The Patriot League's Inconvenient Truth

[DFW HOYA]

After one of the most deflating losses in a decade, it is even more apparent the PL has a problem: one of its seven teams can no longer expect to win in this league. Oh, they can compete, however you define it, maybe they can steal a game against Davidson or Brown, for but once this is a 60-scholarship league, one of its teams can pencil in 0-6 on day one.

Georgetown is getting manhandled in skill positions against scholarship opponents. Maybe it's the scholarship, maybe it's Georgetown's inabilty to get skill players sitting at the top of the PL Index, or maybe it's the fact that four of its top recruits were signed away by other schools after National Signing Day, but this team is hard pressed to beat any PL team right now--not because of effort or drive, but on talent.

Even more concerning, the Georgetown fan base has checked out on this season. There were more people at the tailgate than went to the game itself because, in part, they know how the story ends. It may be difficult for some of you who associate Georgetown with Columbia or VMI in futility, but prior to 2000 this school had never posted more than three consecutive losing seasons in a history that dates to 1881. Never.

Since 2000, 14 losing seasons in 15 years, and now 0-3 in the league for 2014 with Lehigh and Fordham in range. Such are not the numbers to sell when Georgetown has to renew its PL membership soon.

[Engineer86]

I must be missing something, but you still have Lehigh left to play and you think 0-6 is a lock? Not so fast my friend. You lost today to the second best team in the league.

I do understand your point though in the long run. There is a problem with the fit.

[Vooter]

Offer scholarships.

[Lehigh'98]

You will beat Lehigh this year and possibly next. After that you're SOL

[FargoBison]

Offer scholarships.

Or join the Pioneer

[UNH Fanboi]

It is sad what has become of Georgetown football. I know a former player from the late 90s and it used to be a proud program even if they were never world beaters. There's no reason for their current situation other than institutional neglect.

[Franks Tanks]

Most of the rest of the league stinks as well.

[Sader87]

Ironically this may be one of GTown's bettah teams in the PL era...nice win ovah Brown, played Lafayette and Bucknell tough.

A decision has to be made though, you're right that it will only get worse from here.

[Pard4Life]

Seriously Hoya, you guys beat yourselves in Easton two weeks ago and you looked flat out better than the Pards.

[RichH2]

A situation that can only worsen. That truth is Hoyas'. A choice had to be made fully aware of the result. Believe we all wish it were different but that doesn't look likely.

[bonarae]

Unfortunately, the only way out is dropping the program. xrolleyesx

[DFW HOYA]

Unfortunately, the only way out is dropping the program. xrolleyesx

This assumes 60 scholarrship football is the only option for the program which it isn't... and never has been. In its golden days it was running as a 20 scholarship program against full programs and still doing quite well.

[Go Green]

Even more concerning, the Georgetown fan base has checked out on this season. There were more people at the tailgate than went to the game itself because, in part, they know how the story ends.


The 11,000 at the Columbia game came to their seats at kickoff yesterday. Wien Stadium was nearly full. Of course they lost (they know how the story ends, too), but they at least gave it the old college try...

[Sader87]

This assumes 60 scholarrship football is the only option for the program which it isn't... and never has been. In its golden days it was running as a 20 scholarship program against full programs and still doing quite well.

The thing is, unless GTown doesn't mind being out-gunned by HYP in the Ivies or the PL, their only other option is to join the Pioneer league in football.

Has GTown really ​had "golden years" since becoming 1-AA/FCS in the 90s??? They may have been winning but it was really 1-AA/FCS football in name only.

It is what it is....the PL had to go 60 schollies to be competitive with other FCS schools...I know that's not the league GTown joined but that's what it is now.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The 11,000 at the Columbia game came to their seats at kickoff yesterday. Wien Stadium was nearly full. Of course they lost (they know how the story ends, too), but they at least gave it the old college try...

I work in the Bronx/Inwood/Washington Heights and actually decided to go to that game yesterday. Very impressive turnout considering a team that will very likely go winless and AT BEST finishes 1-9. Very obvious that there is a large continent of alumni who go to the Homecoming game and that's it, having probably no clue how good or bad Columbia is within the Ivy League (Ignorance is bliss). I overheard the couple in front of me on the line ask the ticket agent, "Are their discounts for alumni?" I immediately had two thoughts:

1) Who else BESIDES alumni would pay to go watch the Columbia football team?
2) What is your profession coming out of Columbia that you can't happily afford a $15 ticket once a year to support your school?

I guess, I'm the answer to number 1. Also FWIW, it seemed like the majority of the 11K there stayed for the entire game. The Lions played very hard just KILLED themselves with stupid mistakes. Obviously not a D-I/Ivy caliber coaching staff.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The thing is, unless GTown doesn't mind being out-gunned by HYP in the Ivies or the PL, their only other option is to join the Pioneer league in football.

Has GTown really ​had "golden years" since becoming 1-AA/FCS in the 90s??? They may have been winning but it was really 1-AA/FCS football in name only.


It was a very big leap from the MAAC to the PL for Georgetown as we've seen since they've joined us. The next leap is probably not quite as large but given that they haven't caught up to where the rest of us were in the first place, the Hoyas either have a long road ahead or need to make a program-altering decision.

1) Dropping football should NOT be an option. Too much history, would hate to see another BU/Northeastern/Hofstra story in the Northeast
2) Staying in the PL without upgrading to at least 45-50 scholarships will be a death knell for any winning aspirations.
3) I like having them in the Patriot League (despite their ownage of Holy Cross since I graduated) but think they would actually be well suited and could thrive in the Pioneer League. This ultimately may become the path of least resistance.

[bonarae]

I work in the Bronx/Inwood/Washington Heights and actually decided to go to that game yesterday. Very impressive turnout considering a team that will very likely go winless and AT BEST finishes 1-9. Very obvious that there is a large continent of alumni who go to the Homecoming game and that's it, having probably no clue how good or bad Columbia is within the Ivy League (Ignorance is bliss). I overheard the couple in front of me on the line ask the ticket agent, "Are their discounts for alumni?" I immediately had two thoughts:

1) Who else BESIDES alumni would pay to go watch the Columbia football team?
2) What is your profession coming out of Columbia that you can't happily afford a $15 ticket once a year to support your school?

I guess, I'm the answer to number 1. Also FWIW, it seemed like the majority of the 11K there stayed for the entire game. The Lions played very hard just KILLED themselves with stupid mistakes. Obviously not a D-I/Ivy caliber coaching staff.

Hmm, have you seen a large contingent of D-III supporters in a similar fashion? Or maybe within the FCS, fans of scholly teams?


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[NY Crusader 2010]

Hmm, have you seen a large contingent of D-III supporters in a similar fashion? Or maybe within the FCS, fans of scholly teams?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Nope but it also appears Columbia combined Homecoming with Family Weekend so they effectively put all their eggs in one basket. At least they didn't schedule Family Weekend for a non-football weekend like a certain New England school *cough Holy Cross cough*

[heath]

See if Georgetown and Hopkins can swap football Leagues. One is really good and wants to move up, and the other doesn't care and belongs in D3. With that being said, Georgetown still gives Lehigh a game and could win.

[Pard4Life]

I've never heard that Hopkins wants to move up. In fact, they are against doing so, or so I've read on here.

[NY Crusader 2010]

See if Georgetown and Hopkins can swap football Leagues. One is really good and wants to move up, and the other doesn't care and belongs in D3. With that being said, Georgetown still gives Lehigh a game and could win.

I've actually mentioned Johns Hopkins as a school that could be a candidate for full PL membership should they decide to become a full Division I athletic program. DIII to FCS is still a big leap though.

And Lehigh isn't the only potential win left for the Hoyas. They finish with Holy Cross at home, whom they've beaten 3 of the past 4 years. There is nothing on the Crusaders resume that should indicate Georgetown should count themselves out of that one.

[heath]

I've actually mentioned Johns Hopkins as a school that could be a candidate for full PL membership should they decide to become a full Division I athletic program. DIII to FCS is still a big leap though.
Yes but with schollies they would be really good in 2-3 years, and in 5-8 years be great

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I've actually mentioned Johns Hopkins as a school that could be a candidate for full PL membership should they decide to become a full Division I athletic program. DIII to FCS is still a big leap though.

And Lehigh isn't the only potential win left for the Hoyas. They finish with Holy Cross at home, whom they've beaten 3 of the past 4 years. There is nothing on the Crusaders resume that should indicate Georgetown should count themselves out of that one.

Under the current rules it would involve five years in DII. Hopkins lax is in the B1G, so they probably can live with DIII everything else.

[Go Green]

See if Georgetown and Hopkins can swap football Leagues. One is really good and wants to move up, and the other doesn't care and belongs in D3. With that being said, Georgetown still gives Lehigh a game and could win.

The Dayton Rule would prevent Georgetown from playing DIII football. Indeed, that's why they are in I-AA/FCS in the first place.

[Go...gate]

The Dayton Rule would prevent Georgetown from playing DIII football. Indeed, that's why they are in I-AA/FCS in the first place.

Blast the Dayton Rule. Everything else in the NCAA is evolving. It is time that rule was thrown out the window.

[dgtw]

If I ran a league and someone wasn't offering scholarships and everyone else did, I'd tell them to get out.

[FargoBison]

If it came to it would G-Town go to the Pioneer or would they just drop football?

[Go...gate]

If it came to it would G-Town go to the Pioneer or would they just drop football?

DFW HOYA, what say you? I hope you guys stay, but what if the point if no return is reached?

[DFW HOYA]

A little known fact about the Pioneer which makes it a bad fit for Georgetown--merit aid.

While PFL schools cannot offer scholarships based on "athletic ability", they all offer merit grants as a part of admission. Georgetown offers no merit aid whatsoever. If you think Georgetown can't get talent with what equivalencies it has now, see what happens when there are none.

Thankfully, the PFL is not a serious option.

[Pard4Life]

A little known fact about the Pioneer which makes it a bad fit for Georgetown--merit aid.

While PFL schools cannot offer scholarships based on "athletic ability", they all offer merit grants as a part of admission. Georgetown offers no merit aid whatsoever. If you think Georgetown can't get talent with what equivalencies it has now, see what happens when there are none.

Thankfully, the PFL is not a serious option.

So, if Joey has a 2400 SAT and 4.0 GPA from rural Alabama, no scholarship opportunities at Gtown? Seriously?

[DFW HOYA]

So, if Joey has a 2400 SAT and 4.0 GPA from rural Alabama, no scholarship opportunities at Gtown? Seriously?

No merit aid offered. 100% on need.

Georgetown would sooner drop basketball than end 100% need-based aid.

[Sader87]

I still say a lot of it comes down to "not having a football culture" at the school.....GTown had generations and generations of not having football being a central part of its school social culture (1950-2000)....hard to get that started when it nevah existed....Fordham is having the same problem even though they are winning now.

