Dana Holgorsen: Time for FBS programs to stop playing FCS teams

[Mr. C]

And now for the dumb news of the day from West Virginia's Dana Holgorsen.

No more scheduling FCS opponents. That's the message that West Virginia (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/277/west-virginia-mountaineers) coach Dana Holgorsen is sending to his fellow FBS programs.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/dana-holgorsen-time-fbs-programs-stop-playing-fcs/story?id=33624913

Maybe too many of our FCS brothers beat up on Holgorsen's FBS teams this weekend. Ironically, Holgorsen's predecessor at WVU, Bill Stewart, coached in the FCS ranks at VMI, so Stewart was a little more clued in to things.

[BisonBacker]

I don't blame him or the Big Ten for saying they don't want these games on the schedules anymore. If I was a fan of that school I wouldn't be in favor of it. No more than I would be in favor of an FCS scheduling a DII because that's how the FBS schools see us. I used to be against the idea of NDSU moving up to the FBS. I'm now of the opinion that we either **** or get off the pot. Schools like App, Go. Southern and others have seen the writing on the wall. Schools like NDSU, Montana and others at the top of the FCS pile are kidding themselves the longer we stay here. It's just a matter of time. When the split happens I hope NDSU is on the right side of it. The big payday games against FBS teams are going to go away. Time to move on.

[Professor Chaos]

I don't blame him or the Big Ten for saying they don't want these games on the schedules anymore. If I was a fan of that school I wouldn't be in favor of it. No more than I would be in favor of an FCS scheduling a DII because that's how the FBS schools see us. I used to be against the idea of NDSU moving up to the FBS. I'm now of the opinion that we either **** or get off the pot. Schools like App, Go. Southern and others have seen the writing on the wall. Schools like NDSU, Montana and others at the top of the FCS pile are kidding themselves the longer we stay here. It's just a matter of time. When the split happens I hope NDSU is on the right side of it. The big payday games against FBS teams are going to go away. Time to move on.
I agree and disagree. I don't like to see NDSU schedule D2s because the playoff selection committee still has that D1 wins stipulation. FBS teams have no such stipulation except for the strength of schedule argument, in fact they get to count one FCS win per year towards bowl eligibility. The strength of schedule argument doesn't hold water for me either. Similar to how I'd recognize that UM-Duluth would probably be a better opponent than Incarnate Word I'd bet a good number of FBS fans would recognize that a good local FCS team would be better than a G5 bottom feeder from the other side of the country. I'd guarantee the majority of Minnesota fans would recognize that NDSU would be a tougher game than New Mexico and there would be more interest in that game accordingly given the proximity and quality of the lower level opponent same as it would be for NDSU vs UM-Duluth instead of NDSU vs Incarnate Word.

Having said all that, there's still the "nothing to gain and everything to lose" argument by scheduling a good lower level team but if you're not a good enough FBS team to beat any FCS team or if you're not a good enough FCS team to beat any D2 team you don't belong in the playoffs of either subdivision (with a rare exception like SHSU last year).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dana Holgorsen must have a great frequent-flyer program, because if he wants to play two P5 schools he's going to a 5 home game schedule, most likely, with any extra OOC being played on the road halfway across the country. He will also eliminate his school's chance at the CFP by late September.

That's on top of his frequent-flyer-filled Big XII conference schedule with multiple flights to Texas every year.

[walliver]

Considering the way WVU manhandled the reigning SunBelt champions, I wonder if WVU should stop playing G5 games.

[Cocky]

He better be careful or all of the cream puff Sun Belt teams may have a full schedule before he calls.

[KPSUL]

Short summary, not a whole lot of detail in the article. I assume he is talking about P5 vs FCS. I certainly don't think that the NCAA, or any conference should dictate which teams FBS schools play OOC. There are some long standing series that I'd hate to see ended. Also, as has been thoroughly discussed on AGS, many of the G5 teams, and on occaision a few P5, are good competitive match-ups for FCS teams.

I see the problem with the FCS teams. When scheduling FBS opponents, some athletic departments need to try to be more realistic about the anticipated capabilities of their teams. While the rare App. St over Michigan, or JMU over VT are thrilling games for FCS fans, they happen infrequently, like once very 3 or 4 years. The intervening 199 games scheduled between FCS and upper echelon P5 tend to be blowout wins for the P5. I respect some of the top P5 programs like USC, Ohio S , Notre Dame for choosing not to play FCS teams. How do we look at a strong FCS teams scheduling weaker Div 2 programs? I was disappointed to see Montana State playing an opening game against a Div 2 program that was 7 and 25 over the past 3 years.

[BisonBacker]

I agree and disagree. I don't like to see NDSU schedule D2s because the playoff selection committee still has that D1 wins stipulation. FBS teams have no such stipulation except for the strength of schedule argument, in fact they get to count one FCS win per year towards bowl eligibility. The strength of schedule argument doesn't hold water for me either. Similar to how I'd recognize that UM-Duluth would probably be a better opponent than Incarnate Word I'd bet a good number of FBS fans would recognize that a good local FCS team would be better than a G5 team from across the country. I'd guarantee the majority of Minnesota fans would recognize that NDSU would be a tougher game than New Mexico and there would be more interest in the game accordingly.

Having said all that, there's still the "nothing to gain and everything to lose" argument by scheduling a good lower level team but if you're not a good enough FBS team to beat any FCS team or if you're not a good enough FCS team to beat any D2 team you don't belong in the playoffs of either subdivision (with a rare exception like SHSU last year).

I don't disagree with that however my exception to your comment is this. For the very few top level FCS schools there are in my opinion a larger number of FCS in name only schools who play at this level in name only. I think NDSU is a step below where they should be. I'd rather see NDSU continue to grow its brand as opposed to keeping the status quo mentality. You are either moving forward or you are moving backward. I think in time it will work itself out and a split will occur.

[DoWe]

Considering the way WVU manhandled the reigning SunBelt champions, I wonder if WVU should stop playing G5 games.
I am still scratching my head about the article's second sentence.

