Why Idaho State Still Might Have a Shot

[kalm]

Listening to the FCS Wedge interview with former Selection Committee Chairman, Jim O'Day, he was fairly emphatic about the committee taking into consideration teams that through financial necessity schedule two FBS. I think he was also tipping his hat to the challenges of scheduling out west and cited Idaho State and EWU as examples.

Given those circumstances, I think that's fair. If ISU was located within a bus ride of 30 other FCS schools they more than likely would have dropped one of their DII's for a winnable FCS OOC game. One of their DII wins was against Chadron State who is Massey #260, better than half of the teams on Bucknell's schedule.

The committee should be looking at who the best teams are for at-large consideration. The Bengals are ranked 21 in Massey with a SoS of 18 placing them well ahead of most of the bubble teams. Given the disparity in scheduling, 8-4 with that schedule is a much more tangible measurement than the somewhat arbitrary DI win threshold that some hang their bracket hats on.

Flame away.

[Bisonator]

A line has to be drawn somewhere. I agree that many top D2 teams are as good if not better then the bottom FCS teams. I also agree that there needs to be a better way of determining SOS. With that said where do you draw the line when teams start scheduling multiple D2's? I think the 1 D2 counter is a good compromise.

[robsnotes4u]

O'day was part of the selection committee 2008-2011. I would guess every selection committee has their own ideas, making their own identity. This committee will have different feelings on what tools are beneficial in selecting teams.

The question becomes this. With a Montana State win does the BSC only get two teams in the playoffs? Who in the BSC would have a strong enough resume to deserve to get in?

[Professor Chaos]

Last year's selection committee seemed to treat the mythical 7 D1 win threshold pretty liberally when they gave SHSU an at large bid. I still don't know if it was ever determined whether Houston Baptist and Incarnate Word were D1 counters last year but if not SHSU had 6 D1 wins. I definitely think there will be scenarios in the future where a 6 D1 team gets in just because of the expanded field and the increased FBS games some teams are scheduling (it's not just teams out west either - although they do have a better excuse). I think that when they expanded the playoffs to 24 they even explicitly changed the wording of their selection criteria to "having less than 6 D1 wins "may" put a team in jeopardy of being selected".

[BisonFan02]

Pitchforks come out if Idaho state gets in over 8-4 teams from the Valley. Northern Iowa, SDSU, and Indiana St are all at 7-4....YSU is at 7-4 too, but they get to come to Fargo next Saturday.

[citdog]

Pitchforks come out if Idaho state gets in over 8-4 teams from the Valley. Northern Iowa, SDSU, and Indiana St are all at 7-4....YSU is at 7-4 too, but they get to come to Fargo next Saturday.

y'all are going to be pissed anyway......

[BisonFan02]

y'all are going to be pissed anyway......

Take me off of that list of people that will be pissed. I'm just addressing Idaho St. as far as where they stand. 4 (5 if you include YSU at 7-4) at large teams from the MVFC are currently ahead Idaho St. as far as resume.

[kalm]

Pitchforks come out if Idaho state gets in over 8-4 teams from the Valley. Northern Iowa, SDSU, and Indiana St are all at 7-4....YSU is at 7-4 too, but they get to come to Fargo next Saturday.

I don't see that happening.

[BisonBacker]

One DII is fine. 2 is not it's that simple. You can make excuses till the cows come home it doesn't cut it.

[BisonFan02]

I don't see that happening.

I don't either, but if only based on resume/team instead of "Gosh, we can't have 5-6 teams from the MVFC in"...tell me who's better at 8-4 than those teams?

[REALBird]

y'all are going to be pissed anyway......

Citdog, it's a double standard. I know a lot of Big 10 teams in the MVFC footprint have decided they will no longer play FCS schools anymore. So where does that put the MVFC? When schools like the Ivies, Patriot and NEC rarely leave their own back yard, and the number of schools out West limited (same excuse as above for Idaho State), it's not exactly as if the Dakotas are that much closer to FCS D1 schools. We get to feast on the OVC (Eastern Illinois, Austin Peay, SEMO, Murray State, Tennessee Tech, etc.) and then when they get thoroughly trounced, we get to hear...."Well the OVC is down this year." You have to pick a criteria and stick to it, and it has to be applicable to all schools.

If you schedule a D2 school due to travel expenses and budget, then you should be considering if you're playing at the right level. Didn't at least two BSC teams play an OOC game against each other that doesn't count toward the conference standings? I mean I feel for ISUo, but it seems other schools have found ways to get around the travel logistic.

I guess if Montana and South Dakota which are separated by 1015 miles can play an OOC game, then I don't think anyone else can use travel as an excuse.
What's the difference in travel between Incarnate Word and Fargo (1341 miles)? The distance between Liberty and Indiana State (615 miles)? Heck YSU and NDSU will play a game this week that will cover 1049 miles.

I guess I'm amazed that with schools traveling these distances during the regular season, that the NCAA still spouts this "regionalization" crap. That's just an excuse to have fan bases willing to travel to see their school play on the road jump in the car and make the trip. It's about putting butts in seats and making money, it's not about slotting the teams, pairing them up and letting them play.