Playing in a "big city" doesn't help mattahs either.....football is really not a "city game" (in the Northeast anyway)

[RichH2]

No merit aid offered. 100% on need.

Georgetown would sooner drop basketball than end 100% need-based aid.
The issue is how much need basd aid does GU allot? How many equivalencies? If that would add up to 60 schollies over 85 players,Hoyas would do fine.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Man, another woe is me post from DFW that he somehow always turns into a long winded complaint about the stadium.

Seriously, DFW, if dropping the program isn't an option, and the PFL isn't an option, what is? The only other feasible alternative is being an independent and trying to fill the schedule with Ivies, a few PL schools and a few PFL schools. That's it. If that doesn't work, the program will either go or become cannon fodder in the PL and then go.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I don't see why the PFL wouldn't be an option. Even with absolute minimal effort from the school to support the program, I think they'd be at least competitive there. To stay competitive in the PL, the ante must be upped and fast. I really just want to see Georgetown football survive.

[FordhamFan]

I still say a lot of it comes down to "not having a football culture" at the school.....GTown had generations and generations of not having football being a central part of its school social culture (1950-2000)....hard to get that started when it nevah existed....Fordham is having the same problem even though they are winning now.

Playing in a "big city" doesn't help mattahs either.....football is really not a "city game" (in the Northeast anyway)

The culture thing is a real problem. Even when you do well like we are lucky enough to be doing in the Bronx, people raise an eyebrow if you're lucky. And that's Fordham, where basketball isn't even 1/100th of what it is at GTown. The plus side about Fordham is that administration is starting (slowly but surely) to care about the football program, because they're seeing what success can do for the school.

As sad as it is to say, without any administrative support, which by reading this thread seems to be the case at GTown, I just don't see the program surviving another 20 years.

[Bill]

I still say a lot of it comes down to "not having a football culture" at the school.....GTown had generations and generations of not having football being a central part of its school social culture (1950-2000)....hard to get that started when it nevah existed....F

Sader
I'm sure DFW can address this further, but I'm not sure the bolded statement is entirely accurate. As you know, they were playing football, just not DI football. People on this board may not agree, but just because the program wasn't D1 doesn't mean it was not part of the school culture. GTown was a relatively successful program at that level. I think their all-time record is still almost 100 games over .500...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I find it very hard to believe that the Hoyas could not spring for, say, 7 full scholarship, merit-aid football players a season, making a grand total of 28 such players, only marginally more than the merit-based scholarships for the basketball program. That may be enough to compete in the same way Bucknell is competing now with less than the full complement of 63 scholarships.

If you're a football player with career aspirations of being a congressman (not an NFL player), where are you going to go, Lehigh or Georgetown, if you have to pay some money? You still pick Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

College admins on Monday: "We hate football... and its culture!"

College admins on Friday: "Football homecoming week is a great way to open the wallets of alumni!"

This is why 11,000 people show up at Columbia, 10,000 people show up at Lehigh, and Georgetown will have a solid turnout this weekend. College admins largely want a football program so they can have a homecoming that involves a sport other than soccer or field hockey. Record really doesn't play into it much.

[Sader87]

Sader
I'm sure DFW can address this further, but I'm not sure the bolded statement is entirely accurate. As you know, they were playing football, just not DI football. People on this board may not agree, but just because the program wasn't D1 doesn't mean it was not part of the school culture. GTown was a relatively successful program at that level. I think their all-time record is still almost 100 games over .500...

The thing is, GTown played no football in the 1950s after the year 1950, played "club football" for most of the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and D3 football in the 80s and 90s. The MAAC was essentially glorified D3 football in the 90s as well.

Point being, GTown alumni from roughly aged 35 (Class of 2001) to age 75 (Class of 1961) have no memory of a legitimate D1 football program playing either at GTown or on the road. It simply wasn't a very big part of the student culture then....no big Homecoming game, no road-trip to see GTown play Maryland or BC etc etc

It's difficult enough for schools who had this in that era, like a Holy Cross, to draw crowds (in the Northeast anyway) in 2014....never mind not having that alumni-base/local fan-base to draw from like a GTown or a Fordham.

If Holy Cross were to drop football (and it's been proposed ovah the years) it would and has been met with howls and gnashing of teeth from alumni.

If GTown were to drop or talk about dropping football, I think it would mostly be met with a shrug of the shoulders from most Hoya alumni.

[Pard4Life]

If Georgetown were to become very good quickly, you might see significant interest. It all comes down to winning. For example, if Georgetown went ACC and had a 35,000 seat stadium, it would not matter if the Hoyas had no tradition between 1950-2001.

Then on the other hand, you have Duke football, which has been around awhile and might as well have not existed from 1964-2008, still struggle to attract fans despite being a Top 25 program for the second year in a row.

[Go Green]

If Holy Cross were to drop football (and it's been proposed ovah the years)

That's news to me.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This is a Georgetown problem, not a Patriot league problem.

Conferences have bottom teams all the time.

[Sader87]

That's news to me.

HC football was very much on its death-bed in the late 1960s/early 1970s.....tough era for football....had been shaky evah since Dr Anderson stepped down in 1964, hepatitis outbreak ended the 1969 season after 2 games, the school went co-ed in 1972 etc etc etc....there was a lot of talk about dropping it then....ultimately alumni support and probably the annual BC game saved it then for the most part.

[Pard4Life]

HC football was very much on its death-bed in the late 1960s/early 1970s.....tough era for football....had been shaky evah since Dr Anderson stepped down in 1964, hepatitis outbreak ended the 1969 season after 2 games, the school went co-ed in 1972 etc etc etc....there was a lot of talk about dropping it then....ultimately alumni support and probably the annual BC game saved it then for the most part.

And just think, 10 years later, HC was a dynamo.

[Pard4Life]

The Patriot League essentially gutted the Lafayette athletics department. So many teams went into the toilet around the same time that it is hard not to conclude the link is causal. Holy Cross seems to be in a similar circumstance.... I don't know what happened with the rest of their teams, but men's basketball was awful until the late 90s (scholarships) and football took a dive in 1991.

[Sader87]

We coulda been in the Big East ya' know....lol

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We couldah been in the Big East ya' know....lol

FIFY

[Pard4Life]

We coulda been in the Big East ya' know....lol

Lol... I set that up perfectly eh? You should just make that slogan your "team" in the info box below your avatar.

[Pards Rule]

The Patriot League essentially gutted the Lafayette athletics department. So many teams went into the toilet around the same time that it is hard not to conclude the link is causal. Holy Cross seems to be in a similar circumstance.... I don't know what happened with the rest of their teams, but men's basketball was awful until the late 90s (scholarships) and football took a dive in 1991.

After 1991. I was at the game in Worcester that year and we were killed, 48-14 or something. They were still cycling out there athletic schollies still I recall. It might have been the final class - seniors...

[PAllen]

After one of the most deflating losses in a decade, it is even more apparent the PL has a problem: one of its seven teams can no longer expect to win in this league. Oh, they can compete, however you define it, maybe they can steal a game against Davidson or Brown, for but once this is a 60-scholarship league, one of its teams can pencil in 0-6 on day one.

Georgetown is getting manhandled in skill positions against scholarship opponents. Maybe it's the scholarship, maybe it's Georgetown's inabilty to get skill players sitting at the top of the PL Index, or maybe it's the fact that four of its top recruits were signed away by other schools after National Signing Day, but this team is hard pressed to beat any PL team right now--not because of effort or drive, but on talent.

Even more concerning, the Georgetown fan base has checked out on this season. There were more people at the tailgate than went to the game itself because, in part, they know how the story ends. It may be difficult for some of you who associate Georgetown with Columbia or VMI in futility, but prior to 2000 this school had never posted more than three consecutive losing seasons in a history that dates to 1881. Never.

Since 2000, 14 losing seasons in 15 years, and now 0-3 in the league for 2014 with Lehigh and Fordham in range. Such are not the numbers to sell when Georgetown has to renew its PL membership soon.

What the rest of the PL does has zero effect on Georgtown's inability to compete with Dayton. You want to compete for talent? Build a stadium. You want to keep guys committed after signing day? Offer them a scholarship. Blaming the AI for not allowing you to bring in the Allen Iverson's of the football world is pathetic. You joined the Patriot League for a better chance to play the Ivies who you see as your peers. Next time you travel to Harvard or Yale or Penn, or even Columbia for that matter, imagine doing that as a recruit a week before or after your visit to Georgetown. Do you honestly think that you are going to win that recruiting battle without spending more on football? This isn't about other PL teams giving scholarships. In fact, if anything, the ability to give a few here and there to keep key recruits helps Georgetown. Georgetown's record in the PL has been abysmal because you took a step up in competition without stepping up your commitment to support the program. If you insist on following Davidson's model, then you have no one to blame but yourselves for fitting in as well as they did.

[PAllen]

The 11,000 at the Columbia game came to their seats at kickoff yesterday. Wien Stadium was nearly full. Of course they lost (they know how the story ends, too), but they at least gave it the old college try...

And if 11K showed up at the MSF for a game, many would have no choice but to go back to tailgating.

[Bill]

The thing is, GTown played no football in the 1950s after the year 1950, played "club football" for most of the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s and D3 football in the 80s and 90s. T

Sader - not trying to stir anything up...but that's not really accurate. Gtown was club from 65-69...then DII & DIII from 1970 until forced into into its current situation. While it wasn't D1, they have had an actual competitive football team at D3 & above since 1970 - that is 40+ straight years.

[Go Green]

The Patriot League essentially gutted the Lafayette athletics department. So many teams went into the toilet around the same time that it is hard not to conclude the link is causal. Holy Cross seems to be in a similar circumstance.... I don't know what happened with the rest of their teams, but men's basketball was awful until the late 90s (scholarships) and football took a dive in 1991.

I think you meant 1992.

Holy Cross went undefeated in 1991, and ended up ranked #2 in I-AA. It was Duffner's last year.

[Pards Rule]

I think you meant 1992.

Holy Cross went undefeated in 1991, and ended up ranked #2 in I-AA. It was Duffner's last year.


Yes see my earlier post here on that as I was at a 1991 game in Worcester and it was a brutal beatdown. Where did Duffner go? Where is he now?

[Sader87]

Yes see my earlier post here on that as I was at a 1991 game in Worcester and it was a brutal beatdown. Where did Duffner go? Where is he now?

Maryland head coach...then to NFL, currently LB coach with the Dolphins

[Pard4Life]

I think you meant 1992.

Holy Cross went undefeated in 1991, and ended up ranked #2 in I-AA. It was Duffner's last year.

Yes, couldn't recall the exact date. Wasn't HC winless by 1994 or 1995?

[Pards Rule]

Yes, couldn't recall the exact date. Wasn't HC winless by 1994 or 1995?


