Offense? Defense? Balance?

[BEAR]

I've seen it far too often. A team scores quickly to get ahead and leaves enough time on the clock for the opponent to score for the win.

Too much offense with with a bad defense and you can lose a few games you should have won.
SFA had a potent offense a few years ago. Quick passing game. Scored quickly too. But when the quick score failed the opponent marched up the field to take advantage.

Sammy had a really good team a few years ago too. Very balanced in the run and pass game. Something like 200 yards each. Didn't leave much for the other team. Clock eaters. Time the run game to do just that.

I've even seen teams with tough defenses and bad offenses lose several close games. Shame to see that.


Is it better to have a strong offense and an average defense OR a strong defense and average offense? Or is balance the key in both areas?

Optimal is strong in both but what is the best formula if you don't have the optimal formula?

[eiu1999]

2013 EIU had a great offense, horrible defense, had no chance against top teams.

[Herder]

Sorry to say it, but Haven't you been paying attention? See NDSU model.

Defense - dominant vs Run, good vs Pass, Low Point Totals
Offense - power Run game geared toward TOP
Offense - above average passing team, moving the chains efficiently at a high %
Sp Team - great punter and coverage teams

Sorry, but specific types of Offenses are needed to compliment a great defense. A quick strike, high powered passing team is not one of them. That style wears down a defense vs helping them.

EIU is a classic example of Offensive Style hurting your defense.

[Southern Bison]

Herder, you nailed it.

The Bison live by the principle that defense wins championships. A stout defense with a ground & pound offense will win over a quick-strike offense any day.

EWU is a classic example of how not to build a team to win championships.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[eiu1999]

Sorry to say it, but Haven't you been paying attention? See NDSU model.

Defense - dominant vs Run, good vs Pass, Low Point Totals
Offense - power Run game geared toward TOP
Offense - above average passing team, moving the chains efficiently at a high %
Sp Team - great punter and coverage teams

Sorry, but specific types of Offenses are needed to compliment a great defense. A quick strike, high powered passing team is not one of them. That style wears down a defense vs helping them.

EIU is a classic example of Offensive Style hurting your defense.


The EIU teams coached by Bob Spoo were closer to being that model.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I don't think the type of offense really matters. The two examples giving ( EIU and EWU ) have had excellent, potent offenses but below average defenses. I think it was a matter of having better balance in the defense. If they would have had a top-25 defense, they would have blown everyone out even more except when they would have run into a team with a very good defense.

Put a better defense on the field....period.

[SFA 93]

I would say an average to good offense with a QB that can manage the team and a dominating defense would do the trick for me.

The culture at SFA during the Harper era was as JC would put it, "We will just outscore them", when the defense struggles would ever come up in an interview or conversation. After the 0-11 season of 2007 Harper hired an up and coming OC Shannon Dawson out of Millsaps for the 2008 season. Dawson comes in and scrapes the current offense for a high flying passing offense with 5 wide outs and no TE. Even on 3rd and 1 we're going 5 wide empty backfield. Jacks go 4-8 that season and then 10-3 the next and 9-3 there after. Harper is labeled a coaching genius winning back to back SLC coach of the year awards. But this type of play had it limitations (as in the defense is on the field too long and you can't manage the clock if you are throwing the ball and not completing the pass causing the clock to stop) resulting in two early exits from the FCS playoffs going 1-2 those two seasons.

2009
L@SMU 23-31 (Jacks leading in the 4th until Moses throws pick)
W Texas College 92-0 (NAIA School, should have never been played)
W@Western Illinois 40-30
W North Dakota 65-31
W McNeese State 16-13
W@Central Arkansas 33-30
W Sam Houston State 42-3
L@Texas State 7-28
W Nicholls State 31-27
W@Southeastern Louisiana 41-10
W@Northwestern State 19-10
W Eastern Washington 44-33
L@Montana 0-51

2010
L@Texas A&M 7-48
W Albany 59-14
W@Northern Iowa 22-20
W Lamar 71-3
W@McNeese State 32-27
W Central Arkansas 30-7
W Sam Houston State 31-28
L Texas State 24-27 (Jacks blow 24-0 4th quarter lead; the curse of Texas State lives on)
W@Nicholls State 48-13
W Southeastern Louisiana 51-14
W Northwestern State 36-13
L Villanova 24-54

Shannon Dawson is hired by West Virginia the next season. (now the OC at Kentucky) Harper and the Jacks like a bad stock crash in the coming years 10-3;9-3;6-5;5-6;3-9 Harper is fired.

