What the FCS needs

[Gringer1]

Greetings, friends. It has been some time since I last posted here. Now that my university has completed its first season in the FBS and is about to begin its second, I would like to reflect on my thoughts regarding the move we made and on the FCS in general. I hope that you do not take this post as a trolling rant, but as an honest evaluation by someone who greatly enjoyed the time my team spent in the FCS.

What happened for us:
The first year in the Sun Belt was a fun one for Georgia Southern. We went undefeated in the conference and nearly pulled off a few big upsets against NCSU and Georgia Tech. I have to tell you that I was shocked at how we walked through most of the competition. The Sun Belt had a bit of a down year and we avoided playing the heavy favorites in Arkansas State and ULL, but I never expected to go undefeated. I was particularly surprised by how soundly we beat many of the teams. I'm still not sure what to make of that, but I don't chalk it all up to poor competition. Fritz really proved himself and I hope we can hold on to him for a while. Being able to watch every game on real TV or on ESPN3 (or whatever they call the web stream now) was great. It was a far cry from the days of having 1 game a year on a local PBS substation and catching the others on a grainy home-brewed stream from the opposing team (for a fee, of course). The local media gave us much more respect and coverage. The new stadium looked great and crowds were good for almost every game. I can't say that there was a noticeable increase in attendance for more than a couple games, but the fans did not turn away from the program and kept showing up. Our scores and results were much easier to find on sites like ESPN and we got a lot more attention from casual fans. People who used to demean my team were giving polite praise for our shocking entrance to the FBS and I can't tell you how surreal that felt.

What did not happen:
We didn't get on Sports Center or the like much more than before and we were still an afterthought for most the sports news cycle. Our near upsets against NCSU and GT might have actually gotten more coverage if we were an FCS team. The storyline of the new kid on the block rising up to the challenge was almost completely ignored by the national media, which simultaneously did and did not surprise me. If you aren't P5, you're fighting for the honorable mention spot. I just thought we had earned that mention.

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.

[superman7515]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/59379713.jpg

[Mattymc727]

Is this the same FBS coverage that San Jose State has? The school that cant find anyone to broadcast the UNH game or even stream it online for a fee? Sounds super awesome and way better than what any of us have...

[BEAR]

Sadly I can name more FCS schools than I can lower tier FBS schools. xlolx

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What the FCS needs is fewer FBS teams telling them what they need.

[eiu1999]

Sadly I can name more FCS schools than I can lower tier FBS schools. xlolx

Yes. soooooo sad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What the FCS needs is every conference to willingly participate in the FCS playoffs. If you had an FCS playoffs with Harvard, Grambling and FAMU as well as the NDSUs, etc, you'd have a truly nationwide postseason that would be compelling TV with a diversity of different schools. With all those high-value TV properties participating, ESPN might be more tempted to televise ALL the rounds.

[dewey]

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.

Hopefully when the P5 split apart that the G5 and the upper tier of FCS schools merge together into a second tier and some of the lower tier FCS schools merge into D2. However I do understand that trying to sell a move down (for either G5 to FCS or even FCS to D2 is a tough pill to swallow).

I know I watched every NDSU game last year via the NDSU athletic page or ESPN3 but the key thing there is that you have to want to watch FCS versus just flipping the channel and finding a game that looks interesting between a couple of G5 schools.

Dewey

[CasualFan]

I'll take your post seriously. Here are my comments.


Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS.
I'll agree that some schools don't belong. It's true of every level of NCAA football imo. Level is decided by a college's desire, not their performance. Imagine if we could send schools up or down based on what they do on the field. But then you would you do with scholarships during the transition up or down?


The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums.
Scholarships: My first reaction is to agree when the team is unable to field a quality team. Isn't their some rule about this that prevents some teams from doing it? If the team is quality, I don't care if they want to handicap themselves.

Attendance: Why? To me the thing that matters most is whether you can field a competitive team. If someone is doing great but can't draw, do you send them down to totally dominate the next division down? I don't understand the need for the requirement.


Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage.
I haven't had any trouble watching my team, but I do see a thread about a fellow poster who can't watch his team play FBS San Jose State. I think your issue probably has more to do with the team than the level of competition.

[OL FU]

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously

I don't consider it a troll post, but it is hard to imagine you saying this when you walked out of FCS into FBS and beat the crap out of most Sunbelt teams. I may be missing the point, but there are really bad teams all around. Maybe the Sunbelt should kick some teams out.xeyebrowx

[catbob]

Agree with Dewey, I've been hoping for about a year now that the D1 football is split into 3 divisions now, no more FBS or FCS. P5, G5, and whatever else I don't even care what happens there.

But FCS teams with good tradition and fan support should end up in the G5, and the rest of the FCS should move to that third tier. Or perhaps the 3rd tier is what FCS is right now, and the upper level FCS teams move into the G5, whatever works.

I agree that the FCS is very top heavy, always has been. There are some schools that just don't have any business competing in the same conference, division, as the other schools. If you don't compete in the playoffs and you don't offer 63 scholarships, you shouldn't be in FCS.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I don't see what removing the lesser leagues or having a huge playoff is going to help. The FCS needs to schedule it's playoff games more smartly. Even if you have a playoff game against two FCS teams with decent-sized fan bases, it's probably going to have lower priority than a lower-tier bowl game. That's just the nature of the beast.

[dbackjon]

What the FCS needs is every conference to willingly participate in the FCS playoffs. If you had an FCS playoffs with Harvard, Grambling and FAMU as well as the NDSUs, etc, you'd have a truly nationwide postseason that would be compelling TV with a diversity of different schools. With all those high-value TV properties participating, ESPN might be more tempted to televise ALL the rounds.


And all schools giving 60+ schollies

[BucBisonAtLarge]

We wouldn't be whooping it up for our big games against ULL or Arkansas State. Life is OK, really. Sorry you missed your bowl game.

[Daytripper]

Greetings, friends. It has been some time since I last posted here. Now that my university has completed its first season in the FBS and is about to begin its second, I would like to reflect on my thoughts regarding the move we made and on the FCS in general. I hope that you do not take this post as a trolling rant, but as an honest evaluation by someone who greatly enjoyed the time my team spent in the FCS.

What happened for us:
The first year in the Sun Belt was a fun one for Georgia Southern. We went undefeated in the conference and nearly pulled off a few big upsets against NCSU and Georgia Tech. I have to tell you that I was shocked at how we walked through most of the competition. The Sun Belt had a bit of a down year and we avoided playing the heavy favorites in Arkansas State and ULL, but I never expected to go undefeated. I was particularly surprised by how soundly we beat many of the teams. I'm still not sure what to make of that, but I don't chalk it all up to poor competition. Fritz really proved himself and I hope we can hold on to him for a while. Being able to watch every game on real TV or on ESPN3 (or whatever they call the web stream now) was great. It was a far cry from the days of having 1 game a year on a local PBS substation and catching the others on a grainy home-brewed stream from the opposing team (for a fee, of course). The local media gave us much more respect and coverage. The new stadium looked great and crowds were good for almost every game. I can't say that there was a noticeable increase in attendance for more than a couple games, but the fans did not turn away from the program and kept showing up. Our scores and results were much easier to find on sites like ESPN and we got a lot more attention from casual fans. People who used to demean my team were giving polite praise for our shocking entrance to the FBS and I can't tell you how surreal that felt.

What did not happen:
We didn't get on Sports Center or the like much more than before and we were still an afterthought for most the sports news cycle. Our near upsets against NCSU and GT might have actually gotten more coverage if we were an FCS team. The storyline of the new kid on the block rising up to the challenge was almost completely ignored by the national media, which simultaneously did and did not surprise me. If you aren't P5, you're fighting for the honorable mention spot. I just thought we had earned that mention.

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/lSVL6vdhdZVPW/200.gif

[BisonFan02]

more cowbell

[bonarae]

What the FCS needs is every conference to willingly participate in the FCS playoffs. If you had an FCS playoffs with Harvard, Grambling and FAMU as well as the NDSUs, etc, you'd have a truly nationwide postseason that would be compelling TV with a diversity of different schools. With all those high-value TV properties participating, ESPN might be more tempted to televise ALL the rounds.

I agree, but all of these conferences such schools are in have different priorities. That's why I had to switch to ETSU just to get a taste of the potential of playoffs. xsmhx


I'll agree that some schools don't belong. It's true of every level of NCAA football imo. Level is decided by a college's desire, not their performance. Imagine if we could send schools up or down based on what they do on the field. But then you would you do with scholarships during the transition up or down?

I agree with your post, but is it about time to form a new subdivision comprising of only non-scholarship FCS, along with the Sun Belt and MAC, compromising scholarships for the latter two conferences? That'll get the HBCU's to start participating in the playoffs again if the bottom-feeders are separated, to have the FCS become more homogeneous.


