Another Patriot league Hijack

[carney2]

So, what's the early line on the Patriot league for 2015? In alphabetic order:

BUCKNELL - Took a BIG step forward in 2014, but really didn't beat anyone of note. Expectations are high, but freshmen will have to play a role.

COLGATE - Did not distinguish themselves in 2014 and were something of a muddled mess. What exactly do they need to return to the top of the standings? Looking at a probable 0-3 start in 2015 (Navy, UNH, Yale).

FORDHAM - The window of perceived excellence has probably closed. Is Nebrich coming back? Can Moorhead round up enough transfers to keep things rolling?

GEORGETOWN - Better than anyone expected in 2014. Still a hopeless situation.

HOLY CROSS - The talent meter is trending up, but the roller coaster performances continue. Need some Saturday to Saturday stability to replace the chaos we saw in 2014. Should get some help from a so-so schedule.

LAFAYETTE - Need an O-line. It's that simple - and that complicated. Another team with a probable 0-3 start (W&M, Delaware, Princeton).

LEHIGH - The gaping holes became more obvious as the 2014 season ground on. May have a freshman phenom QB in the recruiting class, but will that be enough?

Other than Georgetown as the bottom feeder, does anyone see an obvious top to bottom order here?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You forgot a likely 0-2 start for Fordham (Army, Villanova), Holy Cross doesn't have a cakewalk with road games vs. Monmouth and Towson, and Lehigh certainly won't be favored against JMU. Bucknell might end up carrying the non-conference flag in September, assuming they have their regularly-scheduled games against the likes of Marist or Duquesne.

My stab, in alphabetical order:

BUCKNELL - Came very close to knocking off Fordham last year, and pretty much everything of note returns. Will be no less than preseason No. 2.

COLGATE - Seemed like last year they were finding their feet, and by the end of the year had made some progress. Definitely a team to watch.

FORDHAM - Will most likely have the preseason POY in Chase Edmonds. A quick look at Fordham recruiting shows a much bigger class than prior years and fewer JuCo/Transfers, not suprising. Still will probably be legacy preseason No. 1 pick.

G-TOWN - Continue to defy the odds and put together wins and will continue to exceed their low expectations.

HOLY CROSS - Pujals can play, but they need more than that. Freshman class last year apparently a world-beater. They'll have to get it together fast to compete.

LAFAYETTE - Decided to show up at Yankee Stadium despite failing to show up for the majority of games last year, which was more than could be said for the pinstriped guys. Happily for Lehigh fans, 3/4s of the total offense during that game is graduating, RB Ross Scheuerman. That huge question mark on offense will probably keep them no higher than 4th in the preseason.

LEHIGH - So many questions, so few answers. Shaf probably will be the starter on opening day, if he's healthy, and he has the PL ROY Pelletier to throw to, but we may be relying on a trio of underclassmen to run the ball, including at least one freshman. Defense was a mess last year without an obvious solution. Hope is that the underclassmen took their lumps last year and will be much better and more focused this year, but how realistic is that?

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

For Lehigh and Colgate it comes down to hoping the new staffs put it together in their second season. The amount of turnover and change last year was a major contributing factor imo. Hopefully both teams can forge a better identity through spring ball. Lehigh is relying on a bigger DL and Botts year two plan. Colgate needs to get their offense figured out. The Raider defense improved dramatically in 2014.

If I were to pick a preseason order It would be...

1. Fordham - Moorhead staying would be huge, still not a preseason top 25 team....
2. Bucknell - The schedule will be tough...
3. Holy Cross - experience at QB
4. Lafayette - Because they beat Lehigh
5. Lehigh - need to prove last year was an aberration...
6. Colgate - Really struggled down the stretch
7. Georgetown - Will be competitive...

I think it's really wide open. I think Lehigh and Colgate can and will get it turned around. The question is how much. Lehigh's schedule will be easier....

[caribbeanhen]

So, what's the early line on the Patriot league for 2015? In alphabetic order:



LAFAYETTE - Need an O-line. It's that simple - and that complicated. Another team with a probable 0-3 start (W&M, Delaware, Princeton)


Don't pencil in 0-3 just yet, Delaware will be a very young football team and you get them in game 2

[Lehigh'98]

Have very little hope for Lehigh. Need a stellar FR class. Have to put Bucknell as the preseason favorites. Fordham a close 2nd. Rest is a crapshoot. Curious if HC can start winning some close games.

[BisonFan02]

All I know is....Lehigh will be, and still is, too high.

[Lehigh'98]

All I know is....Lehigh will be, and still is, too high.

Need some new jokes on here!!

[RichH2]

Thanks carney.
Bucknell will be tough every week but dont think they will live up to the high expectations.

Colgate. Inconsistent will continue to define their season.

Fordham. Nebrich???? Edmonds will keep their games exciting but the mass turnover in starters makes another big year unlikely
.
Geargetown. Competitive every week but mot too many wins.

Holy Cross. Pujols and....Gilmore has to fill in these blanks. Talent and speed has improved. Enough? Remains to be seen.

Lafayette. At this point could be one of the favorites if Frank finds an OL and a RB.

Lehigh. Healthy Shafniskey and depth of talent O will be fine. Andy needs to get D from embarrassingly atrocious to at least mediocre for a winning season.

[BisonFan02]

Need some new jokes on here!!

Georgetown can't get any lower?

[clenz]

Georgetown can't get any lower?
They'd be an okay pfl team.

Too leHIGH remains. Still funny

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[citdog]

Need some new jokes on here!!

quit being all le high and mighty it makes you seem dickish

[Sader87]

Lock: Holy Cross will invent still new ways in losing games next year.

[RichH2]

Lock: Holy Cross will invent still new ways in losing games next year.
Cross is a very traditional school. They will stick to their tried and true losing ways :)

[Lehigh'98]

quit being all le high and mighty it makes you seem dickish

Well then, I'll have to cut back on being constantle-high.

[UNHWildcat18]

Lock: Holy Cross will invent still new ways in losing games next year.

I think holy cross will actually take a step forward next year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think holy cross will actually take a step forward next year.

It certainly is possible. Key to me is how their defense comes together with their sophomore class.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

IMO, the coaching situations are interesting.

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

Coen should also see some added pressure with another below average season and loss to LC. He has the resources to get things turned around. Likewise with Hunt. I think another ugly year and some of the 'Gate faithful will start grumbling given what Biddle built....

Moorhead and Susan stock could grow even higher....

If there's no turnover in 2014/2015, I promise you there will be after next year.

[RichH2]

IMO, the coaching situations are interesting.

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

Coen should also see some added pressure with another below average season and loss to LC. He has the resources to get things turned around. Likewise with Hunt. I think another ugly year and some of the 'Gate faithful will start grumbling given what Biddle built....

Moorhead and Susan stock could grow even higher....

If there's no turnover in 2014/2015, I promise you there will be after next year.
Pretty much agree. Tavani regardless of record thete til he retires. Andy does have resources but interestingly LU spends the least in football related expenses of the schollie teams.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Pretty much agree. Tavani regardless of record thete til he retires. Andy does have resources but interestingly LU spends the least in football related expenses of the schollie teams.

Lehigh's program is well funded. Not factored into the budget number are donations and gifts. This where Lehigh and Fordham really excel...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Greg Schiano is sitting out there without a coaching job. If something were to open up in the Patriot League, would he take it?

[Lehigh'98]

Greg Schiano is sitting out there without a coaching job. If something were to open up in the Patriot League, would he take it?

Can't afford him. Doubt someone with as much success as him would come to PL

[ngineer]

For Schiano to take a PL job would be strange. If no HC opens up at FBS level, could like become a coordinator somewhere. Only if he had some real local interest to settle down would I see him taking a PL job.

[DFW HOYA]

IMO, the coaching situations are interesting.

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

Coen should also see some added pressure with another below average season and loss to LC. He has the resources to get things turned around. Likewise with Hunt. I think another ugly year and some of the 'Gate faithful will start grumbling given what Biddle built....

Moorhead and Susan stock could grow even higher....

If there's no turnover in 2014/2015, I promise you there will be after next year.

Are you missing a coach?

[ngineer]

I think the PL will be lumped even closer together in 2015 than last year...assuming Nebrich is gone. If he returns, then it's another year of chasing the Rams. Edmonds, while great, cannot carry them alone.

Bucknell the 'next one up' to challenge FU. Set a solid foundation last year, and they have a couple years of momentum that has taken them to a new level unseen in two decades.

Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate are all wrapped up with their respective 'holes' to fill. Might as well read goat entrails to get a reading on how this crew is going to do.

Georgetown impressed me with their 'moxie' last year. Their coaching staff did a great job with so much less, but they are likely to remain in the whine cellar.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For Schiano to take a PL job would be strange. If no HC opens up at FBS level, could like become a coordinator somewhere. Only if he had some real local interest to settle down would I see him taking a PL job.

His son, I believe, is planning to commit to Bucknell, and he's from Bucknell. It would be difficult to see him as an assistant to his former right-hand man at Bucknell, but what's better for Schiano, sitting out another year or doing something like that?

[Go...gate]

IMO, the coaching situations are interesting.

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

Coen should also see some added pressure with another below average season and loss to LC. He has the resources to get things turned around. Likewise with Hunt. I think another ugly year and some of the 'Gate faithful will start grumbling given what Biddle built....

Moorhead and Susan stock could grow even higher....

If there's no turnover in 2014/2015, I promise you there will be after next year.

They will give Hunt time. No way is he going anywhere for a while....

[Gate83]

Gate will be fine. 5-2 with Melville healthy, 0-5 without him. We will be a young-ish team with some tough early games but if reasonably healthy there's no reason why we can't run the PL. Agree with Go there's no pressure on Hunt whatsoever, particularly with an interim president in place for the next year...

[Gater]

Agree with 83. Colgate is also bringing in a three star and a two star QB this year so depth should be better.

Last year’s team was the youngest in memory. They lose very little on offense—22 yards of rushing, 0 passing, 180 receiving—with most of the line back. And seeing three freshmen d-linemen harassing the Bucknell QB in the final game (one of them had three sacks) bodes well for the future on D.

I don’t know how Colgate will stack up against other teams in the Patriot League but this should be the best Colgate team in awhile. It’s hard not to be a homer, but Colgate’s first three scholarship classes are a real uptick in talent so there's real optimism in Hamilton.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think the 3 comments regarding the 'Gate reflect what I said. There is an expectation at Colgate and Lehigh to get things turned around. If things do not turn around, or God forbid get worse, the tone will be much different 10 months from now.

This is a big year for both Lehigh and Colgate. One or both have owned this conference for the better part of 20 years yet have stumbled a bit into this new "era" of scholarships.

Gater you're really putting a lot of pressure on Hunt by saying this should be the test team in awhile. You guys did win the league in 2012....

For Lehigh it's a winning record and beating Lafayette....

[RichH2]

owl
Besides avoiding the obscene raft of injuries on O and Botts actually putting a D on the field.that can occasionally stop big plays.we will be OK. Shaf tore up his shoulder early on ,Rugg,Short and Yosha. Crawford basically missed the season. For a good part of the season we had no FBs. And when Crawford came back he had to play RB because we had no healthy RBs.
D was hopeless. Big play after big play all season. A ton of athletic talent that played D like a chinese fire drill ,bodies flying all over the field but few of them tackling or stopping recurrent big plays. Hopeful that if Botts can put at least a mediocre D on the field we can do pretty well. Sanguine about D being any better than mediocre.

