS conference from 2011-2015, that doesnt really explain the CAA drop-off. These schools recruit very different areas and play against different teams.

[clenz]

I think it's worth including 2003 as well to reflect the delaware championship team.

What happened? Conference realignment took away UMass and caused overall hardships with Ga State and ODU using us as a stepping stone. It added countless FBS teams in our regions that are taking more recruits away in greater numbers than before. I think FBS teams are getting upset so much that they're making sure to be prepared.
This has also been simultaneous with the rise of EWU and NDSU bringing strength to their conferences. JMU had five mediocre years until we finally got rid of Mickey. Delaware has also had coaching issues and poor performance. UR has had many coaching changes.
We add Elon and URI stays. Both of them have been bottom of the barrel bad lately.
Some top programs leave, others stumble a bit and there's enough shuffling with the rest of the conference that no one can pick the slack up.

No one driving the conference to up their game another level.

That's why the MVFC has picked it up across the board. NDSU is forcing everyone to get better, and they are. It's focring NDSU to get better. It's a complete circle. Some day that circle will break, like the CAAs did.

[Mattymc727]

The change really started to happen in 2011. The conference added a team, yet had less wins than the previous year. 2015 is off to another rough year with only a couple contenders.

[jmufan999]

lost UMass
lost ODU (who was good but only there a short while)
Towson got good briefly, then went back to being not so good again
JMU and UD went from very good at times to very mediocre for several years
MVFC, Southland, and Big South all improved

I think those are a few of the reasons, but maybe it's more complicated than that. I think the biggest thing that happened was NDSU simply moving up, joining an already strong conference, and being really good right away. that changed a lot of the landscape.

[2ram]

the PL is going to start competing more for CAA players and dilute the quality of the conference even more i suspect.

without a healthy robertson/villanova, it may be a tough road for the conference this year too, other than a good looking JMU squad. we'll see.

[CasualFan]

Expanded playoffs meant more teams in the playoffs. Before, a 4th or 5th team in the CAA (or other major conferences) got the nod over a clear #1 in a minor conference. With the exception of 2005 and 06, that meant that the CAA wasn't 1/4 of the teams in the playoffs, but only 1/6.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The simple question of "what's happened with the CAA" needs to be explained in three parts.

1. Identity. The CAA used to be the old Yankee conference with some schools down in Virginia. Hofstra and Northeastern were a part of that vision, with both schools added for the expressed purpose of forming a block of great Northeast football from Virginia to Maine. But Hofstra and Northeastern dropped out of football and became basketball schools. This caused an identity crisis in the league that still hasn't been adequately solved. Are they going to focus solely on hoops, or is FCS championship football a priority? It's still unclear.

2. Adding/losing members. When I think of the CAA losing UMass and Georgia State, I think that it's a move that hurt both the CAA and the schools themselves. The moves were ill-advised at best, and may actually lead to the end of football at UMass in the long run. I don't think it's been smooth sledding for ODU either, and the restrictions that the VA legislature has slapped on athletics programs will only make things more challenging. But losing all three certainly had a big impact. ODU fans were an awesome in-state rival for all the CAA teams, home and away. Losing that was a big loss. Similarly, losing UMass hurt UNH and Maine, depriving them of an easy road trip and a good league game.

3. Lack of all-sports members as CAA football members. Sort-of independent of 1), but related. It's a lot easier to project a strong CAA if all the members are looking forward in the right direction in all sports. They are not. Some are looking at becoming FBS. Some want to dominate FCS. Some are A-10 schools that are simply happy to be there. Some are A-East schools that want to play regional competition. These issues were easy to paper over when your league is consistently competing for the FCSNCG. Not really anymore.

[clenz]

3. Lack of all-sports members as CAA football members. Sort-of independent of 1), but related. It's a lot easier to project a strong CAA if all the members are looking forward in the right direction in all sports. They are not. Some are looking at becoming FBS. Some want to dominate FCS. Some are A-10 schools that are simply happy to be there. Some are A-East schools that want to play regional competition. These issues were easy to paper over when your league is consistently competing for the FCSNCG. Not really anymore.
This is key.

It's why a healthy MVC and Summit are needed for a healthy MVFC.

[wmmii]

W&M had poor luck with QB injuries and was down for a couple of years. Conference realignments have impacted as noted above. Coaching changes at Delaware, Richmond and JMU have impacted the programs and to a less extend the Defensive Coordinator leave at W&M. Agree with the comments above on Delaware and JMU but think you should look at the number of playoff teams and there record in the playoffs over these years. Number above are focused on National Champs and are bias due to the great run NDSU has had!

[tribe_pride]

The simple question of "what's happened with the CAA" needs to be explained in three parts.

1. Identity. The CAA used to be the old Yankee conference with some schools down in Virginia. Hofstra and Northeastern were a part of that vision, with both schools added for the expressed purpose of forming a block of great Northeast football from Virginia to Maine. But Hofstra and Northeastern dropped out of football and became basketball schools. This caused an identity crisis in the league that still hasn't been adequately solved. Are they going to focus solely on hoops, or is FCS championship football a priority? It's still unclear.

2. Adding/losing members. When I think of the CAA losing UMass and Georgia State, I think that it's a move that hurt both the CAA and the schools themselves. The moves were ill-advised at best, and may actually lead to the end of football at UMass in the long run. I don't think it's been smooth sledding for ODU either, and the restrictions that the VA legislature has slapped on athletics programs will only make things more challenging. But losing all three certainly had a big impact. ODU fans were an awesome in-state rival for all the CAA teams, home and away. Losing that was a big loss. Similarly, losing UMass hurt UNH and Maine, depriving them of an easy road trip and a good league game.

3. Lack of all-sports members as CAA football members. Sort-of independent of 1), but related. It's a lot easier to project a strong CAA if all the members are looking forward in the right direction in all sports. They are not. Some are looking at becoming FBS. Some want to dominate FCS. Some are A-10 schools that are simply happy to be there. Some are A-East schools that want to play regional competition. These issues were easy to paper over when your league is consistently competing for the FCSNCG. Not really anymore.

Agree with 1 and 3 as they are related but not really with 2 for football (basketball - moreso)

With respect to 2, losing UMass (and the other northeast football schools of Hofstra and Northeastern) hurt but Ga. State in the CAA was a failed experiment for both the CAA and the school. It was better that they were not there and they never fit in the CAA well. They also never contributed to wins for the conference and were only in the football conference for 1 year. They were and still are horrible. ODU (for football) joined the CAA when the CAA started going downhill (2011) so they never had a chance to join in the CAA success - but are taking away good recruits that could have otherwise gone to CAA schools.

[Tribal]

Simple answer: GA State

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[KPSUL]

ODU was a strong team, but they never enhanced the CAA playoff results. In fact they were a disappointment come the playoffs.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

To me the reshuffling of the conference has had a major impact on competition. Prior to 2010 I felt like the CAA itself prepared its playoff teams for deep runs. Now, it seems like only a few teams are good enough to be considered real tests. The conference has lost its depth and it gets exposed in the post season. I think the same thing has happened to the SoCon.

[RabidRabbit]

NDSU and the MVFC

And combined Big Sky and great West. CAA also lost superstars UMass, Old Dominion, and replaced with Albany, Elon, much weaker teams.

[bluehenbillk]

a new ad comes in and runs a successful and tenured coach out of town and then the program falls apart....what's going on at U Del??

To be brief, yes a new AD fired former coach KC Keeler. A majority of fans probably had been fed up with the inconsistency of Keeler's record. No doubt there were "high high's" but there was a lot of year-to-year inconsistency.

Keeler was fired in January, instead of November when most coaches are canned, so it was an extremely quick & narrow search for his replacement - Dave Brock.

Brock has a totally different philosophy than that of Keeler, he wants to build 99.9% thru HS recruiting so what that has done has lead to a tear down of what we had & has hurt the team in areas pretty glaringly.

The bottom line is UD hasn't seen the playoffs since they should've won the whole thing in 2010. That streak will continue this year, next year I'm not beaming with optimism either but I guess we'll see.

I could go on & on but most would probably tune out.

UD also used to get 20,000+ per game (and that was a real #). Nowadays they announce about 15K and in reality have 11-12K in the building per game.

[WMTribe90]

2008
Delaware (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/delaware.htm)
Hofstra (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/hofstra.htm)
James Madison (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/jmu.htm)
Maine (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/maine.htm)
Massachusetts (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/umass.htm)
New Hampshire (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/unh.htm)
Northeastern (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/nu.htm)
Rhode Island (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/uri.htm)
Richmond (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/richmond.htm)
Towson (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/towson.htm)
Villanova (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/vu.htm)
William and Mary (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/wm.htm)

2015
Delaware
UAlbany
James Madison
Maine
SBU
New Hampshire
Elon
Rhode Island
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William and Mary

Stats can be a bit deceiving. For example, FBS wins are rare to begin with and the number of wins have little to do with the overall strength of the CAA and everything to do with the individual match-ups. Point spread in FBS games would be a better indicator. The last two weeks, JMU beat SMU and WM took UVA to the wire.

I think its more useful to look at large-scale trends. Let's compare the CAA in 2008, at the arguable height of its dominance, to the current 2015 CAA.

Delaware - Brock might need more time, but hard not to argue that firing Keeler was a mistake at this point. UD is young and has talent on the roster, but no denying this program is/has been in decline and is no longer a perennial top 25/playoff team. Gotta believe its only a matter of time before Brock (or the next coach) rights the ship. Down

UAlbany/Hofstra - I think this is close to a lateral trade and will eventually be an upgrade. Hofstra's hay day was in the early 2000's. The program was struggling and no better than current UAlbany squads in the years immediately preceding the program being dropped. UAlbany already has better fan support and more upside than Hofstra. Even

James Madison - Experienced a drop in play at the end of MM era, but this year's squad has a chance to be as good as any JMU squad from back in the day. The talent on the field is certainly appears to be as good as its ever been. Even

Maine - I think everyone thought Maine would be better this year. Maine put together some solid squads between 2004 and 2010. I'd concede Maine has been in a mini-slide. Down Slightly

SBU/UMass - UMass was far removed from its 1998 title run by the time they departed for FBS glory. They we're little better than middle of the pack CAA in their final years. Right about where I'd put SBU right now. I think this is a wash now and SBU has more upside given their location. Even

New Hampshire - There has not been a more consistent winner at the FCS level over the past 15 years (past 5 years NDSU is obviously way better). UNH had arguably there best season ever just last year. It would terribly short-sighted to take this one year's rough start as any indication of decline in the long-term given the track record here. UNH was/is, and likely will remain, a top-level FCS program. Even

Elon/Northeastern - One bad FCS program replaces another bad FCS program. Based on facilities and geography alone, which school has more upside? Easy, Elon. Even

URI/URI - URI is worse than usual this year. I think there's still a bit of NEC reduced schollie hangover effect here. Give URI a couple years and I suspect they'll be back to normal bad (few surprise wins every year) versus extra bad (0-fer CAA). Still hard to make a meaningful case for CAA decline based in any real part on how bad URI is. Down Slightly

UR - Sure, UR has not repeated their NC Title run, but that's an unrealistic gauge. I still see a consistent Top 25/playoff contender of a program. Even

Towson - Improved coaching, improved facilities, improved recruiting, and vastly improved results. Deep playoff run would have been impossible ten years ago. Easily the biggest upgrade in the then versus now comparison. Improved

Villanova - Basically the same comment as UR. Very consistent program under Talley. After UNH, the most consistent winner in CAA over the past 15 years. Still a threat to go deep into the playoffs every year. No significant drop-off in my opinion. Even

William and Mary - Also a consistent program that rarely has a losing season. Had great defenses in recent years while struggling with consistency at QB. I can easily say that with recent facility upgrades, the level of recruit has improved considerably over the past 5 to 6 years. More depth than ever. We've gone 7-5 the last two season to just miss the playoffs. Schedule is brutal this year, but this is our most complete squad, including QB play, since the 2009 semi-final run. Even

I'd say overall the current version of the CAA is roughly on par with the 2008 version. Overall, I'd concede a slight drop-off due to Maine, UD, and a still recovering URI. I'd also concede that we've had fewer elite teams (read top 5), in recent years, but elite teams and NCs are rather poor indicators to assess top to bottom or overall conference strength. I'd also concede the MVFC has surpassed the CAA for now as the dominant FCS conference. However, that has more to do with the rise of the MVFC than the demise of the CAA.