I don't consider it a troll post, but it is hard to imagine you saying this when you walked out of FCS into FBS and beat the crap out of most Sunbelt teams. I may be missing the point, but there are really bad teams all around. Maybe the Sunbelt should kick some teams out.xeyebrowx

See my quote immediately above.



What happened for us:
The first year in the Sun Belt was a fun one for Georgia Southern. We went undefeated in the conference and nearly pulled off a few big upsets against NCSU and Georgia Tech. I have to tell you that I was shocked at how we walked through most of the competition. The Sun Belt had a bit of a down year and we avoided playing the heavy favorites in Arkansas State and ULL, but I never expected to go undefeated. I was particularly surprised by how soundly we beat many of the teams. I'm still not sure what to make of that, but I don't chalk it all up to poor competition. Fritz really proved himself and I hope we can hold on to him for a while. Being able to watch every game on real TV or on ESPN3 (or whatever they call the web stream now) was great. It was a far cry from the days of having 1 game a year on a local PBS substation and catching the others on a grainy home-brewed stream from the opposing team (for a fee, of course). The local media gave us much more respect and coverage. The new stadium looked great and crowds were good for almost every game. I can't say that there was a noticeable increase in attendance for more than a couple games, but the fans did not turn away from the program and kept showing up. Our scores and results were much easier to find on sites like ESPN and we got a lot more attention from casual fans. People who used to demean my team were giving polite praise for our shocking entrance to the FBS and I can't tell you how surreal that felt.

Hmm, was the reaction better than Idaho's or even UMass'? I can say that way, but FCS fans don't fully appreciate why some of our best teams over the years have all but moved up.



What did not happen:
We didn't get on Sports Center or the like much more than before and we were still an afterthought for most the sports news cycle. Our near upsets against NCSU and GT might have actually gotten more coverage if we were an FCS team. The storyline of the new kid on the block rising up to the challenge was almost completely ignored by the national media, which simultaneously did and did not surprise me. If you aren't P5, you're fighting for the honorable mention spot. I just thought we had earned that mention.


Ah, yes, these are growing pains that are being experienced by the new FBS teams. The P5 is essentially closing its doors to others slowly... xsmhx and you are experiencing the sad reality of the FBS... xsmhx



What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.

I agree with the post; though I follow all three main divisions of NCAA football, I don't like how the Dayton rule is implemented in Division I, and also the positions of the Ivies and the PFL towards certain aspects of scholarships and playoffs. Remember, the FCS playoffs was really good before the PFL got the autobid nobody wanted... xsmhx (IMHO, the SWAC/MEAC/Ivies are better, they should get the PFL's. However, who will return to the playoffs first?)


I agree that the FCS is very top heavy, always has been. There are some schools that just don't have any business competing in the same conference, division, as the other schools. If you don't compete in the playoffs and you don't offer 63 scholarships, you shouldn't be in FCS.

Yes, I agree with you. The new non-scholarship opinion that I have can fit your wishes.

[citdog]

It is going to be hilarious when pigs ass loses to The Citadel this September.

[BisonFan02]

It is going to be hilarious when pigs ass loses to The Citadel this September.

Whip fannies!!!!! :D

[tigonian02]

It is going to be hilarious when pigs ass loses to The Citadel this September.


^^^ This is funny. You've entertained me jester....continue on...xdrunkyx

- - - Updated - - -

But really...in all seriousness...Cit always plays us close, so I expect a good game!

[PantherRob82]

The scores were easier to find? Click NCAA scoreboard, choose conference.

[citdog]

The scores were easier to find? Click NCAA scoreboard, choose conference.

They all hang around the telegraph office in pigs ass waiting for updates.

[bkrownd]

What I-AA needs is the restoration of the Yankee Conference.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

^^^ This is funny. You've entertained me jester....continue on...xdrunkyx

- - - Updated - - -

But really...in all seriousness...Cit always plays us close, so I expect a good game!

I don't mean to make this thread about Georgia Southern, but I wouldn't be that surprised if we play a close game with WVU, beat WMU, and then have a nail-biter against El Cid. We just have not had many easy wins against them and I don't think we're really much better than we were as an FCS team. Just don't know what it is about those bellhops that give us problems.

[Catamount87]

Just remember, FCS is part of the NCAA which in turn is basically controlled by the P5. They'll look after themselves and pretend to sometimes be egalitarian when it suits them politically.

Now an idea we could steal from football in the UK, relegation. If your team plays poorly and ends up at the bottom of the top tier, you move down a tier and play by that tier's rules. If you are in a lower tier and just crush it, you move up a tier. Now can you imagine if an SEC school really tanked then had to go down to FCS and play under FCS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships limitations? Conversely, a NDSU would move up and get to play using FBS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships.

[Daytripper]

Just remember, FCS is part of the NCAA which in turn is basically controlled by the P5. They'll look after themselves and pretend to sometimes be egalitarian when it suits them politically.

Now an idea we could steal from football in the UK, relegation. If your team plays poorly and ends up at the bottom of the top tier, you move down a tier and play by that tier's rules. If you are in a lower tier and just crush it, you move up a tier. Now can you imagine if an SEC school really tanked then had to go down to FCS and play under FCS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships limitations? Conversely, a NDSU would move up and get to play using FBS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships.


Nice idea but impossible in practice. Most schools' budgets are too dependent on state legislature funding to transition that quickly to a new set of financial requirements.

[centennial]

I say this with respect to Georgia Southern- Sun Belt is an absolute **** league. It gets a boost from playing P5 teams, IMO it is no better than the 3rd-5th place FCS league. At that point any top FCS team should dominate. App State went from 4-8 to 7-5, GoSu went from 7-4 to 9-3. That to me does not signify an increase in competition. Without ASU and GoSu the Sun Belt is even worst. I don't understand what all this gloating is about.

[Daytripper]

I say this with respect to Georgia Southern- Sun Belt is an absolute **** league. It gets a boost from playing P5 teams, IMO it is no better than the 3rd-5th place FCS league. At that point any top FCS team should dominate. App State went from 4-8 to 7-5, GoSu went from 7-4 to 9-3. That to me does not signify an increase in competition. Without ASU and GoSu the Sun Belt is even worst. I don't understand what all this gloating is about.


If you made up a conference of the elite FCS teams only and played against the Sun Belt Conference, the FCS conference would have a winning record.

[Mattymc727]

I say this with respect to Georgia Southern- Sun Belt is an absolute **** league. It gets a boost from playing P5 teams, IMO it is no better than the 3rd-5th place FCS league. At that point any top FCS team should dominate. App State went from 4-8 to 7-5, GoSu went from 7-4 to 9-3. That to me does not signify an increase in competition. Without ASU and GoSu the Sun Belt is even worst. I don't understand what all this gloating is about.

Aside from Georgia Southern. Non of those Sun Belt teams even makes the semifinals of the FCS playoffs last year. Same with a lot of WAC teams like SJSU, SMSU, UNM and such.

[Catsfan90]

Aside from Georgia Southern. Non of those Sun Belt teams even makes the semifinals of the FCS playoffs last year. Same with a lot of WAC teams like SJSU, SMSU, UNM and such.

The worst part is that their fans don't even see it. I have been reading the SJSU board and they are convinced that at any moment they will emerge as the greatest team known to man. In most rankings such as Sagarin and Massey, they are way behind a lot of FCS teams. This is true for so many lower FBS teams. They seem to jsut hold on to the term FBS like it actually has any mean whatsoever.

[centennial]

If you made up a conference of the elite FCS teams only and played against the Sun Belt Conference, the FCS conference would have a winning record.
They wouldn't have a winning record against the MVFC, CAA, a few of other leagues like the Big South, Southland, and the Big Sky would be close. This is with the recruiting and scholarship disparities. I would think all these leagues would surpass the SubPar Belt with full scholarships. The only respectable football school is Georgia Southern.

[BISON Thunder]

Do you have any data regarding what the financial impact has been to Georgia Southern with the move to FBS compared to FCS? Do you think it would much different with less on field success (i.e., UMASS)?


Greetings, friends. It has been some time since I last posted here. Now that my university has completed its first season in the FBS and is about to begin its second, I would like to reflect on my thoughts regarding the move we made and on the FCS in general. I hope that you do not take this post as a trolling rant, but as an honest evaluation by someone who greatly enjoyed the time my team spent in the FCS.