[BisonBacker]

Citdog, it's a double standard. I know a lot of Big 10 teams in the MVFC footprint have decided they will no longer play FCS schools anymore. So where does that put the MVFC? When schools like the Ivies, Patriot and NEC rarely leave their own back yard, and the number of schools out West limited (same excuse as above for Idaho State), it's not exactly as if the Dakotas are that much closer to FCS D1 schools. We get to feast on the OVC (Eastern Illinois, Austin Peay, SEMO, Murray State, Tennessee Tech, etc.) and then when they get thoroughly trounced, we get to hear...."Well the OVC is down this year." You have to pick a criteria and stick to it, and it has to be applicable to all schools.

If you schedule a D2 school due to travel expenses and budget, then you should be considering if you're playing at the right level. Didn't at least two BSC teams play an OOC game against each other that doesn't count toward the conference standings? I mean I feel for ISUo, but it seems other schools have found ways to get around the travel logistic.

I guess if Montana and South Dakota which are separated by 1015 miles can play an OOC game, then I don't think anyone else can use travel as an excuse.

Good post and I agree.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Can we start calling it the Big Fluff again?

[REALBird]

Can we start calling it the Big Fluff again?

Or just Add Montana and Montana State and cannibalize their conference. That way our footprint is wider, but we can justify the 8 bids the MVFC would get each year. LOL.

[chattownmocs]

Listening to the FCS Wedge interview with former Selection Committee Chairman, Jim O'Day, he was fairly emphatic about the committee taking into consideration teams that through financial necessity schedule two FBS. I think he was also tipping his hat to the challenges of scheduling out west and cited Idaho State and EWU as examples.

Given those circumstances, I think that's fair. If ISU was located within a bus ride of 30 other FCS schools they more than likely would have dropped one of their DII's for a winnable FCS OOC game. One of their DII wins was against Chadron State who is Massey #260, better than half of the teams on Bucknell's schedule.

The committee should be looking at who the best teams are for at-large consideration. The Bengals are ranked 21 in Massey with a SoS of 18 placing them well ahead of most of the bubble teams. Given the disparity in scheduling, 8-4 with that schedule is a much more tangible measurement than the somewhat arbitrary DI win threshold that some hang their bracket hats on.

Flame away.

Samford should get a pass and at least be considered for beating D2s then, since they lost a conference game and everyone went to 12 games at basically the same time. Chattanooga should be a clear cut seed as well.

[thebootfitter]

I guess if Montana and South Dakota which are separated by 1015 miles can play an OOC game, then I don't think anyone else can use travel as an excuse.
What's the difference in travel between Incarnate Word and Fargo (1341 miles)? The distance between Liberty and Indiana State (615 miles)? Heck YSU and NDSU will play a game this week that will cover 1049 miles.

I don't pretend to understand the finances of a collegiate athletic program, but the examples you are throwing up there are not all consistent. It's not just about mileage.

If two programs don't both have attendance figures to support long-distance home and homes, then they could end up losing money on them.

Some programs are in a position to pay teams to visit for guarantee games. Others are not.

And in-conference travel is a necessary expense as a function of being in the conference -- even IF they happen to lose more money than they gain from the reciprocal game. Travel for OOC games is discretionary, so different decisions may be made.

[kalm]

I don't pretend to understand the finances of a collegiate athletic program, but the examples you are throwing up there are not all consistent. It's not just about mileage.

If two programs don't both have attendance figures to support long-distance home and homes, then they could end up losing money on them.

Some programs are in a position to pay teams to visit for guarantee games. Others are not.

And in-conference travel is a necessary expense as a function of being in the conference -- even IF they happen to lose more money than they gain from the reciprocal game. Travel for OOC games is discretionary, so different decisions may be made.

Agreed. Somebody used the Montana to USD comparison but I would think UM's $1 million gate makes those things easier.

[MR. CHICKEN]

20057......CAA SQWADS.......GOTTAH GO TA MAINE........LONG WAY FO' LOBSTAH ROLL....AN' UH W........xnodx...AWQ!

[kalm]

20057......CAA SQWADS.......GOTTAH GO TA MAINE........LONG WAY FO' LOBSTAH ROLL....AN' UH W........xnodx...AWQ!

The other issue for this discussion would be bringing 7-5 CAA's, MVFC, and BSC's into the mix.

Just for arguments sake, would you take a 7-5 W&M over an ISUo? How about an 8-4 NAU with their three bad losses?

[MR. CHICKEN]

20058.........DUH TREES...xnodx..........'JACKS.....xsmhx...AWQ!

[REALBird]

Agreed. Somebody used the Montana to USD comparison but I would think UM's $1 million gate makes those things easier.

So bootfitter, kalm, then tell me what is it about?

The original post was about ISUo having to schedule D2 schools due to the limited number of FCS schools they can hop on the bus and go play against. So is it about travel/mileage or not?

If they also don't have the attendance figures to support a region home/home, then ISUo is the one paying the D2 school to come to their digs. The wonderful SRS clearly doesn't place as much value on a D2 win, much less a D2 win @ Home vs. going on the road.

So what I'm hearing is ISUo can't find anyone to play with in the Great Northwest. They are reluctant to take a "buy" game from a Pac-12 or MWC team which could reduce travel. But they ARE willing to schedule two winnable games against D2 teams and pay them to "reduce" cost/travel.

Once again, there are options available for ISUo, they chose to go the route of two D2 games and for that choice they should not be rewarded for chosing the proverbial "path of least resistance". As much as I've railed on SHSU this year, I'd take them and their D2 loss vs. a top ranked D2 team over ISUo if I was simply measuring the "quality" of the opponent and a final playoff slot, provided SHSU doesn't win their autobid.

