A G5 school says no more FCS games

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Houston has taken a pretty big step for both the AAC and G5 with this decision. I know there were several people who felt that the G5 schools would have to schedule FCS schools. I wonder if other schools in the AAC will follow the Cougar's path.


It’s been a long time coming, but the Houston Cougars have finally decided to stop playing FCS schools when it comes to football. The Cougars are vowing to play at least two power conference teams a season to go along with two non-power conference teams to go along with the school’s eight-game conference schedule.

“We've heard loud and clear (from the fan base) they don't want us to play FCS schools,” Yurachek said.

http://www.houstonpress.com/news/houston-cougars-take-the-next-big-step-7774856

[centennial]

Destroy Southern and Grambling and then bitch about no competition.

[mvemjsunpx]

Letting your vocal fanbase determine how you run your athletic department probably isn't the best strategy. xcoffeex

[superman7515]

Letting your vocal fanbase determine how you run your athletic department probably isn't the best strategy. xcoffeex

Ignoring your vocal fanbase seems to be working miracles at UD. xcoffeex

[citdog]

Ignoring your vocal fanbase seems to be working miracles at UD. xcoffeex

Are they holding seances to contact them?

[bonarae]

Letting your vocal fanbase determine how you run your athletic department probably isn't the best strategy. xcoffeex

It's still on a case-to-case basis though.

[CHIP72]

Speaking as someone who is a fan of a G5 school (Temple) as well as FCS schools, I can tell you that almost all FCS games do zero to move the needle at G5 (and P5) schools. There are some exceptions - Villanova moves the needle at Temple because of the schools' proximity and long-time Philadelphia Big Five basketball rivalry (the two schools play one another in most other men's and women's sports as well), but that example is the exception that proves the rule. When discussing the FCS games issue on the Temple message board, I've stated Temple shouldn't play any schools besides Villanova, Delaware, Lehigh, Lafayette, maybe Delaware State, and either Penn or Princeton if wins against those teams count towards bowl eligibility; these are the FCS schools in the same (Philadelphia) TV market as and/or within 50 miles of Temple. Even among those teams, IMO only Villanova and possibly Delaware truly make sense as opponents from Temple's point of view. A large percentage of Temple fans don't want to see the Owls play any FCS schools, including Villanova (though some of them don't want want Temple playing Villanova because they hate Villanova due to past Big East membership issues), while others say yes to Villanova but no to other FCS teams. Regardless of the fans' exact perspective, pretty much all Temple fans do NOT want to see the Owls play Fordham, Delaware State, or Stony Brook because Temple fans aren't interested in seeing the Owls play those teams and see no upside to playing those teams, no offense to those schools or fans of those schools.

IMO, one of the major reasons why fans of FBS teams look down on FCS games is many of these games are scheduled against teams not in the same metropolitan area or region and/or against schools that are rivals in other sports. If I'm a Houston fan, my attitude would be why the hell are the Cougars not playing Texas Southern or Houston Baptist, or maybe Prairie View A&M, Sam Houston State, or Lamar if they are going to play FCS teams? These are the schools in or near Houston. Even then, my attitude would be why should the Cougars play any of those teams - both Texas Southern nor Houston Baptist are bad in football at a lower level, the other schools aren't located in Houston, and the Cougars aren't rivals with any of these schools in any other major sports. If I'm a Houston fan, I'd much rather play city rival Rice or some of the other old Southwest Conference schools in Texas; I can get excited about those games, but I can't get excited about FCS games, even against teams in or near Houston. You can apply this same logic to every other FBS school out there. And even with P5 schools playing G5 schools vs playing FCS schools, most P5 team fans would say at least a G5 school is at the same level; an upset against a G5 school is not nearly as bad as an upset against a FCS school. Most fans of all FBS teams don't make the distinction between a bad G5 team and a good FCS team, or between good FCS teams and bad FCS teams; they just think any losses or close calls against FCS teams are bad.

What I described above reflects how most fans of FBS teams view games against FCS teams. For the most part, the benefits of FBS/FCS matchups are a one-way street, and that street only moves towards FCS schools. There's good reason why FBS programs would want to discontinue playing FCS teams.

[DFW HOYA]

No school fell off the national map as did Houston after the fall of the Southwest Conference. The Cougars have been in the football top 20 once in the last 25 seasons (2011) and its basketball team has made the NCAA once since 1992. Worse yet, UH is an afterthought in discussions of Big 12 expansion.

Houston sees how TCU, who once owned the cellar of the SWC, was able to schedule up and get attention.

[Catatonic]

What I described above reflects how most fans of FBS teams view games against FCS teams. For the most part, the benefits of FBS/FCS matchups are a one-way street, and that street only moves towards FCS schools. There's good reason why FBS programs would want to discontinue playing FCS teams.

I'm sure that's how fans see it. AD's might look at things differently. FCS teams don't demand return games. Boom. Bonus revenue from an extra home game each year. FBS teams will likely win against FCS teams. Boom. A win that counts toward bowl eligibility and additional media exposure/practice.

I do agree that it is best when FBS teams play FCS teams from their state/region. FBS fans in Philadelphia might not know the difference between wretched and good FCS teams, but I assure you fans in Texas understand that Prairie View and Sam Houston represent very different levels of competition and fans in Georgia knew that Ga State and Georgia Southern (before they moved up ) presented different levels of challenge.

I don't know what Houston will wind up doing, but the idea of scheduling, say, New Mexico State and somehow considering it an upgrade from playing Sam Houston is laughable.

I could be wrong but I think Houston's decision is part of a campaign for P5 membership when the B12 expands.

[TennBison]

Lets face it, the days of most big time college football programs like Ohio St, Alabama, and Michigan and such playing a FCS school are pretty much at an end. Those schools if they want to win a national championship are not going to get there with a strength of schedule that has almost any FCS school on it. Pretty soon any school that thinks it can win a National championship will either be dropping FCS schools or not even asking them to play in the future. The only FBS vs FCS match ups are going to come from the Mountain West, Sun Belt and conferences like that who never really had a shot at being #1.

[Catatonic]

No school fell off the national map as did Houston after the fall of the Southwest Conference. The Cougars have been in the football top 20 once in the last 25 seasons (2011) and its basketball team has made the NCAA once since 1992. Worse yet, UH is an afterthought in discussions of Big 12 expansion.

Houston sees how TCU, who once owned the cellar of the SWC, was able to schedule up and get attention.

TCU still plays FCS teams though.

[TennBison]

TCU still plays FCS teams though.

And to prove it, they just played Minnesota, lol.

[dgtw]

TCU got in the B12 because they got lucky and were good at the time they needed new members.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cocky]

No school fell off the national map as did Houston after the fall of the Southwest Conference. The Cougars have been in the football top 20 once in the last 25 seasons (2011) and its basketball team has made the NCAA once since 1992. Worse yet, UH is an afterthought in discussions of Big 12 expansion.

Houston sees how TCU, who once owned the cellar of the SWC, was able to schedule up and get attention.

Houstons academics have improved since the SWC days.

[Cocky]

Lets face it, the days of most big time college football programs like Ohio St, Alabama, and Michigan and such playing a FCS school are pretty much at an end. Those schools if they want to win a national championship are not going to get there with a strength of schedule that has almost any FCS school on it. Pretty soon any school that thinks it can win a National championship will either be dropping FCS schools or not even asking them to play in the future. The only FBS vs FCS match ups are going to come from the Mountain West, Sun Belt and conferences like that who never really had a shot at being #1.


UAT has stated they plan to continue playing FCS schools (just not in state ones).

[Sitting Bull]

I noted elsewhere, I don't get the point or even the wisdom of making a public statement like that. If you don't want to schedule certain teams, then don't. 99% of any schools fan base won't know the difference between an FCS or G5 opponent anyway. They're both minor league compared to the power schools.

As far as the games themselves, leave it up to the individual schools. There are reasons and advantages to both sides why most are scheduled.

And on on these games, W&M takes on UVA today in the 35th game in this series. Are UVA fans excited? Likely more so than if they were lining up against Ball State or Troy. Some fans likely have or had a kid at both schools (the brighter ones at W&M). Second, they need a win. Of course if the Tribe can pull one out like 2009, then maybe another reason UVA would want to schedule would be simply for revenge. We are on the docket again in 2017.

[Catatonic]

Houstons academics have improved since the SWC days.

The Texas Higher Education Board designated Houston along with Texas Tech and a couple of other Texas schools as "Emerging Research Universities" These schools have received targeted funding from the state legislature to improve the quality of graduate education in an effort to increase the number of research universities in the state. Presently there are only3-UT, TAMU and Rice. In contrast, there are 9 in California. Houston has used the money to enhance its academics, for sure.

[superman7515]

99% of any schools fan base won't know the difference between an FCS or G5 opponent anyway.

Gotta respectfully disagree there, there is a very VERY large gap in the number of people who know the G5 schools and the FCS schools. They know who Western Kentucky is, they don't know who Eastern Kentucky is. They know who Arkansas State is, they don't know who Arkansas Pine Bluff is. They know who Louisiana Tech is, they don't know who Nicholls State is.