What happened for us:
The first year in the Sun Belt was a fun one for Georgia Southern. We went undefeated in the conference and nearly pulled off a few big upsets against NCSU and Georgia Tech. I have to tell you that I was shocked at how we walked through most of the competition. The Sun Belt had a bit of a down year and we avoided playing the heavy favorites in Arkansas State and ULL, but I never expected to go undefeated. I was particularly surprised by how soundly we beat many of the teams. I'm still not sure what to make of that, but I don't chalk it all up to poor competition. Fritz really proved himself and I hope we can hold on to him for a while. Being able to watch every game on real TV or on ESPN3 (or whatever they call the web stream now) was great. It was a far cry from the days of having 1 game a year on a local PBS substation and catching the others on a grainy home-brewed stream from the opposing team (for a fee, of course). The local media gave us much more respect and coverage. The new stadium looked great and crowds were good for almost every game. I can't say that there was a noticeable increase in attendance for more than a couple games, but the fans did not turn away from the program and kept showing up. Our scores and results were much easier to find on sites like ESPN and we got a lot more attention from casual fans. People who used to demean my team were giving polite praise for our shocking entrance to the FBS and I can't tell you how surreal that felt.

What did not happen:
We didn't get on Sports Center or the like much more than before and we were still an afterthought for most the sports news cycle. Our near upsets against NCSU and GT might have actually gotten more coverage if we were an FCS team. The storyline of the new kid on the block rising up to the challenge was almost completely ignored by the national media, which simultaneously did and did not surprise me. If you aren't P5, you're fighting for the honorable mention spot. I just thought we had earned that mention.

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.

[unigriff]

Savannah State could beat most Sunbelt teams :) BEAT those NCSU and GTs and then we'll talk.

[McNeese75]

The worst part is that their fans don't even see it. I have been reading the SJSU board and they are convinced that at any moment they will emerge as the greatest team known to man. In most rankings such as Sagarin and Massey, they are way behind a lot of FCS teams. This is true for so many lower FBS teams. They seem to jsut hold on to the term FBS like it actually has any mean whatsoever.

Go to the ULL board for a good dose of the koolaid crowd.

[Catsfan90]

Go to the ULL board for a good dose of the koolaid crowd.
I've read the sun belt boards before they are actually sort of scary. I'm nervous to see what I'd find in the ULL board.

[McNeese75]

I've read the sun belt boards before they are actually sort of scary. I'm nervous to see what I'd find in the ULL board.
Enter at your own risk

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[eiu1999]

Do you have any data regarding what the financial impact has been to Georgia Southern with the move to FBS compared to FCS? Do you think it would much different with less on field success (i.e., UMASS)?

Good point, financial data is as important as anything.

[Catsfan90]

Enter at your own risk

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

My mind will never unsee what my eyes have just witnessed....... Raginpagin.com is why the rest of the world hates us xeyebrowx

[McNeese75]

Now you understand why we are so fond of the vermilion buffoons. We get another chance at putting them in their place next year. I assume GSU plays them this year and I will be rooting for a BIG Eagle victory.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[centennial]

Enter at your own risk

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
It's a world of delusional fans. Csnbbs Sun Belt isn't much better. They were predicting Southern and App State go winless, 1 win in league play, calling the computers biased.

[KUlawJack]

more cowbell

Agreed. Stupid conference rules.

[CasualFan]

It's a world of delusional fans.
Fortunately we are all completely realistic here.

Now, please excuse me while I get ready to celebrate Coastal's 2015-16 national championship.

[Catsfan90]

It's a world of delusional fans. Csnbbs Sun Belt isn't much better. They were predicting Southern and App State go winless, 1 win in league play, calling the computers biased.

because computers have emotion apparently lol

[BisonFan02]

because computers have emotion apparently lol

You didn't hear? Sagarin became "self aware" last year.

[FargoBison]

He makes some good points, there are programs that drag the FCS down. Schools that pile on the FBS body bag games and get their ass kicked every time. Of course every level has that, sadly in the FCS world those are programs that get exposure because they are playing big name opponents and most often multiple big programs in a season.

Honestly we also have programs that are scheduling games against teams that aren't even real schools. I am not sure a program can get any more pathetic than that.

In reality DI needs three levels of football...I know there are three levels now but the levels are not really setup correctly, too much overlap between G5 and upper FCS.

Level 1...Do whatever the hell you want more or less. Spend millions upon millions....The current P5.

Level 2...A level about high level quality football but the programs just don't have the ability or TV money to do whatever it takes. There is actually a rather large group of programs in this level and if they were all in the same group could produce a very compelling playoff. There would probably be enough solid programs to generate solid exposure for this tier.

Level 3...Budget programs(schools that want a team just to say that they have one), wannabe DIII programs and those that just want to do their own thing(Ivy, SWAC and MEAC). I guess this tier could have a small playoff if they wanted.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

In response to the financial question, I can report that donations, sponsorships, media contracts, and season ticket sales are all UP greater than expected. It remains to be seen how well that will be sustained.

I loved IAA football because of the intimate atmospheres and true student-athlete participation. I was frustrated with trying to sell our program in UGA's backyard constantly explaining to people that we were not D2!

Marketing and growth are the only benefits of the FBS and it wouldn't apply to every school. I think NDSU, Montana, JMU could benefit and possibly Delaware. Jax St, Chattanooga, Coastal Carolina, Eastern My, and Mizzou St run the risk of losing market share to the regional FBS in their footprint.

Unfortunately, College Football to the average fan is all about perception and only folks on boards like this truly know how little separation exists on the field between the bottom 80-90 of FBS and the top 30-40 of FCS. The fact remains that depending upon your geographical market, perception counts a lot.

[bonarae]

In response to the financial question, I can report that donations, sponsorships, media contracts, and season ticket sales are all UP greater than expected. It remains to be seen how well that will be sustained.

I loved IAA football because of the intimate atmospheres and true student-athlete participation. I was frustrated with trying to sell our program in UGA's backyard constantly explaining to people that we were not D2!

Marketing and growth are the only benefits of the FBS and it wouldn't apply to every school. I think NDSU, Montana, JMU could benefit and possibly Delaware. Jax St, Chattanooga, Coastal Carolina, Eastern My, and Mizzou St run the risk of losing market share to the regional FBS in their footprint.

Unfortunately, College Football to the average fan is all about perception and only folks on boards like this truly know how little separation exists on the field between the bottom 80-90 of FBS and the top 30-40 of FCS. The fact remains that depending upon your geographical market, perception counts a lot.

I agree with this standpoint.

Second paragraph: For example, an FCS (or even a regional FBS) program competes with D2's (e.g. Michigan), and in some cases, D3's and even NAIA's (e.g. Montana). In some regions, the lower division schools will get the better share of recruits just because they have a winning tradition and/or the players would have better focus with the coaches.

Third paragraph: Yes, it won't apply to every FCS attempting to move up. Just take a look at some ex-FCS who moved up, struggling at the G5 level and making us laughingstocks while praising themselves for being FBS for as long as they are there. (see the boards mentioned in the previous posts)

Last paragraph: It's all about perception. Just imagine if the G5 and the top tier of FCS are lumped together. And in some markets, college football isn't even an option to watch to people living there (e.g. NYC, and to some extent, Chicago.)

[WestCoastAggie]

Agreed. Stupid conference rules.

They need to allow all Agricultural Schools and their fans to have cowbells at games.

[Thundar]

The scores were easier to find? Click NCAA scoreboard, choose conference.

Lol....exactly....I can find every score from d3 to FBS in the same amount of time..maybe I'm just some radical genius of the Internet though. If my school goes FBS just so the fans can find scores easier we have issues..but also if their tv coverage is so much greater why would you need to go to espn.Com for the score? I assume he watched it.

But hey I have an app on my phone that gets me score updates for any team in the country...he should load it

[BisonFan02]

They need to allow all Agricultural Schools and their fans to have cowbells at games.

19k cowbells in the Fargodome wouldn't be a good idea... xlolx

[bkrownd]

They need to allow all Agricultural Schools and their fans to have cowbells at games.

Aggies of the world UNITE! You have nothing to lose except your COWBELL!

http://scua.library.umass.edu/images/youmass/football_1901.jpg

[FUBeAR]

Just don't know what it is about those bellhops that give us problems.