Kalm, my only reply to your comment is a buy game vs. Montana by USD probably benefitted USD. But not as much as that game would have benefitted them if they played say Minnesota from the Big 10. Their geographic footprint isn't much better as I said before, but with Big 10 schools taking their treasure chest home, why wouldn't USD take the money from Montana (even if slightly less) for a quality game? Dare I say this, but outside of Montana and maybe NDSU who sells out each game, how many FCS schools can really offer to "buy" another school and profit from it?

[Sycamore62]

Citdog, it's a double standard. I know a lot of Big 10 teams in the MVFC footprint have decided they will no longer play FCS schools anymore. So where does that put the MVFC? When schools like the Ivies, Patriot and NEC rarely leave their own back yard, and the number of schools out West limited (same excuse as above for Idaho State), it's not exactly as if the Dakotas are that much closer to FCS D1 schools. We get to feast on the OVC (Eastern Illinois, Austin Peay, SEMO, Murray State, Tennessee Tech, etc.) and then when they get thoroughly trounced, we get to hear...."Well the OVC is down this year." You have to pick a criteria and stick to it, and it has to be applicable to all schools.

If you schedule a D2 school due to travel expenses and budget, then you should be considering if you're playing at the right level. Didn't at least two BSC teams play an OOC game against each other that doesn't count toward the conference standings? I mean I feel for ISUo, but it seems other schools have found ways to get around the travel logistic.

I guess if Montana and South Dakota which are separated by 1015 miles can play an OOC game, then I don't think anyone else can use travel as an excuse.
What's the difference in travel between Incarnate Word and Fargo (1341 miles)? The distance between Liberty and Indiana State (615 miles)? Heck YSU and NDSU will play a game this week that will cover 1049 miles.

I guess I'm amazed that with schools traveling these distances during the regular season, that the NCAA still spouts this "regionalization" crap. That's just an excuse to have fan bases willing to travel to see their school play on the road jump in the car and make the trip. It's about putting butts in seats and making money, it's not about slotting the teams, pairing them up and letting them play.

It may come down to who is writing a check for the plane trip. The school or the NCAA. Regular season it would be the school, playoffs would be the NCAA.

[BisonFan02]

So bootfitter, kalm, then tell me what is it about?

The original post was about ISUo having to schedule D2 schools due to the limited number of FCS schools they can hop on the bus and go play against. So is it about travel/mileage or not?

If they also don't have the attendance figures to support a region home/home, then ISUo is the one paying the D2 school to come to their digs. The wonderful SRS clearly doesn't place as much value on a D2 win, much less a D2 win @ Home vs. going on the road.

So what I'm hearing is ISUo can't find anyone to play with in the Great Northwest. They are reluctant to take a "buy" game from a Pac-12 or MWC team which could reduce travel. But they ARE willing to schedule two winnable games against D2 teams and pay them to "reduce" cost/travel.

Once again, there are options available for ISUo, they chose to go the route of two D2 games and for that choice they should not be rewarded for chosing the proverbial "path of least resistance". As much as I've railed on SHSU this year, I'd take them and their D2 loss vs. a top ranked D2 team over ISUo if I was simply measuring the "quality" of the opponent and a final playoff slot, provided SHSU doesn't win their autobid.

Kalm, my only reply to your comment is a buy game vs. Montana by USD probably benefitted USD. But not as much as that game would have benefitted them if they played say Minnesota from the Big 10. Their geographic footprint isn't much better as I said before, but with Big 10 schools taking their treasure chest home, why wouldn't USD take the money from Montana (even if slightly less) for a quality game? Dare I say this, but outside of Montana and maybe NDSU who sells out each game, how many FCS schools can really offer to "buy" another school and profit from it?

Wasn't USD and Montana a home/home?

[REALBird]

It may come down to who is writing a check for the plane trip. The school or the NCAA. Regular season it would be the school, playoffs would be the NCAA.

Agreed Sycamore62. But lets not kid ourselves. Teams are "bidding" to host games. As many have stated before, I don't know the cost of transporting 65 scholarship athletes and equipment across the country, but is it more than the minimum $30,000 bid? I'm sure some school bid well above the minimum, so is it more than that?

Seems that the host team is theorhetically paying the other school to come to their school for a game. The host school sets the ticket prices, if they can get a decent crowd, or average numbers like Appy State, YSU, NDSU or Montana have in the past, seems like the game can be a bonafide money maker. Not sure if any revenue splitting takes place during the playoffs between member institutions or the NCAA. What is the end game for the NCAA if host schools are PAYING to host the games? The cost of television/air time?

Maybe as much as FCS fans rail on the FBS guys, they do get it right in that I want to see if Oregon (West) can beat an Auburn (South) in a game of contrasting styles. I don't want to watch UNI/ILS or ILS/YSU, ILS/SDSU a second time in any year. I want to see EWU's offense vs. the Sycamore DEF and see which conference is better on AnyGivenSaturday.

[REALBird]

Wasn't USD and Montana a home/home?

It very well could have been, I didn't check. But even so, couldn't ISUo schedule a good home/home with a MVFC team as well?

[kalm]

So bootfitter, kalm, then tell me what is it about?

The original post was about ISUo having to schedule D2 schools due to the limited number of FCS schools they can hop on the bus and go play against. So is it about travel/mileage or not?