21 years of EA Sports college football games made sure of that. There might not be a big difference in the play on the field, but the school they have heard of will move the meter long before the school they don't know. As long as a Marshall, Boise State, Hawai'i, Louisville, Fresno State, Ball State, etc from the G5 can go on a run and get a lot of publicity that the FCS can't, they will know there is a difference if for no other reason than because they have no idea who the FCS teams are. Delaware isn't Harvard, but the academics aren't exactly shoddy in Newark either, it's a great school. I would be willing to bet a very large amount of money that if you polled the entire student body, better than 50% do not know that UD plays Division 1 football. I work with UD grads who to this day don't believe me that UD plays D1 football because if they did, "Why doesn't Maryland, Rutgers, or Penn State ever come to Delaware? Temple plays them at home!"

[TennBison]

I noted elsewhere, I don't get the point or even the wisdom of making a public statement like that. If you don't want to schedule certain teams, then don't. 99% of any schools fan base won't know the difference between an FCS or G5 opponent anyway. They're both minor league compared to the power schools.

As far as the games themselves, leave it up to the individual schools. There are reasons and advantages to both sides why most are scheduled.

And on on these games, W&M takes on UVA today in the 35th game in this series. Are UVA fans excited? Likely more so than if they were lining up against Ball State or Troy. Some fans likely have or had a kid at both schools (the brighter ones at W&M). Second, they need a win. Of course if the Tribe can pull one out like 2009, then maybe another reason UVA would want to schedule would be simply for revenge. We are on the docket again in 2017.

Like I said before, any FBS school that thinks it is going to have a shot at a national title will not continue to schedule FCS schools. They want to have the strongest strength of schedule possible. Ohio St. probably would not make the top 4 to get into their playoffs if they went undefeated with 2-3 FCS schools on the schedule compared to Alabama going 11-1 playing SEC and 3 top 25 teams for out of conference games. UVA is not in the hunt now or any time in the next few years for a national title.

[aceinthehole]

Gotta respectfully disagree there, there is a very VERY large gap in the number of people who know the G5 schools and the FCS schools. They know who Western Kentucky is, they don't know who Eastern Kentucky is. They know who Arkansas State is, they don't know who Arkansas Pine Bluff is. They know who Louisiana Tech is, they don't know who Nicholls State is.

21 years of EA Sports college football games made sure of that. There might not be a big difference in the play on the field, but the school they have heard of will move the meter long before the school they don't know. As long as a Marshall, Boise State, Hawai'i, Louisville, Fresno State, Ball State, etc from the G5 can go on a run and get a lot of publicity that the FCS can't, they will know there is a difference if for no other reason than because they have no idea who the FCS teams are. Delaware isn't Harvard, but the academics aren't exactly shoddy in Newark either, it's a great school. I would be willing to bet a very large amount of money that if you polled the entire student body, better than 50% do not know that UD plays Division 1 football. I work with UD grads who to this day don't believe me that UD plays D1 football because if they did, "Why doesn't Maryland, Rutgers, or Penn State ever come to Delaware? Temple plays them at home!"

I agree, the "average" or "casual" college football fan recognizes the HUGE "gap" between FBS/I-A and FCS/I-AA schools - but EA Sports didn't have any impact.

ESPN and the regional sports networks (and major news publications) have created the perception gap. Watch any college football pregame shows and they NEVER cover FCS teams unless they are playing at a FBS team, and then all the analysis is about the FBS team. Those WAC, MAC, C-USA, and Sun Belt teams get far more coverage than FCS team ever does - it is un-debatable.

For the average sports fan sitting at a bar on a Saturday watching the sports ticker and game highlights will rarely see an FCS team, especially after week 3. Furthermore, a team like SJSU, Marshall, or Ball State can go on a run and make waves in these coverage late in the season. Nothing that a SHSU or a Villanova can do to break into that TV coverage on a regular basis throughout the season.

Villanova may be as good as Boston College recently, but they average fan will never know it, or see it on TV. Eastern Washington may be a better program than Central Florida, but that won't be reflected in TV coverage on a week-to-week basis. That's the difference.

[DFW HOYA]

TCU still plays FCS teams though.

Of course they do. Other than Notre Dame and USC, I think every I-A team has at some point.

However, TCU had the advantage of being willing to schedule up when they were in the MWC, and that's the reputation Houston wants to portray.

[CrazyCat]

Like I said before, any FBS school that thinks it is going to have a shot at a national title will not continue to schedule FCS schools. They want to have the strongest strength of schedule possible.

I guess the PAC12 didn't get that memo. They are scheduling EWU,MSU, and UM to multi year arrangements that go to 2021.

[Catatonic]

I guess the PAC12 didn't get that memo. They are scheduling EWU,MSU, and UM to multi year arrangements that go to 2021.

The ACC, SEC and most of the B12 missed that memo as well.

[uni88]

I'm sure that's how fans see it. AD's might look at things differently. FCS teams don't demand return games. Boom. Bonus revenue from an extra home game each year. FBS teams will likely win against FCS teams. Boom. A win that counts toward bowl eligibility and additional media exposure/practice.

I do agree that it is best when FBS teams play FCS teams from their state/region. FBS fans in Philadelphia might not know the difference between wretched and good FCS teams, but I assure you fans in Texas understand that Prairie View and Sam Houston represent very different levels of competition and fans in Georgia knew that Ga State and Georgia Southern (before they moved up ) presented different levels of challenge.

I don't know what Houston will wind up doing, but the idea of scheduling, say, New Mexico State and somehow considering it an upgrade from playing Sam Houston is laughable.

I could be wrong but I think Houston's decision is part of a campaign for P5 membership when the B12 expands.

Lots of good points in this thread.

1) Teams that believe they can contend for a national title will avoid FCS games to keep their SOS high.

2) Teams that don't believe they can contend will consider FCS games because of the points listed above:
a) No return games required. More home games = more revenue which can be used to build the program and athletic department.
b) Good chance at getting a win.

3) As teams move toward eliminating FCS teams from their schedule, the cost of scheduling G5 teams is going to go up. MAC teams are going to be able to charge more with the B1G0 prohibiting FCS games. This will make FCS games more attractive to those that don't prohibit them.

[Sitting Bull]

Gotta respectfully disagree there, there is a very VERY large gap in the number of people who know the G5 schools and the FCS schools. They know who Western Kentucky is, they don't know who Eastern Kentucky is. They know who Arkansas State is, they don't know who Arkansas Pine Bluff is. They know who Louisiana Tech is, they don't know who Nicholls State is.

21 years of EA Sports college football games made sure of that. There might not be a big difference in the play on the field, but the school they have heard of will move the meter long before the school they don't know. As long as a Marshall, Boise State, Hawai'i, Louisville, Fresno State, Ball State, etc from the G5 can go on a run and get a lot of publicity that the FCS can't, they will know there is a difference if for no other reason than because they have no idea who the FCS teams are. Delaware isn't Harvard, but the academics aren't exactly shoddy in Newark either, it's a great school. I would be willing to bet a very large amount of money that if you polled the entire student body, better than 50% do not know that UD plays Division 1 football. I work with UD grads who to this day don't believe me that UD plays D1 football because if they did, "Why doesn't Maryland, Rutgers, or Penn State ever come to Delaware? Temple plays them at home!"

We will disagree then. I'm saying for the large number of casual fans and wouldn't include the AAC or MW as examples. My comment was better directed more for MAC, CUSA and Sunbelt opponents.

Pick any team in these leagues and try and convince the average UVA fan that it is a higher quality opponent than W&M, they would probably laugh at it.

And fwiw, a win against an FCS team isn't going to make a bit of difference on whether a team wins a National Championship. Never slowed down Alabama or Auburn.

[JALMOND]

I guess the PAC12 didn't get that memo. They are scheduling EWU,MSU, and UM to multi year arrangements that go to 2021.

What the Pac-12 has found out is that they get a guaranteed home game with the Big Sky (and usually a team in the area). Getting a Big 10, or a Big 12 team to play at a Pac-12 team, in a stadium that is usually smaller and not much prestige, is a tall order at best. The Mountain West wants to think they are on the same level as the Pac-12 so they will hold out for a chance to get a home and home and the Pac-12 does not want to go to a Mountain West stadium, for reasons given about the Big 10 coming to the Pac-12. The Pac-12 can get the Big Sky to play at their stadium, and the Big Sky fans usually come out and support their team at the Pac-12 stadium so you get a good crowd on days when the students aren't there, and usually a win in front of the alumni and boosters. The Pac-12 needs the Big Sky, as well as the lesser DI teams in the area (Idaho, New Mexico State, Hawaii) to fill out their schedules. USC, UCLA and Stanford can get the Big 10 and Big 12 to come to their house and play, but the other Pac-12 schools, including Oregon, have a more difficult time getting those types of teams to play them at home, so they stick to their model of FCS (usually Big Sky) at home, a P5 team preferably on a neutral field but usually on the road, and another game preferably at home against the Mountain West or the Sun Belt.