I do. They play REALLY hard. Something that you see almost all good teams in the FCS doing. You also see it from the Service Academies every game in the FBS. You see it from the Top 75% of the P5 Teams...and you see it from the Top 10% (maybe) of the G5 teams. The rest, often, appear to be going thru the motions, playing on Tuesday nights in front of mostly concrete 'fans.' Half the players are JUCO transfers and will only be 'renting' XYZ's uniform for 1 or 2 seasons. The Coaches are spending more time calculating the next plastic pony they want to grab on the carousel than they are developing their programs and their young men. The reason, I think, FCS programs, like GaSou and Appy go into G5 play and whip butts is that their talent level is fairly close, but they haven't forgotten how to play REALLY hard, like they had to do to compete in their FCS Conferences. They will forget soon though - a fish grows to the size of his tank and water seeks its level. Their fans won't notice it, really, because they'll still be competing against a bunch of other mediocre teams going thru the motions, including the post-season reward of playing another mediocre team in a lackluster no-name bowl game and going thru the motions with them in really crazy uniforms. Those fans are the same ones who will be on message boards in the future...talking about lower division teams not winning a game in their higher-level league and being shocked when they lose to that approximately equally-talented team that just plays harder...until they also don't...next Tuesday.

[caribbeanhen]

Just remember, FCS is part of the NCAA which in turn is basically controlled by the P5. They'll look after themselves and pretend to sometimes be egalitarian when it suits them politically.

Now an idea we could steal from football in the UK, relegation. If your team plays poorly and ends up at the bottom of the top tier, you move down a tier and play by that tier's rules. If you are in a lower tier and just crush it, you move up a tier. Now can you imagine if an SEC school really tanked then had to go down to FCS and play under FCS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships limitations? Conversely, a NDSU would move up and get to play using FBS budgets, revenue sharing and scholarships.

Yep, FCS has become to narrow, it kind of reminds me of the King Novel "The Stand" Where all the good teams died off due to panademic virus and the few survivors that were left migrated to to the mid-west, therefore nobody cared less.

[Sader87]

I do. They play REALLY hard. Something that you see almost all good teams in the FCS doing. You also see it from the Service Academies every game in the FBS. You see it from the Top 75% of the P5 Teams...and you see it from the Top 10% (maybe) of the G5 teams. The rest, often, appear to be going thru the motions, playing on Tuesday nights in front of mostly concrete 'fans.' Half the players are JUCO transfers and will only be 'renting' XYZ's uniform for 1 or 2 seasons. The Coaches are spending more time calculating the next plastic pony they want to grab on the carousel than they are developing their programs and their young men. The reason, I think, FCS programs, like GaSou and Appy go into G5 play and whip butts is that their talent level is fairly close, but they haven't forgotten how to play REALLY hard, like they had to do to compete in their FCS Conferences. They will forget soon though - a fish grows to the size of his tank and water seeks its level. Their fans won't notice it, really, because they'll still be competing against a bunch of other mediocre teams going thru the motions, including the post-season reward of playing another mediocre team in a lackluster no-name bowl game and going thru the motions with them in really crazy uniforms. Those fans are the same ones who will be on message boards in the future...talking about lower division teams not winning a game in their higher-level league and being shocked when they lose to that approximately equally-talented team that just plays harder...until they also don't...next Tuesday.

Interesting post and I do think you've hit on something here. Not that I think every team/player on many G5 teams sort of "mails in it" every Saturday (Tuesday?), but it must be difficult to ramp it up often when you are playing under the circumstances you listed FUBear. It will be interesting to see where programs like App St and GA Southern are in a few seasons.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Not every school has the potential but App and GS are following the East Carolina model. ECU averages over 40k for football and has a strong following. They, nor we, will ever compete with the flagships for state dollars, endowments, etc. We can carve out a nice niche market and compete on the field.

I'm not sure what the OP's point was in trying to tell FCS what it needs. FCS will do just fine for most schools, but there are still a few who might be better off financially in FBS. I think the Dakota schools will eventually move as will regionals like Coastal, Chatty, EKU, Mizzou St, and Jax St

Back in the 90s a proposal was voted down to create 3 official subclassifications in D1 with basically the P5's and 2 championship tiers. We have that as a defacto reality now with the G5 "championship" being a New Years Day Bowl and the Lion's share of payout money.

NDSU and Montana and Delaware are in FCS because of state population, but the average FCS school is not a peer. Same for New England schools.

[caribbeanhen]

NDSU and Montana and Delaware are in FCS because of state population

I did not know that

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Aggies of the world UNITE! You have nothing to lose except your COWBELL!

http://scua.library.umass.edu/images/youmass/football_1901.jpg

Did someone say Aggies?

http://ndsuspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/1922.jpg

[superman7515]

I did not know that

North Dakota State - 2 hour radius = population of < 500,000
Montana - 2 hour radius = population of < 500,000
Delaware - 2 hour radius = population > 40 million

Clearly not enough people here to support that.

[ElCid]

NDSU and Montana and Delaware are in FCS because of state population, but the average FCS school is not a peer. Same for New England schools.

Like Wyoming? Just kidding. They suck anyway.

The bottom 10 states for population are Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, Dakotas, Delaware, Montana, RI, NH, and Maine. And what do they "mostly" in common? A bunch of FCS teams and 1 FBS.

[344Johnson]

I say this with respect to Georgia Southern- Sun Belt is an absolute **** league. It gets a boost from playing P5 teams, IMO it is no better than the 3rd-5th place FCS league. At that point any top FCS team should dominate. App State went from 4-8 to 7-5, GoSu went from 7-4 to 9-3. That to me does not signify an increase in competition. Without ASU and GoSu the Sun Belt is even worst. I don't understand what all this gloating is about.

You are aware that teams can improve from year to year right?

[centennial]

You are aware that teams can improve from year to year right?
Yes. When Sun Belt proves that it can produce teams that are at the top of G5. As of now they and the MAC east are FCS conferences with more scholarships.

[UNHWildcat18]

One thing I will say is pioneer league needs to GTFO out of playoffs and the fcs. Drop to d2 or 3 whatever will accept you. Every conference should be at 63 scholarships

[bkrownd]

Like Wyoming? Just kidding. They suck anyway.

The bottom 10 states for population are Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, Dakotas, Delaware, Montana, RI, NH, and Maine. And what do they "mostly" in common? A bunch of FCS teams and 1 FBS.

What they have in common is low marketing potential. It's all about the $$$ these days. Wyoming fluctuates between good and not so good, but any coach with success there will probably move on to a higher paycheck elsewhere. Delaware and New England might be high population areas, but those areas are also highly fragmented and public schools poorly supported.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

NDSU definitely has the money and support and I don't see anyone in FCS coming close. I get the Montana/Montana State thing, but I see Montana as superior to several G5's out West

[FargoBison]

One thing I will say is pioneer league needs to GTFO out of playoffs and the fcs. Drop to d2 or 3 whatever will accept you. Every conference should be at 63 scholarships

Watch out, you'll anger the deluded PFL fans that think they deserve a bid. Of course getting drilled by two mediocre playoff opponents says otherwise.

Of course some say it is good for the FCS to give them a bid but I completely disagree, nobody wants to watch the garbage that was the Montana-USD game. It is the kind of game that helps nobody in the long run.

[superman7515]

Delaware and New England might be high population areas, but those areas are also highly fragmented and public schools poorly supported.

xconfusedx

Delaware has the 10th highest spending on public schools in the nation.

Some of the states that are higher? New England states like New York (#1), Connecticut (#4), Vermont (#5), Massachusetts (#7), and Rhode Island (#8)...

[bkrownd]

I'm talking about support for the "flagship" as an leading institution and standard-bearer for the state, not about distributed money for all public schools put together.

[Go...gate]

What the FCS needs is every conference to willingly participate in the FCS playoffs. If you had an FCS playoffs with Harvard, Grambling and FAMU as well as the NDSUs, etc, you'd have a truly nationwide postseason that would be compelling TV with a diversity of different schools. With all those high-value TV properties participating, ESPN might be more tempted to televise ALL the rounds.

Yes. xthumbsupx

[RootinFerDukes]

One thing I will say is pioneer league needs to GTFO out of playoffs and the fcs. Drop to d2 or 3 whatever will accept you. Every conference should be at 63 scholarships
I believe the NEC is at 30 something scholarships. I'm not sure if the Patriot is also below 63. I do agree though. Get to the same scholarship levels as the top teams in the subdivision or drop down a level. The non-scholarship pioneer teams are just glorified D3 schools with a D1 label.

[Go...gate]

In response to the financial question, I can report that donations, sponsorships, media contracts, and season ticket sales are all UP greater than expected. It remains to be seen how well that will be sustained.

I loved IAA football because of the intimate atmospheres and true student-athlete participation. I was frustrated with trying to sell our program in UGA's backyard constantly explaining to people that we were not D2!

Marketing and growth are the only benefits of the FBS and it wouldn't apply to every school. I think NDSU, Montana, JMU could benefit and possibly Delaware. Jax St, Chattanooga, Coastal Carolina, Eastern My, and Mizzou St run the risk of losing market share to the regional FBS in their footprint.