If they also don't have the attendance figures to support a region home/home, then ISUo is the one paying the D2 school to come to their digs. The wonderful SRS clearly doesn't place as much value on a D2 win, much less a D2 win @ Home vs. going on the road.

So what I'm hearing is ISUo can't find anyone to play with in the Great Northwest. They are reluctant to take a "buy" game from a Pac-12 or MWC team which could reduce travel. But they ARE willing to schedule two winnable games against D2 teams and pay them to "reduce" cost/travel.

Once again, there are options available for ISUo, they chose to go the route of two D2 games and for that choice they should not be rewarded for chosing the proverbial "path of least resistance". As much as I've railed on SHSU this year, I'd take them and their D2 loss vs. a top ranked D2 team over ISUo if I was simply measuring the "quality" of the opponent and a final playoff slot, provided SHSU doesn't win their autobid.

Kalm, my only reply to your comment is a buy game vs. Montana by USD probably benefitted USD. But not as much as that game would have benefitted them if they played say Minnesota from the Big 10. Their geographic footprint isn't much better as I said before, but with Big 10 schools taking their treasure chest home, why wouldn't USD take the money from Montana (even if slightly less) for a quality game? Dare I say this, but outside of Montana and maybe NDSU who sells out each game, how many FCS schools can really offer to "buy" another school and profit from it?

It's evidently about many things. xlolx

For the record, I acknowledge ISU's two DII's hurt them immensely and jeopardize their chances.

ISU played two "buy" games against USU and Utah this year (just like Davis, SUU, and UNI did). I'm quite positive that if they could have replaced one of the DII's with an FCS they would have. Every A.D. wants the most favorable schedule possible and a balanced budget. Sometimes those are hard things to achieve. If it were easy, no one in the sub-division would schedule more than one FBS, no one would schedule a lower division game, and everyone would fully fund scholarships. I don't know why you're struggling with this…unless you have some inside information regarding ISU's "other options." If so, please list them.

[Professor Chaos]

Wasn't USD and Montana a home/home?


It very well could have been, I didn't check. But even so, couldn't ISUo schedule a good home/home with a MVFC team as well?
It was a 2 for 1. USD played in Montana in 2012 and this year. Montana went there in 2013.

[tomq04]

It seems the BSC is going to have to follow the EWU/MSU path of playing each other for their 4th OOC game, which is great in this oversized conference. Certainly more appealing than a 2nd D2.

[REALBird]

It's evidently about many things. xlolx

For the record, I acknowledge ISU's two DII's hurt them immensely and jeopardize their chances.

ISU played two "buy" games against USU and Utah this year (just like Davis, SUU, and UNI did). I'm quite positive that if they could have replaced one of the DII's with an FCS they would have. Every A.D. wants the most favorable schedule possible and a balanced budget. Sometimes those are hard things to achieve. If it were easy, no one in the sub-division would schedule more than one FBS, no one would schedule a lower division game, and everyone would fully fund scholarships. I don't know why you're struggling with this…unless you have some inside information regarding ISU's "other options." If so, please list them.

No inside information, not struggling with anything. The original post was someone else's rationale WHY ISUo might still have a chance. The basis of that argument was viable FCS competition within a range of bus. Many have stated their opinions on the D2 games, and my opinion was they could have explored other options outside of two D2 games.

As stated, there are/were a number of options ISUo had and they chose this schedule. Time for the committee to decide if that's worthy of a bid. Some of us seemed to think other schools with D2's or all D-1 losses would be more worthy candidates for that bid.

I'm not advocating for anyone honestly, but travel/mileage did come to mind knowing some schools DO have made some hails for FB games this year.

[kalm]

No inside information, not struggling with anything. The original post was someone else's rationale WHY ISUo might still have a chance. The basis of that argument was viable FCS competition within a range of bus. Many have stated their opinions on the D2 games, and my opinion was they could have explored other options outside of two D2 games.

As stated, there are/were a number of options ISUo had and they chose this schedule. Time for the committee to decide if that's worthy of a bid. Some of us seemed to think other schools with D2's or all D-1 losses would be more worthy candidates for that bid.

I'm not advocating for anyone honestly, but travel/mileage did come to mind knowing some schools DO have made some hails for FB games this year.

I qualified the thread title with "might".

Please list the other options ISUo had this year.

[Sycamore62]

Im working under the assumption that they bid a guarantee for the game but they NCAA basically takes all the money and divides up what each team gets or something like that.

for example if NDSU bids $300,000 for a game and in a different game someone bids $30,000 and both make $500,000. the NCAA still takes $500,000 and then decides what each team will make.

thats a statement/question

[kalm]

It seems the BSC is going to have to follow the EWU/MSU path of playing each other for their 4th OOC game, which is great in this oversized conference. Certainly more appealing than a 2nd D2.

That's right. Someone smacked that earlier in thread which is stupid. We can't play them in conference every year, so the two schools have made a deal to play OOC in season's when we're not scheduled. Very smart and a solid FCS game to boost the OOC.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Idaho State had 4 OOC games and decided to schedule two D2 teams and two FBS programs. There is no "excuse" for that type of scheduling. The AD/administration simply failed to put together a "smart/respectable" OOC slate. IMO, Idaho State expected to struggle again and the decision makers decided the bottom line was, without a doubt, the most important thing. I have zero sympathy for these type of athletic departments. FBS has enough of them.....

[MTfan4life]

I qualified the thread title with "might".

Please list the other options ISUo had this year.

