Scheduling Division II teams - to be continued or not?

[bonarae]

This is currently a hot-button topic on another FCS board. To quote its OP:


I think we can all agree that the scheduling of D-II schools should either be banned or at the very least limited to one. Beyond that, though, do you guys have a philosophy behind which particular D-II you would choose? Close in geography to minimize the travel cost payout? A complete wuss D-II? A power D-II to give your squad something of a challenge before finally putting them away?

This should be an interesting debate. Scheduling a D-II is a risk no matter how you slice it. A bad showing in a win or even a loss would be HORRIBLE (even with a FBS win; see what happened to Bozo a few years back). A win won't look good (even if it's a shellacking) because it's "expected." But scheduling a reasonably close D-II could foster good collegial feeling in the area. That's one bennie I can think of, but it would likely be easier for eastern schools to pull off, as those of us out west have fewer D-II options. It could ALSO serve as a buffer to recover after a tough FBS game. Those back east could probably more easily serve that function by scheduling a lower-tier FCS game due to the higher concentration of potential FCS candidates.


It's really a risk no matter what to the FCS team having playoff hopes, for the reasons stated above. SWAC/MEAC teams can still continue to play the likes of Tuskegee et al. during the season, because these games don't matter much to you guys in the Classics you're planning to play in the years to come; only standings (and tiebreakers) matter anyway to you.

PFL teams ducking most D-II teams (which should make more sense than the NAIA/USCAA/ASCAA teams they're currently filling their schedules with) is another topic.

[Daytripper]

Speaking from personal experience, I would not suggest scheduling power DII schools....xoopsx

[FormerPokeCenter]

Power Div II's seem to have something to prove when they play FCS schools...

And, it hasn't been that long ago that NDSU was a Power Div II...

[Libertine]

Super Hornet and Bonarae are the same person?! I did not see that coming.

Now that I think of it though, the pieces are starting to fall into place.

[Model Citizen]

PFL teams ducking most D-II teams (which should make more sense than the NAIA/USCAA/ASCAA teams they're currently filling their schedules with) is another topic.

It's 2015 now. Try to keep up with the schedules.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scheduling a D-II team is a risk for playoff participation - in theory, if you look at the rules for playoff participation. In practice, however, it only really harms you if your overall body of work has multiple D-II games one it. If you have an FBS team on there and a D-II team and you go 8-3, nobody gives a crap, similar to how nobody ever complains about Alabama's "schedule strength" even though they routinely schedule FCS schools.

There is no need to punish schools for scheduling multiple D-IIs because 1) so few teams do it and 2) doing so is at-large suicide.

[Smitty]

If we stop scheduling Div II schools, then we have no room to complain when FBS schools also stop scheduling games with us. I don't mind scheduling 1 game for 2 years, then have 2 years off with regular or higher competition.

[BEAR]

I like playing Division II schools, especially one of the many from the state of Arkansas. We can't complain if the Big 5 conferences decide to NOT schedule an FCS if we don't play DIIs. Same thing in their eyes. Now power DIIs like the gorillas or the like are suicidal missions for FCS teams..especially lower level FCS.

[aceinthehole]

For many schools I think it comes down to a simple question: Schedule a D-II school or take another BYE week?

I don't think many schools try to schedule D-II teams (or NAIA), they basically don't have a choice, especially if they want the HOME game.

Now that the NEC is down to just 7 teams and a 6-game league slate, members have to find at least 5 non-conference opponents each year. For some schools it is next to impossible to get 5 non-conference opponents, especially if you want at least 2 of those to be HOME games. Saint Francis just isn't going to play an 11-game schedule if they don't get at least one, and sometimes two D-II teams on the schedule.

2015 NEC Non-Dinvsion I opponents
Bryant - vs. American International
Duquesne - vs. Kentucky Christian (NAIA)
CCSU - vs. Bowie State
Robert Morris - vs. Notre Dame, OH (NAIA)
Sacred Heart - vs. St. Anselm's
Saint Francis - vs. University of Faith (NAIA)
Wagner - no D-II, 2 games @ FBS (BYU, Rice)

For the record, these NAIA games are awful - much rather see D-II teams on the schedule.

[Bisonator]

You simply can't paint all teams from any division with a broad brush. Top DII teams are better then a lot of FCS and vice versa with FCS to FBS. Also when you get bought out late and have to scramble to fill a schedule sometimes it's inevitable. IMO it all works itself out in the end anyway.

[catamount man]

Heck, I want WCU to schedule Tusculum again. We owe them for that embarrassment in 2010. GO CATS!

[BEAR]

Scheduling another week off might not be a bad idea for some upper level FCS teams.