West Virginia (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/west-virginia.htm) opens the season against Liberty (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2335/liberty-flames) on Saturday, and will do the same against Youngstown State (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2754/youngstown-state-penguins) next year. After that, however, there are no future games planned against FCS opponents.

[Bisonator]

I don't blame him or the Big Ten for saying they don't want these games on the schedules anymore. If I was a fan of that school I wouldn't be in favor of it. No more than I would be in favor of an FCS scheduling a DII because that's how the FBS schools see us. I used to be against the idea of NDSU moving up to the FBS. I'm now of the opinion that we either **** or get off the pot. Schools like App, Go. Southern and others have seen the writing on the wall. Schools like NDSU, Montana and others at the top of the FCS pile are kidding themselves the longer we stay here. It's just a matter of time. When the split happens I hope NDSU is on the right side of it. The big payday games against FBS teams are going to go away. Time to move on.

I'm leaning more and more into this camp as well. Especially hearing all the FCS schools whining about FCOA.

[Mr. C]

I am still scratching my head about the article's second sentence.

West Virginia (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/west-virginia.htm) opens the season against Liberty (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2335/liberty-flames) on Saturday, and will do the same against Youngstown State (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2754/youngstown-state-penguins) next year. After that, however, there are no future games planned against FCS opponents.

Holgorsen needs to be careful with Liberty, which beat Appalachian State just last year in overtime. And Youngstown State held its own with Pittsburgh on Saturday. Liberty is capable of putting up a lot of points on good teams.

[Mr. C]

Dana Holgorsen must have a great frequent-flyer program, because if he wants to play two P5 schools he's going to a 5 home game schedule, most likely, with any extra OOC being played on the road halfway across the country. He will also eliminate his school's chance at the CFP by late September.

That's on top of his frequent-flyer-filled Big XII conference schedule with multiple flights to Texas every year.
The main reason we see so many of these FCS vs FBS matchups is that teams from the FBS want to get six, or seven home games on their schedules and you can't do that for all 120-plus FBS schools without scheduling FCS games.

[BisonFan02]

The main reason we see so many of these FCS vs FBS matchups is that teams from the FBS want to get six, or seven home games on their schedules and you can't do that for all 120-plus FBS schools without scheduling FCS games.

....add to that the fact that 1 FCS win counts towards bowl eligibility.

[Pinnum]

This is likely to backfire on the P5 schools.

The rules require a minimum number of home games and given the finite number of teams, it will make scheduling much more difficult. With the scarcity of available FBS teams to schedule, the price of scheduling a game with drastically shoot up. Additionally, look at recent schedules and you'll see there are more instances of Home/Home agreements in which BCS conference schools are going on the road against non-BCS schools (see below).

The G5s have the leverage because they will be able to schedule FCS or FBS giving them more options to fill their dates. This will help to create football atmospheres on G5 campuses as they schedule more and more Home/Home agreements with P5 schools. This will help them to recruit and help raise revenue which can help with retaining coaching staffs and may lead to more MAC/Sunbelt type teams being able to build programs that are sustainable rather than being decimated when their 10 win program has everyone poached away.

Additionally, with closed scheduling, you won't see many issues with G5 teams not getting quality games that prevent them from getting access to top bowls or even the playoffs. Boise State (and Utah when they were talking of suing) spent many years being black balled where no one would schedule them because they were too good but lacked the cashe. That is going to be very hard to do any longer since every team in their conference since teams will need games. Additionally, G5 teams will be helped by the new (semi) closed systems. Currently, games with the likes of Eastern Washington and North Dakota State's of the world are considered outside entities that only count as a win towards bowl eligibility. By having less of the FCS games, there will create a closed loop in the ranking systems which will make for better rankings since there will be a lot more FBS vs FBS meetings. This will help the G5 teams (at the expense of the bottom half of the P5).

The only thing I can think is that the Big Ten's of the world have done the analysis and realize that attendance at home games is down and that their television revenue is the lifeblood that they need to maintain. By going on the road more, they create scarcity for their home games and drive up demand for when they do compete at home. Additionally, with less home games, they will have more fans tuning in to watch their game on TV which will drive viewership and help their TV revenue.


The P5 teams going to G5 stadiums this season (and this is before the P5 have cut back on the FCS games):

Duke at Tulane
Miami at Florida Atlantic
Miami at Cincinnati
NC State at Old Dominion
NC State at South Alabama
Pittsburgh at Akron
Syracuse at South Florida
Virginia Tech at East Carolina
Wake Forrest at Army
Baylor at SMU
Iowa State at Toledo
Kansas State at UT-San Antonio
Oklahoma State at Central Michigan
Michigan State at Western Michigan
Minnesota at Colorado State
Penn State at Temple
Purdue at Marshall
Rutgers at Army
Arizona at Nevada
Colorado at Hawaii
UCLA at UNLV
Utah at Fresno State
Washington at Boise State
Mississippi State at Southern Miss
Missouri at Arkansas State
Ole Miss at Memphis
Vanderbilt at Middle Tennessee
Vanderbilt at Houston

[Bisonoline]

I don't disagree with that however my exception to your comment is this. For the very few top level FCS schools there are in my opinion a larger number of FCS in name only schools who play at this level in name only. I think NDSU is a step below where they should be. I'd rather see NDSU continue to grow its brand as opposed to keeping the status quo mentality. You are either moving forward or you are moving backward. I think in time it will work itself out and a split will occur.

I have never liked scheduling tomato cans. It really doesn't help the team and the fans get shafted in seeing a ****ty game. Now the big conferences are going back to the way they used to schedule a long time ago. I have no issues with that.

As far as the "if you aren't moving forward your moving backward" I can see that to a certain extent because our program is on a different level than many in the FCS. But one has to know what we are and what we aren't.

[344Johnson]

I am still scratching my head about the article's second sentence.

West Virginia (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/west-virginia.htm) opens the season against Liberty (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2335/liberty-flames) on Saturday, and will do the same against Youngstown State (http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/2754/youngstown-state-penguins) next year. After that, however, there are no future games planned against FCS opponents.


Games were scheduled before he became the coach.