Not sure but I recall it was a precipitous decline after they cycled out the schollies. I think Mark Duffner knew what was in the offing and departed stage south to Maryland and now South Florida!!

[Sader87]

Sader - not trying to stir anything up...but that's not really accurate. Gtown was club from 65-69...then DII & DIII from 1970 until forced into into its current situation. While it wasn't D1, they have had an actual competitive football team at D3 & above since 1970 - that is 40+ straight years.

While technically true, GTown was playing against "club teams" into the late 1970s. They weren't very good at the D3 level in the 1980s and 1990s....losing to teams like Swarthmore etc.

I have cousins that went to GTown in the 1970s....about the only thing they remember about GTown football then is that they knew they played football on a roof of a building. It just wasn't a very big part of the under-graduate life then.

I'm not saying a school has to have a long, storied gridiron history to succeed but if it doesn't and then you don't support it much in 2014....the results are obvious.

[Sader87]

Yes, couldn't recall the exact date. Wasn't HC winless by 1994 or 1995?

OK...now you guys are just busting my balls....xdrunkyx

This was supposed to be a quiet, bye week for Sader Nation.

[Go Green]

Not sure but I recall it was a precipitous decline after they cycled out the schollies. I think Mark Duffner knew what was in the offing and departed stage south to Maryland and now South Florida!!

In the scholarship era, Holy Cross won something like 25 straight games against Ivy opponents, usually by several touchdowns.

After 1992, the Ivy got revenge. Dartmouth won 48-0 in 1992. Princeton won 38-0 in 1993. Penn won 59-8 in 1994. And other teams won by smaller margins.

[Sader87]

I love how the Ivies didn't mind playing a full scholarship HC team in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.....we weren't exactly running it up on you then.

The timing in the 80s was fortuitous for HC beatdowns on the Ivies in that HC actually got a bit bettah going 1-AA (big fish in a little pond rather than vice versa) whilst the Ivies basically dropped a bit in talent going 1-AA in 1982.

[The Boogie Down]

While technically true, GTown was playing against "club teams" into the late 1970s. They weren't very good at the D3 level in the 1980s and 1990s....losing to teams like Swarthmore etc.

I have cousins that went to GTown in the 1970s....about the only thing they remember about GTown football then is that they knew they played football on a roof of a building. It just wasn't a very big part of the under-graduate life then.

I'm not saying a school has to have a long, storied gridiron history to succeed but if it doesn't and then you don't support it much in 2014....the results are obvious.

Agreed with this as well as the earlier comment about college football struggling on most urban corners of the Northeast. Also, as others have said, none of our schools have to compete with a basketball program as big as Georgetown's. Certainly not Fordham! But, we do have more of that "storied gridiron history" to fall back on. And despite our own decades in club and D-III, there is a slight but noticeable difference between taking a 35 year hiatus from major football and the 51 year one Georgetown took.

I remember often seeing members of the "Greatest Generation" at our games 20 years ago. They were senior citizens who even as kids knew all about Fordham football. They read about it in the tabloids, or listened on the radio, or even showed up in person to watch us play at a sold-out Polo Grounds against teams like Alabama, Purdue and St. Mary's. Later on as undergrads they witnessed our teams make back-to-back trips to the Cotton and Sugar Bowls. After the war, and as late as 1954, there was still enough local interest in Fordham football for them to conceivably take their own "Baby Boomer" kids to a game or two at the Polo Grounds. Well, assuming white-flight didn't already drive them too deep into the suburbs! But 35 years later and for a good chunk of the 1990s, at least a few of them came back on campus. Not enough to make any difference in attendance at dinky Jack Coffey Field, but enough to offer a tangible link to the past.

As late as 2002 one of the Seven Blocks of Granite, Al Babartsky, came back to watch our spring game. Thankfully, he survived long enough to witness our playoffs run that same year. That's the type of little connection which those extra 16 years away has cost Georgetown. Granted, if the Hoyas joined the ACC tomorrow none of that would matter! But at this level a link that goes beyond the history section of media guides or football websites helps.

[Ramblin' Man]

The Patriot League essentially gutted the Lafayette athletics department. So many teams went into the toilet around the same time that it is hard not to conclude the link is causal. Holy Cross seems to be in a similar circumstance.... I don't know what happened with the rest of their teams, but men's basketball was awful until the late 90s (scholarships) and football took a dive in 1991.

Joining the Patriot League in 1989 had the same effect on Fordham athletics. We had planned to join the PL in 1990 as a result of the Dayton Rule, but we were asked to join a year early because of Davidson's departure from the league. We were not ready, and our football team became a PL doormat for a decade, after having been successful in the DIII MAAC. Other sports, especially men's basketball and baseball, were devastated after our scholarship players cycled out. The Fordham administration eventually realized its mistake, swallowed hard, resigned its full membership in the Patriot League, and joined the A10 in 1995. We remained in the PL as an associate member only for football.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I think you meant 1992.

Holy Cross went undefeated in 1991, and ended up ranked #2 in I-AA. It was Duffner's last year.

Beat Lehigh in a ridiculous game! The PL would have received two bids that year imo! That was the best LU team from the early 80's until '98....

[Sader87]

1991 HC 43 Lehigh 42 F Halftime score: 7-7.

The '91 HC team was very good but it wasn't as good or as dominant as a few of the teams leading up to that one in 1991. As others have mentioned, only the Srs were still scholarship so they weren't as deep or as overall talented as the '82, '83, '84, '86, '87-'90 teams.

That team didn't play any 1-A/FBS teams and it squeeked out a couple other games beside the Lehigh one to go 11-0.

[Pard4Life]

Isn't great that on a tread regarding the "Inconvenient PL truth" we start talking about the past? xlolx

The 1988 Leopards do not get discussed much around here.. beat those Saders and had the top offense in FCS that year.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

Isn't great that on a tread regarding the "Inconvenient PL truth" we start talking about the past? xlolx

The 1988 Leopards do not get discussed much around here.. beat those Saders and had the top offense in FCS that year.

You might not believe this but I have brought up the '88 team a few times, even recently. Ask Go 'Gate....:)

[Franks Tanks]

The 88 Pards were probably the best team of the Russo era. Frank Baur and Tommy Costello on offense. The D gave up some points, but the offense was dominant. We lost to Army that year by 7, but in true Lafayette fashion also managed to lose to Cornell!

[Sader87]

The 88 Pards were probably the best team of the Russo era. Frank Baur and Tommy Costello on offense. The D gave up some points, but the offense was dominant. We lost to Army that year by 7, but in true Lafayette fashion also managed to lose to Cornell!

According to CFB database, you tied Cornell but lost to Penn in '88.....that '88 loss to Lafayette was HC's only PL loss from 1986-1991.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just to put this thread back on topic, I'm pretty sure Al Gore has an honorary degree from Lafayette.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I am just relieved the Ivy League hijack of this thread has been averted.

[bonarae]

If it came to it would G-Town go to the Pioneer or would they just drop football?

Drop football. That's my quite realistic opinion.

[Go...gate]

You might not believe this but I have brought up the '88 team a few times, even recently. Ask Go 'Gate....:)

Indeed, Go Lehigh TU owl has given '88 Lafayette quite a few kudos. That was a hell of a fine ballclub.

[PAllen]

Just to put this thread back on topic, I'm pretty sure Al Gore has an honorary degree from Lafayette.

I see Lafayette's Al Gore and raise with Lehigh's Dan Quayle.

[Pards Rule]

According to CFB database, you tied Cornell but lost to Penn in '88.....that '88 loss to Lafayette was HC's only PL loss from 1986-1991.


Sader, link to that database please....I'm looking for one. Penn always (until recently) was a thorn in our side. That 88 team was very good. And came after a 4-7 1987 team.

[Engineer86]

Sader, link to that database please....I'm looking for one. Penn always (until recently) was a thorn in our side. That 88 team was very good. And came after a 4-7 1987 team.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/index.php

[Model Citizen]

Pros of Georgetown Joining the PFL

1. Hoyas would be more competitive in their league, provided the PFL follows through on plans to change aid rules (i.e. allows packaged aid similar to what GU already offers). PFL offers an auto playoff bid.

2. Ability to schedule Ivies probably unaffected...possibly enhanced.

3. Would continue to play chosen non-league opponents (as league rivals). Examples: Marist, played 8 of the last 9 years; Davidson, played 4 of the last 5 years.

4. Would play a Big East school, Butler.

5. Schedule would provide national recruiting exposure, consistent with Georgetown's geographically diverse admissions: http://uadmissions.georgetown.edu/firstyear/studentprofile#Geographic Representation

6. No academic index.


Cons of Georgetown Joining the PFL

1. Somewhat more competitive in its league-- but overall talent level would decline if forced to drop packaged aid, because the PFL did not follow through on plans for packaged aid.

2. Retaliation from the Patriot League? Don't expect Fordham to schedule you anymore.

3. Provincial alumni can't find Iowa on a U.S. map. For the Drake game, they fly to Omaha and hail a cab.

4. Increased travel costs. Valpo, Stetson, and Campbell pony up. Georgetown would have to do the same.

5. As the best non-scholarship option for keeping Georgetown football alive, PFL membership would deny smug satisfaction to a certain group of football fans.

[Sader87]

Very good post MC....

It's hard to argue that the PFL is not the best option for GTown moving forward if they are unwilling to give more support to its football program.

GTown football basically exists in the PL to rub shoulders with the Ivies....now that the Ivies are playing/scheduling more and more PFL schools, it only makes sense for them to jump ovah to the PFL imo.

[DFW HOYA]

Very good post MC....

It's hard to argue that the PFL is not the best option for GTown moving forward if they are unwilling to give more support to its football program.


Actually, it's easier to argue for the NEC or as an independent due to a) existing equivalencies and b) merit aid.

The former is an issue. Although it was once claimed on this board that Georgetown's equivalencies numbered 4.5, I think that number is low (and frankly, if it were, Rob Sgarlata should be Coach of The Year) and it's probably closer to 20 based on budget minus operating expenses. No school is going to drop 20 equivalencies to play Morehead State and Campbell.

The latter is also an issue: merit aid exists in the PFL outside of athletics. A quarterback can get accepted at Drake, for example, and get a $14,000 Presidential Scholarship or a National Merit Award. Georgetown would be the only school where it could not offer any merit awards as part of admission, including National Merit.

[Sader87]

DFW, I appoint you Prexy and AD of Gtown for the day....what would you (realistically) want for GTown football in terms of league affiliation, $$$ spent on equivalences, facility upgrades etc within reason???

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A quarterback can get accepted at Drake, for example, and get a $14,000 Presidential Scholarship or a National Merit Award. Georgetown would be the only school where it could not offer any merit awards as part of admission, including National Merit.

Why is this again?