Benefits:
A week of injury rest.
An extra week to gameplan for the next FCS team.
Avoid injuries in games that don't count toward the playoffs.
Most of these games are true blowouts.

Negatives:
Fans miss a home game.
Shortens the teams schedule.
Team could practice on the opponent.

UCA's non FCS opponents by year:
2016-2014- No DIIs or lower
2013- Nebraska Kearney- not close.
2012- Bacone College- Major blowout.
2011- Henderson State- no a pretty easy win if I remember correctly. Coach was trying different players for the first game of year.
2010- Elizabeth City State- not even close.

So at least for some teams a DII is pretty much a win. Now a game against an upper DII would be a nightmare!

[Twentysix]

Power Div II's seem to have something to prove when they play FCS schools...

And, it hasn't been that long ago that NDSU was a Power Div II...

Indeed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=232490149

;)

[WileECoyote06]

Scheduling another week off might not be a bad idea for some upper level FCS teams.

Benefits:
A week of injury rest.
An extra week to gameplan for the next FCS team.
Avoid injuries in games that don't count toward the playoffs.
Most of these games are true blowouts.

Negatives:
Fans miss a home game.
Shortens the teams schedule.
Team could practice on the opponent.

UCA's non FCS opponents by year:
2016-2014- No DIIs or lower
2013- Nebraska Kearney- not close.
2012- Bacone College- Major blowout.
2011- Henderson State- no a pretty easy win if I remember correctly. Coach was trying different players for the first game of year.
2010- Elizabeth City State- not even close.

So at least for some teams a DII is pretty much a win. Now a game against an upper DII would be a nightmare!

And with a missed home game, you also decrease your revenue.

[RichH2]

Rather hypocritical IMO, to complain about possible FBS bans and simultaneously opt to ban FCS from scheduling D Ii.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Indeed.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/boxscore?gameId=232490149

;)

I'll see your NDSU "upset" and raise you a Griz loss to Chadron State! ;)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'll see your NDSU "upset" and raise you a Griz loss to Chadron State! ;)

The Griz never ****ing lost to Chadron.

[centennial]

Rather hypocritical IMO, to complain about possible FBS bans and simultaneously opt to ban FCS from scheduling D Ii.
This. Plenty of D2 schools that are better than non-scholarship, low FCS schools.

[FormerPokeCenter]

The Griz never ****ing lost to Chadron.


I sit corrected. it was Montana State who lost to the Eagles.....

At least I got the state right! ;)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I sit corrected. it was Montana State who lost to the Eagles.....

At least I got the state right! ;)

You'd do yourself a favor by not getting the state correct in that situation.

I'd like to say we are friends FPC but at this point that is tenuous at best.

:D

[JSUBison]

For many schools I think it comes down to a simple question: Schedule a D-II school or take another BYE week?

I don't think many schools try to schedule D-II teams (or NAIA), they basically don't have a choice, especially if they want the HOME game.

Now that the NEC is down to just 7 teams and a 6-game league slate, members have to find at least 5 non-conference opponents each year. For some schools it is next to impossible to get 5 non-conference opponents, especially if you want at least 2 of those to be HOME games. Saint Francis just isn't going to play an 11-game schedule if they don't get at least one, and sometimes two D-II teams on the schedule.

2015 NEC Non-Dinvsion I opponents
Bryant - vs. American International
Duquesne - vs. Kentucky Christian (NAIA)
CCSU - vs. Bowie State
Robert Morris - vs. Notre Dame, OH (NAIA)
Sacred Heart - vs. St. Anselm's
Saint Francis - vs. University of Faith (NAIA)
Wagner - no D-II, 2 games @ FBS (BYU, Rice)

For the record, these NAIA games are awful - much rather see D-II teams on the schedule.

Agree, but every so often a horrible joke of an FCS team will play a NAIA team and get stomped. Not even toe to toe close, but beat down in every facet.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Agree, but every so often a horrible joke of an FCS team will play a NAIA team and get stomped. Not even toe to toe close, but beat down in every facet.



I approve this post!!!

Check rep!

[hebmskebm]

For many schools I think it comes down to a simple question: Schedule a D-II school or take another BYE week?

I don't think many schools try to schedule D-II teams (or NAIA), they basically don't have a choice, especially if they want the HOME game.

Now that the NEC is down to just 7 teams and a 6-game league slate, members have to find at least 5 non-conference opponents each year. For some schools it is next to impossible to get 5 non-conference opponents, especially if you want at least 2 of those to be HOME games. Saint Francis just isn't going to play an 11-game schedule if they don't get at least one, and sometimes two D-II teams on the schedule.

