Liberty should be FBS/FBS problems mixing religion and football

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/fbs-problems-with-mixing-religion-and.html

Liberty should be an FBS school. There should be a football-only conference of national-mission FBS schools, and Liberty should be in it.

I don't know if will happen, or if it can happen, but until it happens, Liberty will be stuck in FCS. And they shouldn't be.

[knucklehead]

Again, football attendance is NOT required at all.

Great read though, and you are right on with your premise. Liberty is basically being punished because the are a newer school with bad timing. I'm not positive that religion is as much the issue as Private vs public and Money vs lack of it.

[DFW HOYA]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2015/06/fbs-problems-with-mixing-religion-and.html

Liberty should be an FBS school. There should be a football-only conference of national-mission FBS schools, and Liberty should be in it.


By that definition, facilities notwithstanding, so should Georgetown.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

While it's obviously true that Notre Dame, Liberty and BYU are religious institutions, I believe that's where the similarities end.

While ND has deep roots in religion, you don't have to be a very religious person to attend there. Honestly, you don't have to be religious at all. An athlete can get the "normal" college experience at Notre Dame. There's plenty of kids drinking beer, smoking weed and having sex there. There's simply not the culture shock that exists at BYU and Liberty when it comes to those things. As a result, ND will always have a broader range of appeal. That's not a slam against BYU an Liberty, just a reality...

[KPSUL]

I completely disagree with this statement from the article, from which your central argument is derived: "Liberty has everything in common with Notre Dame..." Liberty has almost nothing in common with Notre Dame. Academically, Notre Dame is a respected national university with a distinquished faculty who adher to academic principles of honest intellectual inquiry. Academically, Liberty is at best a mediocre Southeast regional school tha allows fundamental religious dogma to influence ciricculum of some courses. This dissuades many, if not most, prospective college students from considering it as a an option. Athletically, Notre Dame has a long tradition of success at the highest level of NCCA competition in all of the many sports they offer. For most varsity sports, Liberty competes in the Big South, hardly the home of national powerhouse programs. You point to Notre Dame's early rise in Football as result of scheduling and beating the toughest opponent first regionally and then nationally. Liberty Football hasn't even distinquished itself yet as one of the top FCS teams in the Southeast. W & M, JMU, Richmond, Coastal, Chattanooga, Furman and Wofford have all had more impressive programs over the past 5 - 10 years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I completely disagree with this statement from the article, from which your central argument is derived: "Liberty has everything in common with Notre Dame..." Liberty has almost nothing in common with Notre Dame. Academically, Notre Dame is a respected national university with a distinquished faculty who adher to academic principles of honest intellectual inquiry. Academically, Liberty is at best a mediocre Southeast regional school tha allows fundamental religious dogma to influence ciricculum of some courses. This dissuades many, if not most, prospective college students from considering it as a an option.

Interesting you didn't mention BYU here, but fundamentally Notre Dame and Liberty want faith to be involved somewhere in the education process, which gives them something in common. As DFW noted, that aspect is a similarity that Georgetown shares (and Villanova, and others). I can see this line of attack if Liberty wasn't accredited, but they have as much a right to be a university as Notre Dame does.


Athletically, Notre Dame has a long tradition of success at the highest level of NCCA competition in all of the many sports they offer. For most varsity sports, Liberty competes in the Big South, hardly the home of national powerhouse programs. You point to Notre Dame's early rise in Football as result of scheduling and beating the toughest opponent first regionally and then nationally. Liberty Football hasn't even distinquished itself yet as one of the top FCS teams in the Southeast. W & M, JMU, Richmond, Coastal, Chattanooga, Furman and Wofford have all had more impressive programs over the past 5 - 10 years.

Notre Dame had a long tradition of football success because they established it before the NCAA divided institutions into Division I and Division II. As for BYU, they had the fortune of parking themselves in the WAC, which established themselves as a I-A conference, at that time. When Notre Dame and BYU were founded they were not constrained by the stratified FCS and FBS structure that exists today, and if they did exist today at the FCS level, which FBS conference would accept them?

As for success at the FCS level in the Southeast, I'd have been inclined to agree with you before Liberty upset JMU in the first round of the playoffs last year.

[Lehigh'98]

As was said, way off base comparing ND, who's been a national power since the 1920's to Liberty. They are so different that they shouldn't even be mentioned together. Liberty's idea of a "religious education" is far different than ND's. In fact so far its laughable.

[heath]

If you cannot beat Lehigh,then you have zero business in the FBS. Any questions?:D

[KPSUL]

As for success at the FCS level in the Southeast, I'd have been inclined to agree with you before Liberty upset JMU in the first round of the playoffs last year.[/QUOTE]

That win over JMU in the 2014 playoff was the only win for Liberty against a CAA opponent. In the past ten years, Liberty is 1 and 10 against the CAA, 1 and 3 vs JMU. The vast majority of their wins have been against Big South and Div 2 opponents. I believe they have a losing record against every FCS conference to include your very own Patriot League. They have done nothing to warrant moving to any FBS conference. Don't blame it on religious affiliation, blame it on mediocre football results.

[344Johnson]

Let's not compare the winningest football program in America to Liberty. That will be all.