Conque now at the helm changing the culture with a more balanced attack (bringing the TE position back to SFA) with a focus on a strong defense with depth.

Just want an average to good offense with a QB to manage the game and run the clock with a dominating defense. Love seeing the defense get in the back field and cause havoc. (SFA lead the conference in TFL Conque's first season) Our defense front is the most talented and deepest I've ever seen, so I believe we are well on our way to that.

[IBleedYellow]

Herder, you nailed it.

The Bison live by the principle that defense wins championships. A stout defense with a ground & pound offense will win over a quick-strike offense any day.

EWU is a classic example of how not to build a team to win championships.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
NDSU intentionally puts their best athletes on defense quite a bit, it seems.

UNI does aswell. Minus the freak named David kickass Johnson.

[clenz]

NDSU intentionally puts their best athletes on defense quite a bit, it seems.

UNI does aswell. Minus the freak named David kickass Johnson.
Farley wanted him to play linebacker when he first got to campus but the first time he touched the ball on the first practice of his first day Farley knew he couldn't move a weapon like that.

A couple years ago we had a RB that was elite all state in high school at running back and would have been a HM all conference RB but was buried behind guys like DJ and Carlos Anderson so moved to LB and was damn good until a knee injury ended his career. LJ Fort who was DPOY at LB also played some running back at times and scored like 5 TD in his career at UNI.

Defense will always get to pick who they want at places like UNI and NDSU. It's why they will always be top 10-15 programs and should there be s falter it won't take long to recover because more emphasis will be put on defensive foundation

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[IBleedYellow]

Farley wanted him to play linebacker when he first got to campus but the first time he touched the ball on the first practice of his first day Farley knew he couldn't move a weapon like that.

A couple years ago we had a RB that was elite all state in high school at running back and would have been a HM all conference RB but was buried behind guys like DJ and Carlos Anderson so moved to LB and was damn good until a knee injury ended his career. LJ Fort who was DPOY at LB also played some running back at times and scored like 5 TD in his career at UNI.

Defense will always get to pick who they want at places like UNI and NDSU. It's why they will always be top 10-15 programs

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Exactly. Anyone remember Esly Thornton? He was a good quarterback that we moved to OLB because he was a hard worker and just wanted to help the team. He got four rings because of it.

[clenz]

Hell, we have a guy practicing at LB right now that was one of the best HS running backs in Iowa history, signed with Iowa and was on path to start as a true freshman when the Hawkeye Running Back Hating God blew his knee out on the final play of the final scrimmage of fall camp.

Offense wins games
Defense wins titles

Go back and you'll see the Champions have all been pretty damn good on defense

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[chattownmocs]

Pretty sure any program plays players where they are best or at least where they need them the most in the cases where they can play multiple positions at similar levels.

[RichH2]

Balance between O and D would be a nice move up for Lehigh. Coming into this year,O looks to be our hope for winning games unless there is a marked improvement in the D we have been putting on the field for the last 2-3 years. Mantra for me is the same as it has been for the last 2. Preseasons,"Geez,D has to be better,it cant get any worse." Hopefully I'm right this time :)

[Go Green]

2013 EIU had a great offense, horrible defense, had no chance against top teams.

Cornell with Jeff Mathews at QB was the same way. I felt bad for the guy...

[eiu1999]

Cornell with Jeff Mathews at QB was the same way. I felt bad for the guy...\\

That Garoppolo guy deserved a better defense too.

[clenz]

\\

That Garoppolo guy deserved a better defense too.
True dat, as the kids say these days

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[eiu1999]

True dat, as the kids say these days

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Such a waste

[The Yo Show]

I'd say defense. For example, in the 90s when Tressel was coach at YSU, that was when YSU won their titles. The offense was decent then, I don't know if I would say great or amazing, because Tressel ball was more smash-mouth football and not really geared to run up the score, so its hard to say. But in any case, its no coincidence that OSU won a title when Tressel did the same thing there. You need to have SOME offense, but in my opinion, if you have an absolutely killer defense and a mediocre offense you can win championships. Also, YSU has had really good offenses for the most part the last couple years, and yet a terrible defense. You can even look to that and say it has cost them games. Bottom line, good defense is essential. Sure offense wins games, but defense wins championships.