[RichH2]

Actually, it's easier to argue for the NEC or as an independent due to a) existing equivalencies and b) merit aid.

The former is an issue. Although it was once claimed on this board that Georgetown's equivalencies numbered 4.5, I think that number is low (and frankly, if it were, Rob Sgarlata should be Coach of The Year) and it's probably closer to 20 based on budget minus operating expenses. No school is going to drop 20 equivalencies to play Morehead State and Campbell.

The latter is also an issue: merit aid exists in the PFL outside of athletics. A quarterback can get accepted at Drake, for example, and get a $14,000 Presidential Scholarship or a National Merit Award. Georgetown would be the only school where it could not offer any merit awards as part of admission, including National Merit.
A bit puzzled,not unusual for me :),but GU does not award academic schollies or it wont tell applicant whether he will get one?

[Model Citizen]

Based on the calculator below, $14k is a little high for most Drake recruits, but I see DFW's point.

http://www.drake.edu/admission/undergraduate/netpricecalculator/netprice-firstyear/

As I posted earlier, the ability to maintain packaged aid would be important for Georgetown. Since GU has a head start on the PFL in athletic aid, it would be possible for them to offset the others' advantages in academic aid.

[DFW HOYA]

A bit puzzled,not unusual for me,but GU does not award academic schollies or it wont tell applicant whether he will get one?

No academic (merit) scholarships are offered at Georgetown. In fact, here is the list of Division I schools that offer no merit aid whatsoever. See a pattern here?

Brown University
Colgate University
Columbia University
College of the Holy Cross
Dartmouth College
Georgetown University
Harvard University
Princeton University
Stanford University
University of Pennsylvania
Yale University

[Model Citizen]

I'm gonna guess that every one of those schools has better need-based aid than Drake. Should the Pioneer exclude schools like GU because they are less likely to leave a student with unmet need?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No academic (merit) scholarships are offered at Georgetown. In fact, here is the list of Division I schools that offer no merit aid whatsoever. See a pattern here?

Brown University
Colgate University
Columbia University
College of the Holy Cross
Dartmouth College
Georgetown University
Harvard University
Princeton University
Stanford University
University of Pennsylvania
Yale University

Throw H-Y-P out. They offer so much aid that, if you get past admissions and make less than $100,000 annually, your tuition is paid.

Throw Stanford out, which has 85 full athletic scholarships for its football team.

In fact, once Holy Cross started offering more athletic aid for its football players, Georgetown is the only one left that doesn't offer some significant institutional-based aid to scholarship either 1) its entire student body or 2) athletes specifically.

[RichH2]

Kind of amazed we are still beating this subject. The issue simply put is not merit aid vs need aid. Whatever the form,Hoyas offer too little financial aid to football players. IMO. if GU offers need aid equivalent to 40 or more schollies this conversation is moot.

[Doc QB]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;2168392]The former is an issue. Although it was once claimed on this board that Georgetown's equivalencies numbered 4.5, I think that number is low (and frankly, if it were, Rob Sgarlata should be Coach of The Year) and it's probably closer to 20 based on budget minus operating expenses. QUOTE]

Yeah, DFW, it was me and not a claim. Personal communication at a Johns Hopkins athletic golf outing from a former GU Hoya football player and administrator. Mike Mattia. He's still at Hop as assoc AD. At that time, 2010, they were operating on a near DIII financial aid model, with the aforementioned 5 "grants" for football. I thought, wow, five a year...but he smiled and said, "total." If you are the eyes and ears of Hoya-dom, call someone there and just ask, its not like its privileged information. If I am wrong, things changed, or Mike was yanking my chain (doubtful), so be it. If they have no desire to finish the stadium, give no other institution-wide merit based aid as you extoll throughout this thread, have no made no facility upgrades (offices, wt room, year round locker room,etc) what would leave you to believe otherwise anyway? Unfortunately, the committment just isnt there on many levels.

They are operating on a division three budget and aid model and it shows on the field. They will capture a few athletes due to the Gtown name and be more competitive than a DIII program, but not by much and the gap will widen further as the PL moves forward.

[Pard4Life]

Lafayette is the ultimate DINO, maybe along with HC: Division I in Name Only

[Sader87]

Lafayette is the ultimate DINO, maybe along with HC: Division I in Name Only

Before HC stahted giving football schollies I'd agree with this totally. We'll see how football plays out in the next 5 or so years.

HC's main/premier sport is men's basketball...it gets the most attention/resources (per capita) but we are in a league that is at best, a low to mid major at the D1 level.

HC, like some other PL schools, is trying to compete at some of the highest levels of inter-collegiate sports with a very small (in comparison) student body. I'm not crying "woe is us" completely as we, and other schools of our ilk, have both the resources (good endowment) and are the types of schools many kids aspire to go to. But it's tough for a school HC's size (just under 3,000) to field competitive D1 teams in football, basketball, ice hockey, lacrosse and baseball...as well as all the other Olympic sports both male and female.

[LehighU11]

Lafayette is the ultimate DINO, maybe along with HC: Division I in Name Only

Is that why LC still has Easton's own dinosaur, Frankasaurus, running the team?

[ngineer]

No academic (merit) scholarships are offered at Georgetown. In fact, here is the list of Division I schools that offer no merit aid whatsoever. See a pattern here?

Brown University
Colgate University
Columbia University
College of the Holy Cross
Dartmouth College
Georgetown University
Harvard University
Princeton University
Stanford University
University of Pennsylvania
Yale University

Not a true comparison imo. The Ivies--at least the top 3 or 4 give free rides to any one coming from a family where income is $150k or less--that covers probably 98% of all players recruited. So while it may be 'classified' as need-based, it is a full-ride for athletes, regardless. Not sure about Stanford's standards.

[ngineer]

What bothers me is the PL's stand that the schools cannot use need-based aid in addition to the merit scholarships. Each school gets 15/year, to be given out as full-rides or 'broken up'. If a student would qualify for a lot of need-based aid it counts against the 15 annual alllotment. Makes no sense to me. If a school has already committed to 15 scholarships in a given year, but has a good candidate that would qualify for a lot of aid, why shouldn't that be allowed?

[RichH2]

What bothers me is the PL's stand that the schools cannot use need-based aid in addition to the merit scholarships. Each school gets 15/year, to be given out as full-rides or 'broken up'. If a student would qualify for a lot of need-based aid it counts against the 15 annual alllotment. Makes no sense to me. If a school has already committed to 15 scholarships in a given year, but has a good candidate that would qualify for a lot of aid, why shouldn't that be allowed?

The annual capof 15 is over. No annual cap fromnow on. The 60 max ,which includes all aid merit or need, still here. Tne policy clearly for cost savings for some scholls,NEC has a 40 schollie max but can supplement that with merit aid up toNCAA limit. My hope is PL will adopt that model.

[ngineer]

Back to the theme of the thread and the Hoya's woes and what is to become of them, I was stunned to see the horrible turnout today at MSF. I was literally counting people in the home stands and there were no more than 250, and virtually all parents/relatives. The only students were the small pep band (about 15) and the cheerleaders (about 20). With MSF being "right there" for the students to roll out of bed and walk into the stadium I cannot understand not even a modest number of students showing support. It must be demoralizing for the players to come into their own stadium and see the visitors, from 250 miles away, have three times more people in the stands. We've been talking about money/scholarship/financial aid issues, but if the students don't give a ****, then I can better understand where the administration and/or board may be coming from. If the the attendance were such that there was no place to sit in the 2,500 seat venue, then there would certainly be more pressure to find a way to finish the project. But from what I saw today, why would they bother?

[Sader87]

It's a "chicken or the egg" argument though.... isn't it???

If the GTown students/alums/ whatevah subway alumni they have in the DC-area know the school isn't pushing the program....why should they bother???

[DFW HOYA]

As discussed in another thread, a men's soccer game was going on concurrently with the Lehigh game and that was 900 people that weren't going to the football game. But that's a distraction from the issue.

Game attendance comes down to providing a product people can invest in. No one under the age of 35 has a memory of a winning football team at Georgetown, and certainly not students, who are educated from day one that there are only two sports at Georgetown, men's basketball and everything else. Most alumni don't live in the area and those that do have to fight through narrow streets and a lack of parking to sit in a "facility" that is as lifeless as any in college football. It's not comfortable to sit on the temporary, weathered wooden and/or plastic seats in the MSF and wonder if there are better things to do in Washington on an October day--there are about 10,000 things more interesting to do on a Saturday in DC.

I'll quote from a blog post by Mark Cuban about filling an arena--it applies to PL football as well:


Not every team is up and coming...not every team only has to fill 7k seats. When a team is first turning the corner, fans tend to not trust it. They expect that their team will revert to their past . I know it drives everyone in pro sports crazy when their team finally does well and fans don’t immediately respond. It is easier to engage fans when the team is turning a corner and winning is new, but you have to work hard at selling the fun of coming to an arena. The more seats you have to sell, the harder you have to work. Fans want a reason to get out of the house and have fun. But they are not going to find you. You have to find them.

If your team finds itself struggling...you have to work harder than ever before to create value for your fans. It is during these times, when you can’t control what happens on the court, that you have to work hard to improve the game experience... You have to invest in things that are universally fun for your customers and prospects...

No team is going to go undefeated every year. You have to make sure that even during games that don’t go the way of the home team that your fans feel like you are doing all you can to entertain them. At the Mavs we spend a small fortune on entertaining videos and in game entertainment. From the Mavs Maniaacs to special half time shows, to Seats for Soldiers, we want our Mavs games to be special occasions. We NEVER cut corners on in game entertainment. In fact we probably spend more on in game video and entertainment than the rest of the NBA combined.


If you have a limited budget and the choice is between fun or anything else, choose fun every time.

So who among this thread has been to a Georgetown game? Does the word "fun" ever enter the conversation?

[Go Green]

So who among this thread has been to a Georgetown game? Does the word "fun" ever enter the conversation?

I go to at least one a year. Always fun!!!

Don't think you can get any closer to the action than MSF. Any closer, and you're standing on the sidelines.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

I go to at least one a year. Always fun!!!

Don't think you can get any closer to the action than MSF. Any closer, and you're standing on the sidelines.

Based on my experience at the MSF, you could easily stand on the sideline. Security, "structure", and waste desposal are not its strong points.....:D

[ace93]

So who among this thread has been to a Georgetown game? Does the word "fun" ever enter the conversation?

It is always fun to watch one's team win. That also is part of the reason your fans don't show.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

The location of the MSF is what makes it "fun" or "cool". I've been there twice, '04 and '10, and enjoyed both visits.

I did not get the Kohoe experience when Lehigh made the trip in 2001. On appearance alone that was at another level of bad. Especially with the worn out turf.....