[CFBfan]

Greg Schiano is sitting out there without a coaching job. If something were to open up in the Patriot League, would he take it?

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe he's waiting for that $4 million package from Columbia...

http://culions.blogspot.com/2015/01/breaking-price-of-success.html

[Franks Tanks]

IMO, the coaching situations are interesting.

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

Coen should also see some added pressure with another below average season and loss to LC. He has the resources to get things turned around. Likewise with Hunt. I think another ugly year and some of the 'Gate faithful will start grumbling given what Biddle built....

Moorhead and Susan stock could grow even higher....

If there's no turnover in 2014/2015, I promise you there will be after next year.

Frank's contract runs through 2016. He seems to be setting up 2016 for his swan song, but you never know.

[Franks Tanks]

Lehigh's program is well funded. Not factored into the budget number are donations and gifts. This where Lehigh and Fordham really excel...

Do you think that Lehigh is spending significantly more than Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross? Lafayette has a few football sugar daddies (Bourger, Fisher and Kirchoff) and I imagine Colgate and Holy Cross does as well. I always though Fordham spent more due to NYC salaries. Probably fair to say that Moorhead is the highest paid coach in the league, but their football facilities are still below average.

[Fordham]

it will certainly be an interesting year imo. I think Bucknell should get the nod. We have the chance to be better than most think imo but it could take time to gel and is very much dependent on whether or not some 5th year guys come back.

Nebrich is not expected back. We should have the transfer from Marshall taking over. Great arm, good legs ... just needs experience. Obviously there's Chase at TB and our OL should be as good or better than last year. WR & TE takes a huge beating although we get Jorge Solano back from injury which should help quite a bit.

It's D where we should see good improvement if Hodge comes back for one more year and if Yancey decided to stay. If those two come back, our D will be much better than last year on the line and LB's although the secondary will take a big hit regardless.

No doubt we'll take a step back but with Moorhead staying I wouldn't count us out. It should be a fun year imo.

[carney2]

Don't pencil in 0-3 just yet, Delaware will be a very young football team and you get them in game 2

Yes, Delaware appears beatable. The wild card is the fact that they are nowhere close to resembling a Patriot League school. Dave Brock's job depends on winning games.

Also, Princeton looks beatable. At least 4 of their 5 2014 wins were over true bottom feeders (Davidson, Columbia, Cornell and Penn). Still, anyone who follows football at either of these schools knows that Lafayette has the chance of the proverbial snowball in Hades. These teams have been playing since 1882 and the Pards have won exactly 4 times. Dress the New England Patritos up in Lafayette uniforms and put them on the field against some middle school JV team in orange and black. Princeton wins! It's a done deal and we all know it.

[carney2]

Tavani and Gilmore absolutely have to produce a winning season imo to justify another year. I know Gilmore got a contract extension but if HC goes 4-7 he has to go. In terms of Tavani, you can't be heading into 2016 without a winning season this decade.

I'll have a double of whatever it is you're drinking. You are talking about the two schools in the Patriot League who put the LEAST pressure on their coaches. Possible exception is HC men's hoops. I'm not really tuned in to Gilmore's situation, But Tavani is locked in until he is presented with a gold watch. And he decides when that will be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll have a double of whatever it is you're drinking. You are talking about the two schools in the Patriot League who put the LEAST pressure on their coaches. Possible exception is HC men's hoops. I'm not really tuned in to Gilmore's situation, But Tavani is locked in until he is presented with a gold watch. And he decides when that will be.

Speaking of which, I am openly wondering if the end of the Milan Brown era is nigh.

[Go Green]

Maybe he's waiting for that $4 million package from Columbia...

http://culions.blogspot.com/2015/01/breaking-price-of-success.html

If that were true, it would have happened by now.

Jake is reporting what his sources are telling him. Maybe the Schiano thing fell through (Yale's putative new coach changed his mind at the last minute a few years back as well). The latest is that Columbia will announce their new AD today. Hopefully that will happen.

If not, then it appears that neither Jake nor his sources have any idea what's going on....

[carney2]

Lock: Holy Cross will invent still new ways in losing games next year.

I thought the "new" bag was emptied at Albany.

[heath]

A one bid league? Was hoping by year 3 of schollies we'd see multiple teams in the expanded playoffs. more than 3(probably 2) loses and you're not going. Who has a shot?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A one bid league? Was hoping by year 3 of schollies we'd see multiple teams in the expanded playoffs. more than 3(probably 2) loses and you're not going. Who has a shot?

It's going to depend on the OOC success of the league. If Lehigh beats JMU (not saying that will happen), Lehigh would be in line possibly for one. If Fordham beats Army and/or Villanova, that will help. Lafayette beating Delaware may help. Etc.

Last year we were a 1 bid league since, as a league, we didn't have any impressive OOC wins. If we bag 2-3 of these types of games, there's a chance.

[Pards Rule]

Yes, Delaware appears beatable. The wild card is the fact that they are nowhere close to resembling a Patriot League school. Dave Brock's job depends on winning games.

Also, Princeton looks beatable. At least 4 of their 5 2014 wins were over true bottom feeders (Davidson, Columbia, Cornell and Penn). Still, anyone who follows football at either of these schools knows that Lafayette has the chance of the proverbial snowball in Hades. These teams have been playing since 1882 and the Pards have won exactly 4 times. Dress the New England Patritos up in Lafayette uniforms and put them on the field against some middle school JV team in orange and black. Princeton wins! It's a done deal and we all know it.


C2, thats one game I need to see as i have never witnessed in person - a win over Princeton. God, busy time in 2015. I have Delaware in Newark and W & M in Easton and Princeton. I will be exhausted before September ends!

[carney2]

C2, thats one game I need to see as i have never witnessed in person - a win over Princeton. God, busy time in 2015. I have Delaware in Newark and W & M in Easton and Princeton. I will be exhausted before September ends!

I don't want to get your hopes up because there probably isn't much hope, but Tavani has two of those four victories over Tigger (2000 and 2003).

[caribbeanhen]

Yes, Delaware appears beatable. The wild card is the fact that they are nowhere close to resembling a Patriot League school. Dave Brock's job depends on winning games.



one would certainly like to think so, but word is Brock has a free pass at Delaware, if Brocks recruiting class is a good as Hens fans believe the Hens just might be heard from again in our lifetimes.

[bison137]

My stab, in alphabetical order:

BUCKNELL - Came very close to knocking off Fordham last year, and pretty much everything of note returns. Will be no less than preseason No. 2.




I wish that were true for Bucknell but it isn't. They likely return as much as anyone else, but they graduated four first-team All-PL players, including the league's DPOY (Evan Byers). Also lost two-time All-PL OL Lonnie Rawles, All-PL LB Lee Marvel, and two-time All-PL DT Demetrius Baldwin-Youngblood. Also graduated some other good starters plus they unfortunately have also lost DT Robert Naylor, whose spinal cord injury will prevent him from playing again.

In total they will return 14 starters, including five who made All-PL. One key is the health of QB RJ Nitti, who missed the latter part of the year with another knee injury.

[Pard4Life]

Must admit, the Pards chances are good this year despite the Frankosaurus. We will start 0-3 and lose to Harvard and a PL game we should not... We are 6-5 already!

[UNHWildcat18]

Patriot league will still be one bid for this season and next. Maybe in the fifth year of scholarships they could be a two bid but it all depends on performance of OOC. I just really don't see it happening sooner.

[RichH2]

Cant disagree UNH. Except for Fordham,schollie teams all have just one upperclass group of schollie recruits. If,frosh and soph progress faster well its possible PL could get 2 this yr or next. PL has had 2 bids pre schollie,so while not likely also not impossible.
IMO,this will be a second transition yr,it would be fluky to get 2.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The league has to step up their game big time. This is a watered down playoff field. The non-scholarship PL received two bids in a 16 team field. It simply should not take 2-3 more years to be 2 bid worthy. That would be a major failure. I don't think every school in the league is fully on board with these scholarships. HC and LC scare me because, imo, their respective administrations are not interested in raising the bar. This would have been the perfect time to get rid of bumbling, long tenured coaches and bring in some new, fresh blood. Colgate turned their program over at the perfect time.

Then there's Georgetown...

[Bill]

The league has to step up their game big time. This is a watered down playoff field. The non-scholarship PL received two bids in a 16 team field. It simply should not take 2-3 more years to be 2 bid worthy. That would be a major failure. I don't think every school in the league is fully on board with these scholarships. HC and LC scare me because, imo, their respective administrations are not interested in raising the bar. This would have been the perfect time to get rid of bumbling, long tenured coaches and bring in some new, fresh blood. Colgate turned their program over at the perfect time.

Then there's Georgetown...

Great points, and good observation.

[Pard4Life]

Princeton's new AD personally thinks the Ivy should participate in the playoffs... from the latest alumni magazine:

Football is the only sport in which Ivy teams cannot play in the NCAA playoffs. Would you like to see the league lift the postseason ban?
Ultimately, yes, I’d like to see the kids be able to have a postseason competition. They work so hard during the season that it would be great to have that next opportunity. There are certainly challenges with it — we want to balance the time commitment and the strain on the body. But to me, instinctually, it would be nice to have that next opportunity.

[DFW HOYA]

. This would have been the perfect time to get rid of bumbling, long tenured coaches and bring in some new, fresh blood. Colgate turned their program over at the perfect time. Then there's Georgetown...

Which traded a long tenured and not altogether successful Kevin Kelly for the energetic Rob Sgarlata. Your point is?

[heath]

The league has to step up their game big time. This is a watered down playoff field. The non-scholarship PL received two bids in a 16 team field. It simply should not take 2-3 more years to be 2 bid worthy. That would be a major failure. I don't think every school in the league is fully on board with these scholarships. HC and LC scare me because, imo, their respective administrations are not interested in raising the bar. This would have been the perfect time to get rid of bumbling, long tenured coaches and bring in some new, fresh blood. Colgate turned their program over at the perfect time.

Then there's Georgetown...
Colgate? really?I guess you turn a program over when it is down, and to a coach that does the same. Colgate didn't get fresh blood they got a weak transfusion.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Which traded a long tenured and not altogether successful Kevin Kelly for the energetic Rob Sgarlata. Your point is?

...meaning your problems run much deeper than coaching.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Colgate? really?I guess you turn a program over when it is down, and to a coach that does the same. Colgate didn't get fresh blood they got a weak transfusion.

I think it's to early say that given 'Gates troubles at QB. If nothing else, their defense improved dramatically last year over the previous 3-4 seasons.

[DFW HOYA]

...meaning your problems run much deeper than coaching.
Any specifics, or just a general observation?

[heath]

I think it's to early say that given 'Gates troubles at QB. If nothing else, their defense improved dramatically last year over the previous 3-4 seasons.
The defense didn't improve at all? the numbers are better but the offense has lost 160 yards/game plus the TOP battle in the past 2 years. The D allowed less yards in 2014 than in 2012. but it always boils down to the number of plays run on the offense..The more plays you run, the more you win..........xbowx

[Lehigh'98]

Gate and Lehigh are both way down. The only reason people are assuming a turnaround is because of the past 20 years history for both schools. There is no tangible evidence to point to for future wins. Lehigh's lost some critical coaches and the defensive talent is nil.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A common theme I am seeing is "health of QBs" which applies to everybody. I think only Lehigh and HC started the same QB every game last year, and Shaf did battle through an injury that required offseason surgery to fix, so it's not like he was 100% all season.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Any specifics, or just a general observation?