I posted this somewhere else, but I think they don't have other options. When the Big Sky expanded, it killed Idaho State's non-conference schedule because those are the teams they'd play each season. Also, they've almost always played 2, sometimes 3 FBS teams. There's definitely a financial problem there just like the recent news at Portland State. A lot of these low-brow Big Sky teams aren't playing D2 schools to gain some advantage in the playoff system. It's because that seems their only option for picking up home games. The last time Idaho State traveled a significant difference for a non-conference D-1AA game was in 1992 against Northern Iowa.

[CrazyCat]

The last two responses are spot on. With their strong showing this year. I would hope their AD schedules accordingly next year.

[chattownmocs]

That's right. Someone smacked that earlier in thread which is stupid. We can't play them in conference every year, so the two schools have made a deal to play OOC in season's when we're not scheduled. Very smart and a solid FCS game to boost the OOC.

It is stupid. If this is such a problem add another conference game!!! Hello

[Sycamore62]

exchanging one or both of the D2 games for FCS games wouldnt have guaranteed 1 or 2 more D1 games

[FargoBison]

I think they would have a shot over 7-5 teams but that is about it.

They have an issue outside of their non-DI games and that is a lack of quality wins. There is really no compelling reason to put them in.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

exchanging one or both of the D2 games for FCS games wouldnt have guaranteed 1 or 2 more D1 games

Not only is it two D2 games but one is a Canadian school! I know they compete in the NCAA, but still...

The BSC sports fans on here can fill everyone in on Bengal men's hoops. They neither expect nor try to win.....:p

[PantherRob82]

Please list the other options ISUo had this year.

Not making the playoffs. xlolx

[kalm]

Not making the playoffs. xlolx

That's the thing. Eveyone talks like they know ISU had other options at their disposal. O'day acknowledged that at least his committee's took scheduling challenges into account. ISU is more than likely going to lose out in comparisons to 8-4 teams from power conferences with only one lower division game. But it's not a slam dunk and they certainly should get a look compared to Bryant, Bucknell, BCU etc, who have numerous teams on their scheduled ranked well behind Chadron State in Massey, or for that matter someone like an NAU with 3 bad losses to none for ISU. Another example would be if SHSU finishes 8-4 but loses to the auto-bid. Do they get in ahead of ISU with a DII loss and a 3 touchdown loss to EWU who ISU lost by 3 too.

Again...they MIGHT have a shot. That is all.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

That's the thing. Eveyone talks like they know ISU had other options at their disposal. O'day acknowledged that at least his committee's took scheduling challenges into account. ISU is more than likely going to lose out in comparisons to 8-4 teams from power conferences with only one lower division game. But it's not a slam dunk and they certainly should get a look compared to Bryant, Bucknell, BCU etc, who have numerous teams on their scheduled ranked well behind Chadron State in Massey, or for that matter someone like an NAU with 3 bad losses to none for ISU. Another example would be if SHSU finishes 8-4 but loses to the auto-bid. Do they get in ahead of ISU with a DII loss and a 3 touchdown loss to EWU who ISU lost by 3 too.

Again...they MIGHT have a shot. That is all.

The two FBS games are as much of a problem as the two D2 contests. Those 4 games as a whole is a failure in terms of practical scheduling......

[MTfan4life]

The two FBS games are as much of a problem as the two D2 contests. Those 4 games as a whole is a failure in terms of practical scheduling......

You can't really downplay their FBS games. They absolutely HAVE to schedule those games to keep their program afloat. You keep posting this like their AD has other options than scheduling multiple FBS games. This is not like the FBS where they schedule out of greed. ISU is scheduling FBS teams out of need.

[FargoBison]

Again who has ISU beaten? That Cal Poly win at home has lost a lot of its luster...If they had beaten EWU at least that would have given them a compelling argument in the at-large debate.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

You can't really downplay their FBS games. They absolutely HAVE to schedule those games to keep their program afloat.

Which is why making the playoffs is not their priority. At the end of the day, those 2 FBS games mean WAY more to the university than a FCS playoff game. Just like in FBS, there's a lot of leaches in FCS. Idaho State is a leach....

Their men's basketball team is among the very worst in D1 and their football program is basically broke. There's a lot of issues in Pocatello. Perhaps the school will make some hard choices in the future. They along with a few other need to take a serious look at their respective athletic departments. The FCS has 8-10 programs that shouldn't exist based on economics. Idaho State and Nicholls State really come to mind....

[kalm]

Which is why making the playoffs is not their priority. At the end of the day, those 2 FBS games mean WAY more to the university than a FCS playoff game. Just like in FBS, there's a lot of leaches in FCS. Idaho State is a leach....

Their men's basketball team is among the very worst in D1 and their football program is basically broke. There's a lot of issues in Pocatello. Perhaps the school will make some hard choices in the future. They along with a few other need to take a serious look at their respective athletic departments. The FCS has 8-10 programs that shouldn't exist based on economics. Idaho State and Nicholls State really come to mind....

News flash:
Many FCS football programs are underfunded.
Scheduling problems are exacerbated out west.
According to O'Day, this has been taken into account during selection.

[chattownmocs]

News flash:
Many FCS football programs are underfunded.
Scheduling problems are exacerbated out west.
According to O'Day, this has been taken into account during selection.

add another conference game oh reasonable one.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

News flash:
Many FCS football programs are underfunded.
Scheduling problems are exacerbated out west.
According to O'Day, this has been taken into account during selection.