[BisonBacker]

I have never liked scheduling tomato cans. It really doesn't help the team and the fans get shafted in seeing a ****ty game. Now the big conferences are going back to the way they used to schedule a long time ago. I have no issues with that.

As far as the "if you aren't moving forward your moving backward" I can see that to a certain extent because our program is on a different level than many in the FCS. But one has to know what we are and what we aren't.
Similarly one has to explore the boundaries and as far as what you are and what you aren't can be taken two ways. What you are and what you can be? Fear to take the next step can be viewed as fear to grow to be what you can be. No risk no reward same as when we make the 3+ decade move up to late to FCS. Where would we be now had we moved up when we should have? Fair questions to ask from both viewpoints. I'm more in the camp that NDSU is unlike many in the FCS that we have much more room to grow than most others. That is why to me the move up is the logical step.

[BisonBacker]

Our biggest problem is in Bismarck with the politicians who are not fans of NDSU due to their alliances with another school. They'd do anything to keep NDSU down. Outsiders don't see it but it's there and it's real.

[DoWe]

Games were scheduled before he became the coach.
I guess I am old fashioned but I consider the shellacking they put on GaSou their season opener. It was also their home opener, imo. How many times can one team open their season?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only thing I can think is that the Big Ten's of the world have done the analysis and realize that attendance at home games is down and that their television revenue is the lifeblood that they need to maintain. By going on the road more, they create scarcity for their home games and drive up demand for when they do compete at home. Additionally, with less home games, they will have more fans tuning in to watch their game on TV which will drive viewership and help their TV revenue.

If they have done this and then attempted to market the decision as being "fan-friendly" marquee matchups for home games, that's laughingly cynical and a pack of lies in addition to that. Not that I would put it past them, but it's actually not only taking a dump on the fans but also playing them for fools on top of that.

[DoWe]

Our biggest problem is in Bismarck with the politicians who are not fans of NDSU due to their alliances with another school. They'd do anything to keep NDSU down. Outsiders don't see it but it's there and it's real.
Not buying the political conspiracy thing. There are plenty of stepchild state universities that have made the move. Look at the Sun Belt.

[BisonFan02]

Not buying the political conspiracy thing. There are plenty of stepchild state universities that have made the move. Look at the Sun Belt.

I'm not going as far as BisonBacker is taking it, but there is a VERY weird dynamic with state schools in ND....starting with the sheer number of them. UND also has the law school (which is where some of the govt bias theories come from) and the lion's share of the local journalists also have UND ties. The problem with the "Bismarck" problem is it is entirely BS xlolx. If you actually look into the background of the state reps, very few of them have any sort of law background or ties the UND.

[Grizalltheway]

I don't blame him or the Big Ten for saying they don't want these games on the schedules anymore. If I was a fan of that school I wouldn't be in favor of it. No more than I would be in favor of an FCS scheduling a DII because that's how the FBS schools see us. I used to be against the idea of NDSU moving up to the FBS. I'm now of the opinion that we either **** or get off the pot. Schools like App, Go. Southern and others have seen the writing on the wall. Schools like NDSU, Montana and others at the top of the FCS pile are kidding themselves the longer we stay here. It's just a matter of time. When the split happens I hope NDSU is on the right side of it. The big payday games against FBS teams are going to go away. Time to move on.

I don't intend this as smack, but does the Fargo Dome even meet the minimum capacity requirement for FBS? Probably want to have some sort of plan in place for that before getting all antsy to make the jump.

[BisonFan02]

I don't intend this as smack, but does the Fargo Dome even meet the minimum capacity requirement for FBS? Probably want to have some sort of plan in place for that before getting all antsy to make the jump.

See Coastal Carolina. There also isn't a minimum capacity requirement...just an average attendance of 15k per game.

[Grizalltheway]

See Coastal Carolina. There also isn't a minimum capacity requirement...just an average attendance of 15k per game.

Gotcha, thought the minimum was higher for some reason.

[Daytripper]

I'm not going as far as BisonBacker is taking it, but there is a VERY weird dynamic with state schools in ND....starting with the sheer number of them. UND also has the law school (which is where some of the govt bias theories come from) and the lion's share of the local journalists also have UND ties. The problem with the "Bismarck" problem is it is entirely BS xlolx. If you actually look into the background of the state reps, very few of them have any sort of law background or ties the UND.


For those that don't believe there can be bitter intrastate battles between universities on the political level, I shall refer you to the recent UAB fiasco.

[IBleedYellow]

I don't intend this as smack, but does the Fargo Dome even meet the minimum capacity requirement for FBS? Probably want to have some sort of plan in place for that before getting all antsy to make the jump.

The minimum requirement is 15,000 over a 3 year period for attendance.

[BisonFan02]

Gotcha, thought the minimum was higher for some reason.

Yup....I present to you....The Kibbie Dome

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbie_Dome

xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This is likely to backfire on the P5 schools.

The rules require a minimum number of home games and given the finite number of teams, it will make scheduling much more difficult. With the scarcity of available FBS teams to schedule, the price of scheduling a game with drastically shoot up. Additionally, look at recent schedules and you'll see there are more instances of Home/Home agreements in which BCS conference schools are going on the road against non-BCS schools (see below).

The G5s have the leverage because they will be able to schedule FCS or FBS giving them more options to fill their dates. This will help to create football atmospheres on G5 campuses as they schedule more and more Home/Home agreements with P5 schools. This will help them to recruit and help raise revenue which can help with retaining coaching staffs and may lead to more MAC/Sunbelt type teams being able to build programs that are sustainable rather than being decimated when their 10 win program has everyone poached away.

Additionally, with closed scheduling, you won't see many issues with G5 teams not getting quality games that prevent them from getting access to top bowls or even the playoffs. Boise State (and Utah when they were talking of suing) spent many years being black balled where no one would schedule them because they were too good but lacked the cashe. That is going to be very hard to do any longer since every team in their conference since teams will need games. Additionally, G5 teams will be helped by the new (semi) closed systems. Currently, games with the likes of Eastern Washington and North Dakota State's of the world are considered outside entities that only count as a win towards bowl eligibility. By having less of the FCS games, there will create a closed loop in the ranking systems which will make for better rankings since there will be a lot more FBS vs FBS meetings. This will help the G5 teams (at the expense of the bottom half of the P5).