2015 NEC Non-Dinvsion I opponents
Bryant - vs. American International
Duquesne - vs. Kentucky Christian (NAIA)
CCSU - vs. Bowie State
Robert Morris - vs. Notre Dame, OH (NAIA)
Sacred Heart - vs. St. Anselm's
Saint Francis - vs. University of Faith (NAIA)
Wagner - no D-II, 2 games @ FBS (BYU, Rice)

For the record, these NAIA games are awful - much rather see D-II teams on the schedule.

Couple of small errors there, Notre Dame Ohio is now DII, and the University of Faith is not NAIA, because it's not accredited, and not really a school at all.

I'm of the opinion that one sub-D1 game per year (against any division) is ok; anymore than that is weak sauce.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Thankfully the Patriot League schools have rarely, if ever scheduled D2 opponents.

Lehigh hasn't had one since 1985, IUP. It's been 20+ years for Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross too.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thankfully the Patriot League schools have rarely, if ever scheduled D2 opponents.

Lehigh hasn't had one since 1985, IUP. It's been 20+ years for Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross too.....

Fordham played one not all that long ago... and lost. Assumption. Granted it was before the fantastic run of the last two years. The game only happened since a former FU coordinator was the head coach, I think.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Fordham played one not all that long ago... and lost. Assumption. Granted it was before the fantastic run of the last two years. The game only happened since a former FU coordinator was the head coach, I think.

I remember that game. That is only D2 game by a current PL team this century. I'm glad the PL programs have had a strong stance against D2 games.

I believe someone backed out on Fordham. Maybe it was a result of Northeastern or Hofstra dropping football?

Bucknell's last D2 game was in 1995, Southern Connecticut State....

[hebmskebm]

I remember that game. That is only D2 game by a current PL team this century. I'm glad the PL programs have had a strong stance against D2 games.

I believe someone backed out on Fordham. Maybe it was a result of Northeastern or Hofstra dropping football?

Bucknell's last D2 game was in 1995, Southern Connecticut State....

Not quite. Fordham also played Lock Haven in 2012, and won 55-0.

[Sader87]

I don't think Holy Cross has evah played a D2 school...since HC went 1-AA anyway. The Yankee Conference was D2 in the 1970s, so all those games against UMass, UConn, UNH etc were against D2 teams.

Not against it, but I don't think it's necessary in our case i.e. there are plenty of FCS schools for HC to play in the Northeast

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not quite. Fordham also played Lock Haven in 2012, and won 55-0.

Ehh, way to make the PL look bad Fordham...:D...jk

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Thankfully the Patriot League schools have rarely, if ever scheduled D2 opponents.

Lehigh hasn't had one since 1985, IUP. It's been 20+ years for Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross too.....


Pretty easy for eastern FCS to find FCS OOC games compared to western schools like NDSU and Montana. Sometimes a D2 is all that is willing to come and play a game.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Pretty easy for eastern FCS to find FCS OOC games compared to western schools like NDSU and Montana. Sometimes a D2 is all that is willing to come and play a game.

The western schools need to be more willing to head other FCS teams then. I understand the logistics of the Big Sky teams but sometimes a road game is the better option. Some years you only get 5 homes instead of 6 or 7 so be it. If you're a broke school and can't afford to get on a plane, which NDSU and Montana are not, then maybe FCS and D1 athletics isn't for you.

[FormerPokeCenter]

You'd do yourself a favor by not getting the state correct in that situation.

I'd like to say we are friends FPC but at this point that is tenuous at best.

:D


It was an honest mistake! See, MSUBobcat donates heavily to the ride, as have you, Alpha, AZGrizFan and, to a lesser, height-based proportion, Grizo.

So, you see, it's that Montana generosity that threw me there for a second!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The Griz never ****ing lost to Chadron.

The Griz have never beaten a FBS team, which Montana State did the year they lost to Chadron.....

[CrazyCat]

The western schools need to be more willing to head other FCS teams then. I understand the logistics of the Big Sky teams but sometimes a road game is the better option. Some years you only get 5 homes instead of 6 or 7 so be it. If you're a broke school and can't afford to get on a plane, which NDSU and Montana are not, then maybe FCS and D1 athletics isn't for you.

Doesn't that work both ways ? You could also blame eastern schools for not flying out west?

Just from info. on this years schedule. I don't think OOC scheduling is as easy as some think it is.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Doesn't that work both ways ? You could also blame eastern schools for not flying out west?

Just from info. on this years schedule. I don't think OOC scheduling is as easy as some think it is.

The Eastern schools aren't the ones complaining about lack of FCS games. If a person complains about lack of work in their field in a particular area while refusing to move that's their problem...

[bonarae]

It's 2015 now. Try to keep up with the schedules.

But some of their opponents are still NAIA or even non-accredited schools.... I'd rather see their schedules full of NCAA opponents. xrulesx


For many schools I think it comes down to a simple question: Schedule a D-II school or take another BYE week?