[The Cats]

I've got no dog in this fight, but it does not matter what Liberty's record is in relationship to their wanting to go the FBS route. Charlotte became FBS before ever playing a down of football.

If they want to become FBS, there should be a "path to citizenship" for them...... other that an invite from an existing FBS conference. Period.

[Catatonic]

Let's not compare the winningest football program in America to Liberty. That will be all.

Wait. Liberty is comparing itself to Michigan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins

[The Cats]

Wait. Liberty is comparing itself to Michigan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins


Is "imitation the sincerest form of flattery" or just a rip-off?



http://www.anygivensaturday.com/customavatars/avatar38628_11.gif https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/WCU_Athletic_Logo.jpg

[Catatonic]

Is "imitation the sincerest form of flattery" or just a rip-off? y




http://www.anygivensaturday.com/customavatars/avatar38628_11.gif https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/WCU_Athletic_Logo.jpg


Our logo was designed for us a couple of years ago by Rickabaugh Graphics as part of our move up to D1. A little Google sleuthing turned up the interesting fact that this same company designed your logo back in 2008. Looks like they dusted off one of their earlier designs, made a few cosmetic changes and sold it to us as a "new design." Wonder how much we paid them?

[344Johnson]

Wait. Liberty is comparing itself to Michigan?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_football_teams_by_wins

Notre Dame has a better percentage. Fewer games though. I hate Michigan

[aceinthehole]

A comparison to BYU would probably be closer and more interesting. Liberty is held back mostly by late timing - if they started a football program and had this infrastructure 40 years ago, they would already be FBS.

As others have posted, the ND compairson is way off base.

[NDSUSR]

That "article" is complete bull****. Almost as full of it as Falwell himself.
I dont see the authors name anywhere?

[Dane96]

Interesting you didn't mention BYU here, but fundamentally Notre Dame and Liberty want faith to be involved somewhere in the education process, which gives them something in common. As DFW noted, that aspect is a similarity that Georgetown shares (and Villanova, and others). I can see this line of attack if Liberty wasn't accredited, but they have as much a right to be a university as Notre Dame does.



Notre Dame had a long tradition of football success because they established it before the NCAA divided institutions into Division I and Division II. As for BYU, they had the fortune of parking themselves in the WAC, which established themselves as a I-A conference, at that time. When Notre Dame and BYU were founded they were not constrained by the stratified FCS and FBS structure that exists today, and if they did exist today at the FCS level, which FBS conference would accept them?

As for success at the FCS level in the Southeast, I'd have been inclined to agree with you before Liberty upset JMU in the first round of the playoffs last year.

You're missing the point. At Liberty, the religious beliefs of the founder (and students, for the most part) are CENTRAL to the education process. It is core to the teachings that go on there, and the school is marketed to these students. Same with BYU.

While Notre Dame is considered a Catholic school, and arguably is the pre-eminent world university serving as a beacon for the spreading of Catholicism and it's teachings, the academic side is not primarily slanted by it's religious founding. In fact, they have a nondenominational prayer center where Muslims pray. They have an Interfaith Christian night, every Wednesday, where Protestants and Catholics pray together. There is an informal group of Jewish students that meet to pray.

At Liberty, you have compulsory convocation three times a week. Almost always, these are speaker series that feature individuals who, while they may be Liberal in politics, come from Christian faith-based religion.

At BYU, 98% of its students affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Most students serve a mission during school. The school requires you to be religiously active, Mormon students must sign a form stating they will practice LSD beliefs, and all students must sign the CES Honor Code.

While a large majority (I think it was in the 80% range) are Catholic, there is no need to identify with religious affiliation for acceptance nor are there any compulsory requirements for religious study. This is more similar to Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, etc.

To wit, the University conferred an honorary degree to President Obama, a man who supports abortion and stem cell research. Think on that for a moment, and then compare it to whether that would ever occur at Liberty or BYU.

Rhetorical.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're missing the point. At Liberty, the religious beliefs of the founder (and students, for the most part) are CENTRAL to the education process. It is core to the teachings that go on there, and the school is marketed to these students. Same with BYU.

While Notre Dame is considered a Catholic school, and arguably is the pre-eminent world university serving as a beacon for the spreading of Catholicism and it's teachings, the academic side is not primarily slanted by it's religious founding. In fact, they have a nondenominational prayer center where Muslims pray. They have an Interfaith Christian night, every Wednesday, where Protestants and Catholics pray together. There is an informal group of Jewish students that meet to pray.

At Liberty, you have compulsory convocation three times a week. Almost always, these are speaker series who, while they may be Liberal in politics, come from Christian faith-based religion.

At BYU, 98% of its students affiliate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Most students serve a mission during school. The school requires you to be religiously active, Mormon students must sign a form stating they will practice LSD beliefs, and all students must sign the CES Honor Code.

While a large majority (I think it was in the 80% range) are Catholic, there is no need to identify with religious affiliation for acceptance nor are there any compulsory requirements for religious study. This is more similar to Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, etc.

To wit, the University conferred an honorary degree to President Obama, a man who supports abortion and stem cell research. Think on that for a moment, and then compare it to whether that would ever occur at Liberty or BYU.