I think 100 out of 100 people would say not offering scholarships and subpar facilities. :(
.

[Fordhamanhattan]

Fordham wrapped up its recruiting except for 4 of 22 spots before last season began. Emphasis is SPEED and in the defensive backfield SPEED and size. Nebrich is moving on. Marshall QB transfer is the heir apparent. With his enthusiasm, running and passing skills and movie star looks, the West Palm Beach boy may be a BIG STAR. We shall see.

[Franks Tanks]

The league has to step up their game big time. This is a watered down playoff field. The non-scholarship PL received two bids in a 16 team field. It simply should not take 2-3 more years to be 2 bid worthy. That would be a major failure. I don't think every school in the league is fully on board with these scholarships. HC and LC scare me because, imo, their respective administrations are not interested in raising the bar. This would have been the perfect time to get rid of bumbling, long tenured coaches and bring in some new, fresh blood. Colgate turned their program over at the perfect time.

Then there's Georgetown...

That comment just doesn't make sense...sorry. LC is not skimping on funding. Yes, every now and then we get some inexplicable decision out of Markle, and our AD is a wax statue so we have our problems, but we are embracing the scholarship era. We have games scheduled with Army, and apparently Navy (just not announced), and well as Delaware and W&M next year. Holy Cross is also stepping up with some big games. Yes, maybe Gilmore and Frank would be under pressure at most places, but that has more to do with culture than not embracing scholarship football.

What exactly is Lehigh doing to "raise the bar" anyway? I still convinced that Coen is lost without Chechinni, and he has done nothing to prove otherwise. Colgate hired a career assistant when Biddle retired. Doesn't sound like they even opened to job up. Is that raising the bar? Biddle also retired on his own, and sure didn't get pushed out. Gate made the safest (and probably cheapest) choice possible for his replacement.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Speaking from experience, throwing shovelfuls of dirt on Colgate is never a good idea, especially in February. Of all of the teams behind Fordham and Bucknell, I could see them with the highest probability of putting everything together in mid-October and winning the League.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

My comment towards Lafayette was in regards to Tavani's "safe" job status regardless of performance. Given his performance that's basically admitting that losing is ok so long as we do it gracefully. It's really hard to up the ante with that mindset.

I'm not hating on Lafayette. But if the league wants to move forward with scholarships the schools need to raise their expectations if they want the results to improve.

IMO, Coen is a CEO type coach that relies greatly on his assistants. There's plenty of good offensive coordinators not named Dave Cechinni, that can lead LU to success. When you have success at this level you're going to have to replace assistants. Hopefully Folmar grows more into his position this year. Ultimately though, if the ship does start taking on more water after 2015 the pressure will only increase on Coen. I promise you, or highly-highly doubt, he wouldn't be welcomed back after 5 straight losing seasons. Either way, Lehigh's problem will take care of itself because prolonged losing will not be allowed.

[DFW HOYA]

But if the league wants to move forward with scholarships the schools need to raise their expectations if they want the results to improve. .

I'm not sure the expectations game is assured at these schools. Not every school is on the same page, even among the six, on strength of schedule.

Then again, when do we start hearing complaints that Georgetown is bringing down the PL strength of schedule?

[carney2]

My comment towards Lafayette was in regards to Tavani's "safe" job status regardless of performance. Given his performance that's basically admitting that losing is ok so long as we do it gracefully. It's really hard to up the ante with that mindset.

Just a reminder that it was maybe 20 years and two administrations ago that former coach Bill Russo was supposedly told that it was OK to win as long as he didn't win too much. The faces have changed on College Hill, but the attitudes seem to be cast in stone. Tavani is a good and loyal soldier who graduates his players. Most of the rest is pretty much irrelevant to his employers.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I'm not sure the expectations game is assured at these schools. Not every school is on the same page, even among the six, on strength of schedule.

Then again, when do we start hearing complaints that Georgetown is bringing down the PL strength of schedule?

"We love ya. You're family." Just don't schedule College of Faith.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure the expectations game is assured at these schools. Not every school is on the same page, even among the six, on strength of schedule.

Then again, when do we start hearing complaints that Georgetown is bringing down the PL strength of schedule?

More accurately, we hear complaints that Georgetown is a weak sister then they go do something crazy like beat Holy Cross repeatedly.

[ngineer]

That comment just doesn't make sense...sorry. LC is not skimping on funding. Yes, every now and then we get some inexplicable decision out of Markle, and our AD is a wax statue so we have our problems, but we are embracing the scholarship era. We have games scheduled with Army, and apparently Navy (just not announced), and well as Delaware and W&M next year. Holy Cross is also stepping up with some big games. Yes, maybe Gilmore and Frank would be under pressure at most places, but that has more to do with culture than not embracing scholarship football.
I still convinced that Coen is lost w
What exactly is Lehigh doing to "raise the bar" anyway? ithout Chechinni, and he has done nothing to prove otherwise. Colgate hired a career assistant when Biddle retired. Doesn't sound like they even opened to job up. Is that raising the bar? Biddle also retired on his own, and sure didn't get pushed out. Gate made the safest (and probably cheapest) choice possible for his replacement.

The problem has been more with the loss of Coach K on defense a couple years ago.

[RichH2]

The problem has been more with the loss of Coach K on defense a couple years ago.
Absolutely,the key issue at LU. Folmar feeling his way a bit ladt yr. The plague of injuries certainly didn't help.
D has gotten progressively worsr every year since Coach K left for Stanford. Hopefully we bottomed out last year.

[Go Green]

Then again, when do we start hearing complaints that Georgetown is bringing down the PL strength of schedule?

Not 2015. You're hosting Dartmouth in September.

[Andy]

My comment towards Lafayette was in regards to Tavani's "safe" job status regardless of performance. Given his performance that's basically admitting that losing is ok so long as we do it gracefully. It's really hard to up the ante with that mindset.

I'm not hating on Lafayette. But if the league wants to move forward with scholarships the schools need to raise their expectations if they want the results to improve..

It's this kind of arrogance that has earned Lehigh fans their reputation. You just got your butt kicked on the biggest stage possible and the year before we hung 50 on you, still you're pointing fingers at us. Tavani had a full roster of his recruits starting in 2003 and since then we're 6-6 with you guys. Over that time period we've won the automatic bid 3 times to your 2. We have a new $30 million facility and our football budget is higher than yours. Questioning our commitment? Tavani's won four titles in 11 years including 2013 with a 5-1 league record, he has a couple of years left before retirement and LU fans think he should be fired. I'm telling you - shameless.

[Southsider]

It's this kind of arrogance that has earned Lehigh fans their reputation. You just got your butt kicked on the biggest stage possible and the year before we hung 50 on you, still you're pointing fingers at us. Tavani had a full roster of his recruits starting in 2003 and since then we're 6-6 with you guys. Over that time period we've won the automatic bid 3 times to your 2. We have a new $30 million facility and our football budget is higher than yours. Questioning our commitment? Tavani's won four titles in 11 years including 2013 with a 5-1 league record, he has a couple of years left before retirement and LU fans think he should be fired. I'm telling you - shameless.

Well stated Andy. As an LU fan I completely agree.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It's this kind of arrogance that has earned Lehigh fans their reputation. You just got your butt kicked on the biggest stage possible and the year before we hung 50 on you, still you're pointing fingers at us. Tavani had a full roster of his recruits starting in 2003 and since then we're 6-6 with you guys. Over that time period we've won the automatic bid 3 times to your 2. We have a new $30 million facility and our football budget is higher than yours. Questioning our commitment? Tavani's won four titles in 11 years including 2013 with a 5-1 league record, he has a couple of years left before retirement and LU fans think he should be fired. I'm telling you - shameless.

While I understand the importance of the rivalry, it's a single game. I'm not a Lehigh alum, just a fan. I care about the grander scheme of things rather than just one particular outcome. While Lafayette was impressive for the last 120 minutes against Lehigh they have been subpar otherwise.

You can point to 6-6 against LU in the last 13 or auto-bid compared to Lehigh. But what have you accomplished outside of that? Lafayette still has not won a playoff game. Fordham has 3 and Colgate has a Finals appearance. Tavani's high water mark for wins is 8. He can't beat the Ivies to save his life. Your 2013 championship team was not a good team. 5-7 is below average. The 2006 squad finished 6-6. How many times has Lafayette finished the season ranked?

Lafayette has accomplished next to nothing nationally relative to Lehigh over the last 15 years. Lafayette's biggest claim's to fame have literally been beating Lehigh 50% of the time. If the league wants to take the next step then aim higher. IMO, I don't think Tavani will advance LC football with scholarships based on the last 15 years.

I'm not saying he SHOULD be fired. BUT, I am saying he WOULD be fired at a lot of D1 schools for having 5 straight losing records and a sub .500 career record.

I just want the league to reach the next level nationally.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's this kind of arrogance that has earned Lehigh fans their reputation. You just got your butt kicked on the biggest stage possible and the year before we hung 50 on you, still you're pointing fingers at us. Tavani had a full roster of his recruits starting in 2003 and since then we're 6-6 with you guys. Over that time period we've won the automatic bid 3 times to your 2. We have a new $30 million facility and our football budget is higher than yours. Questioning our commitment? Tavani's won four titles in 11 years including 2013 with a 5-1 league record, he has a couple of years left before retirement and LU fans think he should be fired. I'm telling you - shameless.

A reminder that Tavani's record over the last 5 years was 21-35, five straight losing seasons. Maybe to some at Lafayette the ROI on that is fine, as long as there are wins over Lehigh.

[DFW HOYA]

Lafayette has accomplished next to nothing nationally relative to Lehigh over the last 15 years. Lafayette's biggest claim's to fame have literally been beating Lehigh 50% of the time. If the league wants to take the next step then aim higher. IMO, I don't think Tavani will advance LC football with scholarships based on the last 15 years...I just want the league to take the next level nationally.

What is that next step, merely playoff appearances, or a concerted presence with multiple top 25 teams and consistent championship-level aspirations? That takes commitment in areas beyond budget, primarily in three areas where the PL does not seem comfortable accelerating:

1. Accept more I-A transfers
2. Redshirting and in some cases, greenshirting
3. A commitment to better practice and training facilities (incl. strength and conditioning staffs)

[RichH2]

It's this kind of arrogance that has earned Lehigh fans their reputation. You just got your butt kicked on the biggest stage possible and the year before we hung 50 on you, still you're pointing fingers at us. Tavani had a full roster of his recruits starting in 2003 and since then we're 6-6 with you guys. Over that time period we've won the automatic bid 3 times to your 2. We have a new $30 million facility and our football budget is higher than yours. Questioning our commitment? Tavani's won four titles in 11 years including 2013 with a 5-1 league record, he has a couple of years left before retirement and LU fans think he should be fired. I'm telling you - shameless.
Agree with your analysis of the Pard status. I rather doubt tho that owl's comments stem from LU "arrogance". We have little to boast about over the last couple of years,especially vs you guys (:. His overall point is well taken. Tavani is a stand up guy but Lafayette football has been mediocre for a long stretch. If the PL is to rise all of the schollie teams must do so. LU has been ver good and lately very bad. It is a given that Sterrett will not allow that to continue. Any HC at LU that had Tavani's recofd over the last 5 yrs would be gone even if he beat Pards each year. Rather ingenuous to boast about winni.g PL with a 5-6 team. Says more about the lack of quality in PL than how good Tavani did.
I root for all our squads to have excellent recruiting years,as that is the primary way this league will improve.