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;2171290]As discussed in another thread, a men's soccer game was going on concurrently with the Lehigh game and that was 900 people that weren't going to the football game. But that's a distraction from the issue.

Game attendance comes down to providing a product people can invest in. No one under the age of 35 has a memory of a winning football team at Georgetown, and certainly not students, who are educated from day one that there are only two sports at Georgetown, men's basketball and everything else. Most alumni don't live in the area and those that do have to fight through narrow streets and a lack of parking to sit in a "facility" that is as lifeless as any in college football. It's not comfortable to sit on the temporary, weathered wooden and/or plastic seats in the MSF and wonder if there are better things to do in Washington on an October day--there are about 10,000 things more interesting to do on a Saturday in DC.

I'll quote from a blog post by Mark Cuban about filling an arena--it applies to PL football as well:



who among this thread has been to a Georgetown game? Does the word "fun" ever enter the conversation?[So /QUOTE]

Last Saturday was my fourth trip to MSF. The closeness to the field cannot be beat. If they just made it a bit more comfortable, and a bit bigger, it would be a great venue. "Cozy" comes to mind, and IF he students ever got behind the team, you can make a great deal of racket with the way the sound bounces off the surrounding buildings, for a real home field advantage.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;2171290]As discussed in another thread, a men's soccer game was going on concurrently with the Lehigh game and that was 900 people that weren't going to the football game. But that's a distraction from the issue.

Game attendance comes down to providing a product people can invest in. No one under the age of 35 has a memory of a winning football team at Georgetown, and certainly not students, who are educated from day one that there are only two sports at Georgetown, men's basketball and everything else. Most alumni don't live in the area and those that do have to fight through narrow streets and a lack of parking to sit in a "facility" that is as lifeless as any in college football. It's not comfortable to sit on the temporary, weathered wooden and/or plastic seats in the MSF and wonder if there are better things to do in Washington on an October day--there are about 10,000 things more interesting to do on a Saturday in DC.

I'll quote from a blog post by Mark Cuban about filling an arena--it applies to PL football as well:



who among this thread has been to a Georgetown game? Does the word "fun" ever enter the conversation?[So /QUOTE]

Last Saturday was my fourth trip to MSF. The closeness to the field cannot be beat. If they just made it a bit more comfortable, and a bit bigger, it would be a great venue. "Cozy" comes to mind, and IF he students ever got behind the team, you can make a great deal of racket with the way the sound bounces off the surrounding buildings, for a real home field advantage.

[PAllen]

I go to at least one a year. Always fun!!!

Don't think you can get any closer to the action than MSF. Any closer, and you're standing on the sidelines.

Good point. 2011 I actually stood on the sidelines (well, edge of the turf, but close enough) at about the 20 for much of the second half with my kids. Kehoe wasn't really any worse than the MSF from a fan experience. In fact, it had a nice view up the Potomac gorge from the stands. If soccer is going to outdraw Hoya fans 3 to 1, then either the admin isn't promoting FB (which they're not), or the students just don't care and the sport should be disbanded. Of course, with absolutely no gameday atmosphere, I can't really blame the students for not rolling out of bed to sit on a bunch of bleachers in what was forecast to be a cold rainy day just to watch their classmates lose yet again.

[Sader87]

GTown football is probably done in the PL after next year....it is what it is....they are probably either Pioneer bound or dropping the sport after next year.

[HoyaMetanoia]

GTown is football is probably done in the PL after next year....it is what it is....they are probably either Pioneer bound or dropping the sport after next year.

This is just totally unsupported by any evidence, and I'm one of the people who thinks the sport will be dropped eventually.

Will Georgetown leave the PL eventually? Probably. Will it ever join the Pioneer League? No. Never. Would put any amount of money on that.

[Sader87]

There's really no other "landing spot"....GTown can't compete in the PL without schollies.....Pioneer is the only answer to play the Ivies etc

[DFW HOYA]

GTown football is probably done in the PL after next year....it is what it is....they are probably either Pioneer bound or dropping the sport after next year.

What, did this post reappear from 2009? xbangx

[PAllen]

There's really no other "landing spot"....GTown can't compete in the PL without schollies.....Pioneer is the only answer to play the Ivies etc

I don't see how the Pioneer makes any financial sense for GU. Sure, they'd be competitive for now, their facility would be on par for that conference, and playing the Ivies would still be a probability. However, how does flying for league games in California, Florida, Iowa, Indiana, along with long road trips to NC, KY, and OH help the budget? That travel budget alone has to top $500K per year. Put that money into scholarships or facilities, and in a few years, you've got a respectable PL team. The admin has shown that they are not willing to do that, so my guess is that they will just hang on to the PL coat tails as long as the league lets them while putting absolutely nothing into the program. Then, a few years as an independent, and if that doesn't work, shut it down.

[DFW HOYA]

A point I've been trying to make (perhaps too much) is that the PL offers Georgetown only one path to competitiveness: 60 scholarships. The PL took the bait that Fordham set instead of building consensus on a scholarship plan that even Georgetown would have bought into--remember, scholarship athletics have never been anathema to Georgetown, but going from 0 to 60 is.

Putting aside an AI that essentially puts any Georgetown prospect under a 1350 SAT out of reach, what does 20 scholarships realistically buy them? Better athlrtes, and, well...last place. How about thirty? Probably the same. Forty? Probably a fifth place finish one out of five years but little else. It could spend $1.6 million and finish 2-9, or $4 million and potentially finish 3-8. With an investment of $550,000, or about 10 scholarships, Georgetown went from a soccer also-ran to a legitimate Top 20 team. That won't fly in I-AA football.

On the margins, talent matters. Teams that are only slightly off their numbers in full scholarship leagues pay a heavy price (URI, Savannah State, VMI). I've asked this before, and it bears repeating--what are the number of scholarships that Georgetown would have to commit to be a competitive PL team after 2016? Thanks to the 2012 decision, there appears to be only one answer.

[bison137]

A point I've been trying to make (perhaps too much) is that the PL offers Georgetown only one path to competitiveness: 60 scholarships. The PL took the bait that Fordham set instead of building consensus on a scholarship plan that even Georgetown would have bought into--remember, scholarship athletics have never been anathema to Georgetown, but going from 0 to 60 is.

Putting aside an AI that essentially puts any Georgetown prospect under a 1350 SAT out of reach, what does 20 scholarships realistically buy them? Better athlrtes, and, well...last place. How about thirty? Probably the same. Forty? Probably a fifth place finish one out of five years but little else. It could spend $1.6 million and finish 2-9, or $4 million and potentially finish 3-8. With an investment of $550,000, or about 10 scholarships, Georgetown went from a soccer also-ran to a legitimate Top 20 team. That won't fly in I-AA football.

On the margins, talent matters. Teams that are only slightly off their numbers in full scholarship leagues pay a heavy price (URI, Savannah State, VMI). I've asked this before, and it bears repeating--what are the number of scholarships that Georgetown would have to commit to be a competitive PL team after 2016? Thanks to the 2012 decision, there appears to be only one answer.



Do you think it would make much of a difference if the AI for Georgetown was lowered, say to be equivalent to the next-highest or even to the average of the other six schools? That is a change I would consider if I were the PL - if it would make a difference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On the margins, talent matters. Teams that are only slightly off their numbers in full scholarship leagues pay a heavy price (URI, Savannah State, VMI). I've asked this before, and it bears repeating--what are the number of scholarships that Georgetown would have to commit to be a competitive PL team after 2016? Thanks to the 2012 decision, there appears to be only one answer.

That depends on whether the Fordham's team this season is a once-in-a-generation team, or not. If we can expect Fordham 2014 every season from a Patriot League school, whether Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Fordham, et. al, then it's hard to escape the conclusion that G'Town will wither have to get scholarships, or move elsewhere. If, on the other hand, Fordham 2014 is a once-in-a-generation aberration and the PL champion most years will be good, but not Fordham 2014 good, then there's no reason that we shouldn't believe that G'Town can compete - if they start doing the same type of things Wagner did in 2012 to use more financial aid.

[Pard4Life]

The only things we only ever seem to talk about around here are Georgetown's program, the lack of an Ivy League playoff team, and scholarships. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only things we only ever seem to talk about around here are Georgetown's program, the lack of an Ivy League playoff team, and scholarships. xlolx

You forgot Frank Tavani's "offense"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd like to pause here and mention something about Fordham 2014 - Moorhead spent three years getting some underused star players from UConn he got to transfer to Fordham (Nebrich, Tebucky Jones, Jr.), got a superstar, Payton Award-caliber receiver through a scholarship (Ajala), had a great, scrappy holdover from the Masella years (Wetzel), and to that mix he used a scholarship to get a Freshman of the year candidate and 1,000 yard rusher (Chase Edmonds). Immensely to Moorhead's credit that he was able to make this happen at Fordham. But does that sound like something that can be replicated year in and year out?

IMVHO it is Edmonds' presence that puts this team out of the "really, really good" category and into the "all-time great" category. This is why I think Fordham's team this season is more in the "once in a generation" category rather than the "we expect the PL champion to be this good every year" category.

[PAllen]

Teams that are only slightly off their numbers in full scholarship leagues pay a heavy price (URI, Savannah State, VMI). I've asked this before, and it bears repeating--what are the number of scholarships that Georgetown would have to commit to be a competitive PL team after 2016? Thanks to the 2012 decision, there appears to be only one answer.

URI, Savannah St, and VMI have other issues, as does Georgetown. I honestly think that GU could be competitive with 20-40 schollies as long as it was accompanied by a commitment to the program by the administration. That includes finishing the generation long construction project that is the MSF as well as other facilities. Favorable aid packages (need based is fine) and some university and community wide promotion would be needed too. If Georgetown is going to continue to treat the football team the same way they treat a club ultimate frisbee team, then yes, it doesn't matter how many scholarships you throw at the problem.

[Sader87]

Fordham is very good this year but I'm not buying the "once in a generation" label (just yet anyway....if they make a run to Frisco, then maybe). Lest we forget, it's only been 11 years since Gate went to the FCS Final. Lehigh has had teams that have won a game or two in the playoffs in the last 15 or so years as well.

Not denigrating the Rams here, just trying to put them in perspective.

The whole 2014 Fordham (and PL) season was set-up (unintentionally) to be a runaway....Fordham ended up being very Sr-laden this year, the other PL teams are going through an awkward year of transitioning to full scholarship rostahs (halfway there) and Fordham's OOC (outside of Nova and Army) sked has been very underwhelming.

"Once in a generation" teams also don't lose games 50-6 no mattah how bizarre the circumstances.

[Fordham]

I appreciate the sentiment as well but think it will only be so if/when proven in the playoffs.