Unfortunately, College Football to the average fan is all about perception and only folks on boards like this truly know how little separation exists on the field between the bottom 80-90 of FBS and the top 30-40 of FCS. The fact remains that depending upon your geographical market, perception counts a lot.

Still the best thing about I-AA/FCS, IMO.

[Go...gate]

I believe the NEC is at 30 something scholarships. I'm not sure if the Patriot is also below 63. I do agree though. Get to the same scholarship levels as the top teams in the subdivision or drop down a level. The non-scholarship pioneer teams are just glorified D3 schools with a D1 label.

NEC is at a max of 40, I believe.

Patriot League is at a max of 60 for this season.

However, neither conference has scholarship "minimums".

So that is the answer? Just throw us out? What a lot of hogwash.

[RootinFerDukes]

Still the best thing about I-AA/FCS, IMO.
Yes. I've learned that FCS fans are real college football fans. No walmart, fairweather BS. People that just enjoy good games and no nonsense.

[DFW HOYA]

I believe the NEC is at 30 something scholarships. I'm not sure if the Patriot is also below 63. I do agree though. Get to the same scholarship levels as the top teams in the subdivision or drop down a level. The non-scholarship pioneer teams are just glorified D3 schools with a D1 label.

NEC is 40. For the Patriot League:

60- Fordham
45- Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh (All of these at 60 in 2016)
0- Georgetown

[UNHWildcat18]

I believe the NEC is at 30 something scholarships. I'm not sure if the Patriot is also below 63. I do agree though. Get to the same scholarship levels as the top teams in the subdivision or drop down a level. The non-scholarship pioneer teams are just glorified D3 schools with a D1 label.

Yes the NEC needs to stop dicking around too, their teams arent going anywhere fast at 40 schollies vs all of the 63 level. NEC needs to rise to 63 and pioneer needs to leave. PL at 60 I guess thats okay I have no idea why the people who came up with that couldn't fathom just adding the other 3...

[FargoBison]

The NEC and especially Patriot are nothing like the PFL. I actually think both are moving in a really great direction. The NEC has used its playoff bid to strengthen it's teams and as a result has been competitive and of course the Patriot has moved towards 60 scholarships. G-Town of course being the main exception.

The PFL will never be competitive as long as the conference wants to play by DIII rules. There is really zero point for them having an autobid if they don't even want to be competitive.

[superman7515]

I'm talking about support for the "flagship" as an leading institution and standard-bearer for the state, not about distributed money for all public schools put together.

There's only Delaware State and Delaware Tech. UD, as they are very fond of reminding the lawmakers every time they threaten to make UD open up records and be subject to FOIA, is privately chartered.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The NEC and especially Patriot are nothing like the PFL. I actually think both are moving in a really great direction. The NEC has used its playoff bid to strengthen it's teams and as a result has been competitive and of course the Patriot has moved towards 60 scholarships. G-Town of course being the main exception.

The PFL will never be competitive as long as the conference wants to play by DIII rules. There is really zero point for them having an autobid if they don't even want to be competitive.

Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh have all excelled at a very high level at the FCS/1AA level. Colgate is one of very few schools with two Payton* Award winners. Holy Cross had one of the greatest runs in 1AA history from the mid 80's until the early 90's. Lehigh has been one of the winningest programs in 1AA/FCS since the late 70's. They also waged war with Delaware for years for Eastern Supremacy.

Over the last 15 years Fordham has had nationally relevant teams. Lafayette has a couple legit Top 15-20 teams in the mid-00's but have otherwise grossly underachieved. Bucknell has historically been a bball school. Still, the Bison have been respectable from time to time.

IMO, the PL needs to get back to how it was in the late 90's, early 00's and raise that level ever so slightly. Outside of a few teams, Fordham '13, Lehigh '11 and Holy Cross '09 the league has produced little over the last decade.

[bonarae]

One thing I will say is pioneer league needs to GTFO out of playoffs and the fcs. Drop to d2 or 3 whatever will accept you. Every conference should be at 63 scholarships

Or otherwise play in the club level, or become independents. (to the PFL teams)


Watch out, you'll anger the deluded PFL fans that think they deserve a bid. Of course getting drilled by two mediocre playoff opponents says otherwise.

Of course some say it is good for the FCS to give them a bid but I completely disagree, nobody wants to watch the garbage that was the Montana-USD game. It is the kind of game that helps nobody in the long run.

To the full-scholarship fans who are the virtual majority here, it's quite fair in saying things like that about the PFL. Having a playoff bid improves the reputation of most conferences, like the NEC and Patriot, but really doesn't in the PFL. Looks like the PFL needs to be dissolved or be intervened by the NCAA in the long run.


The NEC and especially Patriot are nothing like the PFL. I actually think both are moving in a really great direction. The NEC has used its playoff bid to strengthen it's teams and as a result has been competitive and of course the Patriot has moved towards 60 scholarships. G-Town of course being the main exception.

The PFL will never be competitive as long as the conference wants to play by DIII rules. There is really zero point for them having an autobid if they don't even want to be competitive.

I agree 110%. I think Georgetown should consider dropping or become independent... the PFL, as I have said before, has to be: reformed, intervened by the NCAA, or dissolved.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh have all excelled at a very high level at the FCS/1AA level. Colgate is one of very few schools with two Payton* Award winners. Holy Cross had one of the greatest runs in 1AA history from the mid 80's until the early 90's. Lehigh has been one of the winningest programs in 1AA/FCS since the late 70's. They also waged war with Delaware for years for Eastern Supremacy.

Over the last 15 years Fordham has had nationally relevant teams. Lafayette has a couple legit Top 15-20 teams in the mid-00's but have otherwise grossly underachieved. Bucknell has historically been a bball school. Still, the Bison have been respectable from time to time.

IMO, the PL needs to get back to how it was in the late 90's, early 00's and raise that level ever so slightly. Outside of a few teams, Fordham '13, Lehigh '11 and Holy Cross '09 the league has produced little over the last decade.

Very well said.

[Go...gate]

Or otherwise play in the club level, or become independents. (to the PFL teams)



To the full-scholarship fans who are the virtual majority here, it's quite fair in saying things like that about the PFL. Having a playoff bid improves the reputation of most conferences, like the NEC and Patriot, but really doesn't in the PFL. Looks like the PFL needs to be dissolved or be intervened by the NCAA in the long run.



I agree 110%. I think Georgetown should consider dropping or become independent... the PFL, as I have said before, has to be: reformed, intervened by the NCAA, or dissolved.

Setting aside for a moment that I like Georgetown a great deal, GU's departure would leave Patriot football in a very precarious position. We simply could not lose anyone else. Which, of course, raises the eternal question - what could, or would, the Patriot do to strengthen its numbers?

[Herder]

He makes some good points, there are programs that drag the FCS down. Schools that pile on the FBS body bag games and get their ass kicked every time. Of course every level has that, sadly in the FCS world those are programs that get exposure because they are playing big name opponents and most often multiple big programs in a season.

Honestly we also have programs that are scheduling games against teams that aren't even real schools. I am not sure a program can get any more pathetic than that.

In reality DI needs three levels of football...I know there are three levels now but the levels are not really setup correctly, too much overlap between G5 and upper FCS.

Level 1...Do whatever the hell you want more or less. Spend millions upon millions....The current P5.

Level 2...A level about high level quality football but the programs just don't have the ability or TV money to do whatever it takes. There is actually a rather large group of programs in this level and if they were all in the same group could produce a very compelling playoff. There would probably be enough solid programs to generate solid exposure for this tier.

Level 3...Budget programs(schools that want a team just to say that they have one), wannabe DIII programs and those that just want to do their own thing(Ivy, SWAC and MEAC). I guess this tier could have a small playoff if they wanted.

Sorry, but you just listed the ivy and the swac, then you said they could have a playoff? Are you suggesting that they would want one if they could actually win games?

[Herder]

Watch out, you'll anger the deluded PFL fans that think they deserve a bid. Of course getting drilled by two mediocre playoff opponents says otherwise.

Of course some say it is good for the FCS to give them a bid but I completely disagree, nobody wants to watch the garbage that was the Montana-USD game. It is the kind of game that helps nobody in the long run.

I don't have a problem with the pfl having a bid. It's Good for their league. That's better than if the FCS excluded them like what happens in the FBS. Their league has my respect more than the ivy or the swac that don't have the stones to stand up and play.

[FargoBison]

Sorry, but you just listed the ivy and the swac, then you said they could have a playoff? Are you suggesting that they would want one if they could actually win games?

No the PFL could have a playoff with say the NEC or perhaps some new budget conference would be created. This would give those schools an outlet to have a playoff against their peers and not full scholarship programs that they share nothing in common with. The SWAC, MEAC and Ivy would just continue to do their own thing.