[carney2]

What is that next step, merely playoff appearances, or a concerted presence with multiple top 25 teams and consistent championship-level aspirations? That takes commitment in areas beyond budget, primarily in three areas where the PL does not seem comfortable accelerating:

1. Accept more I-A transfers
2. Redshirting and in some cases, greenshirting
3. A commitment to better practice and training facilities (incl. strength and conditioning staffs)

Add pay a living wage to assistant coaches and you've hit a home run.

[Andy]

Well stated Andy. As an LU fan I completely agree.

I appreciate it, southsider. Nothing personal of course. But the chutzpah of a guy criticizing a program that demolished them for the past 2 years while playing them even over a 12 year period is mind-boggling to me. BTW were LC fans seen here gloating about the wins? I dont think so. Have a smidgeon of class and humility.

[Andy]

While I understand the importance of the rivalry, it's a single game. I'm not a Lehigh alum, just a fan. I care about the grander scheme of things rather than just one particular outcome. While Lafayette was impressive for the last 120 minutes against Lehigh they have been subpar otherwise.

You can point to 6-6 against LU in the last 13 or auto-bid compared to Lehigh. But what have you accomplished outside of that? Lafayette still has not won a playoff game. Fordham has 3 and Colgate has a Finals appearance. Tavani's high water mark for wins is 8. He can't beat the Ivies to save his life. Your 2013 championship team was not a good team. 5-7 is below average. The 2006 squad finished 6-6. How many times has Lafayette finished the season ranked?

Lafayette has accomplished next to nothing nationally relative to Lehigh over the last 15 years. Lafayette's biggest claim's to fame have literally been beating Lehigh 50% of the time. If the league wants to take the next step then aim higher. IMO, I don't think Tavani will advance LC football with scholarships based on the last 15 years.

I'm not saying he SHOULD be fired. BUT, I am saying he WOULD be fired at a lot of D1 schools for having 5 straight losing records and a sub .500 career record.


NO ONE would fire a coach that was 8-4 in his league the past 2 years including a championship. Tavani went into league play for several years following the stock market crash with equivalencies in the low 40s against league members in the 50s. You do that and then fire him?

Tavani's goal every season is the same as Coen's - a league championship. He's got 4 in the 12 years he's competed with a full roster of his players. There's a quote on the LC website that claims LC was the only PL member to have a winning regular season record for the years '04-'09. I guess it's true. I dont have to defend our post season play. Look up the quality of our opponents. Congrats on your win over Drake.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

NO ONE would fire a coach that was 8-4 in his league the past 2 years including a championship. Tavani went into league play for several years following the stock market crash with equivalencies in the low 40s against league members in the 50s. You do that and then fire him?

Tavani's goal every season is the same as Coen's - a league championship. He's got 4 in the 12 years he's competed with a full roster of his players. There's a quote on the LC website that claims LC was the only PL member to have a winning regular season record for the years '04-'09. I guess it's true. I dont have to defend our post season play. Look up the quality of our opponents. Congrats on your win over Drake.

I just can't call 5 straight losing seasons a success. Sorry...

[Bill]

NO ONE would fire a coach that was 8-4 in his league the past 2 years including a championship.

Other than Bo Pelini...;)

[Go...gate]

That comment just doesn't make sense...sorry. LC is not skimping on funding. Yes, every now and then we get some inexplicable decision out of Markle, and our AD is a wax statue so we have our problems, but we are embracing the scholarship era. We have games scheduled with Army, and apparently Navy (just not announced), and well as Delaware and W&M next year. Holy Cross is also stepping up with some big games. Yes, maybe Gilmore and Frank would be under pressure at most places, but that has more to do with culture than not embracing scholarship football.

What exactly is Lehigh doing to "raise the bar" anyway? I still convinced that Coen is lost without Chechinni, and he has done nothing to prove otherwise. Colgate hired a career assistant when Biddle retired. Doesn't sound like they even opened to job up. Is that raising the bar? Biddle also retired on his own, and sure didn't get pushed out. Gate made the safest (and probably cheapest) choice possible for his replacement.

Gentlemen, Biddle was a "career assistant", and I believe it can be conceded that he did reasonably well. Hunt took the same path; Biddle was his mentor.

[Pard4Life]

Yeah, giving the job to Hunt wasn't a blunder or the 'cheap' option... he knows the offense and the school and appears to be qualified, so why not? Colgate had problems last year... not sure if they will be in the hunt just yet, but they certainly have the bench strength on paper.

[carney2]

I just can't call 5 straight losing seasons a success. Sorry...

Siding with Andy (well, sort of, and a rarity no matter how you look at it), the first two seasons are on former President Dan Weiss and his cronies. Vince Lombardi couldn't have won in those years with the crumbs that were left after equivalency money was redirected to God knows where. The last three are on Frank and his cronies. He simply hasn't gotten it done. No show games and dunderhead game day appearances by The Frankosaurus are way too frequent.

You're right. He would not be retained at schools that give a crap about winning. But this is the Patriot League and more to the point, this is Lafayette. Coaches simply are not fired in Easton. You've gone down this on-the-hot-seat road before. Give it up. It is not going to happen. He will be occupying the corner head coach's office in Bourger until HE decides to terminate the lease.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Siding with Andy (well, sort of, and a rarity no matter how you look at it), the first two seasons are on former President Dan Weiss and his cronies. Vince Lombardi couldn't have won in those years with the crumbs that were left after equivalency money was redirected to God knows where. The last three are on Frank and his cronies. He simply hasn't gotten it done. No show games and dunderhead game day appearances by The Frankosaurus are way too frequent.

You're right. He would not be retained at schools that give a crap about winning. But this is the Patriot League and more to the point, this is Lafayette. Coaches simply are not fired in Easton. You've gone down this on-the-hot-seat road before. Give it up. It is not going to happen. He will be occupying the corner head coach's office in Bourger until HE decides to terminate the lease.

The key, of course, is a 2-1 record over Lehigh during that three year stretch you're talking about. Never mind they were humiliated vs. UNH in the playoffs; never mind non-competitiveness vs. the Ivy League over the last two years; never mind two losses to Sacred Heart - the only record that appears to matter is 2-1.

[Go Green]

The key, of course, is a 2-1 record over Lehigh during that three year stretch you're talking about. Never mind they were humiliated vs. UNH in the playoffs; never mind non-competitiveness vs. the Ivy League over the last two years; never mind two losses to Sacred Heart - the only record that appears to matter is 2-1.

Yale fired Jack Siedlecki because he couldn't beat Harvard--even though he pretty much beat everyone else.

[Pard4Life]

Yale needs to recruit players with offers from the major Pac-12 and SEC schools... that's why they can't edge Harvard. Yale still can win of course, the odds area just not even in a given year.

[RichH2]

Just a small point here. This is a PL thread . The real issue is are we improving as measured against the Ivies,CAA et al. ? It should not be a rehash of LU-LC comparisons. owl 's point was addressed to PL improvement and what each team is doing to get better. The knee jerk reaction of Lehigh arrogance is out of place in this topic. LU has little to be arrogant about from the last two years. The fact that LC keeps on a coach with a losing record over the last 5years is a valid point. As is Cross retaining their coach. No problem with disagreeing with owl's point on the merits for any coach but a bit to disengeuous to dismiss his points as mere Lehigh arrogance. Misses the idea altogether,smh

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

It's imperative to have a home game or two in the playoffs if you want to make a run. Winning on the road during the FCS playoffs has proven to be EXTREMELY difficult. Had the travel not been so difficult perhaps one of those Lehigh or Lafayette teams advances. It should get to the point where winning the league is not the only vehicle to national success and exposure. Dominate the Ivies (Lehigh has done this at times), hold your own against the CAA and things will take care of themselves.

When Lafayette plays a CAA game or better IL teams there's an acceptance of losing. That along with the consecutive losing seasons is what gets me. You have to believe you can do better than that. That's what has separated Lehigh from Lafayette over the last 15 years. They've talked about goals beyond the league. They went out and beat UNH last year because of some talent and a helluva lot of will. Coen and his players have openly set their sights on the CAA over the last 4-5 years.

Fordham has developed the same kind of mentality under Moorhead. I've noticed that numerous 'Pard fans have taken shots at the Rams for their brash play, personal fouls etc. over the last two years. Much like their comments towards Lehigh as the "taunters". I think you have to have that edge given some of the hurdles PL teams have faced. Fordham openly tossed around these two words "national title" before this year. That aspiration has been mentioned around the Lehigh locker room at times over the last 17 years or so. Even if it's far fetched that's the type of culture you need.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Just a small point here. This is a PL thread . The real issue is are we improving as measured against the Ivies,CAA et al. ? It should not be a rehash of LU-LC comparisons. owl 's point was addressed to PL improvement and what each team is doing to get better. The knee jerk reaction of Lehigh arrogance is out of place in this topic. LU has little to be arrogant about from the last two years. The fact that LC keeps on a coach with a losing record over the last 5years is a valid point. As is Cross retaining their coach. No problem with disagreeing with owl's point on the merits for any coach but a bit to disengeuous to dismiss his points as mere Lehigh arrogance. Misses the idea altogether,smh

Well said Rich!

I think 2004 best sums it up for me. Lehigh, overall, had a really good team with some great players. Lafayette was also very good. Rath had a couple of fumbles in which the 'Pards gained momentum from. Ultimately, they take it to LU in the second half. Lehigh finishes 9-2, excellent record, and is awarded a home game against JMU. That JMU game and the fact that there's life after LC defines LU football. Most every LU fan is haunted by 7 downs from the 1, not the second half of Lafayette. The JMU game proved to be the defining moment that season not a loss to a Top 25 Lafayette team.

Now the next year is different, although it was defined by 3 excruciating losses; blown lead against Delaware then a missed XP in OT, monsoon game against HC and then the Big Hurt...The Big Hurt was the final blow...

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The key, of course, is a 2-1 record over Lehigh during that three year stretch you're talking about. Never mind they were humiliated vs. UNH in the playoffs; never mind non-competitiveness vs. the Ivy League over the last two years; never mind two losses to Sacred Heart - the only record that appears to matter is 2-1.

Far too many Lafayette fans are considering winning #150 as some sort great achievement. The event was awesome and the day historical. Unfortunately, the game and teams were not. It could be argued that with better teams, the game receives more national pub. As it was, with the loss Lehigh finished with their worst record since 1992. Lafayette, with the win, concluded their 5th straight losing season.

The 2013 win was far more impressive. The stakes were high and Lehigh entered with a pulse.

[Andy]

The key, of course, is a 2-1 record over Lehigh during that three year stretch you're talking about. Never mind they were humiliated vs. UNH in the playoffs; never mind non-competitiveness vs. the Ivy League over the last two years; never mind two losses to Sacred Heart - the only record that appears to matter is 2-1.

You guys crack me up. Where were you when we getting beaten by UNH? Home watching.

Your home loss in '04 to JMU is somehow more noble than our performance against eventual national champ App. State? Makes me laugh.