I do get a little annoyed by the doom and gloom talk regarding how diluted or weak the CAA football conference has become. I think it stems primarily from the dissatisfaction of the two largest fan bases (JMU and UD) in recent years. In the case of JMU, it has more to do with their fanbase trying to justify leaving a "watered-down" CAA than any actual decline in their program or the CAA football conference (basketball is a different, but separate story).

I'm sure some will point to ODU as further evidence of the conference's decline, but I'd argue ODU wasn't here long enough to be missed or establish a new/higher baseline. If we're going to use ODU as an example of the CAA's decline, than we need to use GSU as an example of our ascendance (addition through subtraction).

As for the argument that the addition of FBS programs has hurt east coast FCS recruiting, it seems plausible, but I've seen no indication of this for WM. As mentioned above, we are better recruits than ever. Perhaps our pool doesn't overlap with the GSU and ASU of the FBS world as much as some other FCS programs, but I can see no marked drop in talent when I watch CAA football. I'd imagine the increase in population in the US has more than kept pace with the growth in FBS scholarships. More FBS scholarships also equals more possible FCS transfers for those who wade deeply in those waters.

The rise of power programs beyond Montana in the western US has been great for FCS football. I think the slight dip that has occurred in the CAA will be reversed in short order. Rumors of the CAA/FCS football's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

[melloware13]

FBS schools have shifted up throughout the 95 corridor (UMass, Temple, ODU, ECU improving as G5, Rutgers moving to B1G) hurts recruiting. That plus the PL will cause a bit of a challenge, particularly in the Mid-Atlantic. Also, new additions taking a while to adjust since (and including) Georgia State. URI faking to the NEC and back hurt that program, and it will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to win multiple games in a year.

[Mattymc727]

Pretty good analysis WMTribe90. I think it pretty much comes down the the huge fall of Delaware. If Delware was its old 2010 self last year, the CAA would have had its normal 5 teams in. W&M took a brief drop after 2010, but its too strong of a program to last. I dont think its recruiting either. As you stated, UNH is bringing in stronger classes than usual due to UMass and UConn being so bad. UNH had some of New Englands best players choose the Wildcats over those FBS programs, with offers from BC too. UNH has had a rough start, but the CCSU game showed the cats are ready to pick up steam again. Having 3 straight road games and losing your QB hurt them at SBU. Maine was a good team as recently as 2013. Them and Towson seem to have hit the same wall at the same time.

And poor poor Rhody...

[bkrownd]

Once in a while Boston U was pretty good...I still have to remind myself that they dropped football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Once in a while Boston U was pretty good...I still have to remind myself that they dropped football.

I'd be thrilled if they brought it back... to the Patriot League xnodx

[WMTribe90]

The simple question of "what's happened with the CAA" needs to be explained in three parts.

1. Identity. The CAA used to be the old Yankee conference with some schools down in Virginia. Hofstra and Northeastern were a part of that vision, with both schools added for the expressed purpose of forming a block of great Northeast football from Virginia to Maine. But Hofstra and Northeastern dropped out of football and became basketball schools. This caused an identity crisis in the league that still hasn't been adequately solved. Are they going to focus solely on hoops, or is FCS championship football a priority? It's still unclear.

2. Adding/losing members. When I think of the CAA losing UMass and Georgia State, I think that it's a move that hurt both the CAA and the schools themselves. The moves were ill-advised at best, and may actually lead to the end of football at UMass in the long run. I don't think it's been smooth sledding for ODU either, and the restrictions that the VA legislature has slapped on athletics programs will only make things more challenging. But losing all three certainly had a big impact. ODU fans were an awesome in-state rival for all the CAA teams, home and away. Losing that was a big loss. Similarly, losing UMass hurt UNH and Maine, depriving them of an easy road trip and a good league game.

3. Lack of all-sports members as CAA football members. Sort-of independent of 1), but related. It's a lot easier to project a strong CAA if all the members are looking forward in the right direction in all sports. They are not. Some are looking at becoming FBS. Some want to dominate FCS. Some are A-10 schools that are simply happy to be there. Some are A-East schools that want to play regional competition. These issues were easy to paper over when your league is consistently competing for the FCSNCG. Not really anymore.

1) Hogwash. The CAA managed to send two teams to the basketball Final Four in the same timeframe that JMU, UD, Villanova, and UR were winning National Titles. There is no mutual exclusivity here at the conference level. Yes, some individual schools felt the need to prioritize one sport over another, but the CAA Football conference is separate from the rest of the CAA. The mission of the CAA Football Conference remains unchanged. Offer a home for the best east coast FCS football programs to compete under one umbrella.

2) ODU was in the CAA for 3 years I believe. How could their departure be a "big loss". Sure, we can lament what "could have been" with respect to the blossoming in-state rivalries with UR, JMU and WM, but they're little more than a foot note in the history of the conference and soon forgotten. Losing UMass, NU and Hofstra could have destroyed the conference, had the CAA not moved quickly to add SBU, Albany, and bring back URI to sure up the northern tier. The only difference between the CAA in 2008 and the CAA in 2015 is that the conference now stretches into NC. Otherwise, we are back to de facto northern and southern divisions and reasonable travel with plenty of regional rivalries.

3) See #1. Not a big issue. The glue that holds the CAA Football Conference together is the mutual benefit of membership in the premier east coast FCS football conference, national TV exposure, multiple at-large playoff bids, and commitment of members to competing at highest level of FCS (red-shirts, 63 schollies, spring practice, facility upgrades, annual FBS match-ups, etc.). You're naïve or full of wishful thinking if you think this mutually beneficial arrangement is going to fall apart just because the CAA hasn't won a NC in 5 years.

I know your deepest desire is for the CAA to implode, so the PL could actually gain some traction and come out of the CAA's shadow. You almost got your wish a few years back, but we've emerged from a short period of uncertainty and vulnerability and will soon be as strong as ever. JMU's president (much to the consternation of some JMU fans) just signaled that JMU has no interest in offering COA. Hardly the stance of a school looking to move its program to FBS. Also, pretty widely accepted that JMU could have gone to the Sun Belt, but declined. So, unless the CUSA (or maybe the MAC) come knocking, JMU isn't going any where. No other CAA program has legit FBS aspirations in the near term. SBU and Towson are possibilities, but they're not on anybody's short list. The storm has past and we're in a period of relative stability and mild rebuilding.

[centennial]

Recruits- More FBS teams + better recruiting + Patriot League + MAC stealing recruits
Competition- No domination by 1-2 teams forcing everyone else to get better
Coaching- Not as good

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I will respectfully disagree about Albany and SBU as replacements for Hofstra and UMass. UMass won a NC in 1998 and lost to App St in 2006. Hoftra had five playoff appearances from 1995-2001 and some strong offenses on the teams in the mid-2000s. I just have not seen the same level of challenges from Albany and Stony Brook. Are they getting closer? Perhaps, as Stony Brook has made the playoffs, but I think the above analysis is more wearing CAA-colored glasses than really looking at the product on the field and offering a fair comparison of results. I do agree, though, that the fan bases and support for those teams are stronger and could provide a better long-term atmosphere for CAA football.

You may think it's all about justifying FBS, but to most JMU fans it has to do with programs advancing while those that behind us are catching up/surpassing us. It's also a fear that recruiting will water down across the board as others move up and the product we pay for as fans (almost as much of an outlay as some FBS schools) will not hold the same value. I think Delaware is in the same boat, they have just been there for much longer than JMU.

[WMTribe90]

I will respectfully disagree about Albany and SBU as replacements for Hofstra and UMass. UMass won a NC in 1998 and lost to App St in 2006. Hoftra had five playoff appearances from 1995-2001 and some strong offenses on the teams in the mid-2000s. I just have not seen the same level of challenges from Albany and Stony Brook. Are they getting closer? Perhaps, as Stony Brook has made the playoffs, but I think the above analysis is more wearing CAA-colored glasses than really looking at the product on the field and offering a fair comparison of results. I do agree, though, that the fan bases and support for those teams are stronger and could provide a better long-term atmosphere for CAA football.

You may think it's all about justifying FBS, but to most JMU fans it has to do with programs advancing while those that behind us are catching up/surpassing us. It's also a fear that recruiting will water down across the board as others move up and the product we pay for as fans (almost as much of an outlay as some FBS schools) will not hold the same value. I think Delaware is in the same boat, they have just been there for much longer than JMU.

Fair enough. From my perspective, UMass and Hofstra from 2002 to their departure were no better than current Albany and SBU. No doubt in my mind that upside of Albany and SBU are greater than UMass/Hofstra. Obviously historical success puts UMass and Hofstra ahead of the two newcomers, but that gets into a chicken and egg argument IMO. Much easier to achieve that level of success after you're in the conference. No denying Albany and SBU enjoy better fan and institutional support than Hofstra ever did or would have. True answer won't be known for several years yet once these schools have recruited under CAA logo for at least five years.

As to your second point, I have seen no drop off in recruiting at WM, and certainly JMU seems as talented as ever coming off a win at SMU.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Lots of great points. Here are a few more:

1- As it relates to Richmond, the Latrell Scott hiring and subsequent DUI zapped all of our momentum from the NC. It cost us 5 years or more.

2- As mentioned above, Delaware was our flagship and Delaware has some tattered sails.

3- Schools like Monmouth now offering 65 scholarships dilutes the talent pool of FCS caliber players on the east coast.

[lydiabixby]

I seldom post on this forum, preferring to lurk and observe but this is such an informative and well written thread and in particular this post by WMTribe, that I feel spirited to voice my respect. I will make the thread known to the members on the New Hampshire Football Message Board.

[BisonFan02]

I seldom post on this forum, preferring to lurk and observe but this is such an informative and well written thread and in particular this post by WMTribe, that I feel spirited to voice my respect. I will make the thread known to the members on the New Hampshire Football Message Board.

ok

[WMTribe90]

Lots of great points. Here are a few more:

1- As it relates to Richmond, the Latrell Scott hiring and subsequent DUI zapped all of our momentum from the NC. It cost us 5 years or more.