I don't think many schools try to schedule D-II teams (or NAIA), they basically don't have a choice, especially if they want the HOME game.

..

For the record, these NAIA games are awful - much rather see D-II teams on the schedule.

When will the Ivies try to play down? Or never it will be? I'd rather see a bye week on the Ivies' schedule than constricting their schedules with PFL teams... xsmhx


Rather hypocritical IMO, to complain about possible FBS bans and simultaneously opt to ban FCS from scheduling D Ii.

I'm not sure what to do with this. The FBS is rather greedy these days, only thinking for themselves... xsmhx


This. Plenty of D2 schools that are better than non-scholarship, low FCS schools.

OK, so should the Ivies play down after all (even one game a year against some NE-10 teams)?


Agree, but every so often a horrible joke of an FCS team will play a NAIA team and get stomped. Not even toe to toe close, but beat down in every facet.

Horrible joke? The PFL? Yes, I agree with him. Mercer's first year in the FCS had a close game with a NAIA opponent but won in the end. Good thing they've moved on to full-scholarship football in the SoCon. Hopefully ETSU and Kennesaw State shouldn't have similar close calls this season.


Thankfully the Patriot League schools have rarely, if ever scheduled D2 opponents.

Lehigh hasn't had one since 1985, IUP. It's been 20+ years for Lafayette, Colgate and Holy Cross too.....

Too lazy to look up the schedules, but when was the last Ivy game against a current D-II football member? Equivalent to the dead-ball era in baseball?


Pretty easy for eastern FCS to find FCS OOC games compared to western schools like NDSU and Montana. Sometimes a D2 is all that is willing to come and play a game.

Not sure if all FCS east of the Rockies are willing to play D-II, because not all will.


Doesn't that work both ways ? You could also blame eastern schools for not flying out west?

Just from info. on this years schedule. I don't think OOC scheduling is as easy as some think it is.

For the Ivies, we fans are complaining of watered-down schedules today compared to 5-10 years ago. The only answers are to expand the schedule and play down (i.e. D-II) and up (i.e. western and midwestern FCS and P5 FBS).

[bonarae]

The Eastern schools aren't the ones complaining about lack of FCS games. If a person complains about lack of work in their field in a particular area while refusing to move that's their problem...

Yes. Some eastern FCS are reluctant to continue their D-II series...

BTW, I'm not SuperHornet (he is actually a feminist though) because we cheer for different teams.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The Griz have never beaten a FBS team, which Montana State did the year they lost to Chadron.....

Don't start **** with me owl, learn something before running your damn mouth. We are 2-0 against Oregon State an 4-1 against Idaho since they went up. We have more FBS wins than MSU does.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nothing against MSU btw just ain't watching some interloper act like he knows something about it all.:D

[Sader87]

Too lazy to look up the schedules, but when was the last Ivy game against a current D-II football member? Equivalent to the dead-ball era in baseball?

Harvard played currently D3 Tufts as late as 1965 and 1966.....and actually lost to the Jumbos in 1956 xsmiley_wix

[Seawolf97]

I remember that game. That is only D2 game by a current PL team this century. I'm glad the PL programs have had a strong stance against D2 games.

I believe someone backed out on Fordham. Maybe it was a result of Northeastern or Hofstra dropping football?

Bucknell's last D2 game was in 1995, Southern Connecticut State....
Thats what caused StonyBrook to play several D2 programs when Hofstra dropped their program we had to fill in the blanks. Going forward we will not play any D2 programs from what I under stand.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Don't start **** with me owl, learn something before running your damn mouth. We are 2-0 against Oregon State an 4-1 against Idaho since they went up. We have more FBS wins than MSU does.

I honestly thought Montana was the big name school without a FBS win. If not the 'Griz then who is that school?

[MU22]

I honestly thought Montana was the big name school without a FBS win. If not the 'Griz then who is that school?

Used to be Georgia Southern, but they got off that list in their last appearance under the FCS/I-AA banner.

[DFW HOYA]

Too lazy to look up the schedules, but when was the last Ivy game against a current D-II football member? Equivalent to the dead-ball era in baseball?


Not a lot of Eastern D-II teams to choose from, so I'll say Springfield at Harvard, 1952.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Not a lot of Eastern D-II teams to choose from, so I'll say Springfield at Harvard, 1952.

Penn, Princeton, Columbia and Cornell have relatively easy access to the PSAC schools.

I'd still like to see IUP, Bloomsburg and maybe West Chester go FCS. It likely will never happen but it should imo....

[McNeese72]

I sit corrected. it was Montana State who lost to the Eagles.....