Let's see, whats worse Lafayette losing to UNH 45-7 or Lehigh losing to Bucknell 48-10. And you want to point fingers! Mindboggling. How'd that Monmouth game go for you? Who was better Sacred Heart or Monmouth?

How are we striving to improve the league - how about a 30 million dollar stadium and the 3rd highest budget in the league? You want a coach fired that just won a championship with a 5-1 league record and kicked your as* on national TV. So out of 7 teams in the league Owl is worried
about HC and LC holding the league back? Not Lehigh, cause they're Lehigh, they'll come back. What a load of crap. Lafayette just came back from a budget crisis to go 5-1 in the league and win a title. But that doesn't count cause we're not Lehgih. Arrogance!

6-6 in 12 years, 3 auto bids to 2, I wont even bring up the embarrassing revelation of your APR.

I just cannot get over a team getting their as* kicked by a program and, in their next breath, knocking that program. Unbelievable for anyone other than Lehigh fans.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You guys crack me up. Where were you when we getting beaten by UNH? Home watching.

Your home loss in '04 to JMU is somehow more noble than our performance against eventual national champ App. State? Makes me laugh.

Let's see, whats worse Lafayette losing to UNH 45-7 or Lehigh losing to Bucknell 48-10. And you want to point fingers! Mindboggling. How'd that Monmouth game go for you? Who was better Sacred Heart or Monmouth?

How are we striving to improve the league - how about a 30 million dollar stadium and the 3rd highest budget in the league? You want a coach fired that just won a championship with a 5-1 league record and kicked your as* on national TV. So out of 7 teams in the league Owl is worried
about HC and LC holding the league back? Not Lehigh, cause they're Lehigh, they'll come back. What a load of crap. Lafayette just came back from a budget crisis to go 5-1 in the league and win a title. But that doesn't count cause we're not Lehgih. Arrogance!

6-6 in 12 years, 3 auto bids to 2, I wont even bring up the embarrassing revelation of your APR.

I just cannot get over a team getting their as* kicked by a program and, in their next breath, knocking that program. Unbelievable for anyone other than Lehigh fans.

Lehigh had not lost to Bucknell since 1997 prior to 2013. So they finally lost and got their butts kicked. The previous 16 years is more than enough make up for 2013 and 2014. Bucknell was also pretty solid so it's not like they were some dreg. When Lafayette posseses that type of dominance over a league opponent let me know. Lehigh still has never lost to GTown in PL play. As for this years loss to Monmouth? First loss to Monmouth ever and it came during a 3-8 season. 5-1 All time record against the Hawks. Lehigh is going to lose now and then. It's just when they do more people take notice xsmiley_wix

Who said anything about LU's performance against JMU being a more noble achievement relative to Lafayette's performance against App State? All I said is that most Lehigh fans think back to the game against JMU when it comes to 2004, not LC. There is nothing "noble" related at all in the context in which I said it. You're literally making things up in your mind because you despise Lehigh so much. As someone who has no ill feelings towards Lafayette I find it humorous.

BTW, since you did in fact bring up the "embarrassing APR revelations" you better elaborate. I'm sure everyone here on AGS would love to know about this information you've hinted about. You clearly wanted to make a spiteful comment but lacked the guts to go in to detail. Man up.....

[Southsider]

I appreciate it, southsider. Nothing personal of course. But the chutzpah of a guy criticizing a program that demolished them for the past 2 years while playing them even over a 12 year period is mind-boggling to me. BTW were LC fans seen here gloating about the wins? I dont think so. Have a smidgeon of class and humility.

No, but some sure do on the Leopard board. However, with 2 straight you get to crow a little. You know, we all seem to get so caught up in all this stuff. I did for a long time. Now, I have learned to just sit back and enjoy. I hope both are 10-0 heading into the 3rd Sat in November.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's see, whats worse Lafayette losing to UNH 45-7 or Lehigh losing to Bucknell 48-10. And you want to point fingers! Mindboggling. How'd that Monmouth game go for you? Who was better Sacred Heart or Monmouth?

This illustrates the point perfectly. Even the horribleness of the UNH loss becomes a sort-of yardstick against Lehigh, as if Lehigh's and Lafayette's losses need to be compared to be put in perspective. We weren't talking about Lehigh's losses, we were talking about Lafayette's record over the last three years.

Incidentally, you had no bigger fan than me when you went down to App. If that horrible call on the onside kick didn't happen, I think you would have taken them. They got damned lucky to beat you guys. I also was pulling for you to beat Delaware. You had them on the ropes, too.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

This illustrates the point perfectly. Even the horribleness of the UNH loss becomes a sort-of yardstick against Lehigh, as if Lehigh's and Lafayette's losses need to be compared to be put in perspective. We weren't talking about Lehigh's losses, we were talking about Lafayette's record over the last three years.

Incidentally, you had no bigger fan than me when you went down to App. If that horrible call on the onside kick didn't happen, I think you would have taken them. They got damned lucky to beat you guys. I also was pulling for you to beat Delaware. You had them on the ropes, too.

I don't get how he doesn't understand this is about the league and not Lehigh vs Lafayette. Is he oblivious to the fact that the PL took a lot of criticism for their league champ being the first ever to enter the playoffs with a losing record? Then they proceeded to complete the black-eye for the league with a bad loss? That is not Lehigh fans talking, that is FCS nation talking. No one gives a crap about budget cuts within the institution as a reason for the 5-6 record. To most people that just looks lack wavering institutional support which is another can of worms. The league is fighting too hard of a battle to earn national respect to accept making history because of futility.

BTW, I think what Lafayette fans are considering arrogance Lehigh fans consider pride. Lehigh, along with Colagate, have done a lot to get this league any amount of respect since 1997. That absolutely can not be denied.....

[Andy]

Again, in typical Lehigh fan fashion, Lafayette's loss to SHU is cited as a big negative, but Lehigh's loss to a lesser Monmouth team is explained away. No problem.

My final time: A Lehigh fan, or any fan, whose team has had middling success over the relative long term (12 years) and abject failure in the 2-year short term vs an opponent, should not be citing the opponent as holding the league down. For so many obvious reasons and in my best Chris Russo voice - "Can't do it, Mikey; cannot do it."

[Andy]

Can't help myself after reading his last. The "PL took a black eye cause it's champ had a losing record." What had Lehigh done about that? YOU LOST TO THAT TEAM 50-28! GET IT! Jeezuz, I'm done.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Again, in typical Lehigh fan fashion, Lafayette's loss to SHU is cited as a big negative, but Lehigh's loss to a lesser Monmouth team is explained away. No problem.

My final time: A Lehigh fan, or any fan, whose team has had middling success over the relative long term (12 years) and abject failure in the 2-year short term vs an opponent, should not be citing the opponent as holding the league down. For so many obvious reasons and in my best Chris Russo voice - "Can't do it, Mikey; cannot do it."

Huh? In typical Lehigh fashion?

Lafayette was looking to build off of the 2013 PL title. SHU came into 2014 with a lot of momentum after posting 10 wins and a league championship the previous season. That is a big game for both conferences and teams to start the year. To not understand that in context relative to 0-3 Lehigh playing a Monmouth team with little expectations and playing in a new league baffles me.

[DFW HOYA]

Just a small point here. This is a PL thread . The real issue is are we improving as measured against the Ivies,CAA et al. ? It should not be a rehash of LU-LC comparisons.

That's exactly what this thread has become. Schools like Fordham have made great progress nationally but it is seen through the lens that the PL is in retrograde if Lehigh and/or Lafayette are not at the top of the list.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Can't help myself after reading his last. The "PL took a black eye cause it's champ had a losing record." What had Lehigh done about that? YOU LOST TO THAT TEAM 50-28! GET IT! Jeezuz, I'm done.

Why do you keep on coming back to Lehigh? Nothing I said is wrong or incorrect. The PL sending a champ with a losing record was a black eye. It was an historical "accomplishment" and not the type you want imo. Colgate would have been that team had they'd beaten Lehigh. In that case it's Colgate taking the heat and not Lafayette. Your obsession with Lehigh is bizarre....

[RichH2]

Some seem to have tunnel vision that a discussion of how we are doing in improving the PL becomes a diatribe against a Lehigh fan for the arrogance to point out that in his opinion some ,Cross,Lafayette and Gate could do more. Whether you agree with him of not, the issue is not bashing Lafayette nor should it be. To whine that a fan of LU pointed out facts that posed the question of whether Pards were doing enuf is somewhat over defensive. Moreover,we are talking about the PL. Andy made some valid points defending the actions taken by Lafayette. The gratuitous sniping at a poster because he is a fan of your rival is counterproductive to the good points posted. Regardless of how some may feel the PL is not Lehigh Valley's private club,it is not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fordham beat a LOADED Villanova team two years ago and were a Top 10 team pretty much all season this year, despite a big loss to Villanova in the return match. They also gave Army a run and (of course) won the league and made a good run in the playoffs.

I had been touting them all season as one of the best teams in PL history. When healthy, I'd give them a chance against any PL champion over the last decade at least. Without Edmonds, they were simply very, very good, but with Edmonds, they became frightening.

Having said that, the thing I'm wondering about Fordham is whether their success was the alignment of the stars - Nebrich (and to a lesser extent Tebucky Jones, Jr.) coming with Moorhead from UConn to encounter the residual strong scholarship talent that Moorhead inherited on offense and defense, peppered with a transfer or two. I liked this team when they didn't play Lehigh. Having said that, Fordham was not built the way Patriot League teams are usually built.

With Nebrich presumed gone, Edmonds goes from sparkplug to keep the passing game honest to the guy on whom they're depending to move the offense on a regular basis. Fordham also seems like they are going to be relying a lot more on home-grown guys. Moorhead seems up to the challenge - witness Edmonds. If he can get another title this year with largely home-grown talent, they will be among the favorites to win the PL every single season.

[RichH2]

Well ond caveat for Fordham,their QB will be a transfer from Marshall. Losing 16 starters makes them vulnerable. Up to the rest of us to gear up to take advantage of that. They will still have 60 schollies on board. A distinct edge. Who among us can challenge. Somehow,PL has to avoid being a one national team conference. Bucknell loses a chunk of their D. Pards should get their QBs back but lost their running attack. LU needs a D. Cross has a QB,a RB and needs a D. Gate fairly solid all around but nothing stands out. Hoyas actually have. a D ,need an O.
Not up to me to figur out who should do what.

[citdog]

Well one caveat for Fordham,their QB will be a transfer from Marshall..

Anyone else find that fact as hilarious as i do? Perhaps marshall was a bit tough academically?

[Lehigh'98]

There seems to be a bit of a ceiling on Patriot League success in football. First, it was due to no scholarships, AI and no redshirt.....For the most part Colgate and Lehigh overcame the no official scholarships with aid packages and had good success for a 20 yr stretch......

With scholarships now, the rest of the league can catch up to Lehigh and Colgate(Fordham has already done so), but I don't think they alone are enough to get us to where we want to be as we still have the AI and redshirt issues to deal with. I really hope I'm wrong here. maybe I'm blinded by Lehigh's awful last 1.5 seasons, but it still seems like the CAA has a decided edge in talent. UNH took apart our 2 league champs the past 2 years.

[Bill]

Anyone else find that fact as hilarious as i do? Perhaps marshall was a bit tough academically?

touche Mr. Citdog...I'm laughing along too!