[Herder]

\\

That Garoppolo guy deserved a better defense too.

Sorry, but offenses that throw it 70 times a game kill defenses by keeping them on the field. Jimmy might have won a few more playoff games if he had handed the ball off a little more and let his defense rest.

[eiu1999]

Sorry, but offenses that throw it 70 times a game kill defenses by keeping them on the field. Jimmy might have won a few more playoff games if he had handed the ball off a little more and let his defense rest.

They had no running game either.

[Laker]

Balance. You can't be all one or the other. If I wanted one to be stronger, it would be defense, because they can help the offense by scoring or setting up scores.

[McNeese75]

I'd say defense. For example, in the 90s when Tressel was coach at YSU, that was when YSU won their titles. The offense was decent then, I don't know if I would say great or amazing, because Tressel ball was more smash-mouth football and not really geared to run up the score, so its hard to say. But in any case, its no coincidence that OSU won a title when Tressel did the same thing there. You need to have SOME offense, but in my opinion, if you have an absolutely killer defense and a mediocre offense you can win championships. Also, YSU has had really good offenses for the most part the last couple years, and yet a terrible defense. You can even look to that and say it has cost them games. Bottom line, good defense is essential. Sure offense wins games, but defense wins championships.

Stout defense and an adequate offense brought McNeese to Chatty in 1997. A dropped TD pass (wide open tight end in the endzone) was the difference in the loss to YSU that year.

[Sycamore62]

When ISUb has good defenses, we have shots. When we have good offenses we are terrible. I don't think we have ever even close to balanced in 25 years

[McNeese72]

Stout defense and an adequate offense brought McNeese to Chatty in 1997. A dropped TD pass (wide open tight end in the endzone) was the difference in the loss to YSU that year.

I vote for defense. That is what got us there in 97. But one thing I blame as much as the dropped pass. We were driving the ball, pounding it on the ground late in the game and had them on their heels. And then for some unexplained reason we decided to throw the ball which YSU intercepted. That pumped them up and led to the drive that won the game. We should have kept pounding the ball running.


Doc

[HailSzczur]

Sounds like Villanova during the Finneran/Westbrook years. Best offensive players in school history (until Robertson) but not a ton to show for it except for an undefeated regular season in '97.

Year Record PF PA
1996 9-4 31.5 21.8.....Lost in FCS first round
1997 12-1 40.4 19.8.....Lost in FCS quaters
1998 6-5 32.5 30.9
1999 7-4 30.4 29.5
2000 5-6 35 32.8
2001 9-3 33.4 25.5

Compared to Nova's most successful years since
Year Record PF PA
2002 11-4 29.9 18.5.....FCS Semi's
2009 14-1 30.1 14.0.....National Champs
2010 9-5 30.8 19.2.....FCS Semi's
2014 11-3 27.7 22.1....FCS quaters

At least for Nova ~30 PF and ~17 PA per game seems to be the magic number. I'd be curious to see an average for all champions

[HailSzczur]

To fulfill my idle curiosity and boredom.... PF/PA data for every champion since 2000. The magic number? Just as I suspected based on Nova's data: 33-17

You can see there are only 2 teams that don't fit the mold, which are the highlighted outliers
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21049&stc=1
The red represents the average
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21050&stc=1

[lionsrking2]

We've had good balance the last couple of years and it's shown in the W/L column. In 2013, we averaged 38.4 on offense and gave up 22.7 ... in 2014, we averaged 40.2 and gave up 17.4 ... I doubt we average 40 points in 2015 but should be able to score enough, especially with the defense we have coming back. Hopefully we can get our defensive points allowed down to around 15.0 ppg.