At least I got the state right! ;)


Ooooooohhh! That was like saying McNeese lost to North Alabama one year. ;)


Doc

[walliver]

There is a lot of regional variation in FCS vs. D2 games. Most competitive FCS teams would like to play lower-level FCS teams for an easy win, but there are large geographic areas where low-level FCS teams are rare. In the Southeast, once you get past Stetson, Campbell, Jacksonville and Davidson, there are slim pickings for FCS easy-win home games. In the West, there are even fewer options.

[Catatonic]

There is a lot of regional variation in FCS vs. D2 games. Most competitive FCS teams would like to play lower-level FCS teams for an easy win, but there are large geographic areas where low-level FCS teams are rare. In the Southeast, once you get past Stetson, Campbell, Jacksonville and Davidson, there are slim pickings for FCS easy-win home games. In the West, there are even fewer options.

Aren' there some pretty weak HBCU's in the Southeast, as well as start/move ups like Kennesaw or East Tenn?

[FormerPokeCenter]

Ooooooohhh! That was like saying McNeese lost to North Alabama one year. ;)


Doc


Not even remotely close, Doc. McNeese is IN SW Louisiana.....it was never named the U of SW La., ;)

[McNeese72]

Not even remotely close, Doc. McNeese is IN SW Louisiana.....it was never named the U of SW La., ;)

I was referring to the rivalry aspect of it. ;)

Doc

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I was referring to the rivalry aspect of it. ;)

Doc

Yeah, don't know how he missed that...it was pretty clear.

He did do a great job of covering in his prior post about how great all of Montanans are though. xlolx

[Go Green]

Not a lot of Eastern D-II teams to choose from, so I'll say Springfield at Harvard, 1952.

Yale played then D-II Morgan State in 1984. Columbia played then D-III Villanova around the same time. Don't know if Merchant Marine was D-II or D-III when Cornell played them in the early 1980s.

Davidson yo-yo'd between divisions throughout the 1980s. They had a few games against Ivy teams then.

[BisonFan02]

NDSU all time series record:

Jamestown College - 7-0-2
Dayton - 0-1
Drake - 0-2
Emporia St - 0-1
Georgia Southern. - 3-0

xlolx

[FormerPokeCenter]

I was referring to the rivalry aspect of it. ;)

Doc



If every game is a one-sided ass whipping, it's NOT, technically speaking, a rivalry ;)

[PAllen]

NDSU all time series record:

Jamestown College - 7-0-2
Dayton - 0-1
Drake - 0-2
Emporia St - 0-1
Georgia Southern. - 3-0

xlolx

Clearly, the PFL and Division II are tougher than the Sunbelt. ;)

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson yo-yo'd between divisions throughout the 1980s. They had a few games against Ivy teams then.

Davidson was I-AA until 1989, moved to D-III in 1990 and then bumped up to the Pioneer in 1993.

[I-AA Fan]

There should be absolutely no scheduling of ANY inter-divisional games. This includes "money games" or sub-I-AA games.

[I-AA Fan]

Davidson was a major college. They played in the University Division. If I remember correctly ...they went DIII because of reclassification issues & could not go back to DII, so they dropped down to DIII for the 3-years of probation, in order to keep their scholarships. This started when the Patriot League moved from DII to I-AA.

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson was a major college. They played in the University Division. If I remember correctly ...they went DIII because of reclassification issues & could not go back to DII, so they dropped down to DIII for the 3-years of probation, in order to keep their scholarships. This started when the Patriot League moved from DII to I-AA.

There was no probation. Davidson was non-competitive in the SoCon once they dropped scholarships in 1973. Over the last ten years Davidson competed as a non-scholarship team in the Southern Conference (1977-86), the Wildcats did not win a single conference game. Of its 32 wins over the ten years, 27 came against sub-Division I squads.

The Patriot League was intended to right-size the Wildcats with more comparable liberal arts schools. Davidson was a founding member of the PL (which was always I-AA and was never a D-II conference) but quickly 1-18-1 in its first two seasons and gave notice to withdraw, leading the PL to quickly add a Fordham team in their place moving up from D-III (and the Rams suffered for the next 10 years as a result).

Davidson withdrew from the SoCon in all sports and then joined the Big South. Given how poor they did in the PL, Div. II wasn't going to be an option either. They voluntarily went to D-III in football as an independent.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Davidson was a major college. They played in the University Division. If I remember correctly ...they went DIII because of reclassification issues & could not go back to DII, so they dropped down to DIII for the 3-years of probation, in order to keep their scholarships. This started when the Patriot League moved from DII to I-AA.

That doesn't sound right. More likely Davidson was interested in competing in D-I hoops but were only interested in competing in D-III football, so they "reclassified" in 1983 when given the chance, along with Dayton, Butler, and a slew of other schools. With the "Dayton Rule" they then were required to reclassify football back to D-I, and for w awhile the "non-scholarship" Patriot League seemed like it would fit.