[van]

There seems to be a bit of a ceiling on Patriot League success in football. First, it was due to no scholarships, AI and no redshirt.....For the most part Colgate and Lehigh overcame the no official scholarships with aid packages and had good success for a 20 yr stretch......

With scholarships now, the rest of the league can catch up to Lehigh and Colgate(Fordham has already done so), but I don't think they alone are enough to get us to where we want to be as we still have the AI and redshirt issues to deal with. I really hope I'm wrong here. maybe I'm blinded by Lehigh's awful last 1.5 seasons, but it still seems like the CAA has a decided edge in talent. UNH took apart our 2 league champs the past 2 years.

appears to me that UNH had a decided edge in talent last two years, AI and redshirt just not that big a deal in my mind, there are enough quality students to fill PL rosters and meet AI, makes coaches jobs a little more demanding to recruit, reshirts might be useful at schools with a lot of walk-ons to beef up roster size, PL not likely to benefit much from that given cost, once scholarship programs mature (another couple of years from now) rosters should be predominately JR and SR (see Fordham), would be curious to know how many redshirts become 3 or 4 year starters on elite teams, anyone have such data readily available?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

appears to me that UNH had a decided edge in talent last two years, AI and redshirt just not that big a deal in my mind, there are enough quality students to fill PL rosters and meet AI, makes coaches jobs a little more demanding to recruit, reshirts might be useful at schools with a lot of walk-ons to beef up roster size, PL not likely to benefit much from that given cost, once scholarship programs mature (another couple of years from now) rosters should be predominately JR and SR (see Fordham), would be curious to know how many redshirts become 3 or 4 year starters on elite teams, anyone have such data readily available?

I don't think the AI is a very big deal - I don't get the impression that PL schools secretly want to recruit athletes that are going to struggle academically. Redshirting, however, could have some strong competitive benefits, giving athletes an extra year to acclimate to the football/school balance and to let their bodies develop more physically. I've often thought about how good Ryan Spadola and Chris Lum might have been with a redshirt year. Redshirting would also make the PL a much more attractive league for other schools to join, for example, Richmond or Villanova.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't get how he doesn't understand this is about the league and not Lehigh vs Lafayette. Is he oblivious to the fact that the PL took a lot of criticism for their league champ being the first ever to enter the playoffs with a losing record? Then they proceeded to complete the black-eye for the league with a bad loss? That is not Lehigh fans talking, that is FCS nation talking. No one gives a crap about budget cuts within the institution as a reason for the 5-6 record. To most people that just looks lack wavering institutional support which is another can of worms. The league is fighting too hard of a battle to earn national respect to accept making history because of futility.

BTW, I think what Lafayette fans are considering arrogance Lehigh fans consider pride. Lehigh, along with Colagate, have done a lot to get this league any amount of respect since 1997. That absolutely can not be denied.....

Then don't lose at home by 4 TD's to that team with a losing record. The 2013 Leopards weren't a great team, but they stepped up when it counted, and won the league title on the field (with Fordham included).


Beating UNH at home in the playoffs is a very tall order for any PL team, let alone one that was not as good as most PL championship teams.

[RichH2]

appears to me that UNH had a decided edge in talent last two years, AI and redshirt just not that big a deal in my mind, there are enough quality students to fill PL rosters and meet AI, makes coaches jobs a little more demanding to recruit, reshirts might be useful at schools with a lot of walk-ons to beef up roster size, PL not likely to benefit much from that given cost, once scholarship programs mature (another couple of years from now) rosters should be predominately JR and SR (see Fordham), would be curious to know how many redshirts become 3 or 4 year starters on elite teams, anyone have such data readily available?
I'm looking thru CAA teams. W&M stands out with redshirting. No numbers yet but appears that the vast majority letter. Need to do more for info on 3-4yr starters.

[RichH2]

I don't think the AI is a very big deal - I don't get the impression that PL schools secretly want to recruit athletes that are going to struggle academically. Redshirting, however, could have some strong competitive benefits, giving athletes an extra year to acclimate to the football/school balance and to let their bodies develop more physically. I've often thought about how good Ryan Spadola and Chris Lum might have been with a redshirt year. Redshirting would also make the PL a much more attractive league for other schools to join, for example, Richmond or Villanova.
The AI is a fixture. Not going away. For expansion and OOC competitiveness,agree redshirting is the single major factor. Doubt PL will ever allow unrestricted redshirting. Certainly possible to broaden the current permitted grounds for eligibility.

[DFW HOYA]

The AI is a fixture. Not going away.

Because if the Patriot League ever, ever wants to expand, it absolutely has to address this issue.

Otherwise, it'll become "Lehigh, Lafayette, and Their Four Invited Guests."

[RichH2]

Because if the Patriot League ever, ever wants to expand, it absolutely has to address this issue.

Otherwise, it'll become "Lehigh, Lafayette, and Their Four Invited Guests."
May be some changes but dont forget AI applies to Bball and lax. And then we let in Boston U and Loyola. Pre Fordham there was an AI but no floor. Recruits as a group needed only to fit within that school's student profile for that year. If ever all the schools profiles comparatively match,guessi.g AI floor will vanish.

[Model Citizen]

What do you think of Marist's fundraising campaign, led by Raymond Rich's offer to match up to $1 million in donations? I think Rich is so awesome that I have adopted his picture as my avatar.

Is Marist trying to build a war chest for joining Patriot League football...you know, if someone happened to drop out?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is Marist trying to build a war chest for joining Patriot League football...you know, if someone happened to drop out?

Now who on Earth would publicly speculate that Marist wants to be a part of the PL?

[Model Citizen]

Yeah, I see where you're going with that. So, to reiterate the Marist AD's comments of about seven years ago,

"We would love to be aligned with schools like the Patriot League and the Ivy League and schools of that academic and athletic reputation," he said, "but those opportunities at this point weren't necessarily available to us. And maybe that changes down the road."

They're not down the road. However, they might be thinking of buying a map.

[carney2]

Can't believe where this "discussion" has gone. But then, it's the Patriot League. We may not be be able to beat you at football, but we can B S you into a coma.

[ngineer]

The AI is what distinguishes the PL from other conferences, other than the IL. And, I believe it will always be that way as part of the philosophy of having athletic teams that mirror the student body. Yes, it prevents us from recruiting some blue chip athetes, but it is who we are. However, I do think red-shirting should be considered in some form. PL schools are academically rigorous and allowing a student the extra year to acclimate to the work load can have a positive impact. Also, a lot of guys grow a great deal with that extra year. A RS senior against a true freshman is literally man versus boy. Lehigh's wrestling team has seen great benefits with red-shirting.

[RichH2]

The AI is what distinguishes the PL from other conferences, other than the IL. And, I believe it will always be that way as part of the philosophy of having athletic teams that mirror the student body. Yes, it prevents us from recruiting some blue chip athetes, but it is who we are. However, I do think red-shirting should be considered in some form. PL schools are academically rigorous and allowing a student the extra year to acclimate to the work load can have a positive impact. Also, a lot of guys grow a great deal with that extra year. A RS senior against a true freshman is literally man versus boy. Lehigh's wrestling team has seen great benefits with red-shirting.
And it hasn't hurt their academics. It will only change if a Nova,W& M etc comes knocking.

[Andy]

Yes, league expansion might be the only selling point. At least with scholarships one could point to the prospect of recruiting kids with higher academic credentials. Redshirting only improves the quality of football, probably not something the Presidents are all that interested in.

[DFW HOYA]

At least with scholarships one could point to the prospect of recruiting kids with higher academic credentials.

I doubt Sgarlata would get kids with higher credentials with scholarships, given Georgetown's current admit rates.

[RichH2]

Yes, league expansion might be the only selling point. At least with scholarships one could point to the prospect of recruiting kids with higher academic credentials. Redshirting only improves the quality of football, probably not something the Presidents are all that interested in.

+1.
Our Presidents may not be as intransigent as Ivy group but redshirting would be a tough sell to them

[Sader87]

There are potential ways around it but red-shirting league-wide may be a tough sell when 2 of the football playing schools are strictly undergraduate (LC and HC) and the 2 service academies in other sports.

It's too bad because this is probably what is going to hold the PL back vis a vis the CAA and other strong FCS programs as red-shirting has pretty much become de facto practice almost at all strong (FCS/FBS) football programs.

[Franks Tanks]

There are potential ways around it but red-shirting league-wide may be a tough sell when 2 of the football playing schools are strictly undergraduate (LC and HC) and the 2 service academies in other sports.

It's too bad because this is probably what is going to hold the PL back vis a vis the CAA and other strong FCS programs as red-shirting has pretty much become de facto practice almost at all strong (FCS/FBS) football programs.

Did Holy Cross redshirt players during the glory days of the 80's? Perhaps redshirting just became more common amongst our competitors?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Giving PL football players an extra year to finish their degree is bad for academics, graduation rates, academic progress rate...... how, exactly? Isn't the whole point of redshirting to allow incoming freshmen athletes a chance to acclimate to a college setting and workload? PL schools are some of the places where redshirting actually makes sense because there are actual classes like chemical engineering and business classes that the great, great majority of these kids are taking.

Two arguments for redshirting:

1) PL schools allow it in other sports (ex. Lehigh wrestling), and last I heard the academic roof didn't cave it. In fact it's helped more kids get degrees.

2) The PL accepts medical redshirts/hardship waivers, so it's not philosophically opposed to redshirts under any circumstances.

[RichH2]

Redshirting for PL is one of our Ivy Lite holdovers. It remains because of inertis and the graduate school issue noted above. IMO,the latter could be avoided by banning in conference grad students in football. I realize this could raise an issue of some players extending their undergrad time by taking less than a full load to delay graduation. Not sure whether this would be a big problem.

[Andy]

No one said it would hurt academics, only that redshirting doesn't hold the prospect of attracting better students due to a deeper pool of recruits as scholarships did, and was undoubtedly a selling point (basketball proven). Why do football players deserve an extra year to get through their studies than non-footballers, they would ask. And at whose expense.

Forgive me, is there a quick answer to the question: how many scholarships per year would be granted in a redshirting program, 12? (in the case of the 60 limit PL). Or 15 and the first years exempt from counting until they play?

[Andy]

If I recall, a W&M fan may have explained the procees to us on the LC board. I'll check.

[RichH2]

No one said it would hurt academics, only that redshirting doesn't hold the prospect of attracting better students due to a deeper pool of recruits as scholarships did, and was undoubtedly a selling point (basketball proven). Why do football players deserve an extra year to get through their studies than non-footballers, they would ask. And at whose expense.

Forgive me, is there a quick answer to the question: how many scholarships per year would be granted in a redshirting program, 12? (in the case of the 60 limit PL). Or 15 and the first years exempt from counting until they play?
I think the point is it wont hurt academicz. LFN's reference to wrestling merely notes that in that sport the team GPA has gone up with redshirting. Whether athletes,as opposed to other students,should get a redshirt year is not an easy philosophical issue to answer. I believe the afgument is that athletes devote substantial chunk of time to their sport,which burden other students
do not have to carry while pursuing their studies. Let's not forget that very few of our athletes are receiving full scholarships.
I guess it would be up to each coach to figure out how to apportion their aid to comply with PL and NCAA rules as well as his budget from his school.
I recall some of that W&M post. The question,IIR,was do redshirts count vs NCAA schollie caps. It would be great if you could find it Andy.