[Catatonic]

Lots of good points in this thread.

1) Teams that believe they can contend for a national title will avoid FCS games to keep their SOS high.

.

3 of the 4 teams that made the play offs last year played FCS opponents. Ohio State substituted a hapless G5 team in place of a FCS team.

There was a lot of talk about Baylor's SOS being so low because they played an FCS team but it was more likely because a. Unlike the other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not play an ooc game vs a P5 opponent and b. unlike other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not win an outright conference title, either through a title game or as a declared champion by their conference.

[Sitting Bull]

3 of the 4 teams that made the play offs last year played FCS opponents. Ohio State substituted a hapless G5 team in place of a FCS team.

There was a lot of talk about Baylor's SOS being so low because they played an FCS team but it was more likely because a. Unlike the other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not play an ooc game vs a P5 opponent and b. unlike other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not win an outright conference title, either through a title game or as a declared champion by their conference.

Good point.

Just looking at Sagarin, which I would assume would be a source on SOS, W&M is currently ranked higher than:
9 teams in CUSA
5 teams in the MAC
4 teams in the Sunbelt
3 teams in the MW
2 teams in the AAC

i didn't check but would bet a school like ND State or Villanova would be above the full majority of G5.

[TennBison]

The ACC, SEC and most of the B12 missed that memo as well.

How many teams from the PAC 12 really have a shot, USC, and Oregon. And my statement is based on comments made by the members of the committee that select the 4 teams for the FBS playoffs. There have been numerous interviews with them where it has been stated that strength of schedule is going to be a big determining factor in some teams getting in over others. And it has been stated that teams lining their season with FCS schools to get what they think is a guaranteed win are going to suffer for it. Even if they played NDSU, it will not matter. The powers that be in the NCAA are going to go for who has the biggest name wins when it comes down to two teams that have the same record, that already happened last year.

[Catatonic]

And my statement is based on comments made by the members of the committee that select the 4 teams for the FBS playoffs. There have been numerous interviews with them where it has been stated that strength of schedule is going to be a big determining factor in some teams getting in over others. .

To say SOS will be a factor is not the same as saying you will be penalized if you play a team from FCS as opposed to a G5 OOC opponent. Here is a link to ESPNs SOS rankings for 2015. Alabama's SOS is ranked number one despite playing FCS Charleston Southern. Ohio State plays no FCS teams but is ranked 52nd.

addendum: I did a little further checking. 7 of the teams with the toughest SOS included an opponent from the FCS. This underscores the point that it is very possible to have a challenging schedule that is sure to please the selection committee without refusing to play FCS schools.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/teamratings/_/sort/sosRemainingRank/order/false/key/20150903040000

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Speaking as someone who is a fan of a G5 school (Temple) as well as FCS schools, I can tell you that almost all FCS games do zero to move the needle at G5 (and P5) schools. There are some exceptions - Villanova moves the needle at Temple because of the schools' proximity and long-time Philadelphia Big Five basketball rivalry (the two schools play one another in most other men's and women's sports as well), but that example is the exception that proves the rule. When discussing the FCS games issue on the Temple message board, I've stated Temple shouldn't play any schools besides Villanova, Delaware, Lehigh, Lafayette, maybe Delaware State, and either Penn or Princeton if wins against those teams count towards bowl eligibility; these are the FCS schools in the same (Philadelphia) TV market as and/or within 50 miles of Temple. Even among those teams, IMO only Villanova and possibly Delaware truly make sense as opponents from Temple's point of view. A large percentage of Temple fans don't want to see the Owls play any FCS schools, including Villanova (though some of them don't want want Temple playing Villanova because they hate Villanova due to past Big East membership issues), while others say yes to Villanova but no to other FCS teams. Regardless of the fans' exact perspective, pretty much all Temple fans do NOT want to see the Owls play Fordham, Delaware State, or Stony Brook because Temple fans aren't interested in seeing the Owls play those teams and see no upside to playing those teams, no offense to those schools or fans of those schools.

IMO, one of the major reasons why fans of FBS teams look down on FCS games is many of these games are scheduled against teams not in the same metropolitan area or region and/or against schools that are rivals in other sports. If I'm a Houston fan, my attitude would be why the hell are the Cougars not playing Texas Southern or Houston Baptist, or maybe Prairie View A&M, Sam Houston State, or Lamar if they are going to play FCS teams? These are the schools in or near Houston. Even then, my attitude would be why should the Cougars play any of those teams - both Texas Southern nor Houston Baptist are bad in football at a lower level, the other schools aren't located in Houston, and the Cougars aren't rivals with any of these schools in any other major sports. If I'm a Houston fan, I'd much rather play city rival Rice or some of the other old Southwest Conference schools in Texas; I can get excited about those games, but I can't get excited about FCS games, even against teams in or near Houston. You can apply this same logic to every other FBS school out there. And even with P5 schools playing G5 schools vs playing FCS schools, most P5 team fans would say at least a G5 school is at the same level; an upset against a G5 school is not nearly as bad as an upset against a FCS school. Most fans of all FBS teams don't make the distinction between a bad G5 team and a good FCS team, or between good FCS teams and bad FCS teams; they just think any losses or close calls against FCS teams are bad.'t

What I described above reflects how most fans of FBS teams view games against FCS teams. For the most part, the benefits of FBS/FCS matchups are a one-way street, and that street only moves towards FCS schools. There's good reason why FBS programs would want to discontinue playing FCS teams.

Nailed it. As an Army fan, the only FCS opponents that I want to see on the schedule would be The Citadel, VMI, or Fordham. Otherwise, the rest of the teams aren't exciting to me. (Yes, I know some FCS teams, I omitted, could beat Army.)

[TennBison]

To say SOS will be a factor is not the same as saying you will be penalized if you play a team from FCS as opposed to a G5 OOC opponent. Here is a link to ESPNs SOS rankings for 2015. Alabama's SOS is ranked number one despite playing FCS Charleston Southern. Ohio State plays no FCS teams but is ranked 52nd.

addendum: I did a little further checking. 7 of the teams with the toughest SOS included an opponent from the FCS. This underscores the point that it is very possible to have a challenging schedule that is sure to please the selection committee without refusing to play FCS schools.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/teamratings/_/sort/sosRemainingRank/order/false/key/20150903040000
FFS you just keep fighting this don't you, SOS is the most important thing right next to head to head. FCS schools usually bring down a teams SOS.....usually. Alabama benefits from being in the SEC in which it seems almost every team is in the top 25. Ohio St plays in a conference where maybe 4 end up in the top 25 at the end. Schools who are not a lock based on name or on the conference they are in are going to have to look at who they are playing. Look at Boise St years ago and today, they are trying like hell to play any top team they can get, why, because they know they have no shot by putting FC S schools on their schedule. Even if they would have gone undefeated they probably have no shot unless they play Georgia, Alabama, Ohio St and win.

[Sitting Bull]

Nailed it. As an Army fan, the only FCS opponents that I want to see on the schedule would be The Citadel, VMI, or Fordham. Otherwise, the rest of the teams aren't exciting to me. (Yes, I know some FCS teams, I omitted, could beat Army.)

Army and Temple have some of the worst records in FCS games, so can understand why you don't like them. If you won them, you probably wouldn't care.

I have no problem with a school who might make the decision, I just don't believe in moratoriums. And I think much of the rationale is flawed.

Outside of a Penn State or ND, a Villanova game at Temple will sell tickets and have interest on both sides. Same with Army - a game agianst Fordham, Yale, Stony Brook - is going to have more local interest than the Eastern Michigans and North Texas games they would fill to replace them.

It should be viewed on a by school, by opponent basis - not whether a team is FCS or a lower level G5, pretenders in the FBS world.

[Catatonic]

FFS you just keep fighting this don't you, SOS is the most important thing right next to head to head. FCS schools usually bring down a teams SOS.....usually. Alabama benefits from being in the SEC in which it seems almost every team is in the top 25. Ohio St plays in a conference where maybe 4 end up in the top 25 at the end. Schools who are not a lock based on name or on the conference they are in are going to have to look at who they are playing. Look at Boise St years ago and today, they are trying like hell to play any top team they can get, why, because they know they have no shot by putting FC S schools on their schedule. Even if they would have gone undefeated they probably have no shot unless they play Georgia, Alabama, Ohio St and win.

Boise State is not going to the playoffs. Not gonna happen, at least as long as the playoff is limited to 4 teams and there are 5 power conferences.

I agree that Ohio State plays in a weak conference. Their SOS isn't going to get much of a boost by playing weak G5 teams over solid FCS teams though. They didn't get in last year because they played Kent State instead of North Dakota State or Northern Iowa. They got in because they won a conference championship on the field, the number one criterion listed by the Selection Committee.

[Bisonwinagn]

G5 schools have no chance at the playoff regardless of SOS. Power 5 teams already have the SOS just by winning the conference championship. I've said it 100 times but playing FCS schools or not is completely irrelevant to any team in the FBS.