Rhetorical.

The thing is, philosophies as to how their schools become "beacons for spreading of (Catholicism, LDS, Southern Baptist)" does not affect their accreditation status or their ability to field FBS football teams. Some may find Notre Dame's modus operandi more acceptable to them academically than Liberty's, but athletically Notre Dame, BYU and Liberty have the exact same mission - to use FBS football as a way to showcase their brand of education on a national level. Much the same way Army, Navy and the AFA wish to use football to showcase their brand nationally for recruiting for the armed forces.

Notre Dame's FBS goals much more closely align with a football-only conference containing Army, Navy, AFA, BYU, and yes, Liberty than this quasi-scheduling arrangement with the ACC. Now, religious and philosophical differences might prevent such an alliance from ever happening. But why should Liberty be essentially be prevented from being FBS if that's what they want? Especially in a word with FCOA and no real conference-driven way to control the actions of their members in this regard, there really ought to be a way for a school like Liberty to be able to go to FBS. But without an NCAA rule change or a conference construct like the one I've devised - a conference completely comprised of institutions with the same FBS football goals - it seems like it will never happen.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I completely disagree with this statement from the article, from which your central argument is derived: "Liberty has everything in common with Notre Dame..." Liberty has almost nothing in common with Notre Dame. Academically, Notre Dame is a respected national university with a distinquished faculty who adher to academic principles of honest intellectual inquiry. Academically, Liberty is at best a mediocre Southeast regional school tha allows fundamental religious dogma to influence ciricculum of some courses. This dissuades many, if not most, prospective college students from considering it as a an option. Athletically, Notre Dame has a long tradition of success at the highest level of NCCA competition in all of the many sports they offer. For most varsity sports, Liberty competes in the Big South, hardly the home of national powerhouse programs. You point to Notre Dame's early rise in Football as result of scheduling and beating the toughest opponent first regionally and then nationally. Liberty Football hasn't even distinquished itself yet as one of the top FCS teams in the Southeast. W & M, JMU, Richmond, Coastal, Chattanooga, Furman and Wofford have all had more impressive programs over the past 5 - 10 years.



Lol....Liberty is a private university, it's curriculum can reflect whatever it decides. Unlike most college kids getting bombarded with liberal/leftist propoganda at every turn at most state funded schools and most liberal arts privates.

[344Johnson]

The thing is, philosophies as to how their schools become "beacons for spreading of (Catholicism, LDS, Southern Baptist)" does not affect their accreditation status or their ability to field FBS football teams. Some may find Notre Dame's modus operandi more acceptable to them academically than Liberty's, but athletically Notre Dame, BYU and Liberty have the exact same mission - to use FBS football as a way to showcase their brand of education on a national level. Much the same way Army, Navy and the AFA wish to use football to showcase their brand nationally for recruiting for the armed forces.

Notre Dame's FBS goals much more closely align with a football-only conference containing Army, Navy, AFA, BYU, and yes, Liberty than this quasi-scheduling arrangement with the ACC. Now, religious and philosophical differences might prevent such an alliance from ever happening. But why should Liberty be essentially be prevented from being FBS if that's what they want? Especially in a word with FCOA and no real conference-driven way to control the actions of their members in this regard, there really ought to be a way for a school like Liberty to be able to go to FBS. But without an NCAA rule change or a conference construct like the one I've devised - a conference completely comprised of institutions with the same FBS football goals - it seems like it will never happen.

Notre Dame's FBS goal in to put 80,000+ in the stadium on Saturday and compete for championships.

[KPSUL]

Lol....Liberty is a private university, it's curriculum can reflect whatever it decides. Unlike most college kids getting bombarded with liberal/leftist propoganda at every turn at most state funded schools and most liberal arts privates.

Private? Really? I thought the fundamentalist school started by the self-proclaimed leader of the "moral majority" was a state university. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Sandlapper Spike]

At this point, I don't think Liberty's inability to move to FBS has as much to do with religion as it does the school's enormous online presence and the money it generates.

[ccd494]

Lol....Liberty is a private university, it's curriculum can reflect whatever it decides.

You are correct. And, in turn, other universities can choose not to associate with Liberty as a result. There's a reason Elon is in the CAA and Liberty isn't. And it has nothing to do with the merits of Liberty's football program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are correct. And, in turn, other universities can choose not to associate with Liberty as a result. There's a reason Elon is in the CAA and Liberty isn't. And it has nothing to do with the merits of Liberty's football program.

Private, unaffiliated Elon has regional institutional goals that align with those of the other members of the CAA. Private, Southern Baptist Liberty has national institutional goals that do not.

[ccd494]

Private, unaffiliated Elon has regional institutional goals that align with those of the other members of the CAA. Private, Southern Baptist Liberty has national institutional goals that do not.

Liberty would rather park its program in the backwater that is the Big South compared to the marginally bigger fish CAA? Okay.

Regardless, you won't see any northeast publics willingly associate with Liberty.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Liberty would rather park its program in the backwater that is the Big South compared to the marginally bigger fish CAA? Okay.

Regardless, you won't see any northeast publics willingly associate with Liberty.