Davidson quit the PL mostly due to the fact they were so far away from all the other schools - it was a lot of travel.

[Catatonic]

There should be absolutely no scheduling of ANY inter-divisional games. This includes "money games" or sub-I-AA games.

Are you including FBS vs FCS games, since both are technically in the same division?

[PAllen]

There should be absolutely no scheduling of ANY inter-divisional games. This includes "money games" or sub-I-AA games.

To some extent I agree. Where I disagree is that many schools have traditional and regional rivalries with teams in other divisions/subdivisions. Lehigh has a decent history with Rutgers. Navy and Penn State have been played more than a few times as well, although PSU is way out of our league at this point, and I could do without the blood bath. Holy Cross and Colgate have Boston College and Syracuse. Others in the NE have UMass and UConn. It wasn't that long ago that Lafayette threatened to drop to Division III. You better believe that had that happened, there would have been significant numbers of alums on both sides who wanted that series to continue regardless of divisions. If Lehigh ever has to fill a slot in a schedule with a sub Div. I opponent, I wouldn't be too upset with Gettysburg (once a long time rival). All that said, I see no reason for Lehigh (or any PL team) to get on a plane to play Oregon State any time in the foreseeable future.

[DFW HOYA]

All that said, I see no reason for Lehigh (or any PL team) to get on a plane to play Oregon State any time in the foreseeable future.

It's coming. Fordham already has Tulsa and Hawaii on future schedules, and where Fordham goes, everyone but Georgetown follows.

[Sader87]

I think the FU-Tulsa game(s) have been scratched but I get your point.

Should Holy Cross play a USC or a LSU??? No...but I see nothing wrong with PL schools playing local (and in some cases long-term rivals) like Army, BC, Rutgers, Syracuse et. al.

[BEAR]

I think the FU-Tulsa game(s) have been scratched but I get your point.

Should Holy Cross play a USC or a LSU??? No...but I see nothing wrong with PL schools playing local (and in some cases long-term rivals) like Army, BC, Rutgers, Syracuse et. al.

Good point. FCS teams playing regional FBS teams, especially mid-tier to low tier teams makes sense.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've said this elsewhere - I'd be absolutely thrilled to see Lehigh play LSU. I'd see such a game as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, borne only by the fact that a former Lehigh QB is now LSU's AD.

I think the key here with these FBS games is moderation. If you're seeking games for checks and playing LSU this year, Illinois next year, USC the following year - the games aren't events anymore. Same as if you're playing Louisiana-Lafayette this year, Old Dominion next year, Appalachian State the following year - those, to me, would not be event games for Lehigh, those would just be playing FBS games for the sake of playing FBS games. I'd much rather schedule a game with Montana or NDSU than App for that reason - against NDSU, you're testing yourself against a team that the best in FCS. Lehigh wouldn't have anything to prove against App.

But there are event games. Playing Michigan, Alabama, LSU, Stanford... those are once-in-a-lifetime.

[DFW HOYA]

I see nothing wrong with PL schools playing local (and in some cases long-term rivals) like Army, BC, Rutgers, Syracuse et. al.

Sign me up. (Will I see it? No.)

[McNeese72]

I've said this elsewhere - I'd be absolutely thrilled to see Lehigh play LSU. I'd see such a game as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, borne only by the fact that a former Lehigh QB is now LSU's AD.

I think the key here with these FBS games is moderation. If you're seeking games for checks and playing LSU this year, Illinois next year, USC the following year - the games aren't events anymore. Same as if you're playing Louisiana-Lafayette this year, Old Dominion next year, Appalachian State the following year - those, to me, would not be event games for Lehigh, those would just be playing FBS games for the sake of playing FBS games. I'd much rather schedule a game with Montana or NDSU than App for that reason - against NDSU, you're testing yourself against a team that the best in FCS. Lehigh wouldn't have anything to prove against App.

But there are event games. Playing Michigan, Alabama, LSU, Stanford... those are once-in-a-lifetime.

Playing in Tiger Stadium and being on the sidelines taking photos makes for a very fun game. We did it in 2010 and get to do it again in 2015. And the players love it. Also, it helps our ailing athletic checkbook at McNeese.

Doc

[bonarae]

There should be absolutely no scheduling of ANY inter-divisional games. This includes "money games" or sub-I-AA games.

The Ivies have done that since the Buoniconti (?) scandal, with a few exceptions like Yale-Army in 2014.


Are you including FBS vs FCS games, since both are technically in the same division?

I think he said yes.