[Catatonic]

G5 schools have no chance at the playoff regardless of SOS. Power 5 teams already have the SOS just by winning the conference championship. I've said it 100 times but playing FCS schools or not is completely irrelevant to any team in the FBS.

Exactly. Whew, glad you came along. You can carry on the discussion with your fellow Bison. I have a football game to attend.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Army and Temple have some of the worst records in FCS games, so can understand why you don't like them. If you won them, you probably wouldn't care.

I have no problem with a school who might make the decision, I just don't believe in moratoriums. And I think much of the rationale is flawed.

Outside of a Penn State or ND, a Villanova game at Temple will sell tickets and have interest on both sides. Same with Army - a game agianst Fordham, Yale, Stony Brook - is going to have more local interest than the Eastern Michigans and North Texas games they would fill to replace them.

It should be viewed on a by school, by opponent basis - not whether a team is FCS or a lower level G5, pretenders in the FBS world.


Army's record against FCS opponents has nothing to do with my stance.

Games against FCS opponents are a classic catch 22. Nothing to gain, everything to lose. So, I can understand why some teams refuse to play FCS teams. The local interest is a good point, but a win against Eastern Michigan counts towards bowl eligibility and it is a FBS opponent. Those matter, even if a FCS is better than them.

But it is immensely silly that whole conferences will ban FCS games.

[uni88]

3 of the 4 teams that made the play offs last year played FCS opponents. Ohio State substituted a hapless G5 team in place of a FCS team.

There was a lot of talk about Baylor's SOS being so low because they played an FCS team but it was more likely because a. Unlike the other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not play an ooc game vs a P5 opponent and b. unlike other teams in the playoffs the Bears did not win an outright conference title, either through a title game or as a declared champion by their conference.
Key word in my statement was WILL avoid. I didn't say they are already avoiding them or that they're hurting them now but I do think that more teams are going to avoid them in the future. The contest for the 4 spots is going to get more competitive and just winning a conference championship is not enough. You have to win by comparison to the other contenders and they're all going to be looking for ways to improve their resumes.

[Sitting Bull]

Army's record against FCS opponents has nothing to do with my stance.

Games against FCS opponents are a classic catch 22. Nothing to gain, everything to lose. So, I can understand why some teams refuse to play FCS teams. The local interest is a good point, but a win against Eastern Michigan counts towards bowl eligibility and it is a FBS opponent. Those matter, even if a FCS is better than them.

But it is immensely silly that whole conferences will ban FCS games.

A win against an FCS team does count toward bowl eligibility.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

A win against an FCS team does count toward bowl eligibility.


Yes, I know.

My sentence said a Eastern Michigan win counts towards bowl eligibility and it is a FBS win. FBS wins are simply worth more than FCS wins.

[clenz]

Yes, I know.

My sentence said a Eastern Michigan win counts towards bowl eligibility and it is a FBS win. FBS wins are simply worth more than FCS wins.
When it comes to non playoff teams it doesn't.

Teams fighting for a Kraft Hunger Bowl over the Motor City bowl aren't going to lose it because they beat Directional FCS school and not Directional FBS school

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

[Go...gate]

Nailed it. As an Army fan, the only FCS opponents that I want to see on the schedule would be The Citadel, VMI, or Fordham. Otherwise, the rest of the teams aren't exciting to me. (Yes, I know some FCS teams, I omitted, could beat Army.)

Why not the Patriot or Ivy Leagues? USMA is a member of the Patriot for all other sports and has often played Patriot and Ivy schools in football.

[RootinFerDukes]

The G5 schools need Fcs games more than P5 schools do. You just replaced a 98% chance of a win with an 80% chance of a loss. You need wins to get to the papa johns Bahama mama fried chicken bowl in the Ukraine.
If you don't win, fans get bored. If fans get bored, they stop showing up. They stop watching on TV. They stop buying Houston cougar baby onesies.

[RootinFerDukes]

Are they holding seances to contact them?

I'm literally laughing out loud.

[RootinFerDukes]

We will disagree then. I'm saying for the large number of casual fans and wouldn't include the AAC or MW as examples. My comment was better directed more for MAC, CUSA and Sunbelt opponents.

Pick any team in these leagues and try and convince the average UVA fan that it is a higher quality opponent than W&M, they would probably laugh at it.

And fwiw, a win against an FCS team isn't going to make a bit of difference on whether a team wins a National Championship. Never slowed down Alabama or Auburn.

Did you see auburn plummet from 6 to 18 in one week after beating Jacksonville state. They won and became less likely to sniff a national title.
The biggest problem that none of the schools are admitting is... What if we actually lose to these Fcs schools?
We can thank app state, JMU and ewu for knocking off ranked teams and starting this discussion once they realized that the Fcs is stronger than they believed.
If you can't beat em, stop scheduling them.

[RootinFerDukes]

G5 schools have no chance at the playoff regardless of SOS. Power 5 teams already have the SOS just by winning the conference championship. I've said it 100 times but playing FCS schools or not is completely irrelevant to any team in the FBS.

I completely agree, but unfortunately perception is reality here and what they think is all that matters.
I think they're scheduling losses. You should be careful what you wish for.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Houston AD: Great! Now we'll play Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Notre Dame! This is great for us!

Notre Dame AD: We have a spare home date the second week in November in 2025 for a one-game deal. Take it or leave it.

Texas AD: A home and home? Are you kidding? We offer a one-game deal in 2021, because we like to help in-state schools out (laughs under breath). Take it or leave it.

HAD: How much?

TAD: $300,000.

HAD: Isn't that the same amount you paid Grambling?

TAD: Look, we don't need to schedule you. We can get any school we want; we're doing you a favor.

HAD: So Texas, TAMU, TCU are out, then, filling their schedules with FCS schools that count for bowl eligibility and P5 schools? Who do we schedule for home-and-homes, then, as FBS schools, Texas State and Tulane?

Assistant: The latest Sagarin ratings came out. North Dakota State and Sam Houston State have higher ratings than both of those schools.

[CasualFan]

Not sure if it's relevant, but Houston's AD (Hunter Yurachek) was AD at Coastal from 2010 to 2014. It was during his time that CCU stopped scheduling FBS paycheck games at Coach Moglia's request.

[CHIP72]

Army and Temple have some of the worst records in FCS games, so can understand why you don't like them. If you won them, you probably wouldn't care.

I have no problem with a school who might make the decision, I just don't believe in moratoriums. And I think much of the rationale is flawed.

Outside of a Penn State or ND, a Villanova game at Temple will sell tickets and have interest on both sides. Same with Army - a game agianst Fordham, Yale, Stony Brook - is going to have more local interest than the Eastern Michigans and North Texas games they would fill to replace them.

It should be viewed on a by school, by opponent basis - not whether a team is FCS or a lower level G5, pretenders in the FBS world.

Quite frankly, you aren't looking at the whole picture (i.e. both the FCS team and G5 team perspectives), and no, Temple's record against FCS teams (most of which is against Villanova, usually a much better than average FCS team) isn't the reason for my comments. The reality is G5 programs, especially those that have played in Division I-A/FBS for many years, are much more visible than Division I-AA/FCS teams, and even if those G5 teams are currently poor/bad, wins over those teams are perceived more positively and losses to those teams are perceived much less negatively than wins and losses against Division I-AA/FCS teams. I mean, look at last week - Auburn nearly lost to Jacksonville State, and Arkansas did lose to Toledo. Which SEC team got dinged more for their performance? It was the SEC team that nearly lost to a top 5 FCS team, not the SEC team that actually lost to a good MAC team. Toledo and Jacksonville State probably aren't all that different in quality right now, so if fans were basing it on opponent quality, Arkansas would have been more scrutinized.

I can give you another example - Temple was bad in 2013 (2-10 final record) and lost to both Fordham (home) and Idaho (road). Fordham was a Division I-AA/FCS playoff team in 2013, while Idaho won one game (the one against Temple) in 2013 and I think lost 8 games by at least 16 points. By any objective standard, Fordham was almost definitely better than Idaho in 2013. But which loss upset Temple fans more, and to this day which loss do most Temple fans perceive as being the worse loss? It was/is the Fordham loss. Poor/bad G5 or lower level Division I-A/FBS teams are perceived as being better than all or most Division I-AA/FCS teams, including many playoff games. That perception discrepancy is one of the major reasons why many Division I-AA/FCS programs are moving up to Division I-A/FBS, even though they are going from being strong Division I-AA/FCS teams to weak Division I-A/FBS teams.

From the general college football, non-FCS fan perspective, good FCS teams are similar to the tallest dwarfs - it doesn't matter that they are tall among the dwarf population, they are still dwarfs and still shorter than regular people (i.e. FBS teams). It is only on places like this site where fans care about the distinctions among Division I-AA/FCS teams. Most fans don't care about that.

[Vooter]

The biggest problem that none of the schools are admitting is... What if we actually lose to these Fcs schools?

Which is exactly why I prefer FCS football--FBS is just seedy, insular, semi-pro football that's becoming as boring as the seedy, insular NFL...whatever...