The thing that I don't think people appreciate enough about our D, since the O gets all of the press, is that we lost last year's PL DPOY and this year's pre-season All American and PL DPOY, Stephen Hodge, to a torn patella tendon for the season during camp. We also lost Adeyeye and Washington, two soph DL who played a ton as freshmen, for the season as well and another transfer who was expected to have an impact on the DL, son of Jet legend Joe Klecko, has been out with a back problem all year. If Hodge and/or those guys on the DL were here, our D would have been on par with our O and I think we could have really made a deep run. Not sure we can go THAT deep with a D like this once we go against the top MV or CAA squads (if we get there).

I also think that you guys are going to be surprised at how good your squads will be once things click after you have four scholarship classes together. I really do expect that there will be 3 - 4 PL squads each year that can compete with anyone in the country.

[PAllen]

"Once in a generation" teams also don't lose games 50-6 no mattah how bizarre the circumstances.

+1

[Sader87]

Getting back to GTown, I don't see how going PFL is not a bettah option for them if they continue to function undah their current model.

GTown essentially joined the PL to bring real (but not out-of-control) D1 football back on their campus with the added benefit of playing Ivy schools OOC in the process. This has basically worked for them (in the sense of being competitive, winning the occasional game or two) during the non-scholly PL-era of 2000-2012. Unfortunately for GTown, the landscape has changed in the PL with scholarships added.

However, the PFL basically offers GTown the same benefits that the PL circa 2000-2012 did i.e. D1 football on campus and OOC games with Ivy schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Edmonds was just added to the Walter Payton watch list, making it three Fordham players that have been on the Payton award list this season. (Ajala fell off the list in favor of Edmonds.) I don't even think 87 Holy Cross "evah" did that.

[Sader87]

Edmonds was just added to the Walter Payton watch list, making it three Fordham players that have been on the Payton award list this season. (Ajala fell off the list in favor of Edmonds.) I don't even think 87 Holy Cross "evah" did that.

We had guys on the Heisman list and in the Downtown Athletic Club....xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We had guys on the Heisman list and in the Downtown Athletic Club....xnodx

True! They were wicked good!

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

We had guys on the Heisman list and in the Downtown Athletic Club....xnodx

Some of the PL haters would love this. In '87 the PL had the Payton winner (first ever) in Kenny Gamble and a Heisman Finalist in Lockbaum.....

[Pard4Life]

Sorry Sader, 1987 doesn't count. Real football started in 1988.

[DFW HOYA]

The only things we only ever seem to talk about around here are Georgetown's program, the lack of an Ivy League playoff team, and scholarships. xlolx

Things that get too much discussion around here:

1. Scholarships.
2. Lehigh-Lafayette.
3. Georgetown can't/won't/doesn't compete.
4. Holy Cross shouldah been in the Big East.
5. Expanding with teams that don't want to be in the PL.
6. Frank Tavani.

Things that do not get enough discussion:

1. Recruiting.
2. Bucknell.
3. Declining game attendance in an age of media saturation
4. Long term scheduling.
5. Expanding with teams that want to be in the PL.
6. Dan Hunt.

[Sader87]

Interesting lists DFW....agree for the most part. In all honesty, I sometimes forget what board some of these discussions are on but the #3 in the "do not get enough" discussion has been talked to death on the HC board. The #4 on the same list was discussed at length recently on the FU board.

I think the #3 GTown discussion is beaten to death here because in many ways it goes to the heart of what exactly PL football is (or wants to be) moving forward.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me address:

1. Recruiting.
5. Expanding with teams that want to be in the PL.

You have to wonder if Richmond and maybe Villanova are taking a look at Fordham's success and saying, "gee, that Fordham team looks a lot like us. A PL football membership maybe aligns pretty well with what we're doing."

How does this link to recruiting? Well, I don't think Nova and Richmond want to join the PL to lose what they've got, so recruiting of great athletes across the board starts to happen. PL becomes a 9 or 10 team league with an at-large guaranteed every year. With the PL guaranteeing an at-large every year, recruiting improves even more.

Then JMU joins Conference USA, Delaware joins the A-10 and joins the PL in football, Towson and Elon join the Big South, and William & Mary joins the PL in all sports. Then America East takes over the remainder of CAA football. (Too soon?)

[Fordham]

Let me address:

1. Recruiting.
5. Expanding with teams that want to be in the PL.

You have to wonder if Richmond and maybe Villanova are taking a look at Fordham's success and saying, "gee, that Fordham team looks a lot like us. A PL football membership maybe aligns pretty well with what we're doing."

How does this link to recruiting? Well, I don't think Nova and Richmond want to join the PL to lose what they've got, so recruiting of great athletes across the board starts to happen. PL becomes a 9 or 10 team league with an at-large guaranteed every year. With the PL guaranteeing an at-large every year, recruiting improves even more.

Then JMU joins Conference USA, Delaware joins the A-10 and joins the PL in football, Towson and Elon join the Big South, and William & Mary joins the PL in all sports. Then America East takes over the remainder of CAA football. (Too soon?)

I don't think they're drawing any conclusions yet. As you've written elsewhere, if this is a Moorhead-driven anomaly, then there's nothing compelling there for them. If the next 3 - 5 years bring about a surge in overall league competitiveness, I think they may start thinking that there might be something here for them.

[Sader87]

I like the size of the league football-wise as is. I understand that the associate membahships of FU and GU make it a little shaky in terms of minimum numbahs of schools for an auto-bid etc.....but I'd hate to be in a league that had say 8 or 9 league games every year which would allow for very little flexibility in scheduling.

From what I've heard/read/seen with regards to recruiting (at HC anyway)...it seems like HC has done very well the last couple of years, getting kids they nevah would have if they didn't have scholarships...beating out other scholly FCS and occasionally FBS schools in some of these recruiting battles.

[LUHawker]

That depends on whether the Fordham's team this season is a once-in-a-generation team, or not. If we can expect Fordham 2014 every season from a Patriot League school, whether Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Fordham, et. al, then it's hard to escape the conclusion that G'Town will wither have to get scholarships, or move elsewhere. If, on the other hand, Fordham 2014 is a once-in-a-generation aberration and the PL champion most years will be good, but not Fordham 2014 good, then there's no reason that we shouldn't believe that G'Town can compete - if they start doing the same type of things Wagner did in 2012 to use more financial aid.

I think Fordham did some good fundamental things to improve their program, but I believe that they sort of "caught lightening in a bottle". Moorhead became head coach and brought with him Nebrich - no way Nebrich ends up at Fordham any other way. They probably also were able to pick up some schollie players that "may" have gone to other PL schools in those first couple of years when FU was giving schollies and the rest weren't. Overall, I think FU has raised their program level, but it has not suddenly established a juggernaut program. Without Nebrich, FU is very good, but not exceptional.

[ace93]

I think Fordham did some good fundamental things to improve their program, but I believe that they sort of "caught lightening in a bottle". Moorhead became head coach and brought with him Nebrich - no way Nebrich ends up at Fordham any other way. They probably also were able to pick up some schollie players that "may" have gone to other PL schools in those first couple of years when FU was giving schollies and the rest weren't. Overall, I think FU has raised their program level, but it has not suddenly established a juggernaut program. Without Nebrich, FU is very good, but not exceptional.

Agreed. Right now it is very lightning-in-a-bottle-esque. We have not even won a PL Championship yet (not that we could have last season, but we would not have anyway).

[heath]

Things that get too much discussion around here:

1. Scholarships.
2. Lehigh-Lafayette.
3. Georgetown can't/won't/doesn't compete.
4. Holy Cross shouldah been in the Big East.
5. Expanding with teams that don't want to be in the PL.
6. Frank Tavani.

Things that do not get enough discussion:

1. Recruiting.
2. Bucknell.
3. Declining game attendance in an age of media saturation
4. Long term scheduling.
5. Expanding with teams that want to be in the PL.
6. Dan Hunt.
Great post, Your #1s in both would only come from a GU fan.No schollies and can't recruit(really the same). Agree with all, but Dan Hunt=Mike London. Until Dan can recruit and win with his own players,I see a Mike London situation when he took over Richmond. It will take a few years to grade a new coach.

[Franks Tanks]

Great post, Your #1s in both would only come from a GU fan.No schollies and can't recruit(really the same). Agree with all, but Dan Hunt=Mike London. Until Dan can recruit and win with his own players,I see a Mike London situation when he took over Richmond. It will take a few years to grade a new coach.

How is it the same? Hunt was a loyal assistant at Gate for well over a decade before getting the top job. London hadn't coached at Richmond for 12 years when he took over for Clawson. Hunt was integral to Gate's prior success, while London had nothing to do with it.

Also how does London keep his job at UVA? He must have dirt on the AD.

[Model Citizen]

Would guess that the NEC needs Georgetown more than the Pioneer needs Georgetown. Enough to get into the NEC?

[BucBisonAtLarge]

The institution of scholarships in football brought football recruiting back in the line with recruiting in all other PL sports, where scholarships had already been, at least in theory. Scholarships also brought PL football recruiting back into the mainstream, in the D1 context. Talking about recruiting prior to scholarships was awkward. How do you mark National Signing Day when there is nothing to sign? Points to the programs that marked the day, though the actual mechanics of recruiting without scholarships was completely different.

From the recruiting discussions on the Bucknell Board, there's building momentum on fb recruiting, no doubt aided by this season's successes. It is as though we have begun participating in part of the larger D1 football culture previously deigned 'not PL', even as every other sport on campus competed freely in D1.

This is also a policy choice in Athletics. The League (at least the Core 5+Fordham) has opted to compete in football in a way not done by the Ivy and PFL schools. If we are going to have football, it seems that the schools have chosen to make it competitive at its chosen (FCS) level.

[Go...gate]

What's the controversy with Dan Hunt? He's doing fine. Give him a chance.

And I shake my head when the LC posters complain and complain about Tavani. He deserves better treatment. He inherited a bad situation and solidified the LC program at a critical time. He just took a team to the NCAA play-offs. He is fine representative of a top-tier college. What's the problem?

[Go...gate]

Would guess that the NEC needs Georgetown more than the Pioneer needs Georgetown. Enough to get into the NEC?

Does every school in the NEC give forty scholarships? If not, and GU wanted to leave the PL, they might be a better fit there.

[Go Lehigh TU owl]

What's the controversy with Dan Hunt? He's doing fine. Give him a chance.

And I shake my head when the LC posters complain and complain about Tavani. He deserves better treatment. He inherited a bad situation and solidified the LC program at a critical time. He just took a team to the NCAA play-offs. He is fine representative of a top-tier college. What's the problem?

I don't know about Tavani. His last playoff appearance prior to last year was 8 years ago and that team finished 6-6. I know they won the league last year but they were still a below average team. IMO, it was nothing more than being a "bid stealer" during conference tournament time in hoops. Plus, that "bad" institutional situation is well over a decade ago now. Times have drastically changed since then. From the facilities at Lafayette to the overall landscape of the league....