2- As mentioned above, Delaware was our flagship and Delaware has some tattered sails.

3- Schools like Monmouth now offering 65 scholarships dilutes the talent pool of FCS caliber players on the east coast.

With respect to your 3rd point, I was very concerned when the PL decided to offer athletic scholarships and feared WM would lose recruits given that WM and the PL go after a lot the same recruits due to admissions.

Three or four years into PL scholarships and my fears have not materialized. I honestly do not believe we have lost a single scholarship recruit to a PL school. We lose one occasionally to the Ivies due to the academic premium some recruits assign to the Ivies.

I now believe the CAA will maintain its advantage over the PL on the recruiting trail as long as the CAA remains the dominant conference on the grid iron. I know the CAA loses a game here and there to the PL, but any objective recruit knows the CAA is a cut above. I think the FBS games and ability to redshirt also remain as key recruiting advantages over the PL.

This is my perspective as a WM fan and former player. Perhaps fans of other CAA or PL schools can speak to the impact of PL scholarships on their recruiting.

I think people are looking at the addition of PL and additional FBS scholarships and assuming its going to negatively effect their recruiting, as if their school was recruiting against every scholarship program in the country for each recruit. In reality, most recruits are only offered by a handful of schools and quickly narrow choices down to a few based on any number of factors. Winning those battles once you get a recruit on campus is more important than the total number of available scholarships in the country. Not to say the effect is zero, just that its exaggerated IMO.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

To be brief, yes a new AD fired former coach KC Keeler. A majority of fans probably had been fed up with the inconsistency of Keeler's record. No doubt there were "high high's" but there was a lot of year-to-year inconsistency.

Keeler was fired in January, instead of November when most coaches are canned, so it was an extremely quick & narrow search for his replacement - Dave Brock.

Brock has a totally different philosophy than that of Keeler, he wants to build 99.9% thru HS recruiting so what that has done has lead to a tear down of what we had & has hurt the team in areas pretty glaringly.

The bottom line is UD hasn't seen the playoffs since they should've won the whole thing in 2010. That streak will continue this year, next year I'm not beaming with optimism either but I guess we'll see.

I could go on & on but most would probably tune out.

UD also used to get 20,000+ per game (and that was a real #). Nowadays they announce about 15K and in reality have 11-12K in the building per game.

Time will tell on the Brock era, the last two games, while being losses, have given me hope for the future. The youngest team in the FCS playing UNC even for a half was pretty impressive, as was taking Villanova down to the wire, especially considering we don't have a functional passing game.

You're also overstating the attendance woes. Yes, it's down, but it's more in the 17Kish range, at least on good weather days. I was at the Lafayette game this year, and attendance was dismal, but it was also pouring rain. UNC has light attendance for their game against us in the rain this year too, and they're a big name FBS school.

I don't think anyone would argue that Brock has taken longer than desired to get things turned around. That being said, the defense this year is good, the running game is excellent, and the O-Line is showing promise. Losing Plummer, Hollerman, and especially Tinsley next year will hurt, but we keep virtually everyone else. Provided that this team keeps improving, we manage to recruit some receivers, and Walker tunes his skills, next year should be great.

[Catsfan90]

Time will tell on the Brock era, the last two games, while being losses, have given me hope for the future. The youngest team in the FCS playing UNC even for a half was pretty impressive, as was taking Villanova down to the wire, especially considering we don't have a functional passing game.

You're also overstating the attendance woes. Yes, it's down, but it's more in the 17Kish range, at least on good weather days. I was at the Lafayette game this year, and attendance was dismal, but it was also pouring rain. UNC has light attendance for their game against us in the rain this year too, and they're a big name FBS school.

I don't think anyone would argue that Brock has taken longer than desired to get things turned around. That being said, the defense this year is good, the running game is excellent, and the O-Line is showing promise. Losing Plummer, Hollerman, and especially Tinsley next year will hurt, but we keep virtually everyone else. Provided that this team keeps improving, we manage to recruit some receivers, and Walker tunes his skills, next year should be great.

Delaware will be back up and running in no time. Any program with such a history cant be expected to stay down for to long.

[Bisonwinagn]

How do the good years of the CAA compare to the last few years of the MVFC? In other words is the Valley as good now or better than the CAA in it's prime?

[Sitting Bull]

All of the points are ok but I think the whole question is over dramatized.

its not like the CAA isn't still putting teams to the semifinals and finals each year. They just have different helmets (Towson in 2013 and UNH to the semis last year). I think again this year you will have 2-4 teams making runs into the quarters and beyond.

I do think of all the losses, UMass is the one which really had an impact. ODU and GState just weren't part of the football fabric long enough.

Also feel like the CAA has righted the ship nicely though I do agree it's important they work forward on all sports members in the future. Any full addition of UNH, UAlbany or Stony Brook would help. Right now, we have 6 full sports members, just enough to maintain a core base.

[Mattymc727]

How do the good years of the CAA compare to the last few years of the MVFC? In other words is the Valley as good now or better than the CAA in it's prime?

Without knowing the the CAA OOC record in the heydays makes it hard to tell. Last year was quite impressive from the MVFC, not sure the CAA touched that. Yet most of the title run from the MVFC was just NDSU. When the CAA was doing it, there were multiple teams from Delaware (Title/runner up), Richmond (Title), W&M(semifinal), Villanova(title), JMU(title), UMass(runner up) and UNH(playoff streak?). I think the best year for the CAA was 2009. I dont know the OOC record but Nova won the NC and I believe the conference alone had 4 FBS wins (UNH, Nova, Richmond, W&M), 1 overtime loss to Maryland (JMU), and a four point loss to Kansas State (UMass).

[Gangtackle11]

Villanova doesn't lose recruits to PL from what I see. Probably unfair advantage is our academics are on par & football historically better.

[clenz]

The CAA might not be losing top level recruits to the newer FBS and PL schools....

Chances are your losing depth you may have otherwise had and not "knowing it" because your coaches don't even get their foot in the door with them like they used too

[Mattymc727]

Heyday comparison:

CAA 2009: OOC record was 28-14, 4-6 against the FBS, 4 playoff participants (out of 16), 2 semi finalists, National Championship

MVFC 2014: OOC record was 35-12, 2-10 against the FBS, 5 Playoff teams (out of 24), 2 semi finalists, National championship and runner up

Could be argued that the CAA may have had a runner up in 2009 as W&M played Nova in the semifinals where as ISU and NDSU were split up, but its impossible to tell. CAA had a better FBS record, but teams like Northeastern, Towson, and URI hurt the conference OOC record that year. Perhaps the MVFC had a stronger conference in 2014 in terms of depth, where as the CAA had more heavy hitters at the top and complete bottom feeders?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All this denial of CAA schools losing recruits to PL schools leads me to believe that they indeed are losing some. Not a huge number, but enough to make a difference.

[Mattymc727]

All this denial of CAA schools losing recruits to PL schools leads me to believe that they indeed are losing some. Not a huge number, but enough to make a difference.

Except there is proof out there. Fan bases are pretty good at tracking their schools recruiting. If a CAA team has a known offer to a HS kid, and that kid chooses a PL school, we would know about it. Some fans aren't seeing that. Its not often, and no more so than in 2008, but some HS players have chosen a PL school over UNH.

[clenz]

Except there is proof out there. Fan bases are pretty good at tracking their schools recruiting. If a CAA team has a known offer to a HS kid, and that kid chooses a PL school, we would know about it. Some fans aren't seeing that. Its not often, and no more so than in 2008, but some HS players have chosen a PL school over UNH.
Again, it's not the top line recruits. It's the kids that make up the depth.

[2ram]

All this denial of CAA schools losing recruits to PL schools leads me to believe that they indeed are losing some. Not a huge number, but enough to make a difference.

have to agree with this, if only for the reason it seems near impossible to factually make the statement otherwise.

did the CAA not recruit a single PL player? possible, but extremely hard to believe.

having said that, the PL certainly has it's own issues that impact recruiting... so who knows what trend will develop.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Regarding the CAA "losing" recruits to Patriot League schools, i think both the CAA fans and the PL fans are right. I'm not familiar with anyone that Richmond was recruiting choosing a Patriot League school instead (not off the top of my head at least). With that said, how many kids might be committing to early offers from a Patriot League school or a Monmouth ... then have a terrific senior season ... and already be 'locked up' before January and early February roll around? There is really no way of knowing.

What we do know is there are more football scholarships flying around on the east coast than their used to be. I think this is probably watering down everyone's talent level to some (even modest) degree. A modest difference on talent can have a big result on the field.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

All of the points are ok but I think the whole question is over dramatized.

its not like the CAA isn't still putting teams to the semifinals and finals each year. They just have different helmets (Towson in 2013 and UNH to the semis last year). I think again this year you will have 2-4 teams making runs into the quarters and beyond.

I do think of all the losses, UMass is the one which really had an impact. ODU and GState just weren't part of the football fabric long enough.

Also feel like the CAA has righted the ship nicely though I do agree it's important they work forward on all sports members in the future. Any full addition of UNH, UAlbany or Stony Brook would help. Right now, we have 6 full sports members, just enough to maintain a core base.

I think you have a lot of good points here too. That said, things just 'feel' a little different right now than it did back 5-10 years ago. The caliber of the play just doesn't seem as good, particularly the quarterbacks.

Additionally, the schedules lack the same juice that they did back then. Look at Richmond's home schedule this year:

VMI
Maine
Elon
Albany
William and Mary

The only game with any 'juice' is the last game of the season and to a lesser degree VMI due to the long standing state rivalry. The other 3 games are a really tough sell for the marketing department. With all due respect to the Great Danes, take them out and add Umass and it starts to look a whole lot different (just as an example).

[Longhorn]

2008
Delaware (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/delaware.htm)
Hofstra (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/hofstra.htm)
James Madison (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/jmu.htm)
Maine (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/maine.htm)
Massachusetts (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/umass.htm)
New Hampshire (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/unh.htm)
Northeastern (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/nu.htm)
Rhode Island (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/uri.htm)
Richmond (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/richmond.htm)
Towson (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/towson.htm)
Villanova (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/vu.htm)
William and Mary (http://www.caasports.com/custompages/stats/FB/2008/wm.htm)

2015
Delaware
UAlbany
James Madison
Maine
SBU
New Hampshire
Elon
Rhode Island
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William and Mary

Stats can be a bit deceiving. For example, FBS wins are rare to begin with and the number of wins have little to do with the overall strength of the CAA and everything to do with the individual match-ups. Point spread in FBS games would be a better indicator. The last two weeks, JMU beat SMU and WM took UVA to the wire.

I think its more useful to look at large-scale trends. Let's compare the CAA in 2008, at the arguable height of its dominance, to the current 2015 CAA.