I believe it's all about effort. The schools that try and are committed, EWU, Montana, MSU, Cal Poly, NAU etc find games and succeed on a regular basis. Idaho State has fallen into the trap of "whoa is me" and have let the athletic programs flounder....

[kalm]

add another conference game oh reasonable one.

If you're suggesting the conference move to a 9 game schedule, I'm sure they've looked into it and found the 8 game format more manageable. If you're suggesting they do like EWU and Montana State have done, I agree they should and perhaps they are considering it, but there's still a limited amount of teams.

Geography Lesson:
There are 13 FCS teams west of the Dakota's and Texas. They are all still a 1000 miles from SLC and MVFC competition. That being said, the BSC, MVFC, and SLC have really stepped up their OOC scheduling which is great to see. That still doesn't meet the demand for OOC FCS games.

There are approximately 8,000 FCS teams within bus ride of Chattanooga.

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I believe it's all about effort. The schools that try and are committed, EWU, Montana, MSU, Cal Poly, NAU etc find games and succeed on a regular basis. Idaho State has fallen into the trap of "whoa is me" and have let the athletic programs flounder....

This could be accurate. Please list your insider knowledge regarding ISU's efforts.

[Grizzlies82]

Go Lehigh, I agree. The Idaho State administration put them in this box with the scheduling of both two FBS and two DII. Yet after years of floundering there was little thought given to this potentially harming them come playoff time. Without the benefit of hindsight, they made a practical decision to pick up two large paychecks (Utah & Utah St) and pick up two home games they probably wouldn't have filled otherwise (the DII's).

Out of conference schedule for all Big Sky schools has been a problem for years. The inclusion of Cal Davis, Cal Poly, So Utah & No Dakota into the conference made it worse. Options are very limited: Everyone will be forced to play a full Big Sky (conference & non-conference games) schedule, cut deals for home & home series with those far afield, or take as many FBS paycheck games as possible. Yet every option except the "Big Sky" schedule means fewer home games. Schools like MT State & Montana can sell enough tickets to pay to bring in a Bucknell or Monmount and make it pencil out for both teams but few others can. I agree Idaho State put themselves into this predicament but I don't really see what other options they had as a cash strapped program. That said, I really don't believe they should, or will, be in this year's playoffs. None the less, Krammer and those kids deserve kudos for their turnaround.

[kalm]

Go Lehigh, I agree. The Idaho State administration put them in this box with the scheduling of both two FBS and two DII. Yet after years of floundering there was little thought given to this potentially harming them come playoff time. Without the benefit of hindsight, they made a practical decision to pick up two large paychecks (Utah & Utah St) and pick up two home games they probably wouldn't have filled otherwise (the DII's).

Out of conference schedule for all Big Sky schools has been a problem for years. The inclusion of Cal Davis, Cal Poly, So Utah & No Dakota into the conference made it worse. Options are very limited: Everyone will be forced to play a full Big Sky (conference & non-conference games) schedule, cut deals for home & home series with those far afield, or take as many FBS paycheck games as possible. Yet every option except the "Big Sky" schedule means fewer home games. Schools like MT State & Montana can sell enough tickets to pay to bring in a Bucknell or Monmount and make it pencil out for both teams but few others can. I agree Idaho State put themselves into this predicament but I don't really see what other options they had as a cash strapped program. That said, I really don't believe they should, or will, be in this year's playoffs. None the less, Krammer and those kids deserve kudos for their turnaround.

Good post. And the committee seemingly may take this into account...was my whole point.

[REALBird]

Good post. And the committee seemingly may take this into account...was my whole point.

Gentlemen, by no means did I infer that I knew what ISUo's options were, and honestly I guess I simply didn't realize how FEW schools there are out West for BSC teams to play. Whether the committee takes it under consideration, who knows.

My next question is did the BSC conference member schools think it would be a good idea to add 4 schools knowing it limited their scheduling options OOC to Univ. of San Diego? Also, it would seem that the BSC would try to partner with another conference for more Home/Home, 2 for 1 schedules with maybe the MVFC, or Southland to ensure schools like Idaho State can get some non-conf games against quality opponents? Dare I say, if Mississippi Valley State can travel from the Delta of Mississippi to the middle of Illinois to play Illinois State. Would it be possible to get a Prairie View A&M, Texas Southern or some SWAC team to accept a buy game, or is Idaho State merely that cash strapped?

Then again, do you guys consider it an Idaho State problem, or a BSC problem overall. It seems the Montana schools have the resources to bring in other teams, or travel to other schools (if needed). How much does the BSC stretch itself for it's conference members, or do you guys think the conference will contract at some point? Serious question.....

[SactoHornetFan]

For the record, Sacramento State and Weber State played a non-conference game this year as well as next. It is what it is for us out West. We played one FBS game (Cal), one drop down game (Menlo-NAIA) and one other FCS non-conference game (Incarnate Word) this year. We shot ourselves not winning the MSU game or even the ISU game.

[Sycamore62]

ISUo at 8-4 OR
ISUb at 7-5

which one would be the last team or so.

[kalm]

ISUo at 8-4 OR
ISUb at 7-5

which one would be the last team or so.

ISUb

[kalm]

Gentlemen, by no means did I infer that I knew what ISUo's options were, and honestly I guess I simply didn't realize how FEW schools there are out West for BSC teams to play. Whether the committee takes it under consideration, who knows.