When you're headed for 5 straight losing seasons at a D1 school you are VERY lucky to still be employed. Even places like Nicholls State, VMI and Valpo can their coaches after a few years of ugliness. Also, if he loses to Lehigh this year that will be 6 losses in 7 years to their hated rival. I simply don't see how Lafayette can justify keeping him. When you lose more than you win overall and to your rival you need to be let go.

[Franks Tanks]

What's the controversy with Dan Hunt? He's doing fine. Give him a chance.

And I shake my head when the LC posters complain and complain about Tavani. He deserves better treatment. He inherited a bad situation and solidified the LC program at a critical time. He just took a team to the NCAA play-offs. He is fine representative of a top-tier college. What's the problem?

The Leopards have been poorly coached since Bob Heffner left (he was the real Head Coach). Frank has poor technical knowledge of the game, and has assembled an offensive staff that just isn't getting it done.

It has been 15 years since the study. We've had way above average facilities since 2006, and our football budget is up there with anyone in the league. Frank has run out of excuses and needs to look in the mirror. The team has underperformed for too long, and a change is long overdue.

[DatDude]

Fordham is very good this year but I'm not buying the "once in a generation" label (just yet anyway....if they make a run to Frisco, then maybe). Lest we forget, it's only been 11 years since Gate went to the FCS Final. Lehigh has had teams that have won a game or two in the playoffs in the last 15 or so years as well.

Not denigrating the Rams here, just trying to put them in perspective.

The whole 2014 Fordham (and PL) season was set-up (unintentionally) to be a runaway....Fordham ended up being very Sr-laden this year, the other PL teams are going through an awkward year of transitioning to full scholarship rostahs (halfway there) and Fordham's OOC (outside of Nova and Army) sked has been very underwhelming.

"Once in a generation" teams also don't lose games 50-6 no mattah how bizarre the circumstances. Finally someone makes some sense about this Fordham team.....xbowx

[DatDude]

We've had way above average facilities since 2006, and our football budget is up there with anyone in the league. Agreed. That fieldhouse is nice! The stadium is too! Great facilities at LC. Should be a top PL team with the academics and facilities like that. LU needs to get on board with their facilities, or kids might pick LC over LU!

[bison137]

The institution of scholarships in football brought football recruiting back in the line with recruiting in all other PL sports, where scholarships had already been, at least in theory.


I can only wish that Bucknell had scholarships in the other men's sports (other than hoops).

[ccd494]

Why was Colgate allowed to offer hockey scholarships for all those years? Were they not offering them until the PL started offering hoops schollys?

(I believe HC hockey was non-scholarship until recently)

[RichH2]

Why was Colgate allowed to offer hockey scholarships for all those years? Were they not offering them until the PL started offering hoops schollys?

(I believe HC hockey was non-scholarship until recently)
Hockey not a PL sport.

[Bill]

Why was Colgate allowed to offer hockey scholarships for all those years? Were they not offering them until the PL started offering hoops schollys?

(I believe HC hockey was non-scholarship until recently)

As Rich stated...also, same deal with Lehigh wrestling. Once Lehigh woke up from its ridiculous self-imposed non-scholarship wrestling gulag, they too have been offering full rides again for almost 20 years now!

[PAllen]

Let me address:

1. Recruiting.
5. Expanding with teams that want to be in the PL.

You have to wonder if Richmond and maybe Villanova are taking a look at Fordham's success and saying, "gee, that Fordham team looks a lot like us. A PL football membership maybe aligns pretty well with what we're doing."

How does this link to recruiting? Well, I don't think Nova and Richmond want to join the PL to lose what they've got, so recruiting of great athletes across the board starts to happen. PL becomes a 9 or 10 team league with an at-large guaranteed every year. With the PL guaranteeing an at-large every year, recruiting improves even more.

Then JMU joins Conference USA, Delaware joins the A-10 and joins the PL in football, Towson and Elon join the Big South, and William & Mary joins the PL in all sports. Then America East takes over the remainder of CAA football. (Too soon?)

What the heck are you smoking?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What the heck are you smoking?

There is considerable tongue in cheek in that post.

[PAllen]

There is considerable tongue in cheek in that post.

I figured as much.

[ngineer]

As Rich stated...also, same deal with Lehigh wrestling. Once Lehigh woke up from its ridiculous self-imposed non-scholarship wrestling gulag, they too have been offering full rides again for almost 20 years now!

And with very good success. Not only are we getting 'blue chip' recruits, but their academic quality has risen as well. The GPA standing of the wrestling team over the years has been impressive. This year's team will be starting 8 underclassmen, including three freshmen. Preseason ranked #15 with two wrestlers ranked # 2 and 3 and two others in the top 20.

[ccd494]

Hockey not a PL sport.

That makes sense. I didn't know if there was a blanket ban ("If you are a PL member, you can't offer ANY athletic scholarships in ANY sport!").

And, Colgate may have been non-scholly for all I know. Non-scholly Union just won a national title.

[Pinnum]

I am curious as to the reasons people don't think the PFL is an option.

Let's be honest.

The PFL was designed for D1 schools that operate under a D3 structure. This is how Georgetown operates their program.

It is really a question of peers. While Georgetown does recruit against PL programs and Ivys, they recruit just as much against NESCAC programs. The NESCAC programs have the same aid structure. Georgetown refuses to offer merit aid, and not for financial reasons but rather due to their academic opportunity mission and model. This is fine. The PFL, though more expensive with three PFL road games a year, will require no increase in aid to be competitive. Even if with Morehead or Dayton offering merit aid, most kids given the option, would go to Georgetown. Georgetown will remain just as competitive, and may actually see an increase in recruiting when they start to get some wins.

Georgetown has scheduling relationships with PFL, and Ivy programs, these would all likely continue. Even PL non-conference scheduling would be possible. If scheduling the Ivys is important, then the PFL is already scheduling a lot of non-conference games with the Ivys. Even the distance doesn't seem to be much of an issue as Princeton flew to San Diego for a non-conference game.

Georgetown is a national brand. Thee school attracts kids from all over the country. When a kid is deciding between Columbia and Georgetown or Georgetown and (D3) Amherst the location of games during their kid's career can be important. If the kid is from Southern California, Ohio, Florida, or wherever, the fact that the team will likely play at least one game within the region during their kid's career can be a significant factor. It is almost as if the school is cover the cost of travel for the parents to see the kid compete.

With Georgetown added to the PFL, the conference goes to 12 teams. The conference will still have a bid to the NCAA. This past season between PL and PFL teams, Georgetown played 8 games. The PFL plays 8 conference games so it would leave the same number of slots open for Ivy non-conference options. Additionally, Georgetown would likely be a program in the top half of the conference regularly. The better PFL teams are typically about mid-level PL quality. This year Georgetown would be around the 4th best team in the PFL.

The PFL, in my opinion, is not only a viable option but is the best option.

[PAllen]

I am curious as to the reasons people don't think the PFL is an option.

Let's be honest.

The PFL was designed for D1 schools that operate under a D3 structure. This is how Georgetown operates their program.

It is really a question of peers. While Georgetown does recruit against PL programs and Ivys, they recruit just as much against NESCAC programs. The NESCAC programs have the same aid structure. Georgetown refuses to offer merit aid, and not for financial reasons but rather due to their academic opportunity mission and model. This is fine. The PFL, though more expensive with three PFL road games a year, will require no increase in aid to be competitive. Even if with Morehead or Dayton offering merit aid, most kids given the option, would go to Georgetown. Georgetown will remain just as competitive, and may actually see an increase in recruiting when they start to get some wins.

Georgetown has scheduling relationships with PFL, and Ivy programs, these would all likely continue. Even PL non-conference scheduling would be possible. If scheduling the Ivys is important, then the PFL is already scheduling a lot of non-conference games with the Ivys. Even the distance doesn't seem to be much of an issue as Princeton flew to San Diego for a non-conference game.

Georgetown is a national brand. Thee school attracts kids from all over the country. When a kid is deciding between Columbia and Georgetown or Georgetown and (D3) Amherst the location of games during their kid's career can be important. If the kid is from Southern California, Ohio, Florida, or wherever, the fact that the team will likely play at least one game within the region during their kid's career can be a significant factor. It is almost as if the school is cover the cost of travel for the parents to see the kid compete.

With Georgetown added to the PFL, the conference goes to 12 teams. The conference will still have a bid to the NCAA. This past season between PL and PFL teams, Georgetown played 8 games. The PFL plays 8 conference games so it would leave the same number of slots open for Ivy non-conference options. Additionally, Georgetown would likely be a program in the top half of the conference regularly. The better PFL teams are typically about mid-level PL quality. This year Georgetown would be around the 4th best team in the PFL.

The PFL, in my opinion, is not only a viable option but is the best option.

My question with the PFL is the travel cost. If the university isn't willing to commit that level of money to build the program, why would they want to commit to spending it on jet fuel? If the PFL was more regional I would agree with Georgetown being a perfect fit. As far as recruiting against the Ivies, give me a break. Georgetown is a very good school, vs an equal financial offer from any one of the ivies, and a kid is going Ivy League. Georgetown's problem with recruiting is that they want to compete with the Ivies, but can't; they are competing with the PL, but refuse to do so; they are able to compete with DIII schools.

Drop the Dayton Rule and the hoyas are playing in Div III in a heartbeat. At this point, I say let them. It's not like their basketball program is going to notice a difference.

[Sandlapper Spike]

There is considerable tongue in cheek in that post.

Yes, everyone knows the Patriot League is holding out for Davidson football.

[Model Citizen]

The PFL was designed for D1 schools that operate under a D3 structure. This is how Georgetown operates their program.

Geogetown gives (x) equivalencies. D-III allows no equivalencies.

So this is not how they operate their program.

[Pinnum]

My question with the PFL is the travel cost. If the university isn't willing to commit that level of money to build the program, why would they want to commit to spending it on jet fuel? If the PFL was more regional I would agree with Georgetown being a perfect fit. As far as recruiting against the Ivies, give me a break. Georgetown is a very good school, vs an equal financial offer from any one of the ivies, and a kid is going Ivy League. Georgetown's problem with recruiting is that they want to compete with the Ivies, but can't; they are competing with the PL, but refuse to do so; they are able to compete with DIII schools.

Drop the Dayton Rule and the hoyas are playing in Div III in a heartbeat. At this point, I say let them. It's not like their basketball program is going to notice a difference.

I have known plenty of kids that have turned down acceptance from Ivy league schools to go to Georgetown, just as I have with PFL member Davidson or some PL programs. There is a lot of overlap in recruiting between Ivy, PL, NESCAC, UAA schools, some PFL schools. This is the same with the general student population too.

In fact, here is the average institutional aid awarded to all students in the general population.