Delaware - Brock might need more time, but hard not to argue that firing Keeler was a mistake at this point. UD is young and has talent on the roster, but no denying this program is/has been in decline and is no longer a perennial top 25/playoff team. Gotta believe its only a matter of time before Brock (or the next coach) rights the ship. Down

UAlbany/Hofstra - I think this is close to a lateral trade and will eventually be an upgrade. Hofstra's hay day was in the early 2000's. The program was struggling and no better than current UAlbany squads in the years immediately preceding the program being dropped. UAlbany already has better fan support and more upside than Hofstra. Even

James Madison - Experienced a drop in play at the end of MM era, but this year's squad has a chance to be as good as any JMU squad from back in the day. The talent on the field is certainly appears to be as good as its ever been. Even

Maine - I think everyone thought Maine would be better this year. Maine put together some solid squads between 2004 and 2010. I'd concede Maine has been in a mini-slide. Down Slightly

SBU/UMass - UMass was far removed from its 1998 title run by the time they departed for FBS glory. They we're little better than middle of the pack CAA in their final years. Right about where I'd put SBU right now. I think this is a wash now and SBU has more upside given their location. Even

New Hampshire - There has not been a more consistent winner at the FCS level over the past 15 years (past 5 years NDSU is obviously way better). UNH had arguably there best season ever just last year. It would terribly short-sighted to take this one year's rough start as any indication of decline in the long-term given the track record here. UNH was/is, and likely will remain, a top-level FCS program. Even

Elon/Northeastern - One bad FCS program replaces another bad FCS program. Based on facilities and geography alone, which school has more upside? Easy, Elon. Even

URI/URI - URI is worse than usual this year. I think there's still a bit of NEC reduced schollie hangover effect here. Give URI a couple years and I suspect they'll be back to normal bad (few surprise wins every year) versus extra bad (0-fer CAA). Still hard to make a meaningful case for CAA decline based in any real part on how bad URI is. Down Slightly

UR - Sure, UR has not repeated their NC Title run, but that's an unrealistic gauge. I still see a consistent Top 25/playoff contender of a program. Even

Towson - Improved coaching, improved facilities, improved recruiting, and vastly improved results. Deep playoff run would have been impossible ten years ago. Easily the biggest upgrade in the then versus now comparison. Improved

Villanova - Basically the same comment as UR. Very consistent program under Talley. After UNH, the most consistent winner in CAA over the past 15 years. Still a threat to go deep into the playoffs every year. No significant drop-off in my opinion. Even

William and Mary - Also a consistent program that rarely has a losing season. Had great defenses in recent years while struggling with consistency at QB. I can easily say that with recent facility upgrades, the level of recruit has improved considerably over the past 5 to 6 years. More depth than ever. We've gone 7-5 the last two season to just miss the playoffs. Schedule is brutal this year, but this is our most complete squad, including QB play, since the 2009 semi-final run. Even

I'd say overall the current version of the CAA is roughly on par with the 2008 version. Overall, I'd concede a slight drop-off due to Maine, UD, and a still recovering URI. I'd also concede that we've had fewer elite teams (read top 5), in recent years, but elite teams and NCs are rather poor indicators to assess top to bottom or overall conference strength. I'd also concede the MVFC has surpassed the CAA for now as the dominant FCS conference. However, that has more to do with the rise of the MVFC than the demise of the CAA.

I do get a little annoyed by the doom and gloom talk regarding how diluted or weak the CAA football conference has become. I think it stems primarily from the dissatisfaction of the two largest fan bases (JMU and UD) in recent years. In the case of JMU, it has more to do with their fanbase trying to justify leaving a "watered-down" CAA than any actual decline in their program or the CAA football conference (basketball is a different, but separate story).

I'm sure some will point to ODU as further evidence of the conference's decline, but I'd argue ODU wasn't here long enough to be missed or establish a new/higher baseline. If we're going to use ODU as an example of the CAA's decline, than we need to use GSU as an example of our ascendance (addition through subtraction).

As for the argument that the addition of FBS programs has hurt east coast FCS recruiting, it seems plausible, but I've seen no indication of this for WM. As mentioned above, we are better recruits than ever. Perhaps our pool doesn't overlap with the GSU and ASU of the FBS world as much as some other FCS programs, but I can see no marked drop in talent when I watch CAA football. I'd imagine the increase in population in the US has more than kept pace with the growth in FBS scholarships. More FBS scholarships also equals more possible FCS transfers for those who wade deeply in those waters.

The rise of power programs beyond Montana in the western US has been great for FCS football. I think the slight dip that has occurred in the CAA will be reversed in short order. Rumors of the CAA/FCS football's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Great summary and post. Agree with you 100%

[Catsfan90]

I agree with the poster who stated about the watered down scheduling. I keep reading that UNH this year has an easy schedule, and I won't disagree with that. But at the same time they play just as many CAA teams as everyone else in the conference. It used to be that a CAA win was huge, but now apparently having Delaware, Richmond, and W&M constitutes an easy schedule in the CAA now.

[RootinFerDukes]

I agree with the poster who stated about the watered down scheduling. I keep reading that UNH this year has an easy schedule, and I won't disagree with that. But at the same time they play just as many CAA teams as everyone else in the conference. It used to be that a CAA win was huge, but now apparently having Delaware, Richmond, and W&M constitutes an easy schedule in the CAA now.

It's more the fact that you all consistently miss getting all five "tough" opponents in the conference most seasons. You miss playing JMU and VU, who were the preseason top 2 picks. You missed the same two last season, who finished 2nd and 3rd in the CAA.
Meanwhile you all get the bottom 3 picks in the conference this year as part of your CAA schedule, Albany, Elon and Rhode Island. Maine isn't looking too strong this year either. SB may end up as a middle of the pack CAA team.

[superman7515]

I agree with the poster who stated about the watered down scheduling. I keep reading that UNH this year has an easy schedule, and I won't disagree with that. But at the same time they play just as many CAA teams as everyone else in the conference. It used to be that a CAA win was huge, but now apparently having Delaware, Richmond, and W&M constitutes an easy schedule in the CAA now.


It's more the fact that you all consistently miss getting all five "tough" opponents in the conference most seasons.

And let's not forget that New Hampshire avoided playing Delaware altogether for four straight regular seasons and haven't had to play a conference game in Newark in almost a decade (2006).

[Catsfan90]

It's more the fact that you all consistently miss getting all five "tough" opponents in the conference most seasons. You miss playing JMU and VU, who were the preseason top 2 picks. You missed the same two last season, who finished 2nd and 3rd in the CAA.
Meanwhile you all get the bottom 3 picks in the conference this year as part of your CAA schedule, Albany, Elon and Rhode Island. Maine isn't looking too strong this year either. SB may end up as a middle of the pack CAA team.
But that is my point, I am certainly not disagreeing with the fact that UNH does have a more favourable schedule. The point I was trying to make is that out of an entire conference if missing two teams means that there schedule is that much easier is an atestmant to where the conference is headed, or has already dropped to.

[Catsfan90]

And let's not forget that New Hampshire avoided playing Delaware altogether for four straight regular seasons and haven't had to play a conference game in Newark in almost a decade (2006).
Yah I do think that's strange. The last time they played there was in 2010 for the playoffs iirc. This year is the first time in quite awhile. Did the conference realignment with teams leaving and coming in have anything to do with it?

[superman7515]

Yah I do think that's strange. The last time they played there was in 2010 for the playoffs iirc. This year is the first time in quite awhile. Did the conference realignment with teams leaving and coming in have anything to do with it?

That's what they claimed, but we all know the truth, they scared bruh! How else would they get all of the games at home? Haha

[Catsfan90]

That's what they claimed, but we all know the truth, they scared bruh! How else would they get all of the games at home? Haha
Haha not going to lie, 2010 was my first year following UNH. And I was down in NC at the time so I didn't really get to see to much of them. That year I was so excited that they would be on ESPN and I looked forward to that game all week. Watching Devlin dismantle them made me fear Delaware. And from doing research and looking back, they were good for a while.

[Longhorn]

I respectfully disagree. JMU is hardly in the "same boat" today with Delaware. Just the investment by JMU in new facilities alone separate the two schools by a factor of tens of millions. UD would kill for a modern football stadium like JMU, but all they've got are some pretty architectural drawings that are gathering dust. In the meantime JMU has a $100 million dollar convocation center ready to go, with bonding authority from the state legislature for $89 million, and is closing in on the private funding necessary to break ground. I also think that the hire of Withers > Brock, and attendance at JMU games has increased while UD's has been in decline. UD is in a sad state, so we can agree about that, but as UD's performance on the field has declined, so has their attendance. JMU current situation looks nothing like what UD is facing.

I also disagree with your objection to the suggestion that Albany and SBU athletic programs are not at the same level as Hofstra and UMass. Indeed, UMass won a NC years ago, but that's almost ancient history now. SBU would be a full member of the CAA today were it not for the objection of Hofstra's administration that fears SBU's ascendancy. None-the-less, both Albany and SBU are committed to being competitive in the CAA, and simply lack the name identification and respect among fan bases from the older CAA programs. I suspect that lack of respect (like your expressed opinion) comes mainly because Albany and SBU are the "new kids" in the league, however, I strongly think both Albany and SBU are solid and worthy programs as replacements for UMAss and Hofstra's FB programs.

I'm admittedly reading a bit between the lines of your post here, however, your assessment of the CAA's current strength and ability to recruit appears to be colored by your desire for FBS football, and perhaps the loss of in-state rivals ODU, George Mason and VCU. Those were big loses to the league no doubt (mainly in basketball), and JMU's effort to follow their lead and join a FBS conference is taking too long. Still, I reject any suggestion that sloughs off the CAA as a league unfit for JMU because the neighborhood no longer boasts what many people consider to be our peer programs (such as ODU). The notion that their moves have left JMU exposed (and condemned) to some other world where JMU can't recruit quality players is false. If we look at the recruiting records objectively, the rise of programs such as ODU honestly hasn't effected JMU's recruiting at all. Perhaps it will have (or has already) a bigger impact on recruiting for the smaller and less fortunate FCS schools, but along the East Coast JMU can still make serious pitches to the same type of player JMU has always sought to sign in the past. I just don't see this reality of how and what kind of player JMU recruits changing should JMU stay FCS or FBS. JMU will simply be recruiting (in general) the same type of player, just more of them in a move from 63 scholarships to 85. The 5 star and 4 star players are still going to sign with the Michigans and Norte Dames, and the CUSA, MAC and Sunbelt teams will scrambling for the leftovers.

[smilo]

I really enjoyed this thread and I think you all did a fantastic job of identifying the problem, but is there any fix to this? Even an unrealistic one? URI and Elon are sinking the conference. Frankly, Albany is pretty painful to watch too. Nova has gone without playing UNH the last two years and I know it was a road game just before that. Our home schedule is atrocious, and we don't get fan attendance. JMU and UD may not have that problem, but it's becoming a drag for us.

Do schools that care just have to move up to have any hope of getting out of this mess or is this situation salvageable? It'd be great to get schools like Fordham and Liberty in the conference, but I don't see that as realistic or positive as the only way it happens is if JMU or UD bolts which is a net negative. The four A-East members may produce good seasons, but they lack any potential for growth. UNH/Maine are a package that will stick together wherever.

Richmond, William & Mary and maybe Villanova/Towson are the only ones likely to dedicate themselves to this level (and realistically Towson has struggled to do so and Villanova's fan are unwilling to do so). Are Richmond/William & Mary better off elsewhere? Tougher for the latter to leave as they have the CAA all sports connection, but perhaps they would be happier in the PL? The peers are a little closer, and ODU/JMU leaving/intending to leave destroys in-state connections. Still, not really an opening for more than just football membership...