The only thing I can think is that the Big Ten's of the world have done the analysis and realize that attendance at home games is down and that their television revenue is the lifeblood that they need to maintain. By going on the road more, they create scarcity for their home games and drive up demand for when they do compete at home. Additionally, with less home games, they will have more fans tuning in to watch their game on TV which will drive viewership and help their TV revenue.


The P5 teams going to G5 stadiums this season (and this is before the P5 have cut back on the FCS games):

Duke at Tulane
Miami at Florida Atlantic
Miami at Cincinnati
NC State at Old Dominion
NC State at South Alabama
Pittsburgh at Akron
Syracuse at South Florida
Virginia Tech at East Carolina
Wake Forrest at Army
Baylor at SMU
Iowa State at Toledo
Kansas State at UT-San Antonio
Oklahoma State at Central Michigan
Michigan State at Western Michigan
Minnesota at Colorado State
Penn State at Temple
Purdue at Marshall
Rutgers at Army
Arizona at Nevada
Colorado at Hawaii
UCLA at UNLV
Utah at Fresno State
Washington at Boise State
Mississippi State at Southern Miss
Missouri at Arkansas State
Ole Miss at Memphis
Vanderbilt at Middle Tennessee
Vanderbilt at Houston

Notre Dame is also playing at Temple......

[BisonFan02]

For those that don't believe there can be bitter intrastate battles between universities on the political level, I shall refer you to the recent UAB fiasco.

Don't disagree, but in the case of ND, it isn't comparable to Bama. The actual school funding conversation for ND is interesting...and the number of "insert smallish ND town here" state universities are money pits...but it doesn't go as far as intentional athletic program hampering like at UAB. Hell...look at states like NE, MN, and WI. Do you suppose those states ever want to see another DI football program in their states...let alone just an FCS one?

[Pinnum]

Notre Dame is also playing at Temple......

Ah, thanks for the catch! I only looked at P5 conference schedule so I accidently omitted the indies...

I suppose, since the Big Ten has declared BYU a P5 school, you could probably include their visits to San Jose State and Utah State...

[BisonBacker]

Not buying the political conspiracy thing. There are plenty of stepchild state universities that have made the move. Look at the Sun Belt.

You have no idea. Don't care you aren't buying proof is in the pudding. History of disparity in funding between the big two.

[344Johnson]

Our biggest problem is in Bismarck with the politicians who are not fans of NDSU due to their alliances with another school. They'd do anything to keep NDSU down. Outsiders don't see it but it's there and it's real.

Yeah, okay dude.


For those that don't believe there can be bitter intrastate battles between universities on the political level, I shall refer you to the recent UAB fiasco.

NDSU isn't UAB though. More like Auburn.


Don't disagree, but in the case of ND, it isn't comparable to Bama. The actual school funding conversation for ND is interesting...and the number of "insert smallish ND town here" state universities are money pits...but it doesn't go as far as intentional athletic program hampering like at UAB. Hell...look at states like NE, MN, and WI. Do you suppose those states ever want to see another DI football program in their states...let alone just an FCS one?

This is fair and reasonable. JC taught you well.

[BisonBacker]

I don't intend this as smack, but does the Fargo Dome even meet the minimum capacity requirement for FBS? Probably want to have some sort of plan in place for that before getting all antsy to make the jump.

Yes it does (Barely) but they need a larger venue period. No room for growth in the dome.

[BisonBacker]

Yeah, okay dude.



NDSU isn't UAB though. More like Auburn.



This is fair and reasonable. JC taught you well.

You have no idea. Years ago (during the moveup) I had inside ties to NDSU and know for a fact things that went on. You can live with your head in the sand all you want but all you have to do is look at the funding disparity. Keep telling yourself it's not real but numbers don't lie.

[344Johnson]

You have no idea. Years ago (during the moveup) I had inside ties to NDSU and know for a fact things that went on. You can live with your head in the sand all you want but all you have to do is look at the funding disparity. Keep telling yourself it's not real but numbers don't lie.

Yep. The state legislature wants one of the two big schools in the state to fail.

[Professor Chaos]

Don't disagree, but in the case of ND, it isn't comparable to Bama. The actual school funding conversation for ND is interesting...and the number of "insert smallish ND town here" state universities are money pits...but it doesn't go as far as intentional athletic program hampering like at UAB. Hell...look at states like NE, MN, and WI. Do you suppose those states ever want to see another DI football program in their states...let alone just an FCS one?
Yeah, ND as a whole spends an assload of money on higher education. Took me a while to dig it up but I remembered reading about this last year: Why 2 States Have Poured Money Into Public Higher Education (http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/11/24/why-2-states-have-poured-money-into-public-higher-education). In a nutshell it says that North Dakota and Alaska are the only two states spending more on higher ed in 2014 than they did in 2008. Alaska had a modest 3.5% increase while ND increased by 38.6%.

The latest state funds appropriations I could find were here (starting on page 48): http://www.ndus.nodak.edu/uploads/reports/116/analysis-of-2015-17-legislative-appropriation-may-2015.pdf

Bismarck State College: $38.2M
Lake Region State College: $16.6M
Williston State College: $12.7M
North Dakota State University: $157.4M
North Dakota State College of Science: $58.0M
Dickinson State University: $27.0M
Mayville State University: $16.7M
Minot State University: $48.8M
Valley City State University: $39.8M
Dakota College at Bottineau: $9.8M
University of North Dakota (including school of health and medical sciences): $311.9M

Add that all up and you have a state with around 700,000 residents that's appropriated $737M to higher education this year or roughly $1,000 per resident. If California did that they'd be spending $39 billion on higher education (no idea what they actually spend). EDIT: Looks like CA spends about $5B from their state's general fund on higher ed (http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2013-14/pdf/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf). I'd say that's pretty telling about how much ND spends in relation to the size of the state.