My next question is did the BSC conference member schools think it would be a good idea to add 4 schools knowing it limited their scheduling options OOC to Univ. of San Diego? Also, it would seem that the BSC would try to partner with another conference for more Home/Home, 2 for 1 schedules with maybe the MVFC, or Southland to ensure schools like Idaho State can get some non-conf games against quality opponents? Dare I say, if Mississippi Valley State can travel from the Delta of Mississippi to the middle of Illinois to play Illinois State. Would it be possible to get a Prairie View A&M, Texas Southern or some SWAC team to accept a buy game, or is Idaho State merely that cash strapped?

Then again, do you guys consider it an Idaho State problem, or a BSC problem overall. It seems the Montana schools have the resources to bring in other teams, or travel to other schools (if needed). How much does the BSC stretch itself for it's conference members, or do you guys think the conference will contract at some point? Serious question.....

Good questions.

I don't know how much the conference has to do with it, but as mentioned earlier, we are seeing a ton more interconference play with the Valley and the SLC which is a great deal for everyone.

Yes, it's a problem for most teams in the conference with the Montana's being least affected because of their large gate and ability to pay. ISU and PSU seem to be at the bottom of the pile with schedule struggles.

[Sycamore62]

Good questions.

I don't know how much the conference has to do with it, but as mentioned earlier, we are seeing a ton more interconference play with the Valley and the SLC which is a great deal for everyone.

Yes, it's a problem for most teams in the conference with the Montana's being least affected because of their large gate and ability to pay. ISU and PSU seem to be at the bottom of the pile with schedule struggles.

any idea in a BSC season, how many flights are needed for conference play?

its too bad not one poster anywhere has any idea how much a road trip costs to drive or fly and how much more a greater distance is.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

any idea in a BSC season, how many flights are needed for conference play?

its too bad not one poster anywhere has any idea how much a road trip costs to drive or fly and how much more a greater distance is.

Right now I think it's about 150K to charter and then probably fuel cost is the difference unless it got into needing another crew or something.

Your normal bus trip is probably gonna be around 4K for a team.

Montana as an example can only bus to two games each year I think unless we have Idaho State then it would be three.

[tomq04]

The real answer is that they should have played and BEATEN the vandals, $$ game and a (lol) FBS win.

[Sycamore62]

Right now I think it's about 150K to charter and then probably fuel cost is the difference unless it got into needing another crew or something.

Your normal bus trip is probably gonna be around 4K for a team.

Montana as an example can only bus to two games each year I think unless we have Idaho State then it would be three.

Ya I guess the only $ that matters is flight vs bus because you are going to have all the other expenses.

So, i'm wondering if 1 or 2 more conference games would ease any of the expenses. I think ISUb and maybe 1 or 2 other schools only agreed to take the first 2 dakota teams if they never had to go 2 times in a season. Im not sure what the deal was when they added USD. We might be the reason they didnt do a full 9 game schedule

[Grizzlies82]

Gentlemen, by no means did I infer that I knew what ISUo's options were, and honestly I guess I simply didn't realize how FEW schools there are out West for BSC teams to play. Whether the committee takes it under consideration, who knows.

Then again, do you guys consider it an Idaho State problem, or a BSC problem overall. It seems the Montana schools have the resources to bring in other teams, or travel to other schools (if needed). How much does the BSC stretch itself for it's conference members, or do you guys think the conference will contract at some point? Serious question.....

RealBird, Everyone out here views it as a problem. As others pointed out the distances are vast. Montana buses to MSU (200 miles east) and E. WA (200 miles west). Those are the 'close' conference opponents. The Dakota schools are probably the nearest out of conference options and each is about 1,000 miles to the east. So the OOC options for FCS are all rather expensive propositions.

Even the Montana schools are NOT rolling in cash. They just have the advantage of selling 25,000 (U of M) and 19,000 (MSU) seats for a home game. Thus they can afford to pay an FCS some money to come out for a game rather than relying only on scheduling the western DII's who will come play for $30 to $50,000. However, they can't pay enough to compete with the FBS type paychecks. So the Montana schools have the dilemma of trying find another program willing to fly out west to play a competitive opponent for a comparatively small compensation (compared to what Iowa, Auburn or Georgia would pay).

As a result almost every Big Sky team is playing another (or two) as a non-conference game. Then when you consider Idaho State or Portland State they are only selling a few thousand (ISU), or under 1,000 (PSU) seats. Hell these guys are in the hole just trying to pay the DII's to come play. As you might imagine, nor do they have the funds to schedule a home/home series in PA or So Carolina when they'd lose vast money on both ends (flying there & no gate receipt at home). Again, I'm not attempting to defend Idaho State's predicament. This is just an attempt to paint you a clearer picture of the problems out west. It is what it is, and each school tries to deal with it the best they can.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Right now I think it's about 150K to charter and then probably fuel cost is the difference unless it got into needing another crew or something.

Your normal bus trip is probably gonna be around 4K for a team.

Montana as an example can only bus to two games each year I think unless we have Idaho State then it would be three.

At Montana State the threshold is 400 miles for using a bus. Coach Ash's wife hates the fact that EWU just makes the cut as a bus trip....

[JSUBison]

Gentlemen, by no means did I infer that I knew what ISUo's options were, and honestly I guess I simply didn't realize how FEW schools there are out West for BSC teams to play. Whether the committee takes it under consideration, who knows.