What do y'all think the solution is?

[MR. CHICKEN]

I really enjoyed this thread and I think you all did a fantastic job of identifying the problem, but is there any fix to this? Even an unrealistic one? URI and Elon are sinking the conference. Frankly, Albany is pretty painful to watch too. Nova has gone without playing UNH the last two years and I know it was a road game just before that. Our home schedule is atrocious, and we don't get fan attendance. JMU and UD may not have that problem, but it's becoming a drag for us.

Do schools that care just have to move up to have any hope of getting out of this mess or is this situation salvageable? It'd be great to get schools like Fordham and Liberty in the conference, but I don't see that as realistic or positive as the only way it happens is if JMU or UD bolts which is a net negative. The four A-East members may produce good seasons, but they lack any potential for growth. UNH/Maine are a package that will stick together wherever.

Richmond, William & Mary and maybe Villanova/Towson are the only ones likely to dedicate themselves to this level (and realistically Towson has struggled to do so and Villanova's fan are unwilling to do so). Are Richmond/William & Mary better off elsewhere? Tougher for the latter to leave as they have the CAA all sports connection, but perhaps they would be happier in the PL? The peers are a little closer, and ODU/JMU leaving/intending to leave destroys in-state connections. Still, not really an opening for more than just football membership...

What do y'all think the solution is?


.....EVERAH CONFERENCE...HAS ITS BOTTOM DWELLERS.......HOW IS DUH CAA SINKIN'.....WHEN OURAH CONFERENCE REPS...HOLD DEY'RE OWN...IN PLAYOFFS.....xconfusedx.....BROCK!

[smilo]

First of all, URI and Elon are terrible. Compare to South Dakota and Missouri State. The non-transitioning Southland members.
They are not good. They have not been good. They have no prospects of being good. (Perhaps, Elon does have a small one but the next point is more relevant.)

That might still be acceptable in a rivalry type setting. If the 4 A-East members want to continue playing URI, they should feel free to take the easy win. URI is not a name that helps Nova in anyway. They destroy all hope of drawing fans which is already bleak as it is.

JMU and Liberty strike me as the next pair to move up, and I bet most people feel that way. (Who else can they choose? MO St?? I'm banking on that pair.) If that happens, I hope the CAA is effectively done because I want no part of it. There is no way I want Monmouth. Is Fordham alone enough? That's probably not enough to replace JMU for me. I, of course, hope Delaware and Villanova get the invites up, but they aren't actively politicing for it, so I may as well hope for the next best thing - get into natural rivalries. That's why I suggest PL alternative membership. Sure, the teams aren't better, but look at what we are leaving behind to play peers. The PL isn't actually that much worse. UNH is sort of a rival, but we aren't playing them. Maine and SBU are up-and-down.

I'd imagine WMU, UR, UD, and Nova are academically elite enough to be PL football members. The question is are WMU and UD able to do full membership. Patriot shouldn't have much of a problem going to 12. I know Delaware has lacrosse which could be a small issue. Their culture is also a bit of an obscure fit, but it's possible it's only a temporary destination that might be accepted as something mutually beneficial.

Lehigh and Lafayette are more natural rivalries to play. Holy Cross can be the NE Catholic rival. Georgetown may be atrocious, but Nova-Georgetown is going to make a lot more people here care than Nova-URI and Nova-Towson.

Part of the problem of the bad CAA that people identified is that these teams have no logical connections, and many have very different goals. It's not working. People don't care to see these matchups. Is Lehigh much better? Not exactly, but it is definitely going to help compared to Maine, which has no chance of becoming a rivalry. At least Lehigh has been good recently. Lafayette and Bucknell could've been mid-tier CAA teams recently. They'll adjust. Colgate is the only obscure one, but it's not all that terrible. The other 9 give a much more compelling schedule than we've had.

Would the PL accept? I have no clue. Would they be willing to take a beating for a couple years? They have from Fordham, but that's just one team. But these teams bring a lot of prestige to the conference. It's not ideal, but I'm just throwing it out there. The bottom dwellers could be more logical than generic northeastern state schools.


Seems silly to be arguing that the PL is better than CAA, but I think it definitely has the potential to be more exciting when team goals align in that type of setting than the current mess we have. I'm sure that's a minority opinion, but the scheduling is unbearable at the moment and changes need to happen.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I respectfully disagree. JMU is hardly in the "same boat" today with Delaware. Just the investment by JMU in new facilities alone separate the two schools by a factor of tens of millions. UD would kill for a modern football stadium like JMU, but all they've got are some pretty architectural drawings that are gathering dust. In the meantime JMU has a $100 million dollar convocation center ready to go, with bonding authority from the state legislature for $89 million, and is closing in on the private funding necessary to break ground. I also think that the hire of Withers > Brock, and attendance at JMU games has increased while UD's has been in decline. UD is in a sad state, so we can agree about that, but as UD's performance on the field has declined, so has their attendance. JMU current situation looks nothing like what UD is facing.


I just looked at the fly-through of the proposed JMU new convocation center, it looks very nice. That being said, you needed it, your old facility was very outdated. On Delaware's side, the Bob Carpenter Center is ten years newer than the old JMU convo, and went through a major overhaul and expansion a couple of years ago. Delaware has also invested in an indoor practice facility for football.

Part of the reason that Delaware Stadium hasn't been redone/rebuilt/expanded is that it doesn't need it. It was the best stadium in the league for many years, and while JMU's has jumped it in terms of size, I still prefer the symmetrical concrete Delaware Stadium to a lopsided aluminum monster.

Other teams have invested more in facilities recently because they needed it - Delaware invested big a long time ago and has been able to enjoy those facilities since.

Attendance is an issue, but winning games will change that. It looks like we're finally turning the corner in the Brock area, but time will tell.





I also disagree with your objection to the suggestion that Albany and SBU athletic programs are not at the same level as Hofstra and UMass. Indeed, UMass won a NC years ago, but that's almost ancient history now. SBU would be a full member of the CAA today were it not for the objection of Hofstra's administration that fears SBU's ascendancy. None-the-less, both Albany and SBU are committed to being competitive in the CAA, and simply lack the name identification and respect among fan bases from the older CAA programs. I suspect that lack of respect (like your expressed opinion) comes mainly because Albany and SBU are the "new kids" in the league, however, I strongly think both Albany and SBU are solid and worthy programs as replacements for UMAss and Hofstra's FB programs.



I think SBU and Albany have a lot to offer, SBU in particular. Personally, I'd rather see SBU as a full member and Hofstra be kicked out. I'd also like to see UNH, Maine, and Albany become full CAA members. If you play football in the league, you should play basketball in the league. I can see Villanova not doing it just because they're a big time basketball school, and I understand that Richmond and Rhody aren't going to be tempted of the A-10, but otherwise, time to step up from the America East.

[UNHWildcat18]

First of all, URI and Elon are terrible. Compare to South Dakota and Missouri State. The non-transitioning Southland members.
They are not good. They have not been good. They have no prospects of being good. (Perhaps, Elon does have a small one but the next point is more relevant.)

That might still be acceptable in a rivalry type setting. If the 4 A-East members want to continue playing URI, they should feel free to take the easy win. URI is not a name that helps Nova in anyway. They destroy all hope of drawing fans which is already bleak as it is.

JMU and Liberty strike me as the next pair to move up, and I bet most people feel that way. (Who else can they choose? MO St?? I'm banking on that pair.) If that happens, I hope the CAA is effectively done because I want no part of it. There is no way I want Monmouth. Is Fordham alone enough? That's probably not enough to replace JMU for me. I, of course, hope Delaware and Villanova get the invites up, but they aren't actively politicing for it, so I may as well hope for the next best thing - get into natural rivalries. That's why I suggest PL alternative membership. Sure, the teams aren't better, but look at what we are leaving behind to play peers. The PL isn't actually that much worse. UNH is sort of a rival, but we aren't playing them. Maine and SBU are up-and-down.

I'd imagine WMU, UR, UD, and Nova are academically elite enough to be PL football members. The question is are WMU and UD able to do full membership. Patriot shouldn't have much of a problem going to 12. I know Delaware has lacrosse which could be a small issue. Their culture is also a bit of an obscure fit, but it's possible it's only a temporary destination that might be accepted as something mutually beneficial.

Lehigh and Lafayette are more natural rivalries to play. Holy Cross can be the NE Catholic rival. Georgetown may be atrocious, but Nova-Georgetown is going to make a lot more people here care than Nova-URI and Nova-Towson.

Part of the problem of the bad CAA that people identified is that these teams have no logical connections, and many have very different goals. It's not working. People don't care to see these matchups. Is Lehigh much better? Not exactly, but it is definitely going to help compared to Maine, which has no chance of becoming a rivalry. At least Lehigh has been good recently. Lafayette and Bucknell could've been mid-tier CAA teams recently. They'll adjust. Colgate is the only obscure one, but it's not all that terrible. The other 9 give a much more compelling schedule than we've had.

Would the PL accept? I have no clue. Would they be willing to take a beating for a couple years? They have from Fordham, but that's just one team. But these teams bring a lot of prestige to the conference. It's not ideal, but I'm just throwing it out there. The bottom dwellers could be more logical than generic northeastern state schools.


Seems silly to be arguing that the PL is better than CAA, but I think it definitely has the potential to be more exciting when team goals align in that type of setting than the current mess we have. I'm sure that's a minority opinion, but the scheduling is unbearable at the moment and changes need to happen.

Personally I don't think CAA schools give two ****s about being rivals or being in a conference with PL schools. They want the highest level of FCS football and they want to play the biggest names in FCS football. I personally hope none of the teams join the PL. CAA needs to dump Elon and URI. Elon was a bottom feeder socon team and URI due to the NEC debacle isn't really recovering and have no plans to really dedicate improvements to their facilities. While I would hate seeing UNH lose a New England partner. Their dedication doesn't seem to be there. The rest of the conference is fine. I have no idea what happened to Albany vs holy cross but they are improving and will be much better in a year or two. The rest of the conference just needs to stay committed. JMU needs to just move up already if they are going to.

[KPSUL]

I'd also like to see UNH, Maine, and Albany become full CAA members. If you play football in the league, you should play basketball in the league.

Do you really want UNH bringing down Basketball in the CAA? Seriously, UNH Hockey is still the main focus with football a clear second. The administration is content with everything else played largely in the Northeast and staying in the American East.

[Sitting Bull]

First of all, URI and Elon are terrible. Compare to South Dakota and Missouri State. The non-transitioning Southland members.
They are not good. They have not been good. They have no prospects of being good. (Perhaps, Elon does have a small one but the next point is more relevant.)

That might still be acceptable in a rivalry type setting. If the 4 A-East members want to continue playing URI, they should feel free to take the easy win. URI is not a name that helps Nova in anyway. They destroy all hope of drawing fans which is already bleak as it is.