[BisonBacker]

Yep. The state legislature wants one of the two big schools in the state to fail.
Jesus are you that stupid? Show me where I said that. You can't. There is a difference between wanting a someone to fail and wanting to keep them underfunded. If you truly graduated from any college you ought to ask for a refund.

[bluehenbillk]

Actually the WVU coach has a valid point. With the plethora of FBS/FCS games this week there were a heckuva lot of stinkers. Can't they spread them around - put a damper on the 1st Saturday of the year IMO.

[BisonBacker]

Yeah, ND as a whole spends an assload of money on higher education. Took me a while to dig it up but I remembered reading about this last year: Why 2 States Have Poured Money Into Public Higher Education (http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/11/24/why-2-states-have-poured-money-into-public-higher-education). In a nutshell it says that North Dakota and Alaska are the only two states spending more on higher ed in 2014 than they did in 2008. Alaska had a modest 3.5% increase while ND increased by 38.6%.

The latest state funds appropriations I could find were here (starting on page 48): http://www.ndus.nodak.edu/uploads/reports/116/analysis-of-2015-17-legislative-appropriation-may-2015.pdf

Bismarck State College: $38.2M
Lake Region State College: $16.6M
Williston State College: $12.7M
North Dakota State University: $157.4M
North Dakota State College of Science: $58.0M
Dickinson State University: $27.0M
Mayville State University: $16.7M
Minot State University: $48.8M
Valley City State University: $39.8M
Dakota College at Bottineau: $9.8M
University of North Dakota (including school of health and medical sciences): $311.9M

Add that all up and you have a state with around 700,000 residents that's appropriated $737M to higher education this year (or roughly $1,000 per resident). If California did that they'd be spending $39 billion on higher education (no idea what they actually spend).

Break those numbers down even further and see how the state funds per student at the different colleges. Or put another way what each school gets based on their claimed enrollment.

- - - Updated - - -


Actually the WVU coach has a valid point. With the plethora of FBS/FCS games this week there were a heckuva lot of stinkers. Can't they spread them around - put a damper on the 1st Saturday of the year IMO.
Exactly.

[Professor Chaos]

Break those numbers down even further and see how the state funds per student at the different colleges. Or put another way what each school gets based on their claimed enrollment.

I know what you're getting at. UND and NDSU have roughly the same enrollment so it doesn't take a math genius to break down that disparity per student. But I'm pretty sure the smaller 4 year schools like VCSU are the highest per student. North Dakota just has too many publicly funded colleges and universities period.

[BisonBacker]

I know what you're getting at. UND and NDSU have roughly the same enrollment so it doesn't take a math genius to break that disparity per student. But I'm pretty sure the smaller 4 year schools like VCSU are the highest per student. North Dakota just has too many publicly funded colleges and universities period.

This is a fact!!!! As far as per student funding anyway you slice it NDSU ends up at or near the bottom of all 11.

[344Johnson]

Jesus are you that stupid? Show me where I said that. You can't. There is a difference between wanting a someone to fail and wanting to keep them underfunded. If you truly graduated from any college you ought to ask for a refund.

Did you specifically say fail...nah, but you constantly complain about how NDSU gets shortchanged. Close enough. If you are so mad about the funding, ask the legislature why UND gets more money than NDSU.

I have a degree in Finance from NDSU.

[BisonBacker]

Did you specifically say fail...nah, but you constantly complain about how NDSU gets shortchanged. Close enough. If you are so mad about the funding, ask the legislature why UND gets more money than NDSU.

I have a degree in Finance from NDSU.

First your claim of a degree in Finance from NDSU is laughable. Facts are facts. If you truly had a degree in finance from any university you wouldn't argue this point as you know you would lose. It's irrefutable history on the funding disparity. Numbers don't lie. Enough of the thread derailing. Back to FBS/FCS scheduling.

[344Johnson]

First your claim of a degree in Finance from NDSU is laughable. Facts are facts. If you truly had a degree in finance from any university you wouldn't argue this point as you know you would lose. It's irrefutable history on the funding disparity. Numbers don't lie. Enough of the thread derailing. Back to FBS/FCS scheduling.

I'd be happy to send a picture of it to you sometime. You started the discussion. UND gets more money. No one has disputed that.

Some P5 teams are getting away from scheduling FCS games. Probably a good move on their part.

[F'N Hawks]

I cannot believe Dana Holgorsen is advocating for reduced legislature funding to NDSU. What a dink. xrotatehx

[BisonBacker]

I'm curious how many FCS schools are using the money game as a way of keeping the athletic budget above water? If there are many doing that they are going to be in deep trouble when these games no longer happen.

[Libertine]

There's no byline on that article but I would love to know who wrote it. I watched the entire press conference in question and Dana Holgorsen never said or implied what that article is reporting. If anything, Holgorsen was very respectful of lower division football during that presser and only stated that he wanted other P5 schools to limit the number of FCS and low-FBS that they play in a given year which, honestly, is perfectly understandable. In y opinion, this is more ESPN twisting Holgorsen's words to drive their own agenda.

[Pinnum]

Yeah, ND as a whole spends an assload of money on higher education. Took me a while to dig it up but I remembered reading about this last year: Why 2 States Have Poured Money Into Public Higher Education (http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/11/24/why-2-states-have-poured-money-into-public-higher-education). In a nutshell it says that North Dakota and Alaska are the only two states spending more on higher ed in 2014 than they did in 2008. Alaska had a modest 3.5% increase while ND increased by 38.6%.



North Dakota's Tax Revenue was 84% higher in 2012 than it was in 2008. For comparison to some other states, California was down 4.5%, Montana saw nearly zero change in public revenue, and South Dakota was 14% higher. UMass made the jump to FBS and at the time the state had to tighten their belt with tax revenue only being up 3% between 2008 and 2012. The oil money has been good for higher education in North Dakota.

[Pinnum]

I'm curious how many FCS schools are using the money game as a way of keeping the athletic budget above water? If there are many doing that they are going to be in deep trouble when these games no longer happen.

Savannah State immediately comes to mind.