To some extent I agree. Where I disagree is that many schools have traditional and regional rivalries with teams in other divisions/subdivisions. Lehigh has a decent history with Rutgers. Navy and Penn State have been played more than a few times as well, although PSU is way out of our league at this point, and I could do without the blood bath. Holy Cross and Colgate have Boston College and Syracuse. Others in the NE have UMass and UConn. It wasn't that long ago that Lafayette threatened to drop to Division III. You better believe that had that happened, there would have been significant numbers of alums on both sides who wanted that series to continue regardless of divisions. If Lehigh ever has to fill a slot in a schedule with a sub Div. I opponent, I wouldn't be too upset with Gettysburg (once a long time rival). All that said, I see no reason for Lehigh (or any PL team) to get on a plane to play Oregon State any time in the foreseeable future.

The Ivies' alumni want these kinds of games for football, but the AD's and coaches say no.


Should Holy Cross play a USC or a LSU??? No...but I see nothing wrong with PL schools playing local (and in some cases long-term rivals) like Army, BC, Rutgers, Syracuse et. al.

The Ivies should also get out of their "comfort zones" in the PFL and PL and play midwestern and southern scholarship FCS teams.


Good point. FCS teams playing regional FBS teams, especially mid-tier to low tier teams makes sense.

But our sample size in the region is very limited now... xsmhx


I think the key here with these FBS games is moderation. If you're seeking games for checks and playing LSU this year, Illinois next year, USC the following year - the games aren't events anymore. Same as if you're playing Louisiana-Lafayette this year, Old Dominion next year, Appalachian State the following year - those, to me, would not be event games for Lehigh, those would just be playing FBS games for the sake of playing FBS games. I'd much rather schedule a game with Montana or NDSU than App for that reason - against NDSU, you're testing yourself against a team that the best in FCS. Lehigh wouldn't have anything to prove against App.

But there are event games. Playing Michigan, Alabama, LSU, Stanford... those are once-in-a-lifetime.

I agree with LFN. Event games should become routine (i.e. every 5-10 seasons a team should play them; not a home-and-home agreement). Are Ivies agreeable to playing once-in-a-lifetime games against FBS? Not with our current schedule design. xbawlingx

[Go Green]

The Ivies have done that since the Buoniconti (?) scandal, with a few exceptions like Yale-Army in 2014.



I thought it was because we kept on getting our asses kicked by Division I-A teams in the 1980s and early 1990s.

If there was more to the story, that's news to me. Would appreciate some elaboration.

[Go...gate]

Yale played then D-II Morgan State in 1984. Columbia played then D-III Villanova around the same time. Don't know if Merchant Marine was D-II or D-III when Cornell played them in the early 1980s.

Davidson yo-yo'd between divisions throughout the 1980s. They had a few games against Ivy teams then.

Davidson played Pennsylvania home and home in 1984-85, hosted Princeton in 1987, and played Dartmouth home-and-home in 1987-88. Davidson lost all five games.

I believe USMMA was Division III when they played Cornell.

[Go...gate]

Davidson was a major college. They played in the University Division. If I remember correctly ...they went DIII because of reclassification issues & could not go back to DII, so they dropped down to DIII for the 3-years of probation, in order to keep their scholarships. This started when the Patriot League moved from DII to I-AA.

The Patriot League was never Division II. Always I-AA/FCS.

[CHIP72]

Not quite. Fordham also played Lock Haven in 2012, and won 55-0.

FWIW, Lock Haven is a perennially weak Division II football team.

[CHIP72]

Where I disagree is that many schools have traditional and regional rivalries with teams in other divisions/subdivisions. Lehigh has a decent history with Rutgers. Navy and Penn State have been played more than a few times as well, although PSU is way out of our league at this point, and I could do without the blood bath. Holy Cross and Colgate have Boston College and Syracuse. Others in the NE have UMass and UConn. It wasn't that long ago that Lafayette threatened to drop to Division III. You better believe that had that happened, there would have been significant numbers of alums on both sides who wanted that series to continue regardless of divisions. If Lehigh ever has to fill a slot in a schedule with a sub Div. I opponent, I wouldn't be too upset with Gettysburg (once a long time rival). All that said, I see no reason for Lehigh (or any PL team) to get on a plane to play Oregon State any time in the foreseeable future.

Gettysburg is a Division III school. I hope Lehigh (or any other Patriot League team besides non-scholarship Georgetown) never plays a Division III again unless maybe in Lehigh's (or Lafayette's) case it is nearby Moravian or Muhlenberg (the latter of whom I believe used to play Lehigh and Lafayette back in the day before the schools diverged in terms of athletics emphasis).

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Patriot League schools playing Division II schools. It would actually be kind of cool to see the Pennsylvania-based Patriot League teams play some PSAC (Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference) teams, especially those that are nearby. Games like Lehigh/Kutztown, Lafayette/East Stroudsburg, or Bucknell/Bloomsburg would generate local interest (though the Bison might be in serious jeopardy of losing to Bloomsburg).