Liberty would rather park its program in a place where they can have an FBS program, but they're stuck in the Big South because they need a regional conference to play basketball in.

So it sounds like you agree with me, Liberty's institutional goals don't align with those of the other institutions of the CAA, and the CAA's institutional goals don't align with Liberty's? So then why would Liberty want to be a member of the CAA? All we've really done is adequately explain why Liberty would never pursue the CAA and the CAA would never pursue Liberty.

[DFW HOYA]

Liberty would rather park its program in a place where they can have an FBS program, but they're stuck in the Big South because they need a regional conference to play basketball in.

Liberty probably needs to continue to lobby the Sun Belt. It's the bottom of the I-A food chain and most likely to have an opening if someone moves up.

[ccd494]

Liberty would rather park its program in a place where they can have an FBS program, but they're stuck in the Big South because they need a regional conference to play basketball in.

So it sounds like you agree with me, Liberty's institutional goals don't align with those of the other institutions of the CAA, and the CAA's institutional goals don't align with Liberty's? So then why would Liberty want to be a member of the CAA? All we've really done is adequately explain why Liberty would never pursue the CAA and the CAA would never pursue Liberty.

The CAA offers better football and basketball than the Big South. If you want to climb the ladder, you try to move to a higher rung. Unless you are Charlotte and have an escalator already.

[aceinthehole]

Liberty would rather park its program in a place where they can have an FBS program, but they're stuck in the Big South because they need a regional conference to play basketball in.

So it sounds like you agree with me, Liberty's institutional goals don't align with those of the other institutions of the CAA, and the CAA's institutional goals don't align with Liberty's? So then why would Liberty want to be a member of the CAA? All we've really done is adequately explain why Liberty would never pursue the CAA and the CAA would never pursue Liberty.

Why? If Liberty really wants to be a "National University," it can't park its other sports in the Big South - you know that!

While the CAA is still a one-bid, mid major basketball conference, it does have a pedigree of 2 Final Four teams (GMU and VCU) and is superior to Big South basketball. It would better position Libery for its next move (to a FBS conference) than the Big South.

The fact is the CAA did not want Liberty - whatever their reasons. For you to suggest that Liberty wouldn't have marginally upgraded their status by joining the CAA while still seeking a FBS home in a National conference is being silly.

Liberty is not entitiled to FBS because they strive as an institution to become like ND or BYU. Your entire premise is just another post of rambling thoughts on unrealted topics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why? If Liberty really wants to be a "National University," it can't park its other sports in the Big South - you know that!

How is this different than what Notre Dame is doing... or Army... or BYU?


While the CAA is still a one-bid, mid major basketball conference, it does have a pedigree of 2 Final Four teams (GMU and VCU) and is superior to Big South basketball. It would better position Libery for its next move (to a FBS conference) than the Big South.

The fact is the CAA did not want Liberty - whatever their reasons. For you to suggest that Liberty wouldn't have marginally upgraded their status by joining the CAA while still seeking a FBS home in a National conference is being silly.

Liberty is not entitiled to FBS because they strive as an institution to become like ND or BYU. Your entire premise is just another post of rambling thoughts on unrealted topics.

Why do people think Liberty want, or wanted, to join the CAA? As people are amply proving, the regional aspirations of the CAA do not align with those of Liberty. This "Liberty should want to go to the CAA, but sike, the CAA didn't want them anyway" is pretty much comical. Why would Liberty want to move their bus to a marginally bigger garage when they really want to be somewhere else entirely?

Liberty literally meets all the requirements to join the FBS except for the one requirement that makes no sense - that they require an invite from an EXISTING FBS conference. They are accredited. They are a member of the NCAA. They have a desire to be FBS - they have made no bones about it. The only thing keeping them from going is a ridiculous rule that is only in place to stratify the existing FBS conference structure.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Liberty probably needs to continue to lobby the Sun Belt. It's the bottom of the I-A food chain and most likely to have an opening if someone moves up.

The Sun Belt would also only be a parking garage for Liberty's ambitions, which is one giant reason the Sun Belt hasn't offered them already. Then again, some days it seems the Sun Belt's only reason to exist is to be a parking garage for such programs.

[ccd494]

The Sun Belt would also only be a parking garage for Liberty's ambitions, which is one giant reason the Sun Belt hasn't offered them already. Then again, some days it seems the Sun Belt's only reason to exist is to be a parking garage for such programs.

So your thesis is that Liberty should be immediately granted entry into the ACC? I'm with aceinthehole, I guess. I don't see your point.

My point is that most schools when moving upwards in the hierarchy of NCAA sports, do so incrementally. If you are in the Big South and want to increase your profile, you move to the CAA. If you are in the CAA and you want to move to FBS, you go to a non-power 5 conference like C-USA or the Sun Belt. If you are in the C-USA or the Sun Belt and you want to play for a national title, you claw fight and steal your way into... well.. that door is closed. But the point remains, just wanting to be in the ACC doesn't get you there.