[eiu1999]

To fulfill my idle curiosity and boredom.... PF/PA data for every champion since 2000. The magic number? Just as I suspected based on Nova's data: 33-17

You can see there are only 2 teams that don't fit the mold, which are the highlighted outliers
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21049&stc=1
The red represents the average
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21050&stc=1


Love the stats

- - - Updated - - -


To fulfill my idle curiosity and boredom.... PF/PA data for every champion since 2000. The magic number? Just as I suspected based on Nova's data: 33-17

You can see there are only 2 teams that don't fit the mold, which are the highlighted outliers
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21049&stc=1
The red represents the average
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21050&stc=1


Love the stats

[Professor Chaos]

It's all about 3rd down efficiency IMO. NDSU's efficiency over the last 4 years in that regard both offensively and defensively is ridiculously good. It's somewhere in the ballpark of 50-55% conversion rate offensively and allowing 35-40% conversion rate defensively. Keep in mind this is over a 4 year span. Now what you do on the first two downs goes a long way towards dictating success on 3rd down but 3rd down is where championship teams excel on both sides of the ball.

[Professor Chaos]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21049&stc=1

It's eye opening for me to see that 2010 EWU squad scored less than the 7 points per game than they allowed yet managed to win 13 of 15 games. I know there was some magic during that playoff run for them but those numbers make it seem like there must've been some magic in the regular season too.

[SU DOG]

I don't know how our offense under Hatcher will be, but he has said that not much has to change. I hope it can be balanced with the "D" because I am Kool-Aid drinking about this team's possibilities to be lock-down good. Samford's projected starting lineup on defense lists SEVEN 5th year players, and FOUR 4th year guys. I don't know how that compares with other FCS squads, but I would think that it is very strong. Those 11 include a 340lb DT who was voted the preseason SoCon Defensive POY, a CB that may be an NFL Draft Pick, and a MLB who is all everything.

I guess this is the time of year when we all love our Kool-Aid. xnodx

[PaladinFan]

I don't know how our offense under Hatcher will be, but he has said that not much has to change. I hope it can be balanced with the "D" because I am Kool-Aid drinking about this team's possibilities to be lock-down good. Samford's projected starting lineup on defense lists SEVEN 5th year players, and FOUR 4th year guys. I don't know how that compares with other FCS squads, but I would think that it is very strong. Those 11 include a 340lb DT who was voted the preseason SoCon Defensive POY, a CB that may be an NFL Draft Pick, and a MLB who is all everything.

I guess this is the time of year when we all love our Kool-Aid. xnodx

You may be. Hatcher-led teams have tended to be pretty bad defensively. I don't know the exact statistics, but I would wager more often than not teams that run an "air raid" offense have defenses that tend to be closer to "bad" than "good."

I don't so much think they are bad defenses, but air raid teams tend to do two things. First, they often score so quickly the defense is back on their feet almost immediately, allowing for little rest. Second, the pure nature of the offense is that a defense does not practice against anything resembling a physical running game, which can be a demerit when facing a team that is apt to grind it out on the ground.

[BEAR]

So:

Offense: Must score about 5 TDS per game
Defense. Must only allow about 2 TDS + 1 field goal per game
-------------------------------------------
= great chance at a natty.

[BEAR]

You may be. Hatcher-led teams have tended to be pretty bad defensively. I don't know the exact statistics, but I would wager more often than not teams that run an "air raid" offense have defenses that tend to be closer to "bad" than "good."

I don't so much think they are bad defenses, but air raid teams tend to do two things. First, they often score so quickly the defense is back on their feet almost immediately, allowing for little rest. Second, the pure nature of the offense is that a defense does not practice against anything resembling a physical running game, which can be a demerit when facing a team that is apt to grind it out on the ground.

So you're a fan of balance. Gotta have a good run game to compliment the pass game so the defense can rest. Gotta have a defense that can defend both pass and run. I'll add you have to have a coaching staff that understands which to defend. xlolx

[lionsrking2]

You may be. Hatcher-led teams have tended to be pretty bad defensively. I don't know the exact statistics, but I would wager more often than not teams that run an "air raid" offense have defenses that tend to be closer to "bad" than "good."

I don't so much think they are bad defenses, but air raid teams tend to do two things. First, they often score so quickly the defense is back on their feet almost immediately, allowing for little rest. Second, the pure nature of the offense is that a defense does not practice against anything resembling a physical running game, which can be a demerit when facing a team that is apt to grind it out on the ground.