School
Average institutional grant aid


Columbia University in the City of New York
$36,083


Cornell University
$33,006


Dartmouth College
$36,051


Georgetown University
$30,244


Harvard University
$39,754


Princeton University
$32,754


University of Pennsylvania
$33,557


Yale University
$38,397



Georgetown's football operating budget is the same as PFL member Davidson and Georgetown's total football expenditures are the same as PFL member Campbell. Flying from DC, with multiple major airport options, would likely be less expensive than other PFL programs located near regional airports.

What would cost Georgetown more: offering five (or ten) tuition waivers for football, or to cover one or two flights for the team? Out of those two options, which would adhere to their educational aid principles?

[BucBisonAtLarge]

My question with the PFL is the travel cost. If the university isn't willing to commit that level of money to build the program, why would they want to commit to spending it on jet fuel? If the PFL was more regional I would agree with Georgetown being a perfect fit. As far as recruiting against the Ivies, give me a break. Georgetown is a very good school, vs an equal financial offer from any one of the ivies, and a kid is going Ivy League. Georgetown's problem with recruiting is that they want to compete with the Ivies, but can't; they are competing with the PL, but refuse to do so; they are able to compete with DIII schools.

Drop the Dayton Rule and the hoyas are playing in Div III in a heartbeat. At this point, I say let them. It's not like their basketball program is going to notice a difference.


There are a variety of cost management measures in the PFL- travel roster limits and travel cost-sharing, if I understand it correctly.

[Pinnum]

Geogetown gives (x) equivalencies. D-III allows no equivalencies.

So this is not how they operate their program.

The NCAA allows D3 schools to award aid to student-athletes up to a variance of 4% when compared to that of the general student body. As a result, Georgetown's minimal 'equivalencies' are actually right about in compliance with D3 .

[Model Citizen]

My question with the PFL is the travel cost. If the university isn't willing to commit that level of money to build the program, why would they want to commit to spending it on jet fuel?

Jet fuel is a lot cheaper than Georgetown tuition.

PFL travel squads are limited to 45. Leave the band at home and you can make your four trips for $150,000. Butler spends considerably less, because they are within easy driving distance to three PFL schools.

How many football scholarships does $150,000 buy at Georgetown?

[Pinnum]

How many football scholarships does $150,000 buy at Georgetown?

Total cost of attendance now sits at about $47k a year so... about three.

[Pinnum]

Total cost of attendance now sits at about $47k a year so... about three.


Sorry... that was tuition. $65k is total cost of attendance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Flying from DC, with multiple major airport options, would likely be less expensive than other PFL programs located near regional airports.

I think every PFL team is less than an hour and a half away from an airport. Even Morehead is an hour away from Lexington, Kentucky, which has nonstop commercial flights to and from DC.

It's more about how similar Georgetown is with Morehead State and other memebers of the PFL institutionally, i.e., not at all. Georgetown has lots more in common with Holy Cross and Fordham than they do Jacksonville or Marist.

[Pinnum]

I think every PFL team is less than an hour and a half away from an airport. Even Morehead is an hour away from Lexington, Kentucky, which has nonstop commercial flights to and from DC.

It's more about how similar Georgetown is with Morehead State and other memebers of the PFL institutionally, i.e., not at all. Georgetown has lots more in common with Holy Cross and Fordham than they do Jacksonville or Marist.

Besides that whole football thing...

[Model Citizen]

lol

[Bill]

The NCAA allows D3 schools to award aid to student-athletes up to a variance of 4% when compared to that of the general student body. As a result, Georgetown's minimal 'equivalencies' are actually right about in compliance with D3 .

Hold on there - that's not a fair comparison. Yes, your statement about DIII variance is true - but none of that award can be because of or related to athletics!

[Pinnum]

Hold on there - that's not a fair comparison. Yes, your statement about DIII variance is true - but none of that award can be because of or related to athletics!

More accurately: Awards can not be contingent on participating in athletics. Which simply means aid can't change if an athlete decides not to play a sport any longer.

It is fairly common that the all-state players or D1 transfers end up with 'leadership' grants or other merit aid that is in no way connected to their ability but the football (or hockey, or basketball, etc.) coach recommended them for consideration.

The 4% is meant to allow flexibility for D3 programs with minimal support staffs making it hard to constantly ensure that each student is awarded aid in compliance. While it is suppose to be a margin for error, the top D3 programs know exactly how much they can direct where to remain in compliance. A few star players at a skill position can make a big difference.

It is only when you're doing things like offering Canadian scholarships to recruit Canadian students but don't have anyone other than the men's ice hockey coach going to Canada to recruit students and tell them about the scholarships, as was the case with Buffalo State, that you end up with violations.

[DFW HOYA]

It's always interesting to read those that claim Georgetown has "minimal" or no equivalencies when the budget would suggest otherwise.

Georgetown's 2013-14 budget was $1.68 million, just about half that of Bucknell at $3.34 million. How many equivalencies was Bucknell running? More than "minimal", I'd suggest. Or compare the $1,683,686 budget to zero-equivalency programs at Butler ($787,938) or Drake ($915,737) and there's something more than "minimal" in this discussion. In fact, Georgetown's budget is only about $500K behind the NEC schools. Are they Division III schools, too?

[Bill]

More accurately: Awards can not be contingent on participating in athletics. Which simply means aid can't change if an athlete decides not to play a sport any longer.

It is fairly common that the all-state players or D1 transfers end up with 'leadership' grants or other merit aid that is in no way connected to their ability but the football (or hockey, or basketball, etc.) coach recommended them for consideration.



Wait a minute...that's still not fair. An student's aid is completely independent of athletics, period. Your statement implies that an athlete can get a better/different aid package, and that the aid package can't change if he no longer participates....that's not true. His participation in athletics was never a consideration in the aid equation in the first place.

As for the D-1 players and transfers...I can't speak for all of the state school conferences out there, but several that I know of have to report their financial aid distribution by sport to their conference each year... it's no longer as easy as you say it is to cheat, because everyone else can see exactly where your 4% error is supposedly occurring! Perhaps what you suggest occurs at a few state conferences, but I can name three solid private school D3 conferences that aren't cheating in that way!

[HoyaMetanoia]

My question with the PFL is the travel cost. If the university isn't willing to commit that level of money to build the program, why would they want to commit to spending it on jet fuel? If the PFL was more regional I would agree with Georgetown being a perfect fit. As far as recruiting against the Ivies, give me a break. Georgetown is a very good school, vs an equal financial offer from any one of the ivies, and a kid is going Ivy League. Georgetown's problem with recruiting is that they want to compete with the Ivies, but can't; they are competing with the PL, but refuse to do so; they are able to compete with DIII schools.

Drop the Dayton Rule and the hoyas are playing in Div III in a heartbeat. At this point, I say let them. It's not like their basketball program is going to notice a difference.

You're dead wrong about recruiting against the Ivies. Have you seen the cross-referenced admissions data? Georgetown gets more than 50% of the kids that are deciding between Georgetown and Cornell, as well as Georgetown and Dartmouth, and above 40% of all the kids deciding between Georgetown and Penn/Brown. Columbia is lower, and HYP are lower than Columbia.

You guys can hypothesize about the PFL all you want, but the schools aren't peers, the travel cost isn't enticing, and the competition isn't some guarantee of success that would outweigh the other two considerations. The administration as regularly emphasized that their idea of Georgetown football centers around competing with peer institutions in the classroom and on the playing field. They don't really care about wins or losses (or else Kevin Kelly would've been fired well before he could jump ship in order to drag down the Ball State defense on his sinking ship), so long as the program isn't an embarrassment off the field.

So any talk about the PFL is a useless exercise, unless you're just doing it to hear yourselves talk. It will never happen.

[van]

You're dead wrong about recruiting against the Ivies. Have you seen the cross-referenced admissions data? Georgetown gets more than 50% of the kids that are deciding between Georgetown and Cornell, as well as Georgetown and Dartmouth, and above 40% of all the kids deciding between Georgetown and Penn/Brown. Columbia is lower, and HYP are lower than Columbia.

You guys can hypothesize about the PFL all you want, but the schools aren't peers, the travel cost isn't enticing, and the competition isn't some guarantee of success that would outweigh the other two considerations. The administration as regularly emphasized that their idea of Georgetown football centers around competing with peer institutions in the classroom and on the playing field. They don't really care about wins or losses (or else Kevin Kelly would've been fired well before he could jump ship in order to drag down the Ball State defense on his sinking ship), so long as the program isn't an embarrassment off the field.

So any talk about the PFL is a useless exercise, unless you're just doing it to hear yourselves talk. It will never happen.

+1, finally some realism

[Go Green]

You're dead wrong about recruiting against the Ivies. Have you seen the cross-referenced admissions data? Georgetown gets more than 50% of the kids that are deciding between Georgetown and Cornell, as well as Georgetown and Dartmouth, and above 40% of all the kids deciding between Georgetown and Penn/Brown. Columbia is lower, and HYP are lower than Columbia.



I read PAllen's comments as recruiting against the Ivies within the context of football, rather than the student body generally.

I have no doubt that Georgetown is able to convince its share of the cross-admits that DC is more fun than Hanover or Ithaca. And if a kid buys that, then they're probably better off going to Georgetown.

[The Boogie Down]

You guys can hypothesize about the PFL all you want, but the schools aren't peers, the travel cost isn't enticing, and the competition isn't some guarantee of success that would outweigh the other two considerations. The administration as regularly emphasized that their idea of Georgetown football centers around competing with peer institutions in the classroom and on the playing field. They don't really care about wins or losses (or else Kevin Kelly would've been fired well before he could jump ship in order to drag down the Ball State defense on his sinking ship), so long as the program isn't an embarrassment off the field.

Off the field they might represent the school well, but on the field this was about as embarrassing as it gets.

[Go...gate]

There comes a time when theorizing is irrelevant in the face of facts.

Georgetown has some decisions to make.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Off the field they might represent the school well, but on the field this was about as embarrassing as it gets.

As long as that isn't every game, the program will exist in the PL.

But good for you guys, I guess.

[Go...gate]

Nice win by the Hoyas yesterday.

[ngineer]

I am impressed with the fight Georgetown showed all year. Despite the losing record they were 'in' a lot of their games due to their defense. The depth issue and ability to recruit with their facilities will be a hinderance, but I think they are getting as much as they can right now our of their program based on the commitment by the school.

[Fordham]

I am impressed with the fight Georgetown showed all year. Despite the losing record they were 'in' a lot of their games due to their defense. The depth issue and ability to recruit with their facilities will be a hinderance, but I think they are getting as much as they can right now our of their program based on the commitment by the school.
I agree. It's impressive what that new staff was able to get out of the team given the losses as well as the overall challenges the program has.

[jimbo65]

Nice win by the Hoyas yesterday.
I would go further and call it a miraculous win having attended their "non" game versus Fordham.