[CHIP72]

Let me put another spin on this - yesterday (Saturday 9/19), the Northern Illinois at Ohio State game was televised on ABC, a national, over-the-air network. Obviously some of that was due to the time of the season and lack of high quality national matchups. But do you think ESPN televises any P5 team vs FCS team game on ABC, ever?

I'll give you another example - if you look at the ESPNU and ESPNews schedules through the first three weeks, particularly the games they televised at 12 PM ET and 3:30/4 PM ET, you'll see they generally put the P5/G5 games on ESPNU and the FBS/FCS games on ESPNews, regardless of the quality of the "smaller" school playing in the game. ESPNU is focused on college sports and primarily televises games, while ESPNews is focused on sports news and rarely televises live sports events outside of Saturday college football games (though they do show some decent games on ESPNews in the 8 PM ET time slot). Which channel do you think ESPN classifies as being higher in its college football game coverage pecking order?

One final example - a few weeks ago there was worthwhile discussion on AGS of ESPN's decision to move the Coastal Carolina/Liberty game in November to a Thursday night and televise it on ESPNews. Obviously this is excellent news for both Coastal Carolina and Liberty. But teams in G5 conferences have games televised on weeknights on the ESPN family of networks, including sometimes ESPN or ESPN2, pretty much every week during the second half of every season. What was noteworthy national TV-wise for Coastal Carolina/Liberty is commonplace for many G5 (not to mention some P5) FBS leagues/schools.

The perception of quality gap between BCS G5 leagues/schools and FCS leagues/schools is a major reason why FBS leagues/schools, including some G5 leagues/schools, are questioning the benefits of playing FCS teams. If you are a G5 school, a 1 for 2 agreement with a high profile FBS school provides a lot more visibility than playing (and paying) 3 FCS schools for games.

[CHIP72]

Which is exactly why I prefer FCS football--FBS is just seedy, insular, semi-pro football that's becoming as boring as the seedy, insular NFL...whatever...

You know, some of the same things can be said when FCS schools play and lose to Division II schools, or when Division II schools play and lose to Division III schools. This thumbing up one's nose at acknowledging the quality of some lower classification teams below the level of one's own team is true at all levels of college football.

[Sitting Bull]

It is only on places like this site where fans care about the distinctions among Division I-AA/FCS teams. Most fans don't care about that.

I think I get it, your last comment is pretty much my point.

Face it, in the real split between the powers and all others, most of G5 is a sham. Like the Pioneer League in FCS, they really aren't in the hunt for a championship. They are there as you have used the word several times - for perception. I like reality better.

And I think it stinks for college football that you have to discount old rivalries - like Temple/Villanova - for ridiculous matchups with Idaho - or pick your G5 team - for perception purposes, just because a team is pretending to be in the same pool with Alabama.

Eventually I think this masquerade, and that's what it is, will be restructured. It is going to eventually break the backs, like UAB, of some of these schools. UMass is now in year 4 of this charade. They drew 10,000 fans into Gilette for the Temple game yesterday, less than what they used to average in the CAA. How much money are they wasting in this effort- and has it really raised their university profile? It can't go on like that forever.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me put another spin on this - yesterday (Saturday 9/19), the Northern Illinois at Ohio State game was televised on ABC, a national, over-the-air network. Obviously some of that was due to the time of the season and lack of high quality national matchups. But do you think ESPN televises any P5 team vs FCS team game on ABC, ever?.

This was literally a blue moon sort of scenario that a MAC team got put on half of the ABC affiliates (the other half got Nebraska/Miami) opposite of Auburn/LSU, which was airing nationally on CBS. ABC's "big game" in the afternoon was the one that preceded it. AFA at Michigan State. You're trying to pitch this as if this were 1) some sort of draw over Alabama/LSU and 2) such games occur all the time on ABC. Neither case is true.

Trying to debate whether ESPNU/ESPNews is a more quality outlet is a silly exercise. Both reach a minority of homes and both are available to those that want to find it enough, but they never come close to the reach of the ESPN flagship. NDSU/Montana got more exposure on ESPN than any game on ESPNU or ESPNews, and frankly it's not even close.

If you're going to FBS in an effort to get a September game televised on ABC, be prepared to wait a very long time.

[RootinFerDukes]

I saw wofford at Clemson in Richmond va on our local fox station. A major network did pick up a game with an Fcs opponent. NBC airs the southern/grambling game each year.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

When it comes to non playoff teams it doesn't.

Teams fighting for a Kraft Hunger Bowl over the Motor City bowl aren't going to lose it because they beat Directional FCS school and not Directional FBS school

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

Perception matters. Be it false or true.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

I think I get it, your last comment is pretty much my point.

Face it, in the real split between the powers and all others, most of G5 is a sham. Like the Pioneer League in FCS, they really aren't in the hunt for a championship. They are there as you have used the word several times - for perception. I like reality better.

And I think it stinks for college football that you have to discount old rivalries - like Temple/Villanova - for ridiculous matchups with Idaho - or pick your G5 team - for perception purposes, just because a team is pretending to be in the same pool with Alabama.

Eventually I think this masquerade, and that's what it is, will be restructured. It is going to eventually break the backs, like UAB, of some of these schools. UMass is now in year 4 of this charade. They drew 10,000 fans into Gilette for the Temple game yesterday, less than what they used to average in the CAA. How much money are they wasting in this effort- and has it really raised their university profile? It can't go on like that forever.

UAB football died because the corruption in the board of trustees.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Why not the Patriot or Ivy Leagues? USMA is a member of the Patriot for all other sports and has often played Patriot and Ivy schools in football.

Those teams simply don't interest me. Army does have a proud history with the Ivy, especially Yale, but I prefer to let those gridiron ghosts gently rest in the halcyon days of the early 1900's. As for the Patriot, no thanks. It is a great Olympic sports league, but our football history is lacking with them.

I picked The Citadel and VMI for being similar schools and Fordham is a local team that could develop into a good opening week rivalry.

[Sitting Bull]

UAB football died because the corruption in the board of trustees.

Thats the conspiracy theory.

UAB football died because they didn't have enough fans to support a program playing FBS football. When you average 10-15000 fans a game, some in the 6,000 range, you can't support an FBS program (see UMass).

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

Thats the conspiracy theory.

UAB football died because they didn't have enough fans to support a program playing FBS football. When you average 10-15000 fans a game, some in the 6,000 range, you can't support an FBS program (see UMass).

Ask a knowledgeable UAB fan on the CSNBBS board. They provided enough proof to show it was an inside job.

[DFW HOYA]

Why not the Patriot or Ivy Leagues? USMA is a member of the Patriot for all other sports and has often played Patriot and Ivy schools in football.

Army is not giving up I-A to play at Multi-Sport Field.

But more to the point, no three-star general in the Pentagon wants to hear from the Air Force or the Navy brass that "your Army boys aren't good enough to play real football anymore."

[Sitting Bull]

Ask a knowledgeable UAB fan on the CSNBBS board. They provided enough proof to show it was an inside job.

I saw same - some who were obviously upset - not sure how knowledgable they really were or exactly what proof really had any meaning. It read more to me that they were looking for a scapegoat (Alabama/Tuscaloosa) for a horrible program.

That never passed the smell test to me - for one, why would they care? And two, it is a given fact that the UAB program had anemic attendance and was bleeding money. UAB bares the responsibility in my view.

Was Alabama Tuscaloosa just supposed to subsidize this forever? Why should they?

I wouldn't confuse a need for logic and cost containment with some conspiracy to put the UAB football program out of business.

[clenz]

So the stadium is near unsafe to be in
The program draws 20 fans per game
They didn't really ever win at even a relatively consistent level
The fans they had didn't donate

But year...it's UAT's fault the program was broke as ****

[CHIP72]

This was literally a blue moon sort of scenario that a MAC team got put on half of the ABC affiliates (the other half got Nebraska/Miami) opposite of Auburn/LSU, which was airing nationally on CBS. ABC's "big game" in the afternoon was the one that preceded it. AFA at Michigan State. You're trying to pitch this as if this were 1) some sort of draw over Alabama/LSU and 2) such games occur all the time on ABC. Neither case is true.

Trying to debate whether ESPNU/ESPNews is a more quality outlet is a silly exercise. Both reach a minority of homes and both are available to those that want to find it enough, but they never come close to the reach of the ESPN flagship.

NDSU/Montana got more exposure on ESPN than any game on ESPNU or ESPNews, and frankly it's not even close.

If you're going to FBS in an effort to get a September game televised on ABC, be prepared to wait a very long time.

My response to the three bolded points:

1) You missed my point LFN, even though I spelled it out - a P5 vs G5 matchup was shown on over-the-air, national TV. (In fact, two such matchups were shown on ABC on Saturday 9/19; the game you cited, Air Force/Michigan State, also fits in that category. Additionally, looking at ABC's schedule next week, it includes a Western Michigan/Ohio State contest.) Would a P5 vs FCS matchup ever be shown on over-the-air, national TV? Even if we switch from ABC to ESPN, there have been various P5/G5 matchups on ESPN or ESPN2, such as Penn State/Temple in Week 1, the first three weeks of the season. By contrast, to my knowledge P5 vs FCS matchups have not been shown on ESPN/ESPN2 so far this season. It is pretty obvious ESPN prefers showing P5/G5 games over P5/FCS or G5/FCS games if it has to choose between the options.