Though many do it. It is only a problem if schools have contracts in place to pay salaries for years down the road that are dependent on the guarantee game revenue. I know in basketball there are some FCS conferences where this is the case, but the basketball games will continue to be scheduled so it shouldn't impact them any.

If the G5 end up getting paid more, they will be able to turn around and schedule a few FCS games which might ease the transition for some FCS teams needing the money.

[kdinva]

...I watched the entire press conference in question and Dana Holgorsen never said or implied what that article is reporting..... In my opinion, this is more ESPN twisting Holgorsen's words to drive their own agenda.

I smell Herbstreit's DNA all over this.... xnodx

[Pinnum]

Break those numbers down even further and see how the state funds per student at the different colleges. Or put another way what each school gets based on their claimed enrollment.

- - - Updated - - -



If they are including the Medical School at UND it would be Apples and Oranges. Medical schools spend a TON per student. The infrastructure and faculty at Medical Schools cost many multiples of what undergraduates cost.

[Twentysix]

I don't disagree with that however my exception to your comment is this. For the very few top level FCS schools there are in my opinion a larger number of FCS in name only schools who play at this level in name only. I think NDSU is a step below where they should be. I'd rather see NDSU continue to grow its brand as opposed to keeping the status quo mentality. You are either moving forward or you are moving backward. I think in time it will work itself out and a split will occur.

Growth for the sake of growth alone is the ideology of a cancer cell.

The FBS is probably the answer for NDSU in the long run, but what is going on in College Football, especially at the very top of the top, is going to ultimately cause the whole thing to destabilize.

[Twentysix]

Yeah, ND as a whole spends an assload of money on higher education. Took me a while to dig it up but I remembered reading about this last year: Why 2 States Have Poured Money Into Public Higher Education (http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/11/24/why-2-states-have-poured-money-into-public-higher-education). In a nutshell it says that North Dakota and Alaska are the only two states spending more on higher ed in 2014 than they did in 2008. Alaska had a modest 3.5% increase while ND increased by 38.6%.

The latest state funds appropriations I could find were here (starting on page 48): http://www.ndus.nodak.edu/uploads/reports/116/analysis-of-2015-17-legislative-appropriation-may-2015.pdf

Bismarck State College: $38.2M
Lake Region State College: $16.6M
Williston State College: $12.7M
North Dakota State University: $157.4M
North Dakota State College of Science: $58.0M
Dickinson State University: $27.0M
Mayville State University: $16.7M
Minot State University: $48.8M
Valley City State University: $39.8M
Dakota College at Bottineau: $9.8M
University of North Dakota (including school of health and medical sciences): $311.9M

Add that all up and you have a state with around 700,000 residents that's appropriated $737M to higher education this year or roughly $1,000 per resident. If California did that they'd be spending $39 billion on higher education (no idea what they actually spend). EDIT: Looks like CA spends about $5B from their state's general fund on higher ed (http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2013-14/pdf/BudgetSummary/HigherEducation.pdf). I'd say that's pretty telling about how much ND spends in relation to the size of the state.

The UC (10 campuses 240,000 students) runs on a little under $9 billion a year and the CSU (23 campuses 460,000 students) runs on a little under $5.5 billion [Also the California Community Colleges system has 113 colleges and 2,100,000 students: I don't have its budget at hand]. But, much of that funding is from elsewhere and not state taxpayers.

[BisonBacker]

Growth for the sake of growth alone is the ideology of a cancer cell.

The FBS is probably the answer for NDSU in the long run, but what is going on in College Football, especially at the very top of the top, is going to ultimately cause the whole thing to destabilize.

I don't see it like that at all. I don't believe NDSU should move up just for the sake of "growth" as you put it. I believe it's where NDSU belongs.

[Twentysix]

I don't see it like that at all. I don't believe NDSU should move up just for the sake of "growth" as you put it. I believe it's where NDSU belongs.

Can you make a case for it, aside from just believing?

I'm not against NDSU going FBS, but I realize that it is going to put a lot of stress on the university at this time.

[uni88]

NDSU isn't UAB though. More like Auburn.

This is probably a pretty accurate comparison. Ag/Engineering/Tech schools usually play 2nd fiddle to the Liberal Arts/Medical schools in their state. Alabama/Auburn, Iowa/Iowa State, Michigan/Michigan State and so on.

Can someone provide the actual numbers from the last several years to show the funding disparity? I'm interested but not interested enough to actually look it up.

[dbackjon]

If they are including the Medical School at UND it would be Apples and Oranges. Medical schools spend a TON per student. The infrastructure and faculty at Medical Schools cost many multiples of what undergraduates cost.

Beat me to it.

You would need to break out the Med and Law schools first, then compare funding.

[Hammersmith]

I don't intend this as smack, but does the Fargo Dome even meet the minimum capacity requirement for FBS? Probably want to have some sort of plan in place for that before getting all antsy to make the jump.

You're probably thinking of an old rule. It used to be that your facility had to hold 30k to be allowed in FBS(actually I-A back then). Apparently there were potential legal issues with that rule, so they changed it to the 15k average rolling attendance.




Yeah, ND as a whole spends an assload of money on higher education. Took me a while to dig it up but I remembered reading about this last year: Why 2 States Have Poured Money Into Public Higher Education (http://www.usnews.com/news/college-of-tomorrow/articles/2014/11/24/why-2-states-have-poured-money-into-public-higher-education). In a nutshell it says that North Dakota and Alaska are the only two states spending more on higher ed in 2014 than they did in 2008. Alaska had a modest 3.5% increase while ND increased by 38.6%.


While I don't disagree with your premise, one has to remember that North Dakota had a couple really bad decades prior to the oil and ag boom of the late 2000s and early 2010s. Part of the recent massive swell in higher ed budgets is just the catch-up of about 20 years of stagnant or reduced budgets.


If they are including the Medical School at UND it would be Apples and Oranges. Medical schools spend a TON per student. The infrastructure and faculty at Medical Schools cost many multiples of what undergraduates cost.