[PAllen]

I think the point is it wont hurt academicz. LFN's reference to wrestling merely notes that in that sport the team GPA has gone up with redshirting. Whether athletes,as opposed to other students,should get a redshirt year is not an easy philosophical issue to answer. I believe the afgument is that athletes devote substantial chunk of time to their sport,which burden other students
do not have to carry while pursuing their studies. Let's not forget that very few of our athletes are receiving full scholarships.
I guess it would be up to each coach to figure out how to apportion their aid to comply with PL and NCAA rules as well as his budget from his school.
I recall some of that W&M post. The question,IIR,was do redshirts count vs NCAA schollie caps. It would be great if you could find it Andy.

99% sure that redshirts count against NCAA limits. Otherwise, "burning a redshirt" would put a team over the limit.

[Andy]

Agreeing with PAllen, Poster Tribe4SF advised that all scholarships "count" so that is why you see W&M granting as few as 12 per year. This puts a huge emphasis on getting walk-ons, a lot easier I would guess at the W&M cost of attendance level than PL schools. He said most of his walk-ons are full pay not need based aid first years (non-counters) looking for a scholarship later. I guess to do it the latter way would require a change in PL need-based aid "counting" rules.

[RichH2]

Poster Tribe4SF advised that all scholarships "count" so that is why you see W&M granting as few as 12 per year. This puts a huge emphasis on getting walk-ons, a lot easier I would guess at the W&M cost of attendance level than PL schools. He said most of his walk-ons are full pay not need based aid first years (non-counters) looking for a scholarship later. I guess to do it the latter way would require a change in PL need-based aid "counting" rules.
Got it,thanks. Crrtainly,with oir 60 cap including all aid their system unworkable. Still hoping once all at 60 ,we will slowly( this is the PL :)), phase out the inclusion of need aid.

[bison137]

99% sure that redshirts count against NCAA limits. Otherwise, "burning a redshirt" would put a team over the limit.


Yes they definitely count.

[ngineer]

And it hasn't hurt their academics. It will only change if a Nova,W& M etc comes knocking.

It has helped their academics. The wrestling team has a majority of its wrestlers with gpa's over 3.0, and there are no 'recreational majors' in which to hide.

[ngineer]

Redshirting for PL is one of our Ivy Lite holdovers. It remains because of inertis and the graduate school issue noted above. IMO,the latter could be avoided by banning in conference grad students in football. I realize this could raise an issue of some players extending their undergrad time by taking less than a full load to delay graduation. Not sure whether this would be a big problem.

I know some of the IL "grey shirt" in wrestling. Not sure about football or basketball. Grey Shirting has the student actually drop out of school for a year and then re-entering. Cornell has stockpiled wrestlers for years on an AAU team in the 'Finger Lakes" area.

[RichH2]

Not sure with the Ivies but greyshirting fairly common in FBS football. Minor difference is the recruit only sits out for Fall semester. That way he is not a counter in that year's class. When he starts in Spring semester he counts against the nxt recruiting class.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Redshirting doesn't have to mean an additional year, just an additional semester. I understand the grad school concern, but does every undergraduate finish in four years? Don't some kids need an extra semester? Between Summer School and the extra semester, I think many players balance their course load resulting in better grades during their Fall semesters. I haven't heard of many if any players at UNH attending school both semesters of their 5th year unless they were in graduate school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The jist here is, redshirting won't harm GPR/APR rates and will likely help. That may be something that interests the PL presidents a lot more than whether a star QB will get to play during his 5th year attending the school. And frankly, the AI helps in that department to ensure that the kids coming to PL schools have a good chance to be able to do the work. PL schools don't pad their rosters with clearinghouse kids.

It's kind of ironic that the supposed evils of big-time college sports - scholarships, redshirting - are (or could be) valuable tools in getting PL athletes their degrees, but it's the schools with the highest admissions standards that are most against them. Most of the abuses of the system come from admitting clearinghouse kids into state schools where they are basically there to play football and little else, but an AI provides a guarantee that won't happen, so the rest of the restrictions end up being an unnecessary straitjacket.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Even the AI is unnecessary IMHO. If you're admitting players who fit or are close to the regular student body standards who you also believe can handle college academics as well as have an administration and program that expects athletes to be students, then why do you need an AI? I don't think UNH or the school the PL'ers love to desire, W&M, admit "clearinghouse kids" (which I'm reading you to infer as the old "non predictors"). Both UNH and W&M redshirt players and have high graduation rates without an AI. Even without an AI, I sincerely doubt the Patriot League schools would be admiting athletes who couldn't handle the academic load at their respective schools. Your schools don't come across as wanting to win so bad to go that route.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Even the AI is unnecessary IMHO. If you're admitting players who fit or are close to the regular student body standards who you also believe can handle college academics as well as have an administration and program that expects athletes to be students, then why do you need an AI? I don't think UNH or the school the PL'ers love to desire, W&M, admit "clearinghouse kids" (which I'm reading you to infer as the old "non predictors"). Both UNH and W&M redshirt players and have high graduation rates without an AI. Even without an AI, I sincerely doubt the Patriot League schools would be admiting athletes who couldn't handle the academic load at their respective schools. Your schools don't come across as wanting to win so bad to go that route.



Nowhere did I mean to infer that W&M and/or UNH go this route. There are schools that do, though.

[DFW HOYA]

Most of the abuses of the system come from admitting clearinghouse kids into state schools where they are basically there to play football and little else, but an AI provides a guarantee that won't happen, so the rest of the restrictions end up being an unnecessary straitjacket.

I must have missed the orientation session, but the AI remains nothing more than a competitive restraint that was made to make nice with the Ivy. The idea that an arbitrary AI provides a guarantee of anything is misguided. W&M, Richmond, Villanova, and any number of other schools seem to do just fine without this, and I don't see why the PL has to keep following these faux-Ivy rules in its current philosophy. Does anyone think Colgate and Bucknell, freed from an AI, are suddenly going to go after kids better suited for the College of Faith?

The idea that Georgetown can't take an extra kid with a 1300 SAT because they need another one with a 1500 is a huge competitive restraint.

[ngineer]

Even the AI is unnecessary IMHO. If you're admitting players who fit or are close to the regular student body standards who you also believe can handle college academics as well as have an administration and program that expects athletes to be students, then why do you need an AI? I don't think UNH or the school the PL'ers love to desire, W&M, admit "clearinghouse kids" (which I'm reading you to infer as the old "non predictors"). Both UNH and W&M redshirt players and have high graduation rates without an AI. Even without an AI, I sincerely doubt the Patriot League schools would be admiting athletes who couldn't handle the academic load at their respective schools. Your schools don't come across as wanting to win so bad to go that route.




The AI is simply a tool to assure that all members are using the same standards. Many schools may well practice that philosophy, which is great. The AI is able to assure more objectivity into the decision making.

[RichH2]

I must have missed the orientation session, but the AI remains nothing more than a competitive restraint that was made to make nice with the Ivy. The idea that an arbitrary AI provides a guarantee of anything is misguided. W&M, Richmond, Villanova, and any number of other schools seem to do just fine without this, and I don't see why the PL has to keep following these faux-Ivy rules in its current philosophy. Does anyone think Colgate and Bucknell, freed from an AI, are suddenly going to go after kids better suited for the College of Faith?
Ng
The idea that Georgetown can't take an extra kid with a 1300 SAT because they need another one with a 1500 is a huge competitive restraint.
Correct as to gensis of AI. The real issue is the AI floor in PL,aka the Fordham amendment. Pushd by coaches because FU could admit players that no other schools could even recruit. I am not a fan of our current system but having admitted BU and Loyola has only complicated the issue inasmuch as in Bball and lax both could admit players others couldn't. I see no easy solution here.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Nowhere did I mean to infer that W&M and/or UNH go this route. There are schools that do, though.

Nor did I think that you did. Just making an example of schools with admission standards higher than the NCAA version with quality football programs that expect their players to be students and have high graduation rates. They didn't need a league AI, schools can be true to their own philosophy.

[Go...gate]

I don't get how he doesn't understand this is about the league and not Lehigh vs Lafayette. Is he oblivious to the fact that the PL took a lot of criticism for their league champ being the first ever to enter the playoffs with a losing record? Then they proceeded to complete the black-eye for the league with a bad loss? That is not Lehigh fans talking, that is FCS nation talking. No one gives a crap about budget cuts within the institution as a reason for the 5-6 record. To most people that just looks lack wavering institutional support which is another can of worms. The league is fighting too hard of a battle to earn national respect to accept making history because of futility.

BTW, I think what Lafayette fans are considering arrogance Lehigh fans consider pride. Lehigh, along with Colgate, have done a lot to get this league any amount of respect since 1997. That absolutely can not be denied.....

Thanks, Go Lehigh TU Owl. I think we'd all agree, however, that it would be great for the conference if other schools in the league had some good runs.

[clenz]

Wait....


Since when it redshirting bad and how would it harm someone going to grad school?
Do all PL students, and athletes, graduate in 8 semesters? How many credits are required.

If I wanted to graduate in 8 semesters I needed to take 5 classes per semester, ever semester. That also brings in to the discussion of the money for students and athletes. It's pretty tough to have a job to avoid taking out loans if you have a 5, or more, class load every single semester.

[RichH2]

Yup clenz, 5th year seniors are quite rare. If it were only 15 a semester ,actually doable. Engineers often have 18 credit semesters.
To say that playing any sport in the PL is challenging is an understatement. At LU quite a few take a su,mer class to lighten in season credit load.

[Bill]

Yes is correct . I even had a 21 credit semester - out of season- once, but it was brutal beyond belief.

also- clenz - not all PL schools have a grad school, which makes the issue more complex!

[Lehigh'98]

Yes is correct . I even had a 21 credit semester - out of season- once, but it was brutal beyond belief.

also- clenz - not all PL schools have a grad school, which makes the issue more complex!

That's just it though, to extend a 4 yr degree to be done in 4.5 would require very little effort aside from managing credit hours to lighten the load a bit. I went 4.5 yrs anyway wout a redshirt. In fact if we could have redshirted the 98 class, we would have been pretty scary in 99.
But I digress, also if the player is super eager to get a degree in 4 yrs for some strange reason, he could always pick up a 2nd major or minor in the 5th year. Until we start doing this, we won't be equals with the big boys.

[citdog]

The qb for Fordham is a transfer from marshall. xlolx

[clenz]

That's just it though, to extend a 4 yr degree to be done in 4.5 would require very little effort aside from managing credit hours to lighten the load a bit. I went 4.5 yrs anyway wout a redshirt. In fact if we could have redshirted the 98 class, we would have been pretty scary in 99.
But I digress, also if the player is super eager to get a degree in 4 yrs for some strange reason, he could always pick up a 2nd major or minor in the 5th year. Until we start doing this, we won't be equals with the big boys.
Grad school has no bearing on redshirting so that's why I'm confused. Very few redshirts are in grad school their 5th season. They know they have an extra semester/year to finish their degree so they lighten the class load to allow for better grades/learning.

I'm so confused by the elitist...yes I said if, flame away....attitude of this line of thinking that some conferences have.

There is next to zero downside to a redshirt for a kid.

I did my degree in 4.5 years. I could have been done in 4, but didn't want to try to fit an unpaid 40hr/week internship in with a paying job and a class load in the same semester so the fall I did my internship

[Lehigh'98]

Grad school has no bearing on redshirting so that's why I'm confused. Very few redshirts are in grad school their 5th season. They know they have an extra semester/year to finish their degree so they lighten the class load to allow for better grades/learning.