2) There's no doubt that ESPNU and ESPNews are lower-profile channels among ESPN's networks. However, I think many, if not most, cable subscribers, especially sports fans who often purchase sports packages, have both channels on their cable systems. Regardless of their exact availability, ESPNU focuses exclusively on college sports. If you are a college sports fan, you know where you can get your college sports fix. If you are a big college football fan, would ESPNU be a more visible channel, or would ESPNews be a more visible channel?

3) North Dakota State/Montana got exposure because ESPN throws Division I-AA/FCS a bone and is willing to televise one Division I-AA/FCS game prior to all other games. Of course, because the game was a week earlier, it also means a lot of football fans aren't even aware the game took place. Also, would NDSU/Montana have been shown on ESPN or ESPN2 had it been played a week later when most teams started their seasons? It is highly unlikely.

Look, I understand the FCS point of view on P5/FCS or G5/FCS matchups - it is an opportunity for an FCS team to step up in class, make a statement, and get a payday. If the FCS team pulls the upset, people remember the upset. If the FCS team keeps it close, they gain respect. If the FCS team gets blown out, they weren't expected to win, and they at least get a payday. There is no downside for FCS teams playing FBS teams. But from the FBS team point of view, the only real benefit is getting an extra home game. Essentially everything else is a downside, or at best a net zero. If the FBS team loses? Big to very big downside, depending on the FBS team involved. If a FBS team, especially a P5 team, barely wins? Big downside. If the FBS team wins solidly or by blowout? It's a net zero; they did what their fans expected them to do. Some of those same negatives exist for the top P5 teams playing G5 teams (but not for lower quality P5 teams playing G5 teams in most cases), but they aren't nearly as big as they are for top P5 teams playing FCS teams. People still make fun of Michigan for losing to Appalachian State, the eventual FCS national champion, in 2007; in fact one could argue Michigan still hasn't fully recovered from that loss. By contrast, to use one example, Oklahoma was not negatively impacted in the long-term by losing to Boise State in the Fiesta Bowl after the 2006 season.

As someone who roots for multiple Division I-AA/FCS teams, I can personally say I'd love to see Lehigh (or Lafayette, Penn, or Villanova) play a Division I-A/FBS team; that would provide great exposure to the program. But as someone who also roots a Division I-A/FBS team, I see the major downsides from the FBS point of view of playing FCS teams. I can understand why some FBS teams have chosen to not play FCS teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My response to the three bolded points:

1) You missed my point LFN, even though I spelled it out - a P5 vs G5 matchup was shown on over-the-air, national TV. (In fact, two such matchups were shown on ABC on Saturday 9/19; the game you cited, Air Force/Michigan State, also fits in that category. Additionally, looking at ABC's schedule next week, it includes a Western Michigan/Ohio State contest.) Would a P5 vs FCS matchup ever be shown on over-the-air, national TV? Even if we switch from ABC to ESPN, there have been various P5/G5 matchups on ESPN or ESPN2, such as Penn State/Temple in Week 1, the first three weeks of the season. By contrast, to my knowledge P5 vs FCS matchups have not been shown on ESPN/ESPN2 so far this season. It is pretty obvious ESPN prefers showing P5/G5 games over P5/FCS or G5/FCS games if it has to choose between the options.

The problem with your statement is that it's too general in regards to FBS, and it's confined to ABC. Notre Dame/Navy is technically a G5/P5 matchup, as was AFA/Michigan State, but the service academies are not "typical" G5 teams. Similarly, no network person in their right mind would want to televise Austin Peay/Missouri, but NDSU/Minnesota or Youngstown State/Nebraska? Those are different sorts of games. Point being the spectrum of G5 and FCS schools is so large that generalizing it as "P5 vs G5" seems too broad. Even P5 is a bit broad as a category. Would anyone network wish to televise Vandy/Idaho?

Also, Kansas State opened with NDSU last season on Fox Sports 1, not an insignificant statement to the draw of the Bison. It's not ESPN, but it is the Fox flagship for sports. Fox chose that game over other ho-hum openers involving FBS teams.

[Twentysix]

The problem with your statement is that it's too general in regards to FBS, and it's confined to ABC. Notre Dame/Navy is technically a G5/P5 matchup, as was AFA/Michigan State, but the service academies are not "typical" G5 teams. Similarly, no network person in their right mind would want to televise Austin Peay/Missouri, but NDSU/Minnesota or Youngstown State/Nebraska? Those are different sorts of games. Point being the spectrum of G5 and FCS schools is so large that generalizing it as "P5 vs G5" seems too broad. Even P5 is a bit broad as a category. Would anyone network wish to televise Vandy/Idaho?

Also, Kansas State opened with NDSU last season on Fox Sports 1, not an insignificant statement to the draw of the Bison. It's not ESPN, but it is the Fox flagship for sports. Fox chose that game over other ho-hum openers involving FBS teams.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvobbZlGCI

Favorite drive ever.

[CHIP72]

The problem with your statement is that it's too general in regards to FBS, and it's confined to ABC. Notre Dame/Navy is technically a G5/P5 matchup, as was AFA/Michigan State, but the service academies are not "typical" G5 teams. Similarly, no network person in their right mind would want to televise Austin Peay/Missouri, but NDSU/Minnesota or Youngstown State/Nebraska? Those are different sorts of games. Point being the spectrum of G5 and FCS schools is so large that generalizing it as "P5 vs G5" seems too broad. Even P5 is a bit broad as a category. Would anyone network wish to televise Vandy/Idaho?

Also, Kansas State opened with NDSU last season on Fox Sports 1, not an insignificant statement to the draw of the Bison. It's not ESPN, but it is the Fox flagship for sports. Fox chose that game over other ho-hum openers involving FBS teams.

LFN, two thoughts:

1) If ESPN wanted to televise games like North Dakota State/Minnesota or Youngstown State/Nebraska over other games on ABC, ESPN, or ESPN2, they would have already done so, and it wouldn't be a one-off thing either. They haven't because they don't want to.

2) Fox Sports 1 is nowhere near as visible as ESPN or ESPN2 in most sports fans' minds. The same is true with the CBS Sports Network and to a lesser degree the NBC Sports Network (aka VS.). It really isn't a valid comparison. Additionally, Fox only televises Big 12 and Pac-12 home games, so the number of games they have to choose from is a lot smaller. Finally, I found the Fox networks' TV schedule from Week 1 last year - yes, North Dakota State/Iowa State was televised on FS1. (NDSU/Kansas State was played in 2013; I'm guessing you meant NDSU/ISU.) On the other hand, Fresno State/Southern California - a G5 vs P5 matchup - was televised on Fox (over-the-air) the same day.

I'm not trying to suggest that TV networks treat all P5 teams (or for that matter G5 teams) equally in terms of how prominently they want to feature those teams. I am trying to suggest that TV networks show a clear preference for P5/G5 matchups over P5/FCS matchups when given the opportunity to choose between the two options. Looking at TV networks' televised game decisions, I really don't think categorizing "P5 vs G5" and "P5 vs FCS" is too broad a comparison because that's the comparison the networks themselves appear to be making.

[clenz]

Yeah playing on FS1 is a waste.

It's only in 92 million homes.

What a joke of a station

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, two thoughts:

1) If ESPN wanted to televise games like North Dakota State/Minnesota or Youngstown State/Nebraska over other games on ABC, ESPN, or ESPN2, they would have already done so, and it wouldn't be a one-off thing either. They haven't because they don't want to.

2) Fox Sports 1 is nowhere near as visible as ESPN or ESPN2 in most sports fans' minds. The same is true with the CBS Sports Network and to a lesser degree the NBC Sports Network (aka VS.). It really isn't a valid comparison. Additionally, Fox only televises Big 12 and Pac-12 home games, so the number of games they have to choose from is a lot smaller. Finally, I found the Fox networks' TV schedule from Week 1 last year - yes, North Dakota State/Iowa State was televised on FS1. (NDSU/Kansas State was played in 2013; I'm guessing you meant NDSU/ISU.) On the other hand, Fresno State/Southern California - a G5 vs P5 matchup - was televised on Fox (over-the-air) the same day.

I'm not trying to suggest that TV networks treat all P5 teams (or for that matter G5 teams) equally in terms of how prominently they want to feature those teams. I am trying to suggest that TV networks show a clear preference for P5/G5 matchups over P5/FCS matchups when given the opportunity to choose between the two options. Looking at TV networks' televised game decisions, I really don't think categorizing "P5 vs G5" and "P5 vs FCS" is too broad a comparison because that's the comparison the networks themselves appear to be making.