JMU and Liberty strike me as the next pair to move up, and I bet most people feel that way. (Who else can they choose? MO St?? I'm banking on that pair.) If that happens, I hope the CAA is effectively done because I want no part of it. There is no way I want Monmouth. Is Fordham alone enough? That's probably not enough to replace JMU for me. I, of course, hope Delaware and Villanova get the invites up, but they aren't actively politicing for it, so I may as well hope for the next best thing - get into natural rivalries. That's why I suggest PL alternative membership. Sure, the teams aren't better, but look at what we are leaving behind to play peers. The PL isn't actually that much worse. UNH is sort of a rival, but we aren't playing them. Maine and SBU are up-and-down.

I'd imagine WMU, UR, UD, and Nova are academically elite enough to be PL football members. The question is are WMU and UD able to do full membership. Patriot shouldn't have much of a problem going to 12. I know Delaware has lacrosse which could be a small issue. Their culture is also a bit of an obscure fit, but it's possible it's only a temporary destination that might be accepted as something mutually beneficial.

Lehigh and Lafayette are more natural rivalries to play. Holy Cross can be the NE Catholic rival. Georgetown may be atrocious, but Nova-Georgetown is going to make a lot more people here care than Nova-URI and Nova-Towson.

Part of the problem of the bad CAA that people identified is that these teams have no logical connections, and many have very different goals. It's not working. People don't care to see these matchups. Is Lehigh much better? Not exactly, but it is definitely going to help compared to Maine, which has no chance of becoming a rivalry. At least Lehigh has been good recently. Lafayette and Bucknell could've been mid-tier CAA teams recently. They'll adjust. Colgate is the only obscure one, but it's not all that terrible. The other 9 give a much more compelling schedule than we've had.

Would the PL accept? I have no clue. Would they be willing to take a beating for a couple years? They have from Fordham, but that's just one team. But these teams bring a lot of prestige to the conference. It's not ideal, but I'm just throwing it out there. The bottom dwellers could be more logical than generic northeastern state schools.


Seems silly to be arguing that the PL is better than CAA, but I think it definitely has the potential to be more exciting when team goals align in that type of setting than the current mess we have. I'm sure that's a minority opinion, but the scheduling is unbearable at the moment and changes need to happen.

I think you - Villanova - are in the stranger position, not so much the CAA.

Most in the CAA are state/public universities. They have little or nothing in common with the PL members though they do have some recognition among each other. Really no different than most conferences (not all members are necessarily rivals) but they do offer regional proximity and consistent desires athletically. It's a good fit for like minded universities on the eastern seaboard. I see nothing strange or unusual about the members unlike many conferences today (Idaho in the Sunbelt, ODU in the same conference with UTEP, West Virginia in the Big 12, Creighton in the Big East, etc.). It's the best option available and it works.

The issue with Villanova, and to some extent Richmond, is you have a nationally vested position in basketball. The reason you are in The CAA is because someone at Villanova decided it was a high level and challenging home for football. Villanova, like W&M and UR, has a history of playing D1 football. You never were linked with the schools now playing in the Patriot. To now decide Villanova should change their direction on football, which a PL move would do, is a decision specific to Villanova. It's not a broader issue for the CAA. Richmond on the other hand will stay in as long as the CAA lets them. For them to suddenly replace games with JMU, W&M, Delaware and in time, Elon - with any of the PL teams would pretty much sink a lot of the interest there on football.

Elon is a different story. It's private though not in the provincial way many private northeastern schools behave (like some sort of club). It's more like a smaller Wake Forest. It's a hot school with growing academic ratings and for football, beautiful facilities. And it fits well in the CAA, many of heir student base coming from the Northeast (like College of Charleston). They will be competitive in short order.

[smilo]

Personally I don't think CAA schools give two ****s about being rivals or being in a conference with PL schools. They want the highest level of FCS football and they want to play the biggest names in FCS football. I personally hope none of the teams join the PL. CAA needs to dump Elon and URI. Elon was a bottom feeder socon team and URI due to the NEC debacle isn't really recovering and have no plans to really dedicate improvements to their facilities. While I would hate seeing UNH lose a New England partner. Their dedication doesn't seem to be there. The rest of the conference is fine. I have no idea what happened to Albany vs holy cross but they are improving and will be much better in a year or two. The rest of the conference just needs to stay committed. JMU needs to just move up already if they are going to.

I agree, but I don't see just "dumping" these schools to get to the ideal 9 team conference as being realistic, which is why I felt the need to propose an alternative. I could almost live with Towson, Albany and sometimes Maine being the bottomfeeders even if it's not ideal.
And I don't know what the schools care about frankly. I do know our alumni are not at all happy with the football schedule, and others in this thread expressed dismay regarding theirs as well. Rivals are critical if one wants attendance and fanbase involvement. We can't draw for anything even to huge games with a great team.

The CAA isn't the highest level of FCS football with JMU gone and there is no firm commitment to that from throughout the conference.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

"Richmond will stay as long as the CAA lets them"?

What is the point of this statement?

[Sitting Bull]

"Richmond will stay as long as the CAA lets them"?

What is the point of this statement?

It means UR fits well in the CAA for football and likes it, has no reason to leave on their own accord and the only way they would possibly look to the PL for football as an option would be an instance where the CAA might possibly at some point require teams be in for all sports (like the MAC/UMass).

[bison137]

I'd imagine WMU, UR, UD, and Nova are academically elite enough to be PL football members.


W&M, UR, and Nova yes. UD not in the same universe.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I just want to know what the PL was doing in the late 90's to mid 2000's when they were competing with and often beating the better A10/CAA teams. My guess is it was coaching? Higgins/Lembo at Lehigh, Biddle in his prime at Colgate and Clawson at Fordham......

The PL overall has regressed the last 10 years. Lehigh had two marquee playoff wins and that's about it. Fordham has failed to really notch a head turning win in the playoffs despite their regular season success. Time will tell but I'm not too optimistic there will much improvement unless the coaching gets better. Lehigh has a very high ceiling when the right pieces are place. Colgate has proven they can do great things too.

[Sitting Bull]

And I don't know what the schools care about frankly. I do know our alumni are not at all happy with the football schedule, and others in this thread expressed dismay regarding theirs as well.

The CAA isn't the highest level of FCS football with JMU gone and there is no firm commitment to that from throughout the conference.

On point one, I would wonder whether that means your alumni would rather be playing BC, Pitt, Syracuse (which isn't going to happen) or they have this newborn desire now to play with Colgate, Bucknell, etc. I can't see where the latter is going to create any more excitement as the current line-up of CAA teams.

For W&M - JMU, UR and Delaware (in time I think Elon) are all natural draws on our schedule. We have at least two of these on the home schedule each year. Given the time now in the CAA, UNH and Villanova are now considered good home games. That seems pretty normal to me, most any conference member has such rivalries with really just a few of the members, not every single one (as example, look at Penn States home schedule and tell me how many of their home games are with teams they may consider top rivals/big draws). Maybe half at best.

On point two, I think you significantly under rate the balance of the CAA. JMU is by no means the dominate team, certainly not the last ten years (this year, maybe so). It's been UNH, UR, Delaware, W&M, Villanova - wihile both Maine and Towson have also had top years in the last five. SBU and Elon are in development, I don't think it will be too long for either to start challenging. JMU could leave tomorrow and there would be limited impact on the CAA year after year (no offense meant). Bring in Liberty and call it a day. Who knows, maybe UMass will come to their senses.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

It means UR fits well in the CAA for football and likes it, has no reason to leave on their own accord and the only way they would possibly look to the PL for football as an option would be an instance where the CAA might possibly at some point require teams be in for all sports (like the MAC/UMass).

Ah, ok. Considering nearly half of the conference is 'football only', I suspect all will be ok.

[UNHWildcat18]

I think you need a recognizable school to increase interest. UNH is a Rival of UMaine, but being only just out of school I can tell you the kids care more when the team A is doing better and B playing a team of more significance. No one gave two ****s about CCSU or Elon but more buzz was created around teams like villanova coming to town since they are a well known school. Also to my dismay I actually DISAGREE with our head coach on this matter in terms of OOC. He says we should just play regional schools and not have to worry about going anywhere outside unless its FBS. I understand that for $$ reasons but you know what would get more students and alumni to go to games? If our OOC game was Montana state this year and seeing them pack the away side if it was there rather than the 20 fans ccsu came with. I may be just talking out my rear end on this but better teams from higher profile schools with better followings help create a better atmosphere. Still think that URI should cut football and Elon should go back to the soconn. besides travel for other schools they dont help the prestige of the conference, and dont really bring any interest to the table.

[Sitting Bull]

Ah, ok. Considering nearly half of the conference is 'football only', I suspect all will be ok.

Until SBU and UAlbany join for all sports, possibly UNH, I suspect so.

[bostonspider]

I do think that if Delaware and JMU move on, Richmond, VU and W&M might have to consider the possibilities of another football conference. As a trio, joining the PL would not be bad at all.. Or VU joins the PL and UR and W&M look south to the SoCon with Furman, Wofford and VMI. Who knows what the future holds, but for now the CAA works pretty well for us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Albany got smoked this weekend by Holy Cross, picked to finish sixth in the PL. Not sure if that influences the conversation that much, except that Albany seems like it still has a way to go to be perennial CAA powerhouses. Stony Brook is definitely in the conversation for the top tier already. They are very good and certainly have possible FBS aspirations.

[Sitting Bull]

I do think that if Delaware and JMU move on, Richmond, VU and W&M might have to consider the possibilities of another football conference. As a trio, joining the PL would not be bad at all.. Or VU joins the PL and UR and W&M look south to the SoCon with Furman, Wofford and VMI. Who knows what the future holds, but for now the CAA works pretty well for us.

Delaware's ambitions are more closely tied to W&M than they are JMU.

JMU will eventually move, I think. W&M and Delaware will stick as the core of an all sports CAA.

If the CAA eventually added SBU and UAlbany - even so far as UNH and Maine - I would think their best move would be to set the league for all sports members.

I could see Villanova and UR going PL should that happen.

W&M has looked at the PL several times - and in the words of our Prez, not a good fit. The schools in the PL look more like each other than we look like them.

I like the PL - I just don't think it is a better fit in any way than the current CAA for W&M.

I love VMI. It's a stretch though I would be very happy if they joined the CAA for all sports. Liberty doesn't really have a trade up home either - they would be a decent addition as well.

[Sitting Bull]

Albany got smoked this weekend by Holy Cross, picked to finish sixth in the PL. Not sure if that influences the conversation that much, except that Albany seems like it still has a way to go to be perennial CAA powerhouses. Stony Brook is definitely in the conversation for the top tier already. They are very good and certainly have possible FBS aspirations.

I think HC took out a lot of PL frustrations with the CAA, not to mention the heartbreaking manner they lost to UAlbany last year.

As far as UAlbany, they are only in for football. Not sure how one football game would change the upside for their other sports in the CAA.

SBU has FBS aspirations...Not sure if that would be any hold up short term coming full book in the CAA. They don't have the stadium or the fanbase to even support the idea. Not to mention a league that makes sense available.

We just need Hofstra to go to the MAAC.

[superman7515]

Albany, Delaware, James Madison, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Towson, William & Mary for all sports.

Keep Richmond/Villanova football only allowing Drexel & Charleston to remain without football.

Goodbye Elon, Hofstra, Maine, Northeastern, Rhode Island, and UNCW.