It's not. If you include the med school, the comparison becomes ridiculous. At the base level for the 2015-17 biennium, UND was supposed to receive $154M and NDSU was supposed to receive $143M. I could almost accept that. But extra stuff was added so that UND ended up with $171M and NDSU ended up with $157M. That's from the state's general fund and does not include major capital improvement projects(UND got a giant one and one or two mediums - NDSU got none). The med school adds another $53M onto UND's total. (with cap improvements it becomes $157.4M(NDSU) vs. $240.4M(UND)/$311.9M(UND+med))



The upper Midwest in general, and the Dakotas in particular, have a bad case of Tall Poppy Syndrome. If you are successful, you must be cheating. It puts transformative institutions like NDSU in an impossible situation. If you don't take risks, you stagnate. If you take risks and succeed, you are immoral and must be punished. It makes rational people want to beat their heads into their keyboards on a regular basis.

[RootinFerDukes]

Low end P5 schools better watch what they wish for. Btw, wvu has fallen to middle of the pack in the bcs world under holgorsen's tenure.
If they take away their wins and play more power teams, that's even more losses and fewer wins. Losing makes fans disinterested. Disinterest leads to loss of money.

[dgtw]

Nobody is forcing West Virginia to play FCS teams.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lionsrking2]

FBS/FCS matchups aren't going away anytime soon, if ever.

[Herder]

Maybe he saw the THWACK, I mean the SWAC scores from last weekend.

[BisonBacker]

You're probably thinking of an old rule. It used to be that your facility had to hold 30k to be allowed in FBS(actually I-A back then). Apparently there were potential legal issues with that rule, so they changed it to the 15k average rolling attendance.





While I don't disagree with your premise, one has to remember that North Dakota had a couple really bad decades prior to the oil and ag boom of the late 2000s and early 2010s. Part of the recent massive swell in higher ed budgets is just the catch-up of about 20 years of stagnant or reduced budgets.



It's not. If you include the med school, the comparison becomes ridiculous. At the base level for the 2015-17 biennium, UND was supposed to receive $154M and NDSU was supposed to receive $143M. I could almost accept that. But extra stuff was added so that UND ended up with $171M and NDSU ended up with $157M. That's from the state's general fund and does not include major capital improvement projects(UND got a giant one and one or two mediums - NDSU got none). The med school adds another $53M onto UND's total. (with cap improvements it becomes $157.4M(NDSU) vs. $240.4M(UND)/$311.9M(UND+med))



The upper Midwest in general, and the Dakotas in particular, have a bad case of Tall Poppy Syndrome. If you are successful, you must be cheating. It puts transformative institutions like NDSU in an impossible situation. If you don't take risks, you stagnate. If you take risks and succeed, you are immoral and must be punished. It makes rational people want to beat their heads into their keyboards on a regular basis.

Thanks for chiming in Hammer I know you have done much more of the number crunching over the last several years.

[Bisonoline]

Similarly one has to explore the boundaries and as far as what you are and what you aren't can be taken two ways. What you are and what you can be? Fear to take the next step can be viewed as fear to grow to be what you can be. No risk no reward same as when we make the 3+ decade move up to late to FCS. Where would we be now had we moved up when we should have? Fair questions to ask from both viewpoints. I'm more in the camp that NDSU is unlike many in the FCS that we have much more room to grow than most others. That is why to me the move up is the logical step.

I have no issues with moving up. As long as its whats best for NDSU.

[SUUTbird]

Personally I think sooner rather than later Montana, Montana State, North Dakota State and South Dakota State should approach the Mountain West Conference and say all four of us want to join, even as football only members I don't think they would refuse.

[Pinnum]

Personally I think sooner rather than later Montana, Montana State, North Dakota State and South Dakota State should approach the Mountain West Conference and say all four of us want to join, even as football only members I don't think they would refuse.

Actually, they would be good fits to join the WAC as all-sports members. The WAC would then be able to resume sponsoring Football (as it did before 2013) and they could join WAC's New Mexico State, pick up Idaho and maybe even add UMass as a football associate member.

[BisonFan02]

Actually, they would be good fits to join the WAC as all-sports members. The WAC would then be able to resume sponsoring Football (as it did before 2013) and they could join WAC's New Mexico State, pick up Idaho and maybe even add UMass as a football associate member.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh no. Not with those schools (especially UMass).

[Pinnum]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh no. Not with those schools (especially UMass).

I don't see the MWC making an offer but a WAC offer I could see happening. (Which would give access to bowl games and more meetings with FBS teams so it could be used as a platform to build the program like Boise State did.)

But honest question for NDSU, Montana, Montana State, and SDSU fans. How well do you think the program would draw if they didn't have the playoff games late in the year and had a handful of .500 seasons as members of the MWC?

Would the fans continue to turn out because it was FBS teams that were being played? Would attendance increase as more people got excited about the level of play (assuming stadium increase)? Or would interest drop as the teams suffered more losses and offered less home games?

[BisonBacker]

I don't see the MWC making an offer but a WAC offer I could see happening. (Which would give access to bowl games and more meetings with FBS teams so it could be used as a platform to build the program like Boise State did.)

But honest question for NDSU, Montana, Montana State, and SDSU fans. How well do you think the program would draw if they didn't have the playoff games late in the year and had a handful of .500 seasons as members of the MWC?

Would the fans continue to turn out because it was FBS teams that were being played? Would attendance increase as more people got excited about the level of play (assuming stadium increase)? Or would interest drop as the teams suffered more losses and offered less home games?


That's a fair question and the honest answer is attendance would suffer for a while. It's all dependant not on just winning and losing but having competition that is on par with (read peer schools) each other. With increased scholarships and being in the right conference read MWC as an example even with losses I don't think attendance would drop. Put us in say a sun belt conference and not only due to geography but also lacking like universities yes attendance would suffer. I know many will read that as smack but it is the truth. Montana, NDSU, Wyoming, Colorado, Colorado State ect are like schools. The WAC as it is now is a Cluster ****

I should also add that my comments above are just that. Comments, I don't see it happening soon it's just who I feel NDSU would be on par with. Again I know this will be ripped to shreds but so be it.