I think the network guys look into it further than that. If Nebraska hosted Youngstown State, that's a story because of Bo Pelini. NDSU has a history of being great in FCS, and also have a history of early upsets, so they would get consideration. They wouldn't say, "Georgia State is FBS so Alabama/Georgia State should be our early game of the week over NDSU/Minnesota". I think they take the G5 and FCS schools the same way and look at the individual matchups, ex. "Army/Navy/AFA are national and are a big deal, people will watch that," or "Boise State has a rep as a giant killer, I think people will tune in to see them play Washington" (and indeed people did). What I don't think they say is, "Idaho is travelling to Indiana and that's a G5/P5 matchup, so that's better than televising Youngstown State/Ohio State".

There are about six disparate G5 schools that probably get good consideration for national TV over the rest of the G5 thanks to their fanbases. They are: Army, Navy, AFA, Boise State, BYU, and let's throw NIU in there as a BCS qualifier in past years (though they are way tinier than the other five). Who are the other G5 schools getting national consideration? Temple? UConn? Fresno State?

Penn State/Temple might have been a thing on the East Coast, same with a hypothetical UConn/BC game or a USC/Fresno State game out west. Not to say they're bad games, or they shouldn't be congratulated for getting those games, but let's not make it out to be that these are big draws because of Fresno State. They are big draws because there are a lot of USC fans (and anti-fans). And Fresno State gets the national game because the game might be competitive. NDSU is competitive, too. That's why they're a draw, not because they are FCS.

[Pinnum]

The MAC and the Sunbelt should come together and declare that all their members may only schedule home/home agreements (with buyout penalties) and that only FCS teams may be scheduled as part of a single game agreement.

This will drastically cut the power the P5s have as they will either have to resume scheduling FCS teams, only play other P5s (drastically cutting their TV inventory), or they will have to accept G5 teams as peers.

Once G5s get more home games against P5 teams (which is starting to happen a little more anyways) there will be a lot more success of G5 teams and those schools will be able to build football cultures that will help them compete against the P5s.

It is a very real possibility that these competitive games, from this past weekend, would see different outcomes if they were at the G5 school's home field rather than at the P5.


Kent State 7 - Minnesota 10
UConn 6 - #22 Missouri 9
Central Michigan 27 - Syracuse 30 (OT)
LA Tech 33 0 Kansas State 39 (3OT)
Northern Illinois 13 - #1 Ohio State 20
Western Kentucky 35 - Indiana 38
Colorado State 24 - Colorado 27 (OT)

If just two or three of these games changed results during the first few weeks of the season, the complexion of FBS football would change in just a few years leading to much more parity and a lot more exciting football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The MAC and the Sunbelt should come together and declare that all their members may only schedule home/home agreements (with buyout penalties) and that only FCS teams may be scheduled as part of a single game agreement.

The second they try to pull this stunt Delany will welcome back the FCS and games with the Missouri Valley with open arms. For the P5 schools., the economic argument for scheduling FCS games would become doubly as compelling, and it's already pretty compelling.

[Pinnum]

The second they try to pull this stunt Delany will welcome back the FCS and games with the Missouri Valley with open arms. For the P5 schools., the economic argument for scheduling FCS games would become doubly as compelling, and it's already pretty compelling.

Which would be great to watch them try to spin it after they lobbied against it. The G5s would be no worse off.

Do you think the fans and media would let them get away with it without being called out on it?

[WileECoyote06]

Which would be great to watch them try to spin it after they lobbied against it. The G5s would be no worse off.

Do you think the fans and media would let them get away with it without being called out on it?

Fans probably don't factor highly into a decision like that. Fans forget things much too quickly and move on to the next controversy.

[Pinnum]

Fans probably don't factor highly into a decision like that. Fans forget things much too quickly and move on to the next controversy.

I guess I was thinking more about the key stakeholders... as in the donors and the fans base that would actually have strategy communicated to them by the Athletic Director. After the AD (Coach, Commissioner, etc) have been selling a vision of playing against only the highest level and saying how it is vital to the game day experience and ensuring inclusion into the playoffs, it would be interesting to see how welcoming they would be to the idea that the team needs to start hosting FCS teams.

Honestly, I don't think it would go over as well as some seem to think...

[WileECoyote06]

I guess I was thinking more about the key stakeholders... as in the donors and the fans base that would actually have strategy communicated to them by the Athletic Director. After the AD (Coach, Commissioner, etc) have been selling a vision of playing against only the highest level and saying how it is vital to the game day experience and ensuring inclusion into the playoffs, it would be interesting to see how welcoming they would be to the idea that the team needs to start hosting FCS teams.

Honestly, I don't think it would go over as well as some seem to think...

Oh yeah . donors. CHECK. I agree.

[Sitting Bull]

Which would be great to watch them try to spin it after they lobbied against it. The G5s would be no worse off.

Do you think the fans and media would let them get away with it without being called out on it?

No worse off?

With the overall state of things the G5s need a WHOLE lot more money than FCS going forward. Now you plop COA on top of everything else - many of these G5 have placed bets on a wing and a prayer. There are only so many games ESPN will televise on weeknights.

[Pinnum]

No worse off?

With the overall state of things the G5s need a WHOLE lot more money than FCS going forward. Now you plop COA on top of everything else - many of these G5 have placed bets on a wing and a prayer. There are only so many games ESPN will televise on weeknights.

No worse off than not taking the action and allowing it to run it's course anyways.

The landscape is changing and becoming more expensive so if the G5 attempt to use their leverage in negotiations and fail, they will be no worse off than if they had not attempted.

[bonarae]

Face it, in the real split between the powers and all others, most of G5 is a sham. Like the Pioneer League in FCS, they really aren't in the hunt for a championship. They are there as you have used the word several times - for perception. I like reality better.

And I think it stinks for college football that you have to discount old rivalries - like Temple/Villanova - for ridiculous matchups with Idaho - or pick your G5 team - for perception purposes, just because a team is pretending to be in the same pool with Alabama.

Eventually I think this masquerade, and that's what it is, will be restructured. It is going to eventually break the backs, like UAB, of some of these schools. UMass is now in year 4 of this charade. They drew 10,000 fans into Gilette for the Temple game yesterday, less than what they used to average in the CAA. How much money are they wasting in this effort- and has it really raised their university profile? It can't go on like that forever.

First bolded statement: I agree that G5 is a "second rate, trying hard" collective of colleges that try to become P5 killers at best. I agree with the PFL should not be there statement as well, but what if the Ivies and HBCU's join the party, will that balance the playoffs? xchinscratchx

Second bolded statement: The Ivies have always had been doing this to their PL/other scholly rivals in the past few seasons or so to play those PFL teams, "ducking" is the right word for this. But in the next few years, we may have to play down now (I am saying this, especially that Chicago may not find a conference affiliation anymore after they leave the SAA after the 2016 season.)

Restructuring? I think it should happen in the end, but when?


Which is exactly why I prefer FCS football--FBS is just seedy, insular, semi-pro football that's becoming as boring as the seedy, insular NFL...whatever...

I agree with this, but I also enjoy D-III too. Most of the NFL players at present are FBS alumni.


Quite frankly, you aren't looking at the whole picture (i.e. both the FCS team and G5 team perspectives), and no, Temple's record against FCS teams (most of which is against Villanova, usually a much better than average FCS team) isn't the reason for my comments. The reality is G5 programs, especially those that have played in Division I-A/FBS for many years, are much more visible than Division I-AA/FCS teams, and even if those G5 teams are currently poor/bad, wins over those teams are perceived more positively and losses to those teams are perceived much less negatively than wins and losses against Division I-AA/FCS teams. I mean, look at last week - Auburn nearly lost to Jacksonville State, and Arkansas did lose to Toledo. Which SEC team got dinged more for their performance? It was the SEC team that nearly lost to a top 5 FCS team, not the SEC team that actually lost to a good MAC team. Toledo and Jacksonville State probably aren't all that different in quality right now, so if fans were basing it on opponent quality, Arkansas would have been more scrutinized.

I can give you another example - Temple was bad in 2013 (2-10 final record) and lost to both Fordham (home) and Idaho (road). Fordham was a Division I-AA/FCS playoff team in 2013, while Idaho won one game (the one against Temple) in 2013 and I think lost 8 games by at least 16 points. By any objective standard, Fordham was almost definitely better than Idaho in 2013. But which loss upset Temple fans more, and to this day which loss do most Temple fans perceive as being the worse loss? It was/is the Fordham loss. Poor/bad G5 or lower level Division I-A/FBS teams are perceived as being better than all or most Division I-AA/FCS teams, including many playoff games. That perception discrepancy is one of the major reasons why many Division I-AA/FCS programs are moving up to Division I-A/FBS, even though they are going from being strong Division I-AA/FCS teams to weak Division I-A/FBS teams.

From the general college football, non-FCS fan perspective, good FCS teams are similar to the tallest dwarfs - it doesn't matter that they are tall among the dwarf population, they are still dwarfs and still shorter than regular people (i.e. FBS teams). It is only on places like this site where fans care about the distinctions among Division I-AA/FCS teams. Most fans don't care about that.