Would consider Fordham under the right circumstances, but I doubt they would want to be there for all sports considering the basketball side of things. Maybe take Fordham for football and Manhattan for everything else, gives a pretty big NYC presence with Fordham and Manhattan in the city and Stony Brook on LI. I dunno, that would be the minor compared to dropping the six above.

[Mattymc727]

Albany, Delaware, James Madison, New Hampshire, Stony Brook, Towson, William & Mary for all sports.

Keep Richmond/Villanova football only allowing Drexel & Charleston to remain without football.

Goodbye Elon, Hofstra, Maine, Northeastern, Rhode Island, and UNCW.

Would consider Fordham under the right circumstances, but I doubt they would want to be there for all sports considering the basketball side of things. Maybe take Fordham for football and Manhattan for everything else, gives a pretty big NYC presence with Fordham and Manhattan in the city and Stony Brook on LI. I dunno, that would be the minor compared to dropping the six above.

As much as I hate them, I dont think UNH is going anywhere without Maine. But I agree, full sports membership makes too much sense for UNH. Especially considering the basketball team is finally winning for the first time ever.

[Seawolf97]

Many of us at SBU support the idea of a full membership in the CAA for all sports. It only makes sense not to be split between CAA Football and the America East for everything else. Hofstra has been the problem .

[KPSUL]

So let me get all this straight. Albany, Elon and URI are too bad in football and always will be. Villanova, Richmond, W&M, and Delaware, too academically elite. SBU and Maine, too up and down. Towson was only a one time flash-in-the-pan success. JMU fits OK, but will be moving up to FBS at any moment. This leaves UNH as the only team as a "good fit" for CAA football?

[BisonFan02]

So let me get all this straight. Albany, Elon and URI are too bad in football and always will be. Villanova, Richmond, W&M, and Delaware, too academically elite. SBU and Maine, too up and down. Towson was only a one time flash-in-the-pan success. JMU fits OK, but will be moving up to FBS at any moment. This leaves UNH as the only team as a "good fit" for CAA football?

Naw....like Maine, you guys are too much of a hockey school. :D

[KPSUL]

Naw....like Maine, you guys are too much of a hockey school. :D

Well it's settled then! Let's disband CAA football before next season, since none of the schools are the right "fit".

[BisonFan02]

Well it's settled then! Let's disband CAA football before next season, since none of the schools are the right "fit".

Football East....get it done.

[Mattymc727]

Football East....get it done.


Why dont we just get Ben & Jerrys and Dunkin Donuts to sponsor Hockey East football. Boom, problem solved.

[KPSUL]

Why dont we just get Ben & Jerrys and Dunkin Donuts to sponsor Hockey East football. Boom, problem solved.

Good idea. No doubt D-D will be on board. Ben and Jerry's might be a hard sell due to what they'll see as the violent nature of football.

[UNHWildcat18]

Football East....get it done.

If only America east would sponsor a full scholarship football conference. A little too late in the game now though

[superman7515]

Good idea. No doubt D-D will be on board. Ben and Jerry's might be a hard sell due to what they'll see as the violent nature of football.

I'd purchase season tickets tomorrow. I don't care for hockey, but I'll watch anything with DD's.

[Mattymc727]

I'd purchase season tickets tomorrow. I don't care for hockey, but I'll watch anything with DD's.

Cue bigred....

[superman7515]

So let me get all this straight. Albany, Elon and URI are too bad in football and always will be. Villanova, Richmond, W&M, and Delaware, too academically elite. SBU and Maine, too up and down. Towson was only a one time flash-in-the-pan success. JMU fits OK, but will be moving up to FBS at any moment. This leaves UNH as the only team as a "good fit" for CAA football?

I thought that since URI will be dropping football any minute, we're replacing them with Georgetown and their soon to be finally completed MSF.

[Mattymc727]

Hey guys, it's getting worse this year... we got teams losing the the Ivy league and the Pioneer....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hey guys, it's getting worse this year... we got teams losing the the Ivy league and the Pioneer....

The CAA is becoming the old Patriot League!

[UNHWildcat18]

The CAA is becoming the old Patriot League!

With the PL becoming the NEC!

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Im confused. So who is the CAA now? The CUSA?

[Tribal]

The CAA routinely has 5+ teams in the top 25, 3 of whom are usually serious contenders for the national title game.

Losing a few games to IL squads doesn't mean the CAA has become a doormat.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[NY Crusader 2010]

The CAA routinely has 5+ teams in the top 25, 3 of whom are usually serious contenders for the national title game.

Losing a few games to IL squads doesn't mean the CAA has become a doormat.



Two of the Ivy defeats were URI losses to Harvard (#6 in the Sagarins) and Brown, who will probably finish in the top half of the IL when it's all said and done.

Maine played an OK Yale team tough in New Haven. CAA still a better league than the Ivy as a whole -- probably two national title contenders in JMU and W&M.

[Mattymc727]

Maine got smoked at home against an ok Yale team.

I'm not saying the CAA is a doormat, but our OOC record is pitiful compared to 5-7 years ago.

Not panicking, it's just very interesting.

[GannonFan]

The CAA is in a slow and long decline where football is slowly de-emphasized. Look for JMU to leave soon, and a once flagship-level program, UD, continues to devalue football year after year. When Talley retires look for nova to fade as well. Look for the CAA to basically be the state school version of the Patriot League. You may see a good team from time to time, but generally fairly lackluster teams with little national impact. The CAA is a microcosm of the health of FCS in this day and age, just fading into irrelevance football-wise.

[ccd494]

As soon as Cosgrove retires, Maine will de-emphasize or even drop football.

[URMite]

Ok, so who is retiring Talley? and Laycock? Maybe Cosgrove?

JMU moves on, Delaware fades...

So where does that leave New Hampshire & Richmond?

[Mattymc727]

UNH is starting to emphasize football, not de emphasize. Not sure that idea fits well with Scarano.

[Sitting Bull]

The CAA is in a slow and long decline where football is slowly de-emphasized. Look for JMU to leave soon, and a once flagship-level program, UD, continues to devalue football year after year. When Talley retires look for nova to fade as well. Look for the CAA to basically be the state school version of the Patriot League. You may see a good team from time to time, but generally fairly lackluster teams with little national impact. The CAA is a microcosm of the health of FCS in this day and age, just fading into irrelevance football-wise.

I realize you, like some at UD, are in chicken little mode, but get a grip. Just because UD is slithering downhill, it certainly doesn't mean the CAA - or FCS for that matter - is on life support.

JMU may well leave, no news bulletin there. The question though is where and when? I think they want a decent home - also thought they would have left by now.

Even so, you have W&M, UNH, Richmond, UAlbany and Villanova all made/making or just completing significant stadium/facility upgrades. Elon and Towson already have good, modern facilities for FCS football. Stony Brook isn't looking to tread water either. Seems to me you have the majority in the CAA upgrading, improving their facilities, not ignoring or fading away.

My own feeling is as long as the Ivy League (yes I know they don't participate in the playoffs) are one of the anchors of FCS, it will always be relevant. They are national universities and they will always attract attention, even on football. Just look at the NY Time sports section on Sunday - recaps every Ivy game. Sunbelt? Ha; CUSA? forget it; MAC? only if its an article questioning why UMass ever moved there in the first place.

I wouldn't say same for G5. How many directional schools can you keep piling into "FBS" before the whole thing gets diluted to a joke - or the schools just start running out of money? You can only get so many Tuesday night paydays.

[UNHWildcat18]

As soon as Cosgrove retires, Maine will de-emphasize or even drop football.

I really doubt that. UMaine and UNH will continue to make sure they are on par with each other for sports. Neither will leave the rival hanging.

[ccd494]

I really doubt that. UMaine and UNH will continue to make sure they are on par with each other for sports. Neither will leave the rival hanging.

UNH already dropped baseball. Maine should, but won't because some huge donors have big histories with that program, which (shockingly) has had much more national success than football. Maine doesn't have lacrosse.

[Ivytalk]

The CAA is in a slow and long decline where football is slowly de-emphasized. Look for JMU to leave soon, and a once flagship-level program, UD, continues to devalue football year after year. When Talley retires look for nova to fade as well. Look for the CAA to basically be the state school version of the Patriot League. You may see a good team from time to time, but generally fairly lackluster teams with little national impact. The CAA is a microcosm of the health of FCS in this day and age, just fading into irrelevance football-wise.
My, aren't we Debbie Downer today!xrolleyesx

[Tribal]

W&M will never, and I mean NEVER, deemphasize football. Football is our cornerstone athletic program and gets more in donations each year than many colleges get for their entire athletic department.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[UNHWildcat18]

UNH already dropped baseball. Maine should, but won't because some huge donors have big histories with that program, which (shockingly) has had much more national success than football. Maine doesn't have lacrosse.

I am aware of the baseball. I really meant from this point on. Also UNH doesn't have lax either, only club

[Grizalltheway]

The CAA is in a slow and long decline where football is slowly de-emphasized. Look for JMU to leave soon, and a once flagship-level program, UD, continues to devalue football year after year. When Talley retires look for nova to fade as well. Look for the CAA to basically be the state school version of the Patriot League. You may see a good team from time to time, but generally fairly lackluster teams with little national impact. The CAA is a microcosm of the health of FCS in this day and age, just fading into irrelevance football-wise.

Yep, that must be why ESPN decided to air a regular season game on the mothership, and are sending GameDay to an FCS school yet gain. xrolleyesx

[GannonFan]

I realize you, like some at UD, are in chicken little mode, but get a grip. Just because UD is slithering downhill, it certainly doesn't mean the CAA - or FCS for that matter - is on life support.

JMU may well leave, no news bulletin there. The question though is where and when? I think they want a decent home - also thought they would have left by now.

Even so, you have W&M, UNH, Richmond, UAlbany and Villanova all made/making or just completing significant stadium/facility upgrades. Elon and Towson already have good, modern facilities for FCS football. Stony Brook isn't looking to tread water either. Seems to me you have the majority in the CAA upgrading, improving their facilities, not ignoring or fading away.

My own feeling is as long as the Ivy League (yes I know they don't participate in the playoffs) are one of the anchors of FCS, it will always be relevant. They are national universities and they will always attract attention, even on football. Just look at the NY Time sports section on Sunday - recaps every Ivy game. Sunbelt? Ha; CUSA? forget it; MAC? only if its an article questioning why UMass ever moved there in the first place.

I wouldn't say same for G5. How many directional schools can you keep piling into "FBS" before the whole thing gets diluted to a joke - or the schools just start running out of money? You can only get so many Tuesday night paydays.

Really, the NY Times sports section on Sunday is now the bell-weather for football relevance? Who even knew the NY Times had a sports section?