Is your point that Liberty should be allowed to just move to FBS without a conference? Okay.... but what happens when College of Faith wants to come too? It took NJIT about a decade to find a hoops home, during which time they made national headlines for futility. That's what the NCAA is trying to prevent- schools making a publicity grab by being DIVISION ONE!!! in name only. The conference requirement exists for a good reason- in order to belong, the other members have to think you should belong. If they think you should belong, they will invite you to their conference.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I don't think it would help Liberty much (in terms of its ultimate ambitions) to move to the CAA at this point. Maybe ten years ago, but not now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So your thesis is that Liberty should be immediately granted entry into the ACC? I'm with aceinthehole, I guess. I don't see your point.

My point is that most schools when moving upwards in the hierarchy of NCAA sports, do so incrementally. If you are in the Big South and want to increase your profile, you move to the CAA. If you are in the CAA and you want to move to FBS, you go to a non-power 5 conference like C-USA or the Sun Belt. If you are in the C-USA or the Sun Belt and you want to play for a national title, you claw fight and steal your way into... well.. that door is closed. But the point remains, just wanting to be in the ACC doesn't get you there.

Is your point that Liberty should be allowed to just move to FBS without a conference? Okay.... but what happens when College of Faith wants to come too? It took NJIT about a decade to find a hoops home, during which time they made national headlines for futility. That's what the NCAA is trying to prevent- schools making a publicity grab by being DIVISION ONE!!! in name only. The conference requirement exists for a good reason- in order to belong, the other members have to think you should belong. If they think you should belong, they will invite you to their conference.

The existing structure exists to keep the existing conference structure stratified and to put power in conference hands over individual institutions.

Notre Dame's independent status can be traced to the pre-Division-I, II days where their success and legend status in football allowed them to be a Division I-A independent (in fact, most football teams were considered independents before the Division I/II split happened). The only reason they're attached to the ACC now is that they need a toehold in the P5 structure and the new Big East and the AAC are not in it.

BYU's FBS status came about due to some luck in 1978 where they stood firm in remaining in the WAC, which as a conference elected to continue to sponsor I-A football. They only became independent much, much later when they thought they could get a better TV deal by being outside a G5 conference (when they learned, to their dismay, that conferences would essentially rig the system so that independents not named Notre Dame wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell to qualify for the CFP).

Notre Dame came in independent; stayed independent, through an accident of history. BYU came in through the WAC, which doesn't exist anymore as an FBS conference, and became independent, because if you're already FBS, you are allowed to leave a conference to be an FBS independent. Neither had a referendum as to whether they "belong" as an FBS independent. Why should Liberty?

[DFW HOYA]

So what do we call a Baptist school situated between their flagship university and the military-oriented technical college on the other side of the state? Where dances were banned until the 1980's and chapel attendance is not only required, but ID's are scanned to ensure attendance? Where the school's web site clearly says that it:

"...is founded on the belief that God's nature is made known through both revealed and discovered truth. Thus, the University derives its understanding of God, humanity and nature from many sources: the person and work of Jesus Christ, the biblical record, and Christian history and tradition...In its service to the Church, [its] pursuit of knowledge is strengthened by the conviction that truth has its ultimate source in God and by a Baptist heritage that champions religious liberty and freedom of conscience"?

Liberty University? No, it's Baylor, which seems to do just fine in major college football.

[Dane96]

How is this different than what Notre Dame is doing... or Army... or BYU?



Why do people think Liberty want, or wanted, to join the CAA? As people are amply proving, the regional aspirations of the CAA do not align with those of Liberty. This "Liberty should want to go to the CAA, but sike, the CAA didn't want them anyway" is pretty much comical. Why would Liberty want to move their bus to a marginally bigger garage when they really want to be somewhere else entirely?

Liberty literally meets all the requirements to join the FBS except for the one requirement that makes no sense - that they require an invite from an EXISTING FBS conference. They are accredited. They are a member of the NCAA. They have a desire to be FBS - they have made no bones about it. The only thing keeping them from going is a ridiculous rule that is only in place to stratify the existing FBS conference structure.

Let's keep this simple. All arguments are moot unless the NCAA gets blasted for an Anti-Trust violation because of the rule requiring an invite from a conference. It's a slim argument, at best.

The reality is...Liberty--nor any school for that matter--has an inalienable right to play FBS football. It's really that simple.

[Dane96]

So what do we call a Baptist school situated between their flagship university and the military-oriented technical college on the other side of the state? Where dances were banned until the 1980's and chapel attendance is not only required, but ID's are scanned to ensure attendance? Where the school's web site clearly says that it:

"...is founded on the belief that God's nature is made known through both revealed and discovered truth. Thus, the University derives its understanding of God, humanity and nature from many sources: the person and work of Jesus Christ, the biblical record, and Christian history and tradition...In its service to the Church, [its] pursuit of knowledge is strengthened by the conviction that truth has its ultimate source in God and by a Baptist heritage that champions religious liberty and freedom of conscience"?

Liberty University? No, it's Baylor, which seems to do just fine in major college football.

Completely agree with this! Put it this way: if Baylor or BYU tried to move up in this era of football...I'm not so sure they'd get an FBS invite. Same with Oral Roberts. Basically, the "establishment" has grandfathered these schools in...without actually stating such.