I think you got the point somehow. Many FBS fans (the majority of college football's fanbase) don't know about the FCS and other divisions until they have relatives or friends who play for the latter group... or their alma mater (if they have one) will have a football team...

[CHIP72]

Yeah playing on FS1 is a waste.

It's only in 92 million homes.

What a joke of a station

In all seriousness - how many fans, especially those outside of Big 12 or Pac-12 areas, are aware/remember games are televised on Fox Sports 1? I can honestly say I tend to forget FS1 televises college football games, something that definitely isn't true with the ESPN networks or even the CBS Sports Network or the NBC Sports Network. IMO, FS1 is still a new enough channel that its presence hasn't fully locked itself in a lot of people's minds yet.

[parr90]

Boise State is not going to the playoffs. Not gonna happen, at least as long as the playoff is limited to 4 teams and there are 5 power conferences.

I agree that Ohio State plays in a weak conference. Their SOS isn't going to get much of a boost by playing weak G5 teams over solid FCS teams though. They didn't get in last year because they played Kent State instead of North Dakota State or Northern Iowa. They got in because they won a conference championship on the field, the number one criterion listed by the Selection Committee.

Probably not but if they were to play this year say Georgia, and they have played them OOC before, and maybe a Fla St, and win both of those games, plus win their schedule out right, then I would say they had a chance at going to the 4 team playoff. They would have to beat a couple top 10 teams and go undefeated, but its possible. They have done a good job in the past of scheduling OOC big time games and winning. To me thats the only way a G5 team can ever have a chance to go to the playoff is to schedule a couple top teams OOC and go undefeated in that same season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Probably not but if they were to play this year say Georgia, and they have played them OOC before, and maybe a Fla St, and win both of those games, plus win their schedule out right, then I would say they had a chance at going to the 4 team playoff. They would have to beat a couple top 10 teams and go undefeated, but its possible. They have done a good job in the past of scheduling OOC big time games and winning. To me thats the only way a G5 team can ever have a chance to go to the playoff is to schedule a couple top teams OOC and go undefeated in that same season.

It is theoretically possible but it would require so much to go right:

* In your example, Florida State and Georgia going on to become bowl-eligible
* Notre Dame going 8-3 or worse
* Big 10, Big XII, SEC, Pac-12, ACC's championship runners-up have 3 losses or more
* Other Conference members with a 3 or more wins against bowl-eligible P5 teams

That AND going undefeated, and *perhaps* they're in the conversation. Personally I think it virtually impossible.

[Catatonic]

It is theoretically possible but it would require so much to go right:

* In your example, Florida State and Georgia going on to become bowl-eligible
* Notre Dame going 8-3 or worse
* Big 10, Big XII, SEC, Pac-12, ACC's championship runners-up have 3 losses or more
* Other Conference members with a 3 or more wins against bowl-eligible P5 teams

That AND going undefeated, and *perhaps* they're in the conversation. Personally I think it virtually impossible.

I could not agree more.

[Danielr11220]

Of course they do. Other than Notre Dame and USC, I think every I-A team has at some point.

However, TCU had the advantage of being willing to schedule up when they were in the MWC, and that's the reputation Houston wants to portray.


UCLA is the third

[Sitting Bull]

Wow, this whole thread got a lot of action.

But all else aside - it's about HOUSTON lets not forget. Who really cares?

How many FCS schools out there are really saying "Gee, let's see if we can schedule Houston!!".

You can get a better check and experience playing at virtually any other FBS team - not to mention up to likely 20 or more in FCS.

Screw them.

[EKUCOLONEL12]

I fear other G5 schools and conferences will soon follow suit. This is why I wish my teams, EKU and Liberty, would get out of FCS before it is to late.

Shorter Un @ SEMOJackvill St @ UT Marty
Tenn St @ Florida A&M
Austin Peay @ EKU
Tenn Tech @ Murray

[EKUCOLONEL12]

I fear other G5 schools and conferences will soon follow suit. This is why I wish my teams, EKU and Liberty, would get out of FCS before it is to late.

Not sure how to edit a post but those predictions were not supposed to be in this post.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I fear other G5 schools and conferences will soon follow suit. This is why I wish my teams, EKU and Liberty, would get out of FCS before it is to late.

Shorter Un @ SEMOJackvill St @ UT Marty
Tenn St @ Florida A&M
Austin Peay @ EKU
Tenn Tech @ Murray


EKU wants out, has a plausible plan to meet the NCAA minimums and has a stadium that can probably accommodate it, but supposedly the Sun Belt really wanted a school without an FBS-compliant stadium and without a proven fanbase to meet that requirement.

Liberty wants out but people are afraid that they might be too successful, and there's an idiotic rule that states that you need a conference invite to become an FBS school, and no G5 conference wants to invite a school that would instantly be the biggest spender in the conference. So they're stuck in FCS until someone amends the ridiculous rule.

[EKUCOLONEL12]

EKU wants out, has a plausible plan to meet the NCAA minimums and has a stadium that can probably accommodate it, but supposedly the Sun Belt really wanted a school without an FBS-compliant stadium and without a proven fanbase to meet that requirement.

Liberty wants out but people are afraid that they might be too successful, and there's an idiotic rule that states that you need a conference invite to become an FBS school, and no G5 conference wants to invite a school that would instantly be the biggest spender in the conference. So they're stuck in FBS until someone amends the ridiculous rule.
Couldn't agree more. I'm not saying EKU is FBS ready right now like I think LU is, but we are closer than CCU and are better than Georgia State.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Pinnum]

Liberty wants out but people are afraid that they might be too successful, and there's an idiotic rule that states that you need a conference invite to become an FBS school, and no G5 conference wants to invite a school that would instantly be the biggest spender in the conference. So they're stuck in FCS until someone amends the ridiculous rule.

Liberty is to Evangelical Christians as Notre Dame is to Catholics and BYU is to Mormons... Interesting that two of those schools are very successful FBS independents that operate their programs without a conference...

[clenz]

Liberty is to Evangelical Christians as Notre Dame is to Catholics and BYU is to Mormons... Interesting that two of those schools are very successful FBS independents that operate their programs without a conference...
Both have been around significantly longer. BYU is independent because they thought they were Notre Dame and learned they weren't. They can't find a conference to put up with their **** so they remain indy.

That's why Liberty isn't getting a home. It has nothing to do with fear. It has everything to do with the fact they were founded by a member of the fringe/extreme Christian right.

[parr90]

It is theoretically possible but it would require so much to go right:

* In your example, Florida State and Georgia going on to become bowl-eligible
* Notre Dame going 8-3 or worse
* Big 10, Big XII, SEC, Pac-12, ACC's championship runners-up have 3 losses or more
* Other Conference members with a 3 or more wins against bowl-eligible P5 teams

That AND going undefeated, and *perhaps* they're in the conversation. Personally I think it virtually impossible.


Impossible is a little strong IMO. Unlikely yes. If Boise were to go undefeated beating say a top 10 Georgia, and a top 10 TCU I think they would be very much considered. If Georgia and TCU were top 10 at the end of the season that would probably mean that they only had 1 loss a piece if any losses at all, so not only would Boise have beatn everyone in their own conf but also beatn 2 teams in the top 10 that were considered to be elite teams. Unlikely yes, impossible no.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Liberty is to Evangelical Christians as Notre Dame is to Catholics and BYU is to Mormons... Interesting that two of those schools are very successful FBS independents that operate their programs without a conference...

The reason for that is basically an accident of history:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/fbs-problems-with-mixing-religion-and.html

Notre Dame underwent their transformation into independent college football powerhouse in the 1950s, and when the D-I/D-II split happened there was no question they were going to be in D-I, and later, FBS. BYU were very fortunate to be hooked up with the WAC at the time of the split just as their football program was making the transition to become a big-time D-I powerhouse (including a paper championship).

My argument is that there would be no path for a Notre Dame or BYU today had they been established after 1977 (as Liberty was). They would have started perhaps in D-III, then followed the rules to become Division I, and gone through the fifteen year transition period in between "moves". Once in D-I, they'd need to get an invite in order to be an FBS school. And they'd have both largely run into the exact same problems Liberty has faced.

[Pinnum]

The reason for that is basically an accident of history:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/fbs-problems-with-mixing-religion-and.html

Notre Dame underwent their transformation into independent college football powerhouse in the 1950s, and when the D-I/D-II split happened there was no question they were going to be in D-I, and later, FBS. BYU were very fortunate to be hooked up with the WAC at the time of the split just as their football program was making the transition to become a big-time D-I powerhouse (including a paper championship).

My argument is that there would be no path for a Notre Dame or BYU today had they been established after 1977 (as Liberty was). They would have started perhaps in D-III, then followed the rules to become Division I, and gone through the fifteen year transition period in between "moves". Once in D-I, they'd need to get an invite in order to be an FBS school. And they'd have both largely run into the exact same problems Liberty has faced.


I am not disputing that; just making an observation.