[FargoBison]

I don't have a problem with the pfl having a bid. It's Good for their league. That's better than if the FCS excluded them like what happens in the FBS. Their league has my respect more than the ivy or the swac that don't have the stones to stand up and play.

It isn't good for their league or the FCS since they have no desire to be competitive. They aren't at all like the NEC, they have no desire to compete. They just want to be a DIII league which is fine but that is not what the FCS should be about and it just leads to them getting their heads kicked in come playoff time. A DIII program will never be competitive against NDSU or Montana or Delaware or UNI, they will be destroyed. They need to either become more like the NEC or Patriot or be kicked out.

The biggest program the FCS has is the PFL, Ivy, SWAC and now MEAC. They don't share anything in common with the FCS or they don't want to be a part of it. They should all be cast off into their own group.

[DFW HOYA]

Post-season participation shouldn't be a requirement for any school. If they want to play and are able to, great, but there's a reason it's called the post-season.

[BisonFan02]

Post-season participation shouldn't be a requirement for any school. If they want to play and are able to, great, but there's a reason it's called the post-season.

Football CHAMPIONSHIP Subdivision.....not intramural football league.

[FargoBison]

Post-season participation shouldn't be a requirement for any school. If they want to play and are able to, great, but there's a reason it's called the post-season.

In every sport but football every school competes in postseason at the DI level.

I don't have a problem with it but I just want those schools out of the FCS. I want the FCS to be about the middle initial in its name...CHAMPIONSHIP.

[bonarae]

No the PFL could have a playoff with say the NEC or perhaps some new budget conference would be created. This would give those schools an outlet to have a playoff against their peers and not full scholarship programs that they share nothing in common with. The SWAC, MEAC and Ivy would just continue to do their own thing.

Hmm, I just don't think it's feasible at this point. Until the Dayton Rule is repealed, the bloodshed and taunting of the PFL continue... xnonono2x


The biggest program the FCS has is the PFL, Ivy, SWAC and now MEAC. They don't share anything in common with the FCS or they don't want to be a part of it. They should all be cast off into their own group.

Yes, the biggest headache of the FCS is how the four conferences stay out of the postseason and/or how to measure of competitiveness these conferences have... see my petition proposal thread here for a possible solution.


Post-season participation shouldn't be a requirement for any school. If they want to play and are able to, great, but there's a reason it's called the post-season.

But how come only the FBS and D-II allow all of their conferences to participate in their postseasons? In D-III, the NESCAC doesn't even play OOC games. In the FCS alone, there are different reasons three conferences stay out of the Road to Frisco. Shouldn't we coerce them to participate in order for the FCS to salvage its reputation?

[DFW HOYA]

Championship participation should certainly be encouraged but not absolutely required. Notre Dame didn't play in a bowl game for 45 years and no one tried to kick them out of major college football. If BYU finished #1 in the computer polls and the playoff was on a Sunday, they wouldn't attend.

The PFL does complete in the playoffs, of course. What we're talking about is the Ivy ban and the retreat of the SWAC.

[superman7515]

For what it's worth, the SWAC doesn't disavow the playoffs. While their champion has historically gone to a post-season bowl game, whether of their own invention in the SWAC Championship Game, or of outside invention like the Heritage Bowl of the 90's, they have always said that non-champions are available for at-large selection. Several times in the Heritage Bowl era, the champion went to the playoffs instead of the bowl game. While the level of play certainly makes it more difficult to get an at-large bid for the SWAC, the fact remains they haven't turned the playoffs down, because they haven't been offered. It will be interesting to see what happens with the MEAC, there have been recent years where three MEAC teams have made the playoffs, and almost always two teams, so the possibility still exists for a MEAC team to be in the playoffs on an annual basis.

[Hammerhead]

The FCS needs ESPN to actually promote the FCS playoff games they broadcast and not put the championship game right after another live event. How many other NCAA championships have the opening plays pre-empted by another event that ran longer than scheduled?

[SDFS]

Did someone say Aggies?

http://ndsuspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/1922.jpg
Is it Bison or Bisons...... I have always been told it is Bison. But, it looks like that is wrong. Just looking for clarification.

[bkrownd]

In every sport but football every school competes in postseason at the DI level.

I don't have a problem with it but I just want those schools out of the FCS. I want the FCS to be about the middle initial in its name...CHAMPIONSHIP.

Go till your beets, noob. There's plenty of room for different interpretations on what the football season should be. I respect the traditions of the Ivies and HBCs, and it's nice to see people doing something different. Their staff and students are the only people whose opinions are important on such matters. You noobs have no place criticizing programs that have been in I-AA forever.

[SDFS]

NEC is 40. For the Patriot League:

60- Fordham
45- Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh (All of these at 60 in 2016)
0- Georgetown

Nice to see... Patriot League is building some depth. I will have to watch the games a little closer.

[UNHWildcat18]

Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh have all excelled at a very high level at the FCS/1AA level. Colgate is one of very few schools with two Payton* Award winners. Holy Cross had one of the greatest runs in 1AA history from the mid 80's until the early 90's. Lehigh has been one of the winningest programs in 1AA/FCS since the late 70's. They also waged war with Delaware for years for Eastern Supremacy.

Over the last 15 years Fordham has had nationally relevant teams. Lafayette has a couple legit Top 15-20 teams in the mid-00's but have otherwise grossly underachieved. Bucknell has historically been a bball school. Still, the Bison have been respectable from time to time.

IMO, the PL needs to get back to how it was in the late 90's, early 00's and raise that level ever so slightly. Outside of a few teams, Fordham '13, Lehigh '11 and Holy Cross '09 the league has produced little over the last decade.

I'll give you that you guys were in the spotlight for a while, I'm sure in 3 years after having 60 schollies the patriot will be doing much much better. NEC schools should go to 63 or go to d2, its four scholarships less and you can use the extra money in recruiting or facilities.

[FargoBison]

Go till your beets, noob. There's plenty of room for different interpretations on what the football season should be. I respect the traditions of the Ivies and HBCs, and it's nice to see people doing something different. Their staff and students are the only people whose opinions are important on such matters. You noobs have no place criticizing programs that have been in I-AA forever.

I don't really consider the Ivy League as being a part of the FCS and the same goes for the SWAC and I guess now the MEAC. I don't really care how new or old NDSU is to the FCS. That shouldn't matter, they don't want to be apart of the FCS and I will gladly give them what they want. For those that say you shouldn't put those teams in polls and whatever else I have seen the light, I am done ranking them.

[BisonFan02]

Go till your beets, noob. There's plenty of room for different interpretations on what the football season should be. I respect the traditions of the Ivies and HBCs, and it's nice to see people doing something different. Their staff and students are the only people whose opinions are important on such matters. You noobs have no place criticizing programs that have been in I-AA forever.

Bonus points if you can name the teams in this picture....

https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6108/6329644229_daa0c75b5f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/aDk5H4)

[Hammerhead]

Is that NDSU and Grambling (now Grambling State)?


Bonus points if you can name the teams in this picture....

https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6108/6329644229_daa0c75b5f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/aDk5H4)

[BisonFan02]

Is that NDSU and Grambling (now Grambling State)?

1965 Pecan Bowl....NDSU and Grambling College. NDSU won 20-7 for their first College Division national championship. I was just checking to see if the resident "I-AA" historian realized that NDSU isn't exactly a bunch of "noobs".... xlolx

[Sader87]

The Ivy League, whether they play in the FCS playoffs or not, are probably the most visible/recognizable FCS schools/programs in the country.

The FCS playoffs are very ovah-rated imo....your mileage may vary.

[32counter]

The Ivy League, whether they play in the FCS playoffs or not, are probably the most visible/recognizable FCS schools/programs in the country.

The FCS playoffs are very ovah-rated imo....your mileage may vary.

Harvard and Yale recognizable in FCS,for sure.Not so much for anyone else.

[bonarae]

The Ivy League, whether they play in the FCS playoffs or not, are probably the most visible/recognizable FCS schools/programs in the country.

The FCS playoffs are very ovah-rated imo....your mileage may vary.

Overrated? By how much? How about the playoffs of the lower NCAA divisions? Doesn't D-III feature practically the same opponents in the championship game?


I don't really consider the Ivy League as being a part of the FCS and the same goes for the SWAC and I guess now the MEAC. I don't really care how new or old NDSU is to the FCS. That shouldn't matter, they don't want to be apart of the FCS and I will gladly give them what they want. For those that say you shouldn't put those teams in polls and whatever else I have seen the light, I am done ranking them.