While agreeing with your statement, I still say that my previous comment is the lynch-pin in all of this: Liberty does not have a protected right to be in the FBS short of a court agreeing with an argument that the NCAA is committing an antitrust violation by excluding a school that has not received a conference invite. That's an unlikely proposition.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Not sure I see any connection with ND, BYU, and Liberty. They seems like 3 completely difference cases to me.

ND is a team that can fill up a large stadium hundreds of miles from where they are located and they get a nice deal with a major TV network and they don't want to share the money with conference mates.

I don't know why BYU left the Moutain West (maybe they think they're too good for the latest incarnation of it?) but I'm pretty sure they would be welcomed back to the league with open arms if they wanted.

The MAC is sort of the CAA of the G5 and would turn their nose up at Liberty's academics even if they were a secular institution. The CUSA fools only care about so-called "media markets" so that's not an option for them. I don't know why the Sun Belt isn't interested, but they aren't in a position to turn someone away because they might be too competitive or wealthy. I wouldn't have a problem with Liberty joining the Sun Belt, but I'm also not going to sit here and say they are no more controversial than BYU or ND.

[number1]

Not sure I see any connection with ND, BYU, and Liberty. They seems like 3 completely difference cases to me.

ND is a team that can fill up a large stadium hundreds of miles from where they are located and they get a nice deal with a major TV network and they don't want to share the money with conference mates.

I don't know why BYU left the Moutain West (maybe they think they're too good for the latest incarnation of it?) but I'm pretty sure they would be welcomed back to the league with open arms if they wanted.

The MAC is sort of the CAA of the G5 and would turn their nose up at Liberty's academics even if they were a secular institution. The CUSA fools only care about so-called "media markets" so that's not an option for them. I don't know why the Sun Belt isn't interested, but they aren't in a position to turn someone away because they might be too competitive or wealthy. I wouldn't have a problem with Liberty joining the Sun Belt, but I'm also not going to sit here and say they are no more controversial than BYU or ND.

I am guessing they probably thought they would gain more opportunities being independent. It had to hurt their feelings to see Utah get invited to the Pac-12 and TCU to the Big 12, while they were left out of the conference expansion discussions.

[ccd494]

I still say that my previous comment is the lynch-pin in all of this: Liberty does not have a protected right to be in the FBS short of a court agreeing with an argument that the NCAA is committing an antitrust violation by excluding a school that has not received a conference invite. That's an unlikely proposition.

Exactly. It's ALL a cartel. LFN is up in arms about FBS telling Liberty they can't join, but every single person on this board applauded when the NCAA said Davidson can't play the College of Faith anymore. The difference is semantics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. It's ALL a cartel. LFN is up in arms about FBS telling Liberty they can't join, but every single person on this board applauded when the NCAA said Davidson can't play the College of Faith anymore. The difference is semantics.

The comparison with CoF is completely off base. Nobody's saying no FBS teams should ever PLAY Liberty, nor is anyone saying CoF should be a member of FCS when they can't even meet the basic requirements to become a NAIA school. Liberty's a full D-I member and meets all of their requirements. Exactly what FBS requirements are there that Liberty does not, or cannot, meet aside from that conference hegemony FBS invitation rule?

There are multiple prices FCS pay for Liberty not being allowed to go to a subdivision they can 1) amply afford, 2) have the attendance numbers to meet the requirements, and 3) want their athletic program to be. For example, their adoption of FCOA (which of course is completely permitted within NCAA rules) could potentially destabilize both the Big South and FCS football. If Liberty were simply allowed to compete in FBS as an independent, all the other FCS schools might not elect to adopt FCOA and thus all look more similar. Instead, Liberty is forced to compete in a division they don't want to be in while causing a litany of uncomfortable questions at the FCS level. People don't think FCS pays a price for having schools that don't want to be there compete there, but FCS does.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Private? Really? I thought the fundamentalist school started by the self-proclaimed leader of the "moral majority" was a state university. Thanks for clarifying that.


Blah, blah, blah.

Any Christian university now is bombarded with hate from liberal/leftit elitists.

Another reason why liberals are wackos. If you dont agree with their propoganda then you are classified as a bigot or racist. They are the racists trying to classify people into groups.

I hope Liberty finds a FBS home because they would be a very good member for any conference.

[parr90]

I feel like that if Liberty wants to be FBS then more power to them, they can be an independent. I dont think Liberty compares to ND or BYU though. As far as being a religious school and thats it. ND and BYU have been playing FBS for a long time and are both very established and both have successful history behind them.

The fact that Liberty does market to a certain religious student IMO hurts them as far as being FBS. As someone else said Liberty hasnt exactly been a dominant program in FCS. Charlotte was able to do what they did because of their market and future ability to grow. Liberty IMO would have a tough time recruiting football players to compete at the FBS level. They dont have the name of a ND nor the history of a ND. Many kids have never heard of Liberty. Most kids know about ND. Liberty has a much smaller window to recruit from and I dont believe they would be able to find and attract enough talent to compete year in year out to play FBS football. I could be wrong, just my opinion.