[jacksfan29]

That's a fair question and the honest answer is attendance would suffer for a while. It's all dependant not on just winning and losing but having competition that is on par with (read peer schools) each other. With increased scholarships and being in the right conference read MWC as an example even with losses I don't think attendance would drop. Put us in say a sun belt conference and not only due to geography but also lacking like universities yes attendance would suffer. I know many will read that as smack but it is the truth. Montana, NDSU, Wyoming, Colorado, Colorado State ect are like schools. The WAC as it is now is a Cluster ****

I should also add that my comments above are just that. Comments, I don't see it happening soon it's just who I feel NDSU would be on par with. Again I know this will be ripped to shreds but so be it.

Above is the perfect answer. I can not see SDSU, NDSU, MSU, Montana wanting to associate themselves in Olympic sports with the list of schools currently making up the WAC. Would a WAC only FB conference work? Only if you had like schools in it. Think Montana, MSU, NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, NMSU, Idaho, Wyoming (possibly EWU and/or Cal Poly). It isn't going to happen, or is rather unlikely that it will happen. I

'm pretty sure the four schools you asked about; NDSU, SDSU, Montana and MSU are all pretty comfortable waiting things out, seeing what changes occur and reacting appropriately at that time.

[SUUTbird]

Actually, they would be good fits to join the WAC as all-sports members. The WAC would then be able to resume sponsoring Football (as it did before 2013) and they could join WAC's New Mexico State, pick up Idaho and maybe even add UMass as a football associate member.

I don't ever see the WAC ever resurrecting Football ever again and to be honest I think the Montanas and the Dakota States are smart enough to avoid that trap. Honestly the best scenarios for them would be:

-If Fullerton has his way and is able to split the Big Sky into a two tiered conference for Football only I could see the Dakota States and potentially other schools join as Football only members. This is if the G5 and P5 split occurs which many feel is only a matter of time.

-If the split doesn't occur I could see the Pac12 eventually expanding up to a minimum of 14 schools which means chances are Boise State will be out of the MWC and potentially either San Diego State, Colorado State or even BYU may get an invite which would open up the MWC for potential expansion to "keep up".

Granted I only see the second scenario happening if the Big 12 is looking to expand (which is rumored to be happening in 2016) which may start another arms race, so far the Dakota States and the Montanas are playing it smart by sitting back and waiting to see what will happen when the dust settles.

[Twentysix]

From a sports perspective Boise state could maybe fit int he PAC 12 (I'm not really sure about that). From an academic standpoint no way in hell Boise State gets a PAC12 invite.

It is more likely that UCSD sprouts an FBS program and is straight invited into the PAC 12 lol, and that isn't happening.

Their two newest invites CU-Boulder (34) and Utah (93) are top 100 world schools academically. Boise State isn't even a top 1000 world university. I'm pretty sure Utah and Arizona State are the two worst schools in the PAC academically, and they are both top 100.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2015.html

http://www.cwur.org/2015/

"Peer institution," especially in the BCS (specifically in the B1G, PAC, and ACC), goes way beyond athletics.

UC Davis with some athletic improvements is a much more realistic PAC 12 candidate than Boise State.

BYU is more likely than Boise State, but extremely unlikely for the same reason. BYU is a middling school academically, it barely makes a list of the top 500 schools in the world, BYU also comes with religious baggage. Boise State and BYU really only fit into the BigXII.


UT-Austin is the only school from the plains west that is a realistic candidate left for the PAC. If there is more expansion, it will probably be from a more nonsensical (in terms of geographic footprint) place than Texas.

[344Johnson]

I know many will read that as smack but it is the truth. Montana, NDSU, Wyoming, Colorado, Colorado State ect are like schools. The WAC as it is now is a Cluster ****

I should also add that my comments above are just that. Comments, I don't see it happening soon it's just who I feel NDSU would be on par with. Again I know this will be ripped to shreds but so be it.

When on earth did NDSU become a peer to Colorado?

[Twentysix]

When on earth did NDSU become a peer to Colorado?

xrolleyesx

[veinup]

should i be slightly embarrassed that i have no idea what the difference between the P5 and the G5 and all of that crap is?

[Griz23]

should i be slightly embarrassed that i have no idea what the difference between the P5 and the G5 and all of that crap is?

I too would appreciate an explanation...

[AshevilleApp2]

should i be slightly embarrassed that i have no idea what the difference between the P5 and the G5 and all of that crap is?

P5 (Power 5)

ACC
BIG 10
BIG 12
PAC 12
SEC

G5 (GROUP OF 5)

American Athletic Conference
Conference USA
MAC
Sun Belt Mountain West

Basically, the P5 schools (and Notre Dame I guess) are the ones that legitimately have a shot of winning a National Championship.

[veinup]

P5 (Power 5)

ACC
BIG 10
BIG 12
PAC 12
SEC

G5 (GROUP OF 5)

American Athletic Conference
Conference USA
MAC
Sun Belt Mountain West

Basically, the P5 schools (and Notre Dame I guess) are the ones that legitimately have a shot of winning a National Championship.

ahhh okay. thanks for the explanation App fella. so the P5 is the somebodies and teh G5 is the nobodies.

[AshevilleApp2]

ahhh okay. thanks for the explanation App fella. so the P5 is the somebodies and teh G5 is the nobodies.

In many people's eyes, yes. xlolx

I would like to see it a little differently though.

[Griz23]

P5 (Power 5)

ACC
BIG 10
BIG 12
PAC 12
SEC

G5 (GROUP OF 5)

American Athletic Conference
Conference USA
MAC
Sun Belt Mountain West

Basically, the P5 schools (and Notre Dame I guess) are the ones that legitimately have a shot of winning a National Championship.

Thanks. How did they come up with Group of 5...I'd have never guessed that...and I've thought about it a lot...

[AshevilleApp2]

Thanks. How did they come up with Group of 5...I'd have never guessed that...and I've thought about it a lot...

I honestly don't know. Hell, I might be wrong. But its what I've read before.

[Twentysix]

Thanks. How did they come up with Group of 5...I'd have never guessed that...and I've thought about it a lot...

It has to do with money.