My next question is did the BSC conference member schools think it would be a good idea to add 4 schools knowing it limited their scheduling options OOC to Univ. of San Diego? Also, it would seem that the BSC would try to partner with another conference for more Home/Home, 2 for 1 schedules with maybe the MVFC, or Southland to ensure schools like Idaho State can get some non-conf games against quality opponents? Dare I say, if Mississippi Valley State can travel from the Delta of Mississippi to the middle of Illinois to play Illinois State. Would it be possible to get a Prairie View A&M, Texas Southern or some SWAC team to accept a buy game, or is Idaho State merely that cash strapped?

Then again, do you guys consider it an Idaho State problem, or a BSC problem overall. It seems the Montana schools have the resources to bring in other teams, or travel to other schools (if needed). How much does the BSC stretch itself for it's conference members, or do you guys think the conference will contract at some point? Serious question.....

My opinion is it's an ISU problem. Everybody acting like ISU-O is the only team that's every had problems filling out a schedule. UND made it work, they had Stony Brook and Robert Morris for OOC. Two east coast teams. Why can't ISU work something with a Midwest/south team? SUU and Poly played SDSU. Weber played SFA. NDSU played AT Weber State, in the first part of a home/home. NDSU has had home/homes with SWAC's for crying out loud, can't tell me there are no options for Idaho State other than DII's. If it's that bad $$-wise, and FCS OOC is off the table and they HAVE to have an OOC of FBS/DII's, then I don't know what to say other than they made their bed. As long as Idaho State is straight forward and doesn't try any shenanigans, I think the options are out there. like others said, they didn't know that they would be decent this year. Being $ driven in the OOC schedule really screwed them. Every other year previous it doesn't make a bit of difference because they were awful.

[Ginsbach]

I'm an alumnus of both North Dakota State and Idaho State, so I have some first hand experience with how program perceptions and success can impact scheduling issues for both winning and non-winning teams.

Holt Arena was empty when I was there no matter what the game and the quality of the opponents didn't have much to do with how many people were there. In Kramer's first years, there was a pretty significant apathy among the student body regarding the football games and add in the large number of non-traditional students at ISU (older students and those who either take classes at the Idaho Falls campus or take the bus from IF to Poky) and student participation and interest was low. Community interest was also low due to low expectations and there wasn't much buzz in the greater Poky area about the football team. I'm guessing the AD tried to get FCS schools to play there but the cost was too high where it wouldn't turn a profit with projected attendance.

For the FBS games, though, it's definitely distance. Pocatello to SLC is 150 miles. Pocatello to Logan is 80 miles. The FBS money guarantee games were a no-brainer in a scheduling situation like this year. Short trips to get a paycheck. It would have been great to get an OOC FCS team or two in instead of the two DII home games, but hopefully the AD learns from this.

[Walkon79]

That's right. Someone smacked that earlier in thread which is stupid. We can't play them in conference every year, so the two schools have made a deal to play OOC in season's when we're not scheduled. Very smart and a solid FCS game to boost the OOC.

Besides EWU being I rival, and close enough to make the drive.


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[Walkon79]

Gentlemen, by no means did I infer that I knew what ISUo's options were, and honestly I guess I simply didn't realize how FEW schools there are out West for BSC teams to play. Whether the committee takes it under consideration, who knows.

My next question is did the BSC conference member schools think it would be a good idea to add 4 schools knowing it limited their scheduling options OOC to Univ. of San Diego? Also, it would seem that the BSC would try to partner with another conference for more Home/Home, 2 for 1 schedules with maybe the MVFC, or Southland to ensure schools like Idaho State can get some non-conf games against quality opponents? Dare I say, if Mississippi Valley State can travel from the Delta of Mississippi to the middle of Illinois to play Illinois State. Would it be possible to get a Prairie View A&M, Texas Southern or some SWAC team to accept a buy game, or is Idaho State merely that cash strapped?

Then again, do you guys consider it an Idaho State problem, or a BSC problem overall. It seems the Montana schools have the resources to bring in other teams, or travel to other schools (if needed). How much does the BSC stretch itself for it's conference members, or do you guys think the conference will contract at some point? Serious question.....

Contraction is a definite possibility, there are maybe 7 programs with a balanced budget in the Sky.


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[Walkon79]

Right now I think it's about 150K to charter and then probably fuel cost is the difference unless it got into needing another crew or something.

Your normal bus trip is probably gonna be around 4K for a team.

Montana as an example can only bus to two games each year I think unless we have Idaho State then it would be three.

The Cats would bus to Missoula, Cheney, Ogden, Pocatello, and maybe Greeley in the years we played them away. That's meant only one bus trip this year, with 4 charter flights.


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[Irwin M. Fletcher]

For a thread about who gets into the playoffs, the discussion seems heavy on scheduling and light on performance. ISUo's two DII wins should cut against strength of schedule, but ultimately the committee must make its decision based on who it believes is the playing the best ball. If MSU crushes Montana, ISU deserves a look.

[Grizzlies82]

For a thread about who gets into the playoffs, the discussion seems heavy on scheduling and light on performance. ISUo's two DII wins should cut against strength of schedule, but ultimately the committee must make its decision based on who it believes is the playing the best ball. If MSU crushes Montana, ISU deserves a look.

MSU "crushing" Montana this weekend would help Idaho State.
Unfortunately for ISU, first I think that is HIGHLY unlikely outcome. Second, I believe the two DII wins, and their number of losses, leaves Idaho St out regardless.