As an Ivy fan now dual-rooting for a rejoining FCS team, it's just unfair to treat us separately. However, I respect the opinions of the playoff-participating teams and I would still rank the Ivies. Just take note that just because a team in a playoff-participating conference is in the Top 25 MAY not be selected by the Selection Committee. But I still want the "independent" division to take form in football (see my petition thread).


In every sport but football every school competes in postseason at the DI level.

I don't have a problem with it but I just want those schools out of the FCS. I want the FCS to be about the middle initial in its name...CHAMPIONSHIP.

That's how fans of other schools taunt at the Ivies and HBCUs. Do you want an "independent" division comprising of just us? Sure, but the reputation of us may nosedive significantly. xbawlingx


Go till your beets, noob. There's plenty of room for different interpretations on what the football season should be. I respect the traditions of the Ivies and HBCs, and it's nice to see people doing something different. Their staff and students are the only people whose opinions are important on such matters. You noobs have no place criticizing programs that have been in I-AA forever.

But how come those fans of newer FCS teams taunt about the old-school FCS (now-ex-FCS) now languishing in the G5, the HBCUs and the non-scholarship teams? I don't know why they do it that way. But things are different today than they were before.

[bkrownd]

1965 Pecan Bowl....NDSU and Grambling College. NDSU won 20-7 for their first College Division national championship. I was just checking to see if the resident "I-AA" historian realized that NDSU isn't exactly a bunch of "noobs".... xlolx

I don't give a hoot about your team's history. The programs you're proposing to throw out have been in the division far longer than yours.

[superman7515]

Harvard and Yale recognizable in FCS,for sure.Not so much for anyone else.

You seriously think that only FCS fans have heard of Harvard and Yale?

[RootinFerDukes]

In every sport but football every school competes in postseason at the DI level.

I don't have a problem with it but I just want those schools out of the FCS. I want the FCS to be about the middle initial in its name...CHAMPIONSHIP.

The Ivy League, swac and meac all voluntarily remove themselves from playoff participation.
The swac and meac know they can't compete and make more money from their ESPN bowl game. The Ivy League claims they don't want students out of class for an entire postseason. Some say they are trying to act like they're still a part of their major college football days by not wanting to win a "second tier" championship.

[superman7515]

The Ivy League, swac and meac all voluntarily remove themselves from playoff participation.

The SWAC and MEAC do not remove themselves from playoff participation. They do not have an automatic qualifier, starting this season, but nothing precludes other teams in the conferences from participating.

[DFW HOYA]

Some say they are trying to act like they're still a part of their major college football days by not wanting to win a "second tier" championship.

Would you rather end your season with a win before 50,000 at Yale, or a week later in a loss before 1,941 in Terre Haute, Indiana?

An argument can be made for the latter, but as long as H-Y oppose the playoffs, it won't happen.

[RootinFerDukes]

Would you rather end your season with a win before 50,000 at Yale, or a week later in a loss before 1,941 in Terre Haute, Indiana?

Well I'm not a Harvard fan, so I can't really say. "The game" is happening regardless, so it's a moot point.
I like to see my team play as much as possible, so I'd probably want the playoffs too.
Ps I have no clue who plays in that Indiana town, but chances are that a ranked Harvard team would beat them. Likewise, i'd imagine any Ivy League team would outbid a school that can only bring 1900 (on paper) to a game.

[Go...gate]

Harvard and Yale recognizable in FCS,for sure.Not so much for anyone else.

Are you kidding?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Would you rather end your season with a win before 50,000 at Yale, or a week later in a loss before 1,941 in Terre Haute, Indiana?

An argument can be made for the latter, but as long as H-Y oppose the playoffs, it won't happen.

I don't believe the Ivies would lose too many bidding wars. Some of the better IL teams draw reasonably well by FCS standards. Yale is almost always in the Top 10-15 in average attendance. An early round playoff game against a PL school or Delaware, UNH, W&M, Richmond etc would certainly create a ripple. The Northeast media almost always jumps on Ivy League athletics if there's a reason to. A Harvard-UNH second round game at Harvard Stadium would draw 15-20k and stir-up some attention on NESN....

It's really a shame they don't participate in the playoffs. The Ivies carry a lot of weight, especially in Philly/NYC/Boston and a certain level of respect from casual sports fans. The Ivy League team almost always gets a little more air time during March Madness going back to Penn in 1979. The IL could really help the FCS playoffs by deciding to join in. There's no doubt they would be competitive and change a lot of people's opinions who don't get a chance to watch them play.

A Harvard-EWU Semifinal would create a lot more buzz than a EWU-UNI Semi. Harvard playing on ESPN2 in a national semifinal is USA Today worthy, Wall Street Journal, Sports Center worthy....

[FargoBison]

The SWAC and MEAC do not remove themselves from playoff participation. They do not have an automatic qualifier, starting this season, but nothing precludes other teams in the conferences from participating.

Well Grambling and Southern remove themselves by choosing to play a regular season game during the playoffs.

[32counter]

Are you kidding?

OK.Include Columbia and Brown.Sorry for the oversight.

[GAD]

Well Grambling and Southern remove themselves by choosing to play a regular season game during the playoffs.
No the NCAA chose to start the playoffs on the weekend we played our biggest game

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Great discussion in this thread.

Some observations:
1. I always find arguing that some Championship Subdivision conference should be ineligible for the tournament odd. Division I requires that these schools play here. If the schools comply with the Division's rules, they should have access to all of its benefits, including the tournament.

2. Counting the Ivy, PFL, MEAC and SWAC schools allows for the size of the tournament. They are nearly 1/3 of the subdivision. You get to have your party, whether or not those schools choose to opt out.

3. 60 or 63... Do you know what it took to Patriot League to get there? When looking at the private schools in the subdivision, consider that their economics are fundamentally different. How many private schools are in the FBS? You can count them in a breath. It is challenging. When you add in the costs of the Title IX matching scholarships, these FCS schools, all smaller than the public institutions (except Liberty), have made a commitment to football. Even in the PFL and Ivy League, those football players receive plenty of financial assistance. I have no clue as to why 60 not 63. Because it is divisible by 4, for the phase-in?

To the rest of the FCS-- As has been noted elsewhere on the board, the Ivies do not need talent scholarships to recruit and compete. The Patriot League knows this well, but all of the schools in the Northeast can talk. Their fiscal standing allows for generous general financial aid to all incoming students and their reputations carry weight. Maybe they discontinued the scheduling arrangement with the PL anticipating a shift in the balance, but I think it is more high-brow, blowhard philosophical posturing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

more high-brow, blowhard philosophical posturing

This sentence structure also is worth the rep points.

[AmsterBison]

Is it Bison or Bisons...... I have always been told it is Bison. But, it looks like that is wrong. Just looking for clarification.

You mean that the University of North Dakota doesn't have a committee looking into this issue already? Ah, but I suppose you want an answer before the Tricentennial.

For the University of Manitoba, the plural is Bisons. For the North Dakota State University and the English language , the plural is Bison. And, yes, the "z" sound is in the dictionary too.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

You mean that the University of North Dakota doesn't have a committee looking into this issue already? Ah, but I suppose you want an answer before the Tricentennial.

For the University of Manitoba, the plural is Bisons. For the North Dakota State University and the English language , the plural is Bison. And, yes, the "z" sound is in the dictionary too.

While I was at Bucknell the SID, Brad Tufts, was conducting a campaign to shift from 'Bisons' to 'Bison'. He had a long and illustrious career in Lewisburg and was successful, over time, in burying that final 's'. I notice that my spell check flagged that 'Bisons' spelling. I had no idea that Brad was that influential.

[SDFS]

You mean that the University of North Dakota doesn't have a committee looking into this issue already? Ah, but I suppose you want an answer before the Tricentennial.

For the University of Manitoba, the plural is Bisons. For the North Dakota State University and the English language , the plural is Bison. And, yes, the "z" sound is in the dictionary too.

Thanks Bison it is... FYI - the old NDSU jerseys in the picture had "Bisons", which lead to my question. I suppose asking if it is Gold or Yellow is going too far?!?!? Or should I take it the committee.. actually, I should check with the NCAA to see if the term "Gold" or "Yellow" is offensive to anyone.. I am sure some tribe somewhere has an opinion.

[AmsterBison]

While I was at Bucknell the SID, Brad Tufts, was conducting a campaign to shift from 'Bisons' to 'Bison'. He had a long and illustrious career in Lewisburg and was successful, over time, in burying that final 's'. I notice that my spell check flagged that 'Bisons' spelling. I had no idea that Brad was that influential.

Ha! You got me curious.

As most people know, before dictionaries and grammar Nazis, the English language was in constant state of change, and I'm not talking just a new word here or there.

Thanks to the wonders of the interwebs, I was able to look at a dictionary called "Universal Dictionary of the English Language" from 1897 which lists the plural as "bisons" or "bisontes" (for the Latin lovers, I guess.)