Along the same line, teams that run a true "Air Raid" offense, almost always have head coaches who are disciples of the offense (which Hatcher is). Not saying defense is optional with those guys but from Hal Mumme and Mike Leach on down, stopping people consumes a far less amount of their thought processes than gaining yards and scoring points does. I know when Hal was our head coach, losing didn't seem to bother him near as much as having an "off night" offensively. His staff was consumed by offensive stats and national statistical rankings. Not saying they didn't care about winning, but they seemed to take losses much better when the offense had a great night than when they didn't.

[eiu1999]

The EIU defense looked strong in the spring and there are quite a few starters back with experience. With an influx of transfers the defense SHOULD create a better balance.

[SU DOG]

I can't argue with some valid points made about the defensive softness of fast paced offensive teams. In our case, Hatcher has publically stated that the defense will be completely run by our DC who has been here for many years. IMO, he is an outstanding coach. While playing a very similar offense last year, Samford did manage to still rank #14 in FCS in scoring defense. With this much experience returning, I think we will be very good on defense this year. As for 2016, however, and losing that many players, I don't want to even think about it. LOL!

[UNH72Plus]

Classic UNH football - wide open offense and porous defense (although this year looks better). Anyone remember the 2012 UNH vs ODU when Heinicke brought ODU back from a 3rd quarter deficit of 54-38 to pull out a 64-61 victory (ouch, it still hurts)! UNH put up 389 rushing yards and 336 passing yards, while holding ODU to 94 rushing yards. Primarily because Heinicke was passing for 730 yards.

[BEAR]

Reading the above statements about coaches..here's another question.

What kind of coach do you have? Is he an offensive, defensive minded coach that relies on his OC/DC to take care of that business he doesn't want to? Or is he a specialized position coach that believes, for example, that games are won and lost on the "lines"? The better the "lines" the more success.

UCA's coach is a "line" coach. Not sure he can see past the shut down D-Line defense to see there is a need for defending the pass game. xlolx But then again he's only been here one year so maybe he just worked with what he had.

[tomq04]

EWU's championship 2010 run had a top 10 defense, including #1 in turnovers...ever since has been...lacking.

[lionsrking2]

Reading the above statements about coaches..here's another question.

What kind of coach do you have? Is he an offensive, defensive minded coach that relies on his OC/DC to take care of that business he doesn't want to? Or is he a specialized position coach that believes, for example, that games are won and lost on the "lines"? The better the "lines" the more success.

UCA's coach is a "line" coach. Not sure he can see past the shut down D-Line defense to see there is a need for defending the pass game. xlolx But then again he's only been here one year so maybe he just worked with what he had.

Ron Roberts is a defensive guy and has highly ranked defenses most of his tenure as head coach at Delta State and Southeastern Louisiana. He was also a very successful Defensive Coordinator.

[HailSzczur]

It's eye opening for me to see that 2010 EWU squad scored less than the 7 points per game than they allowed yet managed to win 13 of 15 games. I know there was some magic during that playoff run for them but those numbers make it seem like there must've been some magic in the regular season too.

They did get a pretty sure handed Nova team to turn the ball over 6 times in the Semis, including 4 fumbles. Call it magic or good defense, but that's what was the difference in that one

Like tomq04 said, turnovers (and probably turnover margin) is likely the other most important thing for defenses on premier teams. Maybe if I'm bored again to tonight I'll look into that one

[Mattymc727]

Classic UNH football - wide open offense and porous defense (although this year looks better). Anyone remember the 2012 UNH vs ODU when Heinicke brought ODU back from a 3rd quarter deficit of 54-38 to pull out a 64-61 victory (ouch, it still hurts)! UNH put up 389 rushing yards and 336 passing yards, while holding ODU to 94 rushing yards. Primarily because Heinicke was passing for 730 yards.

That was such a sad football contest....

The past two years UNH has really turned a corner on defense compared from the previous 5. In fact, last years defensive 11 were very good (Which helped keep UNH more balanced than ever). With a lot of returning on the defensive side, they need to be strong while the new guys on offense catch up.

Having such a high powered offense over the last few years has hurt UNH many times. Quick strike football put the defense back on the field and TOP was not in UNH's favor. Sometimes UNH has had the best QB in the league, but it hurt the defense so much that it cost them in the playoffs. If offense is to be your teams strength, time of possession needs to be of high importance. Basically it comes down to the trenches. If you have great offensive and defensive lines, you can control the time of possession by running the ball effectively and stopping the run.