Of course all of those schools will still be playing football, no one said they wouldn't. But you seem to think that the G5 is doomed for failure - heck, you sound like UD's AD who said prior to the year that Temple and schools like them are close to either dropping football or coming back to FCS (and he said schools like Appy St and GSU didn't really move up at all). Yet, we hear more and more about how some P5 schools won't play FCS schools anymore, so who does that benefit? (I'll give you a hint, it starts with "G" and ends with "5"). Those schools already get significantly more pay days than FCS schools do for OOC games with the P5 and you figure that number won't go down when fewer FCS schools are possible for the schedule makings. And all of those schools are going to be offering COA's on top of the scholarships, so when a player has to make a decision between playing FBS and playing FCS the decision just got more weighted towards the former. That wasn't the case a decade ago when playing in the MAC or playing in the CAA was virtually the same. And now you see the AAC with multiple teams in the top 20, the MAC has a team in there, and those conferences are thriving, not turning into a joke as you say they are. The trend is pretty clear and the gap between the FBS and FCS is as large as it's ever been and growing bigger. But I'm sure everything will just stay the same. xcoffeex

[GannonFan]

Yep, that must be why ESPN decided to air a regular season game on the mothership, and are sending GameDay to an FCS school yet gain. xrolleyesx

ESPN shows more high school football games over the course of the season on over-the-air broadcast (i.e. not ESPN3) than they do FCS games. A lot more. xnodx

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My, aren't we Debbie Downer today!xrolleyesx

Nah, just the voice of reason.

[Grizalltheway]

ESPN shows more high school football games over the course of the season on over-the-air broadcast (i.e. not ESPN3) than they do FCS games. A lot more. xnodx

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Nah, just the voice of reason.

You seem to be working under the assumption that FCS/I-AA has ever been relevant in comparison to FBS/I-AA or the NFL. That simply isn't the case.

Just because the UD ship is sinking doesn't mean the rest of us are going to sink with you. xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Really, the NY Times sports section on Sunday is now the bell-weather for football relevance? Who even knew the NY Times had a sports section?

Of course all of those schools will still be playing football, no one said they wouldn't. But you seem to think that the G5 is doomed for failure - heck, you sound like UD's AD who said prior to the year that Temple and schools like them are close to either dropping football or coming back to FCS (and he said schools like Appy St and GSU didn't really move up at all). Yet, we hear more and more about how some P5 schools won't play FCS schools anymore, so who does that benefit? (I'll give you a hint, it starts with "G" and ends with "5"). Those schools already get significantly more pay days than FCS schools do for OOC games with the P5 and you figure that number won't go down when fewer FCS schools are possible for the schedule makings. And all of those schools are going to be offering COA's on top of the scholarships, so when a player has to make a decision between playing FBS and playing FCS the decision just got more weighted towards the former. That wasn't the case a decade ago when playing in the MAC or playing in the CAA was virtually the same. And now you see the AAC with multiple teams in the top 20, the MAC has a team in there, and those conferences are thriving, not turning into a joke as you say they are. The trend is pretty clear and the gap between the FBS and FCS is as large as it's ever been and growing bigger. But I'm sure everything will just stay the same. xcoffeex

Yeah, Temple returning to the Top 25 for the first time in decades suddenly means the AAC is "thriving". xlolx

While you are correct that the G5 is not necessarily "doomed for failure", it's also not like the G5 is truly in control of their own destiny, either. Every positive thing you say about the G5, whose benefits seem to be completely comprised of paydays going into the athletic department rather than actual FBSNCG opportunities, is totally at the whim of the P5, who can just as easily take away these paydays or use "competition" (i.e. FCS programs) to make sure the paydays do not get too large.

Furthermore, there is nothing saying that FCS schools cannot offer FCOA, and indeed there are programs that do today. You can say if the gap gets too great, FCS schools will find a way to be able to offer it.

[jmu_duke07]

ESPN GAMEDAY! That's what ****ing happened!

[Sitting Bull]

Really, the NY Times sports section on Sunday is now the bell-weather for football relevance? Who even knew the NY Times had a sports section?

Of course all of those schools will still be playing football, no one said they wouldn't. But you seem to think that the G5 is doomed for failure - heck, you sound like UD's AD who said prior to the year that Temple and schools like them are close to either dropping football or coming back to FCS (and he said schools like Appy St and GSU didn't really move up at all). Yet, we hear more and more about how some P5 schools won't play FCS schools anymore, so who does that benefit? (I'll give you a hint, it starts with "G" and ends with "5"). Those schools already get significantly more pay days than FCS schools do for OOC games with the P5 and you figure that number won't go down when fewer FCS schools are possible for the schedule makings. And all of those schools are going to be offering COA's on top of the scholarships, so when a player has to make a decision between playing FBS and playing FCS the decision just got more weighted towards the former. That wasn't the case a decade ago when playing in the MAC or playing in the CAA was virtually the same. And now you see the AAC with multiple teams in the top 20, the MAC has a team in there, and those conferences are thriving, not turning into a joke as you say they are. The trend is pretty clear and the gap between the FBS and FCS is as large as it's ever been and growing bigger. But I'm sure everything will just stay the same. xcoffeex

What exactly is your point?

You were the one who stated FCS - and the CAA - were sliding into irrelevant status. I don't see it. What's the proof? It's certainly not apparent by what current CAA schools are doing with their investment, facilities. I don't see it in the CAAs performance in the playoffs, UNH in the semis last year and Towson in the final the year before. It's not apparent in the FCS championship development, which has gotten stronger the last five years with sellout crowds , not weaker. Its not from diminishing exposure, ayear which started with a classic match-up with NDSU/Montana on national ESPN and up to this weekend with Gameday showing up at JMU?

You imply from that - at least my take - you (as in Delaware) should be - or should have gone - to FBS. I'm not sure where or what you think UD should do - but just because you strongly think Delaware should move or missed some opportunity, why do you need to crap on FCS and the CAA? That's basically how it comes across.

FCS survived just fine when Idaho left. It has survived with UMass leaving. It seems to be doing ok without Georgia State (pause for laughter here). It will survive without App State. It will survive with or without JMU.

FCS to me seems to be going stronger than a lot of the programs that left it.

[Sitting Bull]

But you seem to think that the G5 is doomed for failure - heck, you sound like UD's AD who said prior to the year that Temple and schools like them are close to either dropping football or coming back to FCS (and he said schools like Appy Stxcoffeex

On this one GF, I happen to think he is being pretty responsible as a sideline observer. I take his point that in the examples provided, the Sunbelt is not really much of a trade-up from FCS or the CAA - and its impact on the bottom line is very risky (higher costs, travel, etc.). Maybe he is looking at the "UMass experiment", probably more relevant. I would agree from what I see.

I think Montana had the same opinion.

[Sader87]

It's an interesting argument/discussion. It does seem like the CAA has dropped off (as a whole) from 5-10 years ago. Maybe not dramatically so, but a drop-off none-the-less.

Outside of UNH (and I suppose Maine....but it's WAAAAYYY up there) the CAA has lost a LOT of presence in much of the New England region with UMass and UConn going FBS and BU and NU dropping football. FCS football, despite the recent success of the NE Ivies, has a very small, niche-like following in much of New England.....that wasn't the case 10, 20, 30 or 50 years ago (when the NE Ivies and HC were 1-A).

[Seawolf97]

I realize you, like some at UD, are in chicken little mode, but get a grip. Just because UD is slithering downhill, it certainly doesn't mean the CAA - or FCS for that matter - is on life support.

JMU may well leave, no news bulletin there. The question though is where and when? I think they want a decent home - also thought they would have left by now.

Even so, you have W&M, UNH, Richmond, UAlbany and Villanova all made/making or just completing significant stadium/facility upgrades. Elon and Towson already have good, modern facilities for FCS football. Stony Brook isn't looking to tread water either. Seems to me you have the majority in the CAA upgrading, improving their facilities, not ignoring or fading away.

My own feeling is as long as the Ivy League (yes I know they don't participate in the playoffs) are one of the anchors of FCS, it will always be relevant. They are national universities and they will always attract attention, even on football. Just look at the NY Time sports section on Sunday - recaps every Ivy game. Sunbelt? Ha; CUSA? forget it; MAC? only if its an article questioning why UMass ever moved there in the first place.

I wouldn't say same for G5. How many directional schools can you keep piling into "FBS" before the whole thing gets diluted to a joke - or the schools just start running out of money? You can only get so many Tuesday night paydays.

We just committed this past week to build a 10 Million Dollar indoor practice facility . Thank you wealthy alums.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

It's an interesting argument/discussion. It does seem like the CAA has dropped off (as a whole) from 5-10 years ago. Maybe not dramatically so, but a drop-off none-the-less.

Outside of UNH (and I suppose Maine....but it's WAAAAYYY up there) the CAA has lost a LOT of presence in much of the New England region with UMass and UConn going FBS and BU and NU dropping football. FCS football, despite the recent success of the NE Ivies, has a very small, niche-like following in much of New England.....that wasn't the case 10, 20, 30 or 50 years ago (when the NE Ivies and HC were 1-A).

All of college football has a very small following in New England

[Go...gate]

Why dont we just get Ben & Jerrys and Dunkin Donuts to sponsor Hockey East Football. Boom, problem solved.

Great conference name, too!

[BlueHenSinfonian]

ESPN shows more high school football games over the course of the season on over-the-air broadcast (i.e. not ESPN3) than they do FCS games. A lot more. xnodx

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Nah, just the voice of reason.

What other sporting events are typically going on on Friday nights?

FCS, the CAA, and Delaware will all be fine. Sure we're in a dip right now, but give it a few more years and things will be back to normal.

[URMite]

What other sporting events are typically going on on Friday nights?

FCS, the CAA, and Delaware will all be fine. Sure we're in a dip right now, but give it a few more years and things will be back to normal.

It may be dipping everywhere else, but the CAA seems fine here in Virginia this year. xsmiley_wix

[melloware13]

It may be dipping everywhere else, but the CAA seems fine here in Virginia this year. xsmiley_wix

If the CAA being fine in VA includes W&M's faceplant in Newark, I guess UD's streak over JMU will extend to 6 seasons

[Catsfan90]

It's wierd to witness the end of an era. The team that won the outright championship last year become what they are now?

[tribefan40]

If the CAA being fine in VA includes W&M's faceplant in Newark, I guess UD's streak over JMU will extend to 6 seasons

Is a Delaware fan saying that a team can't have a bad game? Seriously?

[Sitting Bull]

What happened?

Well, this last weekend:
1) ESPN Gameday anchored at a CAA campus, exposure rarely seen outside P5 campuses.
2) 5 games brought in a total of 69,260 fans, an average of nearly 14,000 per game.
3) 2 sellouts out of 5 games
4) 3 teams now ranked in the top 15

i think we will be ok.

[superman7515]

Is a Delaware fan saying that a team can't have a bad game? Seriously?

Yes. Any team that loses to Delaware should be required to do three seasons in purgatory before being taken seriously again.

[Sitting Bull]

The UMass debacle has been discussed in length. Georgia State, well, as much as really needs to be.


Now from the greener G5 pastures in Norfolk, the latest take at once thriving ODU...

13 hours ago
barry wilson

The empty seats halfway through the 3rd quarter show the direction the program is heading, no Chowans and club teams for Wilder to pad his awful coaching.




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12 hours ago
Everett Minez, Portsmouth, VA

Halfway through the third quarter my a--. Seats were empty at the opening kick. That they had the nerve to call this a sellout is comical. If it was a sell out there were a lot of folks dressed up as empty seats.....but then it is Halloween.



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As stated before, I think the CAA is holding on at least as well as those that left it.

Just a fools errand. Winning, gone. Tradition, gone. Enthusiasm, gone. But hey, we're playing "FBS" football....