[Lehigh'98]

The comparison with CoF is completely off base. Nobody's saying no FBS teams should ever PLAY Liberty, nor is anyone saying CoF should be a member of FCS when they can't even meet the basic requirements to become a NAIA school. Liberty's a full D-I member and meets all of their requirements. Exactly what FBS requirements are there that Liberty does not, or cannot, meet aside from that conference hegemony FBS invitation rule?

There are multiple prices FCS pay for Liberty not being allowed to go to a subdivision they can 1) amply afford, 2) have the attendance numbers to meet the requirements, and 3) want their athletic program to be. For example, their adoption of FCOA (which of course is completely permitted within NCAA rules) could potentially destabilize both the Big South and FCS football. If Liberty were simply allowed to compete in FBS as an independent, all the other FCS schools might not elect to adopt FCOA and thus all look more similar. Instead, Liberty is forced to compete in a division they don't want to be in while causing a litany of uncomfortable questions at the FCS level. People don't think FCS pays a price for having schools that don't want to be there compete there, but FCS does.

Had you used this line of thinking as the theme of your article and not gone the ND route, it would make a hell of a more compelling argument.

[ccd494]

The comparison with CoF is completely off base. Nobody's saying no FBS teams should ever PLAY Liberty, nor is anyone saying CoF should be a member of FCS when they can't even meet the basic requirements to become a NAIA school. Liberty's a full D-I member and meets all of their requirements. Exactly what FBS requirements are there that Liberty does not, or cannot, meet aside from that conference hegemony FBS invitation rule?

There are multiple prices FCS pay for Liberty not being allowed to go to a subdivision they can 1) amply afford, 2) have the attendance numbers to meet the requirements, and 3) want their athletic program to be. For example, their adoption of FCOA (which of course is completely permitted within NCAA rules) could potentially destabilize both the Big South and FCS football. If Liberty were simply allowed to compete in FBS as an independent, all the other FCS schools might not elect to adopt FCOA and thus all look more similar. Instead, Liberty is forced to compete in a division they don't want to be in while causing a litany of uncomfortable questions at the FCS level. People don't think FCS pays a price for having schools that don't want to be there compete there, but FCS does.

So then the FCS schools, who are voluntary voting members of the NCAA remember, should pass legislation saying that FCS schools can't adopt FCOA.

I really don't understand when people get up and arms about certain schools being screwed over by the NCAA. All these schools voluntarily choose to be NCAA institutions, and all of these schools have avenues to enact legislation or change within the NCAA. If Liberty doesn't like the rules, and can't get support to change the rules to benefit themselves, maybe they should re-evaluate whether NCAA membership is right for them.

[AmsterBison]

So then the FCS schools, who are voluntary voting members of the NCAA remember, should pass legislation saying that FCS schools can't adopt FCOA.

I really don't understand when people get up and arms about certain schools being screwed over by the NCAA. All these schools voluntarily choose to be NCAA institutions, and all of these schools have avenues to enact legislation or change within the NCAA. If Liberty doesn't like the rules, and can't get support to change the rules to benefit themselves, maybe they should re-evaluate whether NCAA membership is right for them.

Well, maybe it's this new bar (i.e. having to have a conference invitation to move up) that is causing the concern. Liberty certainly isn't owed a spot in an FBS conference, but if they want to be FBS as an independent, I don't see why they shouldn't have that choice. I don't see why they wouldn't be good enough for the Sun Belt... although, aren't all the Sun Belt universities public?

[ccd494]

Well, maybe it's this new bar (i.e. having to have a conference invitation to move up) that is causing the concern. Liberty certainly isn't owed a spot in an FBS conference, but if they want to be FBS as an independent, I don't see why they shouldn't have that choice. I don't see why they wouldn't be good enough for the Sun Belt... although, aren't all the Sun Belt universities public?

Because the FBS schools, as is their right, have proposed and enacted legislation that does not allow teams to move up as independents. It's their division, why can't they run it as they see fit?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So then the FCS schools, who are voluntary voting members of the NCAA remember, should pass legislation saying that FCS schools can't adopt FCOA.

I really don't understand when people get up and arms about certain schools being screwed over by the NCAA. All these schools voluntarily choose to be NCAA institutions, and all of these schools have avenues to enact legislation or change within the NCAA. If Liberty doesn't like the rules, and can't get support to change the rules to benefit themselves, maybe they should re-evaluate whether NCAA membership is right for them.

First of all, broadly I agree with you - people are very quick to point to the NCAA as a straw man for unpopular institutional decisions.

However, in this case the definitions of how to be an FBS school or an FCS school are defined within the NCAA rulebook.

It is true that Liberty could go elsewhere to be a collegiate program, say, NAIA, but this would also be counter to their institutional desires. It is also true that they could fight for an exemption to allow them the ability to become FBS as an independent. Perhaps that's what they ought to do.

The Sun Belt has one thing Liberty wants (FBS status for its football programs) but otherwise are comprised of institutions that have nothing to do with Liberty's mission.

Finally, I won't go into the details here, but conferences and subdivisions cannot enact a rule prohibiting their members from following NCAA-wide approved permissive legislation, which is what FCOA is.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Had you used this line of thinking as the theme of your article and not gone the ND route, it would make a hell of a more compelling argument.