[PAllen]

Gettysburg is a Division III school. I hope Lehigh (or any other Patriot League team besides non-scholarship Georgetown) never plays a Division III again unless maybe in Lehigh's (or Lafayette's) case it is nearby Moravian or Muhlenberg (the latter of whom I believe used to play Lehigh and Lafayette back in the day before the schools diverged in terms of athletics emphasis).

I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Patriot League schools playing Division II schools. It would actually be kind of cool to see the Pennsylvania-based Patriot League teams play some PSAC (Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference) teams, especially those that are nearby. Games like Lehigh/Kutztown, Lafayette/East Stroudsburg, or Bucknell/Bloomsburg would generate local interest (though the Bison might be in serious jeopardy of losing to Bloomsburg).

Yes, Muhlenberg used to play Lehigh every now and again. If it came down to picking Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, or Gettysburg to fill a late hole in the schedule, I'd much rather see Gettysburg. The historical ties are there, and they're not all that far away. I figure that if you're going to kick the crap out of somebody, it should be someone you have some ties with. None of the above games should be considered as anything but a practice when it comes to playoff consideration.

[RichH2]

Yes, Muhlenberg used to play Lehigh every now and again. If it came down to picking Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, or Gettysburg to fill a late hole in the schedule, I'd much rather see Gettysburg. The historical ties are there, and they're not all that far away. I figure that if you're going to kick the crap out of somebody, it should be someone you have some ties with. None of the above games should be considered as anything but a practice when it comes to playoff consideration.
Agree. Played them every year during my day. Good competition. We were all College Div. Now, altho nostalgic ,doubt G'Burg would leap at the chance to get stomped. Stroudsburg and Kutztown would be much more competitive games.

[CHIP72]

Agree. Played them every year during my day. Good competition. We were all College Div. Now, altho nostalgic ,doubt G'Burg would leap at the chance to get stomped. East Stroudsburg and Kutztown would be much more competitive games.

Sort of related to the above, but I think the biggest gap in college football is between Division II and Division III. Now some of the perennial Division III powers (i.e. Wisconsin-Whitewater, Mount Union, and perhaps a couple other teams) could give even pretty good Division II (and for that matter, mediocre but not terrible Division I-AA/FCS) teams a real tussle, and some of the Division II dregs (Cheyney comes to mind in the PSAC) would lose to many of the decent or better Division III teams. However, an "average" Division II team would easily beat an "average" Division III most of the time, or at least a much higher percentage of the time than an "average" Division I-AA/FCS team would defeat an "average" Division II team IMO. Obviously the disparity between most Division I-AA/FCS teams and most Division III teams is even greater such that games between teams at the two levels would rarely be even semi-competitive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Mules for a while had a genuine rivalry with Lehigh from the 1910s to the 1950s, complete with excess and post-game melees for a while, though it never seemed to get to the same levels as Lehigh/Lafayette. In the mid-1950s Muhlenberg stopped showing up on the schedule for reasons unknown - they did still play Lafayette in 1955 after Lehigh stopped playing them, and Lehigh did schedule another small school, Albright, in its place.

Lehigh and Moravian have never played each other, mostly because Moravian only started sponsoring football in the 1960s or 1970s.

In 1951 Lehigh beat Muhlenberg 3-2. The Brown and White Headline: "LU Oozes 3-2 Victory over Mules", a game played in mud and slop. Up 3-0 due to a 14 yard field goal, Lehigh took a safety pinned deep, assuming correctly that the Mules wouldn't get anywhere close to scoring the rest of the game.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

The move up and away from the old MAC-College schools buried a lot of old relationships for Bucknell. Gettysburg was a fixture on the Bucknell schedule, an old MAC foe. These days the Bison have done as little travel as possible, staying within a few hundred miles of home. Luckily, finding FCS schools in the Northeast is not a challenge. There is no need to dip into D2 to schedule a Bloomsburg or West Chester (a MAC conference foe, too). Bucknell, with all of its football past, has never played St. Francis, the closest FCS program to Lewisburg, and has only played Morgan State once, a similar distance. Games like Duquesne, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Marist all fit well into the Bucknell admissions/parent/alumni geographic footprint, and involve a bus ride.

Out here in the West FCS life is different. Distances are so much bigger. NMSU would gain nothing by dropping down to the FCS level, as an example, because the closest FCS schools are almost 500 miles away, and most much further. I am unsurprised that Big Sky schools schedule non-conference games with each other because, aside from San Diego, they are the only teams out here. Not scheduling D2 is a luxury eastern schools can afford.