I'm so confused by the elitist...yes I said if, flame away....attitude of this line of thinking that some conferences have.

There is next to zero downside to a redshirt for a kid.

I did my degree in 4.5 years. I could have been done in 4, but didn't want to try to fit an unpaid 40hr/week internship in with a paying job and a class load in the same semester so the fall I did my internship

I agree with you..

[RichH2]

Well clenz,while I disagree with the characterization of elitist,I agree that redshirting is at least as beneficial to student athletes as coaches.There is little philosophical basis to bar redshirting. It is a holdover that Ivies required when original Colonial was founded. Sheer hypocrisy given their use of grey shirting to achieve the same result. So long as the redshirt is employed primarily to benfit the student ,it should be permitted.

[Doc QB]

Grad school has no bearing on redshirting so that's why I'm confused. Very few redshirts are in grad school their 5th season. They know they have an extra semester/year to finish their degree so they lighten the class load to allow for better grades/learning. There is next to zero downside to a redshirt for a kid.

This should be sent to the presidents, ADs, etc. Very accurate and sensible. And you dont HAVE to redshirt a whole class...suppose a kid develops later in career, maybe plays as senior, has a year of eligibilty left and as a fifth year could shine, is on course to graduate, but needs a few more credits....why not?

[clenz]

This should be sent to the presidents, ADs, etc. Very accurate and sensible. And you dont HAVE to redshirt a whole class...suppose a kid develops later in career, maybe plays as senior, has a year of eligibilty left and as a fifth year could shine, is on course to graduate, but needs a few more credits....why not?
David Johnson redshirted his first year at UNI. It allowed him another year to grow into the physical specimen that he is. It also allowed him to get his academic career started on a better foot. He wasn't a bad student in HS, but that year of red-shirting allowed him to transition a little smoother into college life.

It's not a hindrance to a kids academic career.
It doesn't make the academics of the school look worse.
Some kids don't need to red-shirt.
Many schools do red-shirt to build depth and allow a year of maturing to get 4 years of playing with a "college ready" body. There is a very...very...small number of UNI players that have played as true freshman. The PL doesn't have to have that same approach with every kid. If a kid isn't going to play as a freshman why not throw a red-shirt status on him and at-least give him the option to have a 5th year to either finish his degree at a more beneficial speed and still play 4 years on the field?
I don't believe this will hurt APR at all...I also don't think it hurts 4 year graduation rate if completed in 4.5

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot League stayed out of the playoffs because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League stayed non-scholarship because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League maintains an academic index and redshirting bans because the Ivy League did. Why can't this change as well?

[RichH2]

The Patriot League stayed out of the playoffs because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League stayed non-scholarship because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League maintains an academic index and redshirting bans because the Ivy League did. Why can't this change as well?
Have no doubt that it will at the usual pace for PL Presidents. Glacial comes to mind :)

[DFW HOYA]

Have no doubt that it will at the usual pace for PL Presidents. Glacial comes to mind :)

Will it come before or after they add Marist? xlolx

[RichH2]

Will it come before or after they add Marist? xlolx
LMAO
Upside,when Marist admitted, of necessity AI will die.

[Fordham]

The qb for Fordham is a transfer from marshall. xlolx
and we're thrilled to have him! Likely starter for us next year, barring a surprise from the incoming frosh.

[bison137]

LMAO
Upside,when Marist admitted, of necessity AI will die.



Don't think the AI would die - but the hard floor might. FWIW, note that Marist has exactly the same SAT/ACT as Loyola - and Loyola is following the AI for basketball and other sports.

[Franks Tanks]

Speaking of Marist, they somehow signed a legit 3 star RB recruit named Nasir Bonner from Imohotep Charter in Philly.

http://247sports.com/Player/Nasir-Bonner-27607

He had legit offers from the likes of Wisconsin, WVU and Arizona State. How the hell did Marist get that kid?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Speaking of Marist, they somehow signed a legit 3 star RB recruit named Nasir Bonner from Imohotep Charter in Philly.

http://247sports.com/Player/Nasir-Bonner-27607

He had legit offers from the likes of Wisconsin, WVU and Arizona State. How the hell did Marist get that kid?

"I was told when the Red Foxes go to the Patriot League we'll be playing Harvard, Georgetown and Stanford on a regular basis."

[Model Citizen]

"I was told when the Red Foxes go to the Patriot League we'll be playing Harvard, Georgetown and Stanford on a regular basis."

They already play Georgetown on a regular basis.

Personally, I wouldn't expect an invitation for Marist unless/until Georgetown drops football.

[bison137]

They already play Georgetown on a regular basis.

Personally, I wouldn't expect an invitation for Marist unless/until Georgetown drops football.


If Marist had been willing to go to scholarship football three years ago, I think they would have received an invitation at that time. Would have been a better fit than Boston U or Loyola.

[DFW HOYA]

They already play Georgetown on a regular basis.

Personally, I wouldn't expect an invitation for Marist unless/until Georgetown drops football.

You mean when Georgetown joins the CAA, right?

[Go...gate]

If Marist had been willing to go to scholarship football three years ago, I think they would have received an invitation at that time. Would have been a better fit than Boston U or Loyola.

IMO, BU is OK - they have the academic standing. Loyola simply does not. Marist would have been a far better addition to the PL.

[bison137]

IMO, BU is OK - they have the academic standing. Loyola simply does not. Marist would have been a far better addition to the PL.


Boston U has the academic standing - but is a school with 16,000 undergraduate students and almost 34,000 total students. It has far more athletic resources than PL schools and is very different academically (online courses; schools of communication, school of social work, etc.; Metropolitan College; night school; etc). It was a much better fit in America East. Perhaps it had to be added to the league to appease Holy Cross - but imo is a terrible fit for the league.

[ngineer]

I think the League was looking overall in terms of geographical footprint and # of sports. With Lacrosse becoming more and more prominent, both BU and Loyola brought more to the table.

[Go...gate]

Certainly BU is an "oddball" from a size and enrollment standpoint. Colgate may also have had something to do with BU's admission, as they are an old Red Raider rival over the years in certain sports.

[Go...gate]

"I was told when the Red Foxes go to the Patriot League we'll be playing Harvard, Georgetown and Stanford on a regular basis."

Was this in the article?

[Model Citizen]

No. He was trying to make a joke.

[Fox 94]

I agree about BU and Loyola. Marist would have been a better fit.

[hebmskebm]

The Patriot League stayed out of the playoffs because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League stayed non-scholarship because the Ivy League did. That changed.

The Patriot League maintains an academic index and redshirting bans because the Ivy League did. Why can't this change as well?

Perhaps they're fearful if they fully transition into the "regular" FCS model, it would fray the PL-IL relationship to the point they would become just another conference to them. The robust OOC scheduling between the two could finally come to an end (obviously it wouldn't end outright).

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Perhaps they're fearful if they fully transition into the "regular" FCS model, it would fray the PL-IL relationship to the point they would become just another conference to them. The robust OOC scheduling between the two could finally come to an end (obviously it wouldn't end outright).

Each PL school has had its Ivy League relationships, institution to institution. (for Bucknell, that means Cornell these days, and, not so long ago, Penn) Beyond that, the 'PL-IL conference relationship' in football is done. Put a fork in that.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Each PL school has had its Ivy League relationships, institution to institution. (for Bucknell, that means Cornell these days, and, not so long ago, Penn) Beyond that, the 'PL-IL conference relationship' in football is done. Put a fork in that.

I'm not sure I buy that. Lehigh has 3 Ivies scheduled for the next two years (according to the LU board); Penn 2x, Princeton 2x and Yale 2x. Princeton has become Lehigh's traditional IL opponent. The Tigers have developed into a legit OOC rival for Lehigh. I believe the Penn-Villanova series is coming to an end which could explain the Quakers picking Lehigh back up again. The retirement of Bags probably has something to do with it as well. Yale has been a consistent opponent over the last 10-12 years and that doesn't appear to be changing. Hopefully Harvard returns again. It's been a few years since LU played the Crimson. Lehigh has almost no association with Brown and a very limited one with Dartmouth. Cornell and Columbia have popped up a few times. Which in reality, is a few times too many. Although, Ithaca is awesome...

Holy Cross is also set with IL opponents moving forward iirc.

I like the IL games. As long as they're against the right ones I see no reason why LU can't have 3 of them on the schedule most years. I respect the top IL teams a legit FCS opponents. Great stadiums, beautiful campuses all within a days drive (kinda) xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

In football, some Ivies are moving away from the PL schools, which is regrettable.

After 2015, Colgate will be down to one or two Ivy opponents per season, as Princeton will not be renewing for the foreseeable future.

[Lehigh'98]

It's been mentioned before, but there are only so many teams in the Northeast in FCS. Unless the PL - IL games start becoming lopsided, which at the moment I don't see, the Ivies don't have a lot of options. They already avoid the CAA like the plague(I know, not Dartmouth). NEC can fill only so many spots. Pioneer not really competitive, although that seems to matter less nowadays.

[breezy]

Holy Cross has long-term agreements with Harvard and Yale that begin in either 2016 or 2017 and continue through the middle of the next decade.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think the PL/IL relationship will truly die. Columbia, Penn, Cornell and Princeton have been playing Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell pretty much since the dawn of college football. Holy Cross and Dartmouth (and I think Harvard) have a very long history. Fordham and Georgetown have different history but also competed against Harvard, Yale, Brown and the like.

Also, I find it hard to believe Robert Kraft will want to be rubbing elbows with the guys who are running CoF. Remember, it took 100 years before schools like Yale and Columbia would even schedule CCSU, and they were D-I for quite some time.

The IL's biggest (some might say only) trading point is its history. Recasting games against CoF as "history" would be too big a challenge.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham and Georgetown have different history but also competed against Harvard, Yale, Brown and the like.


Georgetown had little or no Ivy history in its football heyday. Outside of 1937 scoreless tie with Penn, the school did not play an Ivy team from 1924 to 2003. Its big rivalries were West Virginia, Maryland, NYU, and Boston College.

That having been said, the Ivy is not going to become cannon fodder for the PL 6, which is why they are looking to fill schedules with teams like Georgetown and Marist, whom they wouldn't have even considered as few as 15 years ago. Remember, Georgetown only got onto the Ivy rotation when Towson left the PL and its non-conference schedules opened up.

One scenario has the Ivy making deals with Georgetown, Marist and Davidson to fill up its early season schedules. Each Ivy school would then be responsible for only one or two "play-up" games a year, either versus a PL school (Harvard-Holy Cross, Cornell-Colgate, etc.), or a local game like Penn-Villanova, Brown-URI, etc.

H-Y-P doesn't want to lose 62-7 to Lehigh every year and will protect its schedules accordingly.

[RichH2]

Doubtful HYP will get routed by a PL squad anytime soon. At best schollies even the playfield between the two. With 4 classes best of PL could beat best of IL,unlikely to rout ,certainly not on a consistent basis. Do think that PL could have a winning record vs IL more often.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

In football, some Ivies are moving away from the PL schools, which is regrettable.

After 2015, Colgate will be down to one or two Ivy opponents per season, as Princeton will not be renewing for the foreseeable future.

Yup, put a fork in it. Some schools will have relationships with individual IL schools, others won't. These relationships will have nothing to do with league offices.