The fact that Notre Dame is more financially successful and more entrenched in the FBS college infrastructure does not change the fact that their views about the use of FBS football to spread the word about their University and their faith is the same as Liberty's views on the matter.

[ccd494]

However, in this case the definitions of how to be an FBS school or an FCS school are defined within the NCAA rulebook.

...

Finally, I won't go into the details here, but conferences and subdivisions cannot enact a rule prohibiting their members from following NCAA-wide approved permissive legislation, which is what FCOA is.

Here's where your argument doesn't make sense. Liberty is an NCAA institution that can propose legislation to change the rulebook. If Liberty is truly getting screwed, and can convince its fellow NCAA members of such, Liberty can have the rules changed so it can be an FBS independent. Presumably, Liberty can't get that support. So the NCAA member institutions, of which Liberty is one, do not see Liberty's institutional desires as conducive to the NCAA membership as a whole. So, Liberty must abide by the rules that the NCAA has adopted.

Further, FCS schools, as NCAA member institutions, can advocate for a change in the FCOA guidelines that make it no longer an NCAA-wide permissive legislation, but rather a legislation targeted solely at members of the FBS. Now, that won't happen (many FCS/I-AAA schools want to pay their basketball players). Further, the FCS schools could push for the ability for conferences and subdivisions to enact said rules prohibiting members from following permissive legislation. Again, if they can't get traction amongst NCAA members, too bad.*

It's like being a member of a condo association. You knew the association existed and had rules when you bought your property. Just because you now desire the ability to paint a penis on your roof, doesn't mean that you can do so. Or cry foul when the association stops you. Associations are, by definition, voluntary.

*I understand that the reason this can't change is because the NCAA is using FCOA as a legal fiction to defend their warped concept of amateurism against further litigation by aggrieved former college athletes, and they hope that holding up this tattered rag in front of them will delay judicial abolition of many of the NCAA's core tenants. But, I again say, Liberty and other FCS schools voluntarily agreed to join this cartel, and the fact that the cartel has turned out to be of questionable legality does not absolve Liberty from following NCAA rules and guidelines while they still exist and Liberty is still a member.

[UAalum72]

Finally, I won't go into the details here, but conferences and subdivisions cannot enact a rule prohibiting their members from following NCAA-wide approved permissive legislation, which is what FCOA is.Like scholarships in the Ivy, the Pioneer, and (formerly) PL, the AI rather than NCAA qualifications,, or limited schollies in the NEC? Or are you saying those aren't (airquotes) rules, they're just (airquotes)frowned upon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Like scholarships in the Ivy, the Pioneer, and (formerly) PL, the AI rather than NCAA qualifications,, or limited schollies in the NEC? Or are you saying those aren't (airquotes) rules, they're just (airquotes)frowned upon.

The Ivy cannot prevent its members from competing in NCAA championships over scholarships. In the case of the IL, all eight of them choose to not compete for an NCAA championship in football so that point is moot. If my understanding is correct, if a school wished to challenge this, they could - they could announce that, if they were considered for a postseason bid they would accept, they would be considered. But no IL institution has elected to do this because they don't wish to endanger their overall membership in the IL (which is understandable).

The PL prevented Fordham from competing for a PL championship (and its autobid), but it did not prevent it from fielding an FCS team nor did it preclude Fordham from qualifying as an at-large team.

Similarly, the PFL disqualified USD from its PFL championship because of "violations in conference rules", but that didn't preclude USD from at-large qualification for the NCAAs. Same with the NEC. If a school decided to offer 63 conventional scholarships and violated the NEC's bylaws, they could be prevented from qualifying for the NEC championship but still would be under consideration for an at-large bid.

[UAalum72]

Exactly. The Big South can pass a rule nixing the NCAA-allowed FCOA, Liberty can ignore the league rule, and the BSodenies them the autobid.

Or you're saying no conference can effectively enforce such a rule except by evicting the offender from the conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. The Big South can pass a rule nixing the NCAA-allowed FCOA, Liberty can ignore the league rule, and the BSodenies them the autobid.

Or you're saying no conference can effectively enforce such a rule except by evicting the offender from the conference.

It could pass a rule saying that Liberty football is exempt from BSC championships, but what sort of rule could they pass to do that? They can't retroactively define FCOA to mean one thing for football and another thing for basketball. The BSC now is a conference that defines ALL its scholarships as including FCOA and REQUIRES that its members offer it for basketball. They pointedly have not attempted to restrict the definition for football - because they can't.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FCS conferences can set up rules to limit the total number of scholarships offered. They cannot make rules that restricts the definition of what a scholarship is. FCOA is an athletic department-wide definition that is basically an all-or-nothing definition (though schools can, of course, choose to offer it or not at a sport level). A conference can require that a school offer it for a specific sport. But it cannot restrict the definition for other sports.

[KPSUL]

Blah, blah, blah.

Any Christian university now is bombarded with hate from liberal/leftit elitists.

Another reason why liberals are wackos. If you dont agree with their propoganda then you are classified as a bigot or racist. They are the racists trying to classify people into groups.

I hope Liberty finds a FBS home because they would be a very good member for any conference.

Your arguing all by yourself, about something no one else is even discussing. It doesn't even look like your winning. But it is fun to observe!