Bottom line: When Bucknell adopted the bison nickname and when NDSU had "bisons" on their jerseys, both plural forms were acceptable. If there's an etymologist in the house, maybe they can tell us when the switch in usage occurred.

[kdinva]

No the NCAA chose to start the playoffs on the weekend we played our biggest game

......or, the vast majority of the current FCS teams usually ended their regular season the Saturday before Thanksgiving....

[superman7515]

......or, the vast majority of the current FCS teams usually ended their regular season the Saturday before Thanksgiving....

Looking past the "usually" in there, it doesn't matter if everyone in the universe but them did or not, they had been playing that game, on that weekend, before the NCAA created the 1AA division.

[2ram]

What did not happen:
We didn't get on Sports Center or the like much more than before and we were still an afterthought for most the sports news cycle. Our near upsets against NCSU and GT might have actually gotten more coverage if we were an FCS team. The storyline of the new kid on the block rising up to the challenge was almost completely ignored by the national media, which simultaneously did and did not surprise me. If you aren't P5, you're fighting for the honorable mention spot. I just thought we had earned that mention.

What FCS needs in order to improve:
I'll just put what I expect to be my most controversial point right here. Some programs need to be kicked out of the FCS. The accomplishments of the great programs like Montana and even NDSU get weighed down when they're lumped in with the dreadful teams that lose every game and draw fewer fans than bingo night. The gap between the top and the bottom is too drastic for people to take the accomplishments of the successful teams seriously. The FCS needs to hold itself to a higher standard and enforce some sort of scholarship and attendance minimums. I really wish the FBS actually followed their attendance requirements because the same thing happens with G5 programs that get lumped in with Western Michigan and Ball State. Another point of high importance is exposure. FCS teams are simply too difficult to follow because of the lack of TV and web coverage. There needs to be more of an effort to get the product in front of people and make it easy to keep up with a team. That's the bulk of what I believe needs to happen to get people to respect and enjoy the FCS as much I always did.


what the FBS really needs in order to help you guys out, is to reduce the regular season to 11 games, possibly even get rid of conference championship games, and increase the playoff field like FCS. if ball state wants to pay to play in a league they can't compete in, let them.

what the FCS really needs is as you have suggested, more homogeneity. the pretenders need to let go or be shown the door. i believe that will increase interest, respect & coverage of the FCS, making it easier to be a fan.

[bkrownd]

What the FCS needs is for people to just go enjoy traditional autumn football games on their local campus and stop worrying about corruptive television money, whose got the biggest schlong uh attendance numbers, and immature whining about "respect". The nice thing about I-AA was always the smaller more campus-oriented atmosphere and that the worthless bandwagon and nfl fans didn't know it existed.

[Catsfan90]

What the FCS needs is for people to just go enjoy traditional autumn football games on their local campus and stop worrying about corruptive television money, whose got the biggest schlong uh attendance numbers, and immature whining about "respect". The nice thing about I-AA was always the smaller more campus-oriented atmosphere and that the worthless bandwagon and nfl fans didn't know it existed.

That's why I am a fan. If you are a fan of a huge FBS school you are 1 in a million. Being a fan of FCS you know the tean and administration actually cares about your support.

[Bisonoline]

What the FCS needs is for people to just go enjoy traditional autumn football games on their local campus and stop worrying about corruptive television money, whose got the biggest schlong uh attendance numbers, and immature whining about "respect". The nice thing about I-AA was always the smaller more campus-oriented atmosphere and that the worthless bandwagon and nfl fans didn't know it existed.

Some very good points. Some points of which a small number of our fans just don't understand.

[2ram]

What the FCS needs is for people to just go enjoy traditional autumn football games on their local campus and stop worrying about corruptive television money, whose got the biggest schlong uh attendance numbers, and immature whining about "respect". The nice thing about I-AA was always the smaller more campus-oriented atmosphere and that the worthless bandwagon and nfl fans didn't know it existed.

i agree about the campus oriented experience. many FCS fans would like to see their teams in the FBS, which for most won't ever happen, and would destroy the very thing best thing about the FCS: the intimate settings & atmosphere, the distance from the $ chase the FBS has become.

having said that, i strongly disagree with the rest of your post. winning matters, pride still matters. respect matters. competition matters. good luck getting anyone to glance at your school/program if no one respects it and/or it isn't competitive. and gl with getting anyone to be interested in it. that kind of thinking leads to programs shutting down.

[KPSUL]

Great discussion in this thread.
How many private schools are in the FBS? You can count them in a breath.
T.

Southern Methodist, Temple, Tulsa, Boston College, Duke, Miami, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, Baylor, Texas Christian, Northwestern,Rice, Brigham Young, Stanford, Southern Cal, and Vanderbilt. Way too many for a State University graduate to count in a single breath, but less than I thought.

[Go...gate]

i agree about the campus oriented experience. many FCS fans would like to see their teams in the FBS, which for most won't ever happen, and would destroy the very thing best thing about the FCS: the intimate settings & atmosphere, the distance from the $ chase the FBS has become.

having said that, i strongly disagree with the rest of your post. winning matters, pride still matters. respect matters. competition matters. good luck getting anyone to glance at your school/program if no one respects it and/or it isn't competitive. and gl with getting anyone to be interested in it. that kind of thinking leads to programs shutting down.

Amen.

[superman7515]

Being a fan of FCS you know the tean and administration actually cares about your support.

I'll take that bet... Haha

[superman7515]

http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2015/02/04/pages/5156/index.xml


Football is the only sport in which Ivy teams cannot play in the NCAA playoffs. Would you like to see the league lift the postseason ban?

Ultimately, yes, I’d like to see the kids be able to have a postseason competition. They work so hard during the season that it would be great to have that next opportunity. There are certainly challenges with it — we want to balance the time commitment and the strain on the body. But to me, instinctually, it would be nice to have that next opportunity.

[clenz]

I don't know if this has been said...but...

What the FCS needs is programs/fans who thought they were too good for the FCS coming back in here and trying to tell the FCS what they need. If we want to be even more obscure as a subdivision we will certainly ask for the Sun Belt's help....that's one thing they know how to do well

[caribbeanhen]

What the FCS needs is for people to just go enjoy traditional autumn football games on their local campus and stop worrying about corruptive television money, whose got the biggest schlong uh attendance numbers, and immature whining about "respect". The nice thing about I-AA was always the smaller more campus-oriented atmosphere and that the worthless bandwagon and nfl fans didn't know it existed.

I like that quote right there, NFL, What is the NFL anyway? I'm always the contrarian but can see lots of gals and guys getting all excited on Sundays at the local sports bar who know almost nothing about football, it's just the thing to do for alot of em..

[2ram]

http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2015/02/04/pages/5156/index.xml

"Football is the only sport in which Ivy teams cannot play in the NCAA playoffs. Would you like to see the league lift the postseason ban?

Ultimately, yes, I’d like to see the kids be able to have a postseason competition. They work so hard during the season that it would be great to have that next opportunity. There are certainly challenges with it — we want to balance the time commitment and the strain on the body. But to me, instinctually, it would be nice to have that next opportunity."


but the ivies do have a 'post-season game' it's the harvard-yale game, aka 'the game'.

unfortunately the whole 'the game' sham protects the legacy of just 2 schools, and everyone else falls in line to be associated with them.

princeton, et al should man up, leave those 2 selfish programs to pat themselves on the back until they fall over, offers scholarships and join the rest of the FCS.

[Panther88]

The SWAC and MEAC do not remove themselves from playoff participation. They do not have an automatic qualifier, starting this season, but nothing precludes other teams in the conferences from participating.

Keep typing it. Someday they'll get past their negative comprehension issue and actually accept the truth. smh

[bonarae]

but the ivies do have a 'post-season game' it's the harvard-yale game, aka 'the game'.

unfortunately the whole 'the game' sham protects the legacy of just 2 schools, and everyone else falls in line to be associated with them.

princeton, et al should man up, leave those 2 selfish programs to pat themselves on the back until they fall over, offers scholarships and join the rest of the FCS.

What if "The Game" would be marketed as just a regular game like UCLA-USC, Michigan-Ohio State, Cat-Griz, Chicago-Washington U, etc.? To get the Ivies to join the Road to Frisco, The Game's level should drop down to a mere ordinary regular season game just like the rest of the rivalry games do in all three divisions of football (including the 2 subdivisions).

Scholarships? Not so sure if the Presidents will agree, including FCOA if at all.


Keep typing it. Someday they'll get past their negative comprehension issue and actually accept the truth. smh

I sure hope the Ivies will